As regards human progress, (in spite of my irrepressible yearnings over the Blithedale reminiscences,) let them believe in it who can, and aid in it who choose! If I could earnestly do either, it might be all the better for my comfort. As Hollingsworth once told me, I lack a purpose. How strange! He was ruined, morally, by an overplus of the very same ingredient, the want of which, I occasionally suspect, has rendered my own life all an emptiness. I by no means wish to die. Yet, were there any cause, in this whole chaos of human struggle, worth a sane man's dying for, and which my death would benefit, then--provided, however, the effort did not involve an unreasonable amount of trouble--methinks I might be bold to offer up my life. If Kossuth, for example, would pitch the battle-field of Hungarian rights within an easy ride of my abode, and choose a mild, sunny morning, after breakfast, for the conflict, Miles Coverdale would gladly be his man, for one brave rush upon the levelled bayonets. Farther than that, I should be loth to pledge myself.
When I first moved to san francisco, I was suprised how much more emphasis was given on being interesting. This is fine if you are a naturally interesting person, but it can be a pain in the ass otherwise.
The thought that bothers me about (but doesn't stop me from) castigating the fresh-faced, humorless idealists of the world is that I'm pretty sure that when I have kids I'll direct my parenting efforts at making them turn out that way. Nobody wants to bestow bottomless, poisonous cynicism on their offspring, despite the fact that we all think it's pretty fun.
Maybe I'm wrong about this, though. The thought of a hypothetical child of mine deciding to trick-or-treat for UNICEF pennies is still pretty horrifying.
Yeah Miles, I think these folks are fine, good people, and I admire them. Really. Doing the Lord's work, some of them. But that doesn't mean Tom's not right that they make crappy TV hosts.
The other day I went to a restaurant whose menu feature "Freedom Fries" and "Freedom Toast," with American flags next to the entries in case you hadn't got the message. I wouldn't at all mind living with the Burning Man people right about now.
featured, and that's not to mention the ratio of religious to secular bookstores in town. But the Yellow Pages does have a separate section for "Barbecue."
the Yellow Pages does have a separate section for "Barbecue."
As well they should. Though if my sources are accurate, Texans seem to believe that barbecue's main ingredient is beef rather than pork. And that, my friends, is rank apostasy.
You can get both kinds here, I believe. What's your opinion on BBQ sausage? And don't you make BBQ sausage with some silly vinegar sauce? And doesn't your mother dress you funny?
Crap. That should've been, "don't you [North Caroliners] make BBQ [not sausage] with some silly vinegar sauce?" And I hear the way your mother dresses you is more on the tragic side.
Sam K--I don't know, exactly, but B-Wo is right. And I'm really not sure that BBQ brisket is prevalent in all Texas or just West Texas. But it is important to have actual barbecue sauce, which is red.
(Actually, I'm not sure I've ever had Carolina barbecue, but it just sounds silly.)
23: It's smoked, that's how. And the traditional cut of Texas BBQ beef is brisket, which isn't widely used outside the state. Texas BBQ sauce, of course, is distinct from NC, Kansas City, and Memphis BBQ sauces.
It is so funny how unfogged comment lists regularly get hijacked with bbq talk. What an unlikely place.
I just sat through a saturday night with someone from Houston mocking carolina barbeque. I gotta admit - as an outsider not weaned on it - carolina pork doesn't look like much the first time you get a pile of grey mush dished on a white bun with slaw. But I came to the defense, cuz damn it's good.
I also meant to ask Kriston what he meant by saying brisket isn't widely used outside of Texas--not for barbecue, or not at all? If the latter, you need to hang out with Jews more.
Not for BBQ. That's funny, I even started to write a disclaimer about that other ethnic group that eats brisket. Brisket's the greatest common denominator between Yglesias and my upringing.
27. I guess I would say smoked brisket seems like huge waste of time if you're only going to douse the meat in a tomato-based sauce, since you could as easily dump a london broil and a bottle of Bullseye into the crockpot before you leave for work.
