Tripp, if you're saying there's nothing Jobs can do that would actually help, that seems right. Yet it doesn't seem wrong for him to call and wish condolences, and once he called he probably feels socially obligated to make such an offer. If you're trying to put him anymore into the Rugen role, that's off base.
I just previewed and saw Ogged saying what I said, but shorter.
What has caused William Goldman's decline as a screenwriter? Even into the 90's, much of his work was teh r0xxs.
It's also permissible to write 'declasse' on the grounds that you don't feel like coding the accents. But one acccent is like, um, doing some sort of fancy thing but in a half-assed way. I don't do any fancy things so I can't tell.
OK, it's like saying "To who did you deliver the package?"
It illustrates one of the fundamental truths - human life is without price.
Jobs cannot bring the boy back. So he offers what? "Anything, anything he can do?"
I doubt it. He offers sympathy and that is it. Does anyone really think if the father said "You offer anything to help? Give me all your money. That would help a little" Jobs would do it?
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
The father said "It really lightened me a bit," so it must be good for something. In fact, your argument could be extended to any expression of sympathy or condolence. I think we all realize that those are worth something, even if they can't raise the dead.
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
A symbolic offer of solidarity? The means by which we assert our shared humanity in the face of tragedy? When you're grieving, do you expect people to say that there's no use crying over spilt milk?
Also, that movie is mad overrated. You hear me? Mad overrated.
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
i. We are human beings who appreciate each other's sympathy and empathy.
ii. It is gracious for Jobs to condescend (in the old-fashioned meaning of the word) to acknowledge the remote bad effects of his socially acceptable, but morally qualm-inducing, pursuit of wealth and power.
iii. It is evident that the father recognized i & ii and appreciated them; that is good.
Expressing empathy and sympathy to the parent of a dead child is the least we all should do, and I don't see why Jobs should be lauded for it.
The iPod is the connection of course. Without that Jobs would never have called the guy up. And Jobs assistant call the media to get the guy's phone number? Can't use google or the frigging phone book. Note. Call a reporter for the Times.
Jobs should take some of his private wealth and open a center in Philly for the prevention of subway crime. He should donate hours of his time like the teen's father is doing.
Nope. He has his assistant contact the media and then spends five minutes on a phone call. Big frigging deal. For all we know his assistant made the call.
Tripp, there's no mention of older folks hanging out with younger folks in this story. Nevertheless, it seems to have pushed you over the edge.
For all we know his assistant made the call.
Except that the story explicity says that Jobs made the call.
I don't see why Jobs should be lauded for it
Because he bears no responsibility for what happened and doesn't know the man, but still took the time to do something that's difficult, and apparently did it in such a way that he did give comfort to the father. Consider too that such a call could be botched, and done insensitively, but apparently Jobs did it well.
I'm kinda with Tripp on this one. It feels phony or... narcissistic. The man lost his son due to a robbery where they also stole the kid's shoes. And Jobs is calling.. because he's such a Great and Important Person that his sympathy will be a Valued Moment.
Basically, I guess I don't think of slolernr's ii) as something all that impressive.
I'll admit that it's totally uncharitable of me to think that way of Jobs. It's just that I can't think of another reason to ensure that the NYT knows about your phone call.
In fact, your argument could be extended to any expression of sympathy or condolence. I think we all realize that those are worth something, even if they can't raise the dead.
Expressions of sympathy are probably more notable in their absence than in their presence. In most cases, it's more that you would notice someone's failure to observe your grief rather than be specially comforted by standard responses. They are expected, and somewhat routine, in that sense. However, it's probably also true that every now and then someone says something that is particularly helpful.
But let's not slight that connection. When I walk down the street and see people taking pleasure in their iPods, I enjoy that, because it is enjoyable to see happy people. And I believe that Jobs, in the same circumstance, is entitled to a quantum of enjoyment more than I feel, because he was a mover in a chain of events that produced that happy moment.
If you accept that, and I do (with qualifications, caveats, etc.), then you might consider accepting that Jobs is entitled to feel some greater twinge of sorrow than I (or any other disinterested observer) over the iPod's having caused a deeply saddening event as well.
(As I write this I believe I am cribbing some of this chain of reasoning from Thomas Haskell. eb, are you out there?)
I'm open to argument on this point, but this is the thinking that informs my earlier comment.
Haskell's been on my "to read" list for a long time, but I've only actually read maybe 1/3 of Obejectivity is not Neutrality, and I haven't read the parts about responsibility (slol, I'm guessing that you're referring to those essays?)
