That's the kind of thing that makes you wonder about some few libertarians -- the sense that they really think anarchy would be fun! "There I'd be, in my cave, with my trusty shotgun Bess, protecting my woman and my homestead. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, but if anyone tried to take what's mine, why, they'd find out who they were messing with." (Quote invented, and uncharitable.)
See, disaster conditions mean that it's legitimate to shoot people for property crime, which is cool!
On one hand, looting is a crime. On the other, we as a people were prepared to let the people who are now looters to die. We didn't offer means to evacuate these people without vehicles. They are alive now by luck. Our crime, it seems to me, is worse than theirs.
Further, if there was some assurance to these people that they were not right now in a struggle for their lives, they might not be looting so. They have no jobs now, no money, no possessions, and no assurance that they will be getting such. In that case, who the fuck is Glen Reynolds to say what's necessity? In all likliehood, these people are stealing TVs to barter/sell for food to feed themselves and their families.
Not uncharitable, but more fantasy sentiment than a pragmatic solution. Everyone imagines himself as the rugged cowboy, protecting the homestead against the invader; he doesn't imagine himself as the guy who nabbed a case of water and got shot by some other cowboy. It's just story-telling.
And yeah, I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but.... the storm didn't hit New Orleans dead on, but that's what was being predicted until 24 hours before. One would assume that any plans in place were predicated on the storm being a direct hit; so, like, wtf?!? went wrong in the planning if it's such a mess with a near miss?
LizardBreath and FL indirectly remind me of something. Who, in Glenn Reynolds' mind, should be doing the shooting? Is this a tort issue (lack of proportionality, can we set up automatic shot guns to shoot the looters?)? The answer should be no, duh.
Or are we expecting the guard and police to be doing this? In which case Labs' concerns about due process are the main things to worry about.
The preparations for the storm worked out pretty well. Up until the levees broke, and the city started flooding. IIRC, there were only 3-4 inches of water in the city at that point. For a study in how everything went wrong, look at the Tulane website. After the storm had passed, things were OKish. Then the levees (and all hell) broke loose. Pumps failed, and things went to hell in a handbasket pretty quickly.
And the levees breaking was not exactly a huge surprise.
On a more important note, click Ogged's link to "Waterworld." With what confidence can you say that this movie will suck if you know nothing about it other than the names of its characters? I see names like Mariner, Drifter, Gatesman, Enforcer, and Elder/Survivor and think I'm in for a long night, probably at some undergraduate dance recital.
That's what happened to my friend's house. It survived the hurricane OK but was wiped out in the flood. She's far more upset than she would have been had it been destroyed by Katrina. I can't blame her.
I see names like Mariner, Drifter, Gatesman, Enforcer, and Elder/Survivor and think I'm in for a long night, probably at some undergraduate dance recital.
If that line by itself doesn't get you a date, there is no justice in this world.
Up there with "shooting looters" in the hall of brilliant ideas has to be my roommate, who is pissed that countries we sent money to after the tsunami aren't rushing to donate to us now. I'm pointedly ignoring her repeated IMs about it.
SCMT - she's not some crazy Libertarian, just someone who is uninformed and doesn't follow politics or any news beyond Natalee Holloway. That's what scares me when she starts saying stuff like this -- I've found she's usually a pretty accurate one person focus group for what "real people" think about issues. If it were Jonah Goldberg saying it, I wouldn't care.
I agree with all that's been said re: looters. However, it also needs be said that the kid walking out of the store, arms full of Nikes, is an asshole.
So, I think, and Cala's link demonstrates, that the breakdown of civil order in the wake of the hurricane is a very bad thing. (Though there seems to be some doubt AOTW about whether a helicopter was fired on--the FAA says no aircraft reports being fired on.) It may even be appropriate to direct law-enforcement toward restoring order before proceeding with the evacuation.
But most people in the city aren't looting. And anyone who's fussing about looting rather than the need to evacuate the rest of the people (if you're talking about how looting is hindering the evacuation, fine) has messed up priorities.
