I'm neither woman nor wise. But. To quote you in a previous post:
Do you realize that you've lived in the same damn place for over five years and you haven't made one single, solitary friend?
So try to see her again. Something low-key, like coffee. Than maybe a groupish activity, like a Christmas party, or a movie, where you both show up (as opposed to picking her up and taking her).
You might make a new friend, or at the very least have a few interesting conversations. And interesting people tend to have interesting friends, so you might indeed make several new friends. And maybe even maybe you might be interested, after some consideration, in dating her, or one of her interesting friends.
So I assume there were no Swedish lesbians at the party.
Sitting at home last night (by choice, mind you!), I checked Unfogged every so often and thought, "Well, at least Ogged is out having a good time." This is a clear-cut case of the blogosphere achieving something that the traditional media never could -- helping convince Ogged to go to a party.
For those who weren't around: in the early days of the site, Magik wrote about as much as I did here, and is the founding member of the commenting community.
True confessions: I stole that from an Onion "infographic" on what single people do on Valentine's Day. It became a running joke between me and my girlfriend when discussing what we were going to do when we weren't together.
As such, I believe it has become our phrase under Common Law -- perhaps a legal scholar could comment?
Arrange, Last Gentleman–style, to run into her seemingly by happenstance around town, at times when you've got nothing particularly pressing to do, so that you have further opportunity to pass time in pleasing discourse and the recitation of melodious hendecasyllables. Swim headstrong against the current of your reluctance, like the doughty candirú fish, knowing that when you have gained your destination your backwards-pointing spines will prevent extrication.
"I never ask girls out because I don't want to sound like some sexist asshole."
Okay, that's not completely on point, but what are you saying, that you're afraid if you ask her to coffee she'll fall completely and madly in love with you and then you'll just have to break her heart? Dude, you're charming and all (at least online), but come on.
Seriously, ask any female if someone asking her out hurts her feelings. Perhaps annoying, depending on the asker, but not hurtful. And one meet-up after making her acquaintance at a party does not equal leading her on. Intoning "it will all end in tears" is just a cop out.
(Since you asked for the help of your commentariat in making you go to the party, I'm taking the liberty of also strongly encouraging you to get in touch with Philosophy Grad Girl, and NOT, honest, because I think it will make good blogfodder)
It is the leading on problem. I don't have to think she's going to fall for me to worry about it, do I? If someone contacts you after chatting at a party, isn't the normal inference, "He's (at least a little) interested in me"? And isn't finding that to be not the case upsetting?
Too bad none of your female readership has commented yet. Surely there's a way to more or less explicitly disavow romantic intent, without implying "... because you're undesirable."
A friend of mine who wanted to be more friendly, but only friendly, with an acquaintance sent him an email saying "let's be friends". I think there was an initial misunderstanding (they went out something like 8 or 9 years ago) but has since turned out well, AFAIK.
But mightn't it also be upsetting to meet interesting people at parties and then never be contacted?
And no, you don't have to think she's going to fall for you to worry about it, I do exactly the same thing. But I think that both "I don't want her to think I'm a jerk on the make" and "I don't want to mislead her" are more often rationalizations for a failure of nerve or, as you say, "stupid, antisocial" tendencies than real reasons.
At least for me. Maybe not for you, and if not, good. I'm just pushing you in case that's the case.
Ok, I get it Mitch. I'm not averse to asking people out: I've actually asked out a couple of complete strangers this year (both were seeing people, or so they said), and I would have no problem contacting the grad student. The problem, in this case, really is the one I say.
I think as long as you don't sleep with her, you'll be able to walk the line of not becoming romantically involved and not breaking her heart. And if you do the group-oriented thing that others have suggested, she could be your way into a wider social circle, too. Overall, I see nothing but benefits accruing to you if you contact her.
Unless she's insane (which is possible, given the fact that she's a philosophy grad student), she will probably be able to handle whatever degree of disappointment will follow from your not wanting to be romantically involved.
God, am I the only woman who reads this blog? Maybe I need to check with the other girls at the next meeting.
Ogged, my dear deluded friend, it is perfectly possible to become friends with women. Just send her an email that doesn't sound like you're asking her on a date. Here's a template:
"Hi, this may seem really weird, but I had a great time talking to you at the party, and I'd really like to hear more about your work, maybe hang out sometime. I hope you don't mind that I got your email address from so-and-so. Maybe we could have lunch?"
Lunch is a really low-key offer. It *could* be the initial, tentative foray into a dating-type relationship, but it could also just be friendly. It's kind of nice to have people just want to be friends. All you have to do is be *casual* and friendly. She might wonder if it's a date or not, but my god, she's a grown woman. A tiny bit of unavoidable ambiguity is not going to kill her, and presumably she's not an idiot so she'll figure it out soon enough. I'm sure you're lovely but she will probably survive the realization.
Jesus. Sometimes the nicest men have the hardest time remembering that women mostly manage to get through the world just fine without being looked after. (Rolls eyes, affectionately.)
I was waiting for your "she can take care of herself" comment. But I was guessing you'd say "grown up" and instead you said "grown woman." Live and learn.
I have no problem deliberately hurting people's feelings, but the accidental, unavoidable, regrettable ones kill me. There are people from grade school that I wish I could contact to apologize to. Jared, I'm sorry!!
Yeah, this probably makes me a candidate for therapy; not socializing for fear of hurting people's feelings is pretty neurotic...but there it is.
I'm glad I'm not yet *completely* predictable. Yes, you are a neurotic freak, but who isn't? Hurting people's feelings does kind of suck, but on the other hand, it's also kind of hurtful, in a way, not to presume that most people can take care of their own feelings and/or, if it comes down to it, accept an apology. Jared has almost certainly forgotten all about it.
My mom is a crazy narcissist, but one piece of narcissistic wisdom she once gave me always seemed very wise: most people are far too busy thinking about the impression they're making on others to spend much time fretting over the impression you've made on them, one way or another.
This is very funny. You're giving me, almost word for word, advice I give to other people.
