shouldn't a series at least try to be internally consistent?
No. One of the fun things about L&O, for instance, is the way they recycle actors, and you can see the muderer in one and remember that he was the grieving father, or the uncooperative cop, in another. Last night I was watching an early episode and the Oracle, from the first two Matrix movies, was the grieving widow. Cool! (Though, I realize, not on point.)
I suppose I should be thankful that unf didn't call me a little bitch again, at any rate, though maybe if I make some caustic aside about the length of two weeks these days he will yet.
Love Deadwood and The Wire but I'm tempted to say that Unf has the rank backward here. But I love these shows like children so I'm also content to say that I love them both equally.
Which brings up an interesting point. I'd always pronounced his name in my head with a definate [y] sound, but awhile ago when I pronounced it out loud, I found I said it with an [i]. Is there a definite ruling?
Kudos on using the fine phrase "can those cocksuckers do that?"
Yeah, not a lot of "irony" in that one, Unf. Unfortunately, I read that comment while I was on the phone with someone, and sounded like I was choking as I tried not to laugh.
What was funny was in The Sopranos, when Christopher wanted to be a screenwriter, and when people asked him what kind of movies he wanted to write, he said, "Goodfellas, shit like that."
The link was not broken and ogged is a liar. You're pushing me, Ben.
As for The Wire vs. Deadwood, The Wire has definitely has more interesting good guys, but Deadwood has more interesting villains. And better villains win, every time.
But deciding which show is better is kind of like trying to decide if Stalin or Hitler was worse. Not much point trying to make the distinctions.
My favorite Sopranos moment is when Christopher walks into a meeting, Silvio (Steve Van Zandt) says, "Chrissy, you're late," and C replies, "yeah, the highway's jammed with broken heroes, on some last-chance power drive." Awesome.
SCMT - what's your objection to Deadwood? Cuz its really, really good.
At a guess, I'd say it's likely to be too good for me. The Western as a genre is really well-developed, from standard white hat / black hat (err, Big Valley?), to comic book white hat / black hat (Shane), to comic book anti-hero (Unforgiven), to real moral ambiguity (The Searchers), to cultural ambiguity (Liberty Valance), to McGuffin (Wild Bunch), to buddy-pic (Butch), etc. So I suspect that really good shows are going to either (a) fail miserably, (b) be one of the above - which I like, but which are hard to sustain for more than a couple of movies - or, (c) be really good in ways that I can't appreciate, like any number of classic European films that I can't understand and consequently can't stand. Police procedurals, b/c they're located now and b/c they are variants of either the Western or film noir, are narrowed and likely to be my speed.
All of which is to say, anything smarter than The Simpsons or the first few seasons of Buffy is likely above me. After all, I think I saw every episode of My Two Dads.
Is this the revenge for "the GoonShow" reference? Do you people realise that a good 80% of this goes right over. I mean M*A*S*H and Buffy I know,but the rest?
Kudos on using the fine phrase "can those cocksuckers do that?"
The correct phrase is cork soaker as in "extending that show really soaks my cork". Share it, spread it, let's see how long it takes to become mainstream.
As for The Wire vs. Deadwood, The Wire has definitely has more interesting good guys, but Deadwood has more interesting villains. And better villains win, every time.
Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. Unf, I love you dearly, but you could not be more wrong about this. The brilliance of The Wire is that there are "good" guys and there are "bad" guys, but only nominally, and only distinguished by who has a badge and who doesn't. Any distinction beyond that requires some heavy-duty moral introspection. The cop who "legalizes" drugs in his district. The drug kingpin trying to go legit as a real estate developer. The detective who'll violate any ethical principle in trying to close a case. And so on. It's all one big shade of grey, which is what makes it (and what made Homicide before it) so fucking brilliant.
On point, however: I remember back in grad school a friend of mine got completely freaked out by the series of L&O/Homicide crossover shows -- as she said, it was like there really was some other world we were watching through the screen, where characters could actually move from one narrative to another. Somehow that's more unnerving to me than the same-actor-reborn phenomenon -- though this one's a bit more extreme than most...
"But shouldn't a series at least try to be internally consistent?"
Not in never rehiring an actor for another role; if I had a penny for every time this is done, I'd never have to ask for a donation ever again. One might as well complain that actors are wearing make-up and not showing their true selves, or that in real life, we're not introduced with titles and don't have theme music. I mean, why single this show out, and not complain about pretty much every tv show ever made, or at least every single show of the hundreds you've seen since you were a child, for doing this, since they all commonly do [if they last more than a year]?
