Jude Law is foreign. The Hollywood hero is a stale role occupied by men of questionable talent. My own cinematic objects of lust primarily hail from the U.K., with the exception of girls.
I think you're on to something; at least, this helps explain my inability to develop a healthy celebrity crush on any leading men. I find myself explaining: yes objectively I agree that Brad Pitt is very attractive. But I'm not attracted. That's gotta be why. And why Johnny Depp seems hotter than All-American Brad.
But delicate! (Good word, Cintra!) (And DD's knowledge that Law is "tidy with his fists" notwithstanding.) I like him, but...
Clive Owen, yes. And when he gets more high profile leading roles, he'll be a good exception. Jackman I've never seen, though trailers make me say, lightweight.
Jude Law is foreign
So is Crowe, for that matter. And Kutcher is from Iowa.
Oh wait, I have seen that, I think you're right, from what little I recall. And I have the horrible cultural prejudice of being unable to see French guys as menacing.
I'm not sure he's that complex in Beau Travail either. In fact, it occurs to me that he often plays the role of object of obsessive love, which means that images of him are heavily heavily filtered through the main character's perspective--the semi-homeless woman in Angels, the brooding officer in Travail.
I have a theory about the larger phenomenon, though--that it's the influence of the gay male gaze on the female gaze.
Gay-influenced images of men became more prevalent in advertising and so on, women (and teenage girls!) responding to them because they were much more overtly sexual than previous images. But then they're also weighted towards gay preferences.
I deny that Clooney is lacking, in no small part because he's the only actor I've seen in anything who I can imagine as a part of the Unfogged commenting klatch. Yes, Pitt's is boring, Crowe's a bore, Smith's annoying, and Law is too pretty to be anything but someone's very precious pet in jail. But Clooney I like.
what about sean penn? while i can't vouch for his recent movie with nicole kidman, but his work generally demonstrates a complicated character who has none of the negative qualities listed by wilson.
re: 10 -- yeah. George Clooney would fit in here. And since when does "adolescent" keep one from being an object of sexual desire. Clooney seems clever. I could mancrush on him.
I suspect the problem has more to do with slick hollywood production and meagre scripts. Pitt is ok when he's in an interesting movie; he just really sucks in Troy.
And I get the feeling that Jude Law's doesn't have to be all that wispy. Anyone seen "existenz?" A good movie, and he is understated in it -- not at all girly, but not really a leading man either. But then I can't forgive him for Alfie, the worst movie I have sat through in the past ten years or so. Then again, I'm not sure that any human could have made that role work -- the movie was just so shitty. Michael Caine was supposedly much better in the original, but then I'll bet the script for the original wasn't quite so wretched.
I should proofread my comments, or wait until my coffee has taken effect before posting. Ogged -- is there any way we could go back and fix our mistakes a la wikipedia?
This occurred to me the other day: you should turn your site into a rewritten mirror of Unfogged. That way we could all get a sense of what might happen if all speech, everywhere, were mediated by you. Who knows, we might like it.
I'm saying you should take a post and comments and rewrite all to be as lucid and particular as you would wish. Then we can compare and see what has been gained and what has been lost.
we would lose a lot of content that way, as roughly 20% of the comments are wolfson correcting people, their reactions to the corrections, and/or comments made in anticipations of such corrections. Then there are the loathesome immitation-correctors.
he's not stupid-seeming, nor weak, delicate, humorless, adolescent, and whatever other complaints ogged has. plus, he's actually kind of a decent actor.
of course, he doesn't have the most sex appeal ever, but he's still pretty damn hot.
What is this, now we have to be qualified to comment? And why the qualifier to 'qualified'? Are you just saying your very in touch with your feminine side? Or your gay alter ego.
I read part of the article, and I have to disagree with Ogged. I really dislike her writing. Too many absolutes and generalities, too many metaphors and superlatives. ick.
Anyway, anyone see Tadanobu Asano in Last Life in the Universe? He was good, and mysterious, and dark, and complex.
Clark Gable -- adolescent (probably Paul Newman too)
Gregory Peck -- wooden and boring (and pudgy)
Marlin Brando -- thuggish, fat
Earl Flynn -- prissy
Steve McQueen -- sickly
Humphry Bogart -- Ugly, grubby
Point being: we can attach fairly accurate derrogatory terms to pretty much all leading men from any time period; I don't think it proves much. A preference for leading men of the past over leading men of the present probably indicates an inquisitive nature and a dissatisfaction with the group-think of today. But there was a group-think of the past, and pop culture has always had its limitations.
Which is not to say that Will Smith isn't a tool, and that Ashton Cutcher shouldn't be beaten with pvc piping.
I think you cheated, text. McQueen became sickly, and Brando became fat, but they were not ever thus. The rest I'll grant. But you didn't mention the two from yesteryear that are great: Mitchum and Grant.
Am I in the position of rejecting candidates? This is a good job. Fishburne can be great, but doesn't usually get leading man roles. I assume Ethan Hawke is a joke.
Didn't Cintra Wilson, a few years back, have an extended paean to burly, barrel-chested men of yesteryear? Thos who carried a few extra pounds, but used it to project power rather than pudginess?
laurence fishburne = very, very hot. except his melodramatic performance in the second two matrix movies was a bit much.
ethan hawke is a terrible, terrible actor. did anyone see that version of hamlet he did? it was ridiculous. the only reason gattaca was any good was because of jude law and a decent plot/script.
Oh, I have a weak spot for Ethan Hawke because someone once told me I looked like him (circa the release of Reality Bites (when I was much skinnier and had a goatee). But I like how he's aged, and thought he was great in Assault on Precinct 13.
McQueen always looked sort of sickly to me; that was part of his charm. You could also say that he was never really interesting in any roles; there was just something very laid back and confident about him. I like him -- just pointing out that you could easily ascribe some put-down to him that wouldn't be innacurate.
Brando became fat over the course of many years. He wasn't truly obese until the 70s, but in hollywood terms, he was fat for awhile before then. And he was thuggish -- again, part of his charm. Brando was awesome. But you could also say that Del Toro's grubbiness is part of his charm, as well as George Clooney's adolescence, and even Jude Law's prissiness.
yeah, bill murray was (as usual) great. but if you're going to do hamlet, you could at least find a decent fucking actor to do it. even kenneth branagh (who i adore) was way too old to be playing that role.
i suppose at least it wasn't big-neck playing the prince of denmark. that was truly hideous.
