Okay, re-reading I see ogged does not think the Beatles were bubblegum, but he dislikes them anyway.
I wonder if it was a case of extremely raised expectations? Before I saw "Jaws" I heard over and over again how great it was. When I finally saw it it was good, but it could never live up to the hype.
This book divides male pop music into two groups: the angry rebels and the sensitive mama's boys. The book tends to side with the sensitive mama's boys, like My Bloody Valentine and U2 of the Actung Baby era. Bono was so offended that U2 was listed as sensitive mama's boys that he gave interviews asserting his band's masculinity while promoting his next album.
You know what I hate? Mewling posts that natter on about the author's feelings toward pop music. At least this one wasn't earnest. Zero instruments, ha!
I assume you're neutral on the White Stripes (2 instruments, some wussiness; Jack White can sing covers of Dusty Springfield).
Dude, you have a categorical issue though, indicated by SB above. Define the difference between pop and rock. And saying, I knows it when I hears it, doesn't count for much.
I think you're allowed to not like that genre. I don't know if you're allowed to say that, in some objective sense, the whole artistic category sucks. But as I'm writing this, I recall from the Pet Sounds thread that you more or less acknowledged your appreciation of the technical mastery there, while still disliking it.
I'll freely confess that there are whole art forms I don't 'get,' but I can in some intellectual sense appreciate that they're hard to perform and clearly represent to some large portion of humanity a desirable aesthetic experience, so I wouldn't say they suck. I just wouldn't sit through them, is all.
Whoops, I meant 21. Anyway, the pan flute is not a wind instrument because a pan flute is also a bari sax. Save your breath, ogged. It's saxes all the way down.
a sense of humor about how the music they like sucks so bad.
I retain a love for early KISS that dates back to the late '70s, when I was a dues-paying private in the KISS Army. Had the patch on my jacket and everything. They call me Dr. Love. I've got the cure you're thinking of.
29, 30: Do you put Pearl Jam in the "I like it but it sucks" category? If we're allowed this category, isn't this just a discussion about why, in music as in restrooms, people hide their true (as perceived by ogged) motivations?
36: I actually don't think that the Pearl Jam of, say, Ten, sucks. I am, however, embarrassed that what's in it resonates with certain stupid parts of me.
I thought our earner of slols was a she. No? And I wouldn't put "irony" on the other side of the slash either. Townes Van Zandt on Abnormal and Boubacar Traore on Sa Golo are not (mostly) ironic, but neither are they earnest.
I was, actually, going to ask why for the second time someone here assumed I am a 'he.' Now that it's come up, I don't see why I should say. Does anyone else here?
I would, then, like to know what is on the other side of the slash from earnest. Or does earnestness not have an antonym? Is it like cheese, such that there is no opposite? Or, you know, hat?
What is on the other side of the slash? Hmm. Humor, surely. Also, a word so troublesome I regret, even before typing it, typing it: authenticity. Bwhahahaha!
To be honest, Adam, the only Beta Band song I've heard all the way through is "Round the Bend." I just did a quick Rhapsody listen to make sure the rest wasn't the Beach Boys.
To be honest, I don't like what I take to be 'pop' much either. I'm just not happy with the terms of analysis. Is 'pop' music just, you know, popular music you don't like?
There is broad appeal and there is mass appeal. Mass appeal is somewhat of a pejorative term, suggesting a kind of lowest common denominator and the music (or whatever) that caters thereto. Broad appeal refers to something much harder to dismiss -- an appeal that cuts across different demographics. Lots of different types of people have historically liked Beethoven, but die-hard Christina Aguilera fans are a fairly homogenous bunch. The "category" of "pop" requires at least this dinstinction.
The Beatles clearly have broad appeal. Not to sound too rhapsodic or anything, but their music has influenced artists, writers, musicians, intellectuals and non-intellectuals alike -- people of many ages, races and nationalities. It's totally cool not to like them, obviously. But I think it's apparent that by any objective definition that one can come up with, they don't suck.
I think what most people think of when they hear the word "pop" is something artificial. The term is appropriate; it's so insubstantial it's like a bubble to be burst at any moment. What we think of as "pop" tends to be crafted and/or approved by committees of business people with the intention of making a great deal of money, not by artists trying to communicate with other human beings. That's an off-putting idea. But not everything that a lot of people like is "pop". A whole lot of people like The Godfather and The Marriage of Figaro.
Sorry for such a long comment, but this is a subject I spend a great deal of time contemplating.
Mississipi John Hurt combines wussiness, authenticity, and mad guitar skillz to create the only country blues singer I want to be listening to right now.
Now, slightly seriously, are the rest of you not bothered by earnestness? Or mewling? Let's stipulate that some of us have a lower tolerance for these things, but surely everyone finds them objectionable?
Ogged, I figured you liked Gid Tanner and the Tar Heels.
As for mewling--check the Radiohead thread. When I'm listening to stuff, I sometimes think, "I can see how someone who was unsympathetic might find this mewling, and it would suck to be them, because then they wouldn't enjoy this awesome stuff."
Earnestness--come come, isn't it time we transcended this hipster irony? cf. Radiohead again.
This is tough. Earnestness in and of itself cannot be thought of as a flaw. Arthur Miller is pretty earnest, as is a great deal of Shakespeare.
Musically, someone like Elliot Smith is painfully earnest. As is Kurt Cobain. They're so earnest it hurts.
But I know what you're getting at. I think you're referring to not earnestness per se, but a pose of earnestness, a sweet-boy I-feel-your-pain type of rock-lite that has always been popular with the chippies. Also known as Coldplay.
1. Earnestness and mewling bother me when I identify them as earnest or mewling.
2. But it is clear that I identify earnestness and mewling differently than you.
3. Also, having identified them, they do not necessarily bother me enough to cause me to reject a song / band out of hand; they may be mitigated by other factors.
4. They do not in any case define a song as 'pop'.
An example of pop music that is neither earnest nor mewling:
They Might Be Giants, "Where do they make balloons?"
An example of earnest music that is not mewling: Bruce Springsteen, "Into the fire."
An example of mewling music that is earnest, but not pop: The American Boychoir, entire oeuvre.
I don't know what sense you're using it in, but I tend to think of "earnest" as an artist trying to be laid-bare honest, trying to say something authentic in spite of the risk of being laughed at as a sentimentalist or something.
Hmm, that's not how I mean it. Like I said upthread, Townes Van Zandt on Abnormal is certainly laid-bare, but I wouldn't call him earnest. Maybe what I mean is something like what you say: a disposition of seriousness where one believes that the person bearing the disposition hasn't earned the seriousness.
To the extent your differentiating between earnestness and authenticity, are you really just saying that you don't like music that sounds cliched, but does not recognize that it is a cliche?
SB, I would like to have some discussion of what "earnest" means because I, honestly, thought everyone was basically on the same page, but it turns out not to be true. It doesn't really matter what I, personally, think. The post was tongue-in-cheek, which I assume is obvious (not that I like "pop" music, but you understand).
Tripp, of all people, I thought you with your old-timey "rhythmic gymnastics is for fairies" would be with me here.
Google the hated Bobby Sherman and you will see I am definitely with you regarding bubblegum music, and especially the "boy bands" that came along. I never liked that.
Mostly I responded to you not liking the Beatles. At the time, "liking" the Beatles was a form of rebellion and was frowned upon by the establishment. While their style of music is rather melodic and rarely angry, they were still seen as edgy and rebellious. For example, gasp, they had long hair! So they were "masculine" for the time.
Over time I've started to like more and more of the harsh guitar sound of, say, 3rd Degree's Medication.
I really wish exbeforelast weren't so handicapped by the "little boxes," as she's the only person I know who has a lower tolerance for earnestness than I do, and would do a better job of explaining what it is, anyway.
89: I wasn't trying to derail the earnestness discussion. I was just stymied that we know now very well what you don't like (but not very well the why – hence earnestness etc.), but not so well, in positive terms, what you do appreciate.
I may have suggested that 'earnest' meant 'unironic', but I didn't mean it; I would, however, say that it is the opposite of ironic. That Jededidah Purdy guy who wrote the book attacking irony was earnest. Also sucky.
[Digression: Sadly, I cannot find a link to the relevant Tom the Dancing Bug cartoon. But while looking for it I did find this permalinkless site. Scroll down to 'sandwich'.]
