Oof. I'll bet the night went steeply downhill from there, too. Two weeks, tops, left in that relationship. I wonder if he was already in trouble and making an unbelievably bad choice of an attempt to get back in good graces.
Y'know, if I thought there was even a 1% chance of getting a 'no' back, I'd certainly ask somewhere private.
OT, but one of the unfogged commenters was heading off to start his Freshman year at Tulane. Does anyone know where he is now? Here's hoping that he's safe.
Kudos to the guy for asking though. I think that a lot of men won't ask unless they know for sure that the woman will say yes. In ages past women sometimes got asked more than once.
Nowadays men seem to believe that there's no room for vulnerability, for taking a risk. Is "maybe" or "not yet" the worst thing one could hear?
I think that a lot of men won't ask unless they know for sure that the woman will say yes.
I thought that was pretty typical, anymore, that you didn't ask unless you knew for certain that she'd say yes. It's just not supposed to be a surprise, beyond maybe location and creativity of asking.
I thought that was pretty typical, anymore, that you didn't ask unless you knew for certain that she'd say yes. It's just not supposed to be a surprise, beyond maybe location and creativity of asking.
You know, I know this is normal now, but it seems awfully weird to me. If you've already agreed that you're going to get married, then the whole 'proposal' routine is just odd -- wasn't the actual proposal the vaguely awkward conversation the two of you had while watching TV about how you're planning to get married sometime, right?
(Although my perspective is a little off on this, because Mr. Breath did the proposal thing at the top of the Empire State Building without prior discussion*. So I'm not exactly certain how normal people do it these days.)
*Maybe not exactly without prior discussion. Mr. Breath claims that I came home from poker night a little lit up a couple of months before he asked me, shook him awake, and said "You know, if we get married we get gifts!", and then fell over and went to sleep. I don't remember this conversation, and suspect him of making it up.
One of my friends proposed to his girlfriend of three and a half months. It came as a complete surprise to her, and I remember her saying "I thought maybe he was going to break up with me!", which I remember thinking was a little weird. She said yes, and they're still together.
Wasn't the actual proposal the vaguely awkward conversation the two of you had while watching TV about how you're planning to get married sometime, right?
Nah, that's just a discussion. The proposal just formalizes that discussion, but I think anymore it would be weird to have the proposal without at least a discussion. As if the girl were just sitting around waiting for someone to decide to ask to marry her.
It came as a complete surprise to her, and I remember her saying "I thought maybe he was going to break up with me!", which I remember thinking was a little weird.
Not so weird. The same thought crossed my mind with Mr. Breath (not for all that long, but it did), and we'd been dating almost two years. The guy you're dating starts getting all weird and tense and won't tell you what's going on, you speculate about stuff.
I suppose. The weirder part was the extremely short amount of time they'd been dating, with all of the lack of communication and desperation that implied.
That is just screwed up (that she asked, and that he went along with it). It's a present (with symbolism attached, but a present). There is no context in which you're decently allowed to look at a present and say "Go spend more money on it."
Anyone you wouldn't marry with a ring out of the 25 cent vending machine -- save yourself the lawyers' fees and don't get married.
Don't sweat it, and don't let the witness's lawyer rattle you. They start giving you a hard time about your questions, give them the cold stare and say "Your objection has been made." It's you and the witness -- the other lawyer isn't even in the room.
I think that the spending real scrylla to buy a ring is a good and classy ritual (except, of course, when it's demanded). But I find the idea of buying a diamond ring appalling. I don't closely follow consumer politics, but the diamond trade is horrifying, and I'd like to one day be a classy guy without having supported it.
You really don't have to buy a diamond. Colored stones are perfectly acceptable anymore, given the growing public familiarity with the nastiness of blood diamonds. And there are other options. A couple I know was in New Mexico pre-engagement and came across a little shop where a guy made his own jewelry. For about fifty bucks each, they had the most beautiful rings made, and those are the ones they used. Don't be a sucka.
If I had it to do over again, I would probably go for a colored stone, or at least search out a certified non-blood diamond.
ALso, I would have sprung for platinum over the white gold, as three years on, the white gold is looking faintly brassy.
It should perhaps be noted that if you're one of those women who would like it to be a surprise, it is perhaps best not to ask your boyfriend "When are we going to get married?" on a monthly basis.
I personally think that the surprise proposal is antiquated, a relic of the bad old days when a young woman had no mission in life but to get herself proposed to (and also she couldn't pursue that mission in anything like a direct way). But I also recognize that this varies from person to person. A woman who would want a surprise proposal would also not be the kind of woman who would ever agree to marry me.
Here is how things went down between my wife of eight years and myself:
Me: Okay, so that's that. That's what we'll do.
Her: Yep.
Me: Oh, yeah, I guess I have to ask you know.
Her: I guess you do.
And so on.
And what did I do for an engagement ring? Nothing! Who wastes money on that kind of crap!
See, I always thought that colored stones were on the tacky side—they can make for good earrings and necklaces, but not rings. Non-blood diamonds, insofar as they exist, still bolster the diamond institutions that have convinced me that nondiamonds are less precious.
I think I'd prefer to give the girl a Fruit Loop and a hot-air balloon trip to Hong Kong or something.
One of my odder colleagues choreographed her own old-fashioned "surprise." She put a downpayment on a ring (a big ol' diamond, natch), and instructed her bf to pick up the payments. Then, when he proposed, (in a restaurant, ring brought in on dessert tray, champagne, etc.) she came in flashing the ring around and told us all how surprised she was. after telling all about the ring business a couple of months before. For a certain kind of woman (or couple), the proposal is now as ritualized as the wedding. only the divorce remains spontaneous...though predictable.
Matt Weiner! I would have a blogcrush on you except for the fact I think that you're mocking me, as I blush furiously over the 'anymore'. Is it really that regional? (I don't use 'yinz' and avoid the 'needs washed' construction.)
['Quoth the Steeler, "Anymore."' ???]
I like diamonds (and there's enough non-conflict ones to go around) for engagement rings. If it's supposed to be an engagement ring, colored stones just don't look engagementish. Forgoing the engagement ring is cool, but if you're going to bother with the whole tradition, it seems weird to substitute rubies.
By 'discussion', by the way, I don't mean a pre-asking so much as an expectation that everyone's on the same page re: long term plans. Maybe it's just a function of where most of my friends and I are in our lives; those who got married already are kind of young and it often coincided with finishing a master's/starting law school/need to talk anyway about where this thing is going.
I met a lawyer who once said "Riddle me this, Batman." before asking a question in a deposition. I think she was just used to saying that phrase before asking questions.
On the other hand, engagement ring selection should probably be done by the girlfriend because she is the one who is going to wear it. If she hates diamonds then she will tell you. If she couldn't imagine an engagement ring without a diamond, it isn't a good idea to try to weasal out of it if you can afford it.
What a dummy. What you do is take her out to dinner, go home for some sex, and then get turned down. OR, after being turned down at dinner, take her home and ask if a bj is out of the question.
A woman who insists on a diamond, and of a particular size, well.... The problem is, as was pointed out upthread, an old custom clashing with contemporary relationships. We associate the romance of proposal with furtiveness and surprise, but it doesn't make sense anymore for the surprise to attach to the desire to marry itself. So there aren't good rules about whether ring shopping should be done together, or in secret, etc. Personally, when I hear stories of elaborate and romantic games preceding a proposal, half of me thinks "how romantic!" and half of me thinks, "that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard." I split the difference in real life, sneaking away to meet with Ex's parents to get permission, then saying one day, while she and I were driving along, "So, you wanna get married?" YMMV.
