I feel really bad for the guy. Everyone says he is genuinely nice person off the court, and everyone suspects serious mental problems. And the problem is that the treatment (so far) for those problems seems to diminish his effectivness at his job, a job for which minor gradations in talent are rewarded with vast differences in pay. So he did what many people would do in that situation - he skipped treatment and got paid.
I'm not excusing him, or suggesting that the situation that is him could have been handled better by "Others." It just seems like a really bad situation for someone to find themselves in. And that's sad.
I assume he won't be out of the league - the PA will fight that. But they've got to do something.
I don't know. Artest definitely has some issues, but I have trouble blaming last night's fracas on him. I'll bet something like a quarter of the guys in the league would have charged the stands if they got hit with a full cup of beer in that situation. To paraphrase Chris Rock, I'm not saying he should've attacked that guy... but I understand. He and Stephen Jackson will both get some big suspensions, but
The foul he put on Wallace was hard, but wasn't flagrant. Wallace's shove to the neck is going to get him a multi-game suspension, and Artest walked away from it. The fans coming up to him aggressively on the court deserved the jaw-crunching punches they received - and Jermaine O'Neal has a future on the Ultimate Fighting circuit. He laid that beefy guy flat.
Funny thing: I was watching that game, but changed the channel because Indy was up by a dozen or more with only a couple minutes left. Seemed like all night the refs really didn't have a firm handle on the game, though perhaps that's partly in hindsight.
And what apostropher said. Kicking indiscriminate ass because a fan who you didn't see doused you with a beer can't be justified, but there's certainly nothing crazy about it. (Except the hard foul on Big Ben: it was to my eyes a borderline cheapshot, and it came with 45 secs left and Indy up by 15; wtf?).
Yikes, what a mess! I think sports would be much more enjoyable if our culture would give up on the ideas that: (1) sports, when do the "right way," is morally improving, and (2) important and valid conclusions about the state of American society can be drawn by comparing the behavior of professional atheletes from the 50s to professional atheletes today. At the very least, if there wasn't so much weird moralistic baggage tied up with sports in our culture we could distinguish between people in need of professional help like Artest, criminals like Ray Lewis and amusing loud mouths like Terrell Owens.
I think the craziest thing Artest did, like son volt says, is take that cheap shot (and that is what it was) on Wallace. No points for walking away, because what is he going to do, fight Ben Wallace? Even Artest, after Wallace knocked him back ten feet, understood the futility of that. And of course I understand the impulse to charge the stands, but impulse control is precisely what Artest is missing, just like Rodman back in the day. Maybe he's a fine guy off the court, but as long as they let him keep playing, things like this are going to keep happening.
What the hell were you watching? Artest backed down while Wallace and Larry Brown continued to foment the crowd. After Wallace threw a towel toward Artest, the fans followed his lead. I'd say the actions of the fans represents a triumph of leadership by the Ben Wallace, Larry Brown and the entire Pistons organization. Simply, if Ben Wallace doesn't assault Ron Artest, no riot ensues. And you would attribute it all to Ron Artest, how pathetic?
What Artest did was another old Rodman trick: provoke, then act like you're the calm one, and the other guy is nuts. Usually, it makes the other guy nuts. Artest took a cheap shot, and Wallace (rightly) went after him. I don't care that Artest acted cool after that. (And there's no excuse for what the fans did.)
Yeah, the powerful and enlightened "tricked" by the insane savages of the world. At what point would you attribute any responsibility to arena security, Detroit uniformed police, Ben Wallace, Larry Brown, the fans and the Piston organization? Never, right? Spare me the conclusion that the incident was prompted by Artest's hard foul on Wallace. Artest's foul on Wallace was a completely legal, appropriate, and rational response to a hard foul committed by Wallace earlier in the game. Without any doubt, the irrationally overwrought reaction by Wallace, the Piston's coaches and teammates incited the crowd to commit acts of violence. Go watch the video again. It's inspirational.
Wow - shockingly similar. Although, of course, with a difference - you haven't been "chunned". And that, my friend, is all the difference in the world.
Come on ogged, just because the Man has spoken with a one year suspension doesn't mean Artest is "nuts". The level of self-denial and self-deception apparent in Detroit, the NBA, and in this blog approaches collective insanity. Concomitently, the demonization of Ron Artest is so absurd as to approach schizophrenic comedy. The only two people responsible for inciting such malevolence, such unadulterated evil, upon the unsuspecting masses, particularly the innocent children of NBA fans, are al-Zarqawi and OBL.