But earnestness can be good in its place. Woody Guthrie was not earnest nor ironic. But Hank Williams could be earnest. Earnest is simple, straightforward standing up for what you believe in and what's right, and while that can be annoying as hell sometimes it's just what's called for.
Right, you've said very generally and abstractly what you don't like, but have been content to give particular examples of what you do. I don't mind trying to figure out the pattern, if there is one, but I wouldn't mind some help.
I know what I dislike about earnestness (earnesticity?) in writing: the deliberate, overly calm, manipulative prose that you imagine the author would read aloud while gazing at you intently.
I'm having a hard time thinking of a song that fits that description that doesn't suck for other reasons.
89, 93: I've also used "earnest" as a pejorative in describing art. (Also "sincere," which is why I suggested "insincerity" as an antonym.) But I don't think we really know what we're talking about here.
(How has nobody said anything about "the importance of " etc. yet?)
I'm beginning to think "earnest" simply means, more earnest than I feel like being right now or than I feel like being about this subject.
Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
How about Pearl Jam's Black as an earnest song? I think maybe I just don't like it when people think what they have to say is Very Important. Not sure.
As usual, I have to go out when the comments are rolling...
Good point--Pearl Jam is, like, the definition of earnest. Cobain had too much self-loathing to be earnest--and too much "can you believe I'm a star"? Pearl Jam: Earnest earnest earnest. Making soundtracks for Dead Man Walking with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a pretty earnest thing to do, too.
Peter Gabriel is earnest and I like it, as far as pop/rock music goes. He also benefits from that look-how-sucky-the-old-band-got-when-I-left syndrome (cf. David Lee Roth, Bill Clinton).
>Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
Earnestness is not nessesarily opposed to irony or multiple levels of meaning. See George Jones' He Stopped Loving Her today .
Good point. "She's Mine" is the same. There's dramatic irony here, but it's not the meaning the opposite of what you seem to say kind of irony that you find when, say, Johnny Rotten sings "I mean it, man."
Townes Van Zandt is awesome but has some moments of embarrassing amounts of what I would call "ernestness" See, for example, his recording of "Darcy Farrow"
So where do Joni Mitchell or Nina Simone (from your shuffle) fall on the ernest / not ernest scale?
I consider "You Turn Me on I'm a Radio" on of the greatest pure pop songs of all time, whereas "Woodstock" has stong elements of ernestness.
How do you categorize Nina Simone singing something like "Four Women" or "Mississippi Goddamn" (which are not ernest, but are outside of the standard ways in which emotion is expressed in rock music)? How about "Wild is the Wind"?
ogged, earnestness is meaning what you say. Irony is not meaning what you say, or in other words, earnestness with a moustache.
What you dislike is not earnestness, but fake earnestness -- that is, pretending that what you say is very heartfelt, when in fact it is a bunch of crap a canadian guy wrote and you sung, accompanied by a synthesizer. Often perfomed along with beating of the breast-plate.
According to this list, ogged listens to the Indigo Girls. And of course Pearl Jam. Pop, yes, earnest, yes, "wussy", yes. I wouldn't be surprised if he occasionally put on some John Denver (NTTAWWT). What are we arguing about?
Definitely on the beating of the breast-plate. Plenty of singers sing heartfelt songs written by other people; it's more the 'Look at me, I'm being deep! and emoting!!11!' that irks.
hats, scarves, Townes Van Zandt. The important issues of the day. Love, loss, the proper mechanisms for running, the meaning of words easily found in a dictionary. Whose cock is larger.
I've decided I'm glad I missed out on most of this discussion thus far. I imagine talking to Roger Kimball about the rocking roll is a similarly surreal experience.
Your definition of "earnest" seems to be the sort that takes Bono as its exemplum. It's ok to find that kind of whatever irritating and dislike it, but it's not ok to take the word "earnest" and use it for that purpose.
I have a jazz question. Should I be excited about seeing the following people whom I've never heard of: Geri Allen, Kenny Barron, Uri Caine, Randy Weston with Ray Drummond & Al Foster?
I also wish I'd been around for more of this thread.
Making soundtracks for Dead Man Walking with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a pretty earnest thing to do, too.
That was a good song, though.
Ogged's Most Hated Band: Head of Femur. Record release shows with 18 and 22-piece bands (or thereabouts, including, for the first, tubular! bells!), former member of Bright Eyes in the core band, potentially wimpy sounding singer (though not on all tracks).
I would propose that The The's Hank Williams tribute album, Hanky Panky, is earnest, and if it were not earnest—if it were a cynical former new-waver mocking the country star, or a bunch of ironic covers a la Cake's cover of "I Will Survive", or otherwise an instatiation of too-easy superciliousness—if it were not earnest, I say, it would have sucked. But it is earnest, and that is part of what makes it good.
(The Hank Williams sample over the outro to the last song on the album is a bit much, though.)
Sorry for the confusion – I know it's gender-neutral. My point was that for me, I reckon there are nothing but diminishing returns at the margin of Teh Gay.
I can't believe what comes out of my fingers here, sometimes. Blibbity de doona boona studebaker.
I think the Barron/Haden album has that reputation. But Barron is, in general, an excellent mainstream/modern pianist--more the quintessential sideman than someone known for his own work, but the one album under his leadership I have is quite good.
Allen and Caine are a little more avant-gardey--Caine plays in a sort of polystylistic way (he's best known for a bunch of avant-jazz interpretations of classical composers, at least one of which is actually good--I speak of the Mahler project, the Goldberg Variations one bugs the fuck out of me for some reason), Allen is more elliptical I think is the cliché I want to invoke. Weston is older but also on the free side--but in an African-influenced very rhythmic way. Drummond and Foster are one of the best rhythm sections around. I'd be excited.
My recollection is that "a big gay" was usually used on unfogged. (An FL contribution, I think.) I think use of "teh gay" (or "teh ghey") is recent, no?
"Lotion": we'd play a kind of unctuous if not greasy lounge jazz, yeah? Maybe the upthread mention of Morphine is exerting an undue influence on my terpsichurgy.
I should mention that I'm not too jealous of w/d this week, since I am getting to go to an interesting show at the Empty Bottle in Chicago Friday, and am meeting Wolfson and Kotsko for dinner beforehand. In case anyone's going to be in town for a wedding or something.
Sigh again. I remember seeing interesting music shows. The highlight of last weekend was Sunday afternoon with fifteen grade schoolers at an alcohol-free bowling alley celebrating Apostropher Jr's eighth birthday. I did, however, discover via the giant video screen over the lanes that every crappy bubblegum hit from the 70s and 80s has been redone by groups of acne-free teenagers in bright clothing.
I know nobody cares anymore, but baa made the list, so I answered (me in italics).
1. Video Killed the Radio Star Goofy, silly, so bad it's good, thumbs up!
2. No More Drama (Mary J. Blige) There's something about the sleepy, drawn-out vocals in R&B that makes me want to kill myself. It doesn't make my earnestometer go off though; maybe that's because black people are allowed to have emotions.
3. Miss Independent (Kelly Clarkson) No discernible content.
4. Sweet Child of Mine (Guns and Roses) So earnest it makes me laugh every time. But I love it.
5. Ganster's Paradise (Coolio) Wouldn't listen to it, but it doesn't suck. Unlike the Beatles. Not notably earnest.
6. Like A Prayer (Madonna) Not *even* earnest. Thumbs up!
7. In Da Club (50 Cent) I really don't know what to make of hip-hop. I don't even know what they're saying.
8. Smells Like Teen Spirit (Nirvana) Earnest, but self-deprecatingly so. Brilliant, in fact.
9. Hunger Strike (Temple of the Dog) Laughably earnest. But not mewling!
10. Mmmmm Bop (Hanson) No content, but that voice is right out.
11. Crazy in Love (Beyonce) Again, just does nothing for me. I have no reaction. I wouldn't want you to play it over and over on a first date though.
12. Born to Run (Springsteen) Hmm. The first tough call. Earnest, or authentic? Dunno. Love it.
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes) This, in my limited experience of the genre, is the epitome of a good pop song. Catchy, doesn't make any empty emotional claims, doesn't sound like the self-pitying bleat of a coddled and immature young man. Thumbs up!
14. Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) This seems to be from a different planet. I listen to it with anthropological interest.
15. Hungry Like the Wolf (Duran Duran) Also not even earnest. Just performance. Gotta admit, I like it.
16. Stand (R.E.M.) I'm not even going to re-listen to this. Is anything by R.E.M. *not* painfully earnest?
17. Ray of Light (Madonna) I hadn't heard it. I don't like it, but I don't want to kill her or myself when I hear it.
18. I Saw the Sign (Ace of Bace) Pure pop, does nothing for me. I guess we're supposed to want to sleep with the woman with the Nordic accent.
19. You're Still the One (Shania Twain) This is girl-mewling. Also kinda earnest. Too bad, because she's pretty hot.
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
21. Every Day is a Winding Road (Sheryl Crow) Catchy, has no soul, meh, I've half-enjoyed listening to it sometimes.
22. Love in an Elevator (Aerosmith) Gold old-fashioned rock music. I approve.
23. Don't Bring Me Down (Electric Light Orchestra) No. Whatever it is they're doing with their voices, I don't like it. No content, so not earnest.
24. Bust a Move (Young MC) This sounds fun. I approve.
25. Take a Chance on Me (ABBA) Of course I love ABBA, but it's impossible to make any objective judgements about ABBA, so this one doesn't count.
To add to 171 -- do you not know the original on which it is based, "Pasttime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder, which while full of earnestness is also a complex meditation on racial disharmony that has tough words for those on both sides of the racial divide?
Or at least "Amish Paradise"?
And doesn't knowledge of either or both of those songs reveal Coolio's attempt to be that much more awful?
Not dissin' REM (early REM, anyhow - they've badly, badly lost direction over the last few albums). I was fanatical about them up through, oh, Automatic for the People or so. Nonetheless, between the mumbling delivery and the elliptical lyrics, I maintain it's not so easy to begin separating the earnestness from the irony until LRP.
181: I like Fables of the Reconstruction myself. In things like this, I figure, go for the hard stuff. Murk murk murk, mumble mumble mumble. (And I haven't actually listened to any of this in a while.)
Which brings me neatly to a point... what about the B52s then? Can this be classified: I have loved the joie since I first heard them as a confused 12 year old with the radio beneath the bed covers...
We may be reaching the critical mass where comprehensibility vs. aesthetics is a close battle regarding nested comments. That would, however, eliminate much unintentional comedy.
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
I feel like this response is probably expected from the person who brought you "the grime of its wandering," but it doesn't seem fair to pistol-whip poor Sarah McLaughlin here. It's not like she actually expects men to like her music.
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
Agreed, this song is Not Good. It's one of life's great tragedies that SM had only two excellent albums in her (sez me – adjust downward if you must). So sad.
202: Kidding, I think. And, I think, no (I'm thinking only of Paranoid because no other Black Sabbath is necessary). They really mean the Iron Man to be that misunderstood kid in all of us, with superpowers. It roxors anyway. "Vengeacne from the grave, kills the people he once saved"--take that, mom! Grounded, shit.
Black Sabbath -> Melvins -> Earth (previous name of Black Sabbath) -> Boris and Sunn 0))). And where would we be without Julian Cope's bizarre sprechstimme (search for "and I do walk") in "My Wall"?
213: I'm going to claim that was subconsious genius instead of a stuipd tyop.
Dio? Really? Actually there was a guy in high school who always wore Dio shirts, with excerpts from the lyrics prominently displayed, so I guess he had fans. Still, I always figured Ozzy got what Peter Gabriel, David Lee Roth, and Bill Clinton had.
I'm largely with Joe O, in that I largely picked songs that I more-or-less like to fill out that list. Only exceptions In Da Club, which find catchy, but dislike, and Building a Mystery, which I should have replaced with that song from Sixpence None the Richer (but I thought no one would have heard of, and embarrassingly I couldn't remember the name of at the time). Also, kudos, Joe O for picking out Gangster's Paradise and Bizarre Love Triangle as particularly excellent songs on that list. You are the G all the little homies wanna be like!
Ogged,
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes) This, in my limited experience of the genre, is the epitome of a good pop song. Catchy, doesn't make any empty emotional claims, doesn't sound like the self-pitying bleat of a coddled and immature young man. Thumbs up!
Yes! Glad to see that the use of church bells didn't push it into the dread "too many instruments" category. Also, have you noticed that you have an extremely moralizing response to art. Would you like, e.g., "Stand" if (like opera) it were moon-man language and you didn't know what it meant. For all I know, the lyrics for the Magic Flute are all drawn from the diary of a nuclear-freeze advocating teenage girl, but that doesn;t make it bad...
I now know two (2) people who are prepared to deploy "kwashiorkor" in conversational context. SB, are you also prepared to give it to another team in charades?
I have the next example lined up, and this is trickier: Jethro Tull?
I feel silly for liking Thick as a Brick so much. But really their first few albums (Stand Up through TAAB inclusive) are good. I haven't heard any of the others. Take them at face value, m'man.
have you noticed that you have an extremely moralizing response to art
Depends on what you mean by moralizing, I guess. That's a slippery word for me. But yes, I do think of the work as a reflection of the character of the artist, and that has a lot to do with whether I can enjoy it.
Would you like, e.g., "Stand" if (like opera) it were moon-man language and you didn't know what it meant.
I listen to a lot of music with lyrics in languages I don't understand, and I'm always concerned that, if I knew what they were singing about, I would no longer be able to enjoy it.
What, did Judy write this post?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 9:56 AM
Is "Pop" here used in opposition to broad categories like "Jazz" and "Classical", or narrower ones like "Punk" and "Prog"?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 9:59 AM
Quote bloat. Sorry.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:00 AM
so you like your men to be "manly," huh...
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:01 AM
Just like he likes his women.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:06 AM
more than 2 instruments typically bad.
Guitar + bass + drums = typically bad? If you like the beta Band, you should check out some old Gomez.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:09 AM
Early Morphine is very good despite having three instruments.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:11 AM
Is one of those instruments a wind instrument?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:13 AM
Bari sax is not a wind instrument. It is a bari sax.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:14 AM
I do not like mewling wussies. I do not like guys who talk about their feelings.
C'mon Ogged, cut your schlong some slack. You're going to hurt its feelings.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:14 AM
Wow. First some amazon.com reviewer claims the days of ELP were the dark-ages of music and now ogged seems to think the Beatles were bubblegum?
Dude - bubblegum is for early adolescent girls. The Beatles were not bubblegum.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:19 AM
Okay, re-reading I see ogged does not think the Beatles were bubblegum, but he dislikes them anyway.
I wonder if it was a case of extremely raised expectations? Before I saw "Jaws" I heard over and over again how great it was. When I finally saw it it was good, but it could never live up to the hype.
Is that it?
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:22 AM
Tripp, of all people, I thought you with your old-timey "rhythmic gymnastics is for fairies" would be with me here.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:22 AM
I can't believe y'all aren't more grateful that I solved the mystery of why pop sucks. You're getting this stuff for free.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:25 AM
not fronted by mewling wussies
Ogged's ideal frontman.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:27 AM
Wow, the Brawny guy was in a band?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:28 AM
Good grief, he supposes we'd pay for criticism like this?
Personally I m still smarting from the Beatles jibe, but hey I liked King Crimson too. How many instruments were there?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:29 AM
This book divides male pop music into two groups: the angry rebels and the sensitive mama's boys. The book tends to side with the sensitive mama's boys, like My Bloody Valentine and U2 of the Actung Baby era. Bono was so offended that U2 was listed as sensitive mama's boys that he gave interviews asserting his band's masculinity while promoting his next album.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:37 AM
You know what I hate? Mewling posts that natter on about the author's feelings toward pop music. At least this one wasn't earnest. Zero instruments, ha!
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:37 AM
The band that recorded "Far Away (So Close)" had masculinity? Hey now, check your change.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:38 AM
At least this one wasn't earnest. Zero instruments, ha!
Why would you think he wasn't being earnest?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:39 AM
I don't think a capella fits ogged's conception of non-wussy.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:40 AM
I'm pretty sure that's Ogged on the left in that picture, back in his heavy days.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:42 AM
I assume you're neutral on the White Stripes (2 instruments, some wussiness; Jack White can sing covers of Dusty Springfield).