Everyone read this from Amanda, right? About how the victims are going to get blamed for this? None of the stories on Google News' front page mentions that people who are left in the city may have had no way to leave. And DHS Chertoff apparenetly is in fact saying that the people who were left in the city "chose not to obey" the evacuation order.
That attitude, like the one that focuses on shooting looters first, demonstrates a hatred of Americans rather than legitimate concern.
Or maybe.. conscience salving? If you can convince yourself that everyone stayed behind only did so because they were willfully blind to the danger or wanting to have a hurricane party, then you don't have to worry about it. Plus, it's stupidly comforting: "If the hurricane came here, we'd be smart enough to leave, so we'd be safe!"
But good lord. It was taking 12 hours to get from New Orleans to Jackson, and that's reportedly a 3 hour drive. I can see why someone elderly or infirm or too poor to afford the gas/a hotel room/a car might not have gone. People do weather these things all the time.
Actually, with Chertoff, I think my vote is "trying to distract from Bush's slashing the budget for the levees and appointing a completely unqualified FEMA director." Government officials ought not to be salving their conscience. In fact, what Chertoff said would've been disgusting even if it were true.
I wasn't meaning conscience-salving as positive quality here, Matt.
Been thinking about it and if a hurricane blew up and hit my town, and me with no car, if Amtrak stopped running and Greyhound wouldn't send buses, I'd have a hard time getting out of here, too.
mm, understood about conscience-salving. And I think it's understandable, anyway; we want to think that we'll be taken care of if we help ourselves. Lots of people don't know about how difficult it was to evacuate anyway, but Chertoff really should.
Hope you never have to evacuate, Cala. Occasionally, thinking about all these disasters and threats etc., I catch myself thinking "I wonder when my turn will be." It's much nicer to think that if I'm careful (to remain white and rich) I can save myself.
Katrina update: The girlfriend's 1st cousin is a New Orleans cop. We just received word that the cops are running out of bullets. He and 20 other police grabbed enough bullets to get out of town and evacuated. People, gang members perhaps, have nabbed enough guns to out-gun the police.
There's gang fighting a few blocks from my house, downtown Baton Rouge. Officials have been evacuated. 4 miles away or so, 2 people have been shot at Wal-Mart. The guns at Sporting Authority have been looted.
Baton Rouge has been getting a little overcrowded, and gas isn't always easy to find.
I spent last night volunteering at a shelter, and it was crushing. 620 people sleeping on a hard gym floor, without enough pillows and blankets for everyone. We only gave out about 20 pillows while I was there. Many were lucky enough to have brought their own. There was enough food for last night, but the coming days is unsure. Everything is relying on donations, primarily through churches. That can't be kept up. I'm uncertain what they'll be doing for activities. We had people of all ages, lots of infants, and several geriatrics. Last night we were doing a good job of meeting special needs, but I don't think it can be kept up without federal aid. The shelter at I was at was a small community center: there are no showers, no laundry facilities, and no kitchen. In fact, there are 3 stalls and 3 sinks for each gender for all the 620 people.
...Newscasters on TV now are trying to calm people now, saying that things are under control. But we've heard police sirens every 15 minutes since Monday night.
Nothing is so bad it can't be fixed. I hope that national guard troops we're supposed to be getting in will make a big difference, and hopefully we'll be getting federal aid soon. I wonder where the FEMA shelters are right now; all seem to be being run by organizations like the Red Cross and surviving on donations.
I should report some more positives. The people last night were by and large terrific. I had expressed grief and people snapping from stress. Only two women were really showing signs of being overstressed. Even in that poor shelter, a hard gym floor with the lights on, people were grateful, and we got a lot of thanks. I don't know if I could have been coping so well as most of those people if it had been me. I did speak later to one girl, a bit younger than me, who had lost her house. She said it simply hadn't sunk in yet, and she expected to feel the despair when she finally saw what was left of her house.
...News just reported that FEMA has suspended rescue operations in New Orleans.
Here's what's killing me (and I forget who I read that made the point first): 9/11 was four years ago. Presumably, the DHS has been studying how to evacuate cities in case of, say, a dirty bomb attack, which would entail the exact same measures you'd take in this situation. Four years and god only knows how many dollars. This is the best we can do? WTF have they been doing in Washington all this time, aside from planning a big-ass party for the war? I'm floored.