One thing I've always wondered about him, since he has a reputation for being more philosophically-inclined than most historians, is whether philosophers read any of his essays?
Much as I think a lot of tech "change the world" talk is silly, it's not Pepsi silly. My mp3 player (not an iPod, Tripp), makes me a wee bit happier, on the whole, and over time, than I was before I had it.
And, of course, some tech really does change the world.
I'd argue that a lot of Macintosh programs have given lots of nonwealthy creative kids/young people access to a whole lot of sophisticated creative technology (Final Cut and Garage Band, for example), further democratizing processes which were previously available only to corporations or individuals with oodles of dough. So, sort of world-changing, a little bit.
48: I was thinking of the essays on Capitalism and the Humanitarian Sensibility, which came from a tete a tete (go on, correct my accents and punctuation) with David Brion Davis.
And judging by the deafening silence from the philosophers around here, the answer is "no." I know Alan Ryan reads him, and Kloppenberg, but Ryan may be unusual among philosophers.
Intriguing that Wolfson likes the mp3 player choice. I went with the flash player, with much less space. But it ways about 1 oz., it has FM radio, and I love it.
Rio's players are reputed to have very good sound quality, and they play a wide variety of formats. I have one of these myself. Lots of space and it doesn't way too much either.
One of my considerations was whether something would be easy to operate in the car, when I wouldn't be able to look at it. Thus the Karma with the joystick. (It also has the cradle, which makes it easier to connect to the car, etc. Perfect, actually.)
There was a short article on CNN the other day where they were interviewing the parents of the child who had been killed. One of the most awful ironies in this whole story is that the father commuted 4 hours to work every day just so he could move his family into a decent neighborhood.
Inigo: Offer me money!
Count Rugen: All that I have and more. Please...
Inigo: Offer me anything I ask for.
Count Rugen: Anything you want...
Inigo: [plunging his sword into Rugen's chest] I want my father back, you son of a bitch!
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:11 AM
You do realize that Jobs didn't actually kill the kid himself.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:14 AM
Does Tripp need a reason to quote from the Best Movie Evar? No.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:15 AM
That movie is so overrated.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:16 AM
Is not.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:17 AM
Tripp, if you're saying there's nothing Jobs can do that would actually help, that seems right. Yet it doesn't seem wrong for him to call and wish condolences, and once he called he probably feels socially obligated to make such an offer. If you're trying to put him anymore into the Rugen role, that's off base.
I just previewed and saw Ogged saying what I said, but shorter.
What has caused William Goldman's decline as a screenwriter? Even into the 90's, much of his work was teh r0xxs.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:18 AM
He probably finally figured it was declassé after winning the Nobel.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:19 AM
You do realize that Jobs didn't actually kill the kid himself.
Didn't he?
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:21 AM
Ah I see, I said Goldman but you responded as if I'd said Golding, which is a comedic misunderstanding.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:22 AM
Is too. But it's 'déclassé'.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:24 AM
Thanks for the correction, Weiner, but I can't figure out what you're saying "is too" to.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:26 AM
Is not.
(Parenthetical comment to defeat the mecha-sheep filter.)
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:26 AM
Next time I'll stick with "infra dig".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:26 AM
It's also permissible to write 'declasse' on the grounds that you don't feel like coding the accents. But one acccent is like, um, doing some sort of fancy thing but in a half-assed way. I don't do any fancy things so I can't tell.
OK, it's like saying "To who did you deliver the package?"
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:30 AM
except that "infra dig" would be 'deplatziert'
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:31 AM
Right, I understand. But why did you write "is too"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:33 AM
Austro, meine Suche nach «deplazieren» leiferte keine Treffer!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:36 AM
16: Odd as it is, I was agreeing with you (in 4).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:39 AM
Ah. I'm quite tired and beheadached, you see.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:41 AM
so get an Austrian "Wörterbuch"... without accents its the same as "deplace".
Also try a "t" before the "z".
Posted by Austro | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:45 AM
I did that too, no luck. Dict.leo.org does recognize "plazieren", though.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:49 AM
Is it too late to observe that indeed, as far as egomaniacal California-Zen-master robber-barons go, Jobs is an exceptionally decent human being?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 9:56 AM
The movie is not overrated.
It illustrates one of the fundamental truths - human life is without price.
Jobs cannot bring the boy back. So he offers what? "Anything, anything he can do?"