One ex, on the phone at the moment, tells me that I should contact her, and make it clear at the outset that it's all just friendly. That's doable, if presumptuous.
You're blogging AND talking on the phone at the same time?
That's talent.
Anyway the above conversation reminded me of a call I once received from someone I knew back in high school. He was more or less just an acquaintance, not really a friend, although we probably saw each other every weekday for several years, as happens in school.
He was calling to apologize for something or other, I honestly now can't remember what. He was going through a twelve step program to quit drinking, and apparently one of the stages is to apologize to everyone you've hurt because of your drinking. This was about 10 years after graduation, and I didn't remember at all the occurence he was apologizing for, in fact I couldn't even picture him till I got out the yearbook after the call, but I accepted his apology graciously and wished him the best of luck.
I'm pretty sure Jared has moved on with his life by now, ogged, so go on, give that girl a call.
What a weirdo. I once called a high-school acquaintance pretending to be from his credit card issuer, threatening him with fines and jail time, but that wasn't part of any larger healing program.
Of course you guys are right, and it's silly to treat people like fragile flowers just to spare my own feelings; ok, ok, maybe.
(But don't make it too clear at the outset that you "just" want to be friends--that is presumptuous. I'm telling you, deliberately casual will convey the same thing.)
No one ever appreciates my tone. Hence the nom de plume.
(Pshaw re. "difficult." There is zero difficulty here. Drama queen.)
Your ex might be right about direct vs. merely casual. On second thought, I'm sure you can manage to be direct about saying that you're not hitting on her without managing to sound like you think you're god's gift.
See? I can concede a point occasionally. (But I'll never, under pain of death, concede a point to baa.)
Ben's right. I didn't say I dislike him. I just think he's usually wrong. (But I'm starting to feel bad about this running joke, as apparently he isn't here to enjoy it....)
Ask Mr. B. if I frequently concede points to those I love. Again, I explain that my pseudonym was chosen deliberately.
As someone who once went 3 years - easily could have made 5 or more, but I moved - without making one solitary friend, I'd second the advice to learn how to stop worrying and just contact her. The funny thing is that my fear in this situation would be that she would think I was asking her for a date and turn me down, and I'd never get a chance to let her know I just wanted to be friends. Your rationalization is much more selfless and self-confident; the next time I'm afraid to talk to someone interesting, I'm going to use it. (Just as soon as I stop avoiding parties, that is.)
Incidentally, I just found this site and this whole exchange has restored my faith in the blogosphere. (And just as I was in the process of dropping out, no less.) Who says blogging makes no real impact on people's lives?
Too late! I've been let down often and repeatedly already. But now that I expect it, can I really feel more let down when it happens? Now each disappointment is more fulfilling than the last.
Just call her. Do what bitchphd says, she's got good advice for how to make sure the girl in question understands that you're not doing the full court press. And then see where things go. If you're sure, at this point, that you'll never want to be romantically involved with her, you're a fool; nobody knows how relationships will evolve beforehand. And you surely don't know how she feels, or will feel, about your. Therefore, don't not talk to this girl because you might and she might and then you both might and then it would all end in tears. Just talk to her. Make a friend. Relax. Trying to predict the future of social relationships, romantic or otherwise, is for fools.
No way. It took me months to track all those down. My Supreme Court nomination is probably toast already. Here's Reggie Love getting the treatment, though. Duke sucks.
Apostropher, as a former little girl who was always *distinctly* un-drama queeny, I must officially object to your slur. Ogged is in a neurotic little camp of his own.
wow, I'm not the only chick who reads this blog! there's, like, two of us! I heartily second bitchphd's advice. the problem of guys just wanting to be friends with you is so not a problem. the problem is when they fall in love with you and become stalkers and mope around threatening suicide. also, lunch is a straightforwardly non-date invite.
But ogged *does* have a point: if lunches happen, and other social events are on the horizon, there might need to be a "making it explicit" conversation.
No, I don't mean "So what do you think of Robert Brandom's book?"
Belle, gosh I'm glad you showed up. I was starting to worry about whether I could really adequately serve the role of representative woman for long.... :P
Ogged, there's another possibility. You *could* act like a little girl (or boy) and just be kind of neurotic to the Swede, and get *her* to explain to her friend that you're a darling, non-stalkerish guy and you really just think she seems nice and are not hitting on her. Kind of the opposite of grade school: "Ogged told me he *doesn't* like you, but he really wants to be your friend..."
FL, "might," but probably not, unless the woman is really neurotic herself. When you have lunch with a man and then maybe see him a few other times in non-datey type situations and he's friendly and doesn't flirt with you or otherwise act interested, it's kind of easy to figure out, well, that he's friendly, but not interested.
C'mon, is this really so weird? Don't men kind of realize that friendly non-flirty women might like them without LIKING them? This ain't some men are from mars, women are from venus thing....
Ok, I am going to go have a cigarette and stop this idiotic multiple blog-commenting. My excuse is that my stupid meds ran out this weekend and my doc didn't call in the represcription so I am spending too much time online.
Probably I should act all sophisticated and knowing in response to your comment, b, but, well, no, that whole likes me without liking me thing is a tough call, and if some woman got in touch with me, repeatedly, I'd figure she was just having trouble coming out with it.
OK. I'm siding with the rest of the women here. If you want to hang out with her get in touch. Don't overanalyze it. Just do it.
And then when you go out, don't kiss her, don't lean in close, don't profess your undying love, don't tell her you want to take her home to Turkey to meet your mother (oops, wait, that was a first date I went on this summer).
And if you really think she's into you and you're not feeling it in return, get her a Christmas gift --- her own copy of He's Just Not That Into You.
