I agree that the rituals are important, and that there is no single set of "correct" rituals.
I remember when in England being struck by how often they said "sorry" when they were clearly not apologizing. it was more like a "huh?" to signal that they had not heard something, and it certaily sounds better than "duh, what?"
All other things being equal with respect to pointless rituals, short & simple always beats long and complicated. It's been scientifically proved. I've even got a link here somewhere.
When I was saying I was approachable, I think it's because I may be the only New Yorker who smiles regularly, while walking around. I think it's much more typical to look distinctly grumpy.
I have an interest in the workings of cold politeness, of how you can observe form and maintain distance at the same time. Would like to have more command of that.
I'm pretty sure Sistani would say, "Impregnate the infidel whores and bring their children to me to be raised as Muslim warriors." I was merely making a joke, because if, in fact, I'm coldly polite, then being shown in person is not something one would "luck" into, you see.
No PG, still hasn't set a date for our date. But I don't care, because McDonald's doesn't take reservations anyway.
When I moved to Chicago for undergrad, for the first six months I was constantly unsettled -- people kept looking at me. Like, making eye contact. And smiling. Half the time I thought it was someone I'd met and whose name I should remember, the other half the time I worried that I had something stuck to my face.
people kept looking at me. Like, making eye contact. And smiling.
Well, that's a little different. As I told the ex, I'm the master of the three second interaction. But anything longer than that and suddenly I've got this new person in my life. No thanks.
I remember when in England being struck by how often they said "sorry" when they were clearly not apologizing
Speaking as one empowered by nature to apologise to the bus which just ran me over, I think you'll find that we Brits use the "sorry" as short for, "I'm sorry, I didn't hear you." (ahem, otherwise known as "pardon"). Actually it amused me, when first in the US, that people would say "excuse me" in the same way.
I'm a big fan of quick eye contact and a head nod or murmered "howdy", along with a bit of a smile, to most all passersby. Near everyone does it in Austin, where I'm from, but hardly anyone here in NYC, where I am now. Still, it puts me in a better mood to feel like I'm being friendly, even if it is just a ritual. And it's pretty much just a reflex now, and I'm not inclined to change it.
A reflex that really threw me for a while when I was in China (it always comes back to China with me, I know), particularly as a teacher, was that the instinctive reaction of Chinese to embarassment is to smile. Broadly. With teeth showing and with full eye contact.
So, say you catch Qing reading a novel in class when he should be reading a short paragraph of information that he'll need to know in a few minutes in order to have a conversation with another student who is reading a different paragraph. His failure to read what he's been asked will thus result in his conversation partner losing out on practice too, as Qing won't have any information to impart. You politely but firmly ask him why he's not doing what was asked, and in response he just gives you this huge shit-eating grin while staring mutely at you.
Your natural gut reaction, as a born-and-bred-in-the-USA type, is to holler "What the FUCK is so funny, ASSHOLE? I'LL give you something to smile about!", and then proceed to pummel him with an eraser, a textbook, your lectern, whatever's handy.
But actually, in his mind he's showing deference to your authority, and acknowledgement of his guilt, while trying to soothe your righteous anger with a friendly show of teeth. It's kind of like our use of the sheepish grin and shoulder shrug, but the smile is huge and broad and obsequious. And Qing is 28 years old, not nine with his hand in the cookie jar. Plus he doesn't look down and hem and haw, he just stares at you.
Somehow this smile reaction always triggered in me, and other big noses I've talked to, a reflexive rush of blood to the head, even after I knew that his smile was also reflexive, and not meant specifically to piss me off.
It's weird to me how visceral our reactions can be to what are basically just social conventions, and how "natural" those conventions seem to us, even once we realize, on a conscious level, that they are just conventions, and that that their violation by someone with different conventions doesn't mean what our jerking knee tells us is meant.
Next up, Mitch's defense of cannibalism. You might be interested in this book, Mitch.
You big tease. I thought you were going to point me to a cookbook.
But seriously, cannibalism is icky. I'm just talking about gestures and facial expressions. What's really funny is when a tourist just starts gesturing and making facial expressions LOUDER and s l o w e r, as if that will make the inscrutable natives understand him.
Statistically Improbable Phrase: justifiably angry person
I agree that the rituals are important, and that there is no single set of "correct" rituals.
I remember when in England being struck by how often they said "sorry" when they were clearly not apologizing. it was more like a "huh?" to signal that they had not heard something, and it certaily sounds better than "duh, what?"
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 11:24 AM
I've used "sorry" that way. I think. Maybe I just think I should in the future.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 11:28 AM
ben,
Maybe I just think I should in the future.
Let me look in the future and see . . . no, you rarely use it in the most likely futures.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 11:56 AM
All other things being equal with respect to pointless rituals, short & simple always beats long and complicated. It's been scientifically proved. I've even got a link here somewhere.
Posted by Lex | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:10 PM
When I was saying I was approachable, I think it's because I may be the only New Yorker who smiles regularly, while walking around. I think it's much more typical to look distinctly grumpy.
I have an interest in the workings of cold politeness, of how you can observe form and maintain distance at the same time. Would like to have more command of that.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:36 PM
cold politeness, of how you can observe form and maintain distance at the same time
Hey, awesome, this is my default mode of public interaction; if you're lucky, someday I'll demonstrate in person.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:40 PM
Gawd, you're a promiscuous whore. Has the date of the PG date even been settled? WWSS (What Would Sistani Say)?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:43 PM
I'm pretty sure Sistani would say, "Impregnate the infidel whores and bring their children to me to be raised as Muslim warriors." I was merely making a joke, because if, in fact, I'm coldly polite, then being shown in person is not something one would "luck" into, you see.
