I would suggest it OK to be schtooping a student so long as there is no professor/student relationship. Of course, if the idea is forbidden and has been presented in a written form... then one has the choice of looking for another institution to work for or to acquiesce and accept the rules of the one whose name appear on one's paycheck.
I would think of grad students as more forbidden because of their increased involvement with faculty. Though we had a young instructor where I'm at attempt to date a grad student...so, apparantly it's OK.
As for undergrads, what is the problem? I'm thinking that probably it's assumed that, in general, it's not good for young girls to date guys who are a third again their age, or more, and the University is merely doing what it can to enforce this. (So while 19 year old girls can, and do, date 30 year old guys outside of the University, this is perfectly legal, but not to be encouraged. ) If this is the case, then from the University's standpoint, I think Ogged answer would be prudent.
If one isn't worried about the corrupting influence of older men on young women, then the worry is the corruption of the power relationship between student/faculty. The forbiddence of relationships could be akin to the forbiddence of bribes. We might re-ask the question in this way to seperate it from the problems of the first interpretation of the question. So, when is it acceptable to give a faclty member a rolex? When this happened to one of my profs, he turned it down, as the rich bastard was in his class. But I would think it would be acceptable for anyone the student wasn't in a power-relationship with, because outside of tha relatioship, a bribe couldn't exist.
First it's the beneficial influence of older men, then the corrupting influence ...
Anyway, I don't see an age-problem, just the possibility that the student will take a class with the professor (or even just in his department). If that could be absolutely ruled out as a possibility, it's fine by me (in principle).
"So, when is it acceptable to give a faclty member a rolex?"
Since I don't want to sound like an absolutist, I'm going to say "almost never." But I guess I mean "never." I just can't think of a situation in which it would not be inappropriate for a faculty member to accept a Rolex from a student.
It is okay if the relationship is consensual, and if the professor doesn't supervise or teach the student.
College students are adults. The fact that I (or anyone else) gets squee about 19yo women dating 35yo men is neither here nor there. Adults are entitled to do things that squee other people out.
I totally agree with you about the hyper-entitled students at the smaller schools and the expectation that we're supposed to be their mommies and daddies. I'm sure there's a place for that, but it ain't my cup of tea.
Lots of medical patients are adults, too. Doesn't mean their doctors are allowed to date them.
Seems to me that most arguments for consensual relations between faculty and students rest (at least implicitly, if not explicity) on some notion or other of the specialness of academia/academics. Many professions have ethical codes which ban relations between professional and client (eg, doctors and patients). Given the wide room for abuse of power, conflict of interest, perceived conflict of interest, why should academia be any different?
I agree with mcm on this. It's not quite as simple as "they're adults." There was a long thread about this on Crooked Timber a while back, and I'll quote one of my own rare moments of clarity from the comments there.
All "blanket bans" seem unfair, and particularly so in this case because the exceptions are heartwarming tales of amorous bliss.
But there's a major and, for dsquared, fatal, disanalogy between universities and corporations (or even hospitals and doctors' offices): the mission of the university is—in part and at least nominally—to guide and to teach. I'm surprised in loco parentis hasn't come up yet, because I think some parts of it are worth salvaging. Undergraduates—like everyone else, I'm willing to throw grad students to the dogs—are entrusted, and have entrusted themselves, to the university. Framing the issue in terms of "consent" is rhetorically effective, because it appeals to our by-now-almost-reflexive distaste for the PC Nanny Regime, but it glosses over the fact that, in the vast majority of cases, having sex with a youngin' who is in your thrall just isn't very nice.
The university, as a repository of knowledge (and even wisdom), isn't obligated to play dumb and treat all the individuals within its ambit as equal and equally competent actors. It's entirely consistent with the university's mission for it to say that it knows what's best for its undergraduates—in fact, I think there's a good case to be made that the failure to institute such a ban would be a dereliction.
Should the University then require undergrads to brush their teeth before bed and after each meal, make sure they wash behind their ears, accept or reject possible dates, impose a curfew, regulate food intake, permit or forbid social gatherings based on perceived notion of what is best for the student, permit or forbid books any student decides to read, programs to watch on TV, theatres to enjoy, have access to medical records for possible health issues to address, etc...etc... etc...?
in the vast majority of cases, having sex with a youngin' who is in your thrall just isn't very nice.
maybe, but it's fun.
Fuel,are you talking about Harding University? I met a young married couple from Harding on a train platform in Florence. (they looked just as puzzled as I was about where the hell the train was, so I assumed they were American and initiated a chat) They were in Europe on their own, traveling around and doing some language/culture studying, but, before they could go, they had to sign forms promising not to drink alcohol or any such, (though they were of age). I also noticed that, on this overnight train, they stayed in different cabins.
b-wo, I never took a side. There's the possibility of either..actually, I suppose if we're talking possibilities, it's possibly that corruption could flow the other way, too, from young to old. Certainly this possibility exists in Fontana's case.
