At least you're not trying to buy goggles here in Japan.
Not only the eyelash thing, but the bridge of my Anglo-Saxon nose pushes the goggles up and keeps them from, y'know, actually keeping water away from my eyes or anything.
Is a flip turn something you do when you are swimming laps? For a second I thought maybe you were learning to roll a kayak, too. I just tried a noseplug for the first time the other day and, lo, it worked just fine on my Jewish nose. Why are we the ones who get caricaturized?!
If Iranians controlled the secret world government, you can be sure that our noses would be subject to caricature as well.
Then get ready for lots of caricaturing in your future. You're not fooling anyone. We know you're an important cog in the Vast Persian Conspiracy, big nose.
(By the way, in China "big nose" is a common epithet for all Westerners.)
Ah, but so far as I can tell they basically mean "European" (and their progeny) when they say "big nose". Based on what my students told me, I think it's more the sharpness/length of European noses than the actual mass that they're talking about.
Are Belgians famed for the smallness of their noses?
Interesting. I thought, if you go West from China, you run right into Iran, land of big noses. Belgium was just my generic European country (sorry Belgians!).
Nope on the mayonnaise at least, the Japanese are crazy for it. As in eat-it-with-a-spoon crazy. At least the considerable number of Japanese exchange students I knew back in undergrad were.
I don't know about cheese in Japan, but while I was in China (1995 to 2000) it was very hard if not impossible to come by except in large cities with a significant expat population. In those cities what was available was very very expensive. Finding decent bread was also a challenge.
Extrapolating from my China experience, one of the obvious things it's hard to shop for are clothes, and especially shoes, of any size larger than way too small. Especially for women.
There was one market in Shanghai though that specialized in pilfered / diverted / bootleg export clothes (i.e. stuff that should have been sent to the US and Europe) where you could find "normal" sizes, but the selection was very hit or miss. That and you ended up bumping into other Westerners wearing the exact same shirt as you far too often.
Oh and about the "big nose" equals "Westerner" thing, "Westerner" was my translation. I should have said "European" or "whitey". There's no "Go west, find big noses" sense to the epithet, I don't think. While we're on epithets, another common one for honkoloids, especially in south China, translates basically to "ghost face".
Is Iran known as the Land of Big Noses to its neighbors? I mean, I know having a big nose is a caricature for the people of the whole region, but is Iran's kettle particularly black in that category?
Which reminds me, the term "honky" is supposedly originally derived from the overly nasal tone of white voices. I can't remember where I learned this, but it was apparently confirmed for me by a (black) co-worker. Upon hearing Michael Stipe singing "Losing My Religion" on the radio, she exclaimed "Wow, that man sure does put the honk in honky!"
The cars thing is from here. As for what brought it up in the context of this thread, well, I had just seen it in the drop-down menu thing in the address bar and I was reminded of it, so I included it, because it's too remarkable not to.
Bryan, there's really no way your nose is bigger than mine.
And Mitch, no, I don't think Iranians are known for having big noses, even for Middle-Easterners. But we certainly think of ourselves as big-nose having.
>what else is it difficult for an Anglo to shop for in Japan?
A little late answering, but in my case, everything.
("Big" comes from being 6'7", meaning clothing in general is out of the question.)
One thing I didn't know about my own phenotype until shopping for a motorcycle helmet brought it to my attention is that we Anglos generally have long skinny heads, whereas Japanese heads are basically round. Even the really big helmets that are loose everywhere else press uncomfortably against my forehead, and my nose gets smashed against the faceplate.
About the big nose thing, Japanese usually refer to whites as having "tall" noses, and this is considered a desirable thing. Like Mitch Mills said, length, not mass.
The cheese situation has improved substantially in the 14 years I've been here.
Don't get me started on the pizzas...
Pardon the threadjack, but I was wondering about "Iranian". All the Iranians I know here refer to themselves as "Persian". Is this standard everywhere now or is it just a defense against the Japanese anti-Iranian bias?
It cracks me up to hear that the "Persian / Iranian" split exists in Japan too. There are usually two reasons that people use "Persian" instead of "Iranian." First, (as you say) they hope you won't figure out the association with Iran, that crazy terrorist country in the Middle-East. Second, it's the preferred term of people sympathetic to the late, deposed Shah (and his son), who seem to think it more fully conjures the majesty of Persia's ancient kings.
Some weirdness with immigration laws brought a lot of Iranians to Japan on work visas in the 80s and early 90s, and then when the jobs dried up, some got hired by the Yakuza to run petty scams and such, so a prejudice of "Iranian=two-bit criminal" developed. I always assumed the "Persian" thing was to avoid being associated with that stereotype. I didn't know about the monarchist thing.
Standing out in a crowd definitely has its advantages, and it's great for the serotonin levels if you can convince yourself that they're staring because of your devastating good looks rather than your height.
