In my experience, what really cheeses off the "childfree" people is that those of us with children go home from work at 5:00 and don't come in on weekends because, you know, we have children. My response is generally, "Your problem shouldn't be with parents, but with a boss that expects you to work uncompensated overtime. Quit being such a whiny assmartyr and just go home."
Wow, me too. Actually I go a little farther and say "Instead of griping that Joe Daddy gets off for his sprog's Dr appointment why don't you take time off and go see a movie? It sure beats bringing a snot-nosed crying kid to the Doctor."
Or, if you're brave, check out alt.support.childfree on usenet. This is a world where mothers are "moomies," as in "moo-cows," and kids are "crotch droppings."
You've never read asc? I did for several months. (Note: not because I wished to adopt the title, but because I knew someone who called themselves that.) There are some people who do not have children and would like to be left alone (not harassed about it), and there is another group that consists of people who do not have children because they ravingly detest them possibly to the point of killing them all if they could.
Charming lot.
If I read that right on thread entry, gluehorse was trolling from position two, because you said 'mommy' and mommies are BAAAADDDDD.
ash
['Bit like $cienos, really, except not as well organized.']
Since we were all once babies, even the currently childfree, it makes me wonder what they think of themselves?
Ditto. I was shocked when I first started reading the childfree stuff (out of curiosity) a few years ago. I mean, I totally get not having kids and being (a) irritated when people are nosy about this (whether you want kids or not) and (b) irritated from time to time about things like kids who are misbehaving in places where people might not want kids (movies, nice restaurant, etc.) but I don't get the hatred that these people spread. Neither the hatred nor the need to spread it.
They must hate their child selves. They must hate their breeder parents, too. For that matter, they should hate everyone for having been a child once, and some people double for having had kids even if those kids are grown and no longer the object of their ire.
Damn you Ogged. I have a vague appreciation for the scale of vileness on the internets and am aware of some specific instances, but I didn't know about this. Now I do. If only Lacuna Inc. really existed.
Actually, the better question would be, how is it that I ever manage to be civil?
*calling from high up in the oak tree*
Do you ever manage?
Seriously though, and not that you need me to tell you this, you're remarkably civil, and patient, near most all the time. I'm just a sucker for an easy (and probably cheap) shot.
Apostropher -- the problem, thanks to the damned Internets and the little angel's early bed time is that here I am procratsinatin' on Unfogged just exactly as if I was in the office.
I had not idea that anything like this existed. Its horrifiying. The closest I'd seen were colleagues who were very into the politics of queerdom who referred to people like me genererally as "the breeders." There was a cow kind of a reference there. But the rhetoric came from feeling pushed to the outside by the dominant cultural paradigm etc. These same colleagues give nice shower gifts too.
But to decide to be an anti mom troll? There is some creepy creepy shit out on the Internets. ugh. I want to shower.
benton, I actually have a tshirt that says BREEDER on it (in reference to this book, which I recommend by the way). I used to wear it around my gay neighborhood. It was always good for a laugh.
Which is just to say yes, there is a huge difference between the queers calling us straights "breeder" and the childphobic assholes doing so.
Although I suppose occasionally a gay person might also be a childphobic asshole. In which case it's not okay.
BPHD Hip Mama's survival guide was a kind of an antidote to the "Girlfriend's guide to..." which was a sort of antidote to "What to expect...." so I'm familiar with at least one of the authors. A forward by Dan Savage? Far out.
This part, in the Amazon review, though, is priceless: "Voices of mothers--the real in-the-trenches voices of mothers--always threaten the status quo."
I'm reminded of the old Monty Python line: I do all my best acting in a trench. And now I have to worry if I buy it that it could turn out my wife is just some wannabe poser mother as opposed to a real in the trenches one.
Your recommendation does them a lot more good than they do themselves.
If you buy it, do it through my Amazon link. I almost created a dedicated link in the comments, but decided that as this isn't my blog that would be kind of obnoxious.
Less obnoxious, of course, than what I just wrote, but hey.
Ariel Gore is awesome. But the best story in there is the one by Allison Crews called "When I was Garbage," about her pregnancy at, I think, 15 or 16. It's fucking awesome.
Here it is, online. Read that and tell me if the last sentence doesn't bring you near tears.
I am a sap. And once upon a time I taught kids of this age who were in a variety of dire straits. I don't recall anyone with a voice like this though. She had me near tears at
"Fantasies of virgin-white wedding dresses and sponge painted nurseries unfolded on those blank pages...",
But what will haunt me is that my little guy loves Bob Marley too. Many is the day I rocked him to sleep on my shoulder listening to it.
And I know nothing about the adoption process. But that was seriously disturbing stuff. Do you know to what extent are the contacts with the adoptive mother and the biological mother structured for the sake of one or the other? Because the thought that you giving up your unborn child is going to so specifically and explicitly serve to help someone else get over losing their unborn is just not the plane on which I would have thought those discussions should rest.
Heh, pseudonymous kid went to sleep listening to the Blackeyed Peas. It conked him out like a light almost every time. Too weird.
I think that open adoption is a great idea, but I believe--and Dan Savage's Kid talks about this--that the agreements are basically unenforcable and usually it's the adoptive parents who have most of the power once the adoption takes place. I have a close friend, actually, who gave a child up for open adoption. The family has since moved out of the country and she hasn't heard from them in ages.
Now that my little one is a talker and a walker, he still loves the Pogues. Which is bad because there are only so many Pogue songs from which you want him randomly shouting out bits of lyrics. (No more Fairytale of New York).
But its not as awesome as "why does mama say knock you out." I remember seeing an interview with Chuck D where he talked about how that album taught him he could be "hard" without cursing. Of course, it was soon after that he appeared on Newsradio, albeit with Phil Hartman.
Now that my little one is a talker and a walker, he still loves the Pogues. Which is bad because there are only so many Pogue songs from which you want him randomly shouting out bits of lyrics.
My kids love Lorelei, off Peace and Love, and the lyrics are very harmless. Sadly, they also love In my blue heaven, which is less so.
I think he and I exchanged a an e-mail or three or so, which means mine is also 1, but it's possible my memory is confusing a newsgroup exchange, in which case I'm either a 298 or a 2. After all, we're talking about last century.
I'm only a young 'un online, though; I didn't get to Usenet until after the Great Renaming; on the other hand, this was entirely due to poverty, not lack of knowledge; I was being sent monthly snailmail print-out compilations of sf-lovers on ARPA-Net by friends (well, Ben Yalow, actually) starting around 1979.
Jesus. I remember the very early days of usenet. And thinking about whether we could use Rec-Sport -Pro-Wrestling as a source, when constructing "Professional Wrestling as a Predictive Indicator of Regime CHange and Conflict...." which was a paper my colleagues and I thought about writing in the early 1990s. The scary thing was that in some ways, RSPW et al had goofy/geeky/sweet characteristics that I like about Unfogged...
I'm childfree and I have better things to do than go out of my way to say nasty things to people that have children. Not all of us childfree folk are terrible. And if you consider the childfree people to be terrible just because we prefer to live a life without having any children, then you're no better than those childfree folk that go out of their way to insult those with children.
A lot of the issues with mothers and other parents is that they expect that we will find their little darlings very precious. I am certainly not childfree, as I love children and do plan on having some of my own, but some kids are just brats. And the bratty kids are the ones with the bratty parents who think it's "oh sew cuh-yoot" that little Timmy just threw up. These are the parents who will allow their children to throw tantrums in the store, the ones who claim to not be able to control their children, the ones who fight for their children when their child has lost.
Case in point of that last example, my mother's friend's son threw a chair at a kid and got expelled. Now, this kid has been diagnosed with ODD and is very borderline on being diagnosed with CD. So this is a very believeable story, especially when he has a history of violence in school and his entire class saw him do it. However, the mother's friend sure ran up to school right quick and started defending him. No way little Paul could have done that, he's such a sweet child. (This is the child that once looked my father straight in the eye at age 6 and told him to go fuck himself).
Those are "moomies." Those are people who shouldn't be allowed to breed. Have your babies, by all means, but raise your children properly and teach them to behave in public.
What no one seems to be realizing here is that there are two kinds of parents: those who actually raise their children, and those who expect the rest of the world to accommodate them. The former earn the title of "parents". The latter are breeders. Not every childfree person hates kids and trolls on journals, just like not every parent is terrible. But there are puh-lenty of parents who let their kids slap their grimy hands on my stuff, run into me with the shopping cart, take things out of my hands, and then smile and say, "Isn't he the cuh-yootest little thing?" No, he isn't, and if you don't stop him from ruining my $200 shoes you'll be buying me another pair.
Parenting, like any other lifestyle choice, is not for everyone. Personally, I hate bratty kids, so my intent is to never have one. And since I know myself well enough to know that I couldn't be a good, consistent, caring parent, the kind who would raise a non-bratty kid, I consider my decision to not reproduce a good one. I'm sick to death of people telling me I'll change my mind, or that I'm selfish. If I told you that I hated cats, would you insist that my life could never possibly be complete without one? Of course not, and kids are no different. And I daresay I've put considerably more thought into my decision than most people put into their decision to reproduce.
Bottom line: not all childfree people hate kids. Some of us just know our limits.
Actually, childfree doesn't mean we hate kids. In fact, most are horrified when we see the articles of parents beating and drowning/torturing kids and we're wondering why they even had kids if they treat them like animals. A lot of us are simply disillusioned by motherhood or fatherhood because those of you who do have kids tend to not discipline them or teach them to mind their manners. I've never hated children myself but I've always had the tendency to friend adults ever since I was a child. No, I never had any self hate as a child because I wasn't talked to as though I were a child in three worded sentences and I minded adults and respected people. When I was younger, children still respected adults but some how, all that got destroyed and children disrespect adults. To be quite frank, I wouldn't want to have my children surrounded by this and since it doesn't seem as though this is going to stop, I'd prefer to not have children. Should I ever have children, which is very unlikely, I'd adopt. I don't need to spawn in order to feel fulfilled in life. I am very fulfilled with my life as myself and as a married women. I love myself and I love my husband. We don't need children. We're very content with eachother's company and the statistics of marriage dissatisfaction from scholastic journals of people having children don't make it seem better. I never married to have children, I married for companionship.
While there are those who do despise children, you can hardly blame them. You people who have kids (maybe not YOU specifically but most) don't discipline your children. You don't teach them to have manners. Children know since infancy when you say no they know they shouldn't do it. That's all an infant needs. No physical contact AT ALL, just a simple "no." You underestimate your children's intelligence and think they couldn't possible comprehend when they're vocabulary is expanding at an exponential level once their minds start to absorb words. You also think that your child is so special and everyone will make an exception. That does not let your child surpass the egotistical age that three to five year olds go through. Of course embracing one self is always what people should do but you all don't know what you're doing.
And no, you don't need to give birth to know these things. It's called education and common sense. Giving birth doesn't give you any more knowledge or else I wouldn't have to see the news where a father threw his daughter off a bridge in Europe or where a mother drowned her kids in the tub.
I myself am childfree. I have no desire to have children or be around them. This doesn't mean I hate children. This doesn't mean I would go out of my way to harm/kidnap/otherwise hurt anyone's children. I would avoid them at all costs.
It's just like this. Some people don't like dogs. Some don't like cats. Some don't like birds. And some just don't like children. It doesn't mean that any childfree/dog-disliking/cat-disliking person would necessarily harm or otherwise threaten a child, dog, or cat... it just means that they don't want to be around them and don't appreciate the company of what they dislike.
However, there are exceptions to every rule. I like a few children. My father likes a few cats. My mother likes a few dogs. We do not like them all. That's just how it is.
There are some childfree that spread hatemongering. There are some who just want to be left alone.
Most are simply annoyed by the fact that good parenting doesn't seem to happen anymore. Parents are too busy being their child's friend and worrying that they will somehow stunt their child's mental growth by enforcing rules and applying discipline when needed.
"Crotch droppings" does not mean all children. The term applies to whiney, spoiled, bratty children who throw temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store/movie theater/public place/ad nauseum and gets no response from the parent.
"Moomies/Moos" applies only to mothers who are not parenting. As a cow normally ignores the offspring except when suckling, such does a mother who ignores her children rather than teaching them how to properly behave.
"Duhdies" applies to fathers who don't parent, and usually are caught standing still with a dazed expression on his face while his children run amok and basically make nuisances of themselves.
Please don't confuse the childfree with child-haters. Most childfree weblogs are simply places where childfree go to rant about the children and parents that have somehow annoyed them, and most things said are tongue-in-cheek.
I'm childfree. I hate most kids. I definitely hate parents who don't parent their kids.
I do not hate parents who teach their children manners, and right from wrong.
There is a difference.
Oh, and one last thing. If you're such a wonderful mother, what in the hell are you doing online reading all this "horrible" childfree literature? Shouldn't you be parenting your kids, or something?
"Of course, there are lots of fucked up people on the internets, but the point, as my moomie friend informed me, is that these fucked up people flock to the mommy blogs, and leave nasty comments and send vile emails."
As someone who's been involved in a childfree community for a while, I'd like to inform you that (gasp!) it does indeed go both ways. Idiot breeders who can't wrap their head around someone choosing a different lifestyle - and by gum just won't stand for it! - make a habit of trolling childfree bloggers and communities all the time.
Now, if you really want to huddle together and cry about how "eeevil" the childfree are, that's your prerogative. Any time you want to step out of your little bubbles, the real world is waiting.
Are you people fucking kidding me? You don't like kids - fine; I don't like some of them either, for roughly the reasons you describe. But I don't sit around inventing words for parents and children and then (and this is what kills me) creating an ethical framework that justifies the use of the terms. I don't go searching the web for people who disagree with me to try and convert them. Jeebus. That's exactly where irritating or even funny moves into crazy. Wouldn't your time be better spent working on the Cloning Collective or whatever the Great Master Plan is?
Alright, it's considered wrong to say, "All white people are like THIS" and "All black people are like THAT", so why can't we stop to think for a minute that maybe, just MAYBE, not all Childfree people think, act, and believe exactly the same way. Now, taking this moment to consider this lil idea of individuality, perhaps Childfree people are only tied together by one common thought. ie: They wish to remain Childfree. In fact, wait, yes... That is how it is! On the Childfree communities that I frequent there are varying views of parents and children, and there is a varied set of reasons for wishing to remain Childfree. I admit, I hate children. I won't hide that fact, or try to pander to anyone with platitudes of LOVING them, REALLY, or anything like that. I do know there are Childfree people who do love kids, and I accept this. It is there right. I hate that people would judge all Childfree people as hating kids just because I do. Of course, I also would never wish any ill upon children just because they are children. After all, I don't really like dogs, but I'd be damned if I want to see one hurt. No living creature should have to suffer. Also, "moomies" is quite far removed from "moo-cow". Anyone who thinks that is what it is for is VERY wrong. MOO = Mother Obsessed with Offspring. Hell, there are parents who hate their kids. If anything is really WRONG, it's that. So long as we aren't harming children, who cares. If a truly childfree person harasses the blogs of mothers, they need to ignore them. Even if it is just a troll pretending to be childfree they should still ignore them. Ban the twit, call it a day, and continue enjoying life. Also, whatever the parents do, they should try not to be mindless breeders. Good parents are awesome, and highly in demand! THE CHILDFREE LOVE GOOD PARENTS!!!
Are you people fucking kidding me? You don't like kids - fine; I don't like some of them either, for roughly the reasons you describe. But I don't sit around inventing words for parents and children and then (and this is what kills me) creating an ethical framework that justifies the use of the terms.
People rant and talk. It's what they do. People hang out with likeminded people, and they rant and talk about things. It's one of the reasons communities exist. So people with something in common can get together and relate to one another.
I don't go searching the web for people who disagree with me to try and convert them.
Oh good. Neither do we. We hate when people do that. We've had morons on several of the CF communities I'm a member of before come in and spam the place with how we'll regret our choices, and that we're sinners, etc... Gets so old so fast.
She's not a troll. I have seen her on several communities and she is really anything but. I think you just don't like that she is eloquent and to-the-point, and can do something other than whine, "Troooooooll!"