I will defend Hawke's peformance in Training Day,/i>. The problem with Hawke, to me, is that he tries to be intellectual, but just ends of being annoying.
i thought it was boring. ooh, a weird techno-world version of shakespeare? baz luhrmann was on that shit 10 years ago, with much better results, in my opinion (claire danes' terrible acting aside).
I have a weak spot for Ethan Hawke. Something about him in the Before/After Susent movies -- he seems too much like me. A lot of people can't stand that character. Perhaps I am an ass. And I like the way he's aged -- looks like he's lived.
1. Wolfson, I wanted to clarify that the thought occured to me when I was writing a comment, was dissatisfied with its clarity, and wanted to append a {Wolfson, please fix} tag to it. So the joke was written out of love. Love.
2. Earl Flynn -- prissy
Read a bit about Errol Flynn. Degenerate - absolutely. Prissy - absolutely no way.
i suppose joaquin is ok, but i've been biased against him ever since i really, really hated him in gladiator, which i actually hated in general, but his performance in particular.
but maybe he'll be redeemed once i see hotel rwanda?
ewan mcgregor is pretty awesome. but he hasn't seemed to have doing anything good lately. what's with all the musicals?
SCMT -- I've heard of those stories, and yes, Errol [note correction] Flynn could probably knock my teeth out. But Jude Law might be able to do that too (I'd be highly embarrassed). The point is how he comes across on screen.
I think part of the problem is how generic male movie stars have become. Modern body-building techniques have made all male stars more of less the same physical type – average height, skinny base, built up with muscles that aren't the product of any non-gym-related activity. In the past, you had more variety – burly actors like Robert Mitchum, lanky ones like Gregory Peck or handsome, but unmuscled, types like Carey Grant. At the same time, every actor appears in every kind of movie – serious dramas, action flicks and light comedies – so they no longer have distinct personalities. Think of Nick Cage's career or Ben Affleck's. The result of all this is that you have actors who are objectively beautiful, like Brad Pitt or Jude Law, but not interesting physically or personality-wise.
Here are two data points:
My wife adores Clive Owen and used to be into Adrien Brody, until he appeared in those lame commercials. She teaches middle school at a girls' school and all of her students are mad – literally mad! – for Orlando Blooom.
I just skimmed the Wilson piece. Tell me that this:
shy, geeky wonder and gee-whiz surprise on his face as the women undress him is a prime example of the understated, selfless commitment with which Colin serves his films
wasn't written by a " weepy, overweight [middle-aged woman] from the Midwest" with a straight face.
He left me totally unconvinced in Fight Club. Then...keeping the faith, the score, red dragon, the italian job. Ugh. He was alright in American History X.
I think susan is right; Depp qualifies. For a brief period of time, Alec Baldwin qualified, as did Tommy Lee Jones, and did/does Michael Madsen. Also, DeNiro and Pacino when younger. Martin Sheen, when younger, too (Badlands, at a minimum).
Brad Pitt no no no! the first time I ever saw him was in Thelma and Louise, and I wondered what was wrong with Louise (or was it Thelma) to be flipping out over this utterly unattractive fellow.
Nick Stahl maybe? Granted, i haven't seen him in T3 as John Connor but I think he did great on Carnivale and made a good film noir villian in Sin City.
Other leading men without gym mussels: McGregor, Crowe, Depp, del Toro, Pheonix.
Luke Wilson is good, but I don't think he's been quite a "leading man" yet. But, handsome, not overbuilt, conflicted and complex he definately is.
in response to the Salon article, I don't see how Gregoire Colin is any more exotic than Keanu Reeeves or vin Diesel.
silvana (70),
Hotel Rwanda is terrific. Pheonix is terrific too, but, has a short role. That film alone could possibly nominate Don Cheadle. And, having seen Cheadle in inteviews, he is a very different person from the character he is playing, which is a bonus.
haha, ogged, i was about to post that same picture.
i was going to disagree, but after looking at all these pictures, i'd say that ben affleck doesn't much have gym muscles, he's just a big dude. that fucker's like 6'5" or something. but i still don't like him, probably because i first saw him in armageddon, which pretty much sealed his fate. and it's not like he's done anything particularly interesting since then. was particularly annoying in chasing amy.
cheadle's cute.
but Michael, Crowe? no gym muscles? he's suffering the same big-neck problem, i believe. except for in a beautiful mind, which they probably made him skinny up for.
Yes on Jackman, Clooney, Fishburne, Washington, and MacGregor. I used to go all misty-eyed over Nick Cage, but something happened -- he hasn't aged well.
I really don't think we've got an actor problem, I think we've got a script problem. Actors in prior decades looked like they had complex, meaningful depth of personality because they had better scripts to work with. Any actor is going to look empty-headed when they're appearing in crap.
text, what are you smoking? They're both good, but whereas Owen is funny-charming, Luke's more brooding-charming. And DiCaptrio was very good in the Aviator. I think he's a possible leading man, but not there yet.
Crowe is bulky with rounded mussels, not cut and defined, low bodyfat muscular, which is what I associate with gym mussels.
Since Wolfson's intent on nominating oldies, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Harrison Ford or Bogart, who I figured were the leading men par excellence in this exercise.
I think Luke only works in Wes Anderson movies. He's got that odd quietness. It looks like depth at first, but it's just awkwardness. Owen has that, and he's funny, and intelligent. At close examination, Luke is an empty vessel.
For instance, I hated him in Old School, and thought he almost ruined the movie. He's an energey vacuum. That can work in some movies, but is not particularly a virtue.
ben, you've nominated 2. Hackman's time as a sexy leading-man is over.
And Ford and Bogard - they're grouped together because of their screen presence, nothing else. To be honest though, I haven't seen many Bogart movies, nor Ford movies, for that matter.
I tell you, Gosling's trying to make interesting choices. (Except for that horrible Notebook thingy.) He's a young'un, but he's kind of intense and protean.
I like him in some movies -- I guess I just think that his forte is very limited. It isn't so much acting as that he's got this awkwardness that works really well in Wes Anderson films, and he's handsome in an interesting way. Owen is the real deal.
I don't want to act like I've got a big thing for Phillipe, I'm just saying put a few wrinkles around the eyes, maybe gain some weight, and there was potential there.