Dude, you have a categorical issue though, indicated by SB above. Define the difference between pop and rock. And saying, I knows it when I hears it, doesn't count for much.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:43 AM
This exchange with Chopper is what I'm thinking of when I say "pop."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:46 AM
By apostropher's logic in 22, ogged's favoritest one-instrument outfit ought to be this guy.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:48 AM
25: You like Pearl Jam, but not earnest bands? I have to go lie down.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:50 AM
That was you in 22. Also looking forward to your demonstration that the pan flute is not a wind instrument.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:51 AM
27: Note word "embarrassing."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:52 AM
No one seems to have a sense of humor about how the music they like sucks so bad.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:53 AM
I think you're allowed to not like that genre. I don't know if you're allowed to say that, in some objective sense, the whole artistic category sucks. But as I'm writing this, I recall from the Pet Sounds thread that you more or less acknowledged your appreciation of the technical mastery there, while still disliking it.
I'll freely confess that there are whole art forms I don't 'get,' but I can in some intellectual sense appreciate that they're hard to perform and clearly represent to some large portion of humanity a desirable aesthetic experience, so I wouldn't say they suck. I just wouldn't sit through them, is all.
There's a new book out about this problem, by John Carey, called What Good are the Arts?.
Well, of course you're allowed to say it sucks. You're just wrong.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:53 AM
Whoops, I meant 21. Anyway, the pan flute is not a wind instrument because a pan flute is also a bari sax. Save your breath, ogged. It's saxes all the way down.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:56 AM
I have much to learn.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 10:59 AM
a sense of humor about how the music they like sucks so bad.
I retain a love for early KISS that dates back to the late '70s, when I was a dues-paying private in the KISS Army. Had the patch on my jacket and everything. They call me Dr. Love. I've got the cure you're thinking of.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:00 AM
You sir, it's true, can never be accused of taking yourself too seriously.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:02 AM
29, 30: Do you put Pearl Jam in the "I like it but it sucks" category? If we're allowed this category, isn't this just a discussion about why, in music as in restrooms, people hide their true (as perceived by ogged) motivations?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:02 AM
I think you need a cross-tabulation diagram to express the relationships between insincerity/earnestness and rock/pop-ness.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:03 AM
What does insincerity have to do with anything?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:05 AM
Pretend he wrote "irony", and resume the exercise.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:06 AM
36: I actually don't think that the Pearl Jam of, say, Ten, sucks. I am, however, embarrassed that what's in it resonates with certain stupid parts of me.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:06 AM
Yeah, what SB said. Because I suspect there's a substantial Earnest Rock category, and an Ironic Pop category.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:07 AM
For that matter, is there a Sincere Irony category?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:08 AM
I thought our earner of slols was a she. No? And I wouldn't put "irony" on the other side of the slash either. Townes Van Zandt on Abnormal and Boubacar Traore on Sa Golo are not (mostly) ironic, but neither are they earnest.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:09 AM
I was, actually, going to ask why for the second time someone here assumed I am a 'he.' Now that it's come up, I don't see why I should say. Does anyone else here?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:12 AM
I thought our earner of slols was a she.
Pronouns suck! Sorry, s.
And I wouldn't put "irony" on the other side of the slash either.
Has the proper distinction to do with having vs. not having a sense of humor?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:13 AM
I do have a massive talking schlong. Think what you will.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:13 AM
I would, then, like to know what is on the other side of the slash from earnest. Or does earnestness not have an antonym? Is it like cheese, such that there is no opposite? Or, you know, hat?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:13 AM
Now that it's come up, I don't see why I should say. Does anyone else here?
No, I for one certainly don't.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:14 AM
more than 2 instruments typically bad.
I've got a posse of Gid Tanner's Skillet Lickers and Carolina Tar Heels who are looking to kick your ass over this.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:15 AM
Huh, why did I assume slol was a she? Interesting.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:16 AM
I said the instruments thing was a matter of taste.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:16 AM
So why the fuck did this post only come up on my RSS feed when there were already 49 comments?
Also, the Beta Band isn't earnest? Come now!
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:17 AM
What is on the other side of the slash? Hmm. Humor, surely. Also, a word so troublesome I regret, even before typing it, typing it: authenticity. Bwhahahaha!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:18 AM
To be honest, Adam, the only Beta Band song I've heard all the way through is "Round the Bend." I just did a quick Rhapsody listen to make sure the rest wasn't the Beach Boys.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:18 AM
You regret it because you think, what could be more 'earnest' than the concept of authenticity?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:19 AM
No, because it's so hard to define, and so often freighted with issues of prejudice, race, class, etc.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:20 AM
You don't like earnest music because earnesty lacks authenticity? Your cold, flabby cynic's heart wouldn't feed a baby vulture.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:21 AM
I know you're all just trying to hurt me because I've sussed the secret of pop's sucking.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:23 AM
What is on the other side of the slash?
Hetting, which apparently is slash with a moustache.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:25 AM
To be honest, I don't like what I take to be 'pop' much either. I'm just not happy with the terms of analysis. Is 'pop' music just, you know, popular music you don't like?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:25 AM
There is broad appeal and there is mass appeal. Mass appeal is somewhat of a pejorative term, suggesting a kind of lowest common denominator and the music (or whatever) that caters thereto. Broad appeal refers to something much harder to dismiss -- an appeal that cuts across different demographics. Lots of different types of people have historically liked Beethoven, but die-hard Christina Aguilera fans are a fairly homogenous bunch. The "category" of "pop" requires at least this dinstinction.
The Beatles clearly have broad appeal. Not to sound too rhapsodic or anything, but their music has influenced artists, writers, musicians, intellectuals and non-intellectuals alike -- people of many ages, races and nationalities. It's totally cool not to like them, obviously. But I think it's apparent that by any objective definition that one can come up with, they don't suck.
I think what most people think of when they hear the word "pop" is something artificial. The term is appropriate; it's so insubstantial it's like a bubble to be burst at any moment. What we think of as "pop" tends to be crafted and/or approved by committees of business people with the intention of making a great deal of money, not by artists trying to communicate with other human beings. That's an off-putting idea. But not everything that a lot of people like is "pop". A whole lot of people like The Godfather and The Marriage of Figaro.
Sorry for such a long comment, but this is a subject I spend a great deal of time contemplating.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:25 AM
Joe! You've come back! Hooray!
Joe Drymala is banned!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:26 AM
Mississipi John Hurt combines wussiness, authenticity, and mad guitar skillz to create the only country blues singer I want to be listening to right now.
Posted by Joe 0 | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:28 AM
'Twas this discussion that got the better of me.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:29 AM
I'm glad you're back, Joe.
Mississippi John Hurt is awesome.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:31 AM
Now, slightly seriously, are the rest of you not bothered by earnestness? Or mewling? Let's stipulate that some of us have a lower tolerance for these things, but surely everyone finds them objectionable?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:33 AM
Mississippi John Hurt is awesome.
But he's no Mississippi Gary.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:36 AM
Now, slightly seriously, are the rest of you not bothered by earnestness? Or mewling?
It is for this very reason that, since I was old enough to have any kind of taste I have found the Rolling Stones to be Brechmittel.
I suspect the example is not unique.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:36 AM
Ogged, I figured you liked Gid Tanner and the Tar Heels.
As for mewling--check the Radiohead thread. When I'm listening to stuff, I sometimes think, "I can see how someone who was unsympathetic might find this mewling, and it would suck to be them, because then they wouldn't enjoy this awesome stuff."
Earnestness--come come, isn't it time we transcended this hipster irony? cf. Radiohead again.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:37 AM
This is tough. Earnestness in and of itself cannot be thought of as a flaw. Arthur Miller is pretty earnest, as is a great deal of Shakespeare.
Musically, someone like Elliot Smith is painfully earnest. As is Kurt Cobain. They're so earnest it hurts.
But I know what you're getting at. I think you're referring to not earnestness per se, but a pose of earnestness, a sweet-boy I-feel-your-pain type of rock-lite that has always been popular with the chippies. Also known as Coldplay.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:39 AM
Radiohead, yes.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:39 AM
1. Earnestness and mewling bother me when I identify them as earnest or mewling.
2. But it is clear that I identify earnestness and mewling differently than you.
3. Also, having identified them, they do not necessarily bother me enough to cause me to reject a song / band out of hand; they may be mitigated by other factors.