Sam, are you assuming a pulled-beef style presentation? That's the only way I can reconcile what you're saying with the deliciousness of the brisket I had on Saturday.
(I'm trying to get Kriston to try cooking a pork shoulder, but this is a delicate operation; don't spook him!)
Let me note that ethnic warfare has erupted over less before I politely respond. London broil is flank steak with a potent marinade; brisket's a naturally fatty, awesome cut. It gets a distinct Texas flavor from the dry rub and the wood one uses to smoke it (mesquite or hickory, thanks). I usually save the sauce for leftovers (chopped brisket sandwiches), but you simply can't deny a homemade sauce that complements the dry rub.
The Bullseye suggestion, of course, doesn't merit a response.
It's actually possible that I am eating all the wrong "Texas" barbecue, because I would actually prefer Bullseye-in-the-crockpot to a brisket at any of the local "Texas"-style chain restaurants.
Perhaps that's only serves to highlight another positive feature of North Carolina barbecue: less open to parody.
Kriston, can't this be a happy bbq thread? Do you have to be a fundamentalist? Carolina bbq is good, as is Texas bbq, despite the fact that it's made by Texans.
That's a good point, and I considered that, but then that's the only place to get "Texas" barbecue in North Carolina. Some have openly admitted to having never tried North Carolina barbecue at all.
That's a good point, and I considered that, but then that's the only place to get "Texas" barbecue in North Carolina. Some have openly admitted to having never tried North Carolina barbecue at all.
Well, the reason you can't get good Texas barbecue in North Carolina would seem to be self-evident; the same applies vice versa. I eat pulled-pork in NC at least once a year when I go to the Outer Banks. And it's always good, no doubt! but it's not what I think of when I imagine BBQ.
Barbecued goat is yummy. There are two very distinct NC barbecue sauces. Eastern NC has the thin, vinegary sauces, which are okay but nothing special; western NC has the thick hella spicy sauces, which I would drink from a shot glass if nobody was watching.
Sauce aside, barbecue is supposed to be made from pigs. Texas-style "barbecue" does taste good, but it can only be referred to as barbecue while making fingers-in-the-air quote marks. Otherwise, it's like serving chicken fingers and calling them fish sticks.
Apropos of this (sort of), I finally get a chance to try fresh tuna, and I chop up all my own herbs, spritz it with lime juice, slather it with butter before putting it on the grill.
And it tastes like the stuff that comes out of a can.
This is only the latest disappointment I've had involving fish, which either tastes like nothing or tastes like fish. I really don'y think there's any in between here. Is there or is there not a great fish-promoting conspiracy, as Plutarch suggested (had to throw that in for cred, this being unfogged and you all being so learned)?
I say yea, and vow not ever to eat a sea-dwelling organism again, unless it's got a shell. Them I like, child of the Chesapeake that I am.
Do you want the short answer on your tuna conundrum? You overcooked the shit out of it. If you're going to the trouble of eating fresh tuna, it should be basically raw in the middle, only seared on the outside (some would say applying heat at all is a crime--I am not such an absolutist).
Chopper, I'll save Wolfson the trouble of pointing out that it was never a conundrum, while thanking you for the advice. I'll try searing it next time, but one problem I have is that my gas cylinder is sucking fumes, so I couldn't very well sear anything until I can find the time to refill the tank (which ain't easy in this country, where everything's closed when you're not working).
By the way, Chopper, my Irish heritage means that I find anything that's basically raw in the middle revolting. Should I stick to land-dwelling creatures, do you think?
Aye, what Chopper said. A good tuna steak should be cooked like a good cut of beef. Peppered, and seared; think like cooking a rare steak, and your tuna will be delectable.
What I know of Irish cuisine involves boiling the hell out of innocent vegetables.
I'm sure I can make it a conundrum if I work at it long enough.
Anyhoo, based on 59 and your orginal comment, my guess is that you should just hang it in and return to land animals. Just save some bacon for the rest of us.