Well, um... doctors are allowed to date people who are the patients of other doctors too, aren't they? I say as long as there is no scholastic relationship between the two, and won't be (I know, a difficult proposition, but not impossible) then they should go at it. Should the parents be able to sue? No. Listen, if she were going out with a 30 yo business man or politician, it would be a skidmark on his career and a concrete wall on his career path, but shite, should her parents sue him too?
What tweedledopey said. It is that simple *as long as the professor doesn't supervise or teach the student*. So, if you're fucking your prof, you don't take his/her classes. If you're fucking someone in your class, that's uncool, and you shouldn't do it. If you're fucking someone who wants you to supervise their dissertation, you regretfully decline. And so on.
I would say with your own students at the least not until after graduation. One of the things that surprised me greatly was the amount of flirtatious attention I received as a newly minted assistant prof. It was fun. It was pretty much harmless although it might well have had some of its intended effect on grading. One TA and I did a double blind experiment of sorts on that. Flirting seemed to have a small positive effect but not at a statistically significant level. But it also made me very aware of the power dynamics and how they can shape behaviors. Its a bit like a roleplaying fantasy in some ways - stylized and perhaps fetishized. More heat than light and not the basis of a relationship. Perhaps this has as much to do with how I approached the role of professor as well. Best job I'll ever have.
From a simple taking care of your career point of view it makes little sense to do this. When an under grad comes in to your office and shuts the door and starts telling you about how they really think you understand them in a way that goes beyond the professor student relationship and how they just know that your souls speak to eachother and she does so in a way that makes you think she needs help, do you really want relations with other undergrads as part of your rep when your department chair or the dean's office gets involved? This is an extreme case, but when it happened to me and my efforts to draw the proper lines led to repercussions it was well and good that my "student friendly" reputation stopped at actual friendliness. This is the sort of thing that can stick with you. Kind of a scarlet letter. Which especially speaks against using the undergrauate pool as a primary place to cruise.
Having said that, people meet. Things happen. And sometimes, the thunderbolt strikes. And how often does that happen? True love or great compatability conquers all, or at least it should. So I don't totally close the door on relations with those who you don't teach. But I'm wary.
I think that with graduate students in other divisions or departments relationships of any type are acceptable. But not in your own department.
The discussion to this point has rested on the assumption that the immature social skills of undergrads are a big part of the problem with this sort of relationship. I think the immature social skills of faculty need to be taken into account as well.
One TA and I did a double blind experiment of sorts on that.
How'd ya do that? Did you get Human Subjects Permission? When can we expect to see this written up? And why do I feel compelled to snark on one line from a very sensible post?
If it begins after graduation, then no problem.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 12:04 PM
I would suggest it OK to be schtooping a student so long as there is no professor/student relationship. Of course, if the idea is forbidden and has been presented in a written form... then one has the choice of looking for another institution to work for or to acquiesce and accept the rules of the one whose name appear on one's paycheck.
Posted by Fuel | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 12:36 PM
I would think of grad students as more forbidden because of their increased involvement with faculty. Though we had a young instructor where I'm at attempt to date a grad student...so, apparantly it's OK.
As for undergrads, what is the problem? I'm thinking that probably it's assumed that, in general, it's not good for young girls to date guys who are a third again their age, or more, and the University is merely doing what it can to enforce this. (So while 19 year old girls can, and do, date 30 year old guys outside of the University, this is perfectly legal, but not to be encouraged. ) If this is the case, then from the University's standpoint, I think Ogged answer would be prudent.
If one isn't worried about the corrupting influence of older men on young women, then the worry is the corruption of the power relationship between student/faculty. The forbiddence of relationships could be akin to the forbiddence of bribes. We might re-ask the question in this way to seperate it from the problems of the first interpretation of the question. So, when is it acceptable to give a faclty member a rolex? When this happened to one of my profs, he turned it down, as the rich bastard was in his class. But I would think it would be acceptable for anyone the student wasn't in a power-relationship with, because outside of tha relatioship, a bribe couldn't exist.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 12:36 PM
First it's the beneficial influence of older men, then the corrupting influence ...
Anyway, I don't see an age-problem, just the possibility that the student will take a class with the professor (or even just in his department). If that could be absolutely ruled out as a possibility, it's fine by me (in principle).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 12:46 PM
"So, when is it acceptable to give a faclty member a rolex?"
Since I don't want to sound like an absolutist, I'm going to say "almost never." But I guess I mean "never." I just can't think of a situation in which it would not be inappropriate for a faculty member to accept a Rolex from a student.
Posted by mcm | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 1:01 PM
It is okay if the relationship is consensual, and if the professor doesn't supervise or teach the student.
College students are adults. The fact that I (or anyone else) gets squee about 19yo women dating 35yo men is neither here nor there. Adults are entitled to do things that squee other people out.
I totally agree with you about the hyper-entitled students at the smaller schools and the expectation that we're supposed to be their mommies and daddies. I'm sure there's a place for that, but it ain't my cup of tea.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 1:30 PM
Lots of medical patients are adults, too. Doesn't mean their doctors are allowed to date them.
