If Dr. Taryn Rose uses her mad orthopedic skillz to make shoes that don't hurt people's feet I'm all for her. I look forward to her skins stuffed with hay line (can't find the relevant article online).
I didn't even know Taryn Rose, so I"ve already learned something today. But again let me state, that this latter issue of designer shoe knowledge has to do more with your metrosexuality than your homosexuality. The "bring out the gimp" guys from Tarantinoland were also gay, albeit in an unrefined and very unpleasant way. The idea of a gay working class/waffle house subculture in the South is another and less striking but actually common/normal example of this. This is also why Andrew Sullivan can write about "bears" even if he leaves the lions and tigers out of it, oh my.
As for the looking at the male personals.... what profgrrrl said.
Also, I don't think that the first guy was quite dressed so disco, as his attitude/body language screamed DISCO!!!!! in glaring all caps.
I'm pretty sure you explained the Iranian/Persian thing in comments once, but I can't be bothered to find it.
And I don't name the shoes, ogged, I just pick them out and wear them. IMO that's one of the best designs they have. The name is just a bonus.
They were just kind of average, you know? Of course I'm just talking about what they wore to school (or some of them to debate tournaments, but that's not really where you show off your style).
1. Can we all agree that "skillz" should be widely used to mean ne plus ultra skills? Especially the professors. I think admissions committees should be reading your recommendations and saying, "Wow, Professor Weiner claims this kid has Z-level analytic skills. We've got to take him!"
2. Ogged, you prick, I've already wasted thirty minutes indulging the Persian fetish on that site. Why are all the most attractive of the women living outside the US? Don't we have the largest extra-Iranian Persian community?
But if you did that, Tim (btw does anyone actually call you that, or would your name more accurately be SomeCallMe"SomeCallMeTim"?), then how could you distinguish between "skillz" simpliciter and "mad skillz"? I admit that "skillz" is rarely sighted without the qualifier, but I'd like to leave the option open.
OK, so now that the metrosexual thing has come up, I have a question. Are women really actually sexually attracted to metros? Because if they are, I just don't get it.
I mean, I think they make great girlfriends (oops, guyfriends) but waiting for a guy to fix his hair and seeing that he uses more product than I do (only 2, ogged, if that -- I maintain that I am not high maintenance) and knowing that his slick outfit was not influenced by shopping lessons from an ex-girlfriend/sister/mother/best friend who is a girl ... well that doesn't do anything to get me in the mood for an evening. Not that I dig the Brawny Man either, but ...
And while you're posting on the Iranian persian thing, do Iranian/Persian Americans have slightly different names and words for things than exist back in the homeland? The Italo-Americans have created an Americanized Italian culture (I never met a real Italian who said "manicotdth" for example). Irish Americans, as many of you observed yesterday have a mountain of crap they think is Irish that acutal Irish people often find irritating. This issue is a bit of a strange anthropological hobby of mine, so while you're at it... please.
Discoffied, Discoiffed?
And are those really hipster shoes? Hipster may mean something different these days.
Benton, I'm not sufficiently down with the language to answer that question. I really don't know/hang with any Iranians except the occasional visit with family, which isn't really slang central. I do know that Iranian youth in Iran have all sorts of invented names for gadgets and gizmos and things having to do with pop culture, but I don't know specifics.
I think there's an old-school idea of "hipster" which involves lounge lizards and pointy collars and such. But I think that idea has been subverted, in urban areas at least, by a downtown-ish, tall, lean, mop-headed arty ironist (think: Beck).
The reverse question is interesting as well as far as what men like. But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder. Is it the career woman with the $400 boots? Is it the girlyiest of girls? Is there a different typology of female archetypes that we can assess?
But I do want to know the answer to your specific question. Perhaps we can ask Alameda to make a post on it and ask that no men be in the first 30 comments or so.
Irony is key to the hipster shoe, right? Eelskin boots, maybe, or those old Converse "Pumps" with the basketball do-what that you push to inflate something—I'd say that those would be good examples of hipster shoes. I'm afraid Ben may be doing Eurotrash.
But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder.
Is it the female version of metrosexual that we want to ask about? Or what about guy-like girls?
Interesting thing to note. Guys say they like the "natural no makeup" look ... and then they say "like you -- see you don't need them and you look great." Ha! Ha ha ha ha. But I wear cosmetics and always am when the comment is made. I'm just not afraid to go out without them on (do it all the time, prob more often than not) and I don't belong to the Tammy Faye school of makeup.
Of course, ogged likes his girls rugged and bare. But he also reads the male side of the personals. Coincidence? ;)
OTOH since there's a store called "Eurotrash" in my neighborhood now (no foolin') the distinction may not be that meaningful. And I'd say there's a pretty even mix of retro-ironic and non-retro clothes- and shoe-wearing around my neighborhood, which is unfortunately clotted with hipsters like cream.
But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder. Is it the career woman with the $400 boots? Is it the girlyiest of girls? Is there a different typology of female archetypes that we can assess?
But the metrosexual is a deviation from normative heterosexual masculine values—that's why he needs a clever name. The "female metrosexual" just identifies some range of normative heterosexual feminine values. "Shops more than most girls" is still along the same spectrum of values. Unless you're asking about the deviation from normative heterosexual feminine values, which I guess would be butch or tomboy.
Sorry that I had to sound like such a tool to make the point.
