Here is my first hand advice - check the lay of the land. Specifically, avoid the house that is on the lowest lot in the neighborhood.
Water flows downhill, and you do not want water trouble. Don't listen if they say it has been fixed by a beaver system or some other drainage process. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't, but why risk the hassle?
If you do buy the house against your better instincts and get lucky about water you are still going to have trouble when selling it because future buyers will have the same water concern you had.
"But, but, there are disclosure requirements in my state," you may say. "The owner has to disclose any water problems."
Realistically this is not enforceable because the Spring after you buy the house and now have water in the basement the sellers will simply claim they never had water problems, it started with you, and how are you going to prove otherwise?
Find a good agent. -Not- someone who wants to be your best friend. -Not- someone who informs you that buying a home is going to be a 'learning experience'. Someone with experience, who is full-time, who knows the business, and preferably, someone who specializes in first-timers. Talk to more than one-- and if you feel uncomfortable with one you're talking to, look again.
For me, the whole process took a year, from deciding to do it to being moved in to a new home.
I agree with all of the above. I read Home Buying for Dummies, which I found useful. Finding a good agent and mortgage broker is key. When I was looking a few years ago, the market in my area was pretty hot, and it was vital to see houses the first day they came on the market.
Also, if my experience is any indication, when you start looking you'll probably have a number in mind for the absolute, final, drop-dead maximum amount you can possibly afford. (This will probably be less than what you get pre-approved for; it's amazing how much money people will let you borrow.) Be prepared to pay at least 20% more than that once you actually find a house.
This is pretty general as advice goes, but you want to be thinking of this as a place to live, not as an investment. Housing prices may keep going up forever, but you really don't want to count on that -- buy something that you're pretty sure you're going to want to be living in for at least five years or so, rather than counting on being able to flip it at a profit.
Also, if you're used to apartment living, budget much more than you'd think for house maintenance. I've never owned a house, rather than an apartment, but everyone I know who's made that transition has wildly underestimated what they needed to spend to keep the place in decent repair, and spent the ensuing year complaining about it.
LB, I'm not sure I understand your meaning re: maintenance. Are you saying that the upkeep is more expensive because it's a house or because there's no landlord or super? I rent a house and don't find upkeep much more expensive than apartments I've lived in; just wondering whether I'm failing to clean some key part of my home.
I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but I found it was things you'd normally call a landlord to fix. When your water heater dies or a pipe breaks or the AC goes kaput, I was staggered at what it cost to have somebody come out and just look at it, before they ever started fixing anything.
For me, the big issue with maintenance is unpredictability and uneven distribution of expense. When I rented, I knew what the bills would be; with ownership, it's often a surprise. I put aside about 2.5% of the house's value per year for maintenance, but sometimes-- say, when you discover a roof leak that's hard to diagnose-- demand will outstrip supply.
I bought a home warranty, which softens the blow of some of the big problems (furnace, plumbing, etc.). I haven't really used it, but I sleep a little easier.
Just as the "I glue insects" post was really a ploy to blackmail us, this is a ploy to get us to reveal our neuroses.
I bought a co-op in New York which is a whole different kettle of fish than a house, but in terms of figuring out how much I could afford and quick reference, the Freddie Mac site was extremely helpful.
They have little calculators where you can plug in your income, the price of the house, and your projected interest rate to see what your monthly expenses will be. I used this relentlessly, and in the end it helped me decide that buying the least expensive (and smallest) apartment I could find was going to be the best for me. (I don't have space to buy any new furniture but my maintenance plus mortgage is under $1000.) They also have other considerations about houses buying and helpful definitions etc.
What apostropher and FL said: all of the leaking roof, frozen pipe, water-in-the-basement kind of stuff seems to add up to a surprisingly large, and unpredictable, amount of money. I'm just going on what people complain about rather than personal knowledge -- I rented an apartment until I bought my current co-op, so I've never done anything about home repairs other than call the super.
With repairs, I find it's not the expense, generally, but the time that's the killer.
For example, about three weeks ago my wife was taking a bath, and I heard her say "uh-oh" in a tone that made it clear that something serious had happened. It turns out that one of the tiles had come off one wall, and there was nothing behind the tile. Thirty years ago when the wall was built, the tile had been attached to dry wall which, due to time and moisture, had crumbled. So over the past two weeks we've torn out the old tile and wall down to the studs, replaced everything and re-tiled it ourselves. Probably about 30-40 person-hours of work.
Total cost was about $200, so I consider this a very cheap repair, which I guess reinforces LB's point.
My preference is for a condo, precisely because buying a home seems so much like adding an unstable personality to one's life. Are there compelling reasons *not* to get a condo or co-op?
Well, a condo has the same 'capital expense and maintenance' problems as a single-family home, except you have even less control over them. If these costs aren't dealt with, you can have a big problem.
The condo owns the 'common' areas (everything but the interiors of the apartments), and a -good- condo will put aside reserves and do capital maintenance, thereby increasing the cost to you in the short run. A -bad- condo will save you money in the short run, but then you get hit with a big assessment or fee increase for capital expenses.
