Jesus Christ, ogged, you're dead inside. Pet Sounds is sheer tortured genius.
Everything else is candy (good, bad, and in-between, but candy) or failed attempts to recreate Pet Sounds. But that one album puts Brian Wilson in the pantheon.
Is that a falsetto that Wilson sings in? Or is it called something else? Maybe that's it. I can't abide high-voiced male singing, unless the guy also sounds insane, like Clarence Ashley.
"I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" features, if not a theremin, at least a theremin-like instrument! (I think it's not a theremin, but a related instrument.)
Without the Beach Boys, would we have Barenaked Ladies?
2) The sheer inventiveness in use of found sounds/non-traditional instruments (bicycle horns and bells, etc.)
3) The way the whole album works as an album. It's a mood piece.
4) The lyrics--my god the lyrics. I don't know if this is the case for others who have spent some portion of their lives dealing with chronic depression (much better at the moment, thanks), but that album captures perfectly what it feels like to be depressed and unsure of yourself.
I'm now going to listen to Pet Sounds on my iPod in protest of this sacrilege. I recommend that others do likewise. I refuse to defend the Beach Boys as I don't accept as a subsidiary premise that my own taste in music is particularly good.
Wouldn't it be nice is reasonably catchy, but I can only take about two minutes of that singing. Am I supposed to know some Beach Boys' lyrics to understand your question, baa? Is that fair? At least neither one of us likes jazz.
Ah Kriston, just bustin' yer chops. The trouble I've had with my name over the years, I should know better than to be a dick about such things. (It's weird, and subject to misspellings and mispronunciations, not easily mistaken for another gender).
Is that a falsetto that Wilson sings in? Or is it called something else? Maybe that's it. I can't abide high-voiced male singing
Would it help if you pretended they're castrati?
They're just very pretty songs, with some of the greatest harmonies ever recorded in pop music. I do like Smile better than Pet Sounds, though. And Wilson's parts also aren't sung in as high a register as his Beach Boys stuff -- maybe you should give it a try, Ogged
I am prepared to admit, however, that Van Dyke Parks' lyrics are, um, slightly overrated.
OK, I *do* understand that a singer's voice can make otherwise acceptable music unlistenable. I find anything whatsoever by Rush excruciatingly painful to listen to (well, Geddy Lee's voice and the Randoidisms).
But let me ask you this, those of you who are haters: do you like pop in general? That is, pure cane sugar? Cuz for me, Pet Sounds is pretty much all that a pop album can be (well, except danceable). The pinnacle of the form. (Other examples, more recent: Skylarking by XTC, Sowing The Seeds of Love by Tears for Fears.)
As in the thread linked in the post, you still don't seem to have articulated what you *do* like. Gangsta rap? Whatever that stuff Weiner and Wolfson like is called? Tibetan throat chanting?
All we've got is vague feelings about Wayne Newton, and if I recall correctly some indie-country-pop single.
I remember that now. (It seems to be my day for saying that.)
I think if we were roommates (this being the test for musical compatibility--I'm not proposing anything here), we'd be able to find some common ground in the folk/country area, but you would get really fucking annoyed with the Pantera and Judas Priest, and I might have to punch you in the mouth every time Dave Mathews came on.
I hear you, Ogged. I only recently bought "Pet Sounds", egged on by all the "best album evar" recommendations and poll positions. And... it's pretty good. If I had no expectations, I'd probably say that it was pretty, not bad at all, better than most BB singles I've heard. But it wasn't even the best album I bought that day. (That was Andrew Bird's "The Mysterious Production of Eggs".)
It was a joke in the same way that Gangsta rap was a joke. I thought unlikely but not impossible. I've heard a bit of that stuff, and it's kinda cool. My RA my sophomore year had taught himself to do it--really weird coming out of a white guys mouth.
This thread has gotten beyond me. Ogged clarifies usefully when he decries "pretty songs" and jazz. Some people hear Death Cab for Cutie and think 'genius'; other think 'could this rock any less?' Ogged, I'll bet, is the latter. Chopper, I fear you and ogged a separed by a musical chasm.
baa--I think you're correct. I'm fairly omnivorous--I like certain jazz, old (pre-1980) country, alt-country, metal, punk, post-punk, some industrial (pre-1995 or so), some techno, the pop stuff mentioned elsewhere in this thread, some hip-hop. ogged doesn't seem limited, exactly, in his tastes, but our areas of overlap are very few.