I agree with the Luke Wilson, empty vessel comment. He's just good looking in a Matthew McConna-whatever kind of way. All each really has going for him is an intersection between the natural aristocracy of the beautiful and the natural aristocracy of the athletic.
And Luke Wilson's job in that movie was to be the bland everyman straightman whose wacky friends got him in trouble. I'm not gonna say he was great, but there's only so much you can do in that role.
i know i'll probably get lambasted for saying this, but i don't really think will ferrell's been all that great in any of the feature films he's done. i just tend to find him annoying.
The "More Cowbell" sketch from SNL cemented him in my pantheon of comedic gods. The "Blowing In the Wind" bit from Old School confirmed it. There hasn't been a comic actor in a long time so willing to just make a complete ass of himself.
yeah, i guess i just don't give much weight to the complete-assery street cred. i'd make a complete ass of myself if i were getting paid as much as he is, too. hell, i've made a complete ass of myself on stage for free.
is there no descening from the pantheon once entry has been permitted? what about anchorman? elf?
Yeah, I like both Anchorman and Elf. Anchorman, I thought, had flashes of brilliance (the street fight between rival news teams, a few other spots). Elf was more just sweet rather than funny, although the bit where he discovers sugar was pretty funny. It's not just the making an ass of himself, but the way he "commits to the moment" that just kills me.
Ewan MacGregor has the voice of God & is wasted in any movie in which he does not sing. Norton has my vote as best American; though I think Depp is wonderful, he's not the classic hero. Ralph Fiennes is my favourite actor working in the medium.
Brad Pitt: Only attractive when not playing attractive types. Twelve Monkeys, Snatch .
Hugh Jackman: Not sure he can act, but I don't really care. Yummy.
Johnny Depp. Of course.
Ewan McGregor: perfect.
Jake Gyllenhaal: I liked Donnie Darko . He seems to look different now. Probably got older/a trainer.
Jude Law: wonderful, wonderful actor. But... can someone explain to me why he's considered to be attractive? I just don't get it. At all. He's not hideous... but swooning? Why swoon?
Have you no sense of chivalry, woman? First she flings a glove in your face and demands that you confess that Fiennes is compelling or meet her at dawn. Then you duel.
Somedays I think I'm the only one reading the instructions around here.
No, no, no. If you don't want to risk your life, you admit that he's charming. If you keep on calling him icky, you have to back up the insult by dueling. Otherwise, my understanding is that aspyre is entitled to horsewhip you on the steps of your club.
(Picturing myself on the steps of the HRC on 45th Street, expecting a blow...)
Ralph Fiennes takes himself waaay too seriously. And he's always getting naked in every film he's in, which, you know, normally I wouldn't object to. But somehow with him there's this tone of "I'm such a European actor, giving you a full frontal because I'm so very European and deep and serious.
Ewan McGregor takes his clothes off all the time, too, but it just seems fun.
Perhaps in this modern day and age, you can expect to be lashed while on the step-mill inside your gym. To save yourself, take up aerobics. (Unless you go in for the really butch brand of personal trainer, in which case maybe you should just o around insulting people's film star of choice.)
I think I'd have to be paid to whip people, and it hardly conveys the artistic superiority of an actor to brutalize a fellow sentient being. Ewan MacGregor's persona is collegiate boy, though I enjoy seeing him naked as much as the next girl. Ralph has existential ambitions beyond film, and seems to consider the ramifications of his characters more. He's started doing light & forgettable comedies because he doesn't want to be bound to agonizing dramas, but his range as an actor, (Quiz Show, Strange Days, Sunshine, and yes, The English Patient) astounds me. Incidentally, Cary Grant is his hero.
I have never been to NYC as an adult. I grew up in a small town in South Dakota. To me, Minneapolis/St. Paul is "The Cities." And it's a big metro area. But reading people nonchalantly discuss 57th street and realizing that it's still just downtown in NYC snaps me out of my "I live in a big city" haze. 57th street in Minneapolis is actually in a suburb. Geez.
I know roughly where 57th in Manhattan is, since I remember I walked from a subway stop in the 40s north along the left side of central park to a theater in the 90s to watch a Kurosawa movie once when I was in New York for a job interview for which I was ill-prepared, which is too bad since it would have brought in mad ca$h.
The movie was good, though, and I saw a bunch of short films by Joseph Cornell accompanied by music by John Zorn.
I was there 92-94, just after college. My best friend at Amherst was a Chicagoan and I went back home with her, not wanting to return to NYC right away. I have no idea what an LP trixie is, so probably wasn't one. I lived on Briar, two blocks from the lake. I knew a bunch of actors--one of my roomates did Speech & Drama at Northwestern, and she and her friends were in a bunch of productions.
It's true that Sunshine's suckiness was so immense as to dwarf Ralph Fiennes's particular suckiness, and yet he played three or four different parts in it, so his share of suckiness was greater than anyone else's. He carried that suckiness on his shoulders.
Gotta organize the people of Milwaukee (avenue--there's a city of the same name) to protect tex's identity. "I am textualist!" "I am textualist!" "I am textualist!" etc.
It just occurred to me that the "I am Brian" scene from Life of may take off from Spartacus. Haven't seen Spartacus so don't know.
LB, I think Mom's still asleep but I'll ask her later. Now I should really read today's conference paper.
That's not terribly near me, but a family of the Nagles live in my building. They've been in the neighborhood since the eighteenth century. Not that they have anything to show for it but their name on stuff.
Jude Law is foreign. The Hollywood hero is a stale role occupied by men of questionable talent. My own cinematic objects of lust primarily hail from the U.K., with the exception of girls.
Posted by aspyre | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 5:12 AM
I think you're on to something; at least, this helps explain my inability to develop a healthy celebrity crush on any leading men. I find myself explaining: yes objectively I agree that Brad Pitt is very attractive. But I'm not attracted. That's gotta be why. And why Johnny Depp seems hotter than All-American Brad.
Posted by susan | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 5:38 AM
Clive Owens, Hugh Jackman?
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:01 AM
Jude Law is hot, yo.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:09 AM
I love Gregoire Colin, but in his sexiest role, as the club owner in The Dreamlife of Angels, he's not that complex, he's just mean.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:25 AM
Jude Law is hot, yo.
