I like a world in which you can page experts on causation.
Does not the cook compel the stove to heat? Nay, verily, the cook doth turn the dial, which freeth the gas, which passeth the pilot, which doth free the flame to heat the pan, which heateth the okonomiyaki, full of air, and strange.
Yum, I discovered okonomiyaki one night in Kyoto with a bunch of guys from grad school. We shut the place down with an awesome chef who kept cooking us one more specialty and starting drinking kirin with us.
I've had it since at Japanese restaurants in the US, but not the great bar setting where they make it on a griddle right in front of you. I guess it stands to reason that New York and you elite coastal types would have lots of them.
Er, just in case it's not clear, #21 isn't me (the one who usually posts here and who runs the blog linked by all these comments). For all I know it really is someone named "Matt Weiner" who pronounces it the other way.
Before I start sounding like Larry Summers, I should say that an egalitarian dishwasher-emptying regime rules in our house, at least till we train either the kid or the cat to do it of their own accord.
Maybe you should wonder aloud what could cause the dishes to be put away in her presence. That is, you should do it in her presence.
That would yield a verbal analysis of dishwasher-emptying involving me as the main causal force. Which would probably prove accurate. Back to training the cat, I suppose.
Kieran, I suppose b-wo's intention was that your wondering aloud in her presence what could cause the dishes to be put away would itself in fact cause the dishes to be put away. I think that this is someone's analysis of intention spread between two people, but I forget whose.
b-wo, I'm not sure why you're confused, unless you're under the impression that I authored comment #21, which I did not. But to make things clear, I offer the following definitions of rhyme and homophony, with attendant illustrations.
Words X and Y are homophonic iff they are pronounced exactly the same. ex. 'foul'/'fowl'
Words X and Y rhyme (roughly) iff each contains a stressed syllable such that: the respective portions of the word beginning with the vowel sounds of the respective syllables are pronounced exactly the same; and the syllables themselves are not pronounced exactly the same. ex. 'bell'/'fell'; the respective portions are both pronounced 'ell'
(In the case in which the respective syllables are pronounced exactly the same, but the words themselves are not homophonic, the rhyme is, technically, wack. ex. 'introduction'/'reproduction'. Wack rhymes may be considered to be borderline cases of rhymes, or stipulated to be rhymes or not-rhymes; the question is immaterial here.)
"Weiner," my last name, is pronounced "wee'-ner." "Meaner" is pronounced "mee'-ner." "wee" and "mee" witness the existential quantifiers in the definition of 'rhyme'; the portion of the word beginning with the vowel sound of the syllable is pronounced "ee'-ner" in both words, but the syllables themselves are not pronounced the same.
The author of comment #21 purports, I believe, to pronounce his name "wy'-ner." But this does not rhyme with "whiner," which is also pronounced "wy'-ner." "wy" and "wy" will not witness the existentials in the definition of "rhymes" because these syllables are in fact pronounced exactly the same. (Though it may be that the author of comment #21 pronounces his name "vy'-ner," which does rhyme with "whiner"; proof is left to the reader.)
One might argue that the statement on my homepage is incorrect in any case; though "Matt Weiner" rhymes with "meaner," Matt Weiner very rarely rhymes with "meaner." To which I say: don't start none, won't be none.
The causation explanation that Unfogged.com so desperately cries out for is one which explains the correlation between thread-length and cock jokes. I'd think any acceptable explanation would also have to explain why the thread containing PG's reference to "panty-blogging" did not have 200+ comments, but instead petered ("petered"?) out pretty quickly.
Maybe not something one could post under one's own name, tho'; feel free to use the "Weiner" psued.
Kieran, I suppose b-wo's intention was that your wondering aloud in her presence what could cause the dishes to be put away would itself in fact cause the dishes to be put away. I think that this is someone's analysis of intention spread between two people, but I forget whose.
I believe it's known as the Jewish Mother Conjecture.
As far as naming and rhyme, you're right, Matt; I somehow neglected to notice that "meaner" and "Weiner" begin with different sounds.
And ogged, you might be giving me too much credit there.
b-wo, do you mean ogged is giving you too much credit, or are we going to have to get into the semantics of "might" as well? (Remember, ogged can read IPs.)
One might argue that the statement on my homepage is incorrect in any case; though "Matt Weiner" rhymes with "meaner," Matt Weiner very rarely rhymes with "meaner." To which I say: don't start none, won't be none.