I read somewhere (I think it was this guy talking about the five distinct barbecue traditions) that there's an area of western Kentucky where barbecue is mutton.
I like the vinegar based 'cue. It features the meat, and it can be really peppery.
Snees: Have you tried swordfish? Ricky Gervais says it's so good, it should be promoted to a meat. (I agree, but I like fish so you may not care what I think.)
Everyone is right about the tuna -- pretend it's a steak, and so it should be at least pink in the middle, preferably red. If you don't want to eat rare fish, stick with the cans, and leave the good stuff for the rest of us. And there's some awfully good Irish food -- colcannon, anyone? (Mashed potates mixed with finely chopped kale. It's delicious.)
64: Calvin Trillin (I think in Alice Let's Eat) has an an essay about going to the barbecued-mutton regions of Kentucky, with side trips to the fried-chicken and country-ham regions. It turns out (spoiler, such as it is) that his favorite barbecue joint in Kansas City also serves mutton.
THanks Matt, I must check that out. I've never read his collections. I used to think he was just that crazy guy who wrote doggerel on politics for the nation every week.
Interesting juxtuposition with the last post.
"So, let's see what's happening in the world..." "Current TV"
How ogged destresses . . .
Posted by NickS | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:24 AM
Since the RAAS people probably also only care in the abstract, can't you just factor that part out?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:26 AM
well...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:34 AM
Where do they come up with those names?
Posted by ptm | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:35 AM
It's reassuring to tell yourself you're more fun at a party.
And yet...
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:40 AM
I deliberately didn't say I was better at a party.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:43 AM
And I really need to turn off site search.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:45 AM
Posted by Miles Coverdale | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:20 AM
When I first moved to san francisco, I was suprised how much more emphasis was given on being interesting. This is fine if you are a naturally interesting person, but it can be a pain in the ass otherwise.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:32 AM
In some ways, San Francisco sounds like a great place. But then I see things like this, and I'm instantly exhausted.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:40 AM
You know that Burning Man doesn't actually take place in San Francisco, right?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:42 AM
You know those are pictures of the San Franciscans who attend Burning Man? And that Burning Man started in SF?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:44 AM
Oh, annoying. I recognize one of those guys from the art dept at UT. That's the scene that I forget about in my nostalgia for Austin.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 11:45 AM
Miles: ouch.
The thought that bothers me about (but doesn't stop me from) castigating the fresh-faced, humorless idealists of the world is that I'm pretty sure that when I have kids I'll direct my parenting efforts at making them turn out that way. Nobody wants to bestow bottomless, poisonous cynicism on their offspring, despite the fact that we all think it's pretty fun.
Maybe I'm wrong about this, though. The thought of a hypothetical child of mine deciding to trick-or-treat for UNICEF pennies is still pretty horrifying.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 12:18 PM
Yeah Miles, I think these folks are fine, good people, and I admire them. Really. Doing the Lord's work, some of them. But that doesn't mean Tom's not right that they make crappy TV hosts.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 12:21 PM
The other day I went to a restaurant whose menu feature "Freedom Fries" and "Freedom Toast," with American flags next to the entries in case you hadn't got the message. I wouldn't at all mind living with the Burning Man people right about now.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 12:53 PM
featured, and that's not to mention the ratio of religious to secular bookstores in town. But the Yellow Pages does have a separate section for "Barbecue."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 12:55 PM
I recently asked Texan friend about Lubbock. After enquiring why, he wished you great constancy of spirit, Matt.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:09 PM
the Yellow Pages does have a separate section for "Barbecue."
As well they should. Though if my sources are accurate, Texans seem to believe that barbecue's main ingredient is beef rather than pork. And that, my friends, is rank apostasy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:13 PM
You can get both kinds here, I believe. What's your opinion on BBQ sausage? And don't you make BBQ sausage with some silly vinegar sauce? And doesn't your mother dress you funny?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:21 PM
Crap. That should've been, "don't you [North Caroliners] make BBQ [not sausage] with some silly vinegar sauce?" And I hear the way your mother dresses you is more on the tragic side.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:22 PM
The first time his mother dressed him, it was tragedy. The second time was farce.
