I lurk here sometimes. I just wanted to thank Ben for the Girl from Ipanema reference- it was lovely. I've been replaying all my old bossa nova albums of late.
I am using very short sentences in an attempt to avoid the wrath of the Grammar God.
Also, it seems logical for exes to be able to give good advice on what kind of wife ogged should have. They probably have a pretty complete knowledge of his needs. It's a cute sort of matriarchal dealie!
I just blew the not-making-ben-angry thing, didn't I?
Very few grammatical mistakes actually make me angry. Putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its" or using the "reason is because" (though Weiner, IIRC, thinks it's acceptable) construction come closest in that they annoy me a bit. It's a neutral thing--reflexive, perhaps. A compulsion. Anyway, I correct because I love.
Personally, I think our O'Brien-in-training has been pretty mellow of late. I know that I've left some awful bloomers without feeling the lash; of course, he could just be skipping my comments.
Do the exes have the list, ogged? And how well do you think the blog represents you; could they point someone this way and say, "That's who he is"?
Could work -- Mr. Breath was a hand-me-down (with the tags still on) from my big sister and her best friend from high school. He was friends with the friend (Scrabble girl), wanted to go out with her and got shot down, met my sister through her, wanted to date her and got shot down, but got told to wait till I got back from the Peace Corps, because I was a much better idea for him. Worked like a charm.
So a couple of women who know you well but don't want to date you? Probably an excellent relationship-finding committee.
I think they have seen the list, but I'm counting on the fact that anyone they like, I'll like.
And how well do you think the blog represents you; could they point someone this way and say, "That's who he is"?
Good question. I'm not sure I'm in a position to say. Everything on the blog is true in the sense that what I say happened happened, and what I say I think, I think, it's also pretty incomplete and selective.
I think about the fact that I'm being judged on my grammar when I comment here. I even think about it on my blog now, because I know Wolfson has visited me. But I don't care, because I tell myself that in formal writing I know what I'm doing, I'm just trying to adopt an informal, colloquial tone on ze blog, or in comments, so as not to appear cold and haughty. Yes - that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Geez -- my blog-comment typing is essentially at the monkey-pounding-on-a-typewriter level. If there's anyone out there not commenting for fear of correction, I promise to type worse and take the heat.
And ogged -- I'll accept that all the other ladies want to date you. These two, almost by definition? No.
Unless I've confused the story, these are exes, right? I suppose I haven't seen you post anything about the end of the relationship with ex-before-last, but ex would be, in this context, defined as a woman who, despite every opportunity, chose not to continue to be in a relationship with you.
Unless I've gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick somehow. It's all part of my plan to make this place more welcoming for insecure possible commenters.
Damn -- deadpan kidding gets me every time online. I get all neurotic about having accidentally offended someone. Offending people on purpose I'm good with, but doing it accidentally makes me twitchy.
Yeah, well I was mouthng off about stuff and then they said they were going to do this ... but I didn't really believe it. Kinda makes you realize you gotta be careful what you say on blogs. And kinda funny, eh? I'm curious to see just who/what would get chosen for me by people who don't really know me.
And I won't want a salad from McDs, but they do have good fries.
Of course, think of what I can say if we go to McD's ... I flew all the way out to Oggedville and where does he take me? To McDonald's? And I was way overdressed in my hookerboots but the 3 year old sticking fries up his nose at the next table kept pointing at them and screaming "lady pirate! lady pirate!"
Wow, I missed the nails. I maintain she is cute, despite the earings, which I noticed your pick has stolen from my pick. The femme in your link is also quite lovely, even with the earrings. Anyway, I believe I have already named my one true love on this blog.
Yesterday, I found myself seriously wishing McD's sold a tofu burger. (I was stuck at a place where my eating options were limited, mind you.)
PG, to a good blogger, everything is bloggable. A good craftsman never blames his tools, as they say on Sportscenter, which we're going to watch, after dinner.
Ogged, you think I needed to be told this? Remember, I've blogged what I eat for various meals, random dreams, faculty meetings, my thoughts on socks ... yeah, the list of boring topics endlessly goes on.
Ogged - re "chasing the date". I'm actually not sure. I'm not a fluent speaker of that vernacular. I have an idea that it might be something you'd say about (for example) a dog who wants to insert its nose in that area. But I'd be surprised if it isn't a euphemism for anal sex too. Everything else is.