It also helps to be able to hear music in the context of its time, both socially and in terms of musical history; it's difficult to understand or appreciate how revolutionary music (or anything else) can have been without such perspective. Not, of course, that that's a reason anyone should "like" it; it might, however, be a reason to not simply have no respect for it, or to understand why other people might have different reactions.
Of course, my opinions about music are worth what you pay for them.
I'm okay with listening to Pet Sounds, but I don't think I'd ever choose it to put on the turntable myself. As with ogged, the voice does put me off. But even without that, I truly don't understand the reverence a significant portion of people display towards this album. It's fine, nothing wrong with it, but also not particularly compelling to me. And I like the Beatles and plenty of poppy stuff.
At some point during my long China sojourn, I was back stateside for a trip and at a gathering full of Austin hepcats. Everyone was raving about the new Flaming Lips album (I'm pretty sure it was The Soft Bulletin) that was playing and comparing it to Pet Sounds. And I thought something along the lines of, "Wow, I don't find The Flips particularly compelling either. What the fuck is wrong with all these people???" Alas, the world has an annoying habit of not listening to me.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I would really love to hear (but only once) a Beach Boys cover of either "Walk Like a Man" or "Big Girls Don't Cry" or "Sherry" (as done originally by The Four Seasons, with Frankie Valli flexing his castrato chops).
I think of myself as a smalltown metalhead who has broadened his horizons over the years. Who really, really hates Dave Matthews. Like fingernails on a chalkboard. (And, all kidding around, I'm not judging ogged for his taste or lack thereof, the same for WOlfosn, SCMT, et al.).
Heh. I put in the China reference as a way signifying that for almost six years I had only a very tenuous link to what was being listened to (or watched, read, etc.) here in the States. There's this huge hole in my familiarity with popular culture during the 1995-2000 period.
Of course as soon as I hit Post I thought, "Oh no, I done went and mentioned China again. Shit!"
But then I guess everyone has to have their own little bit of flair.
And I know some people who think blathering on about China all the time is quite becoming.
BTW, if you're looking for intelligent music reviews from the perspective of a russian who loves 60's pop music I strongly recommend browsing the archive of George Starostin's site.
Back in the '80s when I was in college my room mate and I could only agree on one album that we both liked. Squeeze.
He was a big league dead head, and Floyd fan. I've learned to appreciate the former, still have trouble with the latter. But by mid terms we both hated Squeeze. Passionately.
The lyrics and singing suck, but the suckiness is kinda ok (it goes with it a bit), but the orchestration is cool.
Now Nico w/ the Velvet Underground, THERE'S a bad singer who ends up sounding really good. Although, sometimes she overdoes it (since when does anyone pronounce 'clown' as 'clon').
If we can't make you understand the Beatles, you're surely never going to understand Pet Sounds. The Beatles say they owe Sgt Pepper to Brian Wilson; The Beach Boys say they owe Pet Sounds to Lennon/McCartney. The production was virtually unparalelled for its time. The orchestration and arrangments are outstanding.
Folks who don't spend a great deal of time and effort listening to music find it hard to get past lyrics and vocal style. Records like Pet Sounds were pop hits in their day, because of the lyrics... or, maybe because it's great stuff to dance to. But 40 years later, it's the best album EVER, because the rest of it stands the test of time.
Take Coldplay. The world loves Coldplay for the same reason they loved the Beach Boys. The songs are easy to listen to, and everyone feels like it could have been written about them. There's comfort in that. (See also: The BB's "In My Room", or "Don't Worry, Baby"). But Parachutes, or A Rush of Blood to the Head will not make the Top 20 best records of all time list, 40 years from now. For as much as I adore their sound and sentiment, it's pretty basic stuff.
Wait a minute, girl27, even if I grant (though I don't) that I don't appreciate Pet Sounds because I haven't invested enough effort, I don't think you can say the same for old man Barlow upthread at 48, who is seriously into music (and is/was in a band?). Of course, this is mostly about matters of taste, so it doesn't make sense to argue, exactly...
