Kerry is really missing the opportunity to distinguish between rhetoric and reality. It seems odd to me that he keeps trying to shift the subject away from the debacle that is Iraq, rather than hitting it hard at every opportunity. Except for the point about "more casualties in July/August" etc. But now we're talking about police funding....
I just had a flashback -- Animal House. Remember that speech where (Otter)? defends his frat house by arguing that an attack on his fraternity was an attack on the American way of life. This is just surreal.
Bush is panicking. Starting to stammer, especially on key words like "American" and "so long as I remain the president." Good for Kerry saying succinctly, three countries is not a grand coalition. Bush's continued defensiveness about how he knows world leaders, he reads the papers, he watches the news on tv, is really coming across as shockingly amatuerish. IMHO. But I'm not exactly an impartial observer...
Yes, finally Kerry is hitting the point about truth vs. rhetoric. Academic theory about defining "truth" aside, this is an effective rhetorical strategy on his part.
I'm hogging the comments. I'm sorry, it's just that Mr. B. has forbidden me from talking and I am one of those people who has to yell at the tv....
Yes, but he's recovering in term of presentation, by focusing on the "little people" thing. Let's see how Kerry handles it...
Good. "I know what it means to lose people in combat." Long pause. The pause is key. Kerry, too, is slowing his presentation on this question, conveying emotion. His point about the outcome honoring the troops is well said, a good sound bite.
Unfortunately, he undermines the seriousness of this answer by flogging his stupid website. This wasn't the moment. Shit.
I keep expecting Bush to do something weird. He looks like he's right on the verge of sticking his tongue out. Bush also keeps on repeating "it's hard work" - no kidding! I get that kind of whining from my students all the time.
Bush's namedropping is amusing. Very telling in terms of how he (and his dad, for that matter) govern--the old boys. Not strategy, just buddies in the back room. Of course, that's irrelevant in terms of the debate, but it is entertaining me....
I'd really like to see Kerry point out that we've gone from having the world's greatest sympathy on 9/11 to being th object of the world's hatred. When Kerry talks, it is clear that Bush audioanimatronic. I keep hoping Ken Jennings will buzz in.
I'm watching on PBS, and they just showed Bush from behind--he's crouching. I just can't believe that his defensiveness isn't going to undermine him to the viewers.
I'm totally having the reaction that Kerry is the student who has done his homework, and Bush is the little whiny bastard who's trying to tell you that he deserves an A.
OMG. "Of course I know that Osama bin Laden attacked us. I know that." He is squirming. There is no way he is winning this debate. I wonder how much of the distraction work of the campaign (Swift boat etc.) is being undermined here.
No doubt. I was shocked last time around too, that people thought Bush won debates with Gore. Obviously I'm not a good candidate for "typical voter"....
One thing Bush is doing well, though it drives me nuts, is defining things as he goes along. It comes across as "just plain folks," which helps him, and potentially makes Kerry seem like a smarty pants, which is what happened to Gore last time. But Kerry isn't Gore. He's comfortable speaking in public.
I'm not exactly an objective observer, but it seems pretty clear to me that Kerry is winning this debate. Maybe not a homerun, but a definite double or triple. One thing I'm impressed with is that Kerry isn't pandering...playing down to the "ordinary" folk. I was listening to Jon Stewart on the radio today and he was talking about this -- that it would be a mistake for Kerry to try and dumb himself down to appeal to the average Joe. He's right -- Bush already has that ground covered. It's hard to imagine someone more mediocre.
Oh god, I just do not think the "allies" thing is a winning strategy with American voters. No one cares if other countries sanction Iran.
And Kerry's not really answering the question about Darfur, either. The point about overextending the troops is an answer to an earlier question, damnit.
Bush wins the question on Darfur, if only because he actually said "Darfur" in the answer. Though he mispronounced it. But he's coming across with that caring stuff, and sounding like he knows what he's talking about. Then again, the voters don't care about Darfur.