Rich, I've gone over your past comments, which are by and large perfectly sane. Something about Ron Artest brings out the fire in you. Let's say the Pistons and all who support them are hellspawn. Ron Artest is still nuts, and you'll note that I was saying so back in June (and you were disagreeing with similarly decreasing self-control.) I do think you're on the right track with the Zarqawi, OBL references though; off to Gitmo with Artest!
However, with some experience in psychiatry, i'd say that your comment "...brings out the fire..." reflects more poorly on the group, self-indicts the mob to a much greater degree and should induce a greater level of introspection as to why so many people quickly and easily demonized this one individual. After the recent Presidential election, you wouldn't fall back on the fallacy of majority wisdom to defend your position. Looked at another way, when those of you state Artest needs help, usually psychiatric help, please examine the sincerity of your intentions.
What's weirdest is that he claims to be a Spurs fan. I don't know if there's ever been a softer, more well-mannered NBA team to win a championship. You wouldn't think he'd be on Artest's side.
I'm not sure I follow you, Rich. I'm serious, I think the guy needs help. He has a history of acting this way, and not just in the well-publicized instances that resulted in suspensions, but stories of his teammates saying that the guy is nuts, breaking Jordan's rib pre-last comeback, etc. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but are you disagreeing with that?
Actually, I've watched the footage very closely. Artest swings but DOES NOT hit the man in the Pistons jersey. Luckily for the fan, he just dodges the blow, although he gets dropped by a Pacer's assistant coach a split second afterwards.
he broke Jordan's ribs, figuratively the icon of the NBA? I guess that makes Ron Artest an iconoclast. Maybe this reconfiguring of the Artest myth as an iconoclast along side the iconic figure of Jordan, David Stern's meal ticket, was too much for the commissioner to stomach. My point Ogged, Artest's willingness to throw aside some pretty bizarre social mores, ie. not defend oneself against assault (remember he has also been villified in the same incident for his restraint) angers most people who over-compliantly withdraw from even legitimate confrontation in society because Artest's aggressively defensive action in contrast oddly enough reminds them of their weakness, their smallness and their impotence. Sure, Artest needs anger counselling or perhaps a frontline assignment with the 3rd Marine Regiment in Fallujah where snap judgments are not only valued, but celebrated. Today, when many people submit to the Man usually with large doses of Prozac or Zoloft, emotional stoicism is a character trait too highly respected, and the rich authoritarians are the only people allowed emotional outbursts. Ogged, did you inadvertently break open a conspiracy theory can of worms with your reference to Jordan? Do you think the Jordan-Artest saga extends back to the game where Reggie Miller's head fouled Michael Jordan's hand leading to Miller's one game suspension ? The patrons at IndyStar seem to think so.
I'd probably like to see a latter day Spartacus as much as Rich appears to, a post-historical Dionysian figure better reflecting an age of empire than the 60s guys like Muhammad Ali or Bill Russell. But I"m fairly certain that Ron Artest isn't that guy, nor does he want to be.
Google Spartucus, Dionysus, and Travis Bickle together and you get a French movie review. I was thinking more along the lines of the Quintillian versus Quotidian ethical dilemma as a method to objectively understand the human response by non-pejorative conceptualization.
Heads in the refrigerator, I didn't think j. Dahmer fit the study references. Perhaps I overestimated the intellectual weight of this blog's participants or worse yet underestimated their humor. Nevertheless and in addition to me, my wife and sons had a terrific laugh although they're afraid now to take naps in my presence.
when the crowd in its infinite wisdom designates you or someone you know the target, how tall will you stand in defense against the onslaught?
I feel really bad for the guy. Everyone says he is genuinely nice person off the court, and everyone suspects serious mental problems. And the problem is that the treatment (so far) for those problems seems to diminish his effectivness at his job, a job for which minor gradations in talent are rewarded with vast differences in pay. So he did what many people would do in that situation - he skipped treatment and got paid.
I'm not excusing him, or suggesting that the situation that is him could have been handled better by "Others." It just seems like a really bad situation for someone to find themselves in. And that's sad.
I assume he won't be out of the league - the PA will fight that. But they've got to do something.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 3:01 PM
I don't know. Artest definitely has some issues, but I have trouble blaming last night's fracas on him. I'll bet something like a quarter of the guys in the league would have charged the stands if they got hit with a full cup of beer in that situation. To paraphrase Chris Rock, I'm not saying he should've attacked that guy... but I understand. He and Stephen Jackson will both get some big suspensions, but
The foul he put on Wallace was hard, but wasn't flagrant. Wallace's shove to the neck is going to get him a multi-game suspension, and Artest walked away from it. The fans coming up to him aggressively on the court deserved the jaw-crunching punches they received - and Jermaine O'Neal has a future on the Ultimate Fighting circuit. He laid that beefy guy flat.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 7:56 PM
Hmm. Something's missing.