That's what I've been writing about, apostropher. Judging from the rhetoric out of Washington, this is precisely the kind of thing that we supposedly have been getting super-prepared for: an entire city in ruins or contaminated, massive flows of refugees, and so on. But the Bush Administration's capacity to actually deliver the goods on most of the "war on terror" appears limited to tough-talking one liners. Good show at reassuring Americans and the world that we're ready for the worst, guys!
You weren't joking. I mean, he actually said that they should be shot.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:20 PM
Yeah, isn't that funny? I loves me some due process (among other things).
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:23 PM
You're a big pussy, you know that, Labs?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:26 PM
That's the kind of thing that makes you wonder about some few libertarians -- the sense that they really think anarchy would be fun! "There I'd be, in my cave, with my trusty shotgun Bess, protecting my woman and my homestead. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, but if anyone tried to take what's mine, why, they'd find out who they were messing with." (Quote invented, and uncharitable.)
See, disaster conditions mean that it's legitimate to shoot people for property crime, which is cool!
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:29 PM
LB-- what's also funny is that I know a guy who is now holed up in a building in New Orleans with a supply of food and some shotguns. Hooooweeeee!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:37 PM
Is that uncharitable? I can see the appeal of that. You could too, if you imagined Glenn looting your corner store.
(Which is to say, I don't think these looters should be shot, but let's not blind ourselves to the mulitfarious theoretical joys of shooting looters.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:38 PM
I know a guy who is now holed up in a building in New Orleans with a supply of food and some shotguns
Can he liveblog, do you think?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:39 PM
On one hand, looting is a crime. On the other, we as a people were prepared to let the people who are now looters to die. We didn't offer means to evacuate these people without vehicles. They are alive now by luck. Our crime, it seems to me, is worse than theirs.
Further, if there was some assurance to these people that they were not right now in a struggle for their lives, they might not be looting so. They have no jobs now, no money, no possessions, and no assurance that they will be getting such. In that case, who the fuck is Glen Reynolds to say what's necessity? In all likliehood, these people are stealing TVs to barter/sell for food to feed themselves and their families.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:43 PM
Not uncharitable, but more fantasy sentiment than a pragmatic solution. Everyone imagines himself as the rugged cowboy, protecting the homestead against the invader; he doesn't imagine himself as the guy who nabbed a case of water and got shot by some other cowboy. It's just story-telling.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:44 PM
And yeah, I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but.... the storm didn't hit New Orleans dead on, but that's what was being predicted until 24 hours before. One would assume that any plans in place were predicated on the storm being a direct hit; so, like, wtf?!? went wrong in the planning if it's such a mess with a near miss?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:47 PM
Ogged: Good thought. As an added bonus, he's probably drunk.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:48 PM
Louisiana: it's the state...of nature!
Let's send in Kostner to sort this out.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:52 PM
LizardBreath and FL indirectly remind me of something. Who, in Glenn Reynolds' mind, should be doing the shooting? Is this a tort issue (lack of proportionality, can we set up automatic shot guns to shoot the looters?)? The answer should be no, duh.
Or are we expecting the guard and police to be doing this? In which case Labs' concerns about due process are the main things to worry about.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:52 PM
You mean Cevin Kostner?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:52 PM
Cala,
The preparations for the storm worked out pretty well. Up until the levees broke, and the city started flooding. IIRC, there were only 3-4 inches of water in the city at that point. For a study in how everything went wrong, look at the Tulane website. After the storm had passed, things were OKish. Then the levees (and all hell) broke loose. Pumps failed, and things went to hell in a handbasket pretty quickly.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:54 PM
What, y'all don't think shooting looters is what they had in mind when they put "Sportsman's Paradise" on the licence plates?
Remember, this is a state whose own authors write that "he needed killin'" is a legal defense against murder.
Posted by Camera Obscura | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:56 PM
tweele, even before the levees broke, there was up to 10 feet in certain places. After the levees broke, some places went from 0 to 10.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 2:57 PM
Oh, and "not every young woman..." is priceless.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:12 PM
And the levees breaking was not exactly a huge surprise.