There are at least two ways of looking at the female metrosexual thing. One is whether there is a female archetype that fits the urbane, effete, pampered, product using, more refined than real archetype/stereotype that is the metrosexual. The other is to ask whether there is a type of woman who is distanced from traditional gender definitions for women the way a metrosexual man is for men.
I'm about to ask about the unit of analysis, dependent and independent variables.
And Kriston, can something that is Eurotrash ever be hipster?
OTOH since there's a store called "Eurotrash" in my neighborhood now (no foolin') the distinction may not be that meaningful.
Good call, and whatever else you're wearing could change things up, right? You have to make a Punnett square to get down to the bottom of things. I think a thrift-store t-shirt probably dominates the expression of Eurotrash shoes. Any sort of armband (worn around the bicep) would set the hipster context for any outfit.
PG, metros (meterosexuals?) aren't the only ones who take forever to get ready. For instance, the Guido does all the things a metro does, except for accepting that it's a bit feminine.
Thanks for the archival link, ogged. You would approve of my nails. But are you trying to say that you prefer women you don't find as attractive because of what they represent? How does one balance the physical appearance with what's inside? I think both are important (go ahead, call me semi-shallow, see if I care).
Tweedledopey—I'm not at all familiar with the Guido, but from a glance he looks like he belongs in the European normative masculine value system. Maybe it relates to the Iranian/Persian thing, but a metrosexual in some European locales is just a normal dude. A European in the U.S. is likely Eurotrash, which is more or less only ethnically distinct from the metrosexual as far as I can tell.
The idea that people self identify as guidos is another amazing thing. That, and in schools today, nerd loses a lot of its derogatory effect. Its just a type of kid who is different. The fact that the kid who likes to read is "different" and for whom the mainstream has to make allowances is sad. But it seems different often than it was. On the guido front, there is another term, I've never seen written but have said plenty of times. Gavon? Cavon? I want to see when that become mainstream selfidentifcation.
We should offer a prize to the person who makes a link between this phenomenon such as it and the impact of gay marriage on societal standards.
are you trying to say that you prefer women you don't find as attractive because of what they represent?
No. It seems to happen all at once. I mean, when you see a goth guy, you make all sorts of judgments about whether he's for you and about what he looks like all at once, right?
Guidos are the guys. Having gone to school in NJ, we'd have guido nights. Not that we invited guidos, or the girls, but we pretended we were guidos. Lots of gel, long pants, getting swole, etc.
That, and in schools today, nerd loses a lot of its derogatory effect.
Ever on the cutting edge--in my high school (84-88) my whole social stratum identified as nerds--there was a cookout called "Nerdfest" that drew about 100 kids. This in an integrated city school (but one that drew pretty heavily on an upper-middle class academic-style neighborhood, where most of the nerd kids came from).
Now I'm going to see if I can get onto the computer that works to see pg's picture.
Tripp, normally I'd arm wrestle you for the girl, but you're the shot-putter, if I recall. Race ya!
Nah. I'm happily married 21 years so I'm just reading the menu. The sight of a beautiful woman is one of the biggest pleasures in life. And almost all women are beautiful. I was going to say all, but, ahem, Anne Coulter.
Ooh ... had to reply to this. I've been told it is hot in a really nasty way. This from a guy I worked with while supervising a chunkyslutty chick who was singlehandedly supporting the local BK. I'll not comment on sexy or not. I found her repulsive. But then I'm generally not into women, so who am I to comment?
Re. metrosexuals vs. the disco dude look: it's not so much the clothes as it is the bluff, hearty attitude of being smooooth with the laydeeez. Liking clothes is fine. I'm sure ogged's shoes--which you really do have to send me a picture of, and I won't take no for an answer--are fantastic, actually, and as long as you're not sidling up to women and telling them that you were destined to meet, or flashing them the big dramatic wink and associated chin-forward head tilt that conveys "hey baby, aren't you lucky I noticed ya," it's probably totally fine.
There's lots of latitude when it comes to CSS (no pun intended). Chunky, for me, does not necessarily mean remarkably overweight. It can be just a touch above societal norms (like Natalie).
I think we're talking about the intersection of two distinct groups here. Slutty-sexy is one group, and chunky (or thick) is the other. Not a subset I'm much interested in, but I do find attractive each of the sets.
I dunno, maybe five years ago? The cover is circa 1990-92 (it's off a live tour EP they released to promote "Louder than Love"). They started to suck long before they broke up, so the exact date for said break-up is fuzzy for me.
Yeah, alright. That's obscure. Sorry, former College Radio DJ.
So, while we're asking questions, is someone who parts his hair behind, dares to eat a peach, wears white flannel trousers (the bottoms of which are rolled), and walks upon the beach a metrosexual? (Probably not a guido)
Only if he frequents rooms where women talk about Michelangelo. Though that modest necktie, accented by a simple pin, is the kind of timeless elegance that the macaronic metrosexual spurns in favor of the day's fashions.
Of course the necktie is not just modest but also "rich"—our man J. Alfred knows that quality material, not flashy cut or design, are the marks of true class.
There's a post at Household Opera about close reading on blogs. I think I'm going to try to come up with a really thorough analysis of "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" with an eye to answering definitively the question of whether or not he's a metrosexual.
The thing is, Prufrock has all that self-loathing, which doesn't smell metrosexual to me. Metrosexuals, in my experience, tend to be a self-satisfied bunch.