I doubt it. He offers sympathy and that is it. Does anyone really think if the father said "You offer anything to help? Give me all your money. That would help a little" Jobs would do it?
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:01 AM
The father said "It really lightened me a bit," so it must be good for something. In fact, your argument could be extended to any expression of sympathy or condolence. I think we all realize that those are worth something, even if they can't raise the dead.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:04 AM
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
A symbolic offer of solidarity? The means by which we assert our shared humanity in the face of tragedy? When you're grieving, do you expect people to say that there's no use crying over spilt milk?
Also, that movie is mad overrated. You hear me? Mad overrated.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:06 AM
If you know there is nothing you can do then what good is the offer to do something?
i. We are human beings who appreciate each other's sympathy and empathy.
ii. It is gracious for Jobs to condescend (in the old-fashioned meaning of the word) to acknowledge the remote bad effects of his socially acceptable, but morally qualm-inducing, pursuit of wealth and power.
iii. It is evident that the father recognized i & ii and appreciated them; that is good.
Oh, was this one of those flippant threads?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:10 AM
Exceptionally slow today, I see. (Hits self.)
Mad overrated.
Yet still pleasing.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:11 AM
I have written a poem called "Ben Wolfson is a philistine". It goes like this:
Ben Wolfson is a philistine
Is too, is too
Ben Wolfson is a philistine
Yup
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:15 AM
I have written a poem called "Ben Wolfson is a philistine"
must ... not ... bust ... rhymes ...
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:20 AM
Over-rated?
Not really sure what IMDB ratings are good for (absolutely nothing?), but a data point none the less. Two more data points (see 1987).
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:20 AM
More data.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:23 AM
What's that Larkin (I think) poem about how reading is for suckers?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:26 AM
"A Study of Reading Habits" (Scroll down).
I really like "Mr. Bleaney." Don't know what that person is thinking.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:32 AM
This person thinks that "crispen" sounds anything but silly?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:35 AM
The whole "I'm going to embetter one of Larkin's poems" thing is misconceived IMO. But you do get a lot of Larkin's poems in the original.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 10:38 AM
Expressing empathy and sympathy to the parent of a dead child is the least we all should do, and I don't see why Jobs should be lauded for it.
The iPod is the connection of course. Without that Jobs would never have called the guy up. And Jobs assistant call the media to get the guy's phone number? Can't use google or the frigging phone book. Note. Call a reporter for the Times.
Jobs should take some of his private wealth and open a center in Philly for the prevention of subway crime. He should donate hours of his time like the teen's father is doing.
Nope. He has his assistant contact the media and then spends five minutes on a phone call. Big frigging deal. For all we know his assistant made the call.
Why do we make celebrities out of rich CEOs?
CEOs fart and we claim it is Guy Lambardo.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 11:54 AM
Tripp, there's no mention of older folks hanging out with younger folks in this story. Nevertheless, it seems to have pushed you over the edge.
Except that the story explicity says that Jobs made the call.
I don't see why Jobs should be lauded for it
Because he bears no responsibility for what happened and doesn't know the man, but still took the time to do something that's difficult, and apparently did it in such a way that he did give comfort to the father. Consider too that such a call could be botched, and done insensitively, but apparently Jobs did it well.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 12:05 PM
I'm kinda with Tripp on this one. It feels phony or... narcissistic. The man lost his son due to a robbery where they also stole the kid's shoes. And Jobs is calling.. because he's such a Great and Important Person that his sympathy will be a Valued Moment.
Basically, I guess I don't think of slolernr's ii) as something all that impressive.
I'll admit that it's totally uncharitable of me to think that way of Jobs. It's just that I can't think of another reason to ensure that the NYT knows about your phone call.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 12:21 PM
In fact, your argument could be extended to any expression of sympathy or condolence. I think we all realize that those are worth something, even if they can't raise the dead.
Expressions of sympathy are probably more notable in their absence than in their presence. In most cases, it's more that you would notice someone's failure to observe your grief rather than be specially comforted by standard responses. They are expected, and somewhat routine, in that sense. However, it's probably also true that every now and then someone says something that is particularly helpful.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:01 PM
The iPod is the connection of course
But let's not slight that connection. When I walk down the street and see people taking pleasure in their iPods, I enjoy that, because it is enjoyable to see happy people. And I believe that Jobs, in the same circumstance, is entitled to a quantum of enjoyment more than I feel, because he was a mover in a chain of events that produced that happy moment.