Austro, considering that goescrunch was attempting to clarify the workings of the childfree community in a rather polite manner and you're just being flat-out insulting, perhaps you should reconsider who you're applying the "troll" tag to.
Goescrunch, I really don't appreciate your presence here, or any of the other childfrees. We have enough problems trying to parent as it is, we don't have time to debate finer points of whatever childfree is. We just need to slap a label on something and move on.
Because their lives just wouldn't be complete if they couldn't have a label to whine about, I suppose, rather than getting the hell offline and PARENTING their children.
But to spell it out. I was not accusing HER of trolling simpyl pointing out the take one might have on what went previously and why others might not share her point of view on here.
You call it ignorance, I call it convenience. This falls into one of those areas where the outspoken childfree people have defined the term, whether you like it or not. Childfree = child haters and harmers. Perhaps you should consider a different name, because quite possibly spending the rest of your life saying "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!" seems to be more time-consuming than it really ought to be.
"ooooooh no. someone's kid is throwing a tantrum. i was raised well and i never cried out loud because i never cried in public because i was raised by angels. "
jesus fucking christ. get over it. you don't like kids? fine. you don't like how some people raise (or don't) their kids? fine. chances are you pulled the same shit at least once when you were a kid, and probably more. oh but you grew out of it? congratulations. so does 99% of the rest of the population. i personally never did. i still take a shit whenever, wherever I want; cry when I can't buy myself a pack of candy and sometimes will sit down and refuse to leave the store until I can buy that pack of candy.
do you get pissed off at people who do jobs different then yours because they suck at it? do you go around telling them that they suck and that they shouldn't have ever started working even though you haven't experienced that line of work?
not liking kids is one thing. being an asshole to someone who does, or even someone who has one, is a completely different fucking thing.
I figured I'd add in my two cents. I'm a very intelligent person who treats everyone the way I would like to be treated. I go out of my way to help people and I often place people before myself.
After reading this particular entry in your blog, (someone linked to it in a community) I felt the need to defend myself. Unlike most humans out there I am an all around good person and I happen to be childfree. I'm childfree because there's many things that I want to do with my life and I will not have the time or energy to devote to having a child. I want to devote my life to a career that I love and that's what it's going to be. Some of us (like myself) are childfree for that very reason. This does not by any means make me as you would say "fucked up" just because I've chosen to be childfree so I can devote my life towards my career. That's a rather childish assumption to make about a person you've never met and do not know personally.
I must admit there are many childfree people out there who go out of their way to make fun of and put down those who have decided to have children. I am not like this. I've simply chosen the childfree lifestyle for good reasons because I feel that my career and my education takes priority over having a child. As you know having a child requires a lot of time and effort and I myself am 100% career minded and would like to put all of my effort into maintaining my 4.0 grade average and graduating college and going off to make my 85,000 a year and being happy doing what I do.
I am not going to stoop so low to make a complete absurd assumption about someone I don't know. You've chosen to have children and that's fine. That is you and I am not going to stoop so low to call you "fucked up" just because of it. Everyone is entitled to their own decisions and it does not make me below anyone else just because I've chosen not to have children.
I'm really sorry, but if you think you are better than me because you have kids then that doesn't really say too much about the type of person you are.
I go out of my way for people, I treat people with respect and kindness, and I am a very kind human being and compared to most people out there these days who don't care about anyone but themselves, I think I have a pretty good personality.
I don't think you're below me just because you've decided to have kids. I don't think anyone is below me. I just feel that it's wrong of you to assume that all of us childfree people are terrible human beings because that is not so. There are a lot of childfree people out there who are just plain stupid but not all of us are. I'm a good person and I know this so I suppose I shouldn't really care what some person off the internet thinks of me just because I've chosen to be childfree. You go on thinking we're all horrible but I know the truth about myself and that is all that matters.
I just felt obligated to express my opinion. I'm sure this blog entry of yours is going to generate a lot of unintelligent replies but hopefully you can see where I am coming from and at least respect my decisions and opinions.
I'm sorry, but not everyone who decides not to have children is a bad person. That's a rather unfair assumption to make, don't you think?
And not everyone who doesn't have kids is an asshole. Nor is everyone who has kids. Asshole is independent of the number of kids you do (or don't) have.
Goescrunch, I really don't appreciate your presence here, or any of the other childfrees. We have enough problems trying to parent as it is, we don't have time to debate finer points of whatever childfree is. We just need to slap a label on something and move on.
It's not good to be proud of being closeminded. Slapping a label (childhaters and the such) on a group of peole is NOT a good thing. We often have this talk in the childfree communities as well as sometimes we start to slide and at times paint others with a broad brush. It's always good to keep oneself in check.
Please don't hate me because I'm different from you. I have no problem with you as a person simply because you are a parent.
No, see, that's how you choose to define the term. I'm childfree, and I don't hate all children nor do I wish to harm them. I don't have to tell people like you that "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!", I have to tell people like you that you've got a skewed perception on what childfree really is. Here, let me spell it out for you: "childfree = free of children". "Childhaters" and "childharmers" are different things entirely.
Oh, did I just burst your little bubble of "convenience"? Oops.
Perhaps you should consider a different name, because quite possibly spending the rest of your life saying "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!" seems to be more time-consuming than it really ought to be.
But I am like them. I'm childfree. It's what we are. Some people are childless, some are childfree.
You should read the book, "Without Child: Challenging the Stigma of Childlessness". It deals with those who are childless and those who are childfree, and all the many differences of why we choose the lives we lead. It's actually a good read.
You sow them and reap angry, hard to control soldiers. I suggest we abandon this thread. You know what they say: Do not feed the trolls [though this perpetuates the false belief that "trolls" are so named after the creature and not the fishing practice].
You sow them and reap angry, hard to control soldiers. I suggest we abandon this thread. You know what they say: Do not feed the trolls [though this perpetuates the false belief that "trolls" are so named after the creature and not the fishing practice].
Well, anyone who would like a reasonable intelligent discussion is welcome to continue talking to me, or you can email me to continue the discussion. I don't mind, and I do like to work through differences with people.
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
I'm also childfree - I don't hate myself and I like talking to my three year old cousin on the phone. I don't hate myself either, or hate my mother for birthing me.
What I do hate are bad/irresponsible parents who don't control or try to discipline their kids. Those kids grow up to be not so nice people.
I'm not going to go out and hunt and beat your children. I don't hate your children. I just want you to discipline them so they don't throw things in my hair at the movies or behave badly during class.
"You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them."
Please don't insult the rest of humanity by trying to pass your own skewed perspective off as "popular perception". I'm openly childfree, and most people understand that all that means is that I don't want to have children of my own.
Give people more credit - they're not all as ignorant and hateful as you are.
And yeah, I do care about that perception, since people like you are doing their damnedest to spread misinformation about what being childfree means. If you're going to keep trying to give us a bad name through misinformation and lies, I'm going to keep defending myself. Hell yeah, I will.
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
Did you not bother to read my reply? I must add that it was one of the few reasonable ones which showed no hatred or disrespect.
I do not care what the mainstream thinks of me. Half of those people are working mediocre jobs and going nowhere in life anyway.
The ignorance of humanity has left me disgusted. If you feel that all of us childfree people go out of our way to harm other people's children then I must admit that you are not very intelligent now are you? I feel very sorry for people who have that mindset. It's somewhat like being racist which is a very ignorant and stupid thing to be. By thinking every person that is childfree hates all children and goes out of their way to harm them, then you are no better than people that are racist.
I've nothing againist people who choose to have kids. Had you read my reply instead of making inaccurate assumptions, you would have seen that.
I'm a successful, intelligent, kind and caring human being who happens to be childfree. Like it or not.
You may continue holding false assumptions toward all of us as a whole but again I will state that this makes you ignorant and having this "holier than thou" attitude won't get you very far.
I don't think I'm better than any person that has a child just because I'm childfree. I'm not stupid enough or arrogant enough to place myself above anyone. I treat everyone with equal respect whether or not they have children and I do not appreciate your "holier than thou" attitude because you are not better than me.
Oh my, Ari. You do project a bit there. Perhaps if you scream a bit louder, we'll really believe you don't care!
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers. You may jump up and down in an aggravated manner whenever this is mentioned, but it will not change the fact that this is the way things are.
I don't bother to counter accusations against childfree people myself. I am childfree, I do hate children, and every now and then I want to drop kick one, but since that would involve legal complications for which I have no time, I restrain myself. I'm happy with who I am and the life I've chosen. If breeders want to breed, do so, keep your fuck trophies out of my way, and we can live in relative peace.
What I think Anonymous is trying to say is "Lalalalala! I can't hear you! lalalala!"
It doesn't matter what we say to this one, s/he'll just keep insisting that his/her skewed perception is somehow correct. S/he doen't want to open his/her mind and see the world out of his/her bubble. Lost cause.
Childfree people I can deal with. Childfree people who don't want children I can respect. Childfree people who feel pressured and ostracized by their families or the wider community, I can sympathize with and support.
Childfree people who flock to communities such as livejournal's "cf_hardcore" because they don't feel free enough to talk about how much they *HATE CHILDREN* in other childfree communities -- I have no respect for. Once you step over that line into hating and loathing children ("Oh, but not YOUR child, just children in general!" Wow, that almost sounded sincere!) then I might as well write you off, because you're not worth my time.
Words mean things, and the words you choose speak volumes about who you are.
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
The majority mainstream opinion is actually, "WTF is childfree??" and "Oh, you're just going through a phase. You'll change your mind." Unless you just meant of people online...
I don't daily try to counter the misperception of people online. I do try to participate in intelligent discourse, but I don't see why that is a bad thing. I like to resolve issues and reach understanding. I don't mind if you still want to insist that we are all evil baby killers. ::shrugs:: I often deal with that sort of misperception when people find out I'm pro-choice, just as I'm often referred to as a man-hater for being a feminist. I can't force anyone to change their views, and I know that well, but I do like to have discussions to reach an understanding of WHY they hold these views. I like to know why they don't want to give individuals a chance.
And if it helps, I don't think you are a "brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets". I don't know you well enough to make any such assumption.
Well Mr. Anonymous, you may go ahead and think what you like as it's very clear by your close-mindedness, lack of respect, and lack of intelligence that you're yet another worthless human being who has nothing to contribute to society.
You continue with your false assumptions and idiotic close-minded replies. You clearly have some sort of self-esteem issues that you should consider seeking help for, because if you did not, you wouldn't have to disrespect people you don't even know as well as belittle them.
Please grow up and get some help for those self-esteem issues. Good luck.
Poor Ari. It knows there's a target out there somewhere, if it could only find it.
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers. You can continue to call me names and stomp your feet, but neither are magical incantations that will cause this fact to change. You can whip out all the emotional propaganda you can muster, and it still won't change a thing. When you say "childfree" the first and lasting impression someone is has is that you hate and want to hurt children.
The absolute best part about this? I can perpetuate that far more effectively than you can combat it. That's the beauty of being a brainless breeder -- simply by reproducing, society gives the individual me a greater voice than the collective you can ever hope of achieving.
So go on with your name-calling, your categorizations, your hand-waving, and your feet stomping. All I have to do is hold my child in my arms and look hurt and everyone's on my side. I win, no matter what. :-)
What a sad, manipulative little person you are. I do so hope you get your rocks off by trying to make people hate you, though. Otherwise, it would all be for nothing.
Well, I think I've been sickened enough for one day.
I will not reply nor will I read anymore of your disrespectful close-minded blather. I have better things to do than associate with close-minded, unintelligent individuals such as yourself.
And quite honestly I fear for any kids you may have because they'll probably turn out close-minded and unintelligent like yourself. But then again, when they grow up they'll be the ones asking me if I would like fries with my meal or end up opening their legs to anyone just to make a decent buck so I need not worry.
Considering your intelligence level I'm going to go ahead and ASSUME (ooh, isin't this fun!) that you either had mediocre grades in college or probably did not go at all. I'm sure you work some crappy 9-5 low paying office job (assumptions are fun!) and are so severely depressed by your mediocre existance that you do not know how to properly channel your anger.
I myself will get back to my steady 4.0 grade average and continue on my way to making more money in 6 months than you'll make in 2 years. You continue working your dead-end job and raising your kids to be as disrespectful and mediocre as you are and be sure to keep up that "holier than thou" mentality. It really shows that you are indeed as useless and meaningless as you make yourself out to be. You make me laugh very hard.
I myself will get back to my steady 4.0 grade average and continue on my way to making more money in 6 months than you'll make in 2 years.
Of course you will, Ari. Of course you will. Because on the Internets, we can be anything we want! And I'm not only a moo, I'm a bazillionaire! lollercaust!
To paraphrase dootdoot and the statement that all childfree people hate and/or want to hurt children:
"Pro-lifers" bomb abortion clinics.
"Pro-choicers" support indiscriminate murder of babies.
People from the South are uneducated rednecks.
People from California are tree-hugging hippies.
Sounds ridiculous, no? At least most CF are willing to acknowledge that there are such things as "good" parents and "bad" parents. Too bad dootdoot can't do with same with CF.
What a sad, manipulative little person you are. I do so hope you get your rocks off by trying to make people hate you, though. Otherwise, it would all be for nothing.
No one can hate him/her because no one knows who he/she is. However, he/she might cause harm to how some parents are viewed, which isn't good. Just keep in mind that this person does NOT represent all parents.
"Just keep in mind that this person does NOT represent all parents."
Didn't think it for a second. Funny thing is, s/he's actually giving the childfree and the good parents one more thing to connect on - disgust with people like him/her. ;)
That now concludes my need to explain my position.
If that were the position of those who choose to identify as "childfree," there wouldn't be much to criticize about them, would there? Ditto if it were just "I'm never going to have kids" or "I can't stand to be around children."
It's the lengthy and elaborate defensive justifications for spewing hatred that gets ya in trouble. As seen above. That trick never works.
Well, I was using it as a doorstop but then it learned to crawl. A weapon is much more effective, and I am totally lollerskating about the fact that most of you know exactly how effective a weapon it is, under most social circumstances. That's what really pisses you off -- knowing that most of us do it without saying it.
Minor typos are not at all as bad as being immature and ignorant. Like dollface said, there are plenty of childfree people such as myself who fully recognize and appreciate the good parents out there. Why don't you recognize and appreciate the childfree people who are just that? We don't have or want children, we're not all hateful idiots.
Well, we really don't have to go as far as calling in the heavy artillery. Just by being the majority, we get our way most of the time. For those other situations, just drawing the little ones near and using the tiny, quavering voice automatically corrects the social situation. It's driving the childfree folks commenting here up the wall because they've observed it regularly. I think most parents are in denial about doing this because it's almost an involuntary reaction. It's simply more effective once you realize your doing it and hone your skills.
Your labelling of us is different from labelling you as breeders exactly how? It seems that logic is a foriegn concept here. Also how is posting in childfree communities different from the way you're going into childfree groups to seek things to be offended about? Think about it. And uh, I've never once heard about a childfree person going crazy and killing kids because they don't like them. Do you want to give me an example of this? Or at least stop talking out of your ass. It just seems like some of you are talking out of your asses here instead of using logic and going out of your way to try to offend people which I must say doesn't work too well among the childfrees. They'll just be laughing about this even harder in the communities they're in because they're used to hearing about ignorance among those who have children and think they're better than everyone who don't have children. You really are no better than those childfree people who seriously loathe children and consider themselves to be above "breeders".
Step off your high horse already people. You're no better than anyone else.
Gary Farber: Look around you. People don't accept "I don't have kids." They insist on analyzing us...accusing us of hating kids, or hating our parents, or being evil baby killers. We are forced to defend ourselves and our choices all the time. It's enough to make me want to tell people I'm sterile, but then the response would be "There's always IVF!"
I think you anonymous person who doesn't even use a screen name is pathetic. You use your child as a weapon because you're not intelligent enough to use your mouth.