"some big suspensions, but"...most of the players around the league will probably defend him on this one.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 7:58 PM
Funny thing: I was watching that game, but changed the channel because Indy was up by a dozen or more with only a couple minutes left. Seemed like all night the refs really didn't have a firm handle on the game, though perhaps that's partly in hindsight.
And what apostropher said. Kicking indiscriminate ass because a fan who you didn't see doused you with a beer can't be justified, but there's certainly nothing crazy about it. (Except the hard foul on Big Ben: it was to my eyes a borderline cheapshot, and it came with 45 secs left and Indy up by 15; wtf?).
Posted by son volt | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 8:56 PM
Yikes, what a mess! I think sports would be much more enjoyable if our culture would give up on the ideas that: (1) sports, when do the "right way," is morally improving, and (2) important and valid conclusions about the state of American society can be drawn by comparing the behavior of professional atheletes from the 50s to professional atheletes today. At the very least, if there wasn't so much weird moralistic baggage tied up with sports in our culture we could distinguish between people in need of professional help like Artest, criminals like Ray Lewis and amusing loud mouths like Terrell Owens.
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 9:34 PM
I think the craziest thing Artest did, like son volt says, is take that cheap shot (and that is what it was) on Wallace. No points for walking away, because what is he going to do, fight Ben Wallace? Even Artest, after Wallace knocked him back ten feet, understood the futility of that. And of course I understand the impulse to charge the stands, but impulse control is precisely what Artest is missing, just like Rodman back in the day. Maybe he's a fine guy off the court, but as long as they let him keep playing, things like this are going to keep happening.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-20-04 11:49 PM
What the hell were you watching? Artest backed down while Wallace and Larry Brown continued to foment the crowd. After Wallace threw a towel toward Artest, the fans followed his lead. I'd say the actions of the fans represents a triumph of leadership by the Ben Wallace, Larry Brown and the entire Pistons organization. Simply, if Ben Wallace doesn't assault Ron Artest, no riot ensues. And you would attribute it all to Ron Artest, how pathetic?
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 10:26 AM
What Artest did was another old Rodman trick: provoke, then act like you're the calm one, and the other guy is nuts. Usually, it makes the other guy nuts. Artest took a cheap shot, and Wallace (rightly) went after him. I don't care that Artest acted cool after that. (And there's no excuse for what the fans did.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 10:30 AM
Yeah, the powerful and enlightened "tricked" by the insane savages of the world. At what point would you attribute any responsibility to arena security, Detroit uniformed police, Ben Wallace, Larry Brown, the fans and the Piston organization? Never, right? Spare me the conclusion that the incident was prompted by Artest's hard foul on Wallace. Artest's foul on Wallace was a completely legal, appropriate, and rational response to a hard foul committed by Wallace earlier in the game. Without any doubt, the irrationally overwrought reaction by Wallace, the Piston's coaches and teammates incited the crowd to commit acts of violence. Go watch the video again. It's inspirational.
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 2:39 PM
I think they've got the video up at ESPN.com. Radley Balko had perhaps the most insightful comment - Stephen Jackson does punch like a girl.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 3:30 PM
I don't know if you guys remember this, but it's really funny how much this post and thread are a reprise of this one, from June.
In any case, Rich, no one involved in the incident is blameless, but only Ron Artest is nuts.
And I thought all professional athletes fought like girls (at least until Jermaine O'Neal's wicked jab).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 4:05 PM
Wow - shockingly similar. Although, of course, with a difference - you haven't been "chunned". And that, my friend, is all the difference in the world.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 5:10 PM
Come on ogged, just because the Man has spoken with a one year suspension doesn't mean Artest is "nuts". The level of self-denial and self-deception apparent in Detroit, the NBA, and in this blog approaches collective insanity. Concomitently, the demonization of Ron Artest is so absurd as to approach schizophrenic comedy. The only two people responsible for inciting such malevolence, such unadulterated evil, upon the unsuspecting masses, particularly the innocent children of NBA fans, are al-Zarqawi and OBL.
A years suspension, now that's nuts.