Ok, good. I wish he'd spent more time and energy on the point that Bush isn't acknowledging reality, and that certainty can get you in trouble. That's a good answer to the character question. Stick with it.
That's it! Bush keeps pounding that he's consistent -- Kerry's nailing him on that. What's that old phrase, "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"?
Ok. Bush is on record saying that he doesn't think Putin's reaction to Chechnya is okay, that we need checks and balances. Now it's Kerry's turn to skewer him on the Patriot Act and the outsourcing of torture and Abu Ghraib...
OMG, he just referred to Putin as "Vladimir." And we're back on the "personal relationships" thing. Vlad is his good buddy. Christ, how ironic that he's going on about democracy in conjunction with demonstrating his own elitism....
I'm afraid that the "strong alliances" thing is just not a winner for Kerry, in terms of public opinion. His closing statement is weak.
Bush's point about staying on the offense and fighting overseas so that the terrorists don't come here is better. "I believe in the transformational power of liberty" is a good phrase (even if it's not true). Ooh, and he quoted the bible, sort of. Plus his delivery is better. Bush wins the closing statement.
Yeah, I was really dreading the debate. I swore that I wouldn't watch it because I was fully prepared to be depressed by Kerry's wooden delivery and Bush's smirking "plain old folks" routine. Kerry really delivered. A couple of things he could have done better, but overall really good. By the way, bitchphd -- what's the phd in?
Ooh, sorry, my field is one of the few things I don't talk about online.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this gets read over the next day or so. I'd like Kerry to do better next time, really go on the attack, but we'll see.
Yeah, and when he did Talk of the Nation it was really good too. I'm sorry, but Juan Williams just isn't nearly as good. Ray had a real skill for managing the time, sounding respectful of the wingnuts without letting them reframe the debate, and drawing brilliant analysis from his guests.
Mark Shields just said that Bush seemed angry a lot, but since they decided not to film reaction shots, the voters didn't get to see it. I don't know, though, if I think that's a bad thing or a good one.
David Brooks says that Kerry hasn't reframed the issues, which I think is true. But I don't think that's bad. I think the issues favor Kerry--which is why the Bush campaign is all about Vietnam.
Ooh, the final word was Brooks reiterating the annoying response to the Gore/Bush debates, that since everyone thinks Bush is a moron, as long as he doesn't actually start crying on stage, he wins. Gah.
Ak. My two cents (and sorry to miss it with you all): this was a solid Kerry and a poor Bush. Kerry started with some uncertainty, but he got better, and Bush kept repeating the same phrases. He had nothing to say (as expected) and it was moderately clear that he had nothing to say (as hoped for). I have to think this changed a few minds, because Kerry looked competent, smart, and presidential. (Of course, I agree with some of the quibbles-- the alliances, etc.-- but it's good to keep in mind that Kerry isn't trying to convince people who think of the UN as the ZOG.
AAAhhh!!! He's starting off on the defensive!!! Please no!!!!
Ok, breathe. And watch.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:05 PM
Not you. I meant Kerry. Ok, shutting up now.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:06 PM
Yes, thank you Jim, for reiterating the Osama bin Laden vs. Saddam Husseain point....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:15 PM
"We're going to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of..."
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:17 PM
people who don't have them?
(Sorry, the original comment was cut off)
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:19 PM
Kerry is really missing the opportunity to distinguish between rhetoric and reality. It seems odd to me that he keeps trying to shift the subject away from the debacle that is Iraq, rather than hitting it hard at every opportunity. Except for the point about "more casualties in July/August" etc. But now we're talking about police funding....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:22 PM
Y'all see this??