I'm stilll a bit confused about how the exes are supposed to operate. Are they going to be able to find someone from this club who lives in your area? You're not up for the LD relationship, are you? Also, if they have more than one pick, make'em submit specifics in e-mail form, and blog it for us to snark about and then select lucky lady no. 1.
That makes it ever so much worse. You'll no doubt be turning viable, nubile women I might be interested in off of men for life. The exes must be stopped!
No, I did not. Boy, I wish I had been sophisticated enough to write a self-analysis like that before grad school!
The first thing to say is that Wolfson is correct. Compared to a community of scholarship, the private library route is unsatisfactory. It's also true that absent heroic intellectual discipline, lone scholars produce anemic work.
The second thing is that I'm not trying to harsh academia's mellow. I do think that (say) Tyler Burge is living a fit and proper human life.
Third, and this is the point w.r.t Adam Kotsko, is that there is a difference between loving ideas as an amateur, and wanting one's profession to be ideas. The chasm between the two is a foot wide and a thousand deep. Happiness comes from understanding on which side of that divide you belong.
Fourth, and the only really helpful point, is that a person should try both sides, but the order in which you try them has consequences. That, unfortunately, is just the social organization we have. Grad school then job: hard to get a good job. Job then grad school: no real damage on the academic side (so you're older: so what. This isn't mathematics). And easier to re-enter the working world.
I will dedicate a full 45 minutes of idleness to you, mike d, for those fifteen dollars. That's a pretty good rate, I think. It'll be like one of those adopt-a-highway programs: for three-quarters of an hour I'll sit at my computer, or on the couch with a book, or some such, with a sign thanking you for your sponsorship.
That's all true, baa, and well put. But you know the working world, and it's money, is very hard to leave. It's not just a matter of "work for a couple of years, then go to school if you still want to," but "work for a couple of years, and then change your life for the worse in lots of immediate and tangible ways...." Not many people will make that change, and with someone as talented as B-dub, it seems a shame to have him pass up the thing he wants to do. Still and all, it's a tough call, and I've seconded your advice to him in the past, and still do: working doesn't just give you a clear view of what you're about, but makes you a better student, I think.
Well, apparently I-banking, for example. It isn't like most of the post-undergraduate jobs out there require technical expertise. If he works a bank, he's going to be doing org charts in PowerPoint and picking pretty colors till 3:00 am for all 18 months. So query whether or not most jobs are actually pretty trivial, including doctor, lawyer, indian chief.
A little more seriously, is there something to be learned about "real world" experience that is not conveyed by a) working through school, b) television, c) movies, d) friends/acquaintances, and e) family. I feel fairly inundated with data about "working in the real world," to the point that, to be honest, I don't feel it's something I need to explore. It's still a choice, of course, but it's not something I sit around and wonder what it's like.
Michael, I'm returning to school after working at real jobs for about 12 years after undergrad. I can tell you that it helped me in many areas in which I needed help: public speaking, confidence-building, overcoming procrastination, prioritization...the list goes on. The basic idea is that when you're working in the real world and you've got all these people and deadlines and responsibilities bearing down on you, you learn to (and I know this is corny) stretch in order to get the job done. I feel I'm much more productive, focused, efficient, etc. all because I had to be so at work. And for the latter years, I had the good fortune to work with a great management team. I apply a lot of what I learned from them to what I do on a daily basis.
I didn't need to work for 12 years to get these benefits and I would change that if I could. But I'm glad I did spend time in the real world, because I needed toughening up
Yeah, but nobody openly talks about it that way unless he's hoping that someone will disabuse him of his "cynicism."
Don't know what you mean by that, SCMT. If someone could disabuse me of my "cynicism" vis-a-vis "authenticity", that would be nice, I suppose, but I'm not holding out any hope. (I sort of think that authenticity is only possible for those who do not have the concept "authenticity".)
As for what I would consider a non-trivial job, well, follow the "this" link in the post ogged linked to.
apo, that's what i get for commenting three High Lifes into the Yanks-Sox game (only cuz they weren't showing the Nats-D'backs game down here... grumble grumble...)
And then, after some graduate work in philosophy, how do you convince the erstwhile student that there is such thing as a non-trivial job?