Joe O has it. Short of months of deliberately ferrying your girlfriend to social occasions where people are wearing engagement rings, the only reliable way to find out what she's going to want to wear is to take her shopping! So the agreement to go ring shopping is in some ways the effective date of engagement.
Oh, and ogged? Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
A friend of mine has her husband's grandmother's ring. It's beautiful, and it doesn't support the contemporary diamond trade.
I would never ask anyoone to buy me a more expensive ring, but if I thought that the ring was too expensive or too big and flashy, I might ask to have it exchanged. If it was really garish, I might just say "no."
My Mom's ring is sapphire surrounded by small white diamonds set in white gold, and it's quite pretty.
I think that you get in trouble with some fo the colored stones, because they're too soft. (I don't remember whether the problem was with rubies or emeralds.)
Does anyone remember that Anne Shirley of Anne of Green Gables didn't care for diamonds once she learned that they were clear. She had always imagined that they would look like amethysts.
I dated a "not with that ring" woman for much longer than I should have. She was and is very cool, and well out of my league in every respect, but I still consider it a signal achievement to have not married her, and consider it a mark against my judgment that we dated as long as we did.
Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
Bah! You're still joining the family, and as a sign of respect, you let them make known their opinions and give their advice. "Asking permission" is perhaps no longer what happens, but you should still do it.
Personally, when I hear stories of elaborate and romantic games preceding a proposal, half of me thinks "how romantic!" and half of me thinks, "that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard."
One of my friends proposed to his girlfriend with the entire glee club singing in the background, at the final concert of his senior year, in front of the whole audience. That was pretty elaborate and nuts for planning.
Even the non-elaborate ones end up a bit cheesy and awkward, though. Of my friends, it tends to involve romantic walks for no good reason to locations 'where they met' or 'are romantic', but none of the guys have been terribly good at thinking up reasons to be there, so it gets very awkward, including the one that proposed outside in a snowdrift after a 20 minute walk in 25 degree weather.
We joke that she said yes just to get inside somewhere warm.
Does anyone remember that Anne Shirley of Anne of Green Gables didn't care for diamonds once she learned that they were clear. She had always imagined that they would look like amethysts.
Yes! And her engagement ring was a circlet of pearls!
Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
No, I'm with Ogged on this one. If I've learned anything from my two marriages, it's that you don't marry a person, you marry a family (including, unfortunately all their dramas and traumas). It's a show of respect.
When I talked to my first father-in-law to be, he laughed and said, "Well, I don't have any problem with it, of course, but I don't think you're getting a good deal."
I was taken a bit aback and asked, "Excuse me?"
"Financially, I mean. She's expensive. Like her mother. But best of luck and welcome to the family."
I don't know, I think my father-in-law would have been taken aback if I'd asked him first (and that my wife would have kicked my ass for presuming that I needed his permission — forget showing her father respect, I think it would be disrespectful to her).
This is part of my argument against getting engaged early in a relationship, but if you've known the family for a few years, by the time the engagement happens, both sides will probably feel it's about time.
Mrs. Davenport made we wait a week for an answer. I also 'sort of" asked her parents. I think I said something like "I would like to marry your daughter" which was waffly enough between asking and telling.
In many way I get along better with my inlaws rather than my own family.
If I've learned anything from my two marriages, it's that you don't marry a person, you marry a family.
This is my biggest fear, because it means that I'm screwed. My family is pretty crazy. I'd never marry into a family with my family's characteristics. I'd like to see some stability, but I'd always hoped that someday somebody would love me enough to say "I don't care that your family is nuts. It's you, I love" or something a little less cheesy but along those lines.
just to chime in lately: i think the discussion is important in an age where not necessarily everyone wants to get married. the marriage proposal tends to be a say-yes-or-it's-over kind of thing, and if your choices are propose, get turned down, and stop dating, or know before you propose that she's not really into the whole marriage thing or at least isn't into it right now, i think the former would be preferable.
spending money on engagement rings by people who aren't rich seems awkward to me. it's like, if you're going to spend a boatload of cash on a present for me, how about it be something i actually like, like, say, a trip to china or something cool. of course, some women want huge diamonds, but i think they're weird.
If you don't mind my asking - what do you mean by "crazy." If you really mean "quirky" I don't think that is much of a big deal. I mean everyone's family is quirky at the least.
Sadly, I don't think trying to find non-blood diamonds really gets at the issue -- you're still building up the overall diamond market. Very little Saudi oil actually makes its way into American cars, but every time you fill up you're still bolstering their finances because you've got a global market in a largely fungible commodity.
Repurposing family heirlooms strikes me as the ideal mix of classy and unlikely to lead to large-scale human suffering. It also seems to correctly capture the notion that the point of giving a valuable gift on the occassion of engagement is symbolic, rather than pecuniary.
Yglesias makes a nice recovery from the Volokh/gays debacle to get this one exactly right. Unless neither family has any heirlooms, in which case their brokedown genes don't really need passing on.
Heirlooms schmeirlooms, it seems to me you can always dig up something from "dear old Granny." Who's to care whether it comes from your Granny or someone else's via the pawn shop.
I mean crazy as in "has been psychotic." My mom's very clever, but she's probably bipolar and wouldn't take meds for a long time. She'd find a psychologist who thought they were odd. When she was a teenager, they thought she was schizophrenic, but diagnostic practice has changed a lot in the past several years. I'm not actually on speaking terms with her right now, but I know that when my Dad dies I'm going to have to pick up the pieces, because my Mom's gonna live until she's 90. More than you wanted to know, I'm sure.
And so you see, I would never marry someone with that kind of family history--Dad's mom is bipolar too--because that sort of assortative mating is just bad. Too much genetic loading.
Interestingly enough, my girlfriend is currently wearing her grandmother's engagement ring. In Georgia (where she's studying for a year) they don't have a strong "dating" concept—you're either single or engaged. Far worse than attracting the attraction of the Georgian men is attracting the curiosity of the Georgian older women, who simply cannot believe that a 25-year-old woman would show her unmarried self in public.
The experience of seeing her daughter wearing an engagement ring that did not mean that marriage was in her future was a somewhat dyspeptic experience for Susan's mother, I'm told.
Man, Susan should have written about that before she left. It was pretty funny all around. When she first told me that she needed a ring for Georgia, I said something oafish like, "Do I need to get you a fake ring or something?" upon hearing which (on a retelling) her mother flipped in all the predictable ways.
The best reaction was Tom's. He wasn't in on this Georgia strategy, so when he saw Susan wearing an engagement ring, he actually froze.
While I'm with you on not wanting to support the blood-diamond trade, repurposing family heirlooms can lead to other problems. Sure, you're in love now, but what happens if you have a nasty breakup down the road? Are you sure she'd give you back grandma's ring if you get divorced someday?
My mother has explicitly told me many times that I am not allowed to let any of her grandmother's jewelry go to my brothers' future wives. As the only daughter, I am inheriting all of the jewelry and am entrusted to pass on certain pieces to any daughters that my brothers have.
To clarify, the above post kind of makes my mother sound like a bitch. It's actually the opposite -- the reason she doesn't want the jewelry to go to my brothers' wives is because she was extremely close with her grandmother and the idea of the jewelry ever leaving the family would break her heart.