I suppose I couldn't restrain my desire to offer a bit of semi-unsolicited advice. Anyway, here it goes -
GO OUT THERE AND TAKE A CHANCE OGGED! Ask the girl out on a "date." Call it whatever you want. Take her out to a great restaurant and talk each other's ears off. God knows you're an interesting guy (why else would so many people read your blog with such religious conviction), and I'm sure you won't run out of things to talk about. Who cares what happens after that. That's just a normal part of life. I've been asked out by I don't know how many guys in my life (I'm a heterosexual woman, by the way), and I never, ever thought badly of a guy who was kind and respectful, regardless of his amorous intentions. You don't need to write out a consent form for a girl just to take her out for coffee. I mean, that's part of the excitement of dating, or making friends, or meeting new folks on the greyhound bus with a one way ticket on your way to some god-forsaken place. You may share intimacies that last only as long as ride keeps going. Women know that too, and are fully capable of appreciating the reality of it. A relationships doesn't have to be permanent to be worthwhile or of value. And you never know what doors a new person will open to your life - the role she might play in your life, who she might introduce you to, or who you might become as a result of those things. If we don't expose ourselves to the potential suffering that comes from our social failures, how can we ever learn to bear the inevitability of it?
I think an appealing aspect of internet communication is that we don't have to show our faces or expose our genuine weaknesses. We can offer up what information we choose, in measured doses and with the expectation of certain predictable responses. In contrast, real life stings and digs and burns, but we all know that it is the only place where we will ever find the warmth, the companionship and the honest love that will sustain us.
- Anyway, all I really meant to say was that it's not advantageous to over-analyze human relationships. They have to be lived. And there is NO reason to feel guilty or sexist for living them, which includes asking a girl out, among many other things.
Would this have been easier if you were married? Really, what would have happened under that scenario? Would you have emailed her? No matter how well your intentions are, your actions might be misconstrued. Contact her only if you are attracted to her. What if this thing develops into something more than just a friendship? Would you then agonize, again!? If you just want her friendship and nothing more, email her and invite her to visit Unfogged.com
Now you have a bone to pick with me. Curry favor? May be. At least you should know what side your bread is buttered on. Whether cousin or not, I am true blue. I accept the honor. Do you really have a cousin in Chicago? Adam Kostko and I, and Profgrrrrl are going to have a blog party soon. Care to join?
63 comments expended on this. Jeebus, that's a lot of angst to be spending on this question. At this point, I think you're morally obligated as a man to (a) get in touch with her, (b) sleep with her, and (c) drop her immediately afterwards, preferably by checking caller-id and never answering the phone when she calls, until she intuits the end. And to blog about all the here-and-wheretofores, obviously.
Finally, some advice I can use. But better yet, I'll answer and tell her I can't understand a word she's saying, because of her accent. I'll have no idea how it was that I could understand her before.
God, thank god some of the women chimed in finally, I was starting to worry. Ogged (saying this nicely): There is a remote possibility that this girl might not want to date you. Nothing sets us off kilter more than realizing that someone whose league we imagine ourselves to be out of, actually thinks they are out of ours, but it happens all the time. Also: You had more fun with her that anyone else at the party. So I second (or third or fourth) theinvitation to lunch or some other mutual-interest based activity like coffee, tennis, or a lecture on Derrida. Belle and Bitchphd already express this with more eloquence than I, but girls can read body language like anyone else and she is going to get what is going on, without any trouble.
And when you get together for that first non-date activity, nothing has worked so well for me for putting the let's-be-friends card on the table as an good confessional let me tell you about my lovelife or dating travails. Because then she will know without a shadow of a doubt you are not into her, and many girls love having a guy-friend that they can turn to advice for on romantic issues.
Well, p-grrrrl, I'll have to check with my cousins to see if any have moved their mothers to Turkey, or whether that's a new, not-so-popular come on. Damn, but it would be funny if you'd dated my cousin.
Ok, I think I've got it: make contact, she can take care of herself, quit being such a queen. Check, check, check.
Now, I have to bring this up with the Swede, and we don't usually chitchat much, and often misunderstand each other, what with the language thing and all...this'll be interesting; a one-person game of telephone...
Well, this guy actually was from Turkey. I suspect his mama has always resided there.
Guess I'm not going to be marrying into the Ogged family ... unless that was one of your cousins who growled like a dog and nipped my cheek after kissing me. I'm. Not. Kidding. (wish I were)
Now, when you call for the non-date will you post it at the top level so we can have more fun generating comments?
who growled like a dog and nipped my cheek after kissing me.
Good lord. But, you know, dogs (and feet) are considered dirty in my culture, so I don't think any of my cousins would use that particular animagical transformation. Neigh like a horse, maybe...
(Of *course* I'll post all about it; have I shown any limits at all to my self-involvement?)
Crap, you're right Mitch. But I don't need encouragement for this one; any sane blogger would want to get down with Kotsko, Veiled and p-grrrl...but not without B-dub!
Ogged is trying to imitate a sane man. For as it says in the Tsurezuregusa, or Essays in Idleness, of Yoshida Kenko:
If you run through the streets, saying you imitate a lunatic, you are in fact a lunatic. If you kill a man, saying you imitate a criminal, you are a criminal yourself. By the same token, a horse that imitates a champion thoroughbred may be classed as a thoroughbred, and the man who imitates Shun belongs to Shun's company. A man who studies wisdom, even insincerely, should be called wise.
Actually the part I was thinking of occurs immediately before the part I just quoted, oh well. Ogged, can you explain that last comment? Its meaning is opaque to me (and I feel it concerns me, since you've tried to slander—I feel the term is not too strong for the damage you've done to me!—with some supposed fetishization of rigid dichotomies in the past).
Here I am, refusing to party without you, and you're still on your guard. Oh well, probably wise. Let me know if you want to go to Fat Willy's around Christmas time. I'm serious.
I know what the book is and (at a very broad level) its thesis--would I have had to have read it to understand why you mentioned it?
I'd be totally up for going to Fat Willy's, but I want to tell you up front, I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with you, ok? I just don't want to lead you on.
What I intended was to signal rejection of Kenko's point by lumping it in with the other reasons "the East" was outstripped by Europe in terms of global power.
Spending time with someone you;re attracted to is a date. The only reasons not to date are
1) fear of rejection - which means you're a wuss
2) even though you're clearly attracted to her, she's not "hot" enough for .... whom exactly? Looks fade, but "endearingly goofy" and "smart" pretty much last forever.
Take a chance and get to know her, it s just a date, not a fucking arranged marriage.
