I've been familiar with Ronnie Earle for a long time, and met him once, and he seems like a great guy. Also, and quite apart from what I just said above, I hope he nails DeLay's ass.
As for Lindsay Graham, he just confirms the truism that "The South Will Rise Again" types are, behind that thin veneer of faux-genteel machismo, the biggest crybabies EVAR.
I have a fondness for Graham, as he was the only Republican I remember getting upset about Abu Ghraib (sp?). From Steve Gillard's (liberal) blog:
"Graham, who isn't known for playing the race card, is being unfairly attacked. He's not talking about slavery, but the burning of the state capital, Columbia, in 1865. Without context, it sounds horribly racist, but what people don't widely realize is that Sherman's march to the Sea didn't end at Savannah, but continued well into the Carolinas and ended at New Bern, NC in April, 1865. In fact, Sherman's Army of the Tennessee destroyed far more in South Carolina than Georgia. And this is what Graham is talking about. Not some longing for slaves."
Ok, thanks, Tim. But that South Carolina statehouse is that one that still has a Confederate flag flying in front of it, and maybe the apostropher can set us straight, but it's pretty hard to disentangle "pride" and "heritage" from race, where all this is concerned.
I agree with you that he deserves props for his reaction to Abu Ghraib.
But I don't buy the second part. While I'm perfectly willing to believe that he's not racist, he's most definitely playing the race card, albeit in a veiled manner. Maybe he's just doing it to shore up election support, and doesn't really believe it, but then that's not praiseworthy either, is it?
My initial reaction was the same as yours (plus disappointment). Then I came across the Gillard bit; in matters of Southern racism and slavery, I tend to defer to the black man in the room.
It is hard to disentangle race from heritage down here and, frankly, South Carolina has open racism in a way that most other southern states do not.
But.
Sherman's March to the Sea was the greatest war crime ever committed on American soil. Rounding up Japanese-Americans into internment camps is utterly trivial beside it, and I don't say that lightly. That Sherman was a general for the side with the higher moral ground overall doesn't erase the atrocity.
I've had a weird kind of affection for Lindsey Graham ever since the impeachment debacle, even though I can't stand his politics. As a southern conservative, he has a kind of integrity and capacity for being interesting which, say, a Trent Lott will never have.
On race, I seem to recall a quote from Graham during the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina defending Bob Jones University's policies on interracial dating. (Graham has, I think, an honorary degree from the school. He also endorsed McCain in the primary). What was interesting about the quote is that, unlike everyone else, he wasn't denying that the school's dating policies reflected its attempt to hold onto the last vestiges of its explicitly white supremacist ideology. He just said that we need to put that desire in the context of all the social upheaval, and loss of standing, that white southerners have had to endure during the last 40 or so years. Now, obviously, that's an offensive sentiment, especially given that racial minorities are constantly being asked to "get over" things were actual injustices, as opposed to simply the loss of undeserved privileges. But I still vaguely admire his candor. He's at least conceding that much of the cultural politics of the South has to do with the wounded pride of white southerners, and recognizing that that's something to be at least a little embarrassed about, even as he pleads for empathy. That seems a much more admirable stance than the practiced cluelessness of our President with regard to racial symbolism, or the angry defiance of a Jesse Helms, though, admittedly, that's setting the bar pretty low.
Maybe I just haven't read enough about the Civil War, but my impression of the March To The Sea was that Sherman cut himself loose from his lines of supply and lived off the land until he got to Savanah. This involved a lot of taking food and burning down of everything they found. It being war, I'm sure there was quite a bit of human unpleasantness involved, but I don't believe it was "the greatest war crime ever committed on American soil." If you want to limit it white people being mean to other white people, you might be right. But even in the Civil War, the siege of Vicksburg was probably worse for those involved.
From what I've read, when Sherman turned north to go help Grant, he told his men that they were going to march through South Carolina, the state that started the war, so they should really spare no effort in their ravening. Based on that, I'd have to say that The March To The Sea wasn't even the worst thing Sherman did in 1865.
This is something that I need to do more reading on, so straighten me out if I'm wrong, but my impression of Sherman's March is that it entailed huge amounts of property damage, but not all that much killing (given that it was in the context of an ongoing war). If that's roughly accurate, I think that knocks it out of the running for worst war-crime ever committed on American soil.
Okay, perhaps "worst ever" is a bit hyperbolic, given Sherman's later campaigns against the Indian populations. However, there was plenty of killing during Sherman's March (much moreso in SC than GA or NC); it was simply aimed more at civilians than soldiers, as per his concept of total war, which aimed to preserve his own ranks by avoiding pitched battles, but demoralizing the civilian population through brutality.