No PG, still hasn't set a date for our date. But I don't care, because McDonald's doesn't take reservations anyway.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:46 PM
Maybe you should append "AMTF" to your jokes from now on. There are ...ideolectical?...levels to them, it seems.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:51 PM
I just default to being dour. No smiles for you.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:52 PM
Hey, awesome, this is my default mode of public interaction
Me too -- it keeps off all that annoying warm personal human contact.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:52 PM
Why are you so afraid of love, LizardBreath?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:53 PM
Sometimes, Wolfson, I can almost see how you got a girlfriend.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:54 PM
"AMTF"
Am making teh funny?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:55 PM
annoying warm personal human contact
Yes! What does one do with that? Where, for example, do you put it?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:55 PM
one guess
Posted by textualist | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:57 PM
Where, for example, do you put it?
Boy, it has been a long time, hasn't it?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:57 PM
"A Mind Too Fine...."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 12:57 PM
When I moved to Chicago for undergrad, for the first six months I was constantly unsettled -- people kept looking at me. Like, making eye contact. And smiling. Half the time I thought it was someone I'd met and whose name I should remember, the other half the time I worried that I had something stuck to my face.
I was terribly relieved to get back to NY.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 1:06 PM
Man, California's going to be fucking weird.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 1:07 PM
people kept looking at me. Like, making eye contact. And smiling.
Well, that's a little different. As I told the ex, I'm the master of the three second interaction. But anything longer than that and suddenly I've got this new person in my life. No thanks.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 1:10 PM
I'm the master of the three second interaction
Really, Ogged, you're making this too easy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 1:14 PM
It's been so slow around here...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-21-05 1:16 PM
I remember when in England being struck by how often they said "sorry" when they were clearly not apologizing
Speaking as one empowered by nature to apologise to the bus which just ran me over, I think you'll find that we Brits use the "sorry" as short for, "I'm sorry, I didn't hear you." (ahem, otherwise known as "pardon"). Actually it amused me, when first in the US, that people would say "excuse me" in the same way.
Huh? is more efficient though.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 7:27 AM
Wie, bitte?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 7:38 AM
Nichts von Bedeutung. Wir sind wieder bei Ironie gelandet. Ich bin schon still.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 7:46 AM
Austro,
The truly clever 'Mericans will use "exsqueeze me."
Try it sometime.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 9:10 AM
Ironie ist auf dem ernsthaften verloren.
(Google translation of this.)
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 9:31 AM
Tripp, does it work?
eb, you have a good memory.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 04-22-05 9:53 AM
I'm a big fan of quick eye contact and a head nod or murmered "howdy", along with a bit of a smile, to most all passersby. Near everyone does it in Austin, where I'm from, but hardly anyone here in NYC, where I am now. Still, it puts me in a better mood to feel like I'm being friendly, even if it is just a ritual. And it's pretty much just a reflex now, and I'm not inclined to change it.
A reflex that really threw me for a while when I was in China (it always comes back to China with me, I know), particularly as a teacher, was that the instinctive reaction of Chinese to embarassment is to smile. Broadly. With teeth showing and with full eye contact.
So, say you catch Qing reading a novel in class when he should be reading a short paragraph of information that he'll need to know in a few minutes in order to have a conversation with another student who is reading a different paragraph. His failure to read what he's been asked will thus result in his conversation partner losing out on practice too, as Qing won't have any information to impart. You politely but firmly ask him why he's not doing what was asked, and in response he just gives you this huge shit-eating grin while staring mutely at you.
Your natural gut reaction, as a born-and-bred-in-the-USA type, is to holler "What the FUCK is so funny, ASSHOLE? I'LL give you something to smile about!", and then proceed to pummel him with an eraser, a textbook, your lectern, whatever's handy.
But actually, in his mind he's showing deference to your authority, and acknowledgement of his guilt, while trying to soothe your righteous anger with a friendly show of teeth. It's kind of like our use of the sheepish grin and shoulder shrug, but the smile is huge and broad and obsequious. And Qing is 28 years old, not nine with his hand in the cookie jar. Plus he doesn't look down and hem and haw, he just stares at you.
Somehow this smile reaction always triggered in me, and other big noses I've talked to, a reflexive rush of blood to the head, even after I knew that his smile was also reflexive, and not meant specifically to piss me off.
It's weird to me how visceral our reactions can be to what are basically just social conventions, and how "natural" those conventions seem to us, even once we realize, on a conscious level, that they are just conventions, and that that their violation by someone with different conventions doesn't mean what our jerking knee tells us is meant.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 04-23-05 7:44 PM
Next up, Mitch's defense of cannibalism. You might be interested in this book, Mitch.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-23-05 7:52 PM
Statistically Improbable Phrase: justifiably angry person
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-23-05 8:03 PM
Yeah, that cracked me up.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-23-05 8:07 PM
Next up, Mitch's defense of cannibalism. You might be interested in this book, Mitch.
You big tease. I thought you were going to point me to a cookbook.
But seriously, cannibalism is icky. I'm just talking about gestures and facial expressions. What's really funny is when a tourist just starts gesturing and making facial expressions LOUDER and s l o w e r, as if that will make the inscrutable natives understand him.
Statistically Improbable Phrase: justifiably angry person
Yeah, that cracked me up.
Actually, it just made me angry.
But I feel I had a right to be so.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 04-24-05 7:01 AM