Righto, b-dub. Is not, fast. And those aren't the "only" reasons either. Z.B., I have no desire to subject my life to the upheaval of dating someone whose home is in another country. And now this really has become presumptuous.
Ogged, haven't you read profgrrrrl's reviews of "He's Just Not that Into You"? Giving her *your* number instead of asking for *hers* signals that you're not into her.
Oh wait, that's what you want. I'm getting confused.
If you respond, it'll be at 100 posts. Ben will be so pleased.
This isn't really relevant, and I hate to pry, but I have to say, I'm now terribly curious: why are you so sure you won't want to date her? It seems that you are available, yes? Are you one of those people who instantly knows whether or not you'll ever be romantically interested in someone, for no obvious reason? I've always found that a fascinating and somewhat incomprehensible phenomena. I mean, it seems like a given that she's a very attractive person. . . Just curious, apologies if I've offended or pried.
Are you one of those people who instantly knows whether or not you'll ever be romantically interested in someone, for no obvious reason?
I guess the short answer is yes. There was another answer above (you're forgiven for not having read every single comment): "I have no desire to subject my life to the upheaval of dating someone whose home is in another country."
There are other reasons, but listing reasons why you won't date a particular person, as opposed to say, half the world, is uncomfortable.
Four's doable. To email or not to email: the ur-situation, infinitely discussable.
I don't think it would have been appropriate to bring up "look at my butt": what if she hadn't invited other instructees to do it?
In fact, I think some of the people there didn't even know she was a swimmer. Then others knew her because she was a local celebrity in her hometown in Sweden.
"I think I'm going to say it was a nice chat and call it a relationship."
Sounds like settling, which is never the
right answer....
Magik "The" Johnson
Posted by Magik Johnson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 4:56 AM
Hey hey! Magik Johnson is back!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:07 AM
I'm neither woman nor wise. But. To quote you in a previous post:
Do you realize that you've lived in the same damn place for over five years and you haven't made one single, solitary friend?
So try to see her again. Something low-key, like coffee. Than maybe a groupish activity, like a Christmas party, or a movie, where you both show up (as opposed to picking her up and taking her).
You might make a new friend, or at the very least have a few interesting conversations. And interesting people tend to have interesting friends, so you might indeed make several new friends. And maybe even maybe you might be interested, after some consideration, in dating her, or one of her interesting friends.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:46 AM
So I assume there were no Swedish lesbians at the party.
Sitting at home last night (by choice, mind you!), I checked Unfogged every so often and thought, "Well, at least Ogged is out having a good time." This is a clear-cut case of the blogosphere achieving something that the traditional media never could -- helping convince Ogged to go to a party.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:55 AM
Magik! Welcome back!!
Are you in town?
For those who weren't around: in the early days of the site, Magik wrote about as much as I did here, and is the founding member of the commenting community.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:03 AM
Mitch, it's definitely to my advantage to contact her, but I'm worried about hurting her feelings, and don't see a good way to avoid that.
Adam, I note in sadness that Yglesias left out your masterful "cry cry masturbate cry" when he linked to your comment. The Big Media effect, probably.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:06 AM
True confessions: I stole that from an Onion "infographic" on what single people do on Valentine's Day. It became a running joke between me and my girlfriend when discussing what we were going to do when we weren't together.
As such, I believe it has become our phrase under Common Law -- perhaps a legal scholar could comment?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:22 AM
Arrange, Last Gentleman–style, to run into her seemingly by happenstance around town, at times when you've got nothing particularly pressing to do, so that you have further opportunity to pass time in pleasing discourse and the recitation of melodious hendecasyllables. Swim headstrong against the current of your reluctance, like the doughty candirú fish, knowing that when you have gained your destination your backwards-pointing spines will prevent extrication.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:24 AM
Also, I'd like to remark that baa's "Who says you have to stop crying?" has entered into my Pantheon of Comments. As has Ben Wolfson's latest.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:28 AM
Immortality is mine!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:44 AM
Mitch, it's definitely to my advantage to contact her, but I'm worried about hurting her feelings, and don't see a good way to avoid that.
To quote something else that was recently referenced on Unfogged:
Okay, that's not completely on point, but what are you saying, that you're afraid if you ask her to coffee she'll fall completely and madly in love with you and then you'll just have to break her heart? Dude, you're charming and all (at least online), but come on.
Seriously, ask any female if someone asking her out hurts her feelings. Perhaps annoying, depending on the asker, but not hurtful. And one meet-up after making her acquaintance at a party does not equal leading her on. Intoning "it will all end in tears" is just a cop out.
(Since you asked for the help of your commentariat in making you go to the party, I'm taking the liberty of also strongly encouraging you to get in touch with Philosophy Grad Girl, and NOT, honest, because I think it will make good blogfodder)
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 11:32 AM
It is the leading on problem. I don't have to think she's going to fall for me to worry about it, do I? If someone contacts you after chatting at a party, isn't the normal inference, "He's (at least a little) interested in me"? And isn't finding that to be not the case upsetting?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 11:43 AM
Too bad none of your female readership has commented yet. Surely there's a way to more or less explicitly disavow romantic intent, without implying "... because you're undesirable."
A friend of mine who wanted to be more friendly, but only friendly, with an acquaintance sent him an email saying "let's be friends". I think there was an initial misunderstanding (they went out something like 8 or 9 years ago) but has since turned out well, AFAIK.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:04 PM
But mightn't it also be upsetting to meet interesting people at parties and then never be contacted?
And no, you don't have to think she's going to fall for you to worry about it, I do exactly the same thing. But I think that both "I don't want her to think I'm a jerk on the make" and "I don't want to mislead her" are more often rationalizations for a failure of nerve or, as you say, "stupid, antisocial" tendencies than real reasons.
At least for me. Maybe not for you, and if not, good. I'm just pushing you in case that's the case.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:07 PM
Ok, I get it Mitch. I'm not averse to asking people out: I've actually asked out a couple of complete strangers this year (both were seeing people, or so they said), and I would have no problem contacting the grad student. The problem, in this case, really is the one I say.