I met a Russian physics/engineering grad student who said he was quite shocked to find out that according to US race/ethnicity classifcations he needed to mark the box for "Caucasian" when filling in demographic information of various forms.
And thanks for the welcome back. I've actually been following along, but am cutting back on the comments for reasons similar to the ones Mitch Mills cited.
I hadn't seen that, that's depressing. Hitting the 13th bus when you're trying jump 22 doesn't exactly redound to the greater glory of the motherland. Still, sad.
My youngest sister's husband refused to buy her an engagement ring of any sort, and not even something extremely old-fashioned like a watch or a locket. She said he said it would be just like he was a dog, peeing on her to mark his territory.
While the words coming out of her mouth while she related this to us said she understood and agreed with his sentiment, the odd look on her face belied them. Something in her expression said that she thought he was being a little weird and/or cheap.
My other sister (on that side of my family) OTOH, threw a hissy b/c Mom would not drive six hours to Chicago on Mother's Day (after having just driven 8 hours home from working on rental property two days earlier) just to watch her fiance' present her with an engagement ring. A ring that she had picked out and sent everybody JPEGs of before Xmas, and already been wearing from time to time (we have photographic proof). For a second marriage for both parties involved. I tried to point out to her that Mom had been doing the "a daughter is engaged" thing for a quarter-century now, and it just really wasn't that big a deal to her any more.
My cousin's boyfriend proposed with a giant ring he made out of snow, complete with a rock the size of her head. When people would later ask her where her engagement ring was, she would say it melted (which it had). Seems like a good solution to me.
okay, I am jumping in just because I have had so many friends ask me if they are evil for wanting a ring of a certain sparkliness. I offered to give my groom(first wedding, second groom, had a scene a bit like described but in a nice resturant and i was asking and it was leap day and well, that relationship ran for another two years before it well and truly wrecked) the cash to pay for my platinum setting (he was just finishing his ph.d. about to start first job). He said no to the money, got a loan, I got my ring.
Another friend, bf bought box from tiffany's and gave her her grandmother's ring. Um, when they started getting eviction notices because he hadn't paid the rent, she moved back home. I think the ring can be an important indicator that a man can get his finances together and pay for something. This can be an important attribute in a happy marriage.
He said no to the money, got a loan, I got my ring.
Of course, that doesn't prove that he can 'get his finances together and pay for something', really. And I think being given an heirloom ring by and large doesn't mean the man is cheap, but more likely wants to honor a family tradition. There's a lot better indicators of financial responsibility.
Sadly, in these days of EZ Kredit, I think the purchase of a ring proves not much about a man's finances.
bostoniangirl,
Thanks for the answer. Yeah, that is a bit farther out on the spectrum than "putting potato chips on tuna salad" but I don't think it would be a deal breaker.
In my experience everyone's parents get a little more wacky with age and eventually everyone needs the skills to deal with that. It is good you've got those skills early. Also, like I said earlier, everyone's family tree has something going on somewhere or another. The heart loves what it loves. The rest is just details.
Not to belabor the point, but I'm honestly confused.
Blood diamonds = bad.
Buying a non-blood diamond from DeBeers = also bad (the point of MY's Saudi oil example)
But it is possible to get a diamond from, e.g., the Albertan diamond mines in Canada that is finished and polished either in Canada or in Israel (Israeli companies holding something like 20% of the diamond market, and non-DeBeers.), and be relatively certain about the quality of the labor practices.
How is this problematic? Does it increase the demand for blood diamonds somehow? By continuing the marketing tradition/social cachet of 'must-have-diamond-engagement-ring'? Doesn't passing on a an heirloom ring accomplish the same thing, in terms of reinforcing the social norm?
I realize ogged's joking about the not reproducing thing, but 'oh, just use an heirloom and be classy that way' isn't an option for a lot of people.
Or the heirloom may be otherwise inappropriate. I was offered my deceased mother's engagement ring, but my parents' marriage didn't exactly work out, and I wasn't sure I wanted to send the message, "Will you spend, oh, say, the next 10 years with me? That's all I got."
DeBeers has enough of the worldwide diamond supply that they can effectively set the prices to whatever they want by restricting supply. They've got hug amounts of diamonds in storage. They've cornered the market.
In addition, through shrewd advertising, they have convinced people that they must have diamond engagement rings, and, more recently, that the size of the diamond equals the size of the love.
Diamonds are terrible investments. The second-hand market is very low. Again, this situation is created by DeBeers advertising - a cheap secondhand diamond engagement ring is tainted by being cheap and having belonged to someone else.
And cubic zirconium - despite being almost exactly identical to diamond is also tainted by being incredible cheap.
I don't think the question is "bad" vs "good," but instead "tool" vs "rebel."
I've heard of resetting the stone for cases like yours, but what do I know? Like everyone else I bowed to social pressure, although back then 1/3 carat was big.
#105: WTF is going on in the world with the kids these days? Wouldn't you know the person pretty well before you got married, inc. whether he was responsible, had a job, could pull his financial weight, etc.? Somehow, this strikes me as similar to the "pretty princess" problem. Y'all know you're allowed to sleep with him without getting married, right?
#109: The number of Matts is getting unnerving. I saw 109, assumed it was Weiner, remembered him saying, "Hi Mom," at some previous point, assumed his mother had recently passed away, and was horrified by the easy reference to her death. Confusion dispelled, Weiner remains a monster.
And re #111, I guess I was under the impression that it was the stone that was the "essence" of the engagement ring, and so simply having the stone re-set wouldn't solve the "problem."
But it still seems like social conscience on the cheap: "no, no, you can't have a diamond mined from good sources because DeBeers has shitty business practices that taint your diamond through market forces, but I am free to use my heirloom diamond mined from 100% genuine apartheid labor because the bills were paid a long time ago."
I'll admit that it's silly social pressure, and certainly not something that's a deal-breaker in any case, but it seems just as silly to follow the 'tradition' of a diamond engagement ring but demand that no one else should.
Matt, I never got the tainted thing. If you reset it and add pretty side stones (maybe sapphires or something shiny, who cares, they sparkle) it's a way to honor your mom and have something new at the same time.
Cala--I think Yglesias's argument is something like this--the price of Albertan diamonds and the price of conflict/DeBeers diamonds is roughly the same and determined by supply and demand in the usual way, whatever that is. If you buy Albertan diamonds, you're driving up the price for diamonds in general. (By some small amount, but if it weren't for collective action problems this conversation wouldn't be necessary.) So your action redounds to the profit of DeBeers and the conflict diamond people, even though you're not directly giving them any money.
I don't know about the underlying facts and whether this is what Yglesias is really saying but that's how I interpret it. It's not a question of norm reinforcement, rather a question of being one of the many people who buy diamonds.
I guess this effect wouldn't occur if the Albertan diamond market were separated from the rest--then increased demand for Albertan diamonds would drive up their price but not the price of other diamonds. If everyone in the U.S. and Europe refused to buy non-Albertan diamonds that would probably have a real effect. But the only way I can imagine that happening is if there were effective bans.
(A friend of mine once proposed doing a bunch of DeBeers-type ads, except that the silhouettes around the diamonds would be child soldiers and people with their arms blown off in the conflicts. We never did come up with the tag line.)
To the people who suggest buying a colored stone instead – are they really mined that much more ethically than diamonds? Seriously, I don't know.
Unfortunately, I think that the number of people who care about the origin of conflict diamonds are in the minority. There is a jewelry store in the DC area (Charles Alexander?) that actually advertises its long ties with South African diamond mines and about how its connections to the mines ensure high quality and low prices. The radio ads are totally creepy – the voiceover actor even has a British accent, which I'm sure they think sounds refined and sophisticated but sounds like a celebration of imperialism to me.