Last year I told a friend that I wanted a bumper sticker that read "I'd rather be contemplating the eternal", and he predicted I wouldn't last long in the working world.
Michael, at 87, if that's how you feel about work, then you really need to work. It will surprise you, I promise. First, there's the experience of being a full-time worker; then realizing that there a bajillion things that people can be good at, and that you, though you were pretty sure you were a superior being, are in fact good at maybe seven of them. That's just for example and for starters.
I think most people mean by "authentic life" something similar to "meaningful life." I don't much believe in the existence of either (except as an after-effect), and, if I read you correctly, we have roughly equivalent beliefs. But if that's so, then it's not a question to consider; accept that life is about spending your time as enjoyably as possible while marching ceaselessly toward death, and sort out the personal tics that best determine your happiness over a relatively short time-scale. That you mention "authenticity" at all makes me wonder if you've come to terms with the absence of it.
Obviously, people (like me) making suggestions see all the youthful promise of your life and want to take it for a ride; we want you to make different mistakes than the ones we have. Personally, I think the CS program would be a good one for you. Deep problems with pragmatic importance, really smart colleagues, a good paycheck, and practical skills if everything in your narrowed field goes to hell. So why not do it?
Why do you enjoy hurting me, ogged? Anyway, at 1 gig, I figure I can accept a lot of spam. (Yes, it's my first gmail account, and yes, I am sadly excited about it).
Hotmail is fucked up. I've got a brand-new hotmail account, and day one I was getting a lot of spam. They must sell your address as you fill out the form.
Re: Ogged at #101: Absolutely re: the superior being business. Also, besides learning those seven things at which you excel, you also might learn that there are other things you want to do; perhaps something you want to do even more than what you originally planned.
OT: Ogged, did you always not have permalinks? I wanted to email an unfogged post to my husband (bc he was all the way down the hall), but I didn't see a permalink.
This sounds suspiciously like the plot for a romantic comedy.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 5:42 PM
I would be nervous -- if not horrified -- for two of my exes to meet each other, much less try to set me up.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 5:59 PM
I expect the plan to come to fruition; there is no justice in life.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:03 PM
tall and beautiful and young and lovely, the ex-fiancée of ogged goes walking, and when she passes each one she passes goes "aaah!"
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:09 PM
Thanks, Ben; just what I needed.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:12 PM
Maybe this will suit you better.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:15 PM
I lurk here sometimes. I just wanted to thank Ben for the Girl from Ipanema reference- it was lovely. I've been replaying all my old bossa nova albums of late.
I am using very short sentences in an attempt to avoid the wrath of the Grammar God.
Also, it seems logical for exes to be able to give good advice on what kind of wife ogged should have. They probably have a pretty complete knowledge of his needs. It's a cute sort of matriarchal dealie!
I just blew the not-making-ben-angry thing, didn't I?
Posted by winna | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:18 PM
I should do a post asking the lurkers how many of them don't comment because of Wolfson.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:19 PM
Very few grammatical mistakes actually make me angry. Putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its" or using the "reason is because" (though Weiner, IIRC, thinks it's acceptable) construction come closest in that they annoy me a bit. It's a neutral thing--reflexive, perhaps. A compulsion. Anyway, I correct because I love.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:23 PM
Ok, fine ... but don't you be getting married and all before our date!
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:26 PM
Personally, I think our O'Brien-in-training has been pretty mellow of late. I know that I've left some awful bloomers without feeling the lash; of course, he could just be skipping my comments.
Do the exes have the list, ogged? And how well do you think the blog represents you; could they point someone this way and say, "That's who he is"?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:27 PM
Speaking of which PG, you haven't given me a date for our date yet. Anyway, pre-existing commitments are fine, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:29 PM
Could work -- Mr. Breath was a hand-me-down (with the tags still on) from my big sister and her best friend from high school. He was friends with the friend (Scrabble girl), wanted to go out with her and got shot down, met my sister through her, wanted to date her and got shot down, but got told to wait till I got back from the Peace Corps, because I was a much better idea for him. Worked like a charm.
So a couple of women who know you well but don't want to date you? Probably an excellent relationship-finding committee.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:33 PM
Do the exes have the list, ogged?