About the big nose thing, Japanese usually refer to whites as having "tall" noses, and this is considered a desirable thing. Like Mitch Mills said, length, not mass.
I'm now reminded of an incident that illustrated this for me (it wasn't the only one though). A (Chinese) friend of mine had just gotten new glasses, and I complimented him on them.
But he said he didn't like them that much, they looked too much like Jiang Zemin's (meaning they had great big platter-like lenses, the bulk of which go down well below his eyes, see e.g. here.). He said the reason for this is that he needed his cheeks to support his glasses as his nose was too flat to do the job. Then he said, "You Westerners are lucky, with your big noses. You can do so much with them!"
The key thing besides the general flatness is that the bridge of most Chinese noses stops a lot lower than that of most European-types, i.e. it doesn't really extend up into the forebrow, but ends between the eyes. So their noses are a lot shorter in vertical length than the average honkey's honker.
And though I translated it as "big nose", the character for "big" can mean tall or long or similar things too. The same character is used for "The Great Wall of China", and in that case it's pretty clear they're stressing the length too. When Nixon went to China he tried to make a pun, saying something like "It truly is a great wall." Translated into Chinese it basically came out "That wall shore is long, ain't it?"
Oh, and since threadjacking is all the rage these days, the Great Wall is not visible from space, or even from very high up. Snopes has a good run down on this myth. It used to say so in Chinese textbooks, but that may be changing.
At least you're not trying to buy goggles here in Japan.
Not only the eyelash thing, but the bridge of my Anglo-Saxon nose pushes the goggles up and keeps them from, y'know, actually keeping water away from my eyes or anything.
Posted by Big Ben | Link to this comment | 11-18-04 8:50 PM
Is a flip turn something you do when you are swimming laps? For a second I thought maybe you were learning to roll a kayak, too. I just tried a noseplug for the first time the other day and, lo, it worked just fine on my Jewish nose. Why are we the ones who get caricaturized?!
Posted by Danielle | Link to this comment | 11-18-04 10:04 PM
Yes, for swimming laps.
If Iranians controlled the secret world government, you can be sure that our noses would be subject to caricature as well.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-18-04 10:11 PM
I wish someone would hand me one of those reins of secret world government.
But then, I have to say that, or the Protocol heads would come after me.
Posted by Danielle | Link to this comment | 11-18-04 10:16 PM
If Iranians controlled the secret world government, you can be sure that our noses would be subject to caricature as well.
Then get ready for lots of caricaturing in your future. You're not fooling anyone. We know you're an important cog in the Vast Persian Conspiracy, big nose.
(By the way, in China "big nose" is a common epithet for all Westerners.)
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 8:17 AM
Well, it's not exactly Belgium to the West of China.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 8:57 AM
Ah, but so far as I can tell they basically mean "European" (and their progeny) when they say "big nose". Based on what my students told me, I think it's more the sharpness/length of European noses than the actual mass that they're talking about.
Are Belgians famed for the smallness of their noses?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 10:12 AM
Interesting. I thought, if you go West from China, you run right into Iran, land of big noses. Belgium was just my generic European country (sorry Belgians!).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 10:21 AM
Big Ben, I negelected your comment, but I'm really curious: what else is it difficult to shop for for an Anglo in Japan?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 11:04 AM
Cripe, I really need some sleep. Big Ben, what else is it difficult for an Anglo to shop for in Japan?
Thanks.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 11:07 AM
Mayonnaise and string cheese?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 11:30 AM
Mayonnaise and string cheese?
Nope on the mayonnaise at least, the Japanese are crazy for it. As in eat-it-with-a-spoon crazy. At least the considerable number of Japanese exchange students I knew back in undergrad were.
I don't know about cheese in Japan, but while I was in China (1995 to 2000) it was very hard if not impossible to come by except in large cities with a significant expat population. In those cities what was available was very very expensive. Finding decent bread was also a challenge.
Extrapolating from my China experience, one of the obvious things it's hard to shop for are clothes, and especially shoes, of any size larger than way too small. Especially for women.
There was one market in Shanghai though that specialized in pilfered / diverted / bootleg export clothes (i.e. stuff that should have been sent to the US and Europe) where you could find "normal" sizes, but the selection was very hit or miss. That and you ended up bumping into other Westerners wearing the exact same shirt as you far too often.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 12:36 PM
Oh and about the "big nose" equals "Westerner" thing, "Westerner" was my translation. I should have said "European" or "whitey". There's no "Go west, find big noses" sense to the epithet, I don't think. While we're on epithets, another common one for honkoloids, especially in south China, translates basically to "ghost face".
Is Iran known as the Land of Big Noses to its neighbors? I mean, I know having a big nose is a caricature for the people of the whole region, but is Iran's kettle particularly black in that category?