Where are all the female commenters? Church?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:13 PM
I think as long as you don't sleep with her, you'll be able to walk the line of not becoming romantically involved and not breaking her heart. And if you do the group-oriented thing that others have suggested, she could be your way into a wider social circle, too. Overall, I see nothing but benefits accruing to you if you contact her.
Unless she's insane (which is possible, given the fact that she's a philosophy grad student), she will probably be able to handle whatever degree of disappointment will follow from your not wanting to be romantically involved.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:29 PM
God, am I the only woman who reads this blog? Maybe I need to check with the other girls at the next meeting.
Ogged, my dear deluded friend, it is perfectly possible to become friends with women. Just send her an email that doesn't sound like you're asking her on a date. Here's a template:
"Hi, this may seem really weird, but I had a great time talking to you at the party, and I'd really like to hear more about your work, maybe hang out sometime. I hope you don't mind that I got your email address from so-and-so. Maybe we could have lunch?"
Lunch is a really low-key offer. It *could* be the initial, tentative foray into a dating-type relationship, but it could also just be friendly. It's kind of nice to have people just want to be friends. All you have to do is be *casual* and friendly. She might wonder if it's a date or not, but my god, she's a grown woman. A tiny bit of unavoidable ambiguity is not going to kill her, and presumably she's not an idiot so she'll figure it out soon enough. I'm sure you're lovely but she will probably survive the realization.
Jesus. Sometimes the nicest men have the hardest time remembering that women mostly manage to get through the world just fine without being looked after. (Rolls eyes, affectionately.)
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:56 PM
Oh, and by the way, I'm really glad you went and had a good time. See? Never listen to baa.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 12:58 PM
I was waiting for your "she can take care of herself" comment. But I was guessing you'd say "grown up" and instead you said "grown woman." Live and learn.
I have no problem deliberately hurting people's feelings, but the accidental, unavoidable, regrettable ones kill me. There are people from grade school that I wish I could contact to apologize to. Jared, I'm sorry!!
Yeah, this probably makes me a candidate for therapy; not socializing for fear of hurting people's feelings is pretty neurotic...but there it is.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 1:16 PM
I'm glad I'm not yet *completely* predictable. Yes, you are a neurotic freak, but who isn't? Hurting people's feelings does kind of suck, but on the other hand, it's also kind of hurtful, in a way, not to presume that most people can take care of their own feelings and/or, if it comes down to it, accept an apology. Jared has almost certainly forgotten all about it.
My mom is a crazy narcissist, but one piece of narcissistic wisdom she once gave me always seemed very wise: most people are far too busy thinking about the impression they're making on others to spend much time fretting over the impression you've made on them, one way or another.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 1:28 PM
This is very funny. You're giving me, almost word for word, advice I give to other people.
One ex, on the phone at the moment, tells me that I should contact her, and make it clear at the outset that it's all just friendly. That's doable, if presumptuous.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 1:46 PM
You're blogging AND talking on the phone at the same time?
That's talent.
Anyway the above conversation reminded me of a call I once received from someone I knew back in high school. He was more or less just an acquaintance, not really a friend, although we probably saw each other every weekday for several years, as happens in school.
He was calling to apologize for something or other, I honestly now can't remember what. He was going through a twelve step program to quit drinking, and apparently one of the stages is to apologize to everyone you've hurt because of your drinking. This was about 10 years after graduation, and I didn't remember at all the occurence he was apologizing for, in fact I couldn't even picture him till I got out the yearbook after the call, but I accepted his apology graciously and wished him the best of luck.
I'm pretty sure Jared has moved on with his life by now, ogged, so go on, give that girl a call.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 2:45 PM
What a weirdo. I once called a high-school acquaintance pretending to be from his credit card issuer, threatening him with fines and jail time, but that wasn't part of any larger healing program.
Of course you guys are right, and it's silly to treat people like fragile flowers just to spare my own feelings; ok, ok, maybe.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 4:24 PM
God, just do it. Chicken.
(But don't make it too clear at the outset that you "just" want to be friends--that is presumptuous. I'm telling you, deliberately casual will convey the same thing.)
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 5:28 PM
I don't appreciate your tone, young lady. Though I'll concede you're probably right (although, like I said, at least one ex says to be upfront).
I'll figure something out. I would be pretty stupid to meet someone interesting and then not contact them.
Still, this is the real reason parties suck: the aftermath. Oy. I guess baa was right after all, eh b?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 6:23 PM
You're making this a lot harder on yourself than is really necessary, ogged.
A sucky party aftermath is not "I met someone interesting and want to see her again, in a non-romantic way".
I'll defer to apostropher for an example of a sucky party aftermath.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 6:35 PM
Is so a sucky aftermath. A good aftermath would be "I didn't meet anyone interesting, and I can forget all about it."
Actually, it's true that it's not bad, just difficult.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 6:42 PM
A GREAT aftermath would be "that party was so terrible I now feel justified in never attending another".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:00 PM
A paradox, along the lines of "it's great, or it's material:" any party that bad would be great material, and justify attending at least one other.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:03 PM
No one ever appreciates my tone. Hence the nom de plume.
(Pshaw re. "difficult." There is zero difficulty here. Drama queen.)
Your ex might be right about direct vs. merely casual. On second thought, I'm sure you can manage to be direct about saying that you're not hitting on her without managing to sound like you think you're god's gift.
See? I can concede a point occasionally. (But I'll never, under pain of death, concede a point to baa.)
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:15 PM
If I were a bitch, it'd be easy. It's considerably harder for a drama queen.
You'll come around to loving baa eventually.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:21 PM
"loving" and "conceding a point to", very different.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:29 PM
Ben's right. I didn't say I dislike him. I just think he's usually wrong. (But I'm starting to feel bad about this running joke, as apparently he isn't here to enjoy it....)