You were right, Ben, I did answer the Iranian/Persian question. There's another little bit: people also like to say that "persian" has to do with ethnicity, while "iranian" is about nationality--so it's their way of distinguishing themselves from, say, the dirty Iranian Turks or Kurds. Whatever. If someone insists on "Persian," good bet s/he's an ass.
Second, it's the preferred term of people sympathetic to the late, deposed Shah (and his son), who seem to think it more fully conjures the majesty of Persia's ancient kings.
Sadly, I think it's the last bit of the above that partly drives my fetish. And yes, most of the Persian women I've met seem to fall into the first part of that sentence; I just ignore whatever implications there are to that.
Ben: When I was younger, I used to recite that poem outloud to my self. For me the conflict lies between passive observation and the desire for active involvement. Self-loathing for not having the courage to partake. Dont sound too metro to me.
Ogged, I lived with a persian-not-iranian guy once (no, not in that way) and I got the sense that he (a) didn't like the Islamic state and (b) didn't want people looking at him as a terrorist. Any plausibility to that gloss on motivation?
NEVER accuse a Flams of speaking Dutch. Gets ugly quickly.
I had a Belgian roommate who warned me of the same thing. But I was asking an honest question, since the ad doesn't indicate whether she was born in Antwerp or not - just that that is her current location.
I was once driving through Antwerp late at night and had to buy Petrol. The attendant said something to me in Flams. I said "I'm sorry I don't speak Dutch".... Well I was 20 yrs younger and quicker. These days I'd be meat.
Nah. I'm happily married 21 years so I'm just bawk bawk-bawk bawk...
Bwahahahahahaha!
I think you are right. Over lunch I was informed by Mrs. Davenport that in a few weeks we will have been married 23 years, not the 21 I said. I think part of the reason for the longevity of our marriage is an arrangement we have - I don't fool around and then she doesn't kill me.
But I'll have you know last year I finished 4th in the 100 yard dash in my age group in MN.
Washerdryer: Perhaps there ought to be. In this town there are WAY too many men, who ought to be old enough to know better, who seem not to have realised that Beckham is just plain younger than they are.
Ogged, I lived with a persian-not-iranian guy once (no, not in that way) and I got the sense that he (a) didn't like the Islamic state and (b) didn't want people looking at him as a terrorist. Any plausibility to that gloss on motivation?
That link in 112 goes to:
they hope you won't figure out the association with Iran, that crazy terrorist country in the Middle-East
So, yes to b, but about a, everyone hates the mullahs, and the people who choose to register that with "I'm Persian" are likely royalist bastards.
Sadly, I think it's the last bit of the above that partly drives my fetish. And yes, most of the Persian women I've met seem to fall into the first part of that sentence; I just ignore whatever implications there are to that.
Tim, I'm pretty humorless on this topic. Those people suck. Imagine if the Republicans were much worse than they are, imprisoning and torturing Americans in much higher numbers, enriching themselves in even more unfair and ostentatious ways, etc. Now, you're lusting after the Iranians who pine for those good old days.
Well, not quite. Imagine Bush crowns himself king, does all this nasty stuff, then is eventually overthrown. Then imagine all of Jenna Bush's friends, exiled somewhere, pining for the good old days. That's more what it's like. (Now, it's true that the people who overthrew the king turned out to suck too, but that doesn't let anyone off the hook for what went before.)
I kind of got that sense, which is one of the reasons I asked about Persians and their families lo' those many weeks ago. But I wonder if all of them are pining for the Shah? I would think the relevant analog is Cuban Americans and Batista. Or even Southerners and the ante-bellum time period. Isn't a fair bit of it (all three) a longing for glory without accounting for the terribleness that drove it?
Ogged, is this at all connected with the question of whether the language should be called 'Persian' or 'Farsi'? I've frequently seen the claim that 'Farsi' is wrong in English--it's like calling German 'Deutsch'--but is this connected with Persian/Iranian?
I like the specificity of that personals site. Fuck pina coladas and getting caught in the rain. What do you think about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?
is this at all connected with the question of whether the language should be called 'Persian' or 'Farsi'?
I'm not really familiar with that one. I can see the objection, I guess, but I've heard both used. (No doubt some group of Iranians attaches some cultural importance to the use of one or the other though.)
Then imagine all of Jenna Bush's friends, exiled somewhere, pining for the good old days.
Ogged. Now I know that there is a WORLD of difference between the regimes in question. However following analogy occurs. Otto Habsburg is a very well respected EMP. Thus fulfilling at least part of his legacy in a positive sense.
Michael of Bulgaria is more problematic. But he got himself elected etc.
The sins of the fathers are not always the sins of the children. Especially when those children have been exposed to some good ol western type democracy for a generation or so.
Wolfson, if you're around, how do i put the accent in expose? Without the accent that's hardly even a sensible question, but I think you'll be able to parse it.
Thanks, I needed it to make fun of the Economist for writing a story about how Bush Economic Policy isn't being set by people who have a lot of training in economics. To which my reaction was "Really? What a shocking turn of events."
I can fly to a totally different city, have dinner, meetings and still resume the Iranian personals thread commenting? Wow. This is a great cyber thingy.