Which reminds me, the term "honky" is supposedly originally derived from the overly nasal tone of white voices. I can't remember where I learned this, but it was apparently confirmed for me by a (black) co-worker. Upon hearing Michael Stipe singing "Losing My Religion" on the radio, she exclaimed "Wow, that man sure does put the honk in honky!"
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 12:50 PM
A comparison of life in China, Japan and New Jersey.
How to have sex with a car (seriously).
I understand mayo finds its way onto pizza in Japan.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 1:09 PM
Wow, Ben, that comparison is great. Brings back lots of memories. How did you find it?
As for the sex with a car thing, um, what brought that up?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 2:29 PM
It was on metafiter in September.
The cars thing is from here. As for what brought it up in the context of this thread, well, I had just seen it in the drop-down menu thing in the address bar and I was reminded of it, so I included it, because it's too remarkable not to.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 2:40 PM
hah.
every iranian i know has a smaller nose than me and i'm danish. you people are pathetic! (but in a totally non-judgemental way, nasal shrimp)
this message brought to you by a man with a man's nose.
Posted by bryan | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 3:45 PM
Bryan, there's really no way your nose is bigger than mine.
And Mitch, no, I don't think Iranians are known for having big noses, even for Middle-Easterners. But we certainly think of ourselves as big-nose having.
Thanks for the cool info on "honky," by the way.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-19-04 3:53 PM
>what else is it difficult for an Anglo to shop for in Japan?
A little late answering, but in my case, everything.
("Big" comes from being 6'7", meaning clothing in general is out of the question.)
One thing I didn't know about my own phenotype until shopping for a motorcycle helmet brought it to my attention is that we Anglos generally have long skinny heads, whereas Japanese heads are basically round. Even the really big helmets that are loose everywhere else press uncomfortably against my forehead, and my nose gets smashed against the faceplate.
About the big nose thing, Japanese usually refer to whites as having "tall" noses, and this is considered a desirable thing. Like Mitch Mills said, length, not mass.
The cheese situation has improved substantially in the 14 years I've been here.
Don't get me started on the pizzas...
Pardon the threadjack, but I was wondering about "Iranian". All the Iranians I know here refer to themselves as "Persian". Is this standard everywhere now or is it just a defense against the Japanese anti-Iranian bias?
Posted by Big Ben | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 6:48 AM
Holy shit, a 6'7" naked guy loose in Japan!
Seriously though, you must really stand out, yes?
It cracks me up to hear that the "Persian / Iranian" split exists in Japan too. There are usually two reasons that people use "Persian" instead of "Iranian." First, (as you say) they hope you won't figure out the association with Iran, that crazy terrorist country in the Middle-East. Second, it's the preferred term of people sympathetic to the late, deposed Shah (and his son), who seem to think it more fully conjures the majesty of Persia's ancient kings.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 10:13 AM
Some weirdness with immigration laws brought a lot of Iranians to Japan on work visas in the 80s and early 90s, and then when the jobs dried up, some got hired by the Yakuza to run petty scams and such, so a prejudice of "Iranian=two-bit criminal" developed. I always assumed the "Persian" thing was to avoid being associated with that stereotype. I didn't know about the monarchist thing.
Standing out in a crowd definitely has its advantages, and it's great for the serotonin levels if you can convince yourself that they're staring because of your devastating good looks rather than your height.
Posted by Big Ben | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 11:32 AM
About the big nose thing, Japanese usually refer to whites as having "tall" noses, and this is considered a desirable thing. Like Mitch Mills said, length, not mass.
I'm now reminded of an incident that illustrated this for me (it wasn't the only one though). A (Chinese) friend of mine had just gotten new glasses, and I complimented him on them.
But he said he didn't like them that much, they looked too much like Jiang Zemin's (meaning they had great big platter-like lenses, the bulk of which go down well below his eyes, see e.g. here.). He said the reason for this is that he needed his cheeks to support his glasses as his nose was too flat to do the job. Then he said, "You Westerners are lucky, with your big noses. You can do so much with them!"
The key thing besides the general flatness is that the bridge of most Chinese noses stops a lot lower than that of most European-types, i.e. it doesn't really extend up into the forebrow, but ends between the eyes. So their noses are a lot shorter in vertical length than the average honkey's honker.
And though I translated it as "big nose", the character for "big" can mean tall or long or similar things too. The same character is used for "The Great Wall of China", and in that case it's pretty clear they're stressing the length too. When Nixon went to China he tried to make a pun, saying something like "It truly is a great wall." Translated into Chinese it basically came out "That wall shore is long, ain't it?"
Oh, and since threadjacking is all the rage these days, the Great Wall is not visible from space, or even from very high up. Snopes has a good run down on this myth. It used to say so in Chinese textbooks, but that may be changing.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 1:54 PM
Geez, I really need to stop with the "And then one time, in China . . . " thing.
But for the record, I have no idea if they have band camps in China, though I suspect not.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 2:35 PM