Ask Mr. B. if I frequently concede points to those I love. Again, I explain that my pseudonym was chosen deliberately.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:45 PM
Fair point. I'm sure he's around though, so you can keep ragging on him.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:56 PM
As someone who once went 3 years - easily could have made 5 or more, but I moved - without making one solitary friend, I'd second the advice to learn how to stop worrying and just contact her. The funny thing is that my fear in this situation would be that she would think I was asking her for a date and turn me down, and I'd never get a chance to let her know I just wanted to be friends. Your rationalization is much more selfless and self-confident; the next time I'm afraid to talk to someone interesting, I'm going to use it. (Just as soon as I stop avoiding parties, that is.)
Incidentally, I just found this site and this whole exchange has restored my faith in the blogosphere. (And just as I was in the process of dropping out, no less.) Who says blogging makes no real impact on people's lives?
Posted by aj | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 7:58 PM
Welcome aj! We hope to let you down soon and repeatedly!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:03 PM
Too late! I've been let down often and repeatedly already. But now that I expect it, can I really feel more let down when it happens? Now each disappointment is more fulfilling than the last.
Posted by aj | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:08 PM
So hard to find a virgin nowadays...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:11 PM
ogged:
Just call her. Do what bitchphd says, she's got good advice for how to make sure the girl in question understands that you're not doing the full court press. And then see where things go. If you're sure, at this point, that you'll never want to be romantically involved with her, you're a fool; nobody knows how relationships will evolve beforehand. And you surely don't know how she feels, or will feel, about your. Therefore, don't not talk to this girl because you might and she might and then you both might and then it would all end in tears. Just talk to her. Make a friend. Relax. Trying to predict the future of social relationships, romantic or otherwise, is for fools.
Posted by NBarnes | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:27 PM
"Ragging"?!? Exactly what are you implying? I'm a bitch all month long, I'll have you know.
Hmph.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:33 PM
I'll defer to apostropher for an example of a sucky party aftermath
1. Crabs.
2. Photos on the internet of you passed out on a couch getting teabagged.
3. Shaved eyebrows.
4. Restraining order.
Really, Ogged, this doesn't even register as a sucky party aftermath. Quit being such a little girl.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:35 PM
"Ragging"?!? Exactly what are you implying?
Hooray! I wondered if you'd catch that!
Trying to predict the future of social relationships, romantic or otherwise, is for fools.
Really? Maybe I'm just suffering from serious confirmation bias, but I think I always have a pretty good idea how things are going to go with people.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:37 PM
Apostropher, I know that comment is just a lead in for you to post that picture you have of scenario 2.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:40 PM
No way. It took me months to track all those down. My Supreme Court nomination is probably toast already. Here's Reggie Love getting the treatment, though. Duke sucks.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:47 PM
Very little gets past me.
Apostropher, as a former little girl who was always *distinctly* un-drama queeny, I must officially object to your slur. Ogged is in a neurotic little camp of his own.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:47 PM
Official objection officially noted.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:50 PM
Ogged, just email her already. Honestly, do I have to do all the heavy lifting in this relationship?
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 8:59 PM
Well, I don't in fact have her email address. Will have to broach this with the Swede tomorrow.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:07 PM
wow, I'm not the only chick who reads this blog! there's, like, two of us! I heartily second bitchphd's advice. the problem of guys just wanting to be friends with you is so not a problem. the problem is when they fall in love with you and become stalkers and mope around threatening suicide. also, lunch is a straightforwardly non-date invite.
Posted by belle waring | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:08 PM
But ogged *does* have a point: if lunches happen, and other social events are on the horizon, there might need to be a "making it explicit" conversation.
No, I don't mean "So what do you think of Robert Brandom's book?"
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:12 PM
Belle, gosh I'm glad you showed up. I was starting to worry about whether I could really adequately serve the role of representative woman for long.... :P
Ogged, there's another possibility. You *could* act like a little girl (or boy) and just be kind of neurotic to the Swede, and get *her* to explain to her friend that you're a darling, non-stalkerish guy and you really just think she seems nice and are not hitting on her. Kind of the opposite of grade school: "Ogged told me he *doesn't* like you, but he really wants to be your friend..."
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:12 PM
FL, "might," but probably not, unless the woman is really neurotic herself. When you have lunch with a man and then maybe see him a few other times in non-datey type situations and he's friendly and doesn't flirt with you or otherwise act interested, it's kind of easy to figure out, well, that he's friendly, but not interested.
C'mon, is this really so weird? Don't men kind of realize that friendly non-flirty women might like them without LIKING them? This ain't some men are from mars, women are from venus thing....
Ok, I am going to go have a cigarette and stop this idiotic multiple blog-commenting. My excuse is that my stupid meds ran out this weekend and my doc didn't call in the represcription so I am spending too much time online.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:17 PM
Probably I should act all sophisticated and knowing in response to your comment, b, but, well, no, that whole likes me without liking me thing is a tough call, and if some woman got in touch with me, repeatedly, I'd figure she was just having trouble coming out with it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:23 PM
b takes a cigarette break, for, you know, health reasons...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:32 PM
Well, for what it's worth (see, I have no willpower), I like you, but I don't like you. I am married, after all.
You know, it's funny, but the meds make the cigarettes taste like shit. They're addictive, though, so I smoke the fucking things anyway.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:34 PM
OK. I'm siding with the rest of the women here. If you want to hang out with her get in touch. Don't overanalyze it. Just do it.
And then when you go out, don't kiss her, don't lean in close, don't profess your undying love, don't tell her you want to take her home to Turkey to meet your mother (oops, wait, that was a first date I went on this summer).