Re the Persians. To the extent that I've met people like those of whom Ogged is speaking, they have some cash, some education and connections that are the result of the sins of either themselves or their fathers. It makes it a more complicated issue. They aren't just exiles pining for the good old days if they still live off the profits of those days. I don't know if Ogged should launch a truth and reconcilation commission, but I can see why this isn't a closed book to him.
Which doesn't make SCTM wrong (although the civil war people creep me out).
First guy: "Hallo, American foxes. I am a wild and craaazy guy!"
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 1:49 AM
I wanna see the Iranian Disco Boy shoes. Desperately. C'mon. C'mon. Please?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 6:12 AM
Loving it. That first guy, something about him looked not quite real.
But in the gay spirit of unfogged I must say that you searching the male side of the Iranian personals ... well ... just sayin'
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 6:48 AM
PG:
I think "Taryn Rose" was probably enough to get us there.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 6:51 AM
Pg, we have a long tradition of mining Iranian personals for funny (unfortunately those ads aren't up anymore).
Tim, that's Dr. Taryn Rose to you.
And b, you'll have to trust me that pictures don't do them justice. Use your imagination.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:13 AM
If Dr. Taryn Rose uses her mad orthopedic skillz to make shoes that don't hurt people's feet I'm all for her. I look forward to her skins stuffed with hay line (can't find the relevant article online).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:19 AM
I didn't even know Taryn Rose, so I"ve already learned something today. But again let me state, that this latter issue of designer shoe knowledge has to do more with your metrosexuality than your homosexuality. The "bring out the gimp" guys from Tarantinoland were also gay, albeit in an unrefined and very unpleasant way. The idea of a gay working class/waffle house subculture in the South is another and less striking but actually common/normal example of this. This is also why Andrew Sullivan can write about "bears" even if he leaves the lions and tigers out of it, oh my.
As for the looking at the male personals.... what profgrrrl said.
Also, I don't think that the first guy was quite dressed so disco, as his attitude/body language screamed DISCO!!!!! in glaring all caps.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:40 AM
Ha! Being polite at work to those you should mock.
Yup.
You've sold out, Ogged! You've sold out to THE MAN.
Welcome to the club. :(
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:46 AM
"Always smiling." Nice. That's obviously an Iranian sex robot sent from the future to satisfy all da ladiez.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:12 AM
Weiner, I remember that article. It looks like the NYer hasn't put it online yet, if it ever will.
By coincidence I am wearing hipster shoes today (though I assure everyone I didn't pay even close to that listed price).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:15 AM
None of the Iranian-American guys (who preferred to be called Persian, IIRC) at my high school dressed all discofied.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:17 AM
Not discofied? What, then?
The "medium existentialist," Ben?
I should do a post on the Iranian/Persian thing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:21 AM
I only knew one, and he wore boots and khakis and Tommy Hilfiger polos just like everyone else. But this was in Texas, so.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:21 AM
I should do a post on the Iranian/Persian thing.
Yes, please.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:22 AM
I'm pretty sure you explained the Iranian/Persian thing in comments once, but I can't be bothered to find it.
And I don't name the shoes, ogged, I just pick them out and wear them. IMO that's one of the best designs they have. The name is just a bonus.
They were just kind of average, you know? Of course I'm just talking about what they wore to school (or some of them to debate tournaments, but that's not really where you show off your style).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:27 AM
1. Can we all agree that "skillz" should be widely used to mean ne plus ultra skills? Especially the professors. I think admissions committees should be reading your recommendations and saying, "Wow, Professor Weiner claims this kid has Z-level analytic skills. We've got to take him!"
2. Ogged, you prick, I've already wasted thirty minutes indulging the Persian fetish on that site. Why are all the most attractive of the women living outside the US? Don't we have the largest extra-Iranian Persian community?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:28 AM
For the most part, Iranians in the U.S. suck. This is not unrelated to the Iranian/Persian thing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:30 AM
But if you did that, Tim (btw does anyone actually call you that, or would your name more accurately be SomeCallMe"SomeCallMeTim"?), then how could you distinguish between "skillz" simpliciter and "mad skillz"? I admit that "skillz" is rarely sighted without the qualifier, but I'd like to leave the option open.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:31 AM
OK, so now that the metrosexual thing has come up, I have a question. Are women really actually sexually attracted to metros? Because if they are, I just don't get it.
I mean, I think they make great girlfriends (oops, guyfriends) but waiting for a guy to fix his hair and seeing that he uses more product than I do (only 2, ogged, if that -- I maintain that I am not high maintenance) and knowing that his slick outfit was not influenced by shopping lessons from an ex-girlfriend/sister/mother/best friend who is a girl ... well that doesn't do anything to get me in the mood for an evening. Not that I dig the Brawny Man either, but ...
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:34 AM
And while you're posting on the Iranian persian thing, do Iranian/Persian Americans have slightly different names and words for things than exist back in the homeland? The Italo-Americans have created an Americanized Italian culture (I never met a real Italian who said "manicotdth" for example). Irish Americans, as many of you observed yesterday have a mountain of crap they think is Irish that acutal Irish people often find irritating. This issue is a bit of a strange anthropological hobby of mine, so while you're at it... please.
Discoffied, Discoiffed?
And are those really hipster shoes? Hipster may mean something different these days.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:38 AM
Not that I dig the Brawny Man either
Ah, but which Brawny Man, pg?
Fontana has examined this issue at length. Here and here.
And at the Mineshaft.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:39 AM
are those really hipster shoes?