I think they have seen the list, but I'm counting on the fact that anyone they like, I'll like.
And how well do you think the blog represents you; could they point someone this way and say, "That's who he is"?
Good question. I'm not sure I'm in a position to say. Everything on the blog is true in the sense that what I say happened happened, and what I say I think, I think, it's also pretty incomplete and selective.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:38 PM
but don't want to date you
Hey, come on, you know deep down all the ladies want to date me.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:40 PM
I think about the fact that I'm being judged on my grammar when I comment here. I even think about it on my blog now, because I know Wolfson has visited me. But I don't care, because I tell myself that in formal writing I know what I'm doing, I'm just trying to adopt an informal, colloquial tone on ze blog, or in comments, so as not to appear cold and haughty. Yes - that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:42 PM
it's also pretty incomplete and selective
You mean because deep down, you're the sensitive poet type?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:44 PM
You mean that's not the impression you get from the blog?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:45 PM
Well—part of him is, anyway.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:45 PM
Geez -- my blog-comment typing is essentially at the monkey-pounding-on-a-typewriter level. If there's anyone out there not commenting for fear of correction, I promise to type worse and take the heat.
And ogged -- I'll accept that all the other ladies want to date you. These two, almost by definition? No.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:46 PM
LB, I'm sure I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:48 PM
Unless I've confused the story, these are exes, right? I suppose I haven't seen you post anything about the end of the relationship with ex-before-last, but ex would be, in this context, defined as a woman who, despite every opportunity, chose not to continue to be in a relationship with you.
Unless I've gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick somehow. It's all part of my plan to make this place more welcoming for insecure possible commenters.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:54 PM
Kidding, denial, etc.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 6:57 PM
Working on the date, ogged. Will probably buy the ticket next week, when I get home.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:00 PM
Damn -- deadpan kidding gets me every time online. I get all neurotic about having accidentally offended someone. Offending people on purpose I'm good with, but doing it accidentally makes me twitchy.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:01 PM
This seems a much more appropriate way for a blogger to find a wife.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:02 PM
Offending people on purpose I'm good with, but doing it accidentally makes me twitchy.
Hey, me too!
PG, better hurry, or Mickey D's will be the only place still taking reservations.
Michael, no Russians, remember?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:03 PM
Oh yeah, too bad, some of them are even cute.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:05 PM
We at the Mineshaft are very interested in ogged's date.
Posted by Anthony | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:09 PM
BTW ogged, over here people are trying to find me a date.
And I'm not eating at McDs. Surely you can do better than that. But this may explain why previous relationships have failed.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:09 PM
Michael, that's what you like? Girly girly. Look at those nails! Jesus, Kitty Assassin.
This one has a sweet smile, and likes plastic fruit. And I'm not bald.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:11 PM
Does anyone really use "date" to mean "anus"??!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:11 PM
Yes.
Posted by Anthony | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:13 PM
PG, that contest was your idea! I can't believe this. And Mickey D's has those nice salads in a cup; you'll like it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:14 PM
So, Anthony, what do they call taking someone out for the purposes of, you know, fooling them and taking advantage of them?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:15 PM
Well, that's "going on a date". As opposed to "chasing the date".
Posted by Anthony | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:16 PM
Hmm, ok. Is "chasing the date" like "chasing tail," or does it have to do specifically with the anus?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:19 PM
Yeah, well I was mouthng off about stuff and then they said they were going to do this ... but I didn't really believe it. Kinda makes you realize you gotta be careful what you say on blogs. And kinda funny, eh? I'm curious to see just who/what would get chosen for me by people who don't really know me.
And I won't want a salad from McDs, but they do have good fries.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:19 PM
re: 31
Her smile looks a little cynical to me.
No, I'm not projecting.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:19 PM
Well, PG, as long as you blog it...
W/D, I don't really see it, but maybe I'm making allowances for the fact that she's on a mail order bride site.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:23 PM
So, PG, you're refusing McDonald's, eh? So high maintenance.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:24 PM
Dude, you gotta take me somewhere worth blogging.
Of course, think of what I can say if we go to McD's ... I flew all the way out to Oggedville and where does he take me? To McDonald's? And I was way overdressed in my hookerboots but the 3 year old sticking fries up his nose at the next table kept pointing at them and screaming "lady pirate! lady pirate!"