4. They do not in any case define a song as 'pop'.
An example of pop music that is neither earnest nor mewling:
They Might Be Giants, "Where do they make balloons?"
An example of earnest music that is not mewling: Bruce Springsteen, "Into the fire."
An example of mewling music that is earnest, but not pop: The American Boychoir, entire oeuvre.
This is why I suggested a diagram.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:39 AM
a great deal of Shakespeare
Is Shakespeare ever earnest, in the sense I thought we were using "earnest"?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:40 AM
Slol, that's helpful; I didn't say anything about how much I hate clever music, like TMBG, because I do enjoy having some commenters.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:41 AM
I apologize for the poor formatting of that comment. Clearly I should not be allowed to play with html.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:41 AM
I don't know what sense you're using it in, but I tend to think of "earnest" as an artist trying to be laid-bare honest, trying to say something authentic in spite of the risk of being laughed at as a sentimentalist or something.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:42 AM
74: I don't think you like any kind of music.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:43 AM
Hmm, that's not how I mean it. Like I said upthread, Townes Van Zandt on Abnormal is certainly laid-bare, but I wouldn't call him earnest. Maybe what I mean is something like what you say: a disposition of seriousness where one believes that the person bearing the disposition hasn't earned the seriousness.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:43 AM
Earnestness's opposite is irony, to me.
(Please note that textualist's definition of opposites does not contradict this statement.)
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:43 AM
Slol, you're such a girl.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:44 AM
Not indicative of Shakespeare's earnestness or lack thereof, but I like this quote from Timon of Athens.
"More whore, more mischief first; I have given you earnest."
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:45 AM
We are headed in a frustrating via negativadirection here. It wouldn't be so frustrating if ogged were God, but I suspect he's not.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:45 AM
To the extent your differentiating between earnestness and authenticity, are you really just saying that you don't like music that sounds cliched, but does not recognize that it is a cliche?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:46 AM
74: Grrrrr.
Why do we hang out with you, anyway?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:46 AM
I'm pretty sure I should be offended by that, no matter what.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:47 AM
"Gleefully obnoxious cleverness" is awesome. So is gleefully obnoxious cleverness.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:47 AM
It wouldn't be so frustrating if ogged were God
Another candidate for Unfogged's slogan.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:48 AM
slol, couldn't resist.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:48 AM
SB, I would like to have some discussion of what "earnest" means because I, honestly, thought everyone was basically on the same page, but it turns out not to be true. It doesn't really matter what I, personally, think. The post was tongue-in-cheek, which I assume is obvious (not that I like "pop" music, but you understand).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:50 AM
ogged,
Tripp, of all people, I thought you with your old-timey "rhythmic gymnastics is for fairies" would be with me here.
Google the hated Bobby Sherman and you will see I am definitely with you regarding bubblegum music, and especially the "boy bands" that came along. I never liked that.
Mostly I responded to you not liking the Beatles. At the time, "liking" the Beatles was a form of rebellion and was frowned upon by the establishment. While their style of music is rather melodic and rarely angry, they were still seen as edgy and rebellious. For example, gasp, they had long hair! So they were "masculine" for the time.
Over time I've started to like more and more of the harsh guitar sound of, say, 3rd Degree's Medication.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:51 AM
Guitar, keyboard, drum... that's too much??
Ogged prefers his sitars unearnest and pure.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:52 AM
I really wish exbeforelast weren't so handicapped by the "little boxes," as she's the only person I know who has a lower tolerance for earnestness than I do, and would do a better job of explaining what it is, anyway.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:54 AM
89: I wasn't trying to derail the earnestness discussion. I was just stymied that we know now very well what you don't like (but not very well the why – hence earnestness etc.), but not so well, in positive terms, what you do appreciate.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:55 AM
But I've given examples in this thread of what I like. And linked to that post of what's on my player. Is it still so mysterious?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:56 AM
I may have suggested that 'earnest' meant 'unironic', but I didn't mean it; I would, however, say that it is the opposite of ironic. That Jededidah Purdy guy who wrote the book attacking irony was earnest. Also sucky.
[Digression: Sadly, I cannot find a link to the relevant Tom the Dancing Bug cartoon. But while looking for it I did find this permalinkless site. Scroll down to 'sandwich'.]
But earnestness can be good in its place. Woody Guthrie was not earnest nor ironic. But Hank Williams could be earnest. Earnest is simple, straightforward standing up for what you believe in and what's right, and while that can be annoying as hell sometimes it's just what's called for.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:59 AM
Right, you've said very generally and abstractly what you don't like, but have been content to give particular examples of what you do. I don't mind trying to figure out the pattern, if there is one, but I wouldn't mind some help.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:59 AM
Can you give an example of an over-earnest song?
I know what I dislike about earnestness (earnesticity?) in writing: the deliberate, overly calm, manipulative prose that you imagine the author would read aloud while gazing at you intently.
I'm having a hard time thinking of a song that fits that description that doesn't suck for other reasons.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 11:59 AM
89, 93: I've also used "earnest" as a pejorative in describing art. (Also "sincere," which is why I suggested "insincerity" as an antonym.) But I don't think we really know what we're talking about here.
(How has nobody said anything about "the importance of " etc. yet?)
I'm beginning to think "earnest" simply means, more earnest than I feel like being right now or than I feel like being about this subject.
Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:01 PM
97: Sounds like Bright Eyes! To my knowledge I have never heard Bright Eyes, and want to keep it that way.
(tip: dooce)
ps fastest 100 forever? Or are you all going to stop here, just to make me look silly?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:04 PM
Centurion!
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:05 PM
Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
Progress! Well said.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:05 PM
To my knowledge I have never heard Bright Eyes
You should at least hear this.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:07 PM
How about Pearl Jam's Black as an earnest song? I think maybe I just don't like it when people think what they have to say is Very Important. Not sure.
As usual, I have to go out when the comments are rolling...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:08 PM
apostropher, that song needed a melody.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:15 PM
Good point--Pearl Jam is, like, the definition of earnest. Cobain had too much self-loathing to be earnest--and too much "can you believe I'm a star"? Pearl Jam: Earnest earnest earnest. Making soundtracks for Dead Man Walking with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a pretty earnest thing to do, too.
Peter Gabriel is earnest and I like it, as far as pop/rock music goes. He also benefits from that look-how-sucky-the-old-band-got-when-I-left syndrome (cf. David Lee Roth, Bill Clinton).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:18 PM
>Specifically, I believe "earnestness" here implies an unforgivable ignorance of the layeredness of the topic or moment, at worst a willful obtuseness to multiplicity of meaning.
Earnestness is not nessesarily opposed to irony or multiple levels of meaning. See George Jones' He Stopped Loving Her today .
Posted by joe o | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:38 PM
Good point. "She's Mine" is the same. There's dramatic irony here, but it's not the meaning the opposite of what you seem to say kind of irony that you find when, say, Johnny Rotten sings "I mean it, man."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:44 PM
Townes Van Zandt is awesome but has some moments of embarrassing amounts of what I would call "ernestness" See, for example, his recording of "Darcy Farrow"
So where do Joni Mitchell or Nina Simone (from your shuffle) fall on the ernest / not ernest scale?
I consider "You Turn Me on I'm a Radio" on of the greatest pure pop songs of all time, whereas "Woodstock" has stong elements of ernestness.
How do you categorize Nina Simone singing something like "Four Women" or "Mississippi Goddamn" (which are not ernest, but are outside of the standard ways in which emotion is expressed in rock music)? How about "Wild is the Wind"?
Posted by NickS | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:59 PM
BTW, how do you feel about Smokey Robinson? Pop or not pop by your definition?
Posted by NickS | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 12:59 PM
There's a whole case of whup-ass sitting on my shelf, should you give the wrong answer.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:00 PM
ok, here is why were are confused:
ogged, earnestness is meaning what you say. Irony is not meaning what you say, or in other words, earnestness with a moustache.
What you dislike is not earnestness, but fake earnestness -- that is, pretending that what you say is very heartfelt, when in fact it is a bunch of crap a canadian guy wrote and you sung, accompanied by a synthesizer. Often perfomed along with beating of the breast-plate.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:05 PM
What text said.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:07 PM
Hah! Fake earnestness: Frankie goes to Hollywood, dude.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:09 PM
But what is pop? Or what is pop to ogged?