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 7:14 PM
concomitantly
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 7:15 PM
Rich, I've gone over your past comments, which are by and large perfectly sane. Something about Ron Artest brings out the fire in you. Let's say the Pistons and all who support them are hellspawn. Ron Artest is still nuts, and you'll note that I was saying so back in June (and you were disagreeing with similarly decreasing self-control.) I do think you're on the right track with the Zarqawi, OBL references though; off to Gitmo with Artest!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 8:02 PM
However, with some experience in psychiatry, i'd say that your comment "...brings out the fire..." reflects more poorly on the group, self-indicts the mob to a much greater degree and should induce a greater level of introspection as to why so many people quickly and easily demonized this one individual. After the recent Presidential election, you wouldn't fall back on the fallacy of majority wisdom to defend your position. Looked at another way, when those of you state Artest needs help, usually psychiatric help, please examine the sincerity of your intentions.
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 9:30 PM
What's weirdest is that he claims to be a Spurs fan. I don't know if there's ever been a softer, more well-mannered NBA team to win a championship. You wouldn't think he'd be on Artest's side.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-21-04 9:31 PM
I'm not sure I follow you, Rich. I'm serious, I think the guy needs help. He has a history of acting this way, and not just in the well-publicized instances that resulted in suspensions, but stories of his teammates saying that the guy is nuts, breaking Jordan's rib pre-last comeback, etc. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but are you disagreeing with that?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-22-04 2:45 AM
Actually, I've watched the footage very closely. Artest swings but DOES NOT hit the man in the Pistons jersey. Luckily for the fan, he just dodges the blow, although he gets dropped by a Pacer's assistant coach a split second afterwards.
Posted by chishen | Link to this comment | 11-22-04 1:20 PM
Ban Ron Artest from NBA
http://www.petitiononline.com/ra3d1234/petition.html
Posted by Mark | Link to this comment | 11-22-04 2:05 PM
he broke Jordan's ribs, figuratively the icon of the NBA? I guess that makes Ron Artest an iconoclast. Maybe this reconfiguring of the Artest myth as an iconoclast along side the iconic figure of Jordan, David Stern's meal ticket, was too much for the commissioner to stomach. My point Ogged, Artest's willingness to throw aside some pretty bizarre social mores, ie. not defend oneself against assault (remember he has also been villified in the same incident for his restraint) angers most people who over-compliantly withdraw from even legitimate confrontation in society because Artest's aggressively defensive action in contrast oddly enough reminds them of their weakness, their smallness and their impotence. Sure, Artest needs anger counselling or perhaps a frontline assignment with the 3rd Marine Regiment in Fallujah where snap judgments are not only valued, but celebrated. Today, when many people submit to the Man usually with large doses of Prozac or Zoloft, emotional stoicism is a character trait too highly respected, and the rich authoritarians are the only people allowed emotional outbursts. Ogged, did you inadvertently break open a conspiracy theory can of worms with your reference to Jordan? Do you think the Jordan-Artest saga extends back to the game where Reggie Miller's head fouled Michael Jordan's hand leading to Miller's one game suspension ? The patrons at IndyStar seem to think so.
Posted by rich | Link to this comment | 11-22-04 11:19 PM
"Artest's aggressively defensive action in contrast oddly enough reminds them of their weakness, their smallness and their impotence"
Rich,
exactly how many heads do you have in your refrigerator?
And (obviously) when you begin the Travis Bickle-style cleansing of society, please don't kill me. I like Artest.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-23-04 8:39 AM
I'd probably like to see a latter day Spartacus as much as Rich appears to, a post-historical Dionysian figure better reflecting an age of empire than the 60s guys like Muhammad Ali or Bill Russell. But I"m fairly certain that Ron Artest isn't that guy, nor does he want to be.
Posted by son volt | Link to this comment | 11-23-04 9:18 AM
Google Spartucus, Dionysus, and Travis Bickle together and you get a French movie review. I was thinking more along the lines of the Quintillian versus Quotidian ethical dilemma as a method to objectively understand the human response by non-pejorative conceptualization.
Heads in the refrigerator, I didn't think j. Dahmer fit the study references. Perhaps I overestimated the intellectual weight of this blog's participants or worse yet underestimated their humor. Nevertheless and in addition to me, my wife and sons had a terrific laugh although they're afraid now to take naps in my presence.
when the crowd in its infinite wisdom designates you or someone you know the target, how tall will you stand in defense against the onslaught?
Posted by Rich | Link to this comment | 11-23-04 7:36 PM
The end of western civilization
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11-24-04 12:47 PM