But delicate! (Good word, Cintra!) (And DD's knowledge that Law is "tidy with his fists" notwithstanding.) I like him, but...
Clive Owen, yes. And when he gets more high profile leading roles, he'll be a good exception. Jackman I've never seen, though trailers make me say, lightweight.
Jude Law is foreign
So is Crowe, for that matter. And Kutcher is from Iowa.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:27 AM
The Dreamlife of Angels
Oh wait, I have seen that, I think you're right, from what little I recall. And I have the horrible cultural prejudice of being unable to see French guys as menacing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:30 AM
I'm not sure he's that complex in Beau Travail either. In fact, it occurs to me that he often plays the role of object of obsessive love, which means that images of him are heavily heavily filtered through the main character's perspective--the semi-homeless woman in Angels, the brooding officer in Travail.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:33 AM
I have a theory about the larger phenomenon, though--that it's the influence of the gay male gaze on the female gaze.
Gay-influenced images of men became more prevalent in advertising and so on, women (and teenage girls!) responding to them because they were much more overtly sexual than previous images. But then they're also weighted towards gay preferences.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:42 AM
I deny that Clooney is lacking, in no small part because he's the only actor I've seen in anything who I can imagine as a part of the Unfogged commenting klatch. Yes, Pitt's is boring, Crowe's a bore, Smith's annoying, and Law is too pretty to be anything but someone's very precious pet in jail. But Clooney I like.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:59 AM
I'll third the Clive Owen nomination.
Posted by Karyn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 7:10 AM
Clive Owen is not American, though he was awesome in Croupier.
I can't remember much of Beau Travail except that it was a beautiful movie, but were any of the characters that complex?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 7:10 AM
what about sean penn? while i can't vouch for his recent movie with nicole kidman, but his work generally demonstrates a complicated character who has none of the negative qualities listed by wilson.
Posted by japhy | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 7:12 AM
To the extent the emotions were complex in BT, they were the emotions of the observer not the observed, I'd say.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:26 AM
the influence of the gay male gaze on the female gaze
I think this is right. I'm not quite qualified, as I'm neither gay nor female, but well, I think it's right is all.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:31 AM
re: 10 -- yeah. George Clooney would fit in here. And since when does "adolescent" keep one from being an object of sexual desire. Clooney seems clever. I could mancrush on him.
I suspect the problem has more to do with slick hollywood production and meagre scripts. Pitt is ok when he's in an interesting movie; he just really sucks in Troy.
And I get the feeling that Jude Law's doesn't have to be all that wispy. Anyone seen "existenz?" A good movie, and he is understated in it -- not at all girly, but not really a leading man either. But then I can't forgive him for Alfie, the worst movie I have sat through in the past ten years or so. Then again, I'm not sure that any human could have made that role work -- the movie was just so shitty. Michael Caine was supposedly much better in the original, but then I'll bet the script for the original wasn't quite so wretched.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:34 AM
I should proofread my comments, or wait until my coffee has taken effect before posting. Ogged -- is there any way we could go back and fix our mistakes a la wikipedia?
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:36 AM
I don't know of a way, and wouldn't implement it if it existed (he adds, gratuitously).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:38 AM
Comment editing would be chaos. Chaos!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:41 AM
Wolfson:
This occurred to me the other day: you should turn your site into a rewritten mirror of Unfogged. That way we could all get a sense of what might happen if all speech, everywhere, were mediated by you. Who knows, we might like it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:44 AM
I'm unsure what you mean, SCMT. Are you saying I should just copy every post and comment in my own inimitable style?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:44 AM
Not comment, but rewrite, correcting for spelling and grammar, changing the style to suit you, etc. I think it's a good idea.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:48 AM
I'm saying you should take a post and comments and rewrite all to be as lucid and particular as you would wish. Then we can compare and see what has been gained and what has been lost.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:48 AM
we would lose a lot of content that way, as roughly 20% of the comments are wolfson correcting people, their reactions to the corrections, and/or comments made in anticipations of such corrections. Then there are the loathesome immitation-correctors.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:49 AM
if you can't beat 'em, join 'em
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:54 AM
imitation, text.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:54 AM
"anticipations of such corrections"
Fuck to Oboe
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:55 AM
Fuck to Oboe again. Wake up, text.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:56 AM
what about benicio del toro? any takers?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:56 AM
Too weird. Not rugged, not interesting. Weird.
He says, straightly.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 8:57 AM
benicio del toro
Grubby.
Sean Penn
Ugly. Mumbles.
Actually, I like a lot of these guys, but regarding them as a group of leading men, I think Wilson's got a point.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:00 AM
Hell, I like Keanu Reeves.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:02 AM
dude, he's hot.
and totally rugged.
unless being rugged involves having a huge neck à la mel gibson, in which case i want none of it.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:03 AM
You know who's hot? Ed Harris.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:03 AM
Tony Leung?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:05 AM
I'd be down with Benicio if he'd always talk like he did in The Usual Suspects. Similarly, Brad Pitt in Snatch.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:05 AM
plus, what about denzel washingtong?
he's not stupid-seeming, nor weak, delicate, humorless, adolescent, and whatever other complaints ogged has. plus, he's actually kind of a decent actor.
of course, he doesn't have the most sex appeal ever, but he's still pretty damn hot.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:09 AM
washington, not washingtong. although that does sound like a decent idea for a new unnecessary kitchen implement.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:10 AM
I'm not quite qualified
What is this, now we have to be qualified to comment? And why the qualifier to 'qualified'? Are you just saying your very in touch with your feminine side? Or your gay alter ego.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:11 AM
I read part of the article, and I have to disagree with Ogged. I really dislike her writing. Too many absolutes and generalities, too many metaphors and superlatives. ick.
Anyway, anyone see Tadanobu Asano in Last Life in the Universe? He was good, and mysterious, and dark, and complex.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:11 AM
Clark Gable -- adolescent (probably Paul Newman too)
Gregory Peck -- wooden and boring (and pudgy)
Marlin Brando -- thuggish, fat
Earl Flynn -- prissy
Steve McQueen -- sickly
Humphry Bogart -- Ugly, grubby
Point being: we can attach fairly accurate derrogatory terms to pretty much all leading men from any time period; I don't think it proves much. A preference for leading men of the past over leading men of the present probably indicates an inquisitive nature and a dissatisfaction with the group-think of today. But there was a group-think of the past, and pop culture has always had its limitations.