I dig that you took the time to try on Pet Sounds, Ogged. I really do. But, like it or not, you don't seem to even begin to understand why it's such an important record.
As for Barlow, he didn't love it, but I think he'd probably understand it better, and could recognize the genius behind it. Where's that old thread, where you asked for music recommendations? I remember not knowing the majority of Barlow's suggestions. Yeah, it's about taste.
you don't seem to even begin to understand why it's such an important record
This is true, which is why I think you're all deluded (remember, 50 million people voted for Bush, so all "you're all deluded arguments" are again legitimate).
No, seriously, I don't get it at all. I am willing to listen though. So far, I've heard that it's danceable, that people like the lyrics, that the harmonies are great (I can hear that, I just don't like the voices doing them), and that the arrangments are cool (I can't speak to that; I'm not even sure I know what an "arrangement" is). Ok, those are good reasons. None of them make me thing "greatest album ever," but I can see why people like it.
What about Chopper's point about capturing in a sound recording, for the first time, what clinical depression really feels like? I think that that particular direct emotional connection was something that the record industry hadn't been either capable of or interested in before then. In a way, it's the first emo record. If you hate emo, you probably hate Pet Sounds.
I'm with John E that the BBs led to Reagan, but it was in spite of Pet Sounds, which at the time was "publicised" as a flop by Capitol records even though it sold a million. They hated it; the "Caroline No" single was attributed to Brian Wilson, not the BBs.
Oddly, Pet Sounds is by no means my favourite album - that's "Beach Boys Today" from the year before. Brilliant production on "Dance Dance Dance" - the sort of record the Beatles wanted to do but couldn't, and frighteningly clever melody in "Girl Don't Tell Me".
Pop music, of course, to last 40 years doesn't neccessarily make it more than just pop. But this blog doesn't really do art anyway, so that's not a problem, is it?
I wouldn't argue that they captured the feeling of depression for the first time. I might say they were the first to do so at LP length.
In terms of predecessors who certainly captured some of the feeling for a song or two, I'm thinking of Hank Williams. I'm sure there were Blues artists who did as well, although the music itself is often so rollicking that the whole piece together doesn't seem to capture the essence of what I'm thinking of.
That being said, I'm sure every depressive's experience is at least partially unique, so stating anything as a universal would be foolish (note the caveats in my original comment).
There you go. Billie Holiday is great, but I confess I don't know much of her stuff besides the Greatest Hits collection I haven't listened to in 5 years. Did she do an entire LP, consistent in tone with that song?
The site you linked specifically mentions "Songs for Young Lovers" as a preceding concept album (although not at 12"). I own SYL, but not ITWS. I'll have to check it out--I haven't listened to any Frank in a while.
I think you are missing the 'dance' factor.
I never really was a Beach Boy fan, but they were sure fun to dance to. They probably still are fun to dance to.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:38 PM
Mike Dickson, Scot, mellotron player, and avid user of X-No-Archive: Yes, would disagree in the most violent terms.
I like the Beach Boys.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:39 PM
And I hate dancing!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:39 PM
So what do you like about them?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:40 PM
Jesus Christ, ogged, you're dead inside. Pet Sounds is sheer tortured genius.
Everything else is candy (good, bad, and in-between, but candy) or failed attempts to recreate Pet Sounds. But that one album puts Brian Wilson in the pantheon.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:42 PM
The singing?
I should say that I'm only familiar with Pet Sounds and the new Smile.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:42 PM
See Chopper, that's the sentiment that I need explained. My reaction to Pet Sounds is, in short: Jesus Christ, turn off the mewling.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:45 PM
Next you're going to tell us that you can't abide the Partridge Family.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:47 PM
Is that a falsetto that Wilson sings in? Or is it called something else? Maybe that's it. I can't abide high-voiced male singing, unless the guy also sounds insane, like Clarence Ashley.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:48 PM
Purely from a technical standpoint, they do good harmony. So there's that.
Plus, Pet Sounds is a distillation of (post) adolescent angst. There's something worthwhile in that.
Even so, there's some serious instrumental mewling in e.g. "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times."
Without the Beach Boys, would we have Barenaked Ladies?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:50 PM
"I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" features, if not a theremin, at least a theremin-like instrument! (I think it's not a theremin, but a related instrument.)