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:24 PM
Kerry has got Bush on the defensive now about the tax cut... good job, K.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:24 PM
Ben, I think that's the story Atrios posted earlier today. ABC has since taken it down.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:26 PM
Bush's defensiveness on "what a president does" is really telling. I wonder how that's gonna read tomorrow.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:30 PM
Agreed. He keeps resorting to the "dissent is treason" bit.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:31 PM
I just had a flashback -- Animal House. Remember that speech where (Otter)? defends his frat house by arguing that an attack on his fraternity was an attack on the American way of life. This is just surreal.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:36 PM
Bush is panicking. Starting to stammer, especially on key words like "American" and "so long as I remain the president." Good for Kerry saying succinctly, three countries is not a grand coalition. Bush's continued defensiveness about how he knows world leaders, he reads the papers, he watches the news on tv, is really coming across as shockingly amatuerish. IMHO. But I'm not exactly an impartial observer...
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:36 PM
Yes, finally Kerry is hitting the point about truth vs. rhetoric. Academic theory about defining "truth" aside, this is an effective rhetorical strategy on his part.
I'm hogging the comments. I'm sorry, it's just that Mr. B. has forbidden me from talking and I am one of those people who has to yell at the tv....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:38 PM
I half expected to him to blurt out -- yeah, I'm meeting with world leaders everyday - every morning at 9:00! Yeah, yeah...THAT'S the ticket! What BS
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:39 PM
Hey, comment away.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:39 PM
And now we see the weakness of Bush's "dissent is treason" approach. Kerry can legitimately point out that he has way more experience than Bush does.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:41 PM
Nice clear statement by Kerry, I think, about the idea between the right way and the wrong way to pursue Saddam Hussein.
I don't think it's a wash, purely in terms of their affect. Bush is extremely flustered, and Kerry is gaining in confidence.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:44 PM
Shrub's dripping with concern about the troops -- so why is he cutting their benefits? What a cute little story he's telling
Posted by dan johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:45 PM
Yes, but he's recovering in term of presentation, by focusing on the "little people" thing. Let's see how Kerry handles it...
Good. "I know what it means to lose people in combat." Long pause. The pause is key. Kerry, too, is slowing his presentation on this question, conveying emotion. His point about the outcome honoring the troops is well said, a good sound bite.
Unfortunately, he undermines the seriousness of this answer by flogging his stupid website. This wasn't the moment. Shit.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:47 PM
Shrub's going for his plain old folks schtick. It's been his major strategy, and the only way he can win any points. Isn't that right, Jim?
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:47 PM
Hey - Kerry just nailed that one! If you break it, you own it. That's a nice summary of his position.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:49 PM
I keep expecting Bush to do something weird. He looks like he's right on the verge of sticking his tongue out. Bush also keeps on repeating "it's hard work" - no kidding! I get that kind of whining from my students all the time.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:52 PM
Bush's namedropping is amusing. Very telling in terms of how he (and his dad, for that matter) govern--the old boys. Not strategy, just buddies in the back room. Of course, that's irrelevant in terms of the debate, but it is entertaining me....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:52 PM
LOL Dan, yeah, he does sound a lot like a defensive student, doesn't he....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:53 PM
Bush is still trying to make up for the "quiz" he failed during the 2000 campaign when he didn't know the names of many foreign leaders.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:53 PM
I'd really like to see Kerry point out that we've gone from having the world's greatest sympathy on 9/11 to being th object of the world's hatred. When Kerry talks, it is clear that Bush audioanimatronic. I keep hoping Ken Jennings will buzz in.
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:54 PM
I'm watching on PBS, and they just showed Bush from behind--he's crouching. I just can't believe that his defensiveness isn't going to undermine him to the viewers.
I'm totally having the reaction that Kerry is the student who has done his homework, and Bush is the little whiny bastard who's trying to tell you that he deserves an A.