Seems to me that most arguments for consensual relations between faculty and students rest (at least implicitly, if not explicity) on some notion or other of the specialness of academia/academics. Many professions have ethical codes which ban relations between professional and client (eg, doctors and patients). Given the wide room for abuse of power, conflict of interest, perceived conflict of interest, why should academia be any different?
Posted by mcm | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 1:39 PM
I agree with mcm on this. It's not quite as simple as "they're adults." There was a long thread about this on Crooked Timber a while back, and I'll quote one of my own rare moments of clarity from the comments there.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 1:54 PM
Should the University then require undergrads to brush their teeth before bed and after each meal, make sure they wash behind their ears, accept or reject possible dates, impose a curfew, regulate food intake, permit or forbid social gatherings based on perceived notion of what is best for the student, permit or forbid books any student decides to read, programs to watch on TV, theatres to enjoy, have access to medical records for possible health issues to address, etc...etc... etc...?
Posted by Fuel | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 2:09 PM
in the vast majority of cases, having sex with a youngin' who is in your thrall just isn't very nice.
maybe, but it's fun.
Fuel,are you talking about Harding University? I met a young married couple from Harding on a train platform in Florence. (they looked just as puzzled as I was about where the hell the train was, so I assumed they were American and initiated a chat) They were in Europe on their own, traveling around and doing some language/culture studying, but, before they could go, they had to sign forms promising not to drink alcohol or any such, (though they were of age). I also noticed that, on this overnight train, they stayed in different cabins.
b-wo, I never took a side. There's the possibility of either..actually, I suppose if we're talking possibilities, it's possibly that corruption could flow the other way, too, from young to old. Certainly this possibility exists in Fontana's case.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 2:44 PM
Don't you start calling me "b-wo" too.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 2:46 PM
Just out of curiosity, is that the same Harding college that sponsored films like this?
Posted by aj | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 2:55 PM
Well, um... doctors are allowed to date people who are the patients of other doctors too, aren't they? I say as long as there is no scholastic relationship between the two, and won't be (I know, a difficult proposition, but not impossible) then they should go at it. Should the parents be able to sue? No. Listen, if she were going out with a 30 yo business man or politician, it would be a skidmark on his career and a concrete wall on his career path, but shite, should her parents sue him too?
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 3:00 PM
What tweedledopey said. It is that simple *as long as the professor doesn't supervise or teach the student*. So, if you're fucking your prof, you don't take his/her classes. If you're fucking someone in your class, that's uncool, and you shouldn't do it. If you're fucking someone who wants you to supervise their dissertation, you regretfully decline. And so on.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 3:19 PM
I thought that was accepted nomenclature. I'll use BenW.
aj, don't know, but I wouldn't doubt it.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 3:47 PM
You can call me "sir", thanks.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 6:27 PM
I can call you gay.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 3-05 7:51 PM
I would say with your own students at the least not until after graduation. One of the things that surprised me greatly was the amount of flirtatious attention I received as a newly minted assistant prof. It was fun. It was pretty much harmless although it might well have had some of its intended effect on grading. One TA and I did a double blind experiment of sorts on that. Flirting seemed to have a small positive effect but not at a statistically significant level. But it also made me very aware of the power dynamics and how they can shape behaviors. Its a bit like a roleplaying fantasy in some ways - stylized and perhaps fetishized. More heat than light and not the basis of a relationship. Perhaps this has as much to do with how I approached the role of professor as well. Best job I'll ever have.
From a simple taking care of your career point of view it makes little sense to do this. When an under grad comes in to your office and shuts the door and starts telling you about how they really think you understand them in a way that goes beyond the professor student relationship and how they just know that your souls speak to eachother and she does so in a way that makes you think she needs help, do you really want relations with other undergrads as part of your rep when your department chair or the dean's office gets involved? This is an extreme case, but when it happened to me and my efforts to draw the proper lines led to repercussions it was well and good that my "student friendly" reputation stopped at actual friendliness. This is the sort of thing that can stick with you. Kind of a scarlet letter. Which especially speaks against using the undergrauate pool as a primary place to cruise.
Having said that, people meet. Things happen. And sometimes, the thunderbolt strikes. And how often does that happen? True love or great compatability conquers all, or at least it should. So I don't totally close the door on relations with those who you don't teach. But I'm wary.
I think that with graduate students in other divisions or departments relationships of any type are acceptable. But not in your own department.
The discussion to this point has rested on the assumption that the immature social skills of undergrads are a big part of the problem with this sort of relationship. I think the immature social skills of faculty need to be taken into account as well.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 01- 4-05 8:01 AM
oops that was me up there....
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 01- 4-05 8:02 AM
I just can't think of a situation in which it would not be inappropriate for a faculty member to accept a Rolex from a student.
sigh... I'll just have to give that back, then.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 01- 4-05 8:17 AM
One TA and I did a double blind experiment of sorts on that.
How'd ya do that? Did you get Human Subjects Permission? When can we expect to see this written up? And why do I feel compelled to snark on one line from a very sensible post?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 4-05 11:02 AM