On a more important note, click Ogged's link to "Waterworld." With what confidence can you say that this movie will suck if you know nothing about it other than the names of its characters? I see names like Mariner, Drifter, Gatesman, Enforcer, and Elder/Survivor and think I'm in for a long night, probably at some undergraduate dance recital.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:13 PM
That's what happened to my friend's house. It survived the hurricane OK but was wiped out in the flood. She's far more upset than she would have been had it been destroyed by Katrina. I can't blame her.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:22 PM
I see names like Mariner, Drifter, Gatesman, Enforcer, and Elder/Survivor and think I'm in for a long night, probably at some undergraduate dance recital.
If that line by itself doesn't get you a date, there is no justice in this world.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:23 PM
It's a great line, but I'm having trouble imagining the situation in which it could be successfully deployed.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:29 PM
Up there with "shooting looters" in the hall of brilliant ideas has to be my roommate, who is pissed that countries we sent money to after the tsunami aren't rushing to donate to us now. I'm pointedly ignoring her repeated IMs about it.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:41 PM
There were some comments on Simmins' post about that. Inane to expect Sri Lanka to help out.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:44 PM
These are the same people who want a true flat tax - where everyone send a government a check for the exact same amount per head. Reds...whatever.
Posted by SomeCallMeTimf | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:47 PM
SCMT - she's not some crazy Libertarian, just someone who is uninformed and doesn't follow politics or any news beyond Natalee Holloway. That's what scares me when she starts saying stuff like this -- I've found she's usually a pretty accurate one person focus group for what "real people" think about issues. If it were Jonah Goldberg saying it, I wouldn't care.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 3:59 PM
I agree with all that's been said re: looters. However, it also needs be said that the kid walking out of the store, arms full of Nikes, is an asshole.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 4:05 PM
excuse me, but arkansas is the natural state, not louisiana. that's all.
Posted by larrybob | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 4:52 PM
the kid walking out of the store, arms full of Nikes, is an asshole
Actually, I just saw footage of a woman taking shoes who explained that walking through all the muck made shoes particularly important, so...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-31-05 6:53 PM
">http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050901/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome_evacuation_hk1"> Oh shit.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 6:45 AM
So, I think, and Cala's link demonstrates, that the breakdown of civil order in the wake of the hurricane is a very bad thing. (Though there seems to be some doubt AOTW about whether a helicopter was fired on--the FAA says no aircraft reports being fired on.) It may even be appropriate to direct law-enforcement toward restoring order before proceeding with the evacuation.
But most people in the city aren't looting. And anyone who's fussing about looting rather than the need to evacuate the rest of the people (if you're talking about how looting is hindering the evacuation, fine) has messed up priorities.
Everyone read this from Amanda, right? About how the victims are going to get blamed for this? None of the stories on Google News' front page mentions that people who are left in the city may have had no way to leave. And DHS Chertoff apparenetly is in fact saying that the people who were left in the city "chose not to obey" the evacuation order.
That attitude, like the one that focuses on shooting looters first, demonstrates a hatred of Americans rather than legitimate concern.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 9:38 AM
Or maybe.. conscience salving? If you can convince yourself that everyone stayed behind only did so because they were willfully blind to the danger or wanting to have a hurricane party, then you don't have to worry about it. Plus, it's stupidly comforting: "If the hurricane came here, we'd be smart enough to leave, so we'd be safe!"
But good lord. It was taking 12 hours to get from New Orleans to Jackson, and that's reportedly a 3 hour drive. I can see why someone elderly or infirm or too poor to afford the gas/a hotel room/a car might not have gone. People do weather these things all the time.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 9:52 AM
Actually, with Chertoff, I think my vote is "trying to distract from Bush's slashing the budget for the levees and appointing a completely unqualified FEMA director." Government officials ought not to be salving their conscience. In fact, what Chertoff said would've been disgusting even if it were true.
Shrill post underway at my blog.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 9:59 AM
I wasn't meaning conscience-salving as positive quality here, Matt.