Also, historically, the value of a condo appreciates less than the value of a single-family home, though that hasn't been true in the last few years.
I think that some of the commenters here have identified a key step--while in the purchasing process, get a home inspection done, and make sure the inspector has a good reputation--check references if you can.
Our inspector found the one real problem in our house (a leaky roof in our dining room--it's an additon with a flat (rolled) roof). He also told us how to make the quick fix that would get us by for a couple years (which I ignored, and wound up chipping ice dams for two hours in an emegency attempt to get all the pooling water off my roof before it destroyed the ceiling in my dining room). Have the inspector look at rhe foundation, the wiring and the plumbing, and if you can see the floor joists in the basement, make sure there's no real bowing or other structural problems.
I'd suggest not buying a house with a roof more than 5 years old--who needs the hassle? Friends of mine bought a house with an old roof and wound up having to drop 14 grand at the drop of a hat (fortunately, they'd had the good sense to negotiate the price of the house down $20 grand, but scraping up that much money at the drop of a hat wasn't easy).
If you're buying a house that could potentially accomodate two people at some point in the future, try to find someplace that offers two off-street parking spaces. I get tickets a couple times a year for not moving my car fast enough for snow plowing or street cleaning.
Another key thing to pay attention to is amenities. We have a small city park a block from our house. There a few "ethnic" restaurants about 5 blocks away (1 Turkish, 2 Korean). Everything else? Over a mile--grocery stores, Target, shopping, etc. It's a tiny bit of a pain.
Oh, and if the house you're looking at purchasing is anywhere near a rail yard, consider swinging by the house in the middle of the night to see what the noise situation is like. (It doesn't really bother me--the house I grew up in was less than a block from train tracks, but I worry about resale value.)
Most people will recommend a condo rather than a co-op, because co-ops are run by the tenants and can often develop nasty and intrusive politics. I think they're very rare outside of NY, where there's some historical or local law reason for their being common (I don't actually know what that reason is).
With a condo, all you really need to worry about is the stability of the management company. They're taking the fix-it role of the landlord, and if they're just pocketing your maintenance payments and not doing a good job on upkeep, then you find yourself with a run-down property, you're unhappy, you can't move as easily as you could with a rental landlord, and your resale value goes down. This isn't a huge problem, you just want to make sure that you look at the financials, talk to other tenants, get the realtor's perspective, etc., before you buy.
I didn't really have the option to buy a house, (seeing as my blog persona depends on me living in the city and they don't have houses here. But that said, I love having a co-op. And if I could have afforded it, I would probably love having a condo even more.) Not worrying about the boiler or the insulation or the rook is super cool. Even when my range broke, my super came and looked at it for me, even though he couldn't really help me beyond that. Anything that happens outside of the walls is not your responsibility, which means you have less to worry about. Now, co-ops have some peculiarities that you have to keep an eye on, what is the character of the co-op board, what are the restrictions on renovations and subletting, how much does the maintenance cost. (Actually, you do pay for maintenance, but its a fixed rate every month, so you don't have as many astronomical costs to plan for.) Also the co-op board approval process caan throw off the timing of locking in on loans and closing, so careful planning is important. There are lots of nightmare stories of being declined by the co-op board, but I didn't have any problem at all, partly because I bought an apartment I could really afford. Condos generally have less restrictions, but still important to check on them.
I've never owned a condo, precisely because it seems to me to combine all the disadvantages of owning a home with all the disadvantages of renting an apartment.
Oh, I live in a co-op and love it. Our board is cool and low-key, and the super is the second generation of his family to run the building (his dad was the super, after his dad died his mom took over, and then when Tony got old enough his mom retired.). Things run like clockwork, the finances are in good shape, and we don't need to concern ourselves with any of it. The nasty politics thing is just something people worry about, not an inevitability.
I've been leery of condos over the years, largely because in my area they're mainly in purpose-built condo buildings (row houses, really), and the stories I've heard have indicated that construction standards are not the highest (shoddy drywall, poor window installation (a househunting friend actually saw *daylight* between window and wall in a unit he looked at). If you're looking at an older building, e.g. a warehouse buildout, or a building that has been a condo for may years with a solid track record of resident satisfaction in terms of housing quality, I'd say a condo isn't a bad option.
The tradeoff on home maintenance is between the big cost of paying someone else to do it versus the big time commitment and hassle to do it yourself.
I think everyone draws the line wherever they feel comfortable.
For example, I figure I saved about 200 bucks once but it took a whole evening to find out what was clogging my kid's toilet. A toothbrush was caught in the trap. I had to completely remove the bowl and turn it upside down to find the culprit.
Supposedly nobody knows how that toothbrush got in there. Uh huh.
I could see the draw of a condo if I was single. While you may not get huge appreciation, at least you'll start building equity. Houses do come with headaches, and I don't know if I'd want them by myself. That said, I love my old house and I've loved fixing it up.
One word: Cohousing, my friend. The joys of communal living. Your pain would be your blog's gain.
Oh, some practical things. We used the book: 100 questions every first time home owner should ask. It helped being ready for the inordinate amount of paperwork and documentation required for financing and closing on a house.