The prettiest stone I've ever seen was a laboratory grown emerald. As far as I know the manufacturing is not "tainted." I like emeralds and the color and clarity of the lab grown one was spectacular.
Of sparkly pretty things, diamonds are probably not my favorite. Opals are pretty, rubies are pretty, sapphire is pretty, pearls are pretty, amethysts are pretty. Diamonds it really depends on the setting.
But they look like engagment rings, which I realize is a silly reason to prefer them for engagement rings, but where's the fun in showing off if you have to tell people it's an engagement ring?
Stupid DeBeers marketing. We need an opal campaign.
I have a friend who, at our crunchy, earnest liberal arts college, was always trying to pull off her big hair/make up/Florida debutante persona with a heavy dose of charming irony and self consciousness, which worked, mostly, and I forgave her for driving her car to the gym when it was a 20 minute walk, etc. But recently she announced that she wanted a diamond from her probable fiance to be, and yes she knew exactly why that was wrong, but she was an old fashioned girl, she joked self-deprecatingly. I thought it was a little gross.
Of all things, a Sarah Silverman routine was what did it for me with diamonds. I had always felt conflict diamonds were bad, of course, but when I went to see her in Jesus is Magic, she had this bit [you may not want to read further] about how diamonds grow at the base of African babies' spines like pearls in a clamshell and are mined by harvesting toddlers. The whole routine was disgusting and extreme (as you can guess if you've ever seen Sarah Silverman) but it actually did make a disturbingly valid point about how society lets things happen indirectly that it would never tolerate if it had to come face-to-face with the consequences.
What's this about some guy being the third Matt? There's that McGratten guy who some of you seemed familiar with, and then, just because it doesn't appear in my pseudonym...
There's a clear stone from Maine that is quite nice. It's not cubic zirconium, but I can't remember what it's called. It may be more appropriate for earrings than for rings though.
But they look like engagment rings, which I realize is a silly reason to prefer them for engagement rings, but where's the fun in showing off if you have to tell people it's an engagement ring?
Under the assumption that colored stones are less evilly produced (which a quick google seems to support, although I don't know why it should be true), a solitary stone on a simple ring on the left ring finger is going to look like an engagement ring regardless of the color. No one's ever been confused by mine. (Although I did have some ninny in law school ask me if my fiance was European, because she understood that colored stones were all right for engagement rings over there.)
That's true. Most of my friends who have opted for non-diamond solitaires have done a row of smaller stones (although one had sapphires mixed with diamonds, which kind of defeats the purpose, unless they're only blood diamonds if solitaire-sized).
I googled a bit and it seems that there's not been wars over sapphires, but still, the mining and environmental conditions are pretty crappy.
Ouch.
It could have been worse. She could have said yes and then called it off later (IYKWIM, AITYD).
Still though, ouch.
Do you think it was because he tried to do it in a small restaurant that will wrap food to go?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 10:44 PM
Oof. I'll bet the night went steeply downhill from there, too. Two weeks, tops, left in that relationship. I wonder if he was already in trouble and making an unbelievably bad choice of an attempt to get back in good graces.
Y'know, if I thought there was even a 1% chance of getting a 'no' back, I'd certainly ask somewhere private.
Ouch.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 10:56 PM
Do you think it was because he tried to do it in a small restaurant that will wrap food to go?
Not only that, but they were both wearing shorts and tank tops.
(Just as I was about to ignore the rest of your comment, the Ex called. Hmm.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:00 PM
OT, but one of the unfogged commenters was heading off to start his Freshman year at Tulane. Does anyone know where he is now? Here's hoping that he's safe.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:16 PM
Bostongirl - She's OK and posting in this thread.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:18 PM
That's L., a she, who checked in a few minutes ago.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:18 PM
Now you're just making shit up, ogged. Are you just transcribing scripts from Desperate Housewives, or are these at least your own inventions?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:35 PM
If I were making it up, she would have put the ring back in the bag, stood up, lifted her shirt, said "Say goodbye" and then walked out.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:39 PM
And then the whole restaurant would have thrown up their hands and yelled "Titties!" in unison.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:51 PM
Given that I was the only other person in the restaurant, you're absolutely right (though the canonical line is "Titties! Hooray!").
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:53 PM
Was she cute? How's your rebound?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:57 PM
It doesn't matter, he was immense and muscle-y.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-28-05 11:59 PM
It doesn't matter, he was immense and muscle-y.
So then you're going to ask him out?
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:01 AM
Right, the perfect ending would be that after her flash and exit, I would pipe up from across the restaurant, "Dude, I'll take it."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:02 AM
Heh.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:04 AM
"Dude, I'll take it."
My but you do hang your fruit so enticingly low . . .
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:04 AM
You would probably be giving him his one chuckle throughout the entire miserable evening, too.
There's a short story in this.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:06 AM
Drat, too low, apparently.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:06 AM
Thanks for the update on L.
Kudos to the guy for asking though. I think that a lot of men won't ask unless they know for sure that the woman will say yes. In ages past women sometimes got asked more than once.
Nowadays men seem to believe that there's no room for vulnerability, for taking a risk. Is "maybe" or "not yet" the worst thing one could hear?
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:48 AM
I think I would only hear the first two letters of "not yet".
Posted by Doug | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:46 AM
Is "maybe" or "not yet" the worst thing one could hear?
Like Doug said, only the second and third worst things one could hear, respectively.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:43 AM
I think that a lot of men won't ask unless they know for sure that the woman will say yes.
I thought that was pretty typical, anymore, that you didn't ask unless you knew for certain that she'd say yes. It's just not supposed to be a surprise, beyond maybe location and creativity of asking.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:43 AM
In many cases, "yes" is the worst thing you could hear. Trust me.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:11 AM
I thought that was pretty typical, anymore, that you didn't ask unless you knew for certain that she'd say yes. It's just not supposed to be a surprise, beyond maybe location and creativity of asking.
You know, I know this is normal now, but it seems awfully weird to me. If you've already agreed that you're going to get married, then the whole 'proposal' routine is just odd -- wasn't the actual proposal the vaguely awkward conversation the two of you had while watching TV about how you're planning to get married sometime, right?
(Although my perspective is a little off on this, because Mr. Breath did the proposal thing at the top of the Empire State Building without prior discussion*. So I'm not exactly certain how normal people do it these days.)
*Maybe not exactly without prior discussion. Mr. Breath claims that I came home from poker night a little lit up a couple of months before he asked me, shook him awake, and said "You know, if we get married we get gifts!", and then fell over and went to sleep. I don't remember this conversation, and suspect him of making it up.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:15 AM
One of my friends proposed to his girlfriend of three and a half months. It came as a complete surprise to her, and I remember her saying "I thought maybe he was going to break up with me!", which I remember thinking was a little weird. She said yes, and they're still together.
Wasn't the actual proposal the vaguely awkward conversation the two of you had while watching TV about how you're planning to get married sometime, right?
Nah, that's just a discussion. The proposal just formalizes that discussion, but I think anymore it would be weird to have the proposal without at least a discussion. As if the girl were just sitting around waiting for someone to decide to ask to marry her.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:31 AM
It came as a complete surprise to her, and I remember her saying "I thought maybe he was going to break up with me!", which I remember thinking was a little weird.