I would say yes, but on all things hip, I defer to Kriston.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:41 AM
And are those really hipster shoes? Hipster may mean something different these days.
I am not a hipster, so I couldn't tell you based on introspection or anything, but I have been so told.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:43 AM
Benton, I'm not sufficiently down with the language to answer that question. I really don't know/hang with any Iranians except the occasional visit with family, which isn't really slang central. I do know that Iranian youth in Iran have all sorts of invented names for gadgets and gizmos and things having to do with pop culture, but I don't know specifics.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:45 AM
I think there's an old-school idea of "hipster" which involves lounge lizards and pointy collars and such. But I think that idea has been subverted, in urban areas at least, by a downtown-ish, tall, lean, mop-headed arty ironist (think: Beck).
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:47 AM
Profgrrrl -
The reverse question is interesting as well as far as what men like. But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder. Is it the career woman with the $400 boots? Is it the girlyiest of girls? Is there a different typology of female archetypes that we can assess?
But I do want to know the answer to your specific question. Perhaps we can ask Alameda to make a post on it and ask that no men be in the first 30 comments or so.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:50 AM
Irony is key to the hipster shoe, right? Eelskin boots, maybe, or those old Converse "Pumps" with the basketball do-what that you push to inflate something—I'd say that those would be good examples of hipster shoes. I'm afraid Ben may be doing Eurotrash.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:54 AM
What is the term for a "female metrosexual"? Ladette?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:56 AM
But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder.
Is it the female version of metrosexual that we want to ask about? Or what about guy-like girls?
Interesting thing to note. Guys say they like the "natural no makeup" look ... and then they say "like you -- see you don't need them and you look great." Ha! Ha ha ha ha. But I wear cosmetics and always am when the comment is made. I'm just not afraid to go out without them on (do it all the time, prob more often than not) and I don't belong to the Tammy Faye school of makeup.
Of course, ogged likes his girls rugged and bare. But he also reads the male side of the personals. Coincidence? ;)
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:57 AM
I had missed the Brawny thing altogether. Jesus.
This is a great great weblog.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:57 AM
Horrors!
OTOH since there's a store called "Eurotrash" in my neighborhood now (no foolin') the distinction may not be that meaningful. And I'd say there's a pretty even mix of retro-ironic and non-retro clothes- and shoe-wearing around my neighborhood, which is unfortunately clotted with hipsters like cream.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:58 AM
Ogged, I definitely don't dig the old Brawny Man. And the new one is ... forced. No. Doesn't work. Not my type.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 8:59 AM
But honing in on the female version of metrosexual might be harder. Is it the career woman with the $400 boots? Is it the girlyiest of girls? Is there a different typology of female archetypes that we can assess?
But the metrosexual is a deviation from normative heterosexual masculine values—that's why he needs a clever name. The "female metrosexual" just identifies some range of normative heterosexual feminine values. "Shops more than most girls" is still along the same spectrum of values. Unless you're asking about the deviation from normative heterosexual feminine values, which I guess would be butch or tomboy.
Sorry that I had to sound like such a tool to make the point.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:03 AM
The link in 28 makes the same point. Follow the links, people!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:05 AM
You know we're down with toolery here. (Psst. Try to remember, there are a bunch of philosophy professors here.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:05 AM
Two, innit? Is two a bunch? Someone call Weatherson, we can see if the results generalize to heaps.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:08 AM
There are at least two ways of looking at the female metrosexual thing. One is whether there is a female archetype that fits the urbane, effete, pampered, product using, more refined than real archetype/stereotype that is the metrosexual. The other is to ask whether there is a type of woman who is distanced from traditional gender definitions for women the way a metrosexual man is for men.
I'm about to ask about the unit of analysis, dependent and independent variables.
And Kriston, can something that is Eurotrash ever be hipster?
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:11 AM
Pg, you are really hitting the archival topics. Skillfully applied makeup addressed here.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:11 AM
Note that aspiring philosophy grad students can outdo the professors in toolery.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:11 AM
OTOH since there's a store called "Eurotrash" in my neighborhood now (no foolin') the distinction may not be that meaningful.
Good call, and whatever else you're wearing could change things up, right? You have to make a Punnett square to get down to the bottom of things. I think a thrift-store t-shirt probably dominates the expression of Eurotrash shoes. Any sort of armband (worn around the bicep) would set the hipster context for any outfit.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:11 AM
To think that only six short months ago a post like that to which ogged links in 38 garnered only 12 comments!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:13 AM
PG, metros (meterosexuals?) aren't the only ones who take forever to get ready. For instance, the Guido does all the things a metro does, except for accepting that it's a bit feminine.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:15 AM
Guido's are here.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:17 AM
Thanks for the archival link, ogged. You would approve of my nails. But are you trying to say that you prefer women you don't find as attractive because of what they represent? How does one balance the physical appearance with what's inside? I think both are important (go ahead, call me semi-shallow, see if I care).
BTW, posted you a present.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:22 AM
Tweedledopey—I'm not at all familiar with the Guido, but from a glance he looks like he belongs in the European normative masculine value system. Maybe it relates to the Iranian/Persian thing, but a metrosexual in some European locales is just a normal dude. A European in the U.S. is likely Eurotrash, which is more or less only ethnically distinct from the metrosexual as far as I can tell.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:25 AM
Woohoo!! Hot!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:25 AM
Goddamn. Pg's pictures still aren't showing up on my browser.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:26 AM
Oh, wait, are the Guidos the hot girls or the guys on the sidebar? Those girls are just hott.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:27 AM
profgrrrl,
Guys say they like the "natural no makeup" look
When guys say that what they mean is "beautiful without makeup."