The rule of thumb I've heard is that land is an appreciating asset and the building/house is a depreciating asset. The WSJ once said to count on 10% of the value of your house every year in maintenance, ,but it's a bear to separate house and land values (for instance, the replacement cost of our old house is much more than the total property cost). FL's 2.5% of total value sounds like a reasonable minimum.
When you buy a condo you get less of the first (land) and more of the second (building). Don't think you're not paying for that depreciation, it's just in predictable increments and someone else does most of the work.
I naively looked at a cohousing community where I'm moving. Even when they really wanted to sell their property, the people there couldn't resist bitching about each other. It was ugly and I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
For god's sake, wait a year or two until the bubble bursts. Home prices today are where dotcom stocks were in late 1999, about to fall off a cliff. Eve if you aren't buying to get rich, you don't have to buy at a moment that will make you poor. You'll get 30% more house for your money if you hold off a year.
I'd suggest not buying a house with a roof more than 5 years old
Sigh. I made this mistake and will have to put a new roof on my house some time in next two or three years - a process that will involve removing all the solar panels first, then re-installing after. I was blinded by how much I like the rest of the house and didn't consider just how much expense that would be before I could resell it. I'm half-hoping for a tree to fall on it so my insurance company can buy a new roof for me.
Another factor that is either a plus or minus depending on your preferences: yardwork. I bought a house on a lot with a fair amount of natural area, but after clearing out one area that was being overtaken by brush, I now have to go back and try to eliminate the field of poison ivy and Japanese stilt grass that came up in its stead.
I've always thought co-housing sounded kind of nice. I just got back from a reunion of the hippie co-op I lived in in college, and I loved living in that place. Communal meals that you only had to cook once every few weeks, a very reasonable amount of time invested in keeping the place running, and lots of pleasant people around to spend time with.
Of course, it was college, so everyone's privacy needs and general expectations were pretty low, and it would depend heavily on the people you lived with.
Yes, I'm worried about this. But, like I say, this is just the seed of a thought. It will take quite some time before I'm ready to make a serious offer anywhere.
yardwork
Right. No interest. None. One reason a condo sounds good.
LB, I lived in something similar in college, which is probably why I also was attracted to co-housing.
This one group seemed particularly bad. That being said, I also decided that if I was going to live in intentional community I'd like it to choose the group carefully. At this stage in life, I just don't feel like I have the energy for significant politics related to my neighbors. I've got enough to worry about.
That said, if you're living in a city co-op you may be half way there already.
No interest in yardwork, ogged? You could grow your own vegetables, start an herb garden, maybe get a fruit-bearing tree going! You could make jams, jellies, preserves, liqueurs and ratafias, and indulge in countless food-related domestic rituals that seem charming and fun now that they're wholly optional!
That said, if you're living in a city co-op you may be half way there already.
Not so much. It feels like renting, except that I know that if I get too dissatisfied with the 'landlord'/board, I can try to stage a coup. While it's pretty friendly for an apartment building, it's nothing like communal living.
Yes I would second LB. Co-ops and cohousing are two veeeery different animals. And to stage a coup on the co-op board, what a hassle! I've know people that ended up selling out way early because of the subletting rules.
I looked at a co-housing intentional community when I was house-hunting. The houses were gorgeous and stuck out in the woods over a river. Almost ideal, really. But then the hermit in me (which is much more pronounced than you might guess from my presence here) came to his senses and started screaming, "NO NO NO NO NO NO!"
I don't want to have to do more than wave to my neighbors, and a weekly meeting plus tending the communal vegetable garden was way beyond that.
domestic rituals that seem charming and fun now that they're wholly optional!
Spot on. Gardens are the new black. I'm starting down this green branch of the yuppy path, and terrifying as it is, I can't help myself. We actually rescheduled a party we're throwing to give us more time to set up the back yard.
Or you can do what we do, which is mow the lawn evey couple of weeks, and blithely ignore pointed comments from the neighbors about our Creeping Charlie problem.
That said, this year: landscaping to make up for the past 3+ years of neglect. Shit has to go, yo.
If you start making your own jam, Ogged, I'll find you and kill you.
This should at least provide more fodder for the 'worst thing you've ever done' thread. Although I'm not sure if ogged would really consider making jam worse than hurting a caterpillar.
1. Get your short-term debt in shape, because you'll need the cushion once you own and lenders look hard at it.
2. Precisely contradictory -- save up for a down payment. If you have parents, a trust fund, anything that can contribute to you borrowing only 80% of value, your mortgage rate will be much lower. the day after you close, you can then get a HELOC -- home equity line of credit -- which is tax deductible up to the first 100K.
3. Budget, budget, budget. New homes are money sinks, even if its just new furniture.
4. Spend a lot of time looking at open houses. How do other people who own live? what do you like about their houses? what do you hate? Develop your own taste before you hire a broker.
5. Spend a lot of time walking/driving target neighborhoods. You're making a multi=year commitment, so be happy with your choice.