Been thinking about it and if a hurricane blew up and hit my town, and me with no car, if Amtrak stopped running and Greyhound wouldn't send buses, I'd have a hard time getting out of here, too.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 10:06 AM
mm, understood about conscience-salving. And I think it's understandable, anyway; we want to think that we'll be taken care of if we help ourselves. Lots of people don't know about how difficult it was to evacuate anyway, but Chertoff really should.
Hope you never have to evacuate, Cala. Occasionally, thinking about all these disasters and threats etc., I catch myself thinking "I wonder when my turn will be." It's much nicer to think that if I'm careful (to remain white and rich) I can save myself.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 10:19 AM
Jesus Christ. Don't read any frequently updated sites (like Atrios) if you want to have a nice day.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 10:26 AM
Katrina update: The girlfriend's 1st cousin is a New Orleans cop. We just received word that the cops are running out of bullets. He and 20 other police grabbed enough bullets to get out of town and evacuated. People, gang members perhaps, have nabbed enough guns to out-gun the police.
There's gang fighting a few blocks from my house, downtown Baton Rouge. Officials have been evacuated. 4 miles away or so, 2 people have been shot at Wal-Mart. The guns at Sporting Authority have been looted.
Baton Rouge has been getting a little overcrowded, and gas isn't always easy to find.
I spent last night volunteering at a shelter, and it was crushing. 620 people sleeping on a hard gym floor, without enough pillows and blankets for everyone. We only gave out about 20 pillows while I was there. Many were lucky enough to have brought their own. There was enough food for last night, but the coming days is unsure. Everything is relying on donations, primarily through churches. That can't be kept up. I'm uncertain what they'll be doing for activities. We had people of all ages, lots of infants, and several geriatrics. Last night we were doing a good job of meeting special needs, but I don't think it can be kept up without federal aid. The shelter at I was at was a small community center: there are no showers, no laundry facilities, and no kitchen. In fact, there are 3 stalls and 3 sinks for each gender for all the 620 people.
...Newscasters on TV now are trying to calm people now, saying that things are under control. But we've heard police sirens every 15 minutes since Monday night.
Nothing is so bad it can't be fixed. I hope that national guard troops we're supposed to be getting in will make a big difference, and hopefully we'll be getting federal aid soon. I wonder where the FEMA shelters are right now; all seem to be being run by organizations like the Red Cross and surviving on donations.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 11:13 AM
I should report some more positives. The people last night were by and large terrific. I had expressed grief and people snapping from stress. Only two women were really showing signs of being overstressed. Even in that poor shelter, a hard gym floor with the lights on, people were grateful, and we got a lot of thanks. I don't know if I could have been coping so well as most of those people if it had been me. I did speak later to one girl, a bit younger than me, who had lost her house. She said it simply hadn't sunk in yet, and she expected to feel the despair when she finally saw what was left of her house.
...News just reported that FEMA has suspended rescue operations in New Orleans.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 11:43 AM
Thanks for the updates, Michael. Best wishes for dealing with what's got to be a difficult time for you too. I'm sure I speak for everyone here.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 11:52 AM
Yeah, absolutely.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 11:56 AM
Here's what's killing me (and I forget who I read that made the point first): 9/11 was four years ago. Presumably, the DHS has been studying how to evacuate cities in case of, say, a dirty bomb attack, which would entail the exact same measures you'd take in this situation. Four years and god only knows how many dollars. This is the best we can do? WTF have they been doing in Washington all this time, aside from planning a big-ass party for the war? I'm floored.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 11:56 AM
Thanks, guys. I should say that the police are saying that the reports of shootings and lootings I was getting (via radio) were rumors.
I did just hear that the damage estimate is now up to $90bn.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 12:04 PM
That's what I've been writing about, apostropher. Judging from the rhetoric out of Washington, this is precisely the kind of thing that we supposedly have been getting super-prepared for: an entire city in ruins or contaminated, massive flows of refugees, and so on. But the Bush Administration's capacity to actually deliver the goods on most of the "war on terror" appears limited to tough-talking one liners. Good show at reassuring Americans and the world that we're ready for the worst, guys!
Posted by Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09- 1-05 12:46 PM