If they then say "like you" that is a big compliment, even if you do use some makeup.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:27 AM
The idea that people self identify as guidos is another amazing thing. That, and in schools today, nerd loses a lot of its derogatory effect. Its just a type of kid who is different. The fact that the kid who likes to read is "different" and for whom the mainstream has to make allowances is sad. But it seems different often than it was. On the guido front, there is another term, I've never seen written but have said plenty of times. Gavon? Cavon? I want to see when that become mainstream selfidentifcation.
We should offer a prize to the person who makes a link between this phenomenon such as it and the impact of gay marriage on societal standards.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:29 AM
are you trying to say that you prefer women you don't find as attractive because of what they represent?
No. It seems to happen all at once. I mean, when you see a goth guy, you make all sorts of judgments about whether he's for you and about what he looks like all at once, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:29 AM
Guidos are the guys. Having gone to school in NJ, we'd have guido nights. Not that we invited guidos, or the girls, but we pretended we were guidos. Lots of gel, long pants, getting swole, etc.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:30 AM
See: Growing Up Gotti for further elaboration on guidism.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:32 AM
Joe,
Goddamn. Pg's pictures still aren't showing up on my browser.
Get a different browser, man! I mean it.
Wow! She's killing me.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:33 AM
I'll check it out on my mac at home tonight.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:33 AM
The girls are guidettes. Which is different from ladette for sure.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:34 AM
Tripp, normally I'd arm wrestle you for the girl, but you're the shot-putter, if I recall. Race ya!
I had no idea that this was the only acceptable pose for guys in pictures now.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:34 AM
That, and in schools today, nerd loses a lot of its derogatory effect.
Ever on the cutting edge--in my high school (84-88) my whole social stratum identified as nerds--there was a cookout called "Nerdfest" that drew about 100 kids. This in an integrated city school (but one that drew pretty heavily on an upper-middle class academic-style neighborhood, where most of the nerd kids came from).
Now I'm going to see if I can get onto the computer that works to see pg's picture.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:35 AM
I know ogged's answer on this, but has anyone else here been known to fancy the ChunkySluttySexy type from time to time?
This is a gender-neutral term.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:36 AM
No. never.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:37 AM
Damn, I've never seen my blog get so many hits so fast.
And with that ... I'm off to work. Meetings. Ugh. With men who are neither metrosexuals nor guidos. Mostly trolls and pigs.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:40 AM
ogged,
Tripp, normally I'd arm wrestle you for the girl, but you're the shot-putter, if I recall. Race ya!
Nah. I'm happily married 21 years so I'm just reading the menu. The sight of a beautiful woman is one of the biggest pleasures in life. And almost all women are beautiful. I was going to say all, but, ahem, Anne Coulter.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:41 AM
ChunkySluttySexy
Ooh ... had to reply to this. I've been told it is hot in a really nasty way. This from a guy I worked with while supervising a chunkyslutty chick who was singlehandedly supporting the local BK. I'll not comment on sexy or not. I found her repulsive. But then I'm generally not into women, so who am I to comment?
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:42 AM
ChunkySluttySexy
Not familiar with this term. Explanation or (preferably) representative picture, please.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:43 AM
Are we talking chunky like "morbidly obese," or chunkly like "ample?"
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:43 AM
Nah. I'm happily married 21 years so I'm just bawk bawk-bawk bawk...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:47 AM
Re. metrosexuals vs. the disco dude look: it's not so much the clothes as it is the bluff, hearty attitude of being smooooth with the laydeeez. Liking clothes is fine. I'm sure ogged's shoes--which you really do have to send me a picture of, and I won't take no for an answer--are fantastic, actually, and as long as you're not sidling up to women and telling them that you were destined to meet, or flashing them the big dramatic wink and associated chin-forward head tilt that conveys "hey baby, aren't you lucky I noticed ya," it's probably totally fine.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:49 AM
There's lots of latitude when it comes to CSS (no pun intended). Chunky, for me, does not necessarily mean remarkably overweight. It can be just a touch above societal norms (like Natalie).
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:50 AM
I'm trying to think of other celebs I can use as an example.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:51 AM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand.
Or so I have read.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:52 AM
And for men, Bill Clinton during the early part of his presidency is a good example.
For that matter, Monica Lewinsky could be seen as CSS.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:54 AM
I think we're talking about the intersection of two distinct groups here. Slutty-sexy is one group, and chunky (or thick) is the other. Not a subset I'm much interested in, but I do find attractive each of the sets.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:54 AM
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
The best part of this song is that all three of them are playing bass.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 9:57 AM
A wise man also once sang:
"Fat-bottomed girls, you make the rocking world go round."
However, I doubt if he spoke from personal preference.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:01 AM
Joe--have you heard the Soundgarden cover of "Big Bottom?" It just slays me.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:02 AM
Profgrrrl.
Sparkly. You look great. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:02 AM
I haven't. Didn't they break up a long time ago?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:03 AM
I dunno, maybe five years ago? The cover is circa 1990-92 (it's off a live tour EP they released to promote "Louder than Love"). They started to suck long before they broke up, so the exact date for said break-up is fuzzy for me.
