Or maybe the Texas Republicans are just trying to gerrymander the state's districts so more Republicans get elected. Bet that doesn't happen in other states!
Except all of these! (List quoted from the article.)
Apparent Gerrymandering in Federal Legislative Districts in the U.S.
You wrote: "[Patrick] explains that the redistricting is really an attempt to keep ethnic minority voters from having political influence proportionate to their numbers."
The implication is that the Texas Republicans are re-districting with the primary intent of disenfranchising black voters. However, there is no reason to believe there is any racial motivation. Every state where the government is controlled by one party sees the ruling party trying to redistrict to increase the number of house seats their party controls. Black voters are being lumped into super-Dem districts the same way all other Democrats are being lumped into super-Dem districts. The appearance of racial motivation is difficult to avoid, given that blacks vote something like 90% democratic.
Thus raising the charge of racism is an obvious red herring. I hate gerrymandering and would support any reasonable measure that would blunt it -- it makes all of our votes count for less, not just those of black people.
-Magik
PS, I really find that quote distasteful because it is so obviously an attempt to smear the Republicans with an unwarranted charge of racism. I'm surprised we don't hear Bush accused of being racist when he tries to cut taxes for the rich. It's the same argument.
The appearance of racial motivation is difficult to avoid, given that blacks vote something like 90% democratic.
Yes, one of those odd factoids, having nothing to do with the fact that Republicans opposed letting blacks vote. You may say (correctly, even) that this is about party and not race, but here we are, in 2003, and Republicans are still doing things to diminish the voting power of minority voters. It hardly matters why.
That's crazy! What do you mean, "Republicans opposed letting blacks vote". That calls for a serious history lesson for which I refer you to any number of books on the Civil War. (Remember Lincoln?)
You confuse covariance with cause. This is important. Is it actually your argument that Democrats can gerrymander, but Republicans can't? It also therefore must be your argument that any relative tax cut for the rich is racist. This same logic would cause one to oppose any attempt to restrain violent crime, which also happens to covary with race. And we must provide US subsidies to members of all foreign nations. After all, the majority of people outside the US are "minorities"!
And we can't vote against a black nominee for the supreme court, because we are therefore racist... hmm... I guess that the Democrats are racist! Conspiring to maintain the glass ceiling over the heads of African-Americans! Boy, you've really got something here, Ogged!
You are either being inflammatory (which I salute) or you're sadly confused. There is no evidence that race is a motivating factor in Texas. Every reason to believe that the Republicans are just seeking power, using exactly the same tactics used by the Democrats. You have not one iota of proof. Not the least smidge indicating that they are targeting on the basis of anything other than party affiliation. Yet you trot out the racist argument.
That is irresponsible and illogical, and your engagement in such demagoguery chips away at the fabric of the nation. You ought to be ashamed.
Hypothetically: "These blacks and hispanics are all going to vote Democrat, we can't let that happen."
What I said is that the covariance/cause distinction "hardly matters" where race and voting are concerned. When party power dictates actions that would be harmful to a race to which that party has been recently and vociferously antagonistic, the proper course is to forebear. Odd that this is only an issue for the Republicans.
Now you're dancing, shuffling away from your original point. If so, I might start to agree with you. Yes, there are historical racial injustices in this country. Yes, there are contemporary racial injustices. Yes, the Republicans ought to be responsive to them. I agree.
But you blatantly, nakedly condemned the Republicans as racist for taking an action which A) is not logically provable to be racist; and B) is by every dimension of logic a non-racially-motivated action.
You bring up hispanics. Hm. Don't George W. & Jeb play to the hispanic crowd? Yes! (And no, what you think they should do to earn the hispanic vote doesn't matter -- what matters is that they strive to earn the hispanic vote, with some success). This perfectly refutes your charge of racism.
Republicans & democrats, in aggregate, are both powermongers first, principled second (or worse). The Texas redistricting case is a simple case of powermongering having only secondarily to do with race. IT IS NOT RACISM.
You can't prove otherwise. You can't even use meaningful evidence to imply it. Power games explain it 100%.
Your attempts to spin this issue into racism are precisely the same evil you decry in Karl Rove. If you don't admit it, it can only be because your are deceiving yourself or willingly attempting to deceive the rest of us.
A minor point away from the larger argument above..
I left Texas 3 years ago, and am not current on this issue. But, one thing that's probably necessary to understanding this particular issue of redistricting is that the Republicans in Texas are seeking to redress some serious home-cooked gerrymandering performed by a legislature controlled by Democrats since the Reconstruction. The district maps that were in place in 2000 (don't think they could have changed since then) were absolutely egregious.
Right. I'm sure.
Or maybe the Texas Republicans are just trying to gerrymander the state's districts so more Republicans get elected. Bet that doesn't happen in other states!
Except all of these! (List quoted from the article.)
Apparent Gerrymandering in Federal Legislative Districts in the U.S.
Alabama Districts 6 and 7
Arizona District 3
Florida Districts 17, 18, and 23
Illinois Districts 4 and 7
Massachusetts Districts 3, 4, and 9
New Jersey Districts 6 and 7
New York Districts 7, 12, and 14
North Carolina All 12 Legislative Districts
Ohio Districts 2 and 11
Pennsylvania District 6
South Carolina Districts 1, 2, and 6
Tennessee Districts 3 and 4
While searching for that link I found this long but interesting item about gerrymandering with maps, math and more fun stuff.