This feels like another situation ideal for the 25 question diagnostic.
Ogged, how would you rate the following?
1. Video Killed the Radio Star
2. No More Drama (Mary J. Blige)
3. Miss Independent (Kelly Clarkson)
4. Sweet Child of Mine (Guns and Roses)
5. Ganster's Paradise (Coolio)
6. Like A Prayer (Madonna)
7. In Da Club (50 Cent)
8. Smells Like Teen Spirit (Nirvana)
9. Hunger Strike (Temple of the Dog)
10. Mmmmm Bop (Hanson)
11. Crazy in Love (Beyonce)
12. Born to Run (Springsteen)
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes)
14. Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order)
15. Hungry Like the Wolf (Duran Duran)
16. Stand (R.E.M.)
17. Ray of Light (Madonna)
18. I Saw the Sign (Ace of Bace)
19. You're Still the One (Shania Twain)
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin)
21. Every Day is a Winding Road (Sheryl Crow)
22. Love in an Elevator (Aerosmith)
23. Don't Bring Me Down (Electric Light Orchestra)
24. Bust a Move (Young MC)
25. Take a Chance on Me (ABBA)
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:11 PM
According to this list, ogged listens to the Indigo Girls. And of course Pearl Jam. Pop, yes, earnest, yes, "wussy", yes. I wouldn't be surprised if he occasionally put on some John Denver (NTTAWWT). What are we arguing about?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:18 PM
111: horrible typo! horrible horrible! Must stop drinking at work.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:18 PM
Definitely on the beating of the breast-plate. Plenty of singers sing heartfelt songs written by other people; it's more the 'Look at me, I'm being deep! and emoting!!11!' that irks.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:18 PM
hats, scarves, Townes Van Zandt. The important issues of the day. Love, loss, the proper mechanisms for running, the meaning of words easily found in a dictionary. Whose cock is larger.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:20 PM
118 - 115. We are now in overtime.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:21 PM
Speaking of basketball and earnest singers who are also great who also sometimes sing songs written by other people:
What was Stevie Wonder doing at the game last night? Is it wrong for me to wonder?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:23 PM
Text, 118 is a beautiful comment.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:27 PM
thanks SB -- every once in a while, like a monkey on a typewriter.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:31 PM
REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED REDACTED. Anyway, I'll stop here before I reach SCMTim-levels of appreciation.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:40 PM
Too late, SB. You can't take back Teh Gay.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:56 PM
Of all the days to have the work internet connection be down.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:56 PM
What cala said at 117; definitely not what text said at 111. Still, what irks about what Cala describes is hard to formulate precisely.
ok, turning attention to baa's list...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 1:57 PM
Baa
I don't know about ogged but I am an easy grader.
1. Video Killed the Radio Star -6
2. No More Drama (Mary J. Blige)- n/a
3. Miss Independent (Kelly Clarkson)- n/a
4. Sweet Child of Mine (Guns and Roses) 7
5. Ganster's Paradise (Coolio) 9
6. Like A Prayer (Madonna) 7
7. In Da Club (50 Cent) 8
8. Smells Like Teen Spirit (Nirvana) 9
9. Hunger Strike (Temple of the Dog) n/a
10. Mmmmm Bop (Hanson) 6
11. Crazy in Love (Beyonce) 9
12. Born to Run (Springsteen) 9
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes) 8 warwick version 10
14. Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) 9
15. Hungry Like the Wolf (Duran Duran) 7
16. Stand (R.E.M.) 6
17. Ray of Light (Madonna) 8
18. I Saw the Sign (Ace of Bace) 8
19. You're Still the One (Shania Twain) n/a
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) 7
21. Every Day is a Winding Road (Sheryl Crow) 8
22. Love in an Elevator (Aerosmith) 6
23. Don't Bring Me Down (Electric Light Orchestra)8
24. Bust a Move (Young MC) 8
25. Take a Chance on Me (ABBA) 8
Posted by joe o | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:01 PM
There is broad appeal and there is mass appeal.
Robert Fripp has a similar formulation.
I've decided I'm glad I missed out on most of this discussion thus far. I imagine talking to Roger Kimball about the rocking roll is a similarly surreal experience.
Your definition of "earnest" seems to be the sort that takes Bono as its exemplum. It's ok to find that kind of whatever irritating and dislike it, but it's not ok to take the word "earnest" and use it for that purpose.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:05 PM
I have a jazz question. Should I be excited about seeing the following people whom I've never heard of: Geri Allen, Kenny Barron, Uri Caine, Randy Weston with Ray Drummond & Al Foster?
I also wish I'd been around for more of this thread.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:05 PM
Like I said, b-dub, I thought everyone used the word "earnest" in this sense. Post and learn.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:06 PM
w/d: yes, yes, yes, yes. Is there a choice involved? Does it depend on your tastes in any way? Howcum I don't get to live in New York?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:07 PM
Making soundtracks for Dead Man Walking with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a pretty earnest thing to do, too.
That was a good song, though.
Ogged's Most Hated Band: Head of Femur. Record release shows with 18 and 22-piece bands (or thereabouts, including, for the first, tubular! bells!), former member of Bright Eyes in the core band, potentially wimpy sounding singer (though not on all tracks).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:08 PM
I have an album with Kenny Baron and ... Charlie Haden? It's very ... polite.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:10 PM
Howcum I don't get to live in New York?
Because you are an academic. Upside: after tenure, you can sleep until noon.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:10 PM
Robert Fripp has a similar formulation.
I take that to be a compliment.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:11 PM
As opposed to all the hardworking people who blog and comment until noon.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:12 PM
Too late, SB. You can't take back Teh Gay.
Here I am, commenter of officially ambiguous gender, and it's a compliment to text that vaults me into Teh Gayosphere? Interesting.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:13 PM
Teh Gay is gender-neutral.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:14 PM
That should be "undetermined gender", really.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:14 PM
I would propose that The The's Hank Williams tribute album, Hanky Panky, is earnest, and if it were not earnest—if it were a cynical former new-waver mocking the country star, or a bunch of ironic covers a la Cake's cover of "I Will Survive", or otherwise an instatiation of too-easy superciliousness—if it were not earnest, I say, it would have sucked. But it is earnest, and that is part of what makes it good.
(The Hank Williams sample over the outro to the last song on the album is a bit much, though.)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:14 PM
135: neither a compliment nor abuse, merely (pointless) observation.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:15 PM
A choice involved? About six months ago, I chose to buy tickets to this event.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:20 PM
Teh Gay is gender-neutral
Sorry for the confusion – I know it's gender-neutral. My point was that for me, I reckon there are nothing but diminishing returns at the margin of Teh Gay.
I can't believe what comes out of my fingers here, sometimes. Blibbity de doona boona studebaker.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:23 PM
I didn't really know what I meant by the accusation, anyhoo.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:27 PM
I have bit my tongue so far, but I can maintain my silence no longer, people. It's spelled "Teh Ghey".
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:28 PM
I think the Barron/Haden album has that reputation. But Barron is, in general, an excellent mainstream/modern pianist--more the quintessential sideman than someone known for his own work, but the one album under his leadership I have is quite good.
Allen and Caine are a little more avant-gardey--Caine plays in a sort of polystylistic way (he's best known for a bunch of avant-jazz interpretations of classical composers, at least one of which is actually good--I speak of the Mahler project, the Goldberg Variations one bugs the fuck out of me for some reason), Allen is more elliptical I think is the cliché I want to invoke. Weston is older but also on the free side--but in an African-influenced very rhythmic way. Drummond and Foster are one of the best rhythm sections around. I'd be excited.
134: I knew that.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:29 PM
"instantiation". Forgive me.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:29 PM
Anyone up for forming a band called "Teh Teh"?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:30 PM
Sigh. "I have bitten..."
I make a lousy pedant.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:31 PM
Anyone up for forming a band called "Teh Teh"?
Nice, but as a courtesy to ac, we should probably call ourselves "Lotion".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:32 PM
What kind of music, and would we wear mustaches?
I always want to spell it "moustache".