Not so weird. The same thought crossed my mind with Mr. Breath (not for all that long, but it did), and we'd been dating almost two years. The guy you're dating starts getting all weird and tense and won't tell you what's going on, you speculate about stuff.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:34 AM
I suppose. The weirder part was the extremely short amount of time they'd been dating, with all of the lack of communication and desperation that implied.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:42 AM
True. Three months is odd (maybe not odd for a discussion of marriage, if you're both head over heels, but odd for an undiscussed proposal.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 7:53 AM
I also knew of a guy whose girlfriend responded, "Not with that ring."
He went and bought a bigger ring. She said yes.
The marriage lasted six months.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:03 AM
I'm with LB: I think the discussion is weird.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:08 AM
That is just screwed up (that she asked, and that he went along with it). It's a present (with symbolism attached, but a present). There is no context in which you're decently allowed to look at a present and say "Go spend more money on it."
Anyone you wouldn't marry with a ring out of the 25 cent vending machine -- save yourself the lawyers' fees and don't get married.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:08 AM
LB -- that is refreshing to hear. I'd rather forgo the pre-proposal proposal, but then you risk feeling like an ass. Which is ok.
I've got my first deposition in about two hours. It's a pro bono case. Vibes, vibes, vibes.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:21 AM
I think anymore it would be weird to have the proposal without at least a discussion.
Homie!
(Here's "too pale" for you--I just did a Googlefight to see how that's spelled.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:28 AM
Go, text!
Don't sweat it, and don't let the witness's lawyer rattle you. They start giving you a hard time about your questions, give them the cold stare and say "Your objection has been made." It's you and the witness -- the other lawyer isn't even in the room.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:33 AM
I think that the spending real scrylla to buy a ring is a good and classy ritual (except, of course, when it's demanded). But I find the idea of buying a diamond ring appalling. I don't closely follow consumer politics, but the diamond trade is horrifying, and I'd like to one day be a classy guy without having supported it.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:36 AM
Colored stones are prettier, and I believe less socially loathsome (although I'm not absolutely certain.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:39 AM
You really don't have to buy a diamond. Colored stones are perfectly acceptable anymore, given the growing public familiarity with the nastiness of blood diamonds. And there are other options. A couple I know was in New Mexico pre-engagement and came across a little shop where a guy made his own jewelry. For about fifty bucks each, they had the most beautiful rings made, and those are the ones they used. Don't be a sucka.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:51 AM
thanks LB.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:54 AM
Now comes Ogged with the positive 'anymore'. Hmph.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:55 AM
I thought you'd like more data.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:57 AM
If I had it to do over again, I would probably go for a colored stone, or at least search out a certified non-blood diamond.
ALso, I would have sprung for platinum over the white gold, as three years on, the white gold is looking faintly brassy.
It should perhaps be noted that if you're one of those women who would like it to be a surprise, it is perhaps best not to ask your boyfriend "When are we going to get married?" on a monthly basis.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:58 AM
I personally think that the surprise proposal is antiquated, a relic of the bad old days when a young woman had no mission in life but to get herself proposed to (and also she couldn't pursue that mission in anything like a direct way). But I also recognize that this varies from person to person. A woman who would want a surprise proposal would also not be the kind of woman who would ever agree to marry me.
Here is how things went down between my wife of eight years and myself:
Me: Okay, so that's that. That's what we'll do.
Her: Yep.
Me: Oh, yeah, I guess I have to ask you know.
Her: I guess you do.
And so on.
And what did I do for an engagement ring? Nothing! Who wastes money on that kind of crap!
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:06 AM
See, I always thought that colored stones were on the tacky side—they can make for good earrings and necklaces, but not rings. Non-blood diamonds, insofar as they exist, still bolster the diamond institutions that have convinced me that nondiamonds are less precious.
I think I'd prefer to give the girl a Fruit Loop and a hot-air balloon trip to Hong Kong or something.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:13 AM
I'd prefer that too; the challenge is finding the potential mate who would also prefer it.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:19 AM
And who has Fruit Loop hole sized fingers, which has to be quite rare.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:20 AM
She eats the Fruit Loop, she jumps in the balloon—I'm telling you, ladies, there's a happy life in store for one of you.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:22 AM
Great engagement rings in art:
The Simpsons: Onion ring
Some late, subpar Marx Bros. movie, I think The Big Store: donut
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:26 AM
One of my odder colleagues choreographed her own old-fashioned "surprise." She put a downpayment on a ring (a big ol' diamond, natch), and instructed her bf to pick up the payments. Then, when he proposed, (in a restaurant, ring brought in on dessert tray, champagne, etc.) she came in flashing the ring around and told us all how surprised she was. after telling all about the ring business a couple of months before. For a certain kind of woman (or couple), the proposal is now as ritualized as the wedding. only the divorce remains spontaneous...though predictable.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:36 AM
35-37,
my officemate and his brand-new wife got tungsten carbide rings. They look fantastic and the material is insanely durable.
Posted by TJ | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:42 AM
Matt Weiner! I would have a blogcrush on you except for the fact I think that you're mocking me, as I blush furiously over the 'anymore'. Is it really that regional? (I don't use 'yinz' and avoid the 'needs washed' construction.)
['Quoth the Steeler, "Anymore."' ???]
I like diamonds (and there's enough non-conflict ones to go around) for engagement rings. If it's supposed to be an engagement ring, colored stones just don't look engagementish. Forgoing the engagement ring is cool, but if you're going to bother with the whole tradition, it seems weird to substitute rubies.
By 'discussion', by the way, I don't mean a pre-asking so much as an expectation that everyone's on the same page re: long term plans. Maybe it's just a function of where most of my friends and I are in our lives; those who got married already are kind of young and it often coincided with finishing a master's/starting law school/need to talk anyway about where this thing is going.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:54 AM
I met a lawyer who once said "Riddle me this, Batman." before asking a question in a deposition. I think she was just used to saying that phrase before asking questions.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 10:12 AM
The "Not with that ring." is a warning sign.
On the other hand, engagement ring selection should probably be done by the girlfriend because she is the one who is going to wear it. If she hates diamonds then she will tell you. If she couldn't imagine an engagement ring without a diamond, it isn't a good idea to try to weasal out of it if you can afford it.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 10:52 AM
What a dummy. What you do is take her out to dinner, go home for some sex, and then get turned down. OR, after being turned down at dinner, take her home and ask if a bj is out of the question.
Posted by crooked pinky | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 10:54 AM
A woman who insists on a diamond, and of a particular size, well.... The problem is, as was pointed out upthread, an old custom clashing with contemporary relationships. We associate the romance of proposal with furtiveness and surprise, but it doesn't make sense anymore for the surprise to attach to the desire to marry itself. So there aren't good rules about whether ring shopping should be done together, or in secret, etc. Personally, when I hear stories of elaborate and romantic games preceding a proposal, half of me thinks "how romantic!" and half of me thinks, "that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard." I split the difference in real life, sneaking away to meet with Ex's parents to get permission, then saying one day, while she and I were driving along, "So, you wanna get married?" YMMV.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 11:00 AM
Joe O has it. Short of months of deliberately ferrying your girlfriend to social occasions where people are wearing engagement rings, the only reliable way to find out what she's going to want to wear is to take her shopping! So the agreement to go ring shopping is in some ways the effective date of engagement.
Oh, and ogged? Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
Posted by diddy | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 11:55 AM
A friend of mine has her husband's grandmother's ring. It's beautiful, and it doesn't support the contemporary diamond trade.