And if you really think she's into you and you're not feeling it in return, get her a Christmas gift --- her own copy of He's Just Not That Into You.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:50 PM
Hello Ogged,
I suppose I couldn't restrain my desire to offer a bit of semi-unsolicited advice. Anyway, here it goes -
GO OUT THERE AND TAKE A CHANCE OGGED! Ask the girl out on a "date." Call it whatever you want. Take her out to a great restaurant and talk each other's ears off. God knows you're an interesting guy (why else would so many people read your blog with such religious conviction), and I'm sure you won't run out of things to talk about. Who cares what happens after that. That's just a normal part of life. I've been asked out by I don't know how many guys in my life (I'm a heterosexual woman, by the way), and I never, ever thought badly of a guy who was kind and respectful, regardless of his amorous intentions. You don't need to write out a consent form for a girl just to take her out for coffee. I mean, that's part of the excitement of dating, or making friends, or meeting new folks on the greyhound bus with a one way ticket on your way to some god-forsaken place. You may share intimacies that last only as long as ride keeps going. Women know that too, and are fully capable of appreciating the reality of it. A relationships doesn't have to be permanent to be worthwhile or of value. And you never know what doors a new person will open to your life - the role she might play in your life, who she might introduce you to, or who you might become as a result of those things. If we don't expose ourselves to the potential suffering that comes from our social failures, how can we ever learn to bear the inevitability of it?
I think an appealing aspect of internet communication is that we don't have to show our faces or expose our genuine weaknesses. We can offer up what information we choose, in measured doses and with the expectation of certain predictable responses. In contrast, real life stings and digs and burns, but we all know that it is the only place where we will ever find the warmth, the companionship and the honest love that will sustain us.
- Anyway, all I really meant to say was that it's not advantageous to over-analyze human relationships. They have to be lived. And there is NO reason to feel guilty or sexist for living them, which includes asking a girl out, among many other things.
Posted by hester | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 9:58 PM
Ogged,
Would this have been easier if you were married? Really, what would have happened under that scenario? Would you have emailed her? No matter how well your intentions are, your actions might be misconstrued. Contact her only if you are attracted to her. What if this thing develops into something more than just a friendship? Would you then agonize, again!? If you just want her friendship and nothing more, email her and invite her to visit Unfogged.com
Posted by Veiled | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:00 PM
Profgrrrrl dated my cousin? Holy shit!
email her and invite her to visit Unfogged.com
Worst. Advice. Ever.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:26 PM
Now that the secret is out, for crying out lound!, would you just listen to your family?
Love,
Veiled & Profgrrrrl.
Posted by Veiled | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:37 PM
I see your Chicago IP address Veiled. It would be too fucking funny if you were my cousin.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 10:42 PM
Now you have a bone to pick with me. Curry favor? May be. At least you should know what side your bread is buttered on. Whether cousin or not, I am true blue. I accept the honor. Do you really have a cousin in Chicago? Adam Kostko and I, and Profgrrrrl are going to have a blog party soon. Care to join?
Posted by Veiled | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 11:00 PM
You're having a blog party in Chicago and didn't invite B-dub?! How could I possibly attend?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-12-04 11:08 PM
63 comments expended on this. Jeebus, that's a lot of angst to be spending on this question. At this point, I think you're morally obligated as a man to (a) get in touch with her, (b) sleep with her, and (c) drop her immediately afterwards, preferably by checking caller-id and never answering the phone when she calls, until she intuits the end. And to blog about all the here-and-wheretofores, obviously.
That could just be the alchohol talking, though.
Posted by somecallmetim | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:00 AM
Finally, some advice I can use. But better yet, I'll answer and tell her I can't understand a word she's saying, because of her accent. I'll have no idea how it was that I could understand her before.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:06 AM
Somecallmetim,
This is Ogged, not Tucker Max.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 7:20 AM
You know when I left last night there were only 33 comments?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 8:12 AM
You know, I did once live in Chicago ...
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 8:29 AM
God, thank god some of the women chimed in finally, I was starting to worry. Ogged (saying this nicely): There is a remote possibility that this girl might not want to date you. Nothing sets us off kilter more than realizing that someone whose league we imagine ourselves to be out of, actually thinks they are out of ours, but it happens all the time. Also: You had more fun with her that anyone else at the party. So I second (or third or fourth) theinvitation to lunch or some other mutual-interest based activity like coffee, tennis, or a lecture on Derrida. Belle and Bitchphd already express this with more eloquence than I, but girls can read body language like anyone else and she is going to get what is going on, without any trouble.
And when you get together for that first non-date activity, nothing has worked so well for me for putting the let's-be-friends card on the table as an good confessional let me tell you about my lovelife or dating travails. Because then she will know without a shadow of a doubt you are not into her, and many girls love having a guy-friend that they can turn to advice for on romantic issues.
Posted by Claudia | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 8:38 AM
Well, p-grrrrl, I'll have to check with my cousins to see if any have moved their mothers to Turkey, or whether that's a new, not-so-popular come on. Damn, but it would be funny if you'd dated my cousin.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:11 AM
Ok, I think I've got it: make contact, she can take care of herself, quit being such a queen. Check, check, check.
Now, I have to bring this up with the Swede, and we don't usually chitchat much, and often misunderstand each other, what with the language thing and all...this'll be interesting; a one-person game of telephone...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:14 AM
Well, this guy actually was from Turkey. I suspect his mama has always resided there.
Guess I'm not going to be marrying into the Ogged family ... unless that was one of your cousins who growled like a dog and nipped my cheek after kissing me. I'm. Not. Kidding. (wish I were)
Now, when you call for the non-date will you post it at the top level so we can have more fun generating comments?
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:26 AM
PHONE CALL LIVEBLOGGING
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:33 AM
who growled like a dog and nipped my cheek after kissing me.
Good lord. But, you know, dogs (and feet) are considered dirty in my culture, so I don't think any of my cousins would use that particular animagical transformation. Neigh like a horse, maybe...
(Of *course* I'll post all about it; have I shown any limits at all to my self-involvement?)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:33 AM
You're having a blog party in Chicago and didn't invite B-dub?! How could I possibly attend?
Oh great. Now we're all going to have to try to chivy you into going to another party???
This has got to stop.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:35 AM
Crap, you're right Mitch. But I don't need encouragement for this one; any sane blogger would want to get down with Kotsko, Veiled and p-grrrl...but not without B-dub!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:39 AM
Sorry, of course I meant "p-grrrrl."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:40 AM
any sane blogger would want to get down with Kotsko, Veiled and p-grrrl
Sure, but what does that observation have to do with you, ogged?