6. If you go into multi-unit housing (condo, coop, even a planned unit development), do careful due diligence on the powers of the boards and their history of operation. Read the CC&Rs (covenants, conditions and restrictions) carefully. Insist on reviewing Board minutes and correspondence. Talk to the management company. If you don't get clear answers, walk away. If you don't understand what people are telling you, consider hiring a lawyer. Call your local and/or state bar association to get recommendations. I can't emphasize this point strongly enough; the moment you buy anything other than a single family residence, other people will have the power to reach inside your house and make your life miserable. BE CAREFUL.
The word that most obviously completes the question, If Ogged flogged his Ogged-jam on his blog, would that be so …, is "wrong". But the prosody leads — nay, compels! — the reader to substitute the non-word "wrog" instead. The humor springs from the tension between serving content and serving form.
That Barthes essay is awful, all the evidence is about how there things important other than authorial intent, and then somehow he concludes that authorial intent is meaningless. It's crap.
I suppose this "cookies" business concerns the nameless post by possibly-Tripp. But how do we know anything of possibly-Tripp's cache habits? He could be purging it right now, or filling it, for that matter, and no one would know. Unless he posts more quickly with a loaded cache. Then we would know.
Drat, I wish the comment poster thing would catch a blank Name field.
Old habits die hard regarding cache and cookies and posting and paranoia. And, as apostropher (who knows me oh so well) has stated, there is the matter of my girlish figure that must be preserved.
But, really, doesn't the whole point of life boil down to a simple filling and purging of one's cache?
It is my cache and I'll purge it as slowly as I like.
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 5:46 AM
Here is my first hand advice - check the lay of the land. Specifically, avoid the house that is on the lowest lot in the neighborhood.
Water flows downhill, and you do not want water trouble. Don't listen if they say it has been fixed by a beaver system or some other drainage process. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't, but why risk the hassle?
If you do buy the house against your better instincts and get lucky about water you are still going to have trouble when selling it because future buyers will have the same water concern you had.
"But, but, there are disclosure requirements in my state," you may say. "The owner has to disclose any water problems."
Realistically this is not enforceable because the Spring after you buy the house and now have water in the basement the sellers will simply claim they never had water problems, it started with you, and how are you going to prove otherwise?
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 5:54 AM
Find a good agent. -Not- someone who wants to be your best friend. -Not- someone who informs you that buying a home is going to be a 'learning experience'. Someone with experience, who is full-time, who knows the business, and preferably, someone who specializes in first-timers. Talk to more than one-- and if you feel uncomfortable with one you're talking to, look again.
For me, the whole process took a year, from deciding to do it to being moved in to a new home.
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:02 AM
I agree with all of the above. I read Home Buying for Dummies, which I found useful. Finding a good agent and mortgage broker is key. When I was looking a few years ago, the market in my area was pretty hot, and it was vital to see houses the first day they came on the market.
Also, if my experience is any indication, when you start looking you'll probably have a number in mind for the absolute, final, drop-dead maximum amount you can possibly afford. (This will probably be less than what you get pre-approved for; it's amazing how much money people will let you borrow.) Be prepared to pay at least 20% more than that once you actually find a house.
Posted by A. Random Physicist | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:26 AM
This is pretty general as advice goes, but you want to be thinking of this as a place to live, not as an investment. Housing prices may keep going up forever, but you really don't want to count on that -- buy something that you're pretty sure you're going to want to be living in for at least five years or so, rather than counting on being able to flip it at a profit.
Also, if you're used to apartment living, budget much more than you'd think for house maintenance. I've never owned a house, rather than an apartment, but everyone I know who's made that transition has wildly underestimated what they needed to spend to keep the place in decent repair, and spent the ensuing year complaining about it.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:37 AM
wildly underestimated what they needed to spend to keep the place in decent repair
You. Will. Be. Shocked.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:40 AM
LB, I'm not sure I understand your meaning re: maintenance. Are you saying that the upkeep is more expensive because it's a house or because there's no landlord or super? I rent a house and don't find upkeep much more expensive than apartments I've lived in; just wondering whether I'm failing to clean some key part of my home.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:42 AM
I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but I found it was things you'd normally call a landlord to fix. When your water heater dies or a pipe breaks or the AC goes kaput, I was staggered at what it cost to have somebody come out and just look at it, before they ever started fixing anything.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:45 AM
For me, the big issue with maintenance is unpredictability and uneven distribution of expense. When I rented, I knew what the bills would be; with ownership, it's often a surprise. I put aside about 2.5% of the house's value per year for maintenance, but sometimes-- say, when you discover a roof leak that's hard to diagnose-- demand will outstrip supply.
I bought a home warranty, which softens the blow of some of the big problems (furnace, plumbing, etc.). I haven't really used it, but I sleep a little easier.
Just as the "I glue insects" post was really a ploy to blackmail us, this is a ploy to get us to reveal our neuroses.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:48 AM
I bought a co-op in New York which is a whole different kettle of fish than a house, but in terms of figuring out how much I could afford and quick reference, the Freddie Mac site was extremely helpful.
http://www.freddiemac.com/corporate/buyown/english/calcs_tools/index.html
They have little calculators where you can plug in your income, the price of the house, and your projected interest rate to see what your monthly expenses will be. I used this relentlessly, and in the end it helped me decide that buying the least expensive (and smallest) apartment I could find was going to be the best for me. (I don't have space to buy any new furniture but my maintenance plus mortgage is under $1000.) They also have other considerations about houses buying and helpful definitions etc.