I would never ask anyoone to buy me a more expensive ring, but if I thought that the ring was too expensive or too big and flashy, I might ask to have it exchanged. If it was really garish, I might just say "no."
My Mom's ring is sapphire surrounded by small white diamonds set in white gold, and it's quite pretty.
I think that you get in trouble with some fo the colored stones, because they're too soft. (I don't remember whether the problem was with rubies or emeralds.)
Does anyone remember that Anne Shirley of Anne of Green Gables didn't care for diamonds once she learned that they were clear. She had always imagined that they would look like amethysts.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 11:57 AM
I dated a "not with that ring" woman for much longer than I should have. She was and is very cool, and well out of my league in every respect, but I still consider it a signal achievement to have not married her, and consider it a mark against my judgment that we dated as long as we did.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 11:57 AM
Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
Bah! You're still joining the family, and as a sign of respect, you let them make known their opinions and give their advice. "Asking permission" is perhaps no longer what happens, but you should still do it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:00 PM
Personally, when I hear stories of elaborate and romantic games preceding a proposal, half of me thinks "how romantic!" and half of me thinks, "that's the stupidest shit I've ever heard."
One of my friends proposed to his girlfriend with the entire glee club singing in the background, at the final concert of his senior year, in front of the whole audience. That was pretty elaborate and nuts for planning.
Even the non-elaborate ones end up a bit cheesy and awkward, though. Of my friends, it tends to involve romantic walks for no good reason to locations 'where they met' or 'are romantic', but none of the guys have been terribly good at thinking up reasons to be there, so it gets very awkward, including the one that proposed outside in a snowdrift after a 20 minute walk in 25 degree weather.
We joke that she said yes just to get inside somewhere warm.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:03 PM
Does anyone remember that Anne Shirley of Anne of Green Gables didn't care for diamonds once she learned that they were clear. She had always imagined that they would look like amethysts.
Yes! And her engagement ring was a circlet of pearls!
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:04 PM
Asking permission is so over. She's not a piece of daddy's estate!
No, I'm with Ogged on this one. If I've learned anything from my two marriages, it's that you don't marry a person, you marry a family (including, unfortunately all their dramas and traumas). It's a show of respect.
When I talked to my first father-in-law to be, he laughed and said, "Well, I don't have any problem with it, of course, but I don't think you're getting a good deal."
I was taken a bit aback and asked, "Excuse me?"
"Financially, I mean. She's expensive. Like her mother. But best of luck and welcome to the family."
Both he and I are now married to different women.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:41 PM
That is so awesome, Apo.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:51 PM
I don't know, I think my father-in-law would have been taken aback if I'd asked him first (and that my wife would have kicked my ass for presuming that I needed his permission — forget showing her father respect, I think it would be disrespectful to her).
This is part of my argument against getting engaged early in a relationship, but if you've known the family for a few years, by the time the engagement happens, both sides will probably feel it's about time.
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 12:58 PM
Mrs. Davenport made we wait a week for an answer. I also 'sort of" asked her parents. I think I said something like "I would like to marry your daughter" which was waffly enough between asking and telling.
In many way I get along better with my inlaws rather than my own family.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:02 PM
If I've learned anything from my two marriages, it's that you don't marry a person, you marry a family.
This is my biggest fear, because it means that I'm screwed. My family is pretty crazy. I'd never marry into a family with my family's characteristics. I'd like to see some stability, but I'd always hoped that someday somebody would love me enough to say "I don't care that your family is nuts. It's you, I love" or something a little less cheesy but along those lines.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:13 PM
just to chime in lately: i think the discussion is important in an age where not necessarily everyone wants to get married. the marriage proposal tends to be a say-yes-or-it's-over kind of thing, and if your choices are propose, get turned down, and stop dating, or know before you propose that she's not really into the whole marriage thing or at least isn't into it right now, i think the former would be preferable.
spending money on engagement rings by people who aren't rich seems awkward to me. it's like, if you're going to spend a boatload of cash on a present for me, how about it be something i actually like, like, say, a trip to china or something cool. of course, some women want huge diamonds, but i think they're weird.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:15 PM
it means that I'm screwed
Not at all! Most people don't figure this out until it's much too late.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:16 PM
50: I do not mock people for Pittsburghisms. Best Place On Earth. (You misspelled "Stiller," though.) Blogcrushes on me are discouraged, though.
The dialect society seemed to think it was regional, but Ogged is trying to prove me wrong. Maybe I have to send out the Batsignal for Corey again.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:37 PM
65
bostoniangirl,
If you don't mind my asking - what do you mean by "crazy." If you really mean "quirky" I don't think that is much of a big deal. I mean everyone's family is quirky at the least.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:49 PM
Cala,
I also knew of a guy whose girlfriend responded, "Not with that ring."
He went and bought a bigger ring. She said yes.
The marriage lasted six months.
I hope she was really, really good in bed.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 1:52 PM
Sadly, I don't think trying to find non-blood diamonds really gets at the issue -- you're still building up the overall diamond market. Very little Saudi oil actually makes its way into American cars, but every time you fill up you're still bolstering their finances because you've got a global market in a largely fungible commodity.
Repurposing family heirlooms strikes me as the ideal mix of classy and unlikely to lead to large-scale human suffering. It also seems to correctly capture the notion that the point of giving a valuable gift on the occassion of engagement is symbolic, rather than pecuniary.
Posted by Matthew Yglesias | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 2:54 PM
Yglesias makes a nice recovery from the Volokh/gays debacle to get this one exactly right. Unless neither family has any heirlooms, in which case their brokedown genes don't really need passing on.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 2:57 PM
Heirlooms schmeirlooms, it seems to me you can always dig up something from "dear old Granny." Who's to care whether it comes from your Granny or someone else's via the pawn shop.
Recycling is good, no? Nana would be so touched!
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:00 PM
What if the genes are so good that the ancestors in question are still using the heirlooms?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:01 PM
The diamond trade probably wasn't much better in your grandparents' day. That said, at least you won't be supporting today's market.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:04 PM
Tripp,
I mean crazy as in "has been psychotic." My mom's very clever, but she's probably bipolar and wouldn't take meds for a long time. She'd find a psychologist who thought they were odd. When she was a teenager, they thought she was schizophrenic, but diagnostic practice has changed a lot in the past several years. I'm not actually on speaking terms with her right now, but I know that when my Dad dies I'm going to have to pick up the pieces, because my Mom's gonna live until she's 90. More than you wanted to know, I'm sure.
And so you see, I would never marry someone with that kind of family history--Dad's mom is bipolar too--because that sort of assortative mating is just bad. Too much genetic loading.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:22 PM
That would make a good "why you should get to know me" section in a personal ad.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:27 PM
Thanks eb. What's the typed version of a kind of wry smile? :) doesn't seem quite right when accompanied by a laugh.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:33 PM
Interestingly enough, my girlfriend is currently wearing her grandmother's engagement ring. In Georgia (where she's studying for a year) they don't have a strong "dating" concept—you're either single or engaged. Far worse than attracting the attraction of the Georgian men is attracting the curiosity of the Georgian older women, who simply cannot believe that a 25-year-old woman would show her unmarried self in public.
The experience of seeing her daughter wearing an engagement ring that did not mean that marriage was in her future was a somewhat dyspeptic experience for Susan's mother, I'm told.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:33 PM
Man, Susan should have written about that before she left. It was pretty funny all around. When she first told me that she needed a ring for Georgia, I said something oafish like, "Do I need to get you a fake ring or something?" upon hearing which (on a retelling) her mother flipped in all the predictable ways.