I'm really not defending the neo-Confederates here, though it may appear so. Just, y'know, there is a historical reason that South Carolina has some ambivalence about Lincoln.
I get that, apostropher, but that was 140 years ago. Time to get over it.
WWII ended only 60 years ago, and much of Germany and Japan were completely devastated during the war, including huge numbers of civilian deaths. Would you give any slack to a politician from Dresden or Nagasaki who mollycoddled folks who kept loudly and publicly proclaiming the honor and grand tradition of Nazi or Imperial Japanese society, particularly its military?
Also, while I agree that what happened during Sherman's March to the Sea was a greater crime, the Japanese internment camps are scarier to me because they're more recent, they didn't occur at the end of a savagely fought war, but rather at its beginning, and they recieved the official endorsement of the Supreme Court.
My Dad (from Queens, in the Army in '59-'61) has great stories of being stationed in Georgia, and hanging out in bars soliciting donations for the W.T. Sherman Memorial, to be built in the form of an eternal flame in the shape of Georgia. Apparently the shock and disbelief that this proposal created in the Georgians listening to him generally lasted long enough that he could flee before getting beaten up.
in matters of Southern racism and slavery, I tend to defer to the black man in the room.
What if that black man were Alan Keyes? Or Louis Farrakhan?
Not that Gilliard is anything like either of those two, but then that's precisely my point, just because he's black doesn't mean he's right, no matter the topic.
I see what Gilliard is saying, but I still don't buy that all that's going on is a reference to the burning of the capitol. I think Graham is specifically courting certain voters with such sentiments, and should be called on it.
I know what you mean, but it's more than just Graham choosing not to celebrate a holiday. It's about him publicly announcing that he doesn't and basically celebrating the fact that he and folk like him don't celebrate it. He's publically saying "I'm one of y'all" to neo-Cons, affirming and celebrating that identity.
It's taken a bit to check back on the thread. My 'not the worst war crime' comment was a (much too veiled) allusion to the matter of the displacement the original inhabitants. The number of (admittedly commited by both sides) out and out massacres of noncombatants that occured makes Sherman's depredations pale in comparison. And yes, I would count it as war.
Would you give any slack to a politician from Dresden or Nagasaki who mollycoddled folks who kept loudly and publicly proclaiming the honor and grand tradition of Nazi or Imperial Japanese society, particularly its military?
I'm pulling this out of my ass, but isn't there a monument in the Imperial gardens in Tokyo to the fallen WWII soldiers, explicitly including kamikazis, that the Prime Minister goes and pays his respects to every year? I'm not saying they're exactly equivalent, but there are instances where, say, we look away out of convenience.
mike d, I believe you're referring to the Nakasone shrine. And I don't cut the politicians who visit it any slack. But seeing as I'm not a Japanese citizen, they don't pay me much mind.
Re: the Yasukuni shrine, it's not the kamikaze pilots who are controversial, it's the soldiers who carried out atrocities in China and Korea. Read "The Rape of Nanking"--it's pretty appalling. (Also, there's a lot of Japanese historical revisionism and denial about their well-documented war crimes, but that's another story.)
I don't think the US gets upset about Koizumi visiting the shrine each year, but the Chinese and Koreans sure do!
Oops, Yakasuni, not Nakasone. Nakasone was Japanese prime minister, back in the 80s if I remember correctly (there's a joke in there somewhere about all Asians, or at least their names, looking alike to big noses llike me). And yep, I know from personal experience how (justly) upset Chinese get about this issue. Germany has gone a very long way to deal with and repudiate its past. Japan, hardly at all, and its primary victims in the region haven't forgotten.
This has reminded me of the controversy surrounding Reagan's visit to the cemetery in Bitberg.
I've been familiar with Ronnie Earle for a long time, and met him once, and he seems like a great guy. Also, and quite apart from what I just said above, I hope he nails DeLay's ass.