Posted by Claudia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:52 AM
That reminds me-- the mortgage professor can help.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 6:53 AM
Argh. Long comment disappeared. I'll try again later.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:09 AM
What apostropher and FL said: all of the leaking roof, frozen pipe, water-in-the-basement kind of stuff seems to add up to a surprisingly large, and unpredictable, amount of money. I'm just going on what people complain about rather than personal knowledge -- I rented an apartment until I bought my current co-op, so I've never done anything about home repairs other than call the super.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:12 AM
With repairs, I find it's not the expense, generally, but the time that's the killer.
For example, about three weeks ago my wife was taking a bath, and I heard her say "uh-oh" in a tone that made it clear that something serious had happened. It turns out that one of the tiles had come off one wall, and there was nothing behind the tile. Thirty years ago when the wall was built, the tile had been attached to dry wall which, due to time and moisture, had crumbled. So over the past two weeks we've torn out the old tile and wall down to the studs, replaced everything and re-tiled it ourselves. Probably about 30-40 person-hours of work.
Total cost was about $200, so I consider this a very cheap repair, which I guess reinforces LB's point.
Posted by A. Random Physicist | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:18 AM
My preference is for a condo, precisely because buying a home seems so much like adding an unstable personality to one's life. Are there compelling reasons *not* to get a condo or co-op?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:30 AM
Becase sharing walls with strangers can add an unstable personality to your life.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:41 AM
Becase=because, obviously.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:41 AM
Well, a condo has the same 'capital expense and maintenance' problems as a single-family home, except you have even less control over them. If these costs aren't dealt with, you can have a big problem.
The condo owns the 'common' areas (everything but the interiors of the apartments), and a -good- condo will put aside reserves and do capital maintenance, thereby increasing the cost to you in the short run. A -bad- condo will save you money in the short run, but then you get hit with a big assessment or fee increase for capital expenses.
Also, historically, the value of a condo appreciates less than the value of a single-family home, though that hasn't been true in the last few years.
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:43 AM
I think that some of the commenters here have identified a key step--while in the purchasing process, get a home inspection done, and make sure the inspector has a good reputation--check references if you can.
Our inspector found the one real problem in our house (a leaky roof in our dining room--it's an additon with a flat (rolled) roof). He also told us how to make the quick fix that would get us by for a couple years (which I ignored, and wound up chipping ice dams for two hours in an emegency attempt to get all the pooling water off my roof before it destroyed the ceiling in my dining room). Have the inspector look at rhe foundation, the wiring and the plumbing, and if you can see the floor joists in the basement, make sure there's no real bowing or other structural problems.
I'd suggest not buying a house with a roof more than 5 years old--who needs the hassle? Friends of mine bought a house with an old roof and wound up having to drop 14 grand at the drop of a hat (fortunately, they'd had the good sense to negotiate the price of the house down $20 grand, but scraping up that much money at the drop of a hat wasn't easy).
If you're buying a house that could potentially accomodate two people at some point in the future, try to find someplace that offers two off-street parking spaces. I get tickets a couple times a year for not moving my car fast enough for snow plowing or street cleaning.
Another key thing to pay attention to is amenities. We have a small city park a block from our house. There a few "ethnic" restaurants about 5 blocks away (1 Turkish, 2 Korean). Everything else? Over a mile--grocery stores, Target, shopping, etc. It's a tiny bit of a pain.
Oh, and if the house you're looking at purchasing is anywhere near a rail yard, consider swinging by the house in the middle of the night to see what the noise situation is like. (It doesn't really bother me--the house I grew up in was less than a block from train tracks, but I worry about resale value.)
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:46 AM
Most people will recommend a condo rather than a co-op, because co-ops are run by the tenants and can often develop nasty and intrusive politics. I think they're very rare outside of NY, where there's some historical or local law reason for their being common (I don't actually know what that reason is).
With a condo, all you really need to worry about is the stability of the management company. They're taking the fix-it role of the landlord, and if they're just pocketing your maintenance payments and not doing a good job on upkeep, then you find yourself with a run-down property, you're unhappy, you can't move as easily as you could with a rental landlord, and your resale value goes down. This isn't a huge problem, you just want to make sure that you look at the financials, talk to other tenants, get the realtor's perspective, etc., before you buy.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:47 AM
I didn't really have the option to buy a house, (seeing as my blog persona depends on me living in the city and they don't have houses here. But that said, I love having a co-op. And if I could have afforded it, I would probably love having a condo even more.) Not worrying about the boiler or the insulation or the rook is super cool. Even when my range broke, my super came and looked at it for me, even though he couldn't really help me beyond that. Anything that happens outside of the walls is not your responsibility, which means you have less to worry about. Now, co-ops have some peculiarities that you have to keep an eye on, what is the character of the co-op board, what are the restrictions on renovations and subletting, how much does the maintenance cost. (Actually, you do pay for maintenance, but its a fixed rate every month, so you don't have as many astronomical costs to plan for.) Also the co-op board approval process caan throw off the timing of locking in on loans and closing, so careful planning is important. There are lots of nightmare stories of being declined by the co-op board, but I didn't have any problem at all, partly because I bought an apartment I could really afford. Condos generally have less restrictions, but still important to check on them.