OMG. "Of course I know that Osama bin Laden attacked us. I know that." He is squirming. There is no way he is winning this debate. I wonder how much of the distraction work of the campaign (Swift boat etc.) is being undermined here.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 7:58 PM
I don't know b, if the debate keeps going like this, I think you're going to be shocked by the post debate reactions. I still think it's a wash.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:00 PM
No doubt. I was shocked last time around too, that people thought Bush won debates with Gore. Obviously I'm not a good candidate for "typical voter"....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:03 PM
nuclear mullah = noo-kyoo-lahr moo-lah
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:05 PM
One thing Bush is doing well, though it drives me nuts, is defining things as he goes along. It comes across as "just plain folks," which helps him, and potentially makes Kerry seem like a smarty pants, which is what happened to Gore last time. But Kerry isn't Gore. He's comfortable speaking in public.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:06 PM
I'm not exactly an objective observer, but it seems pretty clear to me that Kerry is winning this debate. Maybe not a homerun, but a definite double or triple. One thing I'm impressed with is that Kerry isn't pandering...playing down to the "ordinary" folk. I was listening to Jon Stewart on the radio today and he was talking about this -- that it would be a mistake for Kerry to try and dumb himself down to appeal to the average Joe. He's right -- Bush already has that ground covered. It's hard to imagine someone more mediocre.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:07 PM
Oh god, I just do not think the "allies" thing is a winning strategy with American voters. No one cares if other countries sanction Iran.
And Kerry's not really answering the question about Darfur, either. The point about overextending the troops is an answer to an earlier question, damnit.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:09 PM
Bush wins the question on Darfur, if only because he actually said "Darfur" in the answer. Though he mispronounced it. But he's coming across with that caring stuff, and sounding like he knows what he's talking about. Then again, the voters don't care about Darfur.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:11 PM
If Bush says "send the wrong signals to our troops" one more fucking time I am going to fucking kill him.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:12 PM
He won't hold it against him that he went to Yale? What the hell was that? Some lame attempt to portray Kerry as an elitest?
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:13 PM
No, it was Bush's own elitism escaping.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:14 PM
They both went to Yale. It's just a joke.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:14 PM
Ok, good. I wish he'd spent more time and energy on the point that Bush isn't acknowledging reality, and that certainty can get you in trouble. That's a good answer to the character question. Stick with it.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:15 PM
(Um, BitchPhd, I think you should note that you were using hyperbole. They're touchy about that sort of thing.)
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:15 PM
That's it! Bush keeps pounding that he's consistent -- Kerry's nailing him on that. What's that old phrase, "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"?
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:15 PM
Right. I'm speaking metaphorically only. Like the way I would say I'm gonna kill my own kid if he makes me read the Arthur book one more time.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:16 PM
Petty consistency.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:21 PM
(And I'm not watching the debates--no tv and all--can one of you high-powered pundits tell me what the ICC is? I'm guessing not "Intel C Compiler".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:21 PM
Gotta go and put the kids to bed....but I'm walking away pretty good. Good night all!
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:22 PM
I thought it was "foolish consistency."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:22 PM
Ok. Bush is on record saying that he doesn't think Putin's reaction to Chechnya is okay, that we need checks and balances. Now it's Kerry's turn to skewer him on the Patriot Act and the outsourcing of torture and Abu Ghraib...
OMG, he just referred to Putin as "Vladimir." And we're back on the "personal relationships" thing. Vlad is his good buddy. Christ, how ironic that he's going on about democracy in conjunction with demonstrating his own elitism....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:23 PM
International Criminal Court.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:23 PM
Dan, you're such a good parent. I've plunked my kid in front of a video upstairs....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:24 PM
"The issue is what you do about it." With a little tinkering, that could be a good soundbite for Kerry for the rest of the campaign.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:26 PM
Ogged, you're right about "foolish".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:26 PM
Not such a good parent, because I'm still here. Is it my imagination or did Kerry just bitch-slap Bush? Cool!
Oh well, the debate's ending anyway.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:26 PM
Yup. That's the right phrase: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:28 PM
I'm afraid that the "strong alliances" thing is just not a winner for Kerry, in terms of public opinion. His closing statement is weak.