The wild west was a place where identities were mutable! Why has no one offered as a defense the proposition that the series is being internally consistent, but Jack McCall isn't, and is coming back to Deadwood with a new name—and sinister new agenda!
sorry you cocksuckers, I happen to have caught the Deadwood train a bit late, but it's turned into the only show on tv I'll make time for right now (other than perhaps Carnivale, but even that's gotten too fucked up for my tastes).
Anyway, the beautiful of the fucking English language in that show, the twists and fucking turns, and the occasional sphincter/prostate rub by a whore make it worth every cocksucking minute.
*removes Calamity Jane hat so that he can speak more clearly*
I might have to look into the Wire though. I find that the tastes portrayed here at unfogged are pretty similar to my own.
Signals that the show's finally broken through: there was a New Yorker cartoon last week featuring a giant sign that read, "DEADWOOD --> 50 XXXXXXXXXXXXXing Miles".
KF - appreciate the love. Right back at ya. Don't let ogged bring you down. He's just a naturally dyspeptic fucking cocksucker.
Gary - is this practice (aside from L&O, as to which see above, and M*A*S*H, which is before my time) really that common? I can't recall it ever happening in any other show. And I have been known to get my idiot box on from time to time.
Pr Goose - The Wire is really good. I suggest getting the first three seasons on DVD first, so you're completely caught up when the next one starts. Given the incredible intricacy of the plots on the Wire, you need to get caught up and stay caught up to enjoy it. But its totally worth it.
"First, let's note that Gary is, indeed, making the "this is old news to an old hand like me" argument again. "
I only do it when it's twue.
"Gary - is this practice (aside from L&O, as to which see above, and M*A*S*H, which is before my time) really that common? I can't recall it ever happening in any other show. And I have been known to get my idiot box on from time to time."
Sure. The IMDB is chock-a-block with examples. Thugs, cops, henchmen, and aliens tend to be particularly re-used. Casting directors love to re-use someone who worked out, and they therefore have reason to think can be relied upon. Obviously, this tends to happen mostly with long-running shows. So, for instance, the Star Trek shows re-used dozens and dozens and dozens of actors in multiple speaking roles, as did (not all in those numbers) Hawaii Five-O, Mission Impossible, Twilight Zone, Dragnet, The Avengers, Hill Street Blues, The Rockford Files, Law & Order, The Equalizer, Barney Miller, and on and on.
Here, for instance, James Cromwell has three parts on Barney Miller, two in "Diff'rent Strokes" , three parts on Star Trek (not counting the movies). Here Joe Morton is in two parts in The Equalizer, and three parts in Law & Order. The great M. Emmett Walsh: two Starsky and Hutchs, two Barettas. All separate characters, of course, not just appearances.
And so on.
Let's not even get into The Simpsons and animated voice acting.
I should also say that while repeat roles tend to mostly be small roles, that's not always true; see, for example, Dennis Franz being a main featured guest on a number of episodes of Hill Street Blues as Sal Benedetto, being killed off, and coming back a while later to be a star of the show as Norman Buntz.
Are you even going to tell us what the second-best show is, or what?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:07 AM
It's The Wire, and Enrique's cousin is MY. Love the Wire, never seen (and won't ever see) Deadwood.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:10 AM
Ben, must I lay out everything for you? Would it kill you to right click once in a while?
SCMT - what's your objection to Deadwood? Cuz its really, really good.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:12 AM
shouldn't a series at least try to be internally consistent?
No. One of the fun things about L&O, for instance, is the way they recycle actors, and you can see the muderer in one and remember that he was the grieving father, or the uncooperative cop, in another. Last night I was watching an early episode and the Oracle, from the first two Matrix movies, was the grieving widow. Cool! (Though, I realize, not on point.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:14 AM
Ben, may I refer you to this?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:15 AM
At the time I made that comment, "via Enrique's long-lost cousin" was plaintext, not a link. Swear to god.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:16 AM
Hey, don't go dissin' Wolfson, it bothers him. Unf's first link was broken. Wolfson, always first, had no way to follow it. I've since fixed it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:17 AM
I suppose I should be thankful that unf didn't call me a little bitch again, at any rate, though maybe if I make some caustic aside about the length of two weeks these days he will yet.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:17 AM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:19 AM
Love Deadwood and The Wire but I'm tempted to say that Unf has the rank backward here. But I love these shows like children so I'm also content to say that I love them both equally.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:19 AM
My apologies.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:20 AM
Which brings up an interesting point. I'd always pronounced his name in my head with a definate [y] sound, but awhile ago when I pronounced it out loud, I found I said it with an [i]. Is there a definite ruling?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:20 AM
Enrique's long lost cousin should've been quoted on top there, to provide context.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:22 AM
Kudos on using the fine phrase "can those cocksuckers do that?"