Posted by Claudia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:47 AM
I've never owned a condo, precisely because it seems to me to combine all the disadvantages of owning a home with all the disadvantages of renting an apartment.
Posted by A. Random Physicist | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:47 AM
Oh, I live in a co-op and love it. Our board is cool and low-key, and the super is the second generation of his family to run the building (his dad was the super, after his dad died his mom took over, and then when Tony got old enough his mom retired.). Things run like clockwork, the finances are in good shape, and we don't need to concern ourselves with any of it. The nasty politics thing is just something people worry about, not an inevitability.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:53 AM
I've been leery of condos over the years, largely because in my area they're mainly in purpose-built condo buildings (row houses, really), and the stories I've heard have indicated that construction standards are not the highest (shoddy drywall, poor window installation (a househunting friend actually saw *daylight* between window and wall in a unit he looked at). If you're looking at an older building, e.g. a warehouse buildout, or a building that has been a condo for may years with a solid track record of resident satisfaction in terms of housing quality, I'd say a condo isn't a bad option.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:59 AM
A.,
The tradeoff on home maintenance is between the big cost of paying someone else to do it versus the big time commitment and hassle to do it yourself.
I think everyone draws the line wherever they feel comfortable.
For example, I figure I saved about 200 bucks once but it took a whole evening to find out what was clogging my kid's toilet. A toothbrush was caught in the trap. I had to completely remove the bowl and turn it upside down to find the culprit.
Supposedly nobody knows how that toothbrush got in there. Uh huh.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:59 AM
I don't want to stop the discussion at all, but just to interject to say that this is fantastically helpful, and thanks.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:03 AM
I could see the draw of a condo if I was single. While you may not get huge appreciation, at least you'll start building equity. Houses do come with headaches, and I don't know if I'd want them by myself. That said, I love my old house and I've loved fixing it up.
One word: Cohousing, my friend. The joys of communal living. Your pain would be your blog's gain.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:03 AM
I don't think they'd let me blog from prison, after I killed every single human in my co-house.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:07 AM
Oh, some practical things. We used the book: 100 questions every first time home owner should ask. It helped being ready for the inordinate amount of paperwork and documentation required for financing and closing on a house.
The rule of thumb I've heard is that land is an appreciating asset and the building/house is a depreciating asset. The WSJ once said to count on 10% of the value of your house every year in maintenance, ,but it's a bear to separate house and land values (for instance, the replacement cost of our old house is much more than the total property cost). FL's 2.5% of total value sounds like a reasonable minimum.
When you buy a condo you get less of the first (land) and more of the second (building). Don't think you're not paying for that depreciation, it's just in predictable increments and someone else does most of the work.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:08 AM
after I killed every single human in my co-house
I naively looked at a cohousing community where I'm moving. Even when they really wanted to sell their property, the people there couldn't resist bitching about each other. It was ugly and I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:10 AM
For god's sake, wait a year or two until the bubble bursts. Home prices today are where dotcom stocks were in late 1999, about to fall off a cliff. Eve if you aren't buying to get rich, you don't have to buy at a moment that will make you poor. You'll get 30% more house for your money if you hold off a year.
Posted by arthur | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:12 AM
I'd suggest not buying a house with a roof more than 5 years old
Sigh. I made this mistake and will have to put a new roof on my house some time in next two or three years - a process that will involve removing all the solar panels first, then re-installing after. I was blinded by how much I like the rest of the house and didn't consider just how much expense that would be before I could resell it. I'm half-hoping for a tree to fall on it so my insurance company can buy a new roof for me.
Another factor that is either a plus or minus depending on your preferences: yardwork. I bought a house on a lot with a fair amount of natural area, but after clearing out one area that was being overtaken by brush, I now have to go back and try to eliminate the field of poison ivy and Japanese stilt grass that came up in its stead.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:12 AM
I've always thought co-housing sounded kind of nice. I just got back from a reunion of the hippie co-op I lived in in college, and I loved living in that place. Communal meals that you only had to cook once every few weeks, a very reasonable amount of time invested in keeping the place running, and lots of pleasant people around to spend time with.
Of course, it was college, so everyone's privacy needs and general expectations were pretty low, and it would depend heavily on the people you lived with.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:14 AM
wait a year or two until the bubble bursts
Yes, I'm worried about this. But, like I say, this is just the seed of a thought. It will take quite some time before I'm ready to make a serious offer anywhere.
yardwork
Right. No interest. None. One reason a condo sounds good.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:15 AM
LB, I lived in something similar in college, which is probably why I also was attracted to co-housing.