Bush's point about staying on the offense and fighting overseas so that the terrorists don't come here is better. "I believe in the transformational power of liberty" is a good phrase (even if it's not true). Ooh, and he quoted the bible, sort of. Plus his delivery is better. Bush wins the closing statement.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:30 PM
Bush is doing a good job on his closing. He must have spent a long time memorizing it.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:30 PM
So, Ogged, was that so bad? It was fun! Thanks!
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:31 PM
It was fun! But stressful! Thanks all!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:34 PM
Yeah, I was really dreading the debate. I swore that I wouldn't watch it because I was fully prepared to be depressed by Kerry's wooden delivery and Bush's smirking "plain old folks" routine. Kerry really delivered. A couple of things he could have done better, but overall really good. By the way, bitchphd -- what's the phd in?
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:35 PM
Ooh, sorry, my field is one of the few things I don't talk about online.
It's gonna be interesting to see how this gets read over the next day or so. I'd like Kerry to do better next time, really go on the attack, but we'll see.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:38 PM
Pharyngula just did a funny.
Posted by Prometheus | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:40 PM
Sorry - didn't mean to pry. Just curious about a fellow "fud". Good night all.
Posted by Dan Johnson | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:40 PM
PBS seems to be saying they both did a decent job too. Can I just say how much I love Ray Suarez?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:40 PM
It's not prying, it's a perfectly natural question. I'm just paranoid.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:42 PM
Ray Suarez! I used to watch him on public tv in Chicago. He is very good.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:43 PM
Yeah, and when he did Talk of the Nation it was really good too. I'm sorry, but Juan Williams just isn't nearly as good. Ray had a real skill for managing the time, sounding respectful of the wingnuts without letting them reframe the debate, and drawing brilliant analysis from his guests.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:48 PM
Man, I hated Juan Williams on TOTN. It seems to me that, oddly, he doesn't listen well.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:50 PM
Mark Shields just said that Bush seemed angry a lot, but since they decided not to film reaction shots, the voters didn't get to see it. I don't know, though, if I think that's a bad thing or a good one.
David Brooks says that Kerry hasn't reframed the issues, which I think is true. But I don't think that's bad. I think the issues favor Kerry--which is why the Bush campaign is all about Vietnam.
Ooh, the final word was Brooks reiterating the annoying response to the Gore/Bush debates, that since everyone thinks Bush is a moron, as long as he doesn't actually start crying on stage, he wins. Gah.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:55 PM
No, I can't agree with you. Juan is my boyfriend, I'll hear nothing against him.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:56 PM
Oops, DUH. I mean Ray. I agree with you about Juan, totally.
God, I'm just brain dead. And I have to finish a grant proposal tonight b/c I need the dean's signature on it tomorrow. Fuck.
Ok, I'm off to do my job now. G'night. Tell me what the Martians said tomorrow.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:57 PM
Juan Williams is a practicing cannibal, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:57 PM
Thanks for playing!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 8:58 PM
Here's the real truth about this first debate:
In this first debate, all Kerry had to do was to be seen as the President's equal ... to appear on TV debating Bush on an equals basis.
That happened. No matter what else, it was a HUGE victory for Kerry.
Any debate points Kerry scored, in addition to just showing up on the same stage with Bush, was pure gravy.
Posted by Hank Fox | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 10:15 PM
Ak. My two cents (and sorry to miss it with you all): this was a solid Kerry and a poor Bush. Kerry started with some uncertainty, but he got better, and Bush kept repeating the same phrases. He had nothing to say (as expected) and it was moderately clear that he had nothing to say (as hoped for). I have to think this changed a few minds, because Kerry looked competent, smart, and presidential. (Of course, I agree with some of the quibbles-- the alliances, etc.-- but it's good to keep in mind that Kerry isn't trying to convince people who think of the UN as the ZOG.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-04 11:23 PM