Yeah, not a lot of "irony" in that one, Unf. Unfortunately, I read that comment while I was on the phone with someone, and sounded like I was choking as I tried not to laugh.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:23 AM
What was funny was in The Sopranos, when Christopher wanted to be a screenwriter, and when people asked him what kind of movies he wanted to write, he said, "Goodfellas, shit like that."
Michael Imperioli, who plays Christopher, was in Goodfellas. As Spider.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:24 AM
The link was not broken and ogged is a liar. You're pushing me, Ben.
As for The Wire vs. Deadwood, The Wire has definitely has more interesting good guys, but Deadwood has more interesting villains. And better villains win, every time.
But deciding which show is better is kind of like trying to decide if Stalin or Hitler was worse. Not much point trying to make the distinctions.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:31 AM
I clean up your mess and you call me a liar?
I will grant, I have no idea how you managed to fuck up the link, given that there's a button for making links.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:34 AM
My favorite Sopranos moment is when Christopher walks into a meeting, Silvio (Steve Van Zandt) says, "Chrissy, you're late," and C replies, "yeah, the highway's jammed with broken heroes, on some last-chance power drive." Awesome.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:38 AM
Its not my fault you can't maintain the site properly, ogged.
L&O? I'd rather watch the wall.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:42 AM
Who is this unf person?
Sorry, I've only been here for a couple of months or so.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:47 AM
SCMT - what's your objection to Deadwood? Cuz its really, really good.
At a guess, I'd say it's likely to be too good for me. The Western as a genre is really well-developed, from standard white hat / black hat (err, Big Valley?), to comic book white hat / black hat (Shane), to comic book anti-hero (Unforgiven), to real moral ambiguity (The Searchers), to cultural ambiguity (Liberty Valance), to McGuffin (Wild Bunch), to buddy-pic (Butch), etc. So I suspect that really good shows are going to either (a) fail miserably, (b) be one of the above - which I like, but which are hard to sustain for more than a couple of movies - or, (c) be really good in ways that I can't appreciate, like any number of classic European films that I can't understand and consequently can't stand. Police procedurals, b/c they're located now and b/c they are variants of either the Western or film noir, are narrowed and likely to be my speed.
All of which is to say, anything smarter than The Simpsons or the first few seasons of Buffy is likely above me. After all, I think I saw every episode of My Two Dads.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:52 AM
SCMT, you should watch Johnny Guitar.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:54 AM
Also: Dead Man
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:17 AM
But shouldn't a series at least try to be internally consistent?
Man, are you going to be pissed off if you ever watch M*A*S*H.
Posted by dave | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:47 AM
Is this the revenge for "the GoonShow" reference? Do you people realise that a good 80% of this goes right over. I mean M*A*S*H and Buffy I know,but the rest?
I need a manual.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:57 AM
What? No love for Arrested Development?!?!
Posted by Scott | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:47 PM
Kudos on using the fine phrase "can those cocksuckers do that?"
The correct phrase is cork soaker as in "extending that show really soaks my cork". Share it, spread it, let's see how long it takes to become mainstream.
Posted by Maynard Handley | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:05 PM
As for The Wire vs. Deadwood, The Wire has definitely has more interesting good guys, but Deadwood has more interesting villains. And better villains win, every time.
Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. Unf, I love you dearly, but you could not be more wrong about this. The brilliance of The Wire is that there are "good" guys and there are "bad" guys, but only nominally, and only distinguished by who has a badge and who doesn't. Any distinction beyond that requires some heavy-duty moral introspection. The cop who "legalizes" drugs in his district. The drug kingpin trying to go legit as a real estate developer. The detective who'll violate any ethical principle in trying to close a case. And so on. It's all one big shade of grey, which is what makes it (and what made Homicide before it) so fucking brilliant.
On point, however: I remember back in grad school a friend of mine got completely freaked out by the series of L&O/Homicide crossover shows -- as she said, it was like there really was some other world we were watching through the screen, where characters could actually move from one narrative to another. Somehow that's more unnerving to me than the same-actor-reborn phenomenon -- though this one's a bit more extreme than most...
Posted by KF | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:21 PM
"But shouldn't a series at least try to be internally consistent?"
Not in never rehiring an actor for another role; if I had a penny for every time this is done, I'd never have to ask for a donation ever again. One might as well complain that actors are wearing make-up and not showing their true selves, or that in real life, we're not introduced with titles and don't have theme music. I mean, why single this show out, and not complain about pretty much every tv show ever made, or at least every single show of the hundreds you've seen since you were a child, for doing this, since they all commonly do [if they last more than a year]?