Power? What power do you speak of? Our children have power, not us parents. That's why there's CPS and rights for minors against us parents. The school system is for children, not parents. We live our life as parents to educate our child into being proper humans, not to use them to get our way. We don't use them to manipulate and we certainly don't use idiotic words such as this pathetic internet speak.
I'd hate to know what language you are teaching your children and you're setting us women back. We've our own rights but you're making us only as worth as what function we have inbetween our legs.
The childfree people are just addressing what their beliefs are and I respect their opinions because atleast they're not halfwitted twits running around like you having children, thinking they'd give you some sort of higher power.
'lollerskating' 'lollercaust'? I bet you're not even a parent but just some kid messing around. If you really are a parent... wow. You're pathetic.
I just hope they aren't a parent. I hate the idea that anyone would use their child as a tool/weapon. A child is a PERSON. A human being. Damn, I hate kids and try to avoid them, but the last thing I want to hear is them being used as tools/weapons. No one should be harming them. Not their parents, not anyone. ;_; At this point I think this person is just baiting everyone. Now, THAT is pretty sad.
Dammit. Another anonymous poster beat me to it. I would have put it more eloquently, though, something along the lines of "People like you are the reason I have a superiority complex."
You try to play like "childfree" means, "I have decided not to have children." But that decision is passive; it doesn't involve parent-bashing and commenting on people's blogs and forming internet communities, and all of this "we" and "us" talk. "Childfree" means parent-basher, as you have shown over and over on this thread, and others. Maybe you think, "I'm not a parent basher!" You probably are, but if you really aren't, you should take care before alligning yourself with a group of parent-bashers. I have no sympathy for you. Y
Despite what many of you seem to think, no one here expects you to have children. I really don't care about your personal decision. Why you seem to think I care is ineffable. Keep your decision to yourself.
Most of you also seem to be confused about this post. Perhaps you haven't really read it. Ogged talks about a people who do reprehensible things. Saying that you aren't one of those people doesn't refute the observation. Beyond that, no one has personally accused you of anything. Is your goal to convince use that the "childfrees" are only partially reprehensible? That your hate has arguments behind it? OK, fine. A meager goal, but sure, I'll concede it. I won't concede that I hadn't already thought it before you brought it up again and again. I also won't concede that your arguments are any good. But I'll concede you people are not wholly reprehensible, since you seem to want me to do that.
No it doesn't. That's a meaning you're attempting to apply to it for reasons that I cannot wrap my head around, but simple logic says it isn't the actual meaning behind the term or lifestyle. "Childfree" means "free of children", and nothing more.
Power? What power do you speak of? Our children have power, not us parents. That's why there's CPS and rights for minors against us parents. The school system is for children, not parents. We live our life as parents to educate our child into being proper humans, not to use them to get our way. We don't use them to manipulate
Parent of Three, I'm glad when I hear from parents like you. It fills me with hope. Much love! I'm glad you'll be rearing your children into proper civilized beings, and I'm glad you give them the full love they need from you rather than using them as property.
On the bright side, kids who are used sometimes grow to resent their parents and try to avoid ever becoming like them. It's just a shame those kids will ever had to have suffered...
That's a meaning you're attempting to apply to it for reasons that I cannot wrap my head around
It's quite easy once you quit lying to yourself.
But, let me turn it around; if childfree simply meant what you want it to mean, how on earth did it get to be the situation that most people believe it to mean "parent basher,"?
Or, an analogy. Do you object to calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization? Even though, in all liklihood, many of its members have not committed a terrorist act? And, after all, the simple meaning of "Al Qaeda" does not translate to terrorist. By how you, all of you, are aruging, it's stupid and wrong to call a member of Al Qaeda of terrorist. But to say that is laughable. And that's why you're not convincing anybody.
It seems to me that this anonymous person has a personality disorder. They must be an exquisite parent! Anyway, Michael, the childfree communities are for people to rant about stupid parents. This does not mean ranting about ALL parents. There are different communities for different things. Communities like ranting about co workers that piss you off, customers that piss you off, etc. The childfree communities are there for people that are childfree to rant about examples of bad parenting and particularly stupid parents that do stupid things.
The childfree communities are not there to bash all parents and children whenever we see fit. Sure, some members do this, however there's many members who just rant when they see horrible examples of parenting and stupid things they've done which would make people question how great of a parent they really are in real life. The OP obviously went looking for trouble in the first place. She didn't have to go searching for childfree websites and communities and such but she chose to do this. And much like you, no one cares about YOUR decision to have kids either. It doesn't make you special or better than anyone because you've chosen to have them. I'm tired of some parents acting like the world owes them something or should treat them extra special just because they've decided to have kids. Just because a person doesn't want to have kids doesn't make them lower than those that choose to have them or any less of a person. That is such an unintelligent arrogant way to think.
And stop acting like you know what childfree means. Go look up the definition if you want. Unless you're childfree then you probably don't know the correct definition of it. And for the record, not all childfree people are children haters or parent bashers or whatever. That's just yet another silly mindless assumption that needs to be tossed out in the garbage already.
but the point, as my moomie friend informed me, is that these fucked up people flock to the mommy blogs, and leave nasty comments and send vile emails.
Um, yeah. That's all of us alright. We're all evil little people who have nothing better to do than send vile emails and attack parents and children. *rolls eyes* Oh, PLEASE!
The thing is, most people don't think that. And those who do probably got that idea in their heads because of people like you spreading misinformation, not an actual encounter with a childfree person. The actions of a few people do not reflect an entire group. Your type of perception is the reason so many white people instinctively hold their purses tighter when a black man walks past them.
And since you have no idea what goes on in my head, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me I'm "lying to myself" like an ignorant, arrogant ass.
Oh, and Parent of three, thank you for responding and being respectful of us childfree people and being open-minded and intelligent. Perhaps you can teach these other posters a thing or two about open-mindedness and respect. This shows that you're most likely setting good examples for your children and definitely shows that you're an all around great person. Thanks again!!
I agree with Jennifer. And the story (not the wording of whoever she quoted, I mean the actual real-life event) that the OP posted is the kind of thing we'd talk about in the kind of cf communities I'm in. We'd talk about how unfortunate it is for a child (or anyone) to endure something like that at the hands of their parents, and why do people have children who they're not going to love, but hurt?
Childfree means free of children. Simply put. There are going to be childfrees out there who are idiots and parents out there who are idiots. Don't make assumptions.
top acting like you know what childfree means. Go look up the definition if you want. Unless you're childfree then you probably don't know the correct definition of it.
Those two statements contradict each other, no? It seems even you aren't silly enough to believe the first one.
Your arugment is that internal ideology of the group and not the group's actions is to be used evaluating what the group stands for? Ridiculous. Parent-bashing is what the Childfree group is best known for, because they do an awful lot of it. It's irrelevant that parent-bashing is not the only thing they do. It is the defining action of the childfree movement. It's the most visible action. Whining to us isn't going to change that.
"NO! NO! Don't look at what we're doing over THERE! Just look over HERE! If you just look in this one little spot, we looks like good guys, honest!"
Why thank you, goescrunch and Kris. I have an identical sister who is childfree and to be quite honest can only tolerate my kids because they know better than to touch anything that doesn't belong to them. She has a backyard and a couple of dogs but they sit on the sofa until she asks them if they want to go in the back with the dogs and they look up at me to get my permission. Yes, it's strict but no one has ever complained about my children. I run my business from home so I get clients to come over. The worst thing I can do as a business woman and a mother can do is not keep order in the home and children. I suppose while my child remain to be successful people later in life, these people's children can work under them; that is, if my children allow them to be near them.
No, Michael, you have it all wrong. See, to not have children is a not a passive position. Our society engrains this desire to have children and while I had mine because I was financially successful enough to have mine, I think it's a very empowering decision to not fall into these social standards.
These childfree folks are not bashing parents like myself because I am a good parent. If you rear some naughty brats, well then, it applies to you. If you feel it doesn't, no need to be defensive, right?
You have to understand that a lot of these people are actually bothered that children are not reared the correct manner any longer. I very much dislike when my friends bring their kids over because they create such a mess and those little scoundrels don't even have the mind to think that it's impolite to leave such a mess. They interrupt their mother during non emergency events while she's talking and they eat with their mouth open. They also throw things at people and think it's okay to touch other people's belongings. While I was never a childfree adult, I think that is absolutely grotesque. I vowed that if I finally reach financial success, my children will never be that way. In fact, my children are highly intelligent, pleasant, happy and they love to socialize.
There are childfree people who despise children but it's only because it's a matter of preference. They would never even think of wasting their time in harming our children and to be quite frank, I'd trust my children with my sister, who is very childfree more than anyone else. Not because she is my sister and she loves my children but because she has common sense and the mind to know to respect my children as humans and not objects.
And Jennifer, I'm a bit curious, why *did* you join the childfree community? My gf is very open about never wanting to bear children, and we live in a very conservative state, but she's never gotten any flak and I guarantee she's never wanted to join any online community to talk about her decision or to search the web looking for places to proselytize her belief. I just can't fathom the impetus for such.
I joined the childfree community because I myself have been childfree for quite some time. When I came across a community for it, I joined because it was nice to be able to speak with other childfree people like myself from all over the place. That is the very reason why I've joined. I can't speak for everyone else but since I've been a member, I've not once bashed any parents or children unless they've done something worth posting about. A good example would be when a mother and daughter were shopping in my store and I saw the mother giving her child items to "hide" in her pockets. Or the time a child called her mommy a "bitch" and then the mommy proceeded to hit said child on the head causing a big scene. But my prime reasoning for joining up in childfree communities were so I could talk with other childfree people such as myself.
Thanks again, Parent of Three. Seriously. Your argument to Michael is right on. I'd like to add that perhaps the reason he so adamantly believes that the ENTIRE childfree community is full of angry child-haters is because those kinds of people like to start online journals and such and that's all he knows. But the fact that he hasn't come across some politically correct childfree blog doesn't excuse him from coming to the reasonable conclusion that not every childfree person is an angry child-hater. Can he really believe that I'm a terrible person just because I do not have the desire to have children?
Then change "family" to "political party", "fraternity", "book club", whatever. You're trying to generalize people because you, for some reason, simply don't want to accept individuals in a group as the individuals they are. It's an idiotic way of thinking, which actually suits you perfectly.
or to search the web looking for places to proselytize her belief.
We're not some crazy religious fundies. We don't want to force others to be like us. We just want for everyone to acknowledge - DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS. Being childfree is no better and no worse than not being childfree.
Okay, so a lot of intense emotions and jackassery from both sides of the fence today. Not all childfree community members are baby eaters, not all parents are breederific sows. However, both parties seem to have image problems that they don't want to confront, beyond shouting down anyone who dares to mention them.
Ah, Internet.
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03-18-05 2:52 PM
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you childfree pople are really idiodic. we decided to hav kids. you dident. thats yuor fuckup not ours. it makes up better then you because we chose to have them and make more kids for the next jeneration of people so that the world can continu living. your really stupid for not having kids and really selfish so just go away ok.
Trust me, I get slack from "moos" all the time. They think that I'm too strict. What's funny is that I've never had to raise my voice nor physically discipline even the most rebellious of my children. I've always believed that my children are capable enough to know right and wrong when consequences were explained. I always told them that if they did this, this would happen, and if they did this, this would happen and gave them a choice. If they picked the bad choice, then they knew what was coming and I explain that while it was a mistake, it's to learn from.
They also think my children are robotic because in public, they always wait for my response before an action but at home, they're carefree, get to run around wherever they want but they always clean up after themselves. How bad is that? I suppose it's as bad as the childfree who don't want children.
There's always a spectrum of people associated within a title. There's the left and right wings of politics, etc. People of lesser intelligence don't understand that. I pity those who use their child as weapons, nonetheless. Their children will grow to resent them and throw them into the old folk's cage. You know what? That's fine by me. I have money saved up as it is to have a nice retirement fund and fund all three children's college education post grad. Atleast my children are taken care of.
There's nothing wrong with joining a childfree community. It's the same reason why us parents join communities: to share woes, joys and to vent.
Not eating muffins is a fuckup! GO EAT MUFFINS! ALL OF YOU!
Actually, everyone should just go have some ice cream. Then we'll all feel better. Ice cream makes everyone happy. Except me. I'm lactose intolerant. I will have Rice Dream. Then we can all be spiffy, and maybe all the wankery can stop and there can actually be some sort of semi-intelligent discourse.
I'm sure we're all seriously worried about the next "jeneration." This world is overpopulated already. That doesn't mean that people who will become good parents shouldn't be having children now, but us childfree people aren't taking society a step back or anything.
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers.
How the HELL do you figure that?
Interesting...I'm a parent, and I've never EVER thought that about those who chose to be childfree.
You...outta the gene pool, and make sure to get spuetured before you reproduce again. I can't speak for other parents, but I sure as HELL don't want you on my side.
i am openly child-free and love children. i just realize that i shouldn't have them.
every stance has the negative stereotype - the people who scream the loudest. on every side you have to shift through the BS to find people who responsibly choose their course in life. :)
I'm in college right now, and, because I work and go to school, I see a lot of the results of bad parenting firsthand in the form of most of my peers. Many of these kids don't know apropriate behaviour between someone working in a service position and the customer, and even worse is they don't understand general etiquette for everyday interactions. I shouldn't have to deal with people while they apologize to the person they're chatting on their cell phone with while giving me a dirty look because they need to make a transaction. I shouldn't have to deal with complete strangers touching me in an inapropriate manner, and I especially shouldn't have to deal with it because I don't know them. I also shouldn't have to be treated like I'm mentally deficient because I have a job at my age (22).
I'm mostly frustrated by the bad behaviour and the fact that most of the kids that I see in this area that I am going to school in don't have manners, think I'm being an ass when I try to politely tell them to not do something that makes me uncomfortable, and didn't understand or think twice about any non-verbal cues I gave them before I had to tell them. Right now I'm not ready to have children, and being told that I'm being selfish by not having kids is a ridiculous presumption. My academic interests mean that I'll be in school for at least another two years after I graduate, and after that I'm planning on working in a museum or cultural center. By the time I get in there, I'll probably be teaching through that center and I'll be providing a resource out there for the kids that are already there. Sometimes the fulfillment that some seek in child-rearing can be achieved through other means, and right now I'm still on the fence as to whether I want to have children. If I do have children, however, I will do my best to have them understand apropriate rules of conduct in the society they grow up in. I'm tired of being hit, yelled at, treated rudely, and dealt with inapropriately by a bunch of children whose parents decided that money is a replacement for interaction with their children.
As far as childfree people, I believe that most of them (like most of any group) mean well and are linked by good intentions in their decision not to have children. Like most groups, there are the people who stand out because their behaviour is inapropriate and typical of the crazy/fundamentalist variety in any social group. Comparing fundamentalist childfree to the average childfree person is like saying that fundamentalist Christians are how every Christian is on the face of this planet. We all know that's not true. Not all parents are bad parents either, but we notice bad parenting more readily because of squalling children who can't be controlled.
Frankly, it's rather silly to claim that "there's no such thing as too much mommy blogging". Goofballs like you are the sort of eternally whining "parents" who complain that motherhood is so difficult these days. If that's as true as you insist, most of that blogging time would be better spent on parenting your children.
I am childfree because I really have fun just being myself and don't want to be responsible for another human being.
I love two of my nieces, but cannot tolerate the other one because she is completely undisciplined (separate households raising the girls).
Well behaved intelligent children are a joy.
Undisciplined, poorly parented youngsters make me want to introduce a bill requiring people to procure a license before breeding.
I think a lot of "parents" get upset about the "childfree community" because it is one sect that does not feel that their child is the special precious little miracle that they so desperately feel everyone should see.
Remember - babies are NOT "miracles" - they're a bodily function. Miracle would imply something out-of-the-ordinary, not something that any two people having a penis and a vagina can do by simply following nature.
I work with children on a daily basis. This is enough to make me never want to have my own. Not because I hate them, but I just don't want any of my own. I don't have a problem with well behaved children, who don't scream, hit, and knock things off shelves when they're in public. It's the latter that make me want to get m y tubes tied.