Which is not to say that Will Smith isn't a tool, and that Ashton Cutcher shouldn't be beaten with pvc piping.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:11 AM
Errrmm. Bruce Willis? He's kinda old, now, but still lands the leading roles.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:11 AM
Denzel! Yes.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:11 AM
I find Denzel to be bland like rice cereal.
Laurence Fishburne? Ethan Hawke?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:13 AM
I think you cheated, text. McQueen became sickly, and Brando became fat, but they were not ever thus. The rest I'll grant. But you didn't mention the two from yesteryear that are great: Mitchum and Grant.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:13 AM
bruce willis is another big-neck. not acceptable.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:14 AM
Am I in the position of rejecting candidates? This is a good job. Fishburne can be great, but doesn't usually get leading man roles. I assume Ethan Hawke is a joke.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:15 AM
Didn't Cintra Wilson, a few years back, have an extended paean to burly, barrel-chested men of yesteryear? Thos who carried a few extra pounds, but used it to project power rather than pudginess?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:15 AM
Are you just saying your very in touch with your feminine side? Or your gay alter ego.
Precisely! I'm almost, but not quite, qualified!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:16 AM
Clint Eastwood circa the Dollars trilogy?
Mitchum in Night of the Hunter: creepy!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:16 AM
i'm with ogged.
laurence fishburne = very, very hot. except his melodramatic performance in the second two matrix movies was a bit much.
ethan hawke is a terrible, terrible actor. did anyone see that version of hamlet he did? it was ridiculous. the only reason gattaca was any good was because of jude law and a decent plot/script.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:16 AM
Ben, does Leung do any English-speaking roles? That seems to be the operational distinction between "foreign" and not.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:16 AM
I saw that Hamlet! I liked Bill Murray as Polonius.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:17 AM
I actually thought the Hamlet that had Hawke in it was a terrific movie, his acting aside.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:17 AM
Oh, I have a weak spot for Ethan Hawke because someone once told me I looked like him (circa the release of Reality Bites (when I was much skinnier and had a goatee). But I like how he's aged, and thought he was great in Assault on Precinct 13.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:17 AM
Ah. I don't think he's done any English-speaking roles.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:18 AM
Guy Pearce?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:18 AM
Ratty.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:18 AM
Chow Yun Fat?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:19 AM
McQueen always looked sort of sickly to me; that was part of his charm. You could also say that he was never really interesting in any roles; there was just something very laid back and confident about him. I like him -- just pointing out that you could easily ascribe some put-down to him that wouldn't be innacurate.
Brando became fat over the course of many years. He wasn't truly obese until the 70s, but in hollywood terms, he was fat for awhile before then. And he was thuggish -- again, part of his charm. Brando was awesome. But you could also say that Del Toro's grubbiness is part of his charm, as well as George Clooney's adolescence, and even Jude Law's prissiness.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:19 AM
yeah, bill murray was (as usual) great. but if you're going to do hamlet, you could at least find a decent fucking actor to do it. even kenneth branagh (who i adore) was way too old to be playing that role.
i suppose at least it wasn't big-neck playing the prince of denmark. that was truly hideous.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:19 AM
I will defend Hawke's peformance in Training Day,/i>. The problem with Hawke, to me, is that he tries to be intellectual, but just ends of being annoying.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:20 AM
Cary Grant is awesome. I cannot say anything against the man. Not sure about Mitchum.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:20 AM
I was thinking Chow Yun Fat, but then I realized I've never seen a movie he's been in.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:20 AM
i thought it was boring. ooh, a weird techno-world version of shakespeare? baz luhrmann was on that shit 10 years ago, with much better results, in my opinion (claire danes' terrible acting aside).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:21 AM
I have a weak spot for Ethan Hawke. Something about him in the Before/After Susent movies -- he seems too much like me. A lot of people can't stand that character. Perhaps I am an ass. And I like the way he's aged -- looks like he's lived.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:25 AM
Other nominees: Joaquin Phoenix, Ewan McGregor
And point of order: isn't the point to look at current american actors? So Eastwood's dollar triology is out.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:25 AM
1. Wolfson, I wanted to clarify that the thought occured to me when I was writing a comment, was dissatisfied with its clarity, and wanted to append a {Wolfson, please fix} tag to it. So the joke was written out of love. Love.
2. Earl Flynn -- prissy
Read a bit about Errol Flynn. Degenerate - absolutely. Prissy - absolutely no way.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:27 AM
I know vintage Eastwood is out, but I think he's very compelling in those roles.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:28 AM
i suppose joaquin is ok, but i've been biased against him ever since i really, really hated him in gladiator, which i actually hated in general, but his performance in particular.
but maybe he'll be redeemed once i see hotel rwanda?
ewan mcgregor is pretty awesome. but he hasn't seemed to have doing anything good lately. what's with all the musicals?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:29 AM
SCMT -- I've heard of those stories, and yes, Errol [note correction] Flynn could probably knock my teeth out. But Jude Law might be able to do that too (I'd be highly embarrassed). The point is how he comes across on screen.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:31 AM
Ewan has been travelling the world on motorcycle. Which counts in his favor.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:32 AM
I think part of the problem is how generic male movie stars have become. Modern body-building techniques have made all male stars more of less the same physical type – average height, skinny base, built up with muscles that aren't the product of any non-gym-related activity. In the past, you had more variety – burly actors like Robert Mitchum, lanky ones like Gregory Peck or handsome, but unmuscled, types like Carey Grant. At the same time, every actor appears in every kind of movie – serious dramas, action flicks and light comedies – so they no longer have distinct personalities. Think of Nick Cage's career or Ben Affleck's. The result of all this is that you have actors who are objectively beautiful, like Brad Pitt or Jude Law, but not interesting physically or personality-wise.
Here are two data points:
My wife adores Clive Owen and used to be into Adrien Brody, until he appeared in those lame commercials. She teaches middle school at a girls' school and all of her students are mad – literally mad! – for Orlando Blooom.