Without the Beach Boys, would we have Barenaked Ladies?
*shudder*
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:53 PM
1) The singing
2) The sheer inventiveness in use of found sounds/non-traditional instruments (bicycle horns and bells, etc.)
3) The way the whole album works as an album. It's a mood piece.
4) The lyrics--my god the lyrics. I don't know if this is the case for others who have spent some portion of their lives dealing with chronic depression (much better at the moment, thanks), but that album captures perfectly what it feels like to be depressed and unsure of yourself.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:53 PM
5 is spot on. Ogged hates Texas and the Beach Boys. Who's next, my mother?
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:54 PM
Are there theremin-like instruments? I thought he was sawing on a rubber band with a violin bow.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:56 PM
Color me with ogged with regard to the Beach Boys. And Texas. But I really enjoyed the time I spent with Kriston's mother.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:56 PM
I also like the BBs, and hate dancing.
"Wouldn't it be nice" -- what's not to like about that song?
Can we infer,ogged, that you are true neither to your school nor to your girl?
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:57 PM
Others still, call him Kriston's father.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:58 PM
Man, SCMT, why'd you name a boy Kriston?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 2:59 PM
None call my dad Tim! They call him Ken.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:00 PM
I'm now going to listen to Pet Sounds on my iPod in protest of this sacrilege. I recommend that others do likewise. I refuse to defend the Beach Boys as I don't accept as a subsidiary premise that my own taste in music is particularly good.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:00 PM
Wouldn't it be nice is reasonably catchy, but I can only take about two minutes of that singing. Am I supposed to know some Beach Boys' lyrics to understand your question, baa? Is that fair? At least neither one of us likes jazz.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:00 PM
'Cause that's his name.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:00 PM
Hey, I made the obvious joke. Sue me. And I actually like the name, "Kriston." It has a Kal-El feel to it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:00 PM
Ken Capps is a cool name.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:01 PM
Boy, time-tags are essential.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:01 PM
Ah Kriston, just bustin' yer chops. The trouble I've had with my name over the years, I should know better than to be a dick about such things. (It's weird, and subject to misspellings and mispronunciations, not easily mistaken for another gender).
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:05 PM
23, That's funny. Some people actually kind of pronounce it like that. Kris-Ton (where "Ton" sounds like on not ton).
24, I'll let him know Ogged thinks so.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:05 PM
I dated a guy who liked both the Beach Boys and Wayne Newton, which made me rethink my superficial liking of BBs and why I ever liked that guy.
Posted by Judy Ocean | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:05 PM
go listen to "sloop john b" and then come back to amend your post, ogged.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:08 PM
Wayne Newton is ok.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:09 PM
Hey, ogged, are all the BB supporters' comments coming from the same IP address, and is it the the same one as the CF crowd?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:09 PM
Sloop John B is ok too, but the "aaaaaahhh" in the background still makes me want to scream.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:12 PM
WTF is the CF crowd?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:12 PM
Is that a falsetto that Wilson sings in? Or is it called something else? Maybe that's it. I can't abide high-voiced male singing
Would it help if you pretended they're castrati?
They're just very pretty songs, with some of the greatest harmonies ever recorded in pop music. I do like Smile better than Pet Sounds, though. And Wilson's parts also aren't sung in as high a register as his Beach Boys stuff -- maybe you should give it a try, Ogged
I am prepared to admit, however, that Van Dyke Parks' lyrics are, um, slightly overrated.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:14 PM
How do you feel about "hang on to your ego"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:14 PM
Chopper, here, with entertaining comments, many from the same person using different names.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:14 PM
Good Vibrations was all about the theremin.
I like the beach boys in small doses. Listening to "Pet Sounds" all the way through is a little much.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:16 PM
How do you feel about "hang on to your ego"?
Don't like it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:16 PM
Ah, I remember that now. All I could come up with was "Christian Fundamentalist," and Icouldn't remember anything of the sort.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:16 PM
They're just very pretty songs
Maybe this is it. Maybe I just don't like pretty songs.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:17 PM
OK, I *do* understand that a singer's voice can make otherwise acceptable music unlistenable. I find anything whatsoever by Rush excruciatingly painful to listen to (well, Geddy Lee's voice and the Randoidisms).