The best reaction was Tom's. He wasn't in on this Georgia strategy, so when he saw Susan wearing an engagement ring, he actually froze.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 3:43 PM
While I'm with you on not wanting to support the blood-diamond trade, repurposing family heirlooms can lead to other problems. Sure, you're in love now, but what happens if you have a nasty breakup down the road? Are you sure she'd give you back grandma's ring if you get divorced someday?
My mother has explicitly told me many times that I am not allowed to let any of her grandmother's jewelry go to my brothers' future wives. As the only daughter, I am inheriting all of the jewelry and am entrusted to pass on certain pieces to any daughters that my brothers have.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:27 PM
Wow, Georgia is one backward state. I mean, even in Texas they know about dating.
(I know, I know, that's the thousandth time you've heard that.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:37 PM
To clarify, the above post kind of makes my mother sound like a bitch. It's actually the opposite -- the reason she doesn't want the jewelry to go to my brothers' wives is because she was extremely close with her grandmother and the idea of the jewelry ever leaving the family would break her heart.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:46 PM
OT:
I met a Russian physics/engineering grad student who said he was quite shocked to find out that according to US race/ethnicity classifcations he needed to mark the box for "Caucasian" when filling in demographic information of various forms.
And no, he didn't go to Georgia Tech.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:56 PM
"on various forms"
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:56 PM
Welcome back, eb!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:59 PM
While it's one thing to say this as the executor of her will, as a woman, I know that nothing would be more meaningful to me than an heirloom ring.
Over the last 30 minutes, I've realized I'm either going to be a terrible executor or a total hypocrite. Arrgh...
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:59 PM
But what is this "OT" of which you speak?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 4:59 PM
"off topic"
And thanks for the welcome back. I've actually been following along, but am cutting back on the comments for reasons similar to the ones Mitch Mills cited.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:04 PM
"off topic"
MTF
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:05 PM
"off topic"
I understand both those words individually, but I just don't see how they combine to form a meaningful whole round here.
Becks--it would solve the problem if you yourself were to marry your brothers.... how many do you have?
(Um, hope that wasn't out of bounds.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:07 PM
I've actually been following along, but am cutting back on the comments for reasons similar to the ones Mitch Mills cited.
Cool! See you in Brussels then, the first lambic is on me!
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:10 PM
It sounds like he might also be making plans to marry your fiancee.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:11 PM
I knew that you weren't being literal, MW. I think it's hard to be off topic.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:11 PM
Now don't you feel welcomed back, eb?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:13 PM
It sounds like he might also be making plans to marry your fiancee.
Well if that's the case, then no lambic for you eb!
Posted by Mitch Mills | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:16 PM
Once you've been away for a while, you forget what on topic means around here.
And sadly, no, I'm not getting married—I was in that very restaurant when ogged was there.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 5:40 PM
As long as we're off topic: have you seen this, Ogged?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:26 PM
I think I started unraveling the thread with two long comments about how I think my girlfriend is funny.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:31 PM
I hadn't seen that, that's depressing. Hitting the 13th bus when you're trying jump 22 doesn't exactly redound to the greater glory of the motherland. Still, sad.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:37 PM
As long as we're off topic and linking to my blog (thanks, Apostropher!), why not have a go at my first-ever caption contest?
More submissions = more funny.
Thanks.
Posted by GaijinBiker | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 6:58 PM
My youngest sister's husband refused to buy her an engagement ring of any sort, and not even something extremely old-fashioned like a watch or a locket. She said he said it would be just like he was a dog, peeing on her to mark his territory.
While the words coming out of her mouth while she related this to us said she understood and agreed with his sentiment, the odd look on her face belied them. Something in her expression said that she thought he was being a little weird and/or cheap.
My other sister (on that side of my family) OTOH, threw a hissy b/c Mom would not drive six hours to Chicago on Mother's Day (after having just driven 8 hours home from working on rental property two days earlier) just to watch her fiance' present her with an engagement ring. A ring that she had picked out and sent everybody JPEGs of before Xmas, and already been wearing from time to time (we have photographic proof). For a second marriage for both parties involved. I tried to point out to her that Mom had been doing the "a daughter is engaged" thing for a quarter-century now, and it just really wasn't that big a deal to her any more.
Posted by Camera Obscura | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:36 PM
he said it would be just like he was a dog, peeing on her to mark his territory
Some people need to be kept far away from words and ideas.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 8:46 PM
My cousin's boyfriend proposed with a giant ring he made out of snow, complete with a rock the size of her head. When people would later ask her where her engagement ring was, she would say it melted (which it had). Seems like a good solution to me.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08-29-05 9:15 PM
okay, I am jumping in just because I have had so many friends ask me if they are evil for wanting a ring of a certain sparkliness. I offered to give my groom(first wedding, second groom, had a scene a bit like described but in a nice resturant and i was asking and it was leap day and well, that relationship ran for another two years before it well and truly wrecked) the cash to pay for my platinum setting (he was just finishing his ph.d. about to start first job). He said no to the money, got a loan, I got my ring.
Another friend, bf bought box from tiffany's and gave her her grandmother's ring. Um, when they started getting eviction notices because he hadn't paid the rent, she moved back home. I think the ring can be an important indicator that a man can get his finances together and pay for something. This can be an important attribute in a happy marriage.
Posted by kate | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 5:49 AM
He said no to the money, got a loan, I got my ring.
Of course, that doesn't prove that he can 'get his finances together and pay for something', really. And I think being given an heirloom ring by and large doesn't mean the man is cheap, but more likely wants to honor a family tradition. There's a lot better indicators of financial responsibility.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 6:19 AM
kate,
Sadly, in these days of EZ Kredit, I think the purchase of a ring proves not much about a man's finances.
bostoniangirl,
Thanks for the answer. Yeah, that is a bit farther out on the spectrum than "putting potato chips on tuna salad" but I don't think it would be a deal breaker.
In my experience everyone's parents get a little more wacky with age and eventually everyone needs the skills to deal with that. It is good you've got those skills early. Also, like I said earlier, everyone's family tree has something going on somewhere or another. The heart loves what it loves. The rest is just details.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 7:03 AM
Not to belabor the point, but I'm honestly confused.
Blood diamonds = bad.
Buying a non-blood diamond from DeBeers = also bad (the point of MY's Saudi oil example)
But it is possible to get a diamond from, e.g., the Albertan diamond mines in Canada that is finished and polished either in Canada or in Israel (Israeli companies holding something like 20% of the diamond market, and non-DeBeers.), and be relatively certain about the quality of the labor practices.
How is this problematic? Does it increase the demand for blood diamonds somehow? By continuing the marketing tradition/social cachet of 'must-have-diamond-engagement-ring'? Doesn't passing on a an heirloom ring accomplish the same thing, in terms of reinforcing the social norm?
I realize ogged's joking about the not reproducing thing, but 'oh, just use an heirloom and be classy that way' isn't an option for a lot of people.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 7:47 AM
Or the heirloom may be otherwise inappropriate. I was offered my deceased mother's engagement ring, but my parents' marriage didn't exactly work out, and I wasn't sure I wanted to send the message, "Will you spend, oh, say, the next 10 years with me? That's all I got."
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 7:59 AM
Cala,
DeBeers has enough of the worldwide diamond supply that they can effectively set the prices to whatever they want by restricting supply. They've got hug amounts of diamonds in storage. They've cornered the market.