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:32 AM
Orlando Bloom -- another candidate for the pvc piping.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:33 AM
Ditto pjs's first paragraph.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:34 AM
I just skimmed the Wilson piece. Tell me that this:
shy, geeky wonder and gee-whiz surprise on his face as the women undress him is a prime example of the understated, selfless commitment with which Colin serves his films
wasn't written by a " weepy, overweight [middle-aged woman] from the Midwest" with a straight face.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:34 AM
Ewan has been travelling the world on motorcycle.
that's totally hot.
i know it's ridiculous and somewhat passé to think dudes on motorcycles are hot, but damnit, they are.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:34 AM
Does Edward Norton get enough leading roles to count?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:36 AM
the two from yesteryear that are great: ... Grant.
Hugh? Snicker.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:36 AM
Silvana, I've had the same problem.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:36 AM
SCMT, yeah, that's why I said she was "gushing." She does go on a like that.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:37 AM
Edward Norton
I'm a very big fan of his, but I think the answer to the question is no.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:37 AM
Norton? Norton???
He left me totally unconvinced in Fight Club. Then...keeping the faith, the score, red dragon, the italian job. Ugh. He was alright in American History X.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:42 AM
Death to Smoochy
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:43 AM
I think susan is right; Depp qualifies. For a brief period of time, Alec Baldwin qualified, as did Tommy Lee Jones, and did/does Michael Madsen. Also, DeNiro and Pacino when younger. Martin Sheen, when younger, too (Badlands, at a minimum).
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:44 AM
Johnny Depp yes.
Chow Yun Fat yes.
Tony Leung yes (both of them).
Bruce Willis yes, but only in Pulp Fiction.
Benicio del Toro yes.
Keanu Reeves no.
Brad Pitt no no no! the first time I ever saw him was in Thelma and Louise, and I wondered what was wrong with Louise (or was it Thelma) to be flipping out over this utterly unattractive fellow.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:46 AM
Baldwin is a good example of a (fairly) modern leading man without gym muscles. So is Ben Afflec, actually, though again, pvc piping.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:46 AM
Affleck
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:47 AM
Anyone who has been the lead in a Terence Malick film counts as legit, if only for the period of time he was in that film.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:48 AM
I also think Depp qualifies. The others are a bit dated. Maybe the 70's were the golden age of interesting leading men.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:49 AM
Affleck, gym muscles, not for lack of trying.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:49 AM
Nick Stahl maybe? Granted, i haven't seen him in T3 as John Connor but I think he did great on Carnivale and made a good film noir villian in Sin City.
Posted by Karyn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:50 AM
Other leading men without gym mussels: McGregor, Crowe, Depp, del Toro, Pheonix.
Luke Wilson is good, but I don't think he's been quite a "leading man" yet. But, handsome, not overbuilt, conflicted and complex he definately is.
in response to the Salon article, I don't see how Gregoire Colin is any more exotic than Keanu Reeeves or vin Diesel.
silvana (70),
Hotel Rwanda is terrific. Pheonix is terrific too, but, has a short role. That film alone could possibly nominate Don Cheadle. And, having seen Cheadle in inteviews, he is a very different person from the character he is playing, which is a bonus.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:52 AM
he sucked in T3, but what are you going to do with that role?
Surprised nobody mentione Leonardo Dicaprio. I find him a bit rodent-like, and boring. But no gym muscles either.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:54 AM
Nick Stahl
Can they count if I've never heard of them?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:55 AM
Luke Wilson -- poor man's Owen.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:55 AM
Ryan Phillipe seems to have disappeared, but I thought, circa Way of the Gun, that he might mature into someone interesting.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:55 AM
Gene Hackman.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:55 AM
Ryan Gosling is pretty hot, and a good actor. He's not a leading man yet, but may be headed there.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:56 AM
Text, then there's the Mysterious Third Wilson Brother.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:56 AM
haha, ogged, i was about to post that same picture.
i was going to disagree, but after looking at all these pictures, i'd say that ben affleck doesn't much have gym muscles, he's just a big dude. that fucker's like 6'5" or something. but i still don't like him, probably because i first saw him in armageddon, which pretty much sealed his fate. and it's not like he's done anything particularly interesting since then. was particularly annoying in chasing amy.
cheadle's cute.
but Michael, Crowe? no gym muscles? he's suffering the same big-neck problem, i believe. except for in a beautiful mind, which they probably made him skinny up for.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:56 AM
But he was in the Notebook, for which, pvc piping.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:57 AM
Michael in 93, "definately" is so plebeian.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:57 AM
I didn't see the Notebook, but only for the trailers.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:57 AM
Yes on Jackman, Clooney, Fishburne, Washington, and MacGregor. I used to go all misty-eyed over Nick Cage, but something happened -- he hasn't aged well.
I really don't think we've got an actor problem, I think we've got a script problem. Actors in prior decades looked like they had complex, meaningful depth of personality because they had better scripts to work with. Any actor is going to look empty-headed when they're appearing in crap.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:58 AM
Ryan Gosling? The kid from Breaker High? Am now assuming LB developed her taste for smooth young paralegals in high school.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:58 AM
have not heard of the Mysterious Third
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 9:59 AM
That was ac, not me. I've never heard of the juvenile waterfowl in question.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:00 AM
text, what are you smoking? They're both good, but whereas Owen is funny-charming, Luke's more brooding-charming. And DiCaptrio was very good in the Aviator. I think he's a possible leading man, but not there yet.
Crowe is bulky with rounded mussels, not cut and defined, low bodyfat muscular, which is what I associate with gym mussels.
Since Wolfson's intent on nominating oldies, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Harrison Ford or Bogart, who I figured were the leading men par excellence in this exercise.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:01 AM
Cheadle was unbelievably good in Devin in a Blue Dress; stole the movie. But he just gets shit roles.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:01 AM
ditto 105. All will change when my screenwriting career takes off.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:01 AM
Since Wolfson's intent on nominating oldies
Er, I've only nominated one. But Harrison Ford and Bogart in the same breath? Come on!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:03 AM
I think Luke only works in Wes Anderson movies. He's got that odd quietness. It looks like depth at first, but it's just awkwardness. Owen has that, and he's funny, and intelligent. At close examination, Luke is an empty vessel.
For instance, I hated him in Old School, and thought he almost ruined the movie. He's an energey vacuum. That can work in some movies, but is not particularly a virtue.
Don Cheadle kicks ass.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:05 AM
ben, you've nominated 2. Hackman's time as a sexy leading-man is over.