This one group seemed particularly bad. That being said, I also decided that if I was going to live in intentional community I'd like it to choose the group carefully. At this stage in life, I just don't feel like I have the energy for significant politics related to my neighbors. I've got enough to worry about.
That said, if you're living in a city co-op you may be half way there already.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:20 AM
No interest in yardwork, ogged? You could grow your own vegetables, start an herb garden, maybe get a fruit-bearing tree going! You could make jams, jellies, preserves, liqueurs and ratafias, and indulge in countless food-related domestic rituals that seem charming and fun now that they're wholly optional!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:20 AM
domestic rituals that seem charming and fun now that they're wholly optional!
That is, they're charming because they're not an option. Or do you make jams from your apartment?
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:22 AM
That said, if you're living in a city co-op you may be half way there already.
Not so much. It feels like renting, except that I know that if I get too dissatisfied with the 'landlord'/board, I can try to stage a coup. While it's pretty friendly for an apartment building, it's nothing like communal living.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:24 AM
Co-housing seems idyllic to me. But this may be because I've never done it.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:27 AM
That is, they're charming because they're not an option. Or do you make jams from your apartment?
I looked into it, but I never got around to buying the jars. Maybe this summer.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:32 AM
Yes I would second LB. Co-ops and cohousing are two veeeery different animals. And to stage a coup on the co-op board, what a hassle! I've know people that ended up selling out way early because of the subletting rules.
Posted by Claudia | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:32 AM
I looked at a co-housing intentional community when I was house-hunting. The houses were gorgeous and stuck out in the woods over a river. Almost ideal, really. But then the hermit in me (which is much more pronounced than you might guess from my presence here) came to his senses and started screaming, "NO NO NO NO NO NO!"
I don't want to have to do more than wave to my neighbors, and a weekly meeting plus tending the communal vegetable garden was way beyond that.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:35 AM
domestic rituals that seem charming and fun now that they're wholly optional!
Spot on. Gardens are the new black. I'm starting down this green branch of the yuppy path, and terrifying as it is, I can't help myself. We actually rescheduled a party we're throwing to give us more time to set up the back yard.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:42 AM
If you start making your own jam, Ogged, I'll find you and kill you. I'm just saying.
I have a patio, not a yard-- "no yardwork," the ad said, and it delivered. It's nice for grilling, bad for bocci.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:51 AM
Or you can do what we do, which is mow the lawn evey couple of weeks, and blithely ignore pointed comments from the neighbors about our Creeping Charlie problem.
That said, this year: landscaping to make up for the past 3+ years of neglect. Shit has to go, yo.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:51 AM
I'll find you and kill you
This is why I consider you a true friend. There will be no jam. Nothing will grow, not a beast, not a plant, nor fruit from the earth.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:53 AM
If you start making your own jam, Ogged, I'll find you and kill you.
This should at least provide more fodder for the 'worst thing you've ever done' thread. Although I'm not sure if ogged would really consider making jam worse than hurting a caterpillar.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:53 AM
Maybe you could make caterpillar jam.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:55 AM
If you start making your own jam, Ogged, I'll find you and kill you.
It's not like he can find anyone else to make his jam.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:57 AM
If I had eaten the caterpillar, my list would only be one item long.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:57 AM
Rule of thumb: you can do whatever the hell you want to something, as long as you eat it afterwards.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:58 AM
Gotta go back to the other thread and tell apo he's off the hook.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:02 AM
LizardBreath,
and it (co-housing) would depend heavily on the people you lived with.
Oh, yes. Yes yes YES! It can be really good, and it can be really BAD.
I'm with apostropher - good fences make good neighbors.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:09 AM
That would be me with apostropher above.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:10 AM
It's not like he can find anyone else to make his jam.
Ogged is not ready for this jelly.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:18 AM
Is it uncool to wonder whether they really wrote in the "uh"s?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:20 AM
Oh, yes. Yes yes YES! It can be really good, and it can be really BAD.
Tell me that was deliberate, Tripp.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:36 AM
Re: yardwork
The cost of having somebody come by and mow once every couple of weeks is going to be decidedly less than your condo's maintenance fee.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 10:31 AM
If Ogged flogged his Ogged-jam on his blog, would that be so …
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 11:13 AM
If Ogged flogged his Ogged-jam
Worst masturbation euphemism ever.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 11:19 AM
Wait for it …
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 11:20 AM
OK, to sum up:
1. I killed the thread.
2. The word you're all itching to type is "wrog".
3. So much for the climax to my feeble witticism.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 12:20 PM
1) You can't be sure you killed a thread until it's been dead a week.
2) I still don't get your "feeble witticism." Perhaps you can explain it in great detail.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 12:46 PM
IAAL - but this is NOT legal advice.
1. Get your short-term debt in shape, because you'll need the cushion once you own and lenders look hard at it.
2. Precisely contradictory -- save up for a down payment. If you have parents, a trust fund, anything that can contribute to you borrowing only 80% of value, your mortgage rate will be much lower. the day after you close, you can then get a HELOC -- home equity line of credit -- which is tax deductible up to the first 100K.
