I'm going to have a go at the "you're taking this too far" line. Those who are genuinely surprised that a military force would resort to torture (leaving aside the question of how far up this goes) when the going got treacherous and frustrating are being naive. Those who think that the US (not US citizens, or military personnel acting as individuals, but the US collectively, however this works) hasn't ever engaged in widespread human rights abuses are similarly naive. The loss of an undeserved reputation is a bad thing, strategically and politically, but it doesn't change things in the somewhat deeper sense-- I'm tempted to say 'metaphysical' but that never helps-- you've gestured toward.
If we think that credibility on human rights requires a clean record, there can be no states with credibility. If it requires less, the US still has a shot. Maybe not the best shot, but there you go.
Is that crazy?
You're right about this being worse than wanton killing. Rage and anger-responses I can recognize as my own; the desire to put someone on a leash is something else entirely.
the desire to put someone on a leash is something else entirely.
That's actually the heart of what I'm getting at, not the overall cleanliness of our record. The (well) known prior examples of American brutality were still, primarily, illustrations of American power. Abu Ghraib seems primarily an illustration of American decadence. That decadence, I think, is what undermines our credibility, not the simple fact that we tortured.
"America was the exemplar of the possibility of a rights respecting people"
I think you have been watching too much American TV. You know, the same American TV that chose not to show images of American soldiers parading Iraqi troops naked through the streets in May a YEAR ago (2003), in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Images that were shown around the world.
Seriously, I have many friends abroad and spent some time studying in Europe and later working there in the 70's. I think your perception that the US is some "exemplar" is at best dated. US domestic terrorism against blacks, native americans. reproductive care clinics, gay people, labor activists, etc. is reported in other countries, as is our government's steady repeal of the Bill of Rights.
In the past 30 years, Europeans (French and Germans especially) have named the far-right for what it is, confronted it, and so far contained it. In the US this has not happened -- we have a bad case of "Right" blindness - and the phalangist Right has steadily taken over.
The country known around the world as an exemplar?? That's easy: Canada.
It's possible I've really botched making this point. Let me try it another way. People are well aware of the harm the U.S. has done around the world, but I think Americans were still seen as somehow lacking malice, or, if you like, free of the "human stain" of base nastiness: more like a rambunctious dog than a wolf. That's one part of what I was trying to say. The other is that, whatever the U.S. did outside its borders, people still thought of America for Americans as a magical place, and *even that* is undermined by the decadence of the tortures at Abu Ghraib.
This isn't about the jingoism of "we're the greatest country on earth." If anything, I'd say Americans don't understand just how much other people want to be here, or be like the U.S.
By the way, that "rights respecting people" was deliberately not "rights respecting government."
I'm going to have a go at the "you're taking this too far" line. Those who are genuinely surprised that a military force would resort to torture (leaving aside the question of how far up this goes) when the going got treacherous and frustrating are being naive. Those who think that the US (not US citizens, or military personnel acting as individuals, but the US collectively, however this works) hasn't ever engaged in widespread human rights abuses are similarly naive. The loss of an undeserved reputation is a bad thing, strategically and politically, but it doesn't change things in the somewhat deeper sense-- I'm tempted to say 'metaphysical' but that never helps-- you've gestured toward.
If we think that credibility on human rights requires a clean record, there can be no states with credibility. If it requires less, the US still has a shot. Maybe not the best shot, but there you go.
Is that crazy?
You're right about this being worse than wanton killing. Rage and anger-responses I can recognize as my own; the desire to put someone on a leash is something else entirely.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 05-10-04 11:42 AM
the desire to put someone on a leash is something else entirely.
That's actually the heart of what I'm getting at, not the overall cleanliness of our record. The (well) known prior examples of American brutality were still, primarily, illustrations of American power. Abu Ghraib seems primarily an illustration of American decadence. That decadence, I think, is what undermines our credibility, not the simple fact that we tortured.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-10-04 11:51 AM
"America was the exemplar of the possibility of a rights respecting people."
It was? Maybe I read too many lefty blogs.
Posted by Matthew McIrvin | Link to this comment | 05-12-04 6:49 AM
"America was the exemplar of the possibility of a rights respecting people"
I think you have been watching too much American TV. You know, the same American TV that chose not to show images of American soldiers parading Iraqi troops naked through the streets in May a YEAR ago (2003), in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Images that were shown around the world.
Seriously, I have many friends abroad and spent some time studying in Europe and later working there in the 70's. I think your perception that the US is some "exemplar" is at best dated. US domestic terrorism against blacks, native americans. reproductive care clinics, gay people, labor activists, etc. is reported in other countries, as is our government's steady repeal of the Bill of Rights.
In the past 30 years, Europeans (French and Germans especially) have named the far-right for what it is, confronted it, and so far contained it. In the US this has not happened -- we have a bad case of "Right" blindness - and the phalangist Right has steadily taken over.
The country known around the world as an exemplar?? That's easy: Canada.
Posted by Michael Connolly | Link to this comment | 05-12-04 8:53 AM
It's possible I've really botched making this point. Let me try it another way. People are well aware of the harm the U.S. has done around the world, but I think Americans were still seen as somehow lacking malice, or, if you like, free of the "human stain" of base nastiness: more like a rambunctious dog than a wolf. That's one part of what I was trying to say. The other is that, whatever the U.S. did outside its borders, people still thought of America for Americans as a magical place, and *even that* is undermined by the decadence of the tortures at Abu Ghraib.
This isn't about the jingoism of "we're the greatest country on earth." If anything, I'd say Americans don't understand just how much other people want to be here, or be like the U.S.
By the way, that "rights respecting people" was deliberately not "rights respecting government."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-12-04 9:33 AM