As for Lindsay Graham, he just confirms the truism that "The South Will Rise Again" types are, behind that thin veneer of faux-genteel machismo, the biggest crybabies EVAR.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 5:17 PM
I have a fondness for Graham, as he was the only Republican I remember getting upset about Abu Ghraib (sp?). From Steve Gillard's (liberal) blog:
"Graham, who isn't known for playing the race card, is being unfairly attacked. He's not talking about slavery, but the burning of the state capital, Columbia, in 1865. Without context, it sounds horribly racist, but what people don't widely realize is that Sherman's march to the Sea didn't end at Savannah, but continued well into the Carolinas and ended at New Bern, NC in April, 1865. In fact, Sherman's Army of the Tennessee destroyed far more in South Carolina than Georgia. And this is what Graham is talking about. Not some longing for slaves."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 6:18 PM
Ok, thanks, Tim. But that South Carolina statehouse is that one that still has a Confederate flag flying in front of it, and maybe the apostropher can set us straight, but it's pretty hard to disentangle "pride" and "heritage" from race, where all this is concerned.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 6:29 PM
I agree with you that he deserves props for his reaction to Abu Ghraib.
But I don't buy the second part. While I'm perfectly willing to believe that he's not racist, he's most definitely playing the race card, albeit in a veiled manner. Maybe he's just doing it to shore up election support, and doesn't really believe it, but then that's not praiseworthy either, is it?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 6:32 PM
Mitch:
My initial reaction was the same as yours (plus disappointment). Then I came across the Gillard bit; in matters of Southern racism and slavery, I tend to defer to the black man in the room.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 6:46 PM
It is hard to disentangle race from heritage down here and, frankly, South Carolina has open racism in a way that most other southern states do not.
But.
Sherman's March to the Sea was the greatest war crime ever committed on American soil. Rounding up Japanese-Americans into internment camps is utterly trivial beside it, and I don't say that lightly. That Sherman was a general for the side with the higher moral ground overall doesn't erase the atrocity.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 7:00 PM
I've had a weird kind of affection for Lindsey Graham ever since the impeachment debacle, even though I can't stand his politics. As a southern conservative, he has a kind of integrity and capacity for being interesting which, say, a Trent Lott will never have.
On race, I seem to recall a quote from Graham during the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina defending Bob Jones University's policies on interracial dating. (Graham has, I think, an honorary degree from the school. He also endorsed McCain in the primary). What was interesting about the quote is that, unlike everyone else, he wasn't denying that the school's dating policies reflected its attempt to hold onto the last vestiges of its explicitly white supremacist ideology. He just said that we need to put that desire in the context of all the social upheaval, and loss of standing, that white southerners have had to endure during the last 40 or so years. Now, obviously, that's an offensive sentiment, especially given that racial minorities are constantly being asked to "get over" things were actual injustices, as opposed to simply the loss of undeserved privileges. But I still vaguely admire his candor. He's at least conceding that much of the cultural politics of the South has to do with the wounded pride of white southerners, and recognizing that that's something to be at least a little embarrassed about, even as he pleads for empathy. That seems a much more admirable stance than the practiced cluelessness of our President with regard to racial symbolism, or the angry defiance of a Jesse Helms, though, admittedly, that's setting the bar pretty low.
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 8:08 PM
Agreed about Graham. I don't like the crowd he hangs around with, and I don't much agree with his politics, but all in all, he's one of the good guys.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 8:29 PM
Just read "Graham" as "Gabraham" and thought I missed a post by FL.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 8:35 PM
google's html version
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 9:16 PM
How did pdf ever succeed?
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 9:16 PM
Maybe I just haven't read enough about the Civil War, but my impression of the March To The Sea was that Sherman cut himself loose from his lines of supply and lived off the land until he got to Savanah. This involved a lot of taking food and burning down of everything they found. It being war, I'm sure there was quite a bit of human unpleasantness involved, but I don't believe it was "the greatest war crime ever committed on American soil." If you want to limit it white people being mean to other white people, you might be right. But even in the Civil War, the siege of Vicksburg was probably worse for those involved.
From what I've read, when Sherman turned north to go help Grant, he told his men that they were going to march through South Carolina, the state that started the war, so they should really spare no effort in their ravening. Based on that, I'd have to say that The March To The Sea wasn't even the worst thing Sherman did in 1865.
Posted by Hank | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 9:22 PM
Y'know, it has to be a war to be a war crime.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 9:32 PM
wasn't even the worst thing Sherman did in 1865.
But you're right about this. I'd conflated the two events.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 9-05 9:34 PM
This is something that I need to do more reading on, so straighten me out if I'm wrong, but my impression of Sherman's March is that it entailed huge amounts of property damage, but not all that much killing (given that it was in the context of an ongoing war). If that's roughly accurate, I think that knocks it out of the running for worst war-crime ever committed on American soil.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 8:09 AM
Okay, perhaps "worst ever" is a bit hyperbolic, given Sherman's later campaigns against the Indian populations. However, there was plenty of killing during Sherman's March (much moreso in SC than GA or NC); it was simply aimed more at civilians than soldiers, as per his concept of total war, which aimed to preserve his own ranks by avoiding pitched battles, but demoralizing the civilian population through brutality.