But let me ask you this, those of you who are haters: do you like pop in general? That is, pure cane sugar? Cuz for me, Pet Sounds is pretty much all that a pop album can be (well, except danceable). The pinnacle of the form. (Other examples, more recent: Skylarking by XTC, Sowing The Seeds of Love by Tears for Fears.)
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:29 PM
Good question. I don't know if the categories are simple, but I generally don't like what I take to be pop.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:31 PM
As in the thread linked in the post, you still don't seem to have articulated what you *do* like. Gangsta rap? Whatever that stuff Weiner and Wolfson like is called? Tibetan throat chanting?
All we've got is vague feelings about Wayne Newton, and if I recall correctly some indie-country-pop single.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:41 PM
There was this.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:43 PM
That's some pretty laid back shit.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:46 PM
Most of it is, isn't it?
Choppo, was the Tibetan remark a joke?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:51 PM
I remember that now. (It seems to be my day for saying that.)
I think if we were roommates (this being the test for musical compatibility--I'm not proposing anything here), we'd be able to find some common ground in the folk/country area, but you would get really fucking annoyed with the Pantera and Judas Priest, and I might have to punch you in the mouth every time Dave Mathews came on.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:51 PM
I hear you, Ogged. I only recently bought "Pet Sounds", egged on by all the "best album evar" recommendations and poll positions. And... it's pretty good. If I had no expectations, I'd probably say that it was pretty, not bad at all, better than most BB singles I've heard. But it wasn't even the best album I bought that day. (That was Andrew Bird's "The Mysterious Production of Eggs".)
Posted by Ted Barlow | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:51 PM
It was a joke in the same way that Gangsta rap was a joke. I thought unlikely but not impossible. I've heard a bit of that stuff, and it's kinda cool. My RA my sophomore year had taught himself to do it--really weird coming out of a white guys mouth.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:53 PM
That's a pretty saturnine playlist. Don't you ever play some music to angry up the blood? (Not that the Beach Boys would do that, I'm branching out.)
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:53 PM
I don't mind Pantera or Judas Priest; I don't get into it, in fact, I barely hear it--blends into the background.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:56 PM
Don't you ever play some music to angry up the blood?
There's the Pearl Jam, I guess, though I've heard Ten so many times it barely registers. And I have a bit of a soft spot for some Guns n' Roses.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 3:59 PM
Oh, there's also some Soundgarden that I like. God, I haven't heard music like that in so long. I don't even know what's similar.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:02 PM
Soundgarden was my favorite band for about 5 years. But if the Soundgarden you like is from after Badmotorfinger, we'd have problems. GNFR rules.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:04 PM
I don't mind Pantera or Judas Priest; I don't get into it, in fact, I barely hear it--blends into the background.
Not if it's played at the proper volume, it doesn't.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:05 PM
This thread has gotten beyond me. Ogged clarifies usefully when he decries "pretty songs" and jazz. Some people hear Death Cab for Cutie and think 'genius'; other think 'could this rock any less?' Ogged, I'll bet, is the latter. Chopper, I fear you and ogged a separed by a musical chasm.
Ogged, that was a reference to "Be True to Your School"
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:07 PM
baa--I think you're correct. I'm fairly omnivorous--I like certain jazz, old (pre-1980) country, alt-country, metal, punk, post-punk, some industrial (pre-1995 or so), some techno, the pop stuff mentioned elsewhere in this thread, some hip-hop. ogged doesn't seem limited, exactly, in his tastes, but our areas of overlap are very few.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:16 PM
Barbara Anne.
Yes, I do like the Beatles.
It also helps to be able to hear music in the context of its time, both socially and in terms of musical history; it's difficult to understand or appreciate how revolutionary music (or anything else) can have been without such perspective. Not, of course, that that's a reason anyone should "like" it; it might, however, be a reason to not simply have no respect for it, or to understand why other people might have different reactions.
Of course, my opinions about music are worth what you pay for them.
Posted by Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:20 PM
Chopper is Indie Mainstream, subtype C.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 4:49 PM
I'm okay with listening to Pet Sounds, but I don't think I'd ever choose it to put on the turntable myself. As with ogged, the voice does put me off. But even without that, I truly don't understand the reverence a significant portion of people display towards this album. It's fine, nothing wrong with it, but also not particularly compelling to me. And I like the Beatles and plenty of poppy stuff.