Yeah, alright. That's obscure. Sorry, former College Radio DJ.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:08 AM
So, while we're asking questions, is someone who parts his hair behind, dares to eat a peach, wears white flannel trousers (the bottoms of which are rolled), and walks upon the beach a metrosexual? (Probably not a guido)
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:09 AM
Christina Ricci has been known to have CSS appeal, but lately she's shed the pounds in a rather frightening way (both of those are sort of NSFW).
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:17 AM
Only if he frequents rooms where women talk about Michelangelo. Though that modest necktie, accented by a simple pin, is the kind of timeless elegance that the macaronic metrosexual spurns in favor of the day's fashions.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:20 AM
Joe, that first picture doesn't seem "chunky" at all to me, more like "actual person".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:21 AM
Irony at it's best. :)
Posted by Lissette | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:22 AM
"Asserted by a simple pin" - maybe metrosexuals accent, while the manly assert?
And what's he going to do with all those hair care products once he sees his head, grown slightly bald, brought in upon a platter?
I suppose that's no great matter.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:25 AM
Joe, that first picture doesn't seem "chunky" at all to me, more like "actual person".
Yeah, it's hard to find Hollywood examples. She was chunky by Hollywood standards, but not by anyone else's, I suppose.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:27 AM
Of course the necktie is not just modest but also "rich"—our man J. Alfred knows that quality material, not flashy cut or design, are the marks of true class.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:27 AM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:28 AM
The have measured out their lives in coffee spoons:
Elegant metrosexuals at Segafredos?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:28 AM
My baby fits me like a flesh tuxedo.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:30 AM
I ought to revise the spelling there: In a minute there is time for a hundred visions and revisions.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:32 AM
I want to sink her with my pink torpedo.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:36 AM
This juxtaposition is gorgeous.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:36 AM
God, this thread has gone to hell.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:37 AM
Talk about bumcakes, my girl's got 'em! Dammit, I can't stop laughing.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:40 AM
Oh, yeah, should have been a pair of ragged claws, whatever.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:40 AM
Of course you can't really tell, but I would be tempted to guess that this woman is high maintanence.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:42 AM
This juxtaposition is gorgeous.
What do you mean by that?
Didn't the young but older-seeming J. Alfred also talk about the butt-ends of his days and ways?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:45 AM
Michael: no shit, you'd always have to be picking up feathers. Heaven help you if you're allergic.
I like the way she says she has a preference in dating Iranians or non-Iranians, but doesn't say what that preference is.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:47 AM
I met her Sunday, that was yesterday
The girl I knew from 1990
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:49 AM
I also like the move from English to Flemish (or is that Dutch?)
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:50 AM
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet
I think that's pretty damning.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:52 AM
I think that's pretty damning.
Well, the thing begins in the Inferno, so.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:55 AM
I can be little picky, but I am open to many different things.
I think you're scamming us. This guy is you, and you're trying to drive traffic to your own ad while mocking it to preserve anonymity.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:55 AM
NEVER accuse a Flams of speaking Dutch. Gets ugly quickly.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:56 AM
There's a post at Household Opera about close reading on blogs. I think I'm going to try to come up with a really thorough analysis of "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" with an eye to answering definitively the question of whether or not he's a metrosexual.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 10:57 AM
This is also very good: In your eyes, what does it mean to be "traditional?": be yourself
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:00 AM
The thing is, Prufrock has all that self-loathing, which doesn't smell metrosexual to me. Metrosexuals, in my experience, tend to be a self-satisfied bunch.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:00 AM
Poor man, Alfred J. he is to you nothing more than a patient etherised upon the table. Why must you analyse his sexuality? He has done nothing to you.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:02 AM
Well, he's one of the few who can hoist himself out of self-regard and into self-awareness. That's what creates the conflict that drives the poem!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:03 AM
I dunno, Joe. I think your comment (specifically, "self-satisfied bunch") speaks to a certain self-loathing.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:03 AM
I think your comment (specifically, "self-satisfied bunch") speaks to a certain self-loathing.
What, are you spying on me?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:04 AM
You were right, Ben, I did answer the Iranian/Persian question. There's another little bit: people also like to say that "persian" has to do with ethnicity, while "iranian" is about nationality--so it's their way of distinguishing themselves from, say, the dirty Iranian Turks or Kurds. Whatever. If someone insists on "Persian," good bet s/he's an ass.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:04 AM
Second, it's the preferred term of people sympathetic to the late, deposed Shah (and his son), who seem to think it more fully conjures the majesty of Persia's ancient kings.
Sadly, I think it's the last bit of the above that partly drives my fetish. And yes, most of the Persian women I've met seem to fall into the first part of that sentence; I just ignore whatever implications there are to that.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:07 AM
Ben: When I was younger, I used to recite that poem outloud to my self. For me the conflict lies between passive observation and the desire for active involvement. Self-loathing for not having the courage to partake. Dont sound too metro to me.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:07 AM
Austro, this was not to have been a serious undertaking.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:09 AM
Ogged, I lived with a persian-not-iranian guy once (no, not in that way) and I got the sense that he (a) didn't like the Islamic state and (b) didn't want people looking at him as a terrorist. Any plausibility to that gloss on motivation?
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:10 AM
Awww...
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:10 AM
NEVER accuse a Flams of speaking Dutch. Gets ugly quickly.