I'm really not defending the neo-Confederates here, though it may appear so. Just, y'know, there is a historical reason that South Carolina has some ambivalence about Lincoln.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 9:33 AM
I get that, apostropher, but that was 140 years ago. Time to get over it.
WWII ended only 60 years ago, and much of Germany and Japan were completely devastated during the war, including huge numbers of civilian deaths. Would you give any slack to a politician from Dresden or Nagasaki who mollycoddled folks who kept loudly and publicly proclaiming the honor and grand tradition of Nazi or Imperial Japanese society, particularly its military?
Also, while I agree that what happened during Sherman's March to the Sea was a greater crime, the Japanese internment camps are scarier to me because they're more recent, they didn't occur at the end of a savagely fought war, but rather at its beginning, and they recieved the official endorsement of the Supreme Court.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:04 AM
My Dad (from Queens, in the Army in '59-'61) has great stories of being stationed in Georgia, and hanging out in bars soliciting donations for the W.T. Sherman Memorial, to be built in the form of an eternal flame in the shape of Georgia. Apparently the shock and disbelief that this proposal created in the Georgians listening to him generally lasted long enough that he could flee before getting beaten up.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:08 AM
in matters of Southern racism and slavery, I tend to defer to the black man in the room.
What if that black man were Alan Keyes? Or Louis Farrakhan?
Not that Gilliard is anything like either of those two, but then that's precisely my point, just because he's black doesn't mean he's right, no matter the topic.
I see what Gilliard is saying, but I still don't buy that all that's going on is a reference to the burning of the capitol. I think Graham is specifically courting certain voters with such sentiments, and should be called on it.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:10 AM
Time to get over it.
No argument from me about that.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:17 AM
a politician from Dresden or Nagasaki
I think the more apt analogy here would be a Nagasaki politician who was ambivalent about celebrating a Truman holiday, IYKWIM.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:19 AM
I know what you mean, but it's more than just Graham choosing not to celebrate a holiday. It's about him publicly announcing that he doesn't and basically celebrating the fact that he and folk like him don't celebrate it. He's publically saying "I'm one of y'all" to neo-Cons, affirming and celebrating that identity.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 10:25 AM
It's taken a bit to check back on the thread. My 'not the worst war crime' comment was a (much too veiled) allusion to the matter of the displacement the original inhabitants. The number of (admittedly commited by both sides) out and out massacres of noncombatants that occured makes Sherman's depredations pale in comparison. And yes, I would count it as war.
Posted by Hank | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 11:25 AM
Fair enough. I cede the point.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 12:05 PM
Would you give any slack to a politician from Dresden or Nagasaki who mollycoddled folks who kept loudly and publicly proclaiming the honor and grand tradition of Nazi or Imperial Japanese society, particularly its military?
I'm pulling this out of my ass, but isn't there a monument in the Imperial gardens in Tokyo to the fallen WWII soldiers, explicitly including kamikazis, that the Prime Minister goes and pays his respects to every year? I'm not saying they're exactly equivalent, but there are instances where, say, we look away out of convenience.
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 03-10-05 12:19 PM
mike d, I believe you're referring to the Nakasone shrine. And I don't cut the politicians who visit it any slack. But seeing as I'm not a Japanese citizen, they don't pay me much mind.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-11-05 5:34 PM
Re: the Yasukuni shrine, it's not the kamikaze pilots who are controversial, it's the soldiers who carried out atrocities in China and Korea. Read "The Rape of Nanking"--it's pretty appalling. (Also, there's a lot of Japanese historical revisionism and denial about their well-documented war crimes, but that's another story.)
I don't think the US gets upset about Koizumi visiting the shrine each year, but the Chinese and Koreans sure do!
Posted by adb | Link to this comment | 03-12-05 2:20 AM
Oops, Yakasuni, not Nakasone. Nakasone was Japanese prime minister, back in the 80s if I remember correctly (there's a joke in there somewhere about all Asians, or at least their names, looking alike to big noses llike me). And yep, I know from personal experience how (justly) upset Chinese get about this issue. Germany has gone a very long way to deal with and repudiate its past. Japan, hardly at all, and its primary victims in the region haven't forgotten.
This has reminded me of the controversy surrounding Reagan's visit to the cemetery in Bitberg.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 03-12-05 6:16 AM