At some point during my long China sojourn, I was back stateside for a trip and at a gathering full of Austin hepcats. Everyone was raving about the new Flaming Lips album (I'm pretty sure it was The Soft Bulletin) that was playing and comparing it to Pet Sounds. And I thought something along the lines of, "Wow, I don't find The Flips particularly compelling either. What the fuck is wrong with all these people???" Alas, the world has an annoying habit of not listening to me.
Notwithstanding all of the above, I would really love to hear (but only once) a Beach Boys cover of either "Walk Like a Man" or "Big Girls Don't Cry" or "Sherry" (as done originally by The Four Seasons, with Frankie Valli flexing his castrato chops).
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:30 PM
You've been to China?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:32 PM
Where've you been, ogged?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:40 PM
AMTF.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:41 PM
I'm better than you are, ogged.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:42 PM
And you've got the rest of your life to prove it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:44 PM
Chopper is Indie Mainstream, subtype C.
And Wolfson is Snooty Jazz Twat, Type A.
...
Labels are fun!
I think of myself as a smalltown metalhead who has broadened his horizons over the years. Who really, really hates Dave Matthews. Like fingernails on a chalkboard. (And, all kidding around, I'm not judging ogged for his taste or lack thereof, the same for WOlfosn, SCMT, et al.).
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:54 PM
You've been to China?
Heh. I put in the China reference as a way signifying that for almost six years I had only a very tenuous link to what was being listened to (or watched, read, etc.) here in the States. There's this huge hole in my familiarity with popular culture during the 1995-2000 period.
Of course as soon as I hit Post I thought, "Oh no, I done went and mentioned China again. Shit!"
But then I guess everyone has to have their own little bit of flair.
And I know some people who think blathering on about China all the time is quite becoming.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:55 PM
BTW, if you're looking for intelligent music reviews from the perspective of a russian who loves 60's pop music I strongly recommend browsing the archive of George Starostin's site.
At the very least his manifesto is fantastic.
Posted by NickS | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 5:59 PM
I know some people who think blathering on about China all the time is quite becoming.
The Japanese, for instance.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 6:02 PM
Back in the '80s when I was in college my room mate and I could only agree on one album that we both liked. Squeeze.
He was a big league dead head, and Floyd fan. I've learned to appreciate the former, still have trouble with the latter. But by mid terms we both hated Squeeze. Passionately.
I haven't really gotten into pet sounds myself.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 6:21 PM
The lyrics and singing suck, but the suckiness is kinda ok (it goes with it a bit), but the orchestration is cool.
Now Nico w/ the Velvet Underground, THERE'S a bad singer who ends up sounding really good. Although, sometimes she overdoes it (since when does anyone pronounce 'clown' as 'clon').
Posted by Andrew | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 8:47 PM
If we can't make you understand the Beatles, you're surely never going to understand Pet Sounds. The Beatles say they owe Sgt Pepper to Brian Wilson; The Beach Boys say they owe Pet Sounds to Lennon/McCartney. The production was virtually unparalelled for its time. The orchestration and arrangments are outstanding.
Folks who don't spend a great deal of time and effort listening to music find it hard to get past lyrics and vocal style. Records like Pet Sounds were pop hits in their day, because of the lyrics... or, maybe because it's great stuff to dance to. But 40 years later, it's the best album EVER, because the rest of it stands the test of time.
Take Coldplay. The world loves Coldplay for the same reason they loved the Beach Boys. The songs are easy to listen to, and everyone feels like it could have been written about them. There's comfort in that. (See also: The BB's "In My Room", or "Don't Worry, Baby"). But Parachutes, or A Rush of Blood to the Head will not make the Top 20 best records of all time list, 40 years from now. For as much as I adore their sound and sentiment, it's pretty basic stuff.