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:47 AM
Oops, that was me just above. But then, you already knew that, what with your evil IP address reading skillz.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:48 AM
It's a classy joint where people take credit for their anonymous cheap shots.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:50 AM
Ogged is trying to imitate a sane man. For as it says in the Tsurezuregusa, or Essays in Idleness, of Yoshida Kenko:
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:53 AM
Guns, germs, steel, and that crazy-ass, not-enough-rigid-dichotomies way of thinking...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:55 AM
Actually the part I was thinking of occurs immediately before the part I just quoted, oh well. Ogged, can you explain that last comment? Its meaning is opaque to me (and I feel it concerns me, since you've tried to slander—I feel the term is not too strong for the damage you've done to me!—with some supposed fetishization of rigid dichotomies in the past).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:59 AM
Here I am, refusing to party without you, and you're still on your guard. Oh well, probably wise. Let me know if you want to go to Fat Willy's around Christmas time. I'm serious.
Anyway, the comment: this, and.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 10:06 AM
I know what the book is and (at a very broad level) its thesis--would I have had to have read it to understand why you mentioned it?
I'd be totally up for going to Fat Willy's, but I want to tell you up front, I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with you, ok? I just don't want to lead you on.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 10:25 AM
You presumptuous ass. We're through.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 10:40 AM
What I intended was to signal rejection of Kenko's point by lumping it in with the other reasons "the East" was outstripped by Europe in terms of global power.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 10:44 AM
It's a classy joint where people take credit for their anonymous cheap shots.
Um, not to nitpick, but I think you transposed "classy" and "cheap" in the above sentence.
By the way, what's the record for most comments on an Unfogged post?
(hmmm, perhaps I should have asked that question in a separate comment, but I'm trying to avoid moral hazard)
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:03 AM
but it's not like I want to date her
and why the hell not? You're
1) clearly attracted to her,
2) unattached
Spending time with someone you;re attracted to is a date. The only reasons not to date are
1) fear of rejection - which means you're a wuss
2) even though you're clearly attracted to her, she's not "hot" enough for .... whom exactly? Looks fade, but "endearingly goofy" and "smart" pretty much last forever.
Take a chance and get to know her, it s just a date, not a fucking arranged marriage.
Posted by fasteddie | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:05 AM
Spending time with someone you;re attracted to is a date.
Das ist vollig falsch dargestellt, my good man.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:06 AM
Righto, b-dub. Is not, fast. And those aren't the "only" reasons either. Z.B., I have no desire to subject my life to the upheaval of dating someone whose home is in another country. And now this really has become presumptuous.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:17 AM
But has it become record-breaking???
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:19 AM
Mitch, I'm pretty sure this is the most ever. Amazingly, it's been on-topic (uh, for the most part).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:20 AM
googling for 'site:unfogged.com "remember info" 94' turns up nothing relevant, so this is probably the most.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:41 AM
Smarter than he looks.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:44 AM
Christ, are you boys still talking about this? Ogged, what won't you do to avoid making a phone call to ask someone for lunch?
Clearly, your neurosis about not calling the Swede and her grad student friend is almost as strong as my not-grading neurosis. Wow.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:50 AM
Come on, people, three more and it's triple digits.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 11:54 AM
Alright. I emailed the Swede, authorizing her to pass my email address on to her friend. Everyone happy now?
I guess I really should post this up top.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:02 PM
Ogged, haven't you read profgrrrrl's reviews of "He's Just Not that Into You"? Giving her *your* number instead of asking for *hers* signals that you're not into her.
Oh wait, that's what you want. I'm getting confused.
If you respond, it'll be at 100 posts. Ben will be so pleased.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:06 PM
First!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:36 PM
Hooray! I didn't want to be the one to put us over the top.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 12:39 PM
This isn't really relevant, and I hate to pry, but I have to say, I'm now terribly curious: why are you so sure you won't want to date her? It seems that you are available, yes? Are you one of those people who instantly knows whether or not you'll ever be romantically interested in someone, for no obvious reason? I've always found that a fascinating and somewhat incomprehensible phenomena. I mean, it seems like a given that she's a very attractive person. . . Just curious, apologies if I've offended or pried.
Posted by Saheli | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 3:08 PM
Are you one of those people who instantly knows whether or not you'll ever be romantically interested in someone, for no obvious reason?
I guess the short answer is yes. There was another answer above (you're forgiven for not having read every single comment): "I have no desire to subject my life to the upheaval of dating someone whose home is in another country."
There are other reasons, but listing reasons why you won't date a particular person, as opposed to say, half the world, is uncomfortable.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 3:16 PM
It's the Zaphod Beeblebrox maneuver, Saheli.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 3:17 PM
Now that we've passed three digits, let's go for four!!!
Let's see, to stay on topic: at the party, were there other swim instructees? Did you get to trade stories about "look at my butt"?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:13 PM
Four's doable. To email or not to email: the ur-situation, infinitely discussable.
I don't think it would have been appropriate to bring up "look at my butt": what if she hadn't invited other instructees to do it?
In fact, I think some of the people there didn't even know she was a swimmer. Then others knew her because she was a local celebrity in her hometown in Sweden.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:21 PM
Then others knew her because she was a local celebrity in her hometown in Sweden.
Because of her butt?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:43 PM
And oh, I almost forgot:
Dude, you've got to e-mail her!!!!
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:44 PM
If this is how we're going to get to four digits, I'm not sure it's worth it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:44 PM
Now we've got to encourage you to go for four digits? After already getting you to go to two parties and contact the grad student??
This whole "I kind of want to, but then again . . ." thing is getting out of hand, ogged.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:47 PM
Mitch, I hate to say it, but you're no longer part of the solution.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-13-04 9:49 PM
I think Mitch is right. It's really time to stand on your own two feet, ogged. It's the manly thing to do.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-14-04 1:26 AM
We need to get baa to say that going to four digits is lame. That'll do the trick.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 12-14-04 5:49 AM
Ogged went to two parties?
Speaking of baa, his absence is this thread is rather conspicuous, non?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-14-04 9:09 AM
Come to think of it, I've never seen baa and Magik Johnson in the same comment thread before. Coincidence?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-14-04 9:39 AM