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:33 PM
The wild west was a place where identities were mutable! Why has no one offered as a defense the proposition that the series is being internally consistent, but Jack McCall isn't, and is coming back to Deadwood with a new name—and sinister new agenda!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:34 PM
First, let's note that Gary is, indeed, making the "this is old news to an old hand like me" argument again. (You did ask for it, Gary.)
And Unf, I love you dearly
Based on what?? You like how he gives you your space? Grr, my heart's abhorrence, and all that!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:56 PM
sorry you cocksuckers, I happen to have caught the Deadwood train a bit late, but it's turned into the only show on tv I'll make time for right now (other than perhaps Carnivale, but even that's gotten too fucked up for my tastes).
Anyway, the beautiful of the fucking English language in that show, the twists and fucking turns, and the occasional sphincter/prostate rub by a whore make it worth every cocksucking minute.
*removes Calamity Jane hat so that he can speak more clearly*
I might have to look into the Wire though. I find that the tastes portrayed here at unfogged are pretty similar to my own.
Christ, that's a sad admission.
Posted by Pr Goose | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:03 PM
Worry not, ogged; "I love you dearly, but" is a direct address form of "bless his heart," defined here, if I've got this linky thing right.
Posted by Kathleen Fitzpatrick | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:10 PM
But how the hell did my full name end up on that last comment? Sure glad I'm not anonymous or anything.
Posted by KF | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:11 PM
Oh, you were calling him an idiot. That's cool.
Do you want me to change the full name to KF?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:13 PM
Signals that the show's finally broken through: there was a New Yorker cartoon last week featuring a giant sign that read, "DEADWOOD --> 50 XXXXXXXXXXXXXing Miles".
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:13 PM
KF - appreciate the love. Right back at ya. Don't let ogged bring you down. He's just a naturally dyspeptic fucking cocksucker.
Gary - is this practice (aside from L&O, as to which see above, and M*A*S*H, which is before my time) really that common? I can't recall it ever happening in any other show. And I have been known to get my idiot box on from time to time.
Pr Goose - The Wire is really good. I suggest getting the first three seasons on DVD first, so you're completely caught up when the next one starts. Given the incredible intricacy of the plots on the Wire, you need to get caught up and stay caught up to enjoy it. But its totally worth it.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:13 PM
KF - I hereby withdraw my love.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:15 PM
Ah, once I'm out, I'm out. Fuggedaboutit.
Posted by KF | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:15 PM
Unf, that's the story of my life.
Posted by KF | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:16 PM
"...the beautiful USE of the English language in that show..."
(Hey, I'm a social scientist. Give me a break. Without grammar and spellcheck...)
Posted by Prof Goose | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:17 PM
KF - that pains me. I hereby reconvey my love.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:25 PM
KF, you might want to think before accepting unf's latest offer of his love. He seems pretty free with it.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:26 PM
Slutty, even.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:27 PM
That's the other story of my life.
Posted by KF | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:27 PM
Well, I know at least two people who won't be getting any of my love.
Posted by unf | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:32 PM
::mwah!!::
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 2:34 PM
Jon Lovitz played three different characters (Fred, Mike Johnson, and Max Lewis) on NewsRadio over the years.
Posted by hilker | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 4:47 PM
"First, let's note that Gary is, indeed, making the "this is old news to an old hand like me" argument again. "
I only do it when it's twue.
"Gary - is this practice (aside from L&O, as to which see above, and M*A*S*H, which is before my time) really that common? I can't recall it ever happening in any other show. And I have been known to get my idiot box on from time to time."
Sure. The IMDB is chock-a-block with examples. Thugs, cops, henchmen, and aliens tend to be particularly re-used. Casting directors love to re-use someone who worked out, and they therefore have reason to think can be relied upon. Obviously, this tends to happen mostly with long-running shows. So, for instance, the Star Trek shows re-used dozens and dozens and dozens of actors in multiple speaking roles, as did (not all in those numbers) Hawaii Five-O, Mission Impossible, Twilight Zone, Dragnet, The Avengers, Hill Street Blues, The Rockford Files, Law & Order, The Equalizer, Barney Miller, and on and on.
Here, for instance, James Cromwell has three parts on Barney Miller, two in "Diff'rent Strokes" , three parts on Star Trek (not counting the movies). Here Joe Morton is in two parts in The Equalizer, and three parts in Law & Order. The great M. Emmett Walsh: two Starsky and Hutchs, two Barettas. All separate characters, of course, not just appearances.
And so on.
Let's not even get into The Simpsons and animated voice acting.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 12:02 AM
I should also say that while repeat roles tend to mostly be small roles, that's not always true; see, for example, Dennis Franz being a main featured guest on a number of episodes of Hill Street Blues as Sal Benedetto, being killed off, and coming back a while later to be a star of the show as Norman Buntz.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 03-19-05 12:09 AM