I can't believe I missed the chance to give you some use/mention flack. On the other hand, you might argue that you frequently rhyme with "meaner," since you're always invoking that rhyme to explain pronunciation. A different sense of "to rhyme" perhaps, but still.
"Always," Labs? I can find two instances; unless you mean that I do so everyone someone downloads my homepage and reads that parenthesis.
Ben, I would say that my mom says that the reason I'm interested in ordinary language philosophy is that I don't speak it; but the last time I dropped that line, I wound up getting grilled on ordinary language philosophy for about half an hour by the 18-year-old daughter of the head of a search committee. So I won't do it.
Maybe Fontana Weinerlabs, so-called, is not Fontana Labs under an assumed name but an acquaintance of yourn, who knows that in real life you're always like "Hi I'm Matt Weiner, notice that my last name rhymes with 'meaner'". And stuff. Anyway, what ordinary language philosophy I've read I've liked.
Oh, shoot, my previous comment disappeared. Anyway, I just noticed that on Weinerlabs' reading the assertion "Matt Weiner (rhymes with 'meaner')" verifies itself in kind of a cool way. So I'll take it as a friendly amendment. (Some people will say that appositives like that parentheses aren't assertions, but accommodating that suggestion exceeds my current capacity for philosopho-geeking. SCMT, have you noticed the other way that Unfogged threads get huge?)
Well, the truth-teller can be consistently interpreted as false, and mine can't, I think. Actually it's kind of like this comment.
Some people think that exercitives like "I promise..." and "I declare..." are self-verifying assertions in this way, but I think that view is lame even if true.
Some people think that exercitives like "I promise..." and "I declare..." are self-verifying assertions in this way, but I think that view is lame even if true.
I think that finding that view lame is a good reason for holding it to be false, since I don't care what the fallouts for holding it to be true or false might be. (Like saying that 1 is not a prime number, even though its only divisors are itself and 1, because that makes some other things easier.)
This is a great time for me to say that "Weiner" has to be read "wee'-ner" in that sentence, even if the author intended it to be pronounced "wy'-ner" or "wai'-ner" (perhaps out of ignorance of how "meaner" is pronounced).
How do you determine what sentence is that sentence? For instance, I could imagine someone named Matt Weiner, but who pronounces the name "whiner", speaking aloud a sentence which, when written, would be characterwise identical to the one you've written--as an example of a false sentence. But, is that the same sentence? Imagine that he had independently hit on it.
The only question left to ask is whether this thread alone, or the Invisible Adjunct's site, did more to discourage people from grad school in the humanities.
b-wo, re 48: I meant that sentence as it appears in print. Don't have a great criterion for sentence individuation here, except that when pronunciation matters I mean to count spoken and written sentences as different.
Does not the heat compel the air to rise?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 3:41 PM
Paging Laurie Paul!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 4:55 PM
I like a world in which you can page experts on causation.
Does not the cook compel the stove to heat? Nay, verily, the cook doth turn the dial, which freeth the gas, which passeth the pilot, which doth free the flame to heat the pan, which heateth the okonomiyaki, full of air, and strange.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 5:02 PM
Okonomiyaki friggin' rullllllllllllezzzz!
Posted by praktike | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 5:52 PM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why praktike is up for a Koufax for "Best Commenter."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 5:55 PM
Ogged, what's the reference (if any)?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 6:06 PM
There's a prize for commenting and I wasn't nominated?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 6:22 PM
The reference is here, but it turns out I'm wrong: he isn't nominated, but that's a terrible oversight.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 7:15 PM
I meant the reference in comment 3, actually. If there was one.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 7:18 PM
I really should make up a book and try to shame you, but there was no reference, just inspired by your "Does not?" construction.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 7:20 PM
Well, congrats on the "full of air, and strange" part, which I thought was pretty evocative.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 7:21 PM
Well thank you kindly.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 7:25 PM
Yum, I discovered okonomiyaki one night in Kyoto with a bunch of guys from grad school. We shut the place down with an awesome chef who kept cooking us one more specialty and starting drinking kirin with us.
I've had it since at Japanese restaurants in the US, but not the great bar setting where they make it on a griddle right in front of you. I guess it stands to reason that New York and you elite coastal types would have lots of them.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 02-18-05 11:23 PM
Certainly the heat compels the air to rise, which compels the movement of the flakes. Hooray for transitivity!
Posted by Laurie Paul | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 5:54 AM
What do you know, she really could be paged.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 6:47 AM
Thanks, Laurie. Now rest up, because next week we're going do "What caused JFK's death?"