3. Budget, budget, budget. New homes are money sinks, even if its just new furniture.
4. Spend a lot of time looking at open houses. How do other people who own live? what do you like about their houses? what do you hate? Develop your own taste before you hire a broker.
5. Spend a lot of time walking/driving target neighborhoods. You're making a multi=year commitment, so be happy with your choice.
6. If you go into multi-unit housing (condo, coop, even a planned unit development), do careful due diligence on the powers of the boards and their history of operation. Read the CC&Rs (covenants, conditions and restrictions) carefully. Insist on reviewing Board minutes and correspondence. Talk to the management company. If you don't get clear answers, walk away. If you don't understand what people are telling you, consider hiring a lawyer. Call your local and/or state bar association to get recommendations. I can't emphasize this point strongly enough; the moment you buy anything other than a single family residence, other people will have the power to reach inside your house and make your life miserable. BE CAREFUL.
Posted by Francis | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 12:56 PM
SB: see?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:14 PM
Thanks, Francis. Now I'm afraid.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:34 PM
I wouldn't take 6 as a warning against multi-unit housing, just a warning to be cautious about and interested in the management thereof.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:36 PM
Re 63:
The word that most obviously completes the question, If Ogged flogged his Ogged-jam on his blog, would that be so …, is "wrong". But the prosody leads — nay, compels! — the reader to substitute the non-word "wrog" instead. The humor springs from the tension between serving content and serving form.
You can laugh now, if you want.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:38 PM
Standpipe Bridgeplate is banned!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:39 PM
SB, that's my kind of joke.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:40 PM
cruor nucis—fux0r!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 1:44 PM
The author of this post is banned. Do not read this post.
My Latin is rusty, but I'm pretty sure I've been ordered to copulate with the terror gonads. Is this correct?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 2:38 PM
"fuxor" isn't Latin. "Cruor nucis" is something like "nut's gore".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 2:48 PM
The author of this post seems not to be so banned. Nifty.
Ah, thanks for explaining. When I said "rusty", I meant "I will google this and invent something".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 3:12 PM
"fuxor" isn't Latin.
Sez you.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:33 PM
Not with a zero in place of the "o".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:38 PM
They're your quotation marks, dawg.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 7:53 PM
Yeah, but ogged has a filter replacing zeroes with "o"s. 000.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:51 PM
Why not cheat? -- ø
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:56 PM
I'm not talking about the empty set, Chops.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 8:57 PM
Ben, I've never been able to figure out where that setting is, or why it's the default.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:05 PM
Ogged, you dirty rat. How can we possibly judge authorial intent 'midst your malicious, intent-obscuring edits? The baby Jesus is crying.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:06 PM
The author is dead man, the author is dead.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:07 PM
That Barthes essay is awful, all the evidence is about how there things important other than authorial intent, and then somehow he concludes that authorial intent is meaningless. It's crap.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:17 PM
Barthes isn't the only guy who killed the author. Anti-humanism, baby.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:19 PM
I haven't read the Barthes essay, in fact.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:20 PM
I read it in a film studies class, I think.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:26 PM
Haven't read it either, but I assume people have discussed Barthes' own intent in writing it?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:45 PM
what does anti-humanism have to do with killing authors?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 3-05 9:45 PM
Another thought I had this morning as I was in the shower: when house shopping, don't be afraid to turn on a few faucets to check the water pressure.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:03 AM
cw,
Oh, yes. Yes yes YES! It can be really good, and it can be really BAD.
Tell me that was deliberate, Tripp.
Why, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I am pure as the driven snow. Pure.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:07 AM
Then why do you purge your cookies and cache so frequently?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:25 AM
I can't speak to the question of the cache, but purging cookies would help Tripp maintain his girlish figure.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:29 AM
Maybe he's purging his cache by giving to the needy.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:33 AM
I suppose this "cookies" business concerns the nameless post by possibly-Tripp. But how do we know anything of possibly-Tripp's cache habits? He could be purging it right now, or filling it, for that matter, and no one would know. Unless he posts more quickly with a loaded cache. Then we would know.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 7:42 AM
Drat, I wish the comment poster thing would catch a blank Name field.
Old habits die hard regarding cache and cookies and posting and paranoia. And, as apostropher (who knows me oh so well) has stated, there is the matter of my girlish figure that must be preserved.
But, really, doesn't the whole point of life boil down to a simple filling and purging of one's cache?
It is my cache and I'll purge it as slowly as I like.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05- 4-05 8:17 AM
Ben, I've never been able to figure out where that setting is, or why it's the default.
Works fine over here.
A search and light skim through the MT 3.2 source doesn't reveal anything likely to be the culprit. What plugins do you have?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-21-05 10:47 PM
Are you still on about that? I don't have any plugins installed (or didn't in May).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-21-05 11:42 PM
It just occurred to me again, having had a recent comment victimized.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-21-05 11:49 PM
It's a mystery.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12-21-05 11:52 PM
You know, in Firefox I sometimes see the zer0s in sage, but not in the normal browser window.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12-21-05 11:55 PM
Oh wait, no. It wasn't victimized. Problem solved!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-22-05 12:05 AM