I had a Belgian roommate who warned me of the same thing. But I was asking an honest question, since the ad doesn't indicate whether she was born in Antwerp or not - just that that is her current location.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:12 AM
I was once driving through Antwerp late at night and had to buy Petrol. The attendant said something to me in Flams. I said "I'm sorry I don't speak Dutch".... Well I was 20 yrs younger and quicker. These days I'd be meat.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:15 AM
Young Prufrock or later? Is their an age limit on metrosexuality in theory? In practice, their almost certainly is.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:15 AM
ogged,
Nah. I'm happily married 21 years so I'm just bawk bawk-bawk bawk...
Bwahahahahahaha!
I think you are right. Over lunch I was informed by Mrs. Davenport that in a few weeks we will have been married 23 years, not the 21 I said. I think part of the reason for the longevity of our marriage is an arrangement we have - I don't fool around and then she doesn't kill me.
But I'll have you know last year I finished 4th in the 100 yard dash in my age group in MN.
I'm not saying how many competed.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:16 AM
Er, Ben?
Its not as if it's important, but umm, did you think I was serious?
Sorry, nevertheless.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:17 AM
Washerdryer: Perhaps there ought to be. In this town there are WAY too many men, who ought to be old enough to know better, who seem not to have realised that Beckham is just plain younger than they are.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:21 AM
Ogged, I lived with a persian-not-iranian guy once (no, not in that way) and I got the sense that he (a) didn't like the Islamic state and (b) didn't want people looking at him as a terrorist. Any plausibility to that gloss on motivation?
That link in 112 goes to:
So, yes to b, but about a, everyone hates the mullahs, and the people who choose to register that with "I'm Persian" are likely royalist bastards.
Sadly, I think it's the last bit of the above that partly drives my fetish. And yes, most of the Persian women I've met seem to fall into the first part of that sentence; I just ignore whatever implications there are to that.
Tim, I'm pretty humorless on this topic. Those people suck. Imagine if the Republicans were much worse than they are, imprisoning and torturing Americans in much higher numbers, enriching themselves in even more unfair and ostentatious ways, etc. Now, you're lusting after the Iranians who pine for those good old days.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:23 AM
ogged,
you're lusting after the Iranians who pine for those good old days.
Oh. Iranian Anne Coulters. Ugh.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:36 AM
I'm going with the theory that parting the hair behind = not metrosexual. No metrosexual would be caught dead with a comb-over.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:40 AM
Oh. Iranian Anne Coulters.
Well, not quite. Imagine Bush crowns himself king, does all this nasty stuff, then is eventually overthrown. Then imagine all of Jenna Bush's friends, exiled somewhere, pining for the good old days. That's more what it's like. (Now, it's true that the people who overthrew the king turned out to suck too, but that doesn't let anyone off the hook for what went before.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:41 AM
Those people suck.
I kind of got that sense, which is one of the reasons I asked about Persians and their families lo' those many weeks ago. But I wonder if all of them are pining for the Shah? I would think the relevant analog is Cuban Americans and Batista. Or even Southerners and the ante-bellum time period. Isn't a fair bit of it (all three) a longing for glory without accounting for the terribleness that drove it?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:49 AM
Ogged, is this at all connected with the question of whether the language should be called 'Persian' or 'Farsi'? I've frequently seen the claim that 'Farsi' is wrong in English--it's like calling German 'Deutsch'--but is this connected with Persian/Iranian?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:53 AM
I like the specificity of that personals site. Fuck pina coladas and getting caught in the rain. What do you think about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?
Posted by joe o | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 11:57 AM
is this at all connected with the question of whether the language should be called 'Persian' or 'Farsi'?
I'm not really familiar with that one. I can see the objection, I guess, but I've heard both used. (No doubt some group of Iranians attaches some cultural importance to the use of one or the other though.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:00 PM
Then imagine all of Jenna Bush's friends, exiled somewhere, pining for the good old days.
Ogged. Now I know that there is a WORLD of difference between the regimes in question. However following analogy occurs. Otto Habsburg is a very well respected EMP. Thus fulfilling at least part of his legacy in a positive sense.
Michael of Bulgaria is more problematic. But he got himself elected etc.
The sins of the fathers are not always the sins of the children. Especially when those children have been exposed to some good ol western type democracy for a generation or so.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:06 PM
Wolfson, if you're around, how do i put the accent in expose? Without the accent that's hardly even a sensible question, but I think you'll be able to parse it.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:34 PM
exposé? Type "é" in the text field.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:35 PM
Thanks, I needed it to make fun of the Economist for writing a story about how Bush Economic Policy isn't being set by people who have a lot of training in economics. To which my reaction was "Really? What a shocking turn of events."
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 12:43 PM
Finally saw pg's panties.
Totally worth the wait.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 4:56 PM
I can fly to a totally different city, have dinner, meetings and still resume the Iranian personals thread commenting? Wow. This is a great cyber thingy.
Re the Persians. To the extent that I've met people like those of whom Ogged is speaking, they have some cash, some education and connections that are the result of the sins of either themselves or their fathers. It makes it a more complicated issue. They aren't just exiles pining for the good old days if they still live off the profits of those days. I don't know if Ogged should launch a truth and reconcilation commission, but I can see why this isn't a closed book to him.
Which doesn't make SCTM wrong (although the civil war people creep me out).
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 03-18-05 7:43 PM