Maybe you feel that childfree people are evil because they glare at your children when they are misbehaving?
If parents are flipping out this much about those of us who are childfree, I can only imagine that their little brains will implode when they discover communities dedicated to telling dead baby jokes.
"Look around you. People don't accept 'I don't have kids.' They insist on analyzing us...accusing us of hating kids, or hating our parents, or being evil baby killers."
And yet, looking around me, I note that I'm 46 years old, able to reproduce, have no children, and not a single time in my entire life to date has a single person ever once asked me why I didn't have children, or made a statement I'm aware of on the topic of my lack of children. You can find tens of thousands of posts from me on Usenet without the subject ever coming up; you can find three years of blogging from me without a single comment from anyone on the topic.
I'd put it down to my magic anti-hatred powers, but people yammer complaints to me all the time about zillions of other things, so that doesn't seem to be the answer to why I am magically untouched by the evil oppression of the childless/"childfree."
Gary... if that's your name you appear to be male. I don' t know why, but people feel much more comfortable asking women personal questions on this topic. I have been asked (and then had my answer disbelieved) many times.
Not all childfree people are evil child hating monsters, just as not all parents are moronic slackjawed asswipes who never actually do any "parenting". Sadly, there's assholes in every possible grouping of humans. Please don't lump me in with the assholes simply because I choose to live my life without creating offspring.
I don't hate kids or their parents, for the most part. I hate UNDISCIPLINED, POORLY-BEHAVED kids whose parents think they are ENTITLED to ANYTHING simply because they have kids. I Hate parents who refuse to DISCIPLINE their unruly children, and feel it's ok to inflict said undisciplined, badly behaved little scream-monkeys on the general public. I especially hate the parents who expect me to kowtow to them because they have kids and I don't. I shouldn't have to work extra hours because they had kids. I shouldn't have to hear their kids scream during a movie, nor have them kick my seat repeatedly. I shouldn't have to act differently around them because THE KIDS ARE PRESENT. My entertainment shouldn't be censored to save THEIR CHILDREN-they need to be parents, and keep their kids away from whatever they don't approve of ratyher than curtail MY freedoms.
Have kids, enjoy them, raise them well. Discipline them when they need it, take them OUT of public plces when they behave badly, and most of all, respect MY right to not creat kids if I do not want to. have one for me, if you like. I'll salute you for it......as long as the kid behaves.
BTW, I don't hate my "breeder" parents. They raised me with proper respect for others (especially adults), and gave me discipline so I could grow up to be a respectful, well behaved, decent person. The term "breeder" when used in a derogatory fashion denotes a BAD PARENT, the kind who indulges a kid's every whim and creates a spoiled little monster. MOO stands for "Mother Obsessed with Offspring", not "moo cow". A MOO is a mother who spoils her kid, and feels that everyone else should as well, as HER child is the best in the whole world, and above all others no matter how badly behaved he/she is. Please feel free to do your homework before making an attack, even if you feel it is actually a "counter attack", and remember that not all of us are like the assholes who make everyone in a particular group of humans look bad.
apostropher:In my experience, what really cheeses off the "childfree" people
What's wrong, cupcake? The word sticks in your mouth because you'd rather say "the bitter and barren people"?
...is that those of us with children go home from work at 5:00 and don't come in on weekends because, you know, we have children.
"Because, you know, we've spawned Da Fyootur, so you should bow down and worship us, and give up all your work-related benefits for our sake."
My response is generally, "Your problem shouldn't be with parents, but with a boss that expects you to work uncompensated overtime. Quit being such a whiny assmartyr and just go home."
Try reading this journal. I mean, since you have so much time to post whiny crap online instead of doing TMIJITW-tm-.
The CF do *not* bash parents. They bash *bad* parents constantly. They do not bash the parents with children that are well behaved in public places. They constantly bash the parents who take their children places they are not equipped for. They do not bash parents who properly care for their children and keep them safe. They constantly bash parents who pull such crap as abandoning their children in sweltering cars for the entire day. Kee-rist, they'd put you in jail if you treated a dog like that, but do it to your own child and you get a stern look from a police officer. If you're unlucky.
Fall of 2001 I was on vacation in Banff. The rental car company had saddled me with an SUV. I had asked for the cheapest car they had. It had about 2 feet of ground clearance. It was HUGE! So I'm in the motel parking lot. I start the engine. I look around to see if it's clear to back out. And here comes moomie, duhdie, toddler sprog, and mop dog. And the dog goes diagonally under the truck, back right tire to front left. And I'm watching the breedersons, and they are just standing there with the big aquatic plant look on their faces. So, I just wait, with the truck still in Park, as I fear I know what's coming.
The toddler follows the dog, under the truck, diagonally, back right tire to front left. Under a truck with the engine running. And the vapid smiling aquatic plants just stand there watching.
So I get out of the truck, walk back where they are, and kneel down and look under the truck to be sure there are no more. And the bovine-like parents *still* had no clue there was anything untoward. They simply continued on to their room, mindlessly ignoring their child and dog. Why, parenting is the Most Important Job In The World. It says so right on the label.
*THIS* is the sort of parent that the CF bash. And with no fear or hesitation or reseraviation.
"I'd put it down to my magic anti-hatred powers, but people yammer complaints to me all the time about zillions of other things, so that doesn't seem to be the answer to why I am magically untouched by the evil oppression of the childless/"childfree."
I wonder whatever it could be."
Probably people take one look at you and know that nobody would ever have sex with you, so they know you'll never have children (unless socks or hand towels can get pregnant).
These are absolutely the least funny cock jokes I've ever seen on Unfogged.
This is absolutely the most mind-boggling thread I've ever seen on Unfogged, period. I am literally blown away by the fact that there are this many people who feel this way. Not just the passive "I don't want to have kids", but actively "childfrei". Unbelievable.
Ha, if that is your real name.....I surely hope you don't have children, seeing as how you haven't reached full maturity. And help us all if you do, and raise your kids to be as hateful and idiotic as you are.
"Crotch droppings" does not mean all children. The term applies to whiney, spoiled, bratty children who throw temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store/movie theater/public place/ad nauseum and gets no response from the parent."
I'll remeber that the next time I hear a child-free idiot OBVIOUSLY apply it across the board
All Childfree people hate children and parents. It's in the very words they speak. Just go over to CF hardcore and read the first page or two, it's obvious. My question is, why are so many CF'ers gigantic fatasses? Goescrunch for example, HUGE GOTH CHICK, I MEAN HUGE! All CF'ers can fuck off. A CF'er once had something to say to me about my (10 month old) daughter crying in Target. I dragged him out into the parking lot and knocked out three of his teeth! Good times! He made a big scene about it and called the cops. You should have seen the look on his face when the cop showed up and called me by my first name, as in, "Hey *****, what's up?" The crestfallen look on his face was priceless. I got 4 hours community service and my record expunged. He's still minus three teeth. That's the way it should be. I will kick the ass of any CF'er who dares open their fat mouth to me, my wife, or my children.
I happened to link to this while doing a Google search on "childfree."
I do not want to sound trollish, but I do feel I need to defend myself. I am childfree. I made the choice, several years ago. My husband and I both feel that having children is inappropriate. I had a very tough childhood and young-adulthood, living in some bad and very codependent relationships. IOW, I lived for others, not for me. Now it's my time to live for me, and make myself happy, after 29 years of not doing that. My husband also has health issues that could considerably shorten his life, and he does not want to die, leaving me with a child to raise on my own.
I believe that it is a lifestyle choice, and FOR ME, it works. I am content, and have peace of mind. Like a clock I saw once online says, "My biological clock is NOT ticking."
For others, having kids is the right lifestyle for them. And that's fine. I don't hate kids. I cannot stand bratty kids, bratty behavior, and bratty, pushy parents. But I do adore my nieces and nephews, and have seen firsthand what good parents, my sisters-in-law are. They are raising kind, considerate, happy kids whom I love to babysit and spoil rotten, hehehe.
What I don't appreciate is being preached to, and told I'll change my mind, and that it's different when they're my own kids. Sorry, but I have the right to make a lifestyle choice. I just don't appreciate being prejudiced against. And I actually do stand up at work, when told I don't have kids so overtime shouldn't be a problem. I do have a family: my husband and my cat are family. Just because I choose not to bear children, does not mean that I do not have a life.
Again, I'm not here to be a troll. But, I do mind when I'm prejudiced against, called "terrible" and "selfish" when you don't even know me, know my situation, and don't bother to.
Can't we just learn to respect each other and learn to be a bit more openminded? That would rock!
My boyfriend and I have been dating for 2 years now. I love kids but;dislike spoiled,bratty kids with no manners. My boyfriend has a 15 year old son and has never been made to thank someone whenever they give him a gift-such as me. I was appauled. His son went into his room and slammed the door when I went to my boyfriends house for the first time and refused to talk to me. I tried starting a conversation with his son but;he gave me a look like"I wish you were dead". I've always been nothing but nice to this kid. There are no set rules with my boyfriends son. He does'nt crack a book or get good grades and is always out having a high old time with his friends but;yet my boyfriend rewards him with gifts all the time-expensive gifts like a bass guitar and amplifier,computer and whatever he wants he gets! I told my boyfriend that I will not live with him as long as his son is "in the picture". His son controls him and tells him to get off the phone. I've broken off with him 3 times but he keeps coming back to me. But;I can't see where anything has changed with his disrespectful;unruly son. What do I do? My boyfriend is nice but;he has the "son from hell"!!! Need advice....... Nancy
There was a woman on alt.religion.kibology who was such a one—red. Pretty nasty on that issue but ok otherwise.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:17 PM
Man, people seriously need to stop hatin'. I just don't understand where they get the energy.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:31 PM
I know what you mean, Joe. Me, I'm all about love. Love and grammar.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:33 PM
They go together like a nail and hammer.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:35 PM
I wonder if maybe the "Childfree" people are associated with VHEMT in any way?
Posted by Walter Sobchak | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:48 PM
In my experience, what really cheeses off the "childfree" people is that those of us with children go home from work at 5:00 and don't come in on weekends because, you know, we have children. My response is generally, "Your problem shouldn't be with parents, but with a boss that expects you to work uncompensated overtime. Quit being such a whiny assmartyr and just go home."
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:54 PM
Oops. That was me.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:55 PM
Sigh. I meant whiny-ass martyr, but I think I prefer whiny assmartyr anyhow.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:56 PM
As if, with "assmartyr," there could have been any doubt. Ye shall know the lion by his paw...
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 2:57 PM
Oh, now I get it. You are just now seeing this stuff for the first time! Whew. It has been around forever.
There be a boatload of this baggage that some childfree people drag around. It is amazing to me that a baby can either be:
A new hope (as my Grandma used to say)
or
Another maggot feasting on the rotting corpse of our world.
Since we were all once babies, even the currently childfree, it makes me wonder what they think of themselves?
Usually they give themselves special dispensation, and when they reproduce they give their own children special dispensation, too.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 3:00 PM
What Joe said. 'specially the energy.
Ogged. That is one seriously sick quote, seriously sick.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 3:01 PM
Apostropher,
Wow, me too. Actually I go a little farther and say "Instead of griping that Joe Daddy gets off for his sprog's Dr appointment why don't you take time off and go see a movie? It sure beats bringing a snot-nosed crying kid to the Doctor."
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 3:04 PM
Or, if you're brave, check out alt.support.childfree on usenet. This is a world where mothers are "moomies," as in "moo-cows," and kids are "crotch droppings."
You've never read asc? I did for several months. (Note: not because I wished to adopt the title, but because I knew someone who called themselves that.) There are some people who do not have children and would like to be left alone (not harassed about it), and there is another group that consists of people who do not have children because they ravingly detest them possibly to the point of killing them all if they could.
Charming lot.
If I read that right on thread entry, gluehorse was trolling from position two, because you said 'mommy' and mommies are BAAAADDDDD.
ash
['Bit like $cienos, really, except not as well organized.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 3:13 PM
Since we were all once babies, even the currently childfree, it makes me wonder what they think of themselves?
Ditto. I was shocked when I first started reading the childfree stuff (out of curiosity) a few years ago. I mean, I totally get not having kids and being (a) irritated when people are nosy about this (whether you want kids or not) and (b) irritated from time to time about things like kids who are misbehaving in places where people might not want kids (movies, nice restaurant, etc.) but I don't get the hatred that these people spread. Neither the hatred nor the need to spread it.
They must hate their child selves. They must hate their breeder parents, too. For that matter, they should hate everyone for having been a child once, and some people double for having had kids even if those kids are grown and no longer the object of their ire.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 3:54 PM
Yes. Exactly.
And, as you've seen, if you post on a mommy topic, people come in and make trouble.
That's one reason I get kinda bitchy from time to time.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 4:15 PM
That's one reason I get kinda bitchy from time to time.
So what explains the bitchiness the rest of the time?
*covers privates and runs away in a zig-zag pattern*
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 5:13 PM
Actually, the better question would be, how is it that I ever manage to be civil?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 5:15 PM
Damn you Ogged. I have a vague appreciation for the scale of vileness on the internets and am aware of some specific instances, but I didn't know about this. Now I do. If only Lacuna Inc. really existed.
Posted by mikez | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 5:38 PM
Actually, the better question would be, how is it that I ever manage to be civil?
*calling from high up in the oak tree*
Do you ever manage?
Seriously though, and not that you need me to tell you this, you're remarkably civil, and patient, near most all the time. I'm just a sucker for an easy (and probably cheap) shot.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 5:41 PM
So am I, and as soon as you come down from that tree, I'm gonna hit you.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 6:22 PM
Apostropher -- the problem, thanks to the damned Internets and the little angel's early bed time is that here I am procratsinatin' on Unfogged just exactly as if I was in the office.
I had not idea that anything like this existed. Its horrifiying. The closest I'd seen were colleagues who were very into the politics of queerdom who referred to people like me genererally as "the breeders." There was a cow kind of a reference there. But the rhetoric came from feeling pushed to the outside by the dominant cultural paradigm etc. These same colleagues give nice shower gifts too.
But to decide to be an anti mom troll? There is some creepy creepy shit out on the Internets. ugh. I want to shower.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 6:41 PM
benton, I actually have a tshirt that says BREEDER on it (in reference to this book, which I recommend by the way). I used to wear it around my gay neighborhood. It was always good for a laugh.
Which is just to say yes, there is a huge difference between the queers calling us straights "breeder" and the childphobic assholes doing so.
Although I suppose occasionally a gay person might also be a childphobic asshole. In which case it's not okay.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 6:49 PM
BPHD Hip Mama's survival guide was a kind of an antidote to the "Girlfriend's guide to..." which was a sort of antidote to "What to expect...." so I'm familiar with at least one of the authors. A forward by Dan Savage? Far out.
This part, in the Amazon review, though, is priceless: "Voices of mothers--the real in-the-trenches voices of mothers--always threaten the status quo."
I'm reminded of the old Monty Python line: I do all my best acting in a trench. And now I have to worry if I buy it that it could turn out my wife is just some wannabe poser mother as opposed to a real in the trenches one.
Your recommendation does them a lot more good than they do themselves.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:05 PM
If you buy it, do it through my Amazon link. I almost created a dedicated link in the comments, but decided that as this isn't my blog that would be kind of obnoxious.
Less obnoxious, of course, than what I just wrote, but hey.
Ariel Gore is awesome. But the best story in there is the one by Allison Crews called "When I was Garbage," about her pregnancy at, I think, 15 or 16. It's fucking awesome.
Here it is, online. Read that and tell me if the last sentence doesn't bring you near tears.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:19 PM
Oh, by the way, if memory serves, Allison ended up going to a top-notch college, though I won't say which, as these are the internets.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:21 PM
I am a sap. And once upon a time I taught kids of this age who were in a variety of dire straits. I don't recall anyone with a voice like this though. She had me near tears at
"Fantasies of virgin-white wedding dresses and sponge painted nurseries unfolded on those blank pages...",
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:29 PM
But what will haunt me is that my little guy loves Bob Marley too. Many is the day I rocked him to sleep on my shoulder listening to it.