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:26 PM
Wow, I missed the nails. I maintain she is cute, despite the earings, which I noticed your pick has stolen from my pick. The femme in your link is also quite lovely, even with the earrings. Anyway, I believe I have already named my one true love on this blog.
Yesterday, I found myself seriously wishing McD's sold a tofu burger. (I was stuck at a place where my eating options were limited, mind you.)
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:28 PM
PG, to a good blogger, everything is bloggable. A good craftsman never blames his tools, as they say on Sportscenter, which we're going to watch, after dinner.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:28 PM
Ogged, you think I needed to be told this? Remember, I've blogged what I eat for various meals, random dreams, faculty meetings, my thoughts on socks ... yeah, the list of boring topics endlessly goes on.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:31 PM
Ogged - re "chasing the date". I'm actually not sure. I'm not a fluent speaker of that vernacular. I have an idea that it might be something you'd say about (for example) a dog who wants to insert its nose in that area. But I'd be surprised if it isn't a euphemism for anal sex too. Everything else is.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:32 PM
Stupid forgetting my name computer stupid.
Posted by Anthony | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:33 PM
I ain't paying for no "previous commitments ok" date. It's not the fucking 70s.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:33 PM
Where exactly is Anthony writing from, prison?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:33 PM
Some call it prison, others call it dissertation hell.
Posted by Anthony | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:34 PM
"How manu euphamisms are there for anal sex? "42"
hmmm...seems a little low.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:34 PM
It's ok, baa, your work here is done; the date seems to be happening, without you actually picking up the tab, for which offer I'm still grateful.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:36 PM
I'm stilll a bit confused about how the exes are supposed to operate. Are they going to be able to find someone from this club who lives in your area? You're not up for the LD relationship, are you? Also, if they have more than one pick, make'em submit specifics in e-mail form, and blog it for us to snark about and then select lucky lady no. 1.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:40 PM
Just like compassionate conservatism and poverty relief!
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:40 PM
Ha!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:42 PM
This just means baa has that much more ability to pick up tabs on my behalf! Big win!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:44 PM
who lives in your area?
Our area, you mean. Dunno. Doesn't everyone move every few years anyway?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:45 PM
That makes it ever so much worse. You'll no doubt be turning viable, nubile women I might be interested in off of men for life. The exes must be stopped!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:52 PM
I don't want to move every few years.
Too bad that seems to be my fate for the next set of few yearses.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 7:54 PM
Ben W, I will buy you dinner if you agree to spend 18 months at an I-bank before going to grad school...
Bonus -- you won't need to move at all 'cause you'll live in your cubicle.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:05 PM
I like the idea of living in my cubicle least of all.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:12 PM
baa, did you see Wolfson's post here?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:13 PM
Baa, I will wait 18 months before going to grad school for the princely sum of $50,000.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:20 PM
ben, if you're going to work for an I-bank for 18 months, triple that.
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:29 PM
I meant without working.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:31 PM
No, I did not. Boy, I wish I had been sophisticated enough to write a self-analysis like that before grad school!
The first thing to say is that Wolfson is correct. Compared to a community of scholarship, the private library route is unsatisfactory. It's also true that absent heroic intellectual discipline, lone scholars produce anemic work.
The second thing is that I'm not trying to harsh academia's mellow. I do think that (say) Tyler Burge is living a fit and proper human life.
Third, and this is the point w.r.t Adam Kotsko, is that there is a difference between loving ideas as an amateur, and wanting one's profession to be ideas. The chasm between the two is a foot wide and a thousand deep. Happiness comes from understanding on which side of that divide you belong.
Fourth, and the only really helpful point, is that a person should try both sides, but the order in which you try them has consequences. That, unfortunately, is just the social organization we have. Grad school then job: hard to get a good job. Job then grad school: no real damage on the academic side (so you're older: so what. This isn't mathematics). And easier to re-enter the working world.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:32 PM
well, i've got fifteen dollars in my pocket- how long are you willing to not work for that?
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:33 PM
It's not the waiting, it's the working. This is so exactly like compassionate conservatism.
Also, I need the money to buy myself a emerald encrusted orb.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:35 PM
It turns out that autopr0n doesn't exist anymore.
