Re: Fisk's having "...the great graciousness to say that he probably would have done the same thing, were he in the place of the people who beat him."
I don't know. It seemed to me at the time that Fisk was also saying that if he'd been in New York on the night of September 11, 2001 he'd have been torching felafel stands--that blaming members of an ethnic group for deeds committed by other members of that ethnic group was a normal, human, and to some degree appropriate thing to do.
Is that ice skating rule really hard and fast? Because I'm in the process of moving to Toronto, and I really need to learn as part of the assimilation process. I'm scared but.
The question is whether he really does say that "blaming members of an ethnic group for deeds committed by other members of that ethnic group was a normal, human, and to some degree appropriate thing to do." No doubt he says it's normal and human. I'm not sure he says it's appropriate. (And the NY analogy is just--literally--inflammatory. What are you, shrill?)
In fact, this is a pretty tough call.
I couldn't see for the blood pouring down my forehead and swamping my eyes. And even then, I understood. I couldn't blame them for what they were doing. In fact, if I were the Afghan refugees of Kila Abdullah, close to the Afghan-Pakistan border, I would have done just the same to Robert Fisk. Or any other Westerner I could find.
"Couldn't blame" and "would have done just the same" don't strike me, in context, as endorsements, but a recognition of human failings. And I think we ought to read Fisk as generously as possible here because of this:
At one point a screaming teenager had turned to my driver and asked, in all sincerity: "Is that Mr Bush?"
These are honest-to-goodness backwards people from a godforsaken place. What Fisk says about doing the same in their place is indubitably true; the question is whether this sort of paternalism (borne, I still maintain, of graciousness) is ever appropriate.
I don't hold Fisk to be as scum-of-the-earth as some, but I do hold him in very ill repute, based upon an endless serious of remarkably inaccurate judgments, in my view, endlessly offensively presented. It's not for nothing that bin Laden in his last but one statement went out of his way to praise Fisk as "neutral" and explained to the people of the west how much they needed to read him. I don't think it takes either a crazed reaction to 9/11 or a brutishly mindless right-wing POV to find Fisk, overall, to be a very poor piece of work (and not unworthy of being name-called, much as I generally have little sympathy for such). (And I feel I was being remarkably kind to James Wolcott in not blogging in response to his eye-poppingly mind-boggling post the other day about how the neogism "fisking" came into being because nasty right-wingers wanted a word so close to "fisting"; although not a big user of any of the variations of the word, gosh, somehow I went three-and-a-quarter years being familiar with the usages without realizing that everyone actually was talking about "fisting."
That was one of the fucking stupidest things I've ever read on a blog.
Though you've said plenty, Gary, can you say more about what you find so offensive about Fisk? My impression of him is that he's quite "left" and his coverage of Israel shades close to anti-semitism according to some, but he's also a brave reporter who's told a lot of stories from the middle-east that wouldn't otherwise have been told.
And I thought Wolcott made a good point. Go figure.
"That was one of the fucking stupidest things I've ever read on a blog."
Gary, I think Walcott made up the "fisting" etymology as a way of tainting "fisking" for (presumably homophobic) "warbloggers", or as a way of slipping in an taunting insult.
Re: Fisk's having "...the great graciousness to say that he probably would have done the same thing, were he in the place of the people who beat him."
I don't know. It seemed to me at the time that Fisk was also saying that if he'd been in New York on the night of September 11, 2001 he'd have been torching felafel stands--that blaming members of an ethnic group for deeds committed by other members of that ethnic group was a normal, human, and to some degree appropriate thing to do.
It left a bad taste in my mouth.
Posted by Brad DeLong | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 12:45 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 12:58 PM
On the other hand, there are joys in driving an SUV:
1- shining your light into the eyes of the lesser vehicles;
2- taking up space--if you careful enough, more than you really need;
3- forcing others to drive around you--if you feel like it (or you can be courteous, but why bother?);
4- knowing that in a crash, you will most likely walk maybe not even with bruises;
5- if you live where it snows, the advantages are self explanatory;
6- can look down onto lesser vehicles and see what they are doing and possibly even get a pick a pulled up skirt or two;
Posted by Fuel | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 1:09 PM
Isn't Fisk kind of a leftist wingnut?
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 1:51 PM
Is that ice skating rule really hard and fast? Because I'm in the process of moving to Toronto, and I really need to learn as part of the assimilation process. I'm scared but.
Posted by billyfrombelfast | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 1:56 PM
Here is the original article.
The question is whether he really does say that "blaming members of an ethnic group for deeds committed by other members of that ethnic group was a normal, human, and to some degree appropriate thing to do." No doubt he says it's normal and human. I'm not sure he says it's appropriate. (And the NY analogy is just--literally--inflammatory. What are you, shrill?)
In fact, this is a pretty tough call.
"Couldn't blame" and "would have done just the same" don't strike me, in context, as endorsements, but a recognition of human failings. And I think we ought to read Fisk as generously as possible here because of this:
These are honest-to-goodness backwards people from a godforsaken place. What Fisk says about doing the same in their place is indubitably true; the question is whether this sort of paternalism (borne, I still maintain, of graciousness) is ever appropriate.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:13 PM
Ah. "Austrian cosmologist." I had read that as "Austrian cosmetologist"...
Posted by Brad DeLong | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:26 PM
I don't hold Fisk to be as scum-of-the-earth as some, but I do hold him in very ill repute, based upon an endless serious of remarkably inaccurate judgments, in my view, endlessly offensively presented. It's not for nothing that bin Laden in his last but one statement went out of his way to praise Fisk as "neutral" and explained to the people of the west how much they needed to read him. I don't think it takes either a crazed reaction to 9/11 or a brutishly mindless right-wing POV to find Fisk, overall, to be a very poor piece of work (and not unworthy of being name-called, much as I generally have little sympathy for such). (And I feel I was being remarkably kind to James Wolcott in not blogging in response to his eye-poppingly mind-boggling post the other day about how the neogism "fisking" came into being because nasty right-wingers wanted a word so close to "fisting"; although not a big user of any of the variations of the word, gosh, somehow I went three-and-a-quarter years being familiar with the usages without realizing that everyone actually was talking about "fisting."
That was one of the fucking stupidest things I've ever read on a blog.
And consider the competition.)
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:27 PM
I had read that as "Austrian cosmetologist"...
Give the ex some credit...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:27 PM
Though you've said plenty, Gary, can you say more about what you find so offensive about Fisk? My impression of him is that he's quite "left" and his coverage of Israel shades close to anti-semitism according to some, but he's also a brave reporter who's told a lot of stories from the middle-east that wouldn't otherwise have been told.
And I thought Wolcott made a good point. Go figure.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:33 PM
Billy, enjoy Toronto, and your broken limbs.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 3:44 PM
"That was one of the fucking stupidest things I've ever read on a blog."
Gary, I think Walcott made up the "fisting" etymology as a way of tainting "fisking" for (presumably homophobic) "warbloggers", or as a way of slipping in an taunting insult.
Posted by rilkefan | Link to this comment | 01-19-05 6:28 PM
vicodin http://vicodin.fromru.com ; Thanks!
Posted by vicodin | Link to this comment | 01-27-06 5:35 AM
lortab http://by-lortab.atspace.org ; Thanks!
Posted by lortab | Link to this comment | 01-27-06 5:35 AM