In addition, through shrewd advertising, they have convinced people that they must have diamond engagement rings, and, more recently, that the size of the diamond equals the size of the love.
Diamonds are terrible investments. The second-hand market is very low. Again, this situation is created by DeBeers advertising - a cheap secondhand diamond engagement ring is tainted by being cheap and having belonged to someone else.
And cubic zirconium - despite being almost exactly identical to diamond is also tainted by being incredible cheap.
I don't think the question is "bad" vs "good," but instead "tool" vs "rebel."
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 8:05 AM
Matt,
I've heard of resetting the stone for cases like yours, but what do I know? Like everyone else I bowed to social pressure, although back then 1/3 carat was big.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 8:22 AM
#105: WTF is going on in the world with the kids these days? Wouldn't you know the person pretty well before you got married, inc. whether he was responsible, had a job, could pull his financial weight, etc.? Somehow, this strikes me as similar to the "pretty princess" problem. Y'all know you're allowed to sleep with him without getting married, right?
#109: The number of Matts is getting unnerving. I saw 109, assumed it was Weiner, remembered him saying, "Hi Mom," at some previous point, assumed his mother had recently passed away, and was horrified by the easy reference to her death. Confusion dispelled, Weiner remains a monster.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 8:24 AM
I am now accepting suggestions for peudonyms, since I seem to be the last Matt to the party...
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:05 AM
And re #111, I guess I was under the impression that it was the stone that was the "essence" of the engagement ring, and so simply having the stone re-set wouldn't solve the "problem."
Posted by Matt | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:07 AM
Tripp, gotcha.
But it still seems like social conscience on the cheap: "no, no, you can't have a diamond mined from good sources because DeBeers has shitty business practices that taint your diamond through market forces, but I am free to use my heirloom diamond mined from 100% genuine apartheid labor because the bills were paid a long time ago."
I'll admit that it's silly social pressure, and certainly not something that's a deal-breaker in any case, but it seems just as silly to follow the 'tradition' of a diamond engagement ring but demand that no one else should.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:26 AM
Matt, I never got the tainted thing. If you reset it and add pretty side stones (maybe sapphires or something shiny, who cares, they sparkle) it's a way to honor your mom and have something new at the same time.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:28 AM
Cala--I think Yglesias's argument is something like this--the price of Albertan diamonds and the price of conflict/DeBeers diamonds is roughly the same and determined by supply and demand in the usual way, whatever that is. If you buy Albertan diamonds, you're driving up the price for diamonds in general. (By some small amount, but if it weren't for collective action problems this conversation wouldn't be necessary.) So your action redounds to the profit of DeBeers and the conflict diamond people, even though you're not directly giving them any money.
I don't know about the underlying facts and whether this is what Yglesias is really saying but that's how I interpret it. It's not a question of norm reinforcement, rather a question of being one of the many people who buy diamonds.
I guess this effect wouldn't occur if the Albertan diamond market were separated from the rest--then increased demand for Albertan diamonds would drive up their price but not the price of other diamonds. If everyone in the U.S. and Europe refused to buy non-Albertan diamonds that would probably have a real effect. But the only way I can imagine that happening is if there were effective bans.
(A friend of mine once proposed doing a bunch of DeBeers-type ads, except that the silhouettes around the diamonds would be child soldiers and people with their arms blown off in the conflicts. We never did come up with the tag line.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:31 AM
'Prosethetics are forever' wouldn't cut it, I suppose.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:40 AM
Cala,
Having a conscience can be a problem at times but I applaud yours.
So, Matt #3, how about saying something about yourself and I'll see what I can come up with.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:49 AM
To the people who suggest buying a colored stone instead – are they really mined that much more ethically than diamonds? Seriously, I don't know.
Unfortunately, I think that the number of people who care about the origin of conflict diamonds are in the minority. There is a jewelry store in the DC area (Charles Alexander?) that actually advertises its long ties with South African diamond mines and about how its connections to the mines ensure high quality and low prices. The radio ads are totally creepy – the voiceover actor even has a British accent, which I'm sure they think sounds refined and sophisticated but sounds like a celebration of imperialism to me.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:50 AM
Becks,
The prettiest stone I've ever seen was a laboratory grown emerald. As far as I know the manufacturing is not "tainted." I like emeralds and the color and clarity of the lab grown one was spectacular.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 9:56 AM
You know, "Ben Wolfson" would be a good pseudonym....
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:05 AM
Of sparkly pretty things, diamonds are probably not my favorite. Opals are pretty, rubies are pretty, sapphire is pretty, pearls are pretty, amethysts are pretty. Diamonds it really depends on the setting.
But they look like engagment rings, which I realize is a silly reason to prefer them for engagement rings, but where's the fun in showing off if you have to tell people it's an engagement ring?
Stupid DeBeers marketing. We need an opal campaign.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:09 AM
I have a friend who, at our crunchy, earnest liberal arts college, was always trying to pull off her big hair/make up/Florida debutante persona with a heavy dose of charming irony and self consciousness, which worked, mostly, and I forgave her for driving her car to the gym when it was a 20 minute walk, etc. But recently she announced that she wanted a diamond from her probable fiance to be, and yes she knew exactly why that was wrong, but she was an old fashioned girl, she joked self-deprecatingly. I thought it was a little gross.
I'm reminded of this song: http://www.lyricsdomain.com/18/rasputina/diamond_mind.html
p.s. does linking work differently on unfogged than it does elsewhere? why can't I make a link?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:25 AM
Link should be <a href="http://www.thedomain.com/">the link text</a>
with all the quotation marks and such in place
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:30 AM
I swear I did that. Does it just not show up in preview?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:42 AM
It shows up in preview. Try it again!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:43 AM
Of all things, a Sarah Silverman routine was what did it for me with diamonds. I had always felt conflict diamonds were bad, of course, but when I went to see her in Jesus is Magic, she had this bit [you may not want to read further] about how diamonds grow at the base of African babies' spines like pearls in a clamshell and are mined by harvesting toddlers. The whole routine was disgusting and extreme (as you can guess if you've ever seen Sarah Silverman) but it actually did make a disturbingly valid point about how society lets things happen indirectly that it would never tolerate if it had to come face-to-face with the consequences.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 10:47 AM
What's this about some guy being the third Matt? There's that McGratten guy who some of you seemed familiar with, and then, just because it doesn't appear in my pseudonym...
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 12:10 PM
There's a clear stone from Maine that is quite nice. It's not cubic zirconium, but I can't remember what it's called. It may be more appropriate for earrings than for rings though.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 12:44 PM
But they look like engagment rings, which I realize is a silly reason to prefer them for engagement rings, but where's the fun in showing off if you have to tell people it's an engagement ring?
Under the assumption that colored stones are less evilly produced (which a quick google seems to support, although I don't know why it should be true), a solitary stone on a simple ring on the left ring finger is going to look like an engagement ring regardless of the color. No one's ever been confused by mine. (Although I did have some ninny in law school ask me if my fiance was European, because she understood that colored stones were all right for engagement rings over there.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 12:46 PM
That's true. Most of my friends who have opted for non-diamond solitaires have done a row of smaller stones (although one had sapphires mixed with diamonds, which kind of defeats the purpose, unless they're only blood diamonds if solitaire-sized).
I googled a bit and it seems that there's not been wars over sapphires, but still, the mining and environmental conditions are pretty crappy.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-30-05 12:52 PM