And I know nothing about the adoption process. But that was seriously disturbing stuff. Do you know to what extent are the contacts with the adoptive mother and the biological mother structured for the sake of one or the other? Because the thought that you giving up your unborn child is going to so specifically and explicitly serve to help someone else get over losing their unborn is just not the plane on which I would have thought those discussions should rest.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:39 PM
Heh, pseudonymous kid went to sleep listening to the Blackeyed Peas. It conked him out like a light almost every time. Too weird.
I think that open adoption is a great idea, but I believe--and Dan Savage's Kid talks about this--that the agreements are basically unenforcable and usually it's the adoptive parents who have most of the power once the adoption takes place. I have a close friend, actually, who gave a child up for open adoption. The family has since moved out of the country and she hasn't heard from them in ages.
Some people suck.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 7:43 PM
Now that my little one is a talker and a walker, he still loves the Pogues. Which is bad because there are only so many Pogue songs from which you want him randomly shouting out bits of lyrics. (No more Fairytale of New York).
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 8:04 PM
LOL, yes, we've had to cut back on some of the hiphop for the time being.
Although it was hilarious when we had some old LL Cool J on and PK asked, "why does mama say knock you out?"
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 8:48 PM
"Or, if you're brave, check out alt.support.childfree on usenet."
Here's a comment of mine about alt.support.childfree from 1999, actually, although I believe I first was appalled by the group circa 1997.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 9:21 PM
Gary, that's awesome.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 9:27 PM
Gary - It is awesome.
But its not as awesome as "why does mama say knock you out." I remember seeing an interview with Chuck D where he talked about how that album taught him he could be "hard" without cursing. Of course, it was soon after that he appeared on Newsradio, albeit with Phil Hartman.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-16-05 9:40 PM
Now that my little one is a talker and a walker, he still loves the Pogues. Which is bad because there are only so many Pogue songs from which you want him randomly shouting out bits of lyrics.
My kids love Lorelei, off Peace and Love, and the lyrics are very harmless. Sadly, they also love In my blue heaven, which is less so.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 7:39 AM
Wow, was this something good to see first thing in the morning!
I suppose one nice thing about bashing breeders is that there are just so many of us.
John Scalzi's wonderful screed against the childfree was what first brought me to his blog.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 7:58 AM
Should we compare Kibo numbers now?
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 3:11 PM
1.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 3:14 PM
I think he and I exchanged a an e-mail or three or so, which means mine is also 1, but it's possible my memory is confusing a newsgroup exchange, in which case I'm either a 298 or a 2. After all, we're talking about last century.
I'm only a young 'un online, though; I didn't get to Usenet until after the Great Renaming; on the other hand, this was entirely due to poverty, not lack of knowledge; I was being sent monthly snailmail print-out compilations of sf-lovers on ARPA-Net by friends (well, Ben Yalow, actually) starting around 1979.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 4:10 PM
Jesus. I remember the very early days of usenet. And thinking about whether we could use Rec-Sport -Pro-Wrestling as a source, when constructing "Professional Wrestling as a Predictive Indicator of Regime CHange and Conflict...." which was a paper my colleagues and I thought about writing in the early 1990s. The scary thing was that in some ways, RSPW et al had goofy/geeky/sweet characteristics that I like about Unfogged...
Which means this can't last.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-17-05 9:56 PM
Maybe if you spent more time taking care of your brat instead of posting on the internet, we wouldn't have to hate you.
Posted by TheKWOBT | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:02 AM
I'm childfree and I have better things to do than go out of my way to say nasty things to people that have children. Not all of us childfree folk are terrible. And if you consider the childfree people to be terrible just because we prefer to live a life without having any children, then you're no better than those childfree folk that go out of their way to insult those with children.
Have a great day.
Posted by Nicole | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:11 AM
A lot of the issues with mothers and other parents is that they expect that we will find their little darlings very precious. I am certainly not childfree, as I love children and do plan on having some of my own, but some kids are just brats. And the bratty kids are the ones with the bratty parents who think it's "oh sew cuh-yoot" that little Timmy just threw up. These are the parents who will allow their children to throw tantrums in the store, the ones who claim to not be able to control their children, the ones who fight for their children when their child has lost.
Case in point of that last example, my mother's friend's son threw a chair at a kid and got expelled. Now, this kid has been diagnosed with ODD and is very borderline on being diagnosed with CD. So this is a very believeable story, especially when he has a history of violence in school and his entire class saw him do it. However, the mother's friend sure ran up to school right quick and started defending him. No way little Paul could have done that, he's such a sweet child. (This is the child that once looked my father straight in the eye at age 6 and told him to go fuck himself).
Those are "moomies." Those are people who shouldn't be allowed to breed. Have your babies, by all means, but raise your children properly and teach them to behave in public.
Posted by Jessica | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:14 AM
To all of you who say "we were all once babies, so I wonder what those who hate babies think of themselves" -- we grew out of it. Did you?
Posted by kethryveris | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:14 AM
Oh, man, who turned on the faucet?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:15 AM
What no one seems to be realizing here is that there are two kinds of parents: those who actually raise their children, and those who expect the rest of the world to accommodate them. The former earn the title of "parents". The latter are breeders. Not every childfree person hates kids and trolls on journals, just like not every parent is terrible. But there are puh-lenty of parents who let their kids slap their grimy hands on my stuff, run into me with the shopping cart, take things out of my hands, and then smile and say, "Isn't he the cuh-yootest little thing?" No, he isn't, and if you don't stop him from ruining my $200 shoes you'll be buying me another pair.
Parenting, like any other lifestyle choice, is not for everyone. Personally, I hate bratty kids, so my intent is to never have one. And since I know myself well enough to know that I couldn't be a good, consistent, caring parent, the kind who would raise a non-bratty kid, I consider my decision to not reproduce a good one. I'm sick to death of people telling me I'll change my mind, or that I'm selfish. If I told you that I hated cats, would you insist that my life could never possibly be complete without one? Of course not, and kids are no different. And I daresay I've put considerably more thought into my decision than most people put into their decision to reproduce.
Bottom line: not all childfree people hate kids. Some of us just know our limits.
Posted by dollface | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:32 AM
Actually, childfree doesn't mean we hate kids. In fact, most are horrified when we see the articles of parents beating and drowning/torturing kids and we're wondering why they even had kids if they treat them like animals. A lot of us are simply disillusioned by motherhood or fatherhood because those of you who do have kids tend to not discipline them or teach them to mind their manners. I've never hated children myself but I've always had the tendency to friend adults ever since I was a child. No, I never had any self hate as a child because I wasn't talked to as though I were a child in three worded sentences and I minded adults and respected people. When I was younger, children still respected adults but some how, all that got destroyed and children disrespect adults. To be quite frank, I wouldn't want to have my children surrounded by this and since it doesn't seem as though this is going to stop, I'd prefer to not have children. Should I ever have children, which is very unlikely, I'd adopt. I don't need to spawn in order to feel fulfilled in life. I am very fulfilled with my life as myself and as a married women. I love myself and I love my husband. We don't need children. We're very content with eachother's company and the statistics of marriage dissatisfaction from scholastic journals of people having children don't make it seem better. I never married to have children, I married for companionship.
While there are those who do despise children, you can hardly blame them. You people who have kids (maybe not YOU specifically but most) don't discipline your children. You don't teach them to have manners. Children know since infancy when you say no they know they shouldn't do it. That's all an infant needs. No physical contact AT ALL, just a simple "no." You underestimate your children's intelligence and think they couldn't possible comprehend when they're vocabulary is expanding at an exponential level once their minds start to absorb words. You also think that your child is so special and everyone will make an exception. That does not let your child surpass the egotistical age that three to five year olds go through. Of course embracing one self is always what people should do but you all don't know what you're doing.
And no, you don't need to give birth to know these things. It's called education and common sense. Giving birth doesn't give you any more knowledge or else I wouldn't have to see the news where a father threw his daughter off a bridge in Europe or where a mother drowned her kids in the tub.
Posted by Childfreeperson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:42 AM
Speaking up for the childfree.
I myself am childfree. I have no desire to have children or be around them. This doesn't mean I hate children. This doesn't mean I would go out of my way to harm/kidnap/otherwise hurt anyone's children. I would avoid them at all costs.
It's just like this. Some people don't like dogs. Some don't like cats. Some don't like birds. And some just don't like children. It doesn't mean that any childfree/dog-disliking/cat-disliking person would necessarily harm or otherwise threaten a child, dog, or cat... it just means that they don't want to be around them and don't appreciate the company of what they dislike.
However, there are exceptions to every rule. I like a few children. My father likes a few cats. My mother likes a few dogs. We do not like them all. That's just how it is.
There are some childfree that spread hatemongering. There are some who just want to be left alone.
Most are simply annoyed by the fact that good parenting doesn't seem to happen anymore. Parents are too busy being their child's friend and worrying that they will somehow stunt their child's mental growth by enforcing rules and applying discipline when needed.
"Crotch droppings" does not mean all children. The term applies to whiney, spoiled, bratty children who throw temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store/movie theater/public place/ad nauseum and gets no response from the parent.
"Moomies/Moos" applies only to mothers who are not parenting. As a cow normally ignores the offspring except when suckling, such does a mother who ignores her children rather than teaching them how to properly behave.
"Duhdies" applies to fathers who don't parent, and usually are caught standing still with a dazed expression on his face while his children run amok and basically make nuisances of themselves.
Please don't confuse the childfree with child-haters. Most childfree weblogs are simply places where childfree go to rant about the children and parents that have somehow annoyed them, and most things said are tongue-in-cheek.
Thank you.
Posted by Lina | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:46 AM
I'm childfree. I hate most kids. I definitely hate parents who don't parent their kids.
I do not hate parents who teach their children manners, and right from wrong.
There is a difference.
Oh, and one last thing. If you're such a wonderful mother, what in the hell are you doing online reading all this "horrible" childfree literature? Shouldn't you be parenting your kids, or something?
Posted by Anji | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:53 AM
"Of course, there are lots of fucked up people on the internets, but the point, as my moomie friend informed me, is that these fucked up people flock to the mommy blogs, and leave nasty comments and send vile emails."
As someone who's been involved in a childfree community for a while, I'd like to inform you that (gasp!) it does indeed go both ways. Idiot breeders who can't wrap their head around someone choosing a different lifestyle - and by gum just won't stand for it! - make a habit of trolling childfree bloggers and communities all the time.
Now, if you really want to huddle together and cry about how "eeevil" the childfree are, that's your prerogative. Any time you want to step out of your little bubbles, the real world is waiting.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:55 AM
If it helps, a lot of us childfree people really hate "theKWOBT" because she's a right nasty bitch.
Posted by A. | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:00 PM
Are you people fucking kidding me? You don't like kids - fine; I don't like some of them either, for roughly the reasons you describe. But I don't sit around inventing words for parents and children and then (and this is what kills me) creating an ethical framework that justifies the use of the terms. I don't go searching the web for people who disagree with me to try and convert them. Jeebus. That's exactly where irritating or even funny moves into crazy. Wouldn't your time be better spent working on the Cloning Collective or whatever the Great Master Plan is?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:00 PM
Ugh. I think I'm going to be sick.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:02 PM
Alright, it's considered wrong to say, "All white people are like THIS" and "All black people are like THAT", so why can't we stop to think for a minute that maybe, just MAYBE, not all Childfree people think, act, and believe exactly the same way. Now, taking this moment to consider this lil idea of individuality, perhaps Childfree people are only tied together by one common thought. ie: They wish to remain Childfree. In fact, wait, yes... That is how it is! On the Childfree communities that I frequent there are varying views of parents and children, and there is a varied set of reasons for wishing to remain Childfree. I admit, I hate children. I won't hide that fact, or try to pander to anyone with platitudes of LOVING them, REALLY, or anything like that. I do know there are Childfree people who do love kids, and I accept this. It is there right. I hate that people would judge all Childfree people as hating kids just because I do. Of course, I also would never wish any ill upon children just because they are children. After all, I don't really like dogs, but I'd be damned if I want to see one hurt. No living creature should have to suffer. Also, "moomies" is quite far removed from "moo-cow". Anyone who thinks that is what it is for is VERY wrong. MOO = Mother Obsessed with Offspring. Hell, there are parents who hate their kids. If anything is really WRONG, it's that. So long as we aren't harming children, who cares. If a truly childfree person harasses the blogs of mothers, they need to ignore them. Even if it is just a troll pretending to be childfree they should still ignore them. Ban the twit, call it a day, and continue enjoying life. Also, whatever the parents do, they should try not to be mindless breeders. Good parents are awesome, and highly in demand! THE CHILDFREE LOVE GOOD PARENTS!!!
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:05 PM
Shorter childfree comments: When we say nigger, we aren't talking about all black people, just the irresponsible ones.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:09 PM
Are you people fucking kidding me? You don't like kids - fine; I don't like some of them either, for roughly the reasons you describe. But I don't sit around inventing words for parents and children and then (and this is what kills me) creating an ethical framework that justifies the use of the terms.
People rant and talk. It's what they do. People hang out with likeminded people, and they rant and talk about things. It's one of the reasons communities exist. So people with something in common can get together and relate to one another.
I don't go searching the web for people who disagree with me to try and convert them.
Oh good. Neither do we. We hate when people do that. We've had morons on several of the CF communities I'm a member of before come in and spam the place with how we'll regret our choices, and that we're sinners, etc... Gets so old so fast.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:11 PM
Shorter childfree comments: When we say nigger, we aren't talking about all black people, just the irresponsible ones.
I'm of the belief that "niggers" come in all colors. YMMV
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:12 PM
(Tim, Joe, apostropher: Shhhhhhhhhhhh.)
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:14 PM
I love you, Crunchie!
Posted by Anji | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:15 PM
Remember the old "Skol" Drinking song of the scandinavians?
"Troll Troll
Troll Troll
Troll Troll, Troll, Troll..."
Thing is, goescruch, that this IS not a CF community and this is getting old so fast it already stinks.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:16 PM
She's not a troll. I have seen her on several communities and she is really anything but. I think you just don't like that she is eloquent and to-the-point, and can do something other than whine, "Troooooooll!"
Posted by Anji | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:18 PM
Austro, considering that goescrunch was attempting to clarify the workings of the childfree community in a rather polite manner and you're just being flat-out insulting, perhaps you should reconsider who you're applying the "troll" tag to.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:19 PM
Goescrunch, I really don't appreciate your presence here, or any of the other childfrees. We have enough problems trying to parent as it is, we don't have time to debate finer points of whatever childfree is. We just need to slap a label on something and move on.
Posted by dootdoot | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:20 PM
"We just need to slap a label on something and move on."
So... you're saying you are actively trying to lump us all into one insulting stereotype? Why would anyone choose to live in ignorance?
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:22 PM
Because their lives just wouldn't be complete if they couldn't have a label to whine about, I suppose, rather than getting the hell offline and PARENTING their children.
Posted by Anji | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:26 PM
Anji.
mmhmm. I see.
I think you might need to look Irony up.
But to spell it out. I was not accusing HER of trolling simpyl pointing out the take one might have on what went previously and why others might not share her point of view on here.
I agree the weapon was blunt.
So. I think Im done here. I need some air.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:27 PM
You call it ignorance, I call it convenience. This falls into one of those areas where the outspoken childfree people have defined the term, whether you like it or not. Childfree = child haters and harmers. Perhaps you should consider a different name, because quite possibly spending the rest of your life saying "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!" seems to be more time-consuming than it really ought to be.