And Bob, you're right about okonomiyaki in New York.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 9:29 AM
Praktike was nominated for that award last year. (Did someone actually contact Laurie or did she just drop by?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 11:48 AM
There is a special alert that lets me know when causation assistance is needed. Like the Bat Signal.
Posted by Laurie Paul | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:07 PM
Just so there aren't a whole lot of major philosophers lurking round here, reading stuff I post under my own name.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:12 PM
I wish I could page her that efficiently. The dishwasher needs emptying again.
Posted by Kieran Healy | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:14 PM
Ha ha! But nothing prevents them from reading the stuff I post under your own name! I mean my own name, which rhymes with "whiner"!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:21 PM
Er, just in case it's not clear, #21 isn't me (the one who usually posts here and who runs the blog linked by all these comments). For all I know it really is someone named "Matt Weiner" who pronounces it the other way.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:26 PM
Before I start sounding like Larry Summers, I should say that an egalitarian dishwasher-emptying regime rules in our house, at least till we train either the kid or the cat to do it of their own accord.
Posted by Kieran | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:26 PM
Maybe you should wonder aloud what could cause the dishes to be put away in her presence. That is, you should do it in her presence.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:27 PM
Also, your name doesn't rhyme with "whiner," it's a homophone of "whiner," unless you pronounce the 'h'.
(This is the usual me again, as if there could be any serious doubt.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:28 PM
I quote from http://mattweiner.net:
Pls. to XXX-plain, on the assumption that you consistently differentiate between rhyme and homophony, how do you pronounce your name?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:31 PM
Maybe you should wonder aloud what could cause the dishes to be put away in her presence. That is, you should do it in her presence.
That would yield a verbal analysis of dishwasher-emptying involving me as the main causal force. Which would probably prove accurate. Back to training the cat, I suppose.
Posted by Kieran | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 12:32 PM
Kieran, I suppose b-wo's intention was that your wondering aloud in her presence what could cause the dishes to be put away would itself in fact cause the dishes to be put away. I think that this is someone's analysis of intention spread between two people, but I forget whose.
b-wo, I'm not sure why you're confused, unless you're under the impression that I authored comment #21, which I did not. But to make things clear, I offer the following definitions of rhyme and homophony, with attendant illustrations.
Words X and Y are homophonic iff they are pronounced exactly the same. ex. 'foul'/'fowl'
Words X and Y rhyme (roughly) iff each contains a stressed syllable such that: the respective portions of the word beginning with the vowel sounds of the respective syllables are pronounced exactly the same; and the syllables themselves are not pronounced exactly the same. ex. 'bell'/'fell'; the respective portions are both pronounced 'ell'
(In the case in which the respective syllables are pronounced exactly the same, but the words themselves are not homophonic, the rhyme is, technically, wack. ex. 'introduction'/'reproduction'. Wack rhymes may be considered to be borderline cases of rhymes, or stipulated to be rhymes or not-rhymes; the question is immaterial here.)
"Weiner," my last name, is pronounced "wee'-ner." "Meaner" is pronounced "mee'-ner." "wee" and "mee" witness the existential quantifiers in the definition of 'rhyme'; the portion of the word beginning with the vowel sound of the syllable is pronounced "ee'-ner" in both words, but the syllables themselves are not pronounced the same.
The author of comment #21 purports, I believe, to pronounce his name "wy'-ner." But this does not rhyme with "whiner," which is also pronounced "wy'-ner." "wy" and "wy" will not witness the existentials in the definition of "rhymes" because these syllables are in fact pronounced exactly the same. (Though it may be that the author of comment #21 pronounces his name "vy'-ner," which does rhyme with "whiner"; proof is left to the reader.)
One might argue that the statement on my homepage is incorrect in any case; though "Matt Weiner" rhymes with "meaner," Matt Weiner very rarely rhymes with "meaner." To which I say: don't start none, won't be none.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:04 PM
The causation explanation that Unfogged.com so desperately cries out for is one which explains the correlation between thread-length and cock jokes. I'd think any acceptable explanation would also have to explain why the thread containing PG's reference to "panty-blogging" did not have 200+ comments, but instead petered ("petered"?) out pretty quickly.
Maybe not something one could post under one's own name, tho'; feel free to use the "Weiner" psued.
(I kid b/c I love, Matt).