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:33 PM
Apo -
My recollection is that "a big gay" was usually used on unfogged. (An FL contribution, I think.) I think use of "teh gay" (or "teh ghey") is recent, no?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:33 PM
If `motion' is the noun form of `move,' then "lotion"....
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:34 PM
I always want to spell it "moustache".
Joe, meet text.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:35 PM
"Lotion": we'd play a kind of unctuous if not greasy lounge jazz, yeah? Maybe the upthread mention of Morphine is exerting an undue influence on my terpsichurgy.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:35 PM
If it's "Lotion," we cover "Lust for Life."
I should mention that I'm not too jealous of w/d this week, since I am getting to go to an interesting show at the Empty Bottle in Chicago Friday, and am meeting Wolfson and Kotsko for dinner beforehand. In case anyone's going to be in town for a wedding or something.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:35 PM
153: awesome!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:36 PM
Thanks, Matt. I'll be in L.A. this weekend, in case any hot movie stars are reading.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:37 PM
I don't know what that makes ``notion'' or ``potion'', though.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:37 PM
If `motion' is the noun form of `move,' then "lotion"....
Is the noun form of "Louvre"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:37 PM
Nor do I know squat about quotation marks. See comment about html way upthread.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:38 PM
Yeah, a quick googlefight verified that "moustache" is Teh Perfrrrd. I've been taught otherwise, though, by liberal Darwinists.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:38 PM
According to OED,
15- (now chiefly U.S.) mustache
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:40 PM
Ah, and if flagon is the plural of dragon – no, wait. The pistol in the vassal, um. It'll come to me.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:41 PM
Sigh again. I remember seeing interesting music shows. The highlight of last weekend was Sunday afternoon with fifteen grade schoolers at an alcohol-free bowling alley celebrating Apostropher Jr's eighth birthday. I did, however, discover via the giant video screen over the lanes that every crappy bubblegum hit from the 70s and 80s has been redone by groups of acne-free teenagers in bright clothing.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:41 PM
I think the pistil is to do with the stamen.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:43 PM
According to OED
No imitating Wolfson!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:43 PM
'postropher, you might find this fresh-faced band's interpretation of an old classic of interest.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:43 PM
The pistil in the petal's in the flower with the power.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:44 PM
I know nobody cares anymore, but baa made the list, so I answered (me in italics).
1. Video Killed the Radio Star Goofy, silly, so bad it's good, thumbs up!
2. No More Drama (Mary J. Blige) There's something about the sleepy, drawn-out vocals in R&B that makes me want to kill myself. It doesn't make my earnestometer go off though; maybe that's because black people are allowed to have emotions.
3. Miss Independent (Kelly Clarkson) No discernible content.
4. Sweet Child of Mine (Guns and Roses) So earnest it makes me laugh every time. But I love it.
5. Ganster's Paradise (Coolio) Wouldn't listen to it, but it doesn't suck. Unlike the Beatles. Not notably earnest.
6. Like A Prayer (Madonna) Not *even* earnest. Thumbs up!
7. In Da Club (50 Cent) I really don't know what to make of hip-hop. I don't even know what they're saying.
8. Smells Like Teen Spirit (Nirvana) Earnest, but self-deprecatingly so. Brilliant, in fact.
9. Hunger Strike (Temple of the Dog) Laughably earnest. But not mewling!
10. Mmmmm Bop (Hanson) No content, but that voice is right out.
11. Crazy in Love (Beyonce) Again, just does nothing for me. I have no reaction. I wouldn't want you to play it over and over on a first date though.
12. Born to Run (Springsteen) Hmm. The first tough call. Earnest, or authentic? Dunno. Love it.
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes) This, in my limited experience of the genre, is the epitome of a good pop song. Catchy, doesn't make any empty emotional claims, doesn't sound like the self-pitying bleat of a coddled and immature young man. Thumbs up!
14. Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) This seems to be from a different planet. I listen to it with anthropological interest.
15. Hungry Like the Wolf (Duran Duran) Also not even earnest. Just performance. Gotta admit, I like it.
16. Stand (R.E.M.) I'm not even going to re-listen to this. Is anything by R.E.M. *not* painfully earnest?
17. Ray of Light (Madonna) I hadn't heard it. I don't like it, but I don't want to kill her or myself when I hear it.
18. I Saw the Sign (Ace of Bace) Pure pop, does nothing for me. I guess we're supposed to want to sleep with the woman with the Nordic accent.
19. You're Still the One (Shania Twain) This is girl-mewling. Also kinda earnest. Too bad, because she's pretty hot.
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
21. Every Day is a Winding Road (Sheryl Crow) Catchy, has no soul, meh, I've half-enjoyed listening to it sometimes.
22. Love in an Elevator (Aerosmith) Gold old-fashioned rock music. I approve.
23. Don't Bring Me Down (Electric Light Orchestra) No. Whatever it is they're doing with their voices, I don't like it. No content, so not earnest.
24. Bust a Move (Young MC) This sounds fun. I approve.
25. Take a Chance on Me (ABBA) Of course I love ABBA, but it's impossible to make any objective judgements about ABBA, so this one doesn't count.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:48 PM
Head spins, falls. Fetch the smelling salts!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:50 PM
16. Stand (R.E.M.) I'm not even going to re-listen to this. Is anything by R.E.M. *not* painfully earnest?
"Underneath the Bunker", from Life's Rich Pageant. Its presence takes the album from great to freaking great.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:52 PM
Damn! Is it earnest? I'm at work, so could barely hear the words.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:52 PM
It's hard to say whether anything from the first three albums is earnest or not, given the nigh-indecipherable lyrical delivery.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:53 PM
You talkin to me?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:53 PM
Always Something There etc. has good pop cred because it's a Burt Bacharach song. Which when I was 13 I didn't understand the significance of.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:54 PM
"Underneath the Bunker"
Hadn't ever heard it. Must admit, until he starts singing, that's a witty tune.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:55 PM
REM -- Is "Superman" painfully earnest?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:55 PM
To add to 171 -- do you not know the original on which it is based, "Pasttime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder, which while full of earnestness is also a complex meditation on racial disharmony that has tough words for those on both sides of the racial divide?
Or at least "Amish Paradise"?
And doesn't knowledge of either or both of those songs reveal Coolio's attempt to be that much more awful?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:55 PM
I hadn't heard the Coolio song before; didn't know anything about it. Just played some of it before I commented.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:56 PM
Superman not earnest. Also on LRP. The album that rules, rules, rules.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:56 PM
You talkin to me?
Not dissin' REM (early REM, anyhow - they've badly, badly lost direction over the last few albums). I was fanatical about them up through, oh, Automatic for the People or so. Nonetheless, between the mumbling delivery and the elliptical lyrics, I maintain it's not so easy to begin separating the earnestness from the irony until LRP.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:58 PM
181: I like Fables of the Reconstruction myself. In things like this, I figure, go for the hard stuff. Murk murk murk, mumble mumble mumble. (And I haven't actually listened to any of this in a while.)
"Superman" is a cover, isn't it?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:59 PM
Ok, listening to a bit more of that album (LRP), it does sound pretty good. Hadn't heard it. REM question answered.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:59 PM
I think REM started shooting up earnest heroin right before recording Green.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:59 PM
Ogged,
Why are you afraid of life?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:59 PM
Umm.. ahem Shiny happy people and earnest?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 2:59 PM
The truth hurts, Austro. Everybody hurts.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:00 PM
Everybody hurts some of the time, and some people hurt all of the time, but you can't hurt everybody all of the time.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:01 PM
Sometimes.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:01 PM
Re: 189
Also, you can't pick your friends' noses.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:02 PM
You can if you're a rhinoplastic surgeon.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:02 PM
yep, Thats me in the corner!
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:03 PM
It's a fair cop.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:05 PM
Re apostropher in 182: my 175 was to ogged's 173. The answer is, no, he wasn't talkin to me.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:05 PM
Which brings me neatly to a point... what about the B52s then? Can this be classified: I have loved the joie since I first heard them as a confused 12 year old with the radio beneath the bed covers...