Posted by dootdoot | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:28 PM
"ooooooh no. someone's kid is throwing a tantrum. i was raised well and i never cried out loud because i never cried in public because i was raised by angels. "
jesus fucking christ. get over it. you don't like kids? fine. you don't like how some people raise (or don't) their kids? fine. chances are you pulled the same shit at least once when you were a kid, and probably more. oh but you grew out of it? congratulations. so does 99% of the rest of the population. i personally never did. i still take a shit whenever, wherever I want; cry when I can't buy myself a pack of candy and sometimes will sit down and refuse to leave the store until I can buy that pack of candy.
do you get pissed off at people who do jobs different then yours because they suck at it? do you go around telling them that they suck and that they shouldn't have ever started working even though you haven't experienced that line of work?
not liking kids is one thing. being an asshole to someone who does, or even someone who has one, is a completely different fucking thing.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:29 PM
I figured I'd add in my two cents. I'm a very intelligent person who treats everyone the way I would like to be treated. I go out of my way to help people and I often place people before myself.
After reading this particular entry in your blog, (someone linked to it in a community) I felt the need to defend myself. Unlike most humans out there I am an all around good person and I happen to be childfree. I'm childfree because there's many things that I want to do with my life and I will not have the time or energy to devote to having a child. I want to devote my life to a career that I love and that's what it's going to be. Some of us (like myself) are childfree for that very reason. This does not by any means make me as you would say "fucked up" just because I've chosen to be childfree so I can devote my life towards my career. That's a rather childish assumption to make about a person you've never met and do not know personally.
I must admit there are many childfree people out there who go out of their way to make fun of and put down those who have decided to have children. I am not like this. I've simply chosen the childfree lifestyle for good reasons because I feel that my career and my education takes priority over having a child. As you know having a child requires a lot of time and effort and I myself am 100% career minded and would like to put all of my effort into maintaining my 4.0 grade average and graduating college and going off to make my 85,000 a year and being happy doing what I do.
I am not going to stoop so low to make a complete absurd assumption about someone I don't know. You've chosen to have children and that's fine. That is you and I am not going to stoop so low to call you "fucked up" just because of it. Everyone is entitled to their own decisions and it does not make me below anyone else just because I've chosen not to have children.
I'm really sorry, but if you think you are better than me because you have kids then that doesn't really say too much about the type of person you are.
I go out of my way for people, I treat people with respect and kindness, and I am a very kind human being and compared to most people out there these days who don't care about anyone but themselves, I think I have a pretty good personality.
I don't think you're below me just because you've decided to have kids. I don't think anyone is below me. I just feel that it's wrong of you to assume that all of us childfree people are terrible human beings because that is not so. There are a lot of childfree people out there who are just plain stupid but not all of us are. I'm a good person and I know this so I suppose I shouldn't really care what some person off the internet thinks of me just because I've chosen to be childfree. You go on thinking we're all horrible but I know the truth about myself and that is all that matters.
I just felt obligated to express my opinion. I'm sure this blog entry of yours is going to generate a lot of unintelligent replies but hopefully you can see where I am coming from and at least respect my decisions and opinions.
I'm sorry, but not everyone who decides not to have children is a bad person. That's a rather unfair assumption to make, don't you think?
Take care.
Posted by Ari | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:30 PM
Not having kids isn't a bad thing. I'm cool with that. It's being an asshole that's bad.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:31 PM
And not everyone who doesn't have kids is an asshole. Nor is everyone who has kids. Asshole is independent of the number of kids you do (or don't) have.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:32 PM
Goescrunch, I really don't appreciate your presence here, or any of the other childfrees. We have enough problems trying to parent as it is, we don't have time to debate finer points of whatever childfree is. We just need to slap a label on something and move on.
It's not good to be proud of being closeminded. Slapping a label (childhaters and the such) on a group of peole is NOT a good thing. We often have this talk in the childfree communities as well as sometimes we start to slide and at times paint others with a broad brush. It's always good to keep oneself in check.
Please don't hate me because I'm different from you. I have no problem with you as a person simply because you are a parent.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:32 PM
Tweedeldopey. Forget it. Dragon teeth. Know what I mean?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:32 PM
No, see, that's how you choose to define the term. I'm childfree, and I don't hate all children nor do I wish to harm them. I don't have to tell people like you that "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!", I have to tell people like you that you've got a skewed perception on what childfree really is. Here, let me spell it out for you: "childfree = free of children". "Childhaters" and "childharmers" are different things entirely.
Oh, did I just burst your little bubble of "convenience"? Oops.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:33 PM
No. what are dragon teeth? are they candy? i like candy.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:33 PM
Perhaps you should consider a different name, because quite possibly spending the rest of your life saying "I'm childfree BUT I'M NOT LIKE THEM!" seems to be more time-consuming than it really ought to be.
But I am like them. I'm childfree. It's what we are. Some people are childless, some are childfree.
You should read the book, "Without Child: Challenging the Stigma of Childlessness". It deals with those who are childless and those who are childfree, and all the many differences of why we choose the lives we lead. It's actually a good read.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:37 PM
You sow them and reap angry, hard to control soldiers. I suggest we abandon this thread. You know what they say: Do not feed the trolls [though this perpetuates the false belief that "trolls" are so named after the creature and not the fishing practice].
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:37 PM
You sow them and reap angry, hard to control soldiers. I suggest we abandon this thread. You know what they say: Do not feed the trolls [though this perpetuates the false belief that "trolls" are so named after the creature and not the fishing practice].
Well, anyone who would like a reasonable intelligent discussion is welcome to continue talking to me, or you can email me to continue the discussion. I don't mind, and I do like to work through differences with people.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:41 PM
No Tweedle, they're not candy.
Ben, where's the door? It smells of sulphur here.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:42 PM
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:43 PM
I'm also childfree - I don't hate myself and I like talking to my three year old cousin on the phone. I don't hate myself either, or hate my mother for birthing me.
What I do hate are bad/irresponsible parents who don't control or try to discipline their kids. Those kids grow up to be not so nice people.
I'm not going to go out and hunt and beat your children. I don't hate your children. I just want you to discipline them so they don't throw things in my hair at the movies or behave badly during class.
Posted by Arihito | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:43 PM
sorry, couldn't resist
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:44 PM
B: Lets have a child and bring it up to be impolite to trolls? Yeah. Implolite to Trolls... sounds like a good motto.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:48 PM
B: Are those Trolls impaled?
I have a friend from Brasov called Vlad. I've often wondered if he was a relation. Maybe I should call him.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:50 PM
"You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them."
Please don't insult the rest of humanity by trying to pass your own skewed perspective off as "popular perception". I'm openly childfree, and most people understand that all that means is that I don't want to have children of my own.
Give people more credit - they're not all as ignorant and hateful as you are.
And yeah, I do care about that perception, since people like you are doing their damnedest to spread misinformation about what being childfree means. If you're going to keep trying to give us a bad name through misinformation and lies, I'm going to keep defending myself. Hell yeah, I will.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:54 PM
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
Did you not bother to read my reply? I must add that it was one of the few reasonable ones which showed no hatred or disrespect.
I do not care what the mainstream thinks of me. Half of those people are working mediocre jobs and going nowhere in life anyway.
The ignorance of humanity has left me disgusted. If you feel that all of us childfree people go out of our way to harm other people's children then I must admit that you are not very intelligent now are you? I feel very sorry for people who have that mindset. It's somewhat like being racist which is a very ignorant and stupid thing to be. By thinking every person that is childfree hates all children and goes out of their way to harm them, then you are no better than people that are racist.
I've nothing againist people who choose to have kids. Had you read my reply instead of making inaccurate assumptions, you would have seen that.
I'm a successful, intelligent, kind and caring human being who happens to be childfree. Like it or not.
You may continue holding false assumptions toward all of us as a whole but again I will state that this makes you ignorant and having this "holier than thou" attitude won't get you very far.
I don't think I'm better than any person that has a child just because I'm childfree. I'm not stupid enough or arrogant enough to place myself above anyone. I treat everyone with equal respect whether or not they have children and I do not appreciate your "holier than thou" attitude because you are not better than me.
Thank you.
Posted by Ari | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:54 PM
Oh my, Ari. You do project a bit there. Perhaps if you scream a bit louder, we'll really believe you don't care!
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers. You may jump up and down in an aggravated manner whenever this is mentioned, but it will not change the fact that this is the way things are.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:00 PM
I don't bother to counter accusations against childfree people myself. I am childfree, I do hate children, and every now and then I want to drop kick one, but since that would involve legal complications for which I have no time, I restrain myself. I'm happy with who I am and the life I've chosen. If breeders want to breed, do so, keep your fuck trophies out of my way, and we can live in relative peace.
Posted by Sade | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:02 PM
What I think Anonymous is trying to say is "Lalalalala! I can't hear you! lalalala!"
It doesn't matter what we say to this one, s/he'll just keep insisting that his/her skewed perception is somehow correct. S/he doen't want to open his/her mind and see the world out of his/her bubble. Lost cause.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:04 PM
Childfree people I can deal with. Childfree people who don't want children I can respect. Childfree people who feel pressured and ostracized by their families or the wider community, I can sympathize with and support.
Childfree people who flock to communities such as livejournal's "cf_hardcore" because they don't feel free enough to talk about how much they *HATE CHILDREN* in other childfree communities -- I have no respect for. Once you step over that line into hating and loathing children ("Oh, but not YOUR child, just children in general!" Wow, that almost sounded sincere!) then I might as well write you off, because you're not worth my time.
Words mean things, and the words you choose speak volumes about who you are.
There are childfree people out there who hate children. About them, Scalzi speaks for me.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:05 PM
You can't have it both ways. If you are childfree, then you are, in popular perception, someone who hates children and wants to hurt them. You may type until your fingers fall off that this is not the case, but it will not change the majority mainstream opinion one iota. And, please, while I may be just a brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets, I do have enough of a brain left to realize that if you didn't care about this perception, you wouldn't be trying to counter it daily.
The majority mainstream opinion is actually, "WTF is childfree??" and "Oh, you're just going through a phase. You'll change your mind." Unless you just meant of people online...
I don't daily try to counter the misperception of people online. I do try to participate in intelligent discourse, but I don't see why that is a bad thing. I like to resolve issues and reach understanding. I don't mind if you still want to insist that we are all evil baby killers. ::shrugs:: I often deal with that sort of misperception when people find out I'm pro-choice, just as I'm often referred to as a man-hater for being a feminist. I can't force anyone to change their views, and I know that well, but I do like to have discussions to reach an understanding of WHY they hold these views. I like to know why they don't want to give individuals a chance.
And if it helps, I don't think you are a "brainless lil' old breeder spewing out cuntnuggets". I don't know you well enough to make any such assumption.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:08 PM
Well Mr. Anonymous, you may go ahead and think what you like as it's very clear by your close-mindedness, lack of respect, and lack of intelligence that you're yet another worthless human being who has nothing to contribute to society.
You continue with your false assumptions and idiotic close-minded replies. You clearly have some sort of self-esteem issues that you should consider seeking help for, because if you did not, you wouldn't have to disrespect people you don't even know as well as belittle them.
Please grow up and get some help for those self-esteem issues. Good luck.
Posted by Ari | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:15 PM
Poor Ari. It knows there's a target out there somewhere, if it could only find it.
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers. You can continue to call me names and stomp your feet, but neither are magical incantations that will cause this fact to change. You can whip out all the emotional propaganda you can muster, and it still won't change a thing. When you say "childfree" the first and lasting impression someone is has is that you hate and want to hurt children.
The absolute best part about this? I can perpetuate that far more effectively than you can combat it. That's the beauty of being a brainless breeder -- simply by reproducing, society gives the individual me a greater voice than the collective you can ever hope of achieving.
So go on with your name-calling, your categorizations, your hand-waving, and your feet stomping. All I have to do is hold my child in my arms and look hurt and everyone's on my side. I win, no matter what. :-)
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:23 PM
Wow. You certainly are one piece of work.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:26 PM
a work of stupid
Posted by anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:29 PM
Thank you for your feedback, Chad! Acting on feedback is important, as I realize if I ignore my readers, they may go elsewhere for their drama needs.
I'm going to be highly disappointed if the the thread in childfree LJ community isn't bumped up to at least 50 comments soon.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:29 PM
It sounds like "anonymous" likes to use their child in order to win points instead of intelligence. That's wonderful. I feel sory for the kid.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:30 PM
I feel sory for the kid.
I don't, but I do feel embarrassed for the cunt that spawned it.
Posted by Sade | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:31 PM
What a sad, manipulative little person you are. I do so hope you get your rocks off by trying to make people hate you, though. Otherwise, it would all be for nothing.
Well, I think I've been sickened enough for one day.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:33 PM
I will not reply nor will I read anymore of your disrespectful close-minded blather. I have better things to do than associate with close-minded, unintelligent individuals such as yourself.
And quite honestly I fear for any kids you may have because they'll probably turn out close-minded and unintelligent like yourself. But then again, when they grow up they'll be the ones asking me if I would like fries with my meal or end up opening their legs to anyone just to make a decent buck so I need not worry.
Considering your intelligence level I'm going to go ahead and ASSUME (ooh, isin't this fun!) that you either had mediocre grades in college or probably did not go at all. I'm sure you work some crappy 9-5 low paying office job (assumptions are fun!) and are so severely depressed by your mediocre existance that you do not know how to properly channel your anger.
I myself will get back to my steady 4.0 grade average and continue on my way to making more money in 6 months than you'll make in 2 years. You continue working your dead-end job and raising your kids to be as disrespectful and mediocre as you are and be sure to keep up that "holier than thou" mentality. It really shows that you are indeed as useless and meaningless as you make yourself out to be. You make me laugh very hard.
Take care darling. Enjoy your mediocre life. :)
Posted by Ari | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:33 PM
I myself will get back to my steady 4.0 grade average and continue on my way to making more money in 6 months than you'll make in 2 years.
Of course you will, Ari. Of course you will. Because on the Internets, we can be anything we want! And I'm not only a moo, I'm a bazillionaire! lollercaust!
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:36 PM
To paraphrase dootdoot and the statement that all childfree people hate and/or want to hurt children:
"Pro-lifers" bomb abortion clinics.
"Pro-choicers" support indiscriminate murder of babies.
People from the South are uneducated rednecks.
People from California are tree-hugging hippies.
Sounds ridiculous, no? At least most CF are willing to acknowledge that there are such things as "good" parents and "bad" parents. Too bad dootdoot can't do with same with CF.
Posted by dollface | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:37 PM
I think I've been sickened enough for one day.
You mis-spelled "sidetracked," and you're welcome!
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:37 PM
What a sad, manipulative little person you are. I do so hope you get your rocks off by trying to make people hate you, though. Otherwise, it would all be for nothing.
No one can hate him/her because no one knows who he/she is. However, he/she might cause harm to how some parents are viewed, which isn't good. Just keep in mind that this person does NOT represent all parents.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:39 PM
"Just keep in mind that this person does NOT represent all parents."
Didn't think it for a second. Funny thing is, s/he's actually giving the childfree and the good parents one more thing to connect on - disgust with people like him/her. ;)
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:42 PM
It's still disgusting to use her child as a weapon.
What she doesn't know is that money is where the power is. Absolute moron. Apparently her brain fell off with her placenta.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:43 PM
I don't have children.
That now concludes my need to explain my position.
If that were the position of those who choose to identify as "childfree," there wouldn't be much to criticize about them, would there? Ditto if it were just "I'm never going to have kids" or "I can't stand to be around children."
It's the lengthy and elaborate defensive justifications for spewing hatred that gets ya in trouble. As seen above. That trick never works.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:47 PM
Well, I was using it as a doorstop but then it learned to crawl. A weapon is much more effective, and I am totally lollerskating about the fact that most of you know exactly how effective a weapon it is, under most social circumstances. That's what really pisses you off -- knowing that most of us do it without saying it.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:47 PM
Minor typos are not at all as bad as being immature and ignorant. Like dollface said, there are plenty of childfree people such as myself who fully recognize and appreciate the good parents out there. Why don't you recognize and appreciate the childfree people who are just that? We don't have or want children, we're not all hateful idiots.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:49 PM
That's what really pisses you off -- knowing that most of us do it without saying it.