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:07 PM
B-wo is not at all under the impression that you posted #21, given that he posted it himself.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:14 PM
Kieran, I suppose b-wo's intention was that your wondering aloud in her presence what could cause the dishes to be put away would itself in fact cause the dishes to be put away. I think that this is someone's analysis of intention spread between two people, but I forget whose.
I believe it's known as the Jewish Mother Conjecture.
As far as naming and rhyme, you're right, Matt; I somehow neglected to notice that "meaner" and "Weiner" begin with different sounds.
And ogged, you might be giving me too much credit there.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:19 PM
b-wo, do you mean ogged is giving you too much credit, or are we going to have to get into the semantics of "might" as well? (Remember, ogged can read IPs.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:23 PM
I can't believe I missed the chance to give you some use/mention flack. On the other hand, you might argue that you frequently rhyme with "meaner," since you're always invoking that rhyme to explain pronunciation. A different sense of "to rhyme" perhaps, but still.
Posted by Fontana Weinerlabs | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:42 PM
Sometimes one wonders whether or not philosophers are competent speakers of their native language.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:48 PM
"Always," Labs? I can find two instances; unless you mean that I do so everyone someone downloads my homepage and reads that parenthesis.
Ben, I would say that my mom says that the reason I'm interested in ordinary language philosophy is that I don't speak it; but the last time I dropped that line, I wound up getting grilled on ordinary language philosophy for about half an hour by the 18-year-old daughter of the head of a search committee. So I won't do it.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 1:56 PM
Maybe Fontana Weinerlabs, so-called, is not Fontana Labs under an assumed name but an acquaintance of yourn, who knows that in real life you're always like "Hi I'm Matt Weiner, notice that my last name rhymes with 'meaner'". And stuff. Anyway, what ordinary language philosophy I've read I've liked.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:01 PM
Oh, shoot, my previous comment disappeared. Anyway, I just noticed that on Weinerlabs' reading the assertion "Matt Weiner (rhymes with 'meaner')" verifies itself in kind of a cool way. So I'll take it as a friendly amendment. (Some people will say that appositives like that parentheses aren't assertions, but accommodating that suggestion exceeds my current capacity for philosopho-geeking. SCMT, have you noticed the other way that Unfogged threads get huge?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:11 PM
Sort of like a truth-teller sentence, but with a performative twist.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:23 PM
"that parenthesis", if you please.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:28 PM
Well, the truth-teller can be consistently interpreted as false, and mine can't, I think. Actually it's kind of like this comment.
Some people think that exercitives like "I promise..." and "I declare..." are self-verifying assertions in this way, but I think that view is lame even if true.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:28 PM
touche, Wolfson.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:29 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:35 PM
Some people think that exercitives like "I promise..." and "I declare..." are self-verifying assertions in this way, but I think that view is lame even if true.
I think that finding that view lame is a good reason for holding it to be false, since I don't care what the fallouts for holding it to be true or false might be. (Like saying that 1 is not a prime number, even though its only divisors are itself and 1, because that makes some other things easier.)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:37 PM
What if Matt were mispronouncing his name, though?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:38 PM
This is a great time for me to say that "Weiner" has to be read "wee'-ner" in that sentence, even if the author intended it to be pronounced "wy'-ner" or "wai'-ner" (perhaps out of ignorance of how "meaner" is pronounced).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:42 PM
Matt, there's never a great time to say that.
I must now purchase groceries.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:50 PM
Maybe there should be an "About Matt Weiner" link on the main page that directs people to this and related comment threads.
Posted by aj | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 2:55 PM
How do you determine what sentence is that sentence? For instance, I could imagine someone named Matt Weiner, but who pronounces the name "whiner", speaking aloud a sentence which, when written, would be characterwise identical to the one you've written--as an example of a false sentence. But, is that the same sentence? Imagine that he had independently hit on it.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 3:05 PM
The only question left to ask is whether this thread alone, or the Invisible Adjunct's site, did more to discourage people from grad school in the humanities.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 4:17 PM
have you noticed the other way that Unfogged threads get huge?
Speaking of which, how about "lending a 'hand'" to put "us" "over the 'top'"?
Of course, the post is titled "Close Enough" . . .
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 4:24 PM
I have to say that IA's site actually helped make me believe I made the right choice in staying in grad school.
But I'm just about to head out the door, so I can't explain why just now.
Posted by aj | Link to this comment | 02-19-05 4:35 PM
b-wo, re 48: I meant that sentence as it appears in print. Don't have a great criterion for sentence individuation here, except that when pronunciation matters I mean to count spoken and written sentences as different.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 02-20-05 2:23 PM