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:06 PM
you can't hurt everybody all of the time
This shouldn't keep you from trying, though.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:07 PM
We may be reaching the critical mass where comprehensibility vs. aesthetics is a close battle regarding nested comments. That would, however, eliminate much unintentional comedy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:08 PM
And another thing I have never been able to work out. Is Black Sabbath to be taken a face value, or are they just taking the piss?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:09 PM
200!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:09 PM
Okay, since you answered the last list here are some specific songs that I'm curious about. I'll keep it to 10.
1: David Bowie -- Ziggy Stardust
2: Smokey Robinson -- Second that emotion
3: English Beat -- Tears of a Clown
4: The Zombies -- This will be our year
5: Spoon -- Fitted Shirt
6: Ken Stringfellow -- Here's to the future
7: Bootsy Collins -- Stretchin' Out (In A Rubber Band)
8: Nick Lowe -- So it goes
9: Big Star -- Sittin' in the back of a car
10: Bruce Cockburn -- People see through you
11: Warren Zevon -- Carmelita
(okay, that's 11).
Posted by NickS | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:09 PM
just taking the piss
I'm not sure how this translates into American.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:10 PM
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
I feel like this response is probably expected from the person who brought you "the grime of its wandering," but it doesn't seem fair to pistol-whip poor Sarah McLaughlin here. It's not like she actually expects men to like her music.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:10 PM
How about the Carpenters? They were once a red-hot avant-jazz band influenced by the Mothers and Coltrane, no lie.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:10 PM
20. Building a Mystery (Sarah McLaughlin) Unbearably earnest. Reaction: Shut the fuck up, nobody cares.
Agreed, this song is Not Good. It's one of life's great tragedies that SM had only two excellent albums in her (sez me – adjust downward if you must). So sad.
It's "McLachlan", by the way.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:10 PM
I'm not sure how this translates into American.
Taking Teh Pisss?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:11 PM
I'm not sure how this translates into American.
=pulling the leg.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:11 PM
199: face value, and loads of people, intelligent people, think they were doing great work, too.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:11 PM
202: Kidding, I think. And, I think, no (I'm thinking only of Paranoid because no other Black Sabbath is necessary). They really mean the Iron Man to be that misunderstood kid in all of us, with superpowers. It roxors anyway. "Vengeacne from the grave, kills the people he once saved"--take that, mom! Grounded, shit.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:12 PM
I'm all strung out on earnest heroin on the outskirts of town.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:12 PM
Nick, that one'll have to wait until later, as I can't constantly play music at work.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:13 PM
Ben, I used to think so too. seriously. I loved them still with Ronnie James Dio, but recently I have begun to wonder. Just askin.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:13 PM
Vengeacne
I had this when I bought Paranoid, with the emphasis on "venge."
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:13 PM
Dio has rocked for a long, long time.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:15 PM
You've got to bleed for the dancer!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:16 PM
202. What Ogged and Matt said. Otherwise known as "Extracting the Michael" for reasons totally unknown to me.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:16 PM
I love Dido! Oh, whoops.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:16 PM
Black Sabbath -> Melvins -> Earth (previous name of Black Sabbath) -> Boris and Sunn 0))). And where would we be without Julian Cope's bizarre sprechstimme (search for "and I do walk") in "My Wall"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:17 PM
"They'll tell you black is really white, the moon is just the sun at night.."
could be about this place.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:17 PM
213: I'm going to claim that was subconsious genius instead of a stuipd tyop.
Dio? Really? Actually there was a guy in high school who always wore Dio shirts, with excerpts from the lyrics prominently displayed, so I guess he had fans. Still, I always figured Ozzy got what Peter Gabriel, David Lee Roth, and Bill Clinton had.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:17 PM
Ok ... what did those three people all have?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:19 PM
Julian Cope's bizarre sprechstimme
womb-men!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:19 PM
Ben at 221, see 105.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:20 PM
Kwashiorkor, if I'm not mistaken.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:20 PM
Dio? Really?
No, Tenacious D.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:20 PM
221: see 105.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:20 PM
You speak the truth Matt, but at 15 I thought it just rocked.
I have the next example lined up, and this is trickier: Jethro Tull?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:21 PM
Ben, check out 105.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:21 PM
I'm largely with Joe O, in that I largely picked songs that I more-or-less like to fill out that list. Only exceptions In Da Club, which find catchy, but dislike, and Building a Mystery, which I should have replaced with that song from Sixpence None the Richer (but I thought no one would have heard of, and embarrassingly I couldn't remember the name of at the time). Also, kudos, Joe O for picking out Gangster's Paradise and Bizarre Love Triangle as particularly excellent songs on that list. You are the G all the little homies wanna be like!
Ogged,
13. Always Something There to Remind Me (Naked Eyes) This, in my limited experience of the genre, is the epitome of a good pop song. Catchy, doesn't make any empty emotional claims, doesn't sound like the self-pitying bleat of a coddled and immature young man. Thumbs up!
Yes! Glad to see that the use of church bells didn't push it into the dread "too many instruments" category. Also, have you noticed that you have an extremely moralizing response to art. Would you like, e.g., "Stand" if (like opera) it were moon-man language and you didn't know what it meant. For all I know, the lyrics for the Magic Flute are all drawn from the diary of a nuclear-freeze advocating teenage girl, but that doesn;t make it bad...
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:21 PM
I now know two (2) people who are prepared to deploy "kwashiorkor" in conversational context. SB, are you also prepared to give it to another team in charades?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:21 PM
Some people have told me that Jethro Tull is not taking the piss, but that story is too ridiculous to be believed.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:21 PM
Ben: Have you considered looking at 105?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:22 PM
I have the next example lined up, and this is trickier: Jethro Tull?
I feel silly for liking Thick as a Brick so much. But really their first few albums (Stand Up through TAAB inclusive) are good. I haven't heard any of the others. Take them at face value, m'man.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:22 PM
JT is not taking the piss.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
Ian Anderson on one leg playing the flute? Oh, definitely taking the piss, and marvelously so.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
Chinese proletariat confronts Communist Party - 9 comments
Pop music sucks - 230 and counting.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
Also, have you noticed that you have an extremely moralizing response to art.
I have noticed this, if he hasn't.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
I've got this weird feeling that I should look at 105...
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
Thick as a Brick, if nothing else, is hella ambitious.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:23 PM
Yeah, I do like Jethro Tull. I don't think they're kidding, but they're having a great time.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:24 PM
Ian Anderson on one leg playing the flute? Oh, definitely taking the piss, and marvelously so.
I think he's just an eccentric fellow.
He makes mad dough from his salmon operations these days.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:24 PM
105 is so three minutes ago.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:25 PM
For me Tull is just such fun, even when being *serious*.
But then being too old to rock and roll but too young to die brings a kind of melacholic clarity.
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:25 PM
I think the juxtaposition of David Lee Roth & Bill Clinton is timeless.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:25 PM
Apostropher--but Spongebob up a 2-year-old's ass: Only 2!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:26 PM
have you noticed that you have an extremely moralizing response to art
Depends on what you mean by moralizing, I guess. That's a slippery word for me. But yes, I do think of the work as a reflection of the character of the artist, and that has a lot to do with whether I can enjoy it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:26 PM
Would you like, e.g., "Stand" if (like opera) it were moon-man language and you didn't know what it meant.
I listen to a lot of music with lyrics in languages I don't understand, and I'm always concerned that, if I knew what they were singing about, I would no longer be able to enjoy it.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:26 PM
But then what about "Skating Away"... made me almost cry recently... how bout that for "not" earnest?
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:27 PM
Ogged's 240 is right re: Having a good time. I imputed the piss-taking too rashly.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:27 PM
jeez, this thread moves fast.
NickS at some low number above mentions the English Beat cover of Tears of a Clown. This is an excellent cover, and you should all listen to it now.
Also, ogged, what does it mean that earnestness is for you the key moral failing of a pop artists? Two points:
1. Dylan -- kinda earnest
2. "Do they know it's Christmas" -- earnest, but admirable!
3. I'm sending my love down a well.
4. Yes, REM is earnest, but earnestness here also correlates with increasing suck-a-tude. (most notably, in "losing my religion")
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:28 PM
But yes, I do think of the work as a reflection of the character of the artist,
This is an oddly earnest position to take—or one that relies on earnestness in the artists if not in their art.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:29 PM
There's a lot of refreshing going on, isn't there?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-05 3:29 PM
The artist doesn't have to be earnest to reveal his character, Ben.
Posted by