No, most parents do NOT use their children as weapons.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:51 PM
Well, we really don't have to go as far as calling in the heavy artillery. Just by being the majority, we get our way most of the time. For those other situations, just drawing the little ones near and using the tiny, quavering voice automatically corrects the social situation. It's driving the childfree folks commenting here up the wall because they've observed it regularly. I think most parents are in denial about doing this because it's almost an involuntary reaction. It's simply more effective once you realize your doing it and hone your skills.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:55 PM
Your labelling of us is different from labelling you as breeders exactly how? It seems that logic is a foriegn concept here. Also how is posting in childfree communities different from the way you're going into childfree groups to seek things to be offended about? Think about it. And uh, I've never once heard about a childfree person going crazy and killing kids because they don't like them. Do you want to give me an example of this? Or at least stop talking out of your ass. It just seems like some of you are talking out of your asses here instead of using logic and going out of your way to try to offend people which I must say doesn't work too well among the childfrees. They'll just be laughing about this even harder in the communities they're in because they're used to hearing about ignorance among those who have children and think they're better than everyone who don't have children. You really are no better than those childfree people who seriously loathe children and consider themselves to be above "breeders".
Step off your high horse already people. You're no better than anyone else.
Posted by Erin | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:56 PM
I think you're taking yourself too seriously in thinking that your words have that much of an impact.
'lollerskating' 'lollercaust'? I bet you're not even a parent but just some kid messing around. If you really are a parent... wow. You're pathetic.
Posted by anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:58 PM
Gary Farber: Look around you. People don't accept "I don't have kids." They insist on analyzing us...accusing us of hating kids, or hating our parents, or being evil baby killers. We are forced to defend ourselves and our choices all the time. It's enough to make me want to tell people I'm sterile, but then the response would be "There's always IVF!"
Raar.
Posted by dollface | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:00 PM
I think you anonymous person who doesn't even use a screen name is pathetic. You use your child as a weapon because you're not intelligent enough to use your mouth.
Power? What power do you speak of? Our children have power, not us parents. That's why there's CPS and rights for minors against us parents. The school system is for children, not parents. We live our life as parents to educate our child into being proper humans, not to use them to get our way. We don't use them to manipulate and we certainly don't use idiotic words such as this pathetic internet speak.
I'd hate to know what language you are teaching your children and you're setting us women back. We've our own rights but you're making us only as worth as what function we have inbetween our legs.
The childfree people are just addressing what their beliefs are and I respect their opinions because atleast they're not halfwitted twits running around like you having children, thinking they'd give you some sort of higher power.
Posted by parent of three | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:04 PM
No, I just think I am better than all of you.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:05 PM
'lollerskating' 'lollercaust'? I bet you're not even a parent but just some kid messing around. If you really are a parent... wow. You're pathetic.
I just hope they aren't a parent. I hate the idea that anyone would use their child as a tool/weapon. A child is a PERSON. A human being. Damn, I hate kids and try to avoid them, but the last thing I want to hear is them being used as tools/weapons. No one should be harming them. Not their parents, not anyone. ;_; At this point I think this person is just baiting everyone. Now, THAT is pretty sad.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:06 PM
Dammit. Another anonymous poster beat me to it. I would have put it more eloquently, though, something along the lines of "People like you are the reason I have a superiority complex."
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:07 PM
These are absolutely the least funny cock jokes I've ever seen on Unfogged.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:08 PM
I mean that people like you are the reason that I hate myself.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:09 PM
You try to play like "childfree" means, "I have decided not to have children." But that decision is passive; it doesn't involve parent-bashing and commenting on people's blogs and forming internet communities, and all of this "we" and "us" talk. "Childfree" means parent-basher, as you have shown over and over on this thread, and others. Maybe you think, "I'm not a parent basher!" You probably are, but if you really aren't, you should take care before alligning yourself with a group of parent-bashers. I have no sympathy for you. Y
Despite what many of you seem to think, no one here expects you to have children. I really don't care about your personal decision. Why you seem to think I care is ineffable. Keep your decision to yourself.
Most of you also seem to be confused about this post. Perhaps you haven't really read it. Ogged talks about a people who do reprehensible things. Saying that you aren't one of those people doesn't refute the observation. Beyond that, no one has personally accused you of anything. Is your goal to convince use that the "childfrees" are only partially reprehensible? That your hate has arguments behind it? OK, fine. A meager goal, but sure, I'll concede it. I won't concede that I hadn't already thought it before you brought it up again and again. I also won't concede that your arguments are any good. But I'll concede you people are not wholly reprehensible, since you seem to want me to do that.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:10 PM
Oh noes! Another anonymous poster. I WILL NEVAR BELIEVE THE CREDIBILITY OF ANOTHER ANONYMOUS POSTER AGAIN THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY TWO PEOPLE!!!1elevently!
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:10 PM
YOU ARE ALL SO STUPID. STUPID STUPID STUPID. I'M BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU!!!!111oneoneone11!!
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:14 PM
"'Childfree' means parent-basher"
No it doesn't. That's a meaning you're attempting to apply to it for reasons that I cannot wrap my head around, but simple logic says it isn't the actual meaning behind the term or lifestyle. "Childfree" means "free of children", and nothing more.
In short, you're wrong.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:16 PM
And you're all midgets, too! Midgets with albino parents and bats flying out of your mouths.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:16 PM
oh shut the fuck up, Michael.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:16 PM
Power? What power do you speak of? Our children have power, not us parents. That's why there's CPS and rights for minors against us parents. The school system is for children, not parents. We live our life as parents to educate our child into being proper humans, not to use them to get our way. We don't use them to manipulate
Parent of Three, I'm glad when I hear from parents like you. It fills me with hope. Much love! I'm glad you'll be rearing your children into proper civilized beings, and I'm glad you give them the full love they need from you rather than using them as property.
On the bright side, kids who are used sometimes grow to resent their parents and try to avoid ever becoming like them. It's just a shame those kids will ever had to have suffered...
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:16 PM
Parent of 3, thanks for understanding and being smart. You are the type of parent that makes us CFers happy.
Posted by Kris | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:19 PM
yes, goescrunch, but will it happen before they turn into albino midgets with a bad case of batmouth? one can hope.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:19 PM
That's a meaning you're attempting to apply to it for reasons that I cannot wrap my head around
It's quite easy once you quit lying to yourself.
But, let me turn it around; if childfree simply meant what you want it to mean, how on earth did it get to be the situation that most people believe it to mean "parent basher,"?
Or, an analogy. Do you object to calling Al Qaeda a terrorist organization? Even though, in all liklihood, many of its members have not committed a terrorist act? And, after all, the simple meaning of "Al Qaeda" does not translate to terrorist. By how you, all of you, are aruging, it's stupid and wrong to call a member of Al Qaeda of terrorist. But to say that is laughable. And that's why you're not convincing anybody.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:27 PM
Do you have pics of albino midgets? I've only seen the larger variety of albino, but I do not think they have batmouth.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:27 PM
It seems to me that this anonymous person has a personality disorder. They must be an exquisite parent! Anyway, Michael, the childfree communities are for people to rant about stupid parents. This does not mean ranting about ALL parents. There are different communities for different things. Communities like ranting about co workers that piss you off, customers that piss you off, etc. The childfree communities are there for people that are childfree to rant about examples of bad parenting and particularly stupid parents that do stupid things.
The childfree communities are not there to bash all parents and children whenever we see fit. Sure, some members do this, however there's many members who just rant when they see horrible examples of parenting and stupid things they've done which would make people question how great of a parent they really are in real life. The OP obviously went looking for trouble in the first place. She didn't have to go searching for childfree websites and communities and such but she chose to do this. And much like you, no one cares about YOUR decision to have kids either. It doesn't make you special or better than anyone because you've chosen to have them. I'm tired of some parents acting like the world owes them something or should treat them extra special just because they've decided to have kids. Just because a person doesn't want to have kids doesn't make them lower than those that choose to have them or any less of a person. That is such an unintelligent arrogant way to think.
And stop acting like you know what childfree means. Go look up the definition if you want. Unless you're childfree then you probably don't know the correct definition of it. And for the record, not all childfree people are children haters or parent bashers or whatever. That's just yet another silly mindless assumption that needs to be tossed out in the garbage already.
but the point, as my moomie friend informed me, is that these fucked up people flock to the mommy blogs, and leave nasty comments and send vile emails.
Um, yeah. That's all of us alright. We're all evil little people who have nothing better to do than send vile emails and attack parents and children. *rolls eyes* Oh, PLEASE!
Posted by Jennifer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:28 PM
The thing is, most people don't think that. And those who do probably got that idea in their heads because of people like you spreading misinformation, not an actual encounter with a childfree person. The actions of a few people do not reflect an entire group. Your type of perception is the reason so many white people instinctively hold their purses tighter when a black man walks past them.
And since you have no idea what goes on in my head, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me I'm "lying to myself" like an ignorant, arrogant ass.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:31 PM
Oh, and Parent of three, thank you for responding and being respectful of us childfree people and being open-minded and intelligent. Perhaps you can teach these other posters a thing or two about open-mindedness and respect. This shows that you're most likely setting good examples for your children and definitely shows that you're an all around great person. Thanks again!!
Posted by Jennifer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:31 PM
I agree with Jennifer. And the story (not the wording of whoever she quoted, I mean the actual real-life event) that the OP posted is the kind of thing we'd talk about in the kind of cf communities I'm in. We'd talk about how unfortunate it is for a child (or anyone) to endure something like that at the hands of their parents, and why do people have children who they're not going to love, but hurt?
Childfree means free of children. Simply put. There are going to be childfrees out there who are idiots and parents out there who are idiots. Don't make assumptions.
Posted by Kris | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:34 PM
top acting like you know what childfree means. Go look up the definition if you want. Unless you're childfree then you probably don't know the correct definition of it.
Those two statements contradict each other, no? It seems even you aren't silly enough to believe the first one.
Your arugment is that internal ideology of the group and not the group's actions is to be used evaluating what the group stands for? Ridiculous. Parent-bashing is what the Childfree group is best known for, because they do an awful lot of it. It's irrelevant that parent-bashing is not the only thing they do. It is the defining action of the childfree movement. It's the most visible action. Whining to us isn't going to change that.
"NO! NO! Don't look at what we're doing over THERE! Just look over HERE! If you just look in this one little spot, we looks like good guys, honest!"
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:36 PM
Why thank you, goescrunch and Kris. I have an identical sister who is childfree and to be quite honest can only tolerate my kids because they know better than to touch anything that doesn't belong to them. She has a backyard and a couple of dogs but they sit on the sofa until she asks them if they want to go in the back with the dogs and they look up at me to get my permission. Yes, it's strict but no one has ever complained about my children. I run my business from home so I get clients to come over. The worst thing I can do as a business woman and a mother can do is not keep order in the home and children. I suppose while my child remain to be successful people later in life, these people's children can work under them; that is, if my children allow them to be near them.
No, Michael, you have it all wrong. See, to not have children is a not a passive position. Our society engrains this desire to have children and while I had mine because I was financially successful enough to have mine, I think it's a very empowering decision to not fall into these social standards.
These childfree folks are not bashing parents like myself because I am a good parent. If you rear some naughty brats, well then, it applies to you. If you feel it doesn't, no need to be defensive, right?
You have to understand that a lot of these people are actually bothered that children are not reared the correct manner any longer. I very much dislike when my friends bring their kids over because they create such a mess and those little scoundrels don't even have the mind to think that it's impolite to leave such a mess. They interrupt their mother during non emergency events while she's talking and they eat with their mouth open. They also throw things at people and think it's okay to touch other people's belongings. While I was never a childfree adult, I think that is absolutely grotesque. I vowed that if I finally reach financial success, my children will never be that way. In fact, my children are highly intelligent, pleasant, happy and they love to socialize.
There are childfree people who despise children but it's only because it's a matter of preference. They would never even think of wasting their time in harming our children and to be quite frank, I'd trust my children with my sister, who is very childfree more than anyone else. Not because she is my sister and she loves my children but because she has common sense and the mind to know to respect my children as humans and not objects.
Posted by parent of three | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:36 PM
Michael! Stop it!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:37 PM
So if a family member of yours were to murder someone and became infamous for it, it'd be a-okay for me to label your entire family as "muderers"?
How tragically simple you are.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:38 PM
And Jennifer, I'm a bit curious, why *did* you join the childfree community? My gf is very open about never wanting to bear children, and we live in a very conservative state, but she's never gotten any flak and I guarantee she's never wanted to join any online community to talk about her decision or to search the web looking for places to proselytize her belief. I just can't fathom the impetus for such.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:40 PM
Chad, you see no difference between a community of people you willfully join and between a community of people you're born into?
What was that about being too simple?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:44 PM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415906784/qid=1111181596/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0181276-0799133
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Posted by Here, have some books on the subject | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:44 PM
And I am outta here, off the computer.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:44 PM
*thunderous applause from the CF section for parent of three*
Posted by dollface | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:45 PM
I joined the childfree community because I myself have been childfree for quite some time. When I came across a community for it, I joined because it was nice to be able to speak with other childfree people like myself from all over the place. That is the very reason why I've joined. I can't speak for everyone else but since I've been a member, I've not once bashed any parents or children unless they've done something worth posting about. A good example would be when a mother and daughter were shopping in my store and I saw the mother giving her child items to "hide" in her pockets. Or the time a child called her mommy a "bitch" and then the mommy proceeded to hit said child on the head causing a big scene. But my prime reasoning for joining up in childfree communities were so I could talk with other childfree people such as myself.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:47 PM
Thanks again, Parent of Three. Seriously. Your argument to Michael is right on. I'd like to add that perhaps the reason he so adamantly believes that the ENTIRE childfree community is full of angry child-haters is because those kinds of people like to start online journals and such and that's all he knows. But the fact that he hasn't come across some politically correct childfree blog doesn't excuse him from coming to the reasonable conclusion that not every childfree person is an angry child-hater. Can he really believe that I'm a terrible person just because I do not have the desire to have children?
Posted by Kris | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:47 PM
Sorry, I forgot to put Jennifer in my name. The above post is from me Michael.
Posted by Jennifer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:47 PM
Then change "family" to "political party", "fraternity", "book club", whatever. You're trying to generalize people because you, for some reason, simply don't want to accept individuals in a group as the individuals they are. It's an idiotic way of thinking, which actually suits you perfectly.
Adios.
Posted by Chad Ferguson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:47 PM
or to search the web looking for places to proselytize her belief.
We're not some crazy religious fundies. We don't want to force others to be like us. We just want for everyone to acknowledge - DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS. Being childfree is no better and no worse than not being childfree.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:51 PM
Okay, so a lot of intense emotions and jackassery from both sides of the fence today. Not all childfree community members are baby eaters, not all parents are breederific sows. However, both parties seem to have image problems that they don't want to confront, beyond shouting down anyone who dares to mention them.
Ah, Internet.
Posted by we all live in a yellow subroutine | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:52 PM
you childfree pople are really idiodic. we decided to hav kids. you dident. thats yuor fuckup not ours. it makes up better then you because we chose to have them and make more kids for the next jeneration of people so that the world can continu living. your really stupid for not having kids and really selfish so just go away ok.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:55 PM
Trust me, I get slack from "moos" all the time. They think that I'm too strict. What's funny is that I've never had to raise my voice nor physically discipline even the most rebellious of my children. I've always believed that my children are capable enough to know right and wrong when consequences were explained. I always told them that if they did this, this would happen, and if they did this, this would happen and gave them a choice. If they picked the bad choice, then they knew what was coming and I explain that while it was a mistake, it's to learn from.
They also think my children are robotic because in public, they always wait for my response before an action but at home, they're carefree, get to run around wherever they want but they always clean up after themselves. How bad is that? I suppose it's as bad as the childfree who don't want children.
There's always a spectrum of people associated within a title. There's the left and right wings of politics, etc. People of lesser intelligence don't understand that. I pity those who use their child as weapons, nonetheless. Their children will grow to resent them and throw them into the old folk's cage. You know what? That's fine by me. I have money saved up as it is to have a nice retirement fund and fund all three children's college education post grad. Atleast my children are taken care of.
There's nothing wrong with joining a childfree community. It's the same reason why us parents join communities: to share woes, joys and to vent.