Baa, I know that the importance is on getting actual work experience in non-trivial workplaces, and not on passing the time.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:40 PM
I will dedicate a full 45 minutes of idleness to you, mike d, for those fifteen dollars. That's a pretty good rate, I think. It'll be like one of those adopt-a-highway programs: for three-quarters of an hour I'll sit at my computer, or on the couch with a book, or some such, with a sign thanking you for your sponsorship.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:42 PM
I know you know, Bwo, I just couldn't resist the compassionate conservatism two-fer.
And I think emerald-encrusted should have been hyphenated. Judges?
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:45 PM
That's all true, baa, and well put. But you know the working world, and it's money, is very hard to leave. It's not just a matter of "work for a couple of years, then go to school if you still want to," but "work for a couple of years, and then change your life for the worse in lots of immediate and tangible ways...." Not many people will make that change, and with someone as talented as B-dub, it seems a shame to have him pass up the thing he wants to do. Still and all, it's a tough call, and I've seconded your advice to him in the past, and still do: working doesn't just give you a clear view of what you're about, but makes you a better student, I think.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:46 PM
I think so too. What kind of orb do you want encrusted with emeralds?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:47 PM
You know, you could probably get your orbs encrusted in peridot or diopside for a lot less.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:49 PM
can i recommend journalism? the hours & vacation of the working world, and the pay of academia!
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:50 PM
and b-dub, i expect two hours of idleness for $15, and expect it to be executed poo-side. company benefits include margaritas and SPF-15.
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 8:57 PM
Looking for "authenticity" is a mugg's game, Wolfson. Take the money, take the money, take the money.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:03 PM
Ben says that about authenticity in his post, no?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:04 PM
Yeah, but nobody openly talks about it that way unless he's hoping that someone will disabuse him of his "cynicism."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:06 PM
another worthwhile question is where one aquires a non-trivial job with a undergraduate degree in philosophy....
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:07 PM
Huh, I didn't read it that way, Tim. Maybe Ben will read this! And respond!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:08 PM
Michael, try not to ask that question.
Seriously, I don't know.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:09 PM
And then, after some graduate work in philosophy, how do you convince the erstwhile student that there is such thing as a non-trivial job?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:15 PM
Well, apparently I-banking, for example. It isn't like most of the post-undergraduate jobs out there require technical expertise. If he works a bank, he's going to be doing org charts in PowerPoint and picking pretty colors till 3:00 am for all 18 months. So query whether or not most jobs are actually pretty trivial, including doctor, lawyer, indian chief.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:16 PM
where one aquires a non-trivial job with a undergraduate degree in philosophy....
Ooh, ooh I know!
Wait, you said non-trivial.
Wait, you said job.
Nevermind.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:28 PM
Ogged, in #72, I think you mean "its".
Also, regarding the exes, what kind of a club are we talking about? Sorority? Rugby? Sailing? Chess? Chmess?
Posted by adb | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 9:43 PM
A little more seriously, is there something to be learned about "real world" experience that is not conveyed by a) working through school, b) television, c) movies, d) friends/acquaintances, and e) family. I feel fairly inundated with data about "working in the real world," to the point that, to be honest, I don't feel it's something I need to explore. It's still a choice, of course, but it's not something I sit around and wonder what it's like.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-14-05 10:12 PM
Michael, I'm returning to school after working at real jobs for about 12 years after undergrad. I can tell you that it helped me in many areas in which I needed help: public speaking, confidence-building, overcoming procrastination, prioritization...the list goes on. The basic idea is that when you're working in the real world and you've got all these people and deadlines and responsibilities bearing down on you, you learn to (and I know this is corny) stretch in order to get the job done. I feel I'm much more productive, focused, efficient, etc. all because I had to be so at work. And for the latter years, I had the good fortune to work with a great management team. I apply a lot of what I learned from them to what I do on a daily basis.
I didn't need to work for 12 years to get these benefits and I would change that if I could. But I'm glad I did spend time in the real world, because I needed toughening up
And that's my $0.03.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 4:31 AM
miked, you expect it to be executed "poo-side"? Eek. Talk about chasing the date...
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 5:32 AM
Yeah, but nobody openly talks about it that way unless he's hoping that someone will disabuse him of his "cynicism."