And Ford and Bogard - they're grouped together because of their screen presence, nothing else. To be honest though, I haven't seen many Bogart movies, nor Ford movies, for that matter.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:05 AM
gym mussels
And I feel like William Tell
Maid Marian on her tiptoed feet
Pulling muscles from Michelle...
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:06 AM
I tell you, Gosling's trying to make interesting choices. (Except for that horrible Notebook thingy.) He's a young'un, but he's kind of intense and protean.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:06 AM
ryan phillipe? nooo. first, he looks about as bland as you could possibly get. very ken-esque. second, blond curly hair is usually never good.
i never liked mussels. not much for oysters, either, quite frankly.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:06 AM
Dear River Phoenix: I wish you weren't dead.
Posted by girl27 | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:06 AM
Old School just proves silly college movies aren't Luke's forte.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:09 AM
or it could just be that old school sucked, vince vaughn aside.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:11 AM
I like him in some movies -- I guess I just think that his forte is very limited. It isn't so much acting as that he's got this awkwardness that works really well in Wes Anderson films, and he's handsome in an interesting way. Owen is the real deal.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:11 AM
I don't want to act like I've got a big thing for Phillipe, I'm just saying put a few wrinkles around the eyes, maybe gain some weight, and there was potential there.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:11 AM
120 -- yes, could be, although Will Ferrell had some nice moments himself.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:12 AM
Saying Old Schools suck except for vince vaughn makes me question your sanity, silvana. Will Ferell stole that fucking movie.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:12 AM
Although the Vince Vaugn rhythm gymnastics scene was choice.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:13 AM
Philippe pulled off a heartless bastard in Igby Goes Down with panache. But I'm worried he wasn't acting.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:14 AM
I agree with the Luke Wilson, empty vessel comment. He's just good looking in a Matthew McConna-whatever kind of way. All each really has going for him is an intersection between the natural aristocracy of the beautiful and the natural aristocracy of the athletic.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:14 AM
And Luke Wilson's job in that movie was to be the bland everyman straightman whose wacky friends got him in trouble. I'm not gonna say he was great, but there's only so much you can do in that role.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:15 AM
i know i'll probably get lambasted for saying this, but i don't really think will ferrell's been all that great in any of the feature films he's done. i just tend to find him annoying.
but i have a very picky sense of humor, soo..
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:18 AM
Old School might suck if I watched it sober, but I've not tested that theory and am unlikely to do so.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:18 AM
Kinda like Half Baked.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:19 AM
Anchroman was terrible.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:19 AM
Matches mine, apparently.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:20 AM
That was to 129.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:20 AM
Anchorman was terrible, too.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:20 AM
The "More Cowbell" sketch from SNL cemented him in my pantheon of comedic gods. The "Blowing In the Wind" bit from Old School confirmed it. There hasn't been a comic actor in a long time so willing to just make a complete ass of himself.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:22 AM
yeah, i guess i just don't give much weight to the complete-assery street cred. i'd make a complete ass of myself if i were getting paid as much as he is, too. hell, i've made a complete ass of myself on stage for free.
is there no descening from the pantheon once entry has been permitted? what about anchorman? elf?
nothing?
chopper, you're a man of faith.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:24 AM
descending.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:25 AM
Old School is funny. Elf is funny too. I do see suckiness in Will Ferrell's future though.
Posted by joe o | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:26 AM
Yeah, I like both Anchorman and Elf. Anchorman, I thought, had flashes of brilliance (the street fight between rival news teams, a few other spots). Elf was more just sweet rather than funny, although the bit where he discovers sugar was pretty funny. It's not just the making an ass of himself, but the way he "commits to the moment" that just kills me.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 10:31 AM
This whole thread is interesting to me, because I'm trying to decipher what makes a guy attractive without being able to feel the attraction.
Oh, and kinda OT but Ben Stiller seemed to get a little pumped up for Dodgeball, didn't he?
I was surprised I liked that movie. I didn't really expect to.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 11:35 AM
I really like Crispin Glover, but I don't suppose he's a leading man by any stretch of the imagination.
Fishburne in Othello was lovely.
Posted by winna | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 1:38 PM
Ewan MacGregor has the voice of God & is wasted in any movie in which he does not sing. Norton has my vote as best American; though I think Depp is wonderful, he's not the classic hero. Ralph Fiennes is my favourite actor working in the medium.
Posted by aspyre | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 3:31 PM
I hate Ralph Fiennes with a passion.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 4:14 PM
Odds and ends:
Brad Pitt: Only attractive when not playing attractive types. Twelve Monkeys, Snatch .
Hugh Jackman: Not sure he can act, but I don't really care. Yummy.
Johnny Depp. Of course.
Ewan McGregor: perfect.
Jake Gyllenhaal: I liked Donnie Darko . He seems to look different now. Probably got older/a trainer.
Jude Law: wonderful, wonderful actor. But... can someone explain to me why he's considered to be attractive? I just don't get it. At all. He's not hideous... but swooning? Why swoon?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 5:34 PM
I hate Ralph Fiennes with a passion.
I think this means we have to throw down?
Posted by aspyre | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 5:42 PM
Well, no. Shouldn't that bring us closer? You can have him.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 5:56 PM
Have you no sense of chivalry, woman? First she flings a glove in your face and demands that you confess that Fiennes is compelling or meet her at dawn. Then you duel.
Somedays I think I'm the only one reading the instructions around here.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:09 PM
Dueling is illegal; thus, in the venerable tradition of Hamilton and Burr, you meet for an interview at dawn.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:13 PM
I refuse to risk my life for icky Ralph Fiennes.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:31 PM
Who says you're risking your life?
Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:34 PM
No, no, no. If you don't want to risk your life, you admit that he's charming. If you keep on calling him icky, you have to back up the insult by dueling. Otherwise, my understanding is that aspyre is entitled to horsewhip you on the steps of your club.
You do have a club, don't you? With steps?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:35 PM
My health club.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:37 PM
Then everything's dandy, so long as aspyre has a horsewhip.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:38 PM
(Picturing myself on the steps of the HRC on 45th Street, expecting a blow...)
Ralph Fiennes takes himself waaay too seriously. And he's always getting naked in every film he's in, which, you know, normally I wouldn't object to. But somehow with him there's this tone of "I'm such a European actor, giving you a full frontal because I'm so very European and deep and serious.
Ewan McGregor takes his clothes off all the time, too, but it just seems fun.