Posted by parent of three | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:56 PM
LEARN TO SPELL #150
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:58 PM
150, not having children is not a fuck-up. At all. Look into the concept of free will.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 3:02 PM
Not eating muffins is a fuckup! GO EAT MUFFINS! ALL OF YOU!
Actually, everyone should just go have some ice cream. Then we'll all feel better. Ice cream makes everyone happy. Except me. I'm lactose intolerant. I will have Rice Dream. Then we can all be spiffy, and maybe all the wankery can stop and there can actually be some sort of semi-intelligent discourse.
Posted by goescrunch | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 3:07 PM
MY MOTHER DIED IN A RICE FIELD YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD
Can we have chocolate mint?
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 3:23 PM
I'm sure we're all seriously worried about the next "jeneration." This world is overpopulated already. That doesn't mean that people who will become good parents shouldn't be having children now, but us childfree people aren't taking society a step back or anything.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 3:34 PM
Once again, the public perception of childfree = child haters, child harmers.
How the HELL do you figure that?
Interesting...I'm a parent, and I've never EVER thought that about those who chose to be childfree.
You...outta the gene pool, and make sure to get spuetured before you reproduce again. I can't speak for other parents, but I sure as HELL don't want you on my side.
Posted by Talon | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 4:48 PM
i am openly child-free and love children. i just realize that i shouldn't have them.
every stance has the negative stereotype - the people who scream the loudest. on every side you have to shift through the BS to find people who responsibly choose their course in life. :)
Posted by unmuse | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 5:45 PM
I'm in college right now, and, because I work and go to school, I see a lot of the results of bad parenting firsthand in the form of most of my peers. Many of these kids don't know apropriate behaviour between someone working in a service position and the customer, and even worse is they don't understand general etiquette for everyday interactions. I shouldn't have to deal with people while they apologize to the person they're chatting on their cell phone with while giving me a dirty look because they need to make a transaction. I shouldn't have to deal with complete strangers touching me in an inapropriate manner, and I especially shouldn't have to deal with it because I don't know them. I also shouldn't have to be treated like I'm mentally deficient because I have a job at my age (22).
I'm mostly frustrated by the bad behaviour and the fact that most of the kids that I see in this area that I am going to school in don't have manners, think I'm being an ass when I try to politely tell them to not do something that makes me uncomfortable, and didn't understand or think twice about any non-verbal cues I gave them before I had to tell them. Right now I'm not ready to have children, and being told that I'm being selfish by not having kids is a ridiculous presumption. My academic interests mean that I'll be in school for at least another two years after I graduate, and after that I'm planning on working in a museum or cultural center. By the time I get in there, I'll probably be teaching through that center and I'll be providing a resource out there for the kids that are already there. Sometimes the fulfillment that some seek in child-rearing can be achieved through other means, and right now I'm still on the fence as to whether I want to have children. If I do have children, however, I will do my best to have them understand apropriate rules of conduct in the society they grow up in. I'm tired of being hit, yelled at, treated rudely, and dealt with inapropriately by a bunch of children whose parents decided that money is a replacement for interaction with their children.
As far as childfree people, I believe that most of them (like most of any group) mean well and are linked by good intentions in their decision not to have children. Like most groups, there are the people who stand out because their behaviour is inapropriate and typical of the crazy/fundamentalist variety in any social group. Comparing fundamentalist childfree to the average childfree person is like saying that fundamentalist Christians are how every Christian is on the face of this planet. We all know that's not true. Not all parents are bad parents either, but we notice bad parenting more readily because of squalling children who can't be controlled.
Posted by nashiitashii | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 6:04 PM
"Ask and ye shall receive!"
Frankly, it's rather silly to claim that "there's no such thing as too much mommy blogging". Goofballs like you are the sort of eternally whining "parents" who complain that motherhood is so difficult these days. If that's as true as you insist, most of that blogging time would be better spent on parenting your children.
Posted by EverWatcher | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:10 PM
I am childfree because I really have fun just being myself and don't want to be responsible for another human being.
I love two of my nieces, but cannot tolerate the other one because she is completely undisciplined (separate households raising the girls).
Well behaved intelligent children are a joy.
Undisciplined, poorly parented youngsters make me want to introduce a bill requiring people to procure a license before breeding.
I think a lot of "parents" get upset about the "childfree community" because it is one sect that does not feel that their child is the special precious little miracle that they so desperately feel everyone should see.
Remember - babies are NOT "miracles" - they're a bodily function. Miracle would imply something out-of-the-ordinary, not something that any two people having a penis and a vagina can do by simply following nature.
Thank you to all the good parents on this blog.
:)
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 3:22 AM
I work with children on a daily basis. This is enough to make me never want to have my own. Not because I hate them, but I just don't want any of my own. I don't have a problem with well behaved children, who don't scream, hit, and knock things off shelves when they're in public. It's the latter that make me want to get m y tubes tied.
Maybe you feel that childfree people are evil because they glare at your children when they are misbehaving?
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 11:40 AM
If parents are flipping out this much about those of us who are childfree, I can only imagine that their little brains will implode when they discover communities dedicated to telling dead baby jokes.
Posted by ButteredToast! | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 2:28 PM
"Look around you. People don't accept 'I don't have kids.' They insist on analyzing us...accusing us of hating kids, or hating our parents, or being evil baby killers."
And yet, looking around me, I note that I'm 46 years old, able to reproduce, have no children, and not a single time in my entire life to date has a single person ever once asked me why I didn't have children, or made a statement I'm aware of on the topic of my lack of children. You can find tens of thousands of posts from me on Usenet without the subject ever coming up; you can find three years of blogging from me without a single comment from anyone on the topic.
I'd put it down to my magic anti-hatred powers, but people yammer complaints to me all the time about zillions of other things, so that doesn't seem to be the answer to why I am magically untouched by the evil oppression of the childless/"childfree."
I wonder whatever it could be.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 2:51 PM
Gary... if that's your name you appear to be male. I don' t know why, but people feel much more comfortable asking women personal questions on this topic. I have been asked (and then had my answer disbelieved) many times.
Posted by Female, 27, CF | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 4:33 PM
Not all childfree people are evil child hating monsters, just as not all parents are moronic slackjawed asswipes who never actually do any "parenting". Sadly, there's assholes in every possible grouping of humans. Please don't lump me in with the assholes simply because I choose to live my life without creating offspring.
I don't hate kids or their parents, for the most part. I hate UNDISCIPLINED, POORLY-BEHAVED kids whose parents think they are ENTITLED to ANYTHING simply because they have kids. I Hate parents who refuse to DISCIPLINE their unruly children, and feel it's ok to inflict said undisciplined, badly behaved little scream-monkeys on the general public. I especially hate the parents who expect me to kowtow to them because they have kids and I don't. I shouldn't have to work extra hours because they had kids. I shouldn't have to hear their kids scream during a movie, nor have them kick my seat repeatedly. I shouldn't have to act differently around them because THE KIDS ARE PRESENT. My entertainment shouldn't be censored to save THEIR CHILDREN-they need to be parents, and keep their kids away from whatever they don't approve of ratyher than curtail MY freedoms.
Have kids, enjoy them, raise them well. Discipline them when they need it, take them OUT of public plces when they behave badly, and most of all, respect MY right to not creat kids if I do not want to. have one for me, if you like. I'll salute you for it......as long as the kid behaves.
BTW, I don't hate my "breeder" parents. They raised me with proper respect for others (especially adults), and gave me discipline so I could grow up to be a respectful, well behaved, decent person. The term "breeder" when used in a derogatory fashion denotes a BAD PARENT, the kind who indulges a kid's every whim and creates a spoiled little monster. MOO stands for "Mother Obsessed with Offspring", not "moo cow". A MOO is a mother who spoils her kid, and feels that everyone else should as well, as HER child is the best in the whole world, and above all others no matter how badly behaved he/she is. Please feel free to do your homework before making an attack, even if you feel it is actually a "counter attack", and remember that not all of us are like the assholes who make everyone in a particular group of humans look bad.
Posted by badspock | Link to this comment | 03-20-05 9:37 PM
Gary, the answer is simple. You're a man.
Posted by dollface | Link to this comment | 03-21-05 10:16 AM
Late to the party, as usual, but whatever....
apostropher: In my experience, what really cheeses off the "childfree" people
What's wrong, cupcake? The word sticks in your mouth because you'd rather say "the bitter and barren people"?
...is that those of us with children go home from work at 5:00 and don't come in on weekends because, you know, we have children.
"Because, you know, we've spawned Da Fyootur, so you should bow down and worship us, and give up all your work-related benefits for our sake."
My response is generally, "Your problem shouldn't be with parents, but with a boss that expects you to work uncompensated overtime. Quit being such a whiny assmartyr and just go home."
Try reading this journal. I mean, since you have so much time to post whiny crap online instead of doing TMIJITW-tm-.
Posted by Reginleif | Link to this comment | 03-22-05 7:03 AM
Sigh. These steps again?
The CF do *not* bash parents. They bash *bad* parents constantly. They do not bash the parents with children that are well behaved in public places. They constantly bash the parents who take their children places they are not equipped for. They do not bash parents who properly care for their children and keep them safe. They constantly bash parents who pull such crap as abandoning their children in sweltering cars for the entire day. Kee-rist, they'd put you in jail if you treated a dog like that, but do it to your own child and you get a stern look from a police officer. If you're unlucky.
Fall of 2001 I was on vacation in Banff. The rental car company had saddled me with an SUV. I had asked for the cheapest car they had. It had about 2 feet of ground clearance. It was HUGE! So I'm in the motel parking lot. I start the engine. I look around to see if it's clear to back out. And here comes moomie, duhdie, toddler sprog, and mop dog. And the dog goes diagonally under the truck, back right tire to front left. And I'm watching the breedersons, and they are just standing there with the big aquatic plant look on their faces. So, I just wait, with the truck still in Park, as I fear I know what's coming.
The toddler follows the dog, under the truck, diagonally, back right tire to front left. Under a truck with the engine running. And the vapid smiling aquatic plants just stand there watching.
So I get out of the truck, walk back where they are, and kneel down and look under the truck to be sure there are no more. And the bovine-like parents *still* had no clue there was anything untoward. They simply continued on to their room, mindlessly ignoring their child and dog. Why, parenting is the Most Important Job In The World. It says so right on the label.
*THIS* is the sort of parent that the CF bash. And with no fear or hesitation or reseraviation.
Posted by puppet_sock | Link to this comment | 03-22-05 9:41 AM
"I'd put it down to my magic anti-hatred powers, but people yammer complaints to me all the time about zillions of other things, so that doesn't seem to be the answer to why I am magically untouched by the evil oppression of the childless/"childfree."
I wonder whatever it could be."
Probably people take one look at you and know that nobody would ever have sex with you, so they know you'll never have children (unless socks or hand towels can get pregnant).
Posted by ha | Link to this comment | 03-23-05 9:40 PM
These are absolutely the least funny cock jokes I've ever seen on Unfogged.
This is absolutely the most mind-boggling thread I've ever seen on Unfogged, period. I am literally blown away by the fact that there are this many people who feel this way. Not just the passive "I don't want to have kids", but actively "childfrei". Unbelievable.
Posted by Walter Sobchak | Link to this comment | 03-23-05 10:38 PM
As with those unbelievably 'active' gays, blacks, or hispanics who don't just passively *not* be straight or white, but actually *talk* about it.
In groups, no less!
Truly, mindblowing.
Enormous props to mother of three/Talon. The world definitely needs more parents like you.
Perhaps I'll enlist. Perhaps not.
But really, who cares what people do with their bodies/lives so long as they hurt no one else?
Posted by Claire | Link to this comment | 04- 8-05 5:40 AM
Ha, if that is your real name.....I surely hope you don't have children, seeing as how you haven't reached full maturity. And help us all if you do, and raise your kids to be as hateful and idiotic as you are.
Posted by Marie | Link to this comment | 04-12-05 10:54 AM
"Crotch droppings" does not mean all children. The term applies to whiney, spoiled, bratty children who throw temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store/movie theater/public place/ad nauseum and gets no response from the parent."
I'll remeber that the next time I hear a child-free idiot OBVIOUSLY apply it across the board
Posted by Neil | Link to this comment | 07-11-05 3:40 PM
All Childfree people hate children and parents. It's in the very words they speak. Just go over to CF hardcore and read the first page or two, it's obvious. My question is, why are so many CF'ers gigantic fatasses? Goescrunch for example, HUGE GOTH CHICK, I MEAN HUGE! All CF'ers can fuck off. A CF'er once had something to say to me about my (10 month old) daughter crying in Target. I dragged him out into the parking lot and knocked out three of his teeth! Good times! He made a big scene about it and called the cops. You should have seen the look on his face when the cop showed up and called me by my first name, as in, "Hey *****, what's up?" The crestfallen look on his face was priceless. I got 4 hours community service and my record expunged. He's still minus three teeth. That's the way it should be. I will kick the ass of any CF'er who dares open their fat mouth to me, my wife, or my children.
Posted by Zing Zang | Link to this comment | 08-23-05 12:22 PM
I happened to link to this while doing a Google search on "childfree."
I do not want to sound trollish, but I do feel I need to defend myself. I am childfree. I made the choice, several years ago. My husband and I both feel that having children is inappropriate. I had a very tough childhood and young-adulthood, living in some bad and very codependent relationships. IOW, I lived for others, not for me. Now it's my time to live for me, and make myself happy, after 29 years of not doing that. My husband also has health issues that could considerably shorten his life, and he does not want to die, leaving me with a child to raise on my own.
I believe that it is a lifestyle choice, and FOR ME, it works. I am content, and have peace of mind. Like a clock I saw once online says, "My biological clock is NOT ticking."
For others, having kids is the right lifestyle for them. And that's fine. I don't hate kids. I cannot stand bratty kids, bratty behavior, and bratty, pushy parents. But I do adore my nieces and nephews, and have seen firsthand what good parents, my sisters-in-law are. They are raising kind, considerate, happy kids whom I love to babysit and spoil rotten, hehehe.
What I don't appreciate is being preached to, and told I'll change my mind, and that it's different when they're my own kids. Sorry, but I have the right to make a lifestyle choice. I just don't appreciate being prejudiced against. And I actually do stand up at work, when told I don't have kids so overtime shouldn't be a problem. I do have a family: my husband and my cat are family. Just because I choose not to bear children, does not mean that I do not have a life.
Again, I'm not here to be a troll. But, I do mind when I'm prejudiced against, called "terrible" and "selfish" when you don't even know me, know my situation, and don't bother to.
Can't we just learn to respect each other and learn to be a bit more openminded? That would rock!
*stepping off soapbox and returning to my day*
Posted by Heather | Link to this comment | 09- 5-05 11:06 AM
My boyfriend and I have been dating for 2 years now. I love kids but;dislike spoiled,bratty kids with no manners. My boyfriend has a 15 year old son and has never been made to thank someone whenever they give him a gift-such as me. I was appauled. His son went into his room and slammed the door when I went to my boyfriends house for the first time and refused to talk to me. I tried starting a conversation with his son but;he gave me a look like"I wish you were dead". I've always been nothing but nice to this kid. There are no set rules with my boyfriends son. He does'nt crack a book or get good grades and is always out having a high old time with his friends but;yet my boyfriend rewards him with gifts all the time-expensive gifts like a bass guitar and amplifier,computer and whatever he wants he gets! I told my boyfriend that I will not live with him as long as his son is "in the picture". His son controls him and tells him to get off the phone. I've broken off with him 3 times but he keeps coming back to me. But;I can't see where anything has changed with his disrespectful;unruly son. What do I do? My boyfriend is nice but;he has the "son from hell"!!! Need advice....... Nancy
Posted by Nancy | Link to this comment | 10- 4-05 1:26 PM
You need a boyfriend who doesn't already have kids, Nancy.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 4-05 1:29 PM
moaning Typical sounds of sex Marty watched for a moment then shook gambling zone Not much later Marty walked up the steps of his future high school .
Posted by Arturo Baby | Link to this comment | 01-18-06 10:26 AM