Don't know what you mean by that, SCMT. If someone could disabuse me of my "cynicism" vis-a-vis "authenticity", that would be nice, I suppose, but I'm not holding out any hope. (I sort of think that authenticity is only possible for those who do not have the concept "authenticity".)
As for what I would consider a non-trivial job, well, follow the "this" link in the post ogged linked to.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:35 AM
apo, that's what i get for commenting three High Lifes into the Yanks-Sox game (only cuz they weren't showing the Nats-D'backs game down here... grumble grumble...)
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:41 AM
And then, after some graduate work in philosophy, how do you convince the erstwhile student that there is such thing as a non-trivial job?
Last year I told a friend that I wanted a bumper sticker that read "I'd rather be contemplating the eternal", and he predicted I wouldn't last long in the working world.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:43 AM
Ben, if it's any consolation, there aren't going to be many non-trivial jobs left after the oil crash.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:45 AM
I meant trivial jobs, of course.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:48 AM
I want to work in the hog farms.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:49 AM
Who doesn't?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:50 AM
The hogs?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:54 AM
I take it you haven't seen Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, LizardBreath.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:55 AM
No. I gather that the hog farms aren't about bacon production?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 7:56 AM
Nope! Pig shit and pig gas contain valuable methane!
Beyond Thunderdome is a pretty weird movie. About a third of it is ripped off from Riddley Walker, a fairly great book.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:00 AM
Michael, at 87, if that's how you feel about work, then you really need to work. It will surprise you, I promise. First, there's the experience of being a full-time worker; then realizing that there a bajillion things that people can be good at, and that you, though you were pretty sure you were a superior being, are in fact good at maybe seven of them. That's just for example and for starters.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:01 AM
I love that movie. I didn't know about the Riddley Walker thing.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:03 AM
The movie "Mad Max" comes to mind.
Check out the photos.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:22 AM
Wolfson:
I think most people mean by "authentic life" something similar to "meaningful life." I don't much believe in the existence of either (except as an after-effect), and, if I read you correctly, we have roughly equivalent beliefs. But if that's so, then it's not a question to consider; accept that life is about spending your time as enjoyably as possible while marching ceaselessly toward death, and sort out the personal tics that best determine your happiness over a relatively short time-scale. That you mention "authenticity" at all makes me wonder if you've come to terms with the absence of it.
Obviously, people (like me) making suggestions see all the youthful promise of your life and want to take it for a ride; we want you to make different mistakes than the ones we have. Personally, I think the CS program would be a good one for you. Deep problems with pragmatic importance, really smart colleagues, a good paycheck, and practical skills if everything in your narrowed field goes to hell. So why not do it?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:29 AM
103 -- Wow.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:31 AM
Hey, Tim has a real email address now. Everyone put it on a spam list!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:31 AM
Why do you enjoy hurting me, ogged? Anyway, at 1 gig, I figure I can accept a lot of spam. (Yes, it's my first gmail account, and yes, I am sadly excited about it).
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:37 AM
Hotmail is fucked up. I've got a brand-new hotmail account, and day one I was getting a lot of spam. They must sell your address as you fill out the form.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:44 AM
Actually, Tim, you have 2 gigs, and gmail's spam filter is pretty good.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:47 AM
I thought the 2 gig think was an April Fools joke, and a shot a Yahoo.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:50 AM
It's the truth.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 8:50 AM
Michael, at 87, if that's how you feel about work, then you really need to work.
I have held a number of menial full-time jobs. I suppose you mean more-than-$6.00-an-hour work?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 9:59 AM
Yes, I mean a job you have to take seriously.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 10:01 AM
Re: Ogged at #101: Absolutely re: the superior being business. Also, besides learning those seven things at which you excel, you also might learn that there are other things you want to do; perhaps something you want to do even more than what you originally planned.
OT: Ogged, did you always not have permalinks? I wanted to email an unfogged post to my husband (bc he was all the way down the hall), but I didn't see a permalink.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 10:53 AM
Okay, d'oh, strike that permalink question. Definitely not a superior being.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 10:55 AM
We've always had, and continue to have, permalinks for posts and comments. Do they not show up for you?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 10:55 AM
Ogged, at 101, is true. Work is suprising.
Posted by joe o | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 11:28 AM
Yes, the links show up...I just looked right past them. Thanks.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 04-15-05 11:36 AM