If you accept that, and I do (with qualifications, caveats, etc.), then you might consider accepting that Jobs is entitled to feel some greater twinge of sorrow than I (or any other disinterested observer) over the iPod's having caused a deeply saddening event as well.
(As I write this I believe I am cribbing some of this chain of reasoning from Thomas Haskell. eb, are you out there?)
I'm open to argument on this point, but this is the thinking that informs my earlier comment.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:12 PM
ogged,
I suppose I am in curmudgeon-mode here, and I am certainly holding onto this thing, aren't I?
Grasping the nettle firmly I have to ask why we treat this like God sending a burning bush to Moses? Why is this in the news?
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:15 PM
I'm with slo.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:15 PM
Tripp, you're right that it shouldn't be news, but that doesn't mean that the act itself should be denigrated.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:19 PM
Jobs can feel whatever he feels, but I really don't get this 'cult of celebrity' thing.
Jobs lured Sculley away from Pepsi by asking ""Do you want to just sell sugared water for the rest of your life, or do you want to change the world?"
Talk about an ego trip. Why buy into it? Pepsi - iPod - it is all just pop culture.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:23 PM
ben,
Tripp, you're right that it shouldn't be news, but that doesn't mean that the act itself should be denigrated.
The act was denigrated when it made the Times.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:25 PM
Tripp, did Steve Jobs bite the head off your puppy? Your antipathy seems so … focused.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:30 PM
Me-ow, Tripp.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:31 PM
Haskell's been on my "to read" list for a long time, but I've only actually read maybe 1/3 of Obejectivity is not Neutrality, and I haven't read the parts about responsibility (slol, I'm guessing that you're referring to those essays?)
One thing I've always wondered about him, since he has a reputation for being more philosophically-inclined than most historians, is whether philosophers read any of his essays?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:34 PM
Pepsi - iPod - it is all just pop culture.
Much as I think a lot of tech "change the world" talk is silly, it's not Pepsi silly. My mp3 player (not an iPod, Tripp), makes me a wee bit happier, on the whole, and over time, than I was before I had it.
And, of course, some tech really does change the world.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:50 PM
And what is your mp3 player?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:53 PM
Here.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:55 PM
I'd argue that a lot of Macintosh programs have given lots of nonwealthy creative kids/young people access to a whole lot of sophisticated creative technology (Final Cut and Garage Band, for example), further democratizing processes which were previously available only to corporations or individuals with oodles of dough. So, sort of world-changing, a little bit.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:55 PM
Ah, an excellent choice.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 1:56 PM
48: I was thinking of the essays on Capitalism and the Humanitarian Sensibility, which came from a tete a tete (go on, correct my accents and punctuation) with David Brion Davis.
And judging by the deafening silence from the philosophers around here, the answer is "no." I know Alan Ryan reads him, and Kloppenberg, but Ryan may be unusual among philosophers.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:20 PM
Intriguing that Wolfson likes the mp3 player choice. I went with the flash player, with much less space. But it ways about 1 oz., it has FM radio, and I love it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:23 PM
Rio's players are reputed to have very good sound quality, and they play a wide variety of formats. I have one of these myself. Lots of space and it doesn't way too much either.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:25 PM
But it ways about 1 oz.
You understand that that isn't why Yglesias is highly esteemed, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:25 PM
One of my considerations was whether something would be easy to operate in the car, when I wouldn't be able to look at it. Thus the Karma with the joystick. (It also has the cradle, which makes it easier to connect to the car, etc. Perfect, actually.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:27 PM
Lots of space and it doesn't way too much either.
Wow.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:32 PM
Joe, read 55. It was purposeful.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:33 PM
Oh. Didn't see 55.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:33 PM
Ben's taste for the "Slim…but Powerful" defies categories.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 2:43 PM
The iPod is the transistor radio of the twenty-first century.
But - PCs, yeah. Interactive. Powerful.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07- 6-05 3:00 PM
There was a short article on CNN the other day where they were interviewing the parents of the child who had been killed. One of the most awful ironies in this whole story is that the father commuted 4 hours to work every day just so he could move his family into a decent neighborhood.
Posted by D | Link to this comment | 07-17-05 7:04 AM
Moral: never do a four-hour commute.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 07-17-05 10:28 AM
Real Moral: It sucks to be poor.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 07-17-05 1:27 PM
http://www.layersmagazine.com/features/feature_cs2/flea.htm
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 07-17-05 1:53 PM