Posted by girl27 | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 9:32 PM
Nico sounds pretty good as a singer on her second through fourth solo albums.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 9:57 PM
Wait a minute, girl27, even if I grant (though I don't) that I don't appreciate Pet Sounds because I haven't invested enough effort, I don't think you can say the same for old man Barlow upthread at 48, who is seriously into music (and is/was in a band?). Of course, this is mostly about matters of taste, so it doesn't make sense to argue, exactly...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 10:07 PM
I dig that you took the time to try on Pet Sounds, Ogged. I really do. But, like it or not, you don't seem to even begin to understand why it's such an important record.
As for Barlow, he didn't love it, but I think he'd probably understand it better, and could recognize the genius behind it. Where's that old thread, where you asked for music recommendations? I remember not knowing the majority of Barlow's suggestions. Yeah, it's about taste.
Posted by girl27 | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 10:23 PM
you don't seem to even begin to understand why it's such an important record
This is true, which is why I think you're all deluded (remember, 50 million people voted for Bush, so all "you're all deluded arguments" are again legitimate).
No, seriously, I don't get it at all. I am willing to listen though. So far, I've heard that it's danceable, that people like the lyrics, that the harmonies are great (I can hear that, I just don't like the voices doing them), and that the arrangments are cool (I can't speak to that; I'm not even sure I know what an "arrangement" is). Ok, those are good reasons. None of them make me thing "greatest album ever," but I can see why people like it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05-27-05 10:27 PM
I agree that the Beach Boys were responsible for the Republican takeover, starting with Reagan.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-28-05 1:12 PM
What about Chopper's point about capturing in a sound recording, for the first time, what clinical depression really feels like? I think that that particular direct emotional connection was something that the record industry hadn't been either capable of or interested in before then. In a way, it's the first emo record. If you hate emo, you probably hate Pet Sounds.
Posted by andrew | Link to this comment | 05-28-05 5:21 PM
I'm with John E that the BBs led to Reagan, but it was in spite of Pet Sounds, which at the time was "publicised" as a flop by Capitol records even though it sold a million. They hated it; the "Caroline No" single was attributed to Brian Wilson, not the BBs.
Oddly, Pet Sounds is by no means my favourite album - that's "Beach Boys Today" from the year before. Brilliant production on "Dance Dance Dance" - the sort of record the Beatles wanted to do but couldn't, and frighteningly clever melody in "Girl Don't Tell Me".
Pop music, of course, to last 40 years doesn't neccessarily make it more than just pop. But this blog doesn't really do art anyway, so that's not a problem, is it?
Posted by dave heasman | Link to this comment | 05-28-05 5:53 PM
Folks who don't spend a great deal of time and effort listening to music find it hard to get past lyrics and vocal style.
Um, awfully presumptuous, no?
What about Chopper's point about capturing in a sound recording, for the first time, what clinical depression really feels like?
(emphasis added)
That's a pretty bold statement, and almost certainly false.
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 05-28-05 6:33 PM
I wouldn't argue that they captured the feeling of depression for the first time. I might say they were the first to do so at LP length.
In terms of predecessors who certainly captured some of the feeling for a song or two, I'm thinking of Hank Williams. I'm sure there were Blues artists who did as well, although the music itself is often so rollicking that the whole piece together doesn't seem to capture the essence of what I'm thinking of.
That being said, I'm sure every depressive's experience is at least partially unique, so stating anything as a universal would be foolish (note the caveats in my original comment).
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:32 PM
I wouldn't argue that they captured the feeling of depression for the first time. I might say they were the first to do so at LP length.
I get along without you very well ... of course I do.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:33 PM
There you go. Billie Holiday is great, but I confess I don't know much of her stuff besides the Greatest Hits collection I haven't listened to in 5 years. Did she do an entire LP, consistent in tone with that song?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:37 PM
I remember reading that they banned Gloomy Sunday from the radio because they were afraid it would lead to suicides.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:45 PM
I was thinking of the Sinatra LP, commonly referred to as the first concept album.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:47 PM
The site you linked specifically mentions "Songs for Young Lovers" as a preceding concept album (although not at 12"). I own SYL, but not ITWS. I'll have to check it out--I haven't listened to any Frank in a while.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 1:54 PM
That's true. Nevertheless I swear I see ITWS cited frequently. Oh well.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06- 1-05 2:08 PM
Ogged, you'll be happy to know that David Thorpe—who is, like, a Dr. and a NASA scientist—agrees with you on Pet Sounds.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06- 9-05 11:49 AM