-Magik
Posted by Magik | Link to this comment | 09- 8-03 9:47 PM
All true, but what, exactly, is your point?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-03 9:50 PM
You wrote: "[Patrick] explains that the redistricting is really an attempt to keep ethnic minority voters from having political influence proportionate to their numbers."
The implication is that the Texas Republicans are re-districting with the primary intent of disenfranchising black voters. However, there is no reason to believe there is any racial motivation. Every state where the government is controlled by one party sees the ruling party trying to redistrict to increase the number of house seats their party controls. Black voters are being lumped into super-Dem districts the same way all other Democrats are being lumped into super-Dem districts. The appearance of racial motivation is difficult to avoid, given that blacks vote something like 90% democratic.
Thus raising the charge of racism is an obvious red herring. I hate gerrymandering and would support any reasonable measure that would blunt it -- it makes all of our votes count for less, not just those of black people.
-Magik
PS, I really find that quote distasteful because it is so obviously an attempt to smear the Republicans with an unwarranted charge of racism. I'm surprised we don't hear Bush accused of being racist when he tries to cut taxes for the rich. It's the same argument.
Posted by Magik | Link to this comment | 09- 8-03 10:04 PM
The appearance of racial motivation is difficult to avoid, given that blacks vote something like 90% democratic.
Yes, one of those odd factoids, having nothing to do with the fact that Republicans opposed letting blacks vote. You may say (correctly, even) that this is about party and not race, but here we are, in 2003, and Republicans are still doing things to diminish the voting power of minority voters. It hardly matters why.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 8-03 10:18 PM
That's crazy! What do you mean, "Republicans opposed letting blacks vote". That calls for a serious history lesson for which I refer you to any number of books on the Civil War. (Remember Lincoln?)
You confuse covariance with cause. This is important. Is it actually your argument that Democrats can gerrymander, but Republicans can't? It also therefore must be your argument that any relative tax cut for the rich is racist. This same logic would cause one to oppose any attempt to restrain violent crime, which also happens to covary with race. And we must provide US subsidies to members of all foreign nations. After all, the majority of people outside the US are "minorities"!
And we can't vote against a black nominee for the supreme court, because we are therefore racist... hmm... I guess that the Democrats are racist! Conspiring to maintain the glass ceiling over the heads of African-Americans! Boy, you've really got something here, Ogged!
You are either being inflammatory (which I salute) or you're sadly confused. There is no evidence that race is a motivating factor in Texas. Every reason to believe that the Republicans are just seeking power, using exactly the same tactics used by the Democrats. You have not one iota of proof. Not the least smidge indicating that they are targeting on the basis of anything other than party affiliation. Yet you trot out the racist argument.
That is irresponsible and illogical, and your engagement in such demagoguery chips away at the fabric of the nation. You ought to be ashamed.
-Magik
Posted by Magik | Link to this comment | 09- 9-03 12:51 AM
Hypothetically: "These blacks and hispanics are all going to vote Democrat, we can't let that happen."
What I said is that the covariance/cause distinction "hardly matters" where race and voting are concerned. When party power dictates actions that would be harmful to a race to which that party has been recently and vociferously antagonistic, the proper course is to forebear. Odd that this is only an issue for the Republicans.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 9-03 7:52 AM
Now you're dancing, shuffling away from your original point. If so, I might start to agree with you. Yes, there are historical racial injustices in this country. Yes, there are contemporary racial injustices. Yes, the Republicans ought to be responsive to them. I agree.
But you blatantly, nakedly condemned the Republicans as racist for taking an action which A) is not logically provable to be racist; and B) is by every dimension of logic a non-racially-motivated action.
You bring up hispanics. Hm. Don't George W. & Jeb play to the hispanic crowd? Yes! (And no, what you think they should do to earn the hispanic vote doesn't matter -- what matters is that they strive to earn the hispanic vote, with some success). This perfectly refutes your charge of racism.
Republicans & democrats, in aggregate, are both powermongers first, principled second (or worse). The Texas redistricting case is a simple case of powermongering having only secondarily to do with race. IT IS NOT RACISM.
You can't prove otherwise. You can't even use meaningful evidence to imply it. Power games explain it 100%.
Your attempts to spin this issue into racism are precisely the same evil you decry in Karl Rove. If you don't admit it, it can only be because your are deceiving yourself or willingly attempting to deceive the rest of us.
-Magik
Posted by Magik | Link to this comment | 09-11-03 1:57 AM
A minor point away from the larger argument above..
I left Texas 3 years ago, and am not current on this issue. But, one thing that's probably necessary to understanding this particular issue of redistricting is that the Republicans in Texas are seeking to redress some serious home-cooked gerrymandering performed by a legislature controlled by Democrats since the Reconstruction. The district maps that were in place in 2000 (don't think they could have changed since then) were absolutely egregious.
Keith Johnson
Posted by Keith Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-17-03 12:30 AM