You know?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:53 PM
"
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 6:53 PM
Where do you work? I'm in the MetLife Building.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 7:01 PM
Perhaps in this modern day and age, you can expect to be lashed while on the step-mill inside your gym. To save yourself, take up aerobics. (Unless you go in for the really butch brand of personal trainer, in which case maybe you should just o around insulting people's film star of choice.)
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 5-05 7:27 PM
I think I'd have to be paid to whip people, and it hardly conveys the artistic superiority of an actor to brutalize a fellow sentient being. Ewan MacGregor's persona is collegiate boy, though I enjoy seeing him naked as much as the next girl. Ralph has existential ambitions beyond film, and seems to consider the ramifications of his characters more. He's started doing light & forgettable comedies because he doesn't want to be bound to agonizing dramas, but his range as an actor, (Quiz Show, Strange Days, Sunshine, and yes, The English Patient) astounds me. Incidentally, Cary Grant is his hero.
Posted by aspyre | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 5:00 AM
Also, Hugh Jackman can (and should) sing. There aren't enough musicals being made.
Posted by aspyre | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 5:02 AM
As long as Moulin Rouge, which made me motion sick, is excluded from the definition of 'musical', I agree heartily.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 6:42 AM
"Then everything's dandy, so long as aspyre has a horsewhip."
Also foppish.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 7:12 AM
I work on 53rd Street at the moment, but I prefer the 45th Street one to the 57th Street one.
Did you see Sunshine? I'll never get that three hours of my life back. May be the worst film I've ever seen. And it was all Ralph's fault.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 7:29 AM
I have never been to NYC as an adult. I grew up in a small town in South Dakota. To me, Minneapolis/St. Paul is "The Cities." And it's a big metro area. But reading people nonchalantly discuss 57th street and realizing that it's still just downtown in NYC snaps me out of my "I live in a big city" haze. 57th street in Minneapolis is actually in a suburb. Geez.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 7:44 AM
Heh. I actually live up in the 200s.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 7:45 AM
Is that Inwood? Mom's from Inwood.
(And isn't 57th midtown, really?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 7:50 AM
I know roughly where 57th in Manhattan is, since I remember I walked from a subway stop in the 40s north along the left side of central park to a theater in the 90s to watch a Kurosawa movie once when I was in New York for a job interview for which I was ill-prepared, which is too bad since it would have brought in mad ca$h.
The movie was good, though, and I saw a bunch of short films by Joseph Cornell accompanied by music by John Zorn.
That's my story!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 8:01 AM
Dude! What street is she from?
And Wolfson -- the 'left' side of Central Park? Those of us who occasionally face in different directions refer to it as the west side of the Park.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 8:03 AM
Whatever. I said I was walking north, didn't I?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 8:05 AM
Live by the nitpick, die by the nitpick.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 8:11 AM
I lived in Chicago for a while, near Broadway and Belmont, but I'm not sure I'd remember where anything else in the city is.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 8:27 AM
Slow day today, wot?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:12 AM
Yeah, wtf.
When were you in chicago, ac? You weren't a lincoln park trixie, right?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:12 AM
Did you see Sunshine? I'll never get that three hours of my life back. May be the worst film I've ever seen. And it was all Ralph's fault.
Sunshine was pretty bad, but no one person could have been able to make it so bad. It was a team effort.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:36 AM
Whenever y'all refer to Sunshine, I think of Burnt by the Sun, and have to stop myself before defending it, because I haven't actually seen Sunshine.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:40 AM
I wasn't around for the early part of this thread, but if I had been I would have defended both Before Sunrise and Before Sunset.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:41 AM
So, what's doing with racketeering, w/d?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:42 AM
I'd tell you, but the portion of the exam I'm working on right now is about rape.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:44 AM
Burnt by the Sun is a very good movie. I'd also defend Before Sunrise but am mixed on Before Sunset.
There may be other movies with "Sun" in the title that I've seen, but I can't think of any off the top of my head right now.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:47 AM
I was there 92-94, just after college. My best friend at Amherst was a Chicagoan and I went back home with her, not wanting to return to NYC right away. I have no idea what an LP trixie is, so probably wasn't one. I lived on Briar, two blocks from the lake. I knew a bunch of actors--one of my roomates did Speech & Drama at Northwestern, and she and her friends were in a bunch of productions.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:53 AM
It's true that Sunshine's suckiness was so immense as to dwarf Ralph Fiennes's particular suckiness, and yet he played three or four different parts in it, so his share of suckiness was greater than anyone else's. He carried that suckiness on his shoulders.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:57 AM
Trixies on the web.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 9:58 AM
I do have a Kate Spade bag...
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:04 AM
re: 176. I'd like to defend them both too. Who wants to attack?
One gets the feeling the Trixie phenomenon has grown in the past few years. I live in Bucktown, which now is getting Hipster blacklash.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:14 AM
Hey, that's near where I live (border of wicker and humboldt parks).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:20 AM
not surprised. I'm on Milwaukee. I might actually be in Wicker Park instead of Bucktown; not sure where the dividing point is.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:22 AM
Nor am I. I think north of North?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:24 AM
In which case I'm in Wicker Park.
I'm in danger of blowing cover here. Hey -- anyone want my street address?
Actors I hate: Kevin Kline. I have no good reason for it.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:27 AM
Yeah, right. On Milwaukee between North and, say, Chicago. That uniquely identifies you, all right.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:33 AM
I was about to give my exact cross street, but deleted it.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 10:38 AM
I'm going to ring doorbells all weekend asking people "are you textualist?"
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 11:07 AM
If you find me, I'll admit it.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 05- 6-05 11:22 AM
Gotta organize the people of Milwaukee (avenue--there's a city of the same name) to protect tex's identity. "I am textualist!" "I am textualist!" "I am textualist!" etc.
It just occurred to me that the "I am Brian" scene from Life of may take off from Spartacus. Haven't seen Spartacus so don't know.
LB, I think Mom's still asleep but I'll ask her later. Now I should really read today's conference paper.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 05- 7-05 4:43 AM
OK, Nagle Ave. G-ma and G-pa lived on Dongan Place later, IIRC.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 05- 7-05 6:06 AM
That's not terribly near me, but a family of the Nagles live in my building. They've been in the neighborhood since the eighteenth century. Not that they have anything to show for it but their name on stuff.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 7-05 9:07 AM