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:25 PM
Matt,
In what way does Texas barbecue distinguish itself from beef with barbecue sauce poured over it?
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:28 PM
Beef with barbecue sauce poured over it doesn't sound bad, if the beef is slow-cooked and all and the bbq sauce is good.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:33 PM
Sam K--I don't know, exactly, but B-Wo is right. And I'm really not sure that BBQ brisket is prevalent in all Texas or just West Texas. But it is important to have actual barbecue sauce, which is red.
(Actually, I'm not sure I've ever had Carolina barbecue, but it just sounds silly.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:41 PM
Cripes, Ben. Given that we know that you weigh less than ogged, do you think that anyone believes you eat meat?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:42 PM
23: It's smoked, that's how. And the traditional cut of Texas BBQ beef is brisket, which isn't widely used outside the state. Texas BBQ sauce, of course, is distinct from NC, Kansas City, and Memphis BBQ sauces.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:48 PM
North Carolina BBQ is like kissing your sister.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:50 PM
Your sister has a vinegary taste?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:51 PM
It is so funny how unfogged comment lists regularly get hijacked with bbq talk. What an unlikely place.
I just sat through a saturday night with someone from Houston mocking carolina barbeque. I gotta admit - as an outsider not weaned on it - carolina pork doesn't look like much the first time you get a pile of grey mush dished on a white bun with slaw. But I came to the defense, cuz damn it's good.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:54 PM
Aside from brisket, beef ribs are often used, at least in my grandmother's kitchen for Christmas dinner.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 1:57 PM
Nobody wants to bestow bottomless, poisonous cynicism on their offspring
Speak for yourself -- I'm deliberately raising mine as sarcastic little brutes. Cheerfulness doesn't sit well with their familial heritage.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:00 PM
I also meant to ask Kriston what he meant by saying brisket isn't widely used outside of Texas--not for barbecue, or not at all? If the latter, you need to hang out with Jews more.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:04 PM
Not for BBQ. That's funny, I even started to write a disclaimer about that other ethnic group that eats brisket. Brisket's the greatest common denominator between Yglesias and my upringing.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:13 PM
The original unfogged bbq thread, for those interested.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:13 PM
27. I guess I would say smoked brisket seems like huge waste of time if you're only going to douse the meat in a tomato-based sauce, since you could as easily dump a london broil and a bottle of Bullseye into the crockpot before you leave for work.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:29 PM
MN barbecue sauce is not Mild - it is Extra Mild. Same with Picanti sauce.
Even flour burritos have too much taste so we make them out of potatoes and call it lefsa.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:52 PM
Sam, are you assuming a pulled-beef style presentation? That's the only way I can reconcile what you're saying with the deliciousness of the brisket I had on Saturday.
(I'm trying to get Kriston to try cooking a pork shoulder, but this is a delicate operation; don't spook him!)
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:55 PM
Let me note that ethnic warfare has erupted over less before I politely respond. London broil is flank steak with a potent marinade; brisket's a naturally fatty, awesome cut. It gets a distinct Texas flavor from the dry rub and the wood one uses to smoke it (mesquite or hickory, thanks). I usually save the sauce for leftovers (chopped brisket sandwiches), but you simply can't deny a homemade sauce that complements the dry rub.
The Bullseye suggestion, of course, doesn't merit a response.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 2:58 PM
It's actually possible that I am eating all the wrong "Texas" barbecue, because I would actually prefer Bullseye-in-the-crockpot to a brisket at any of the local "Texas"-style chain restaurants.
Perhaps that's only serves to highlight another positive feature of North Carolina barbecue: less open to parody.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:21 PM
Sam K, when you say "local", what are we talking about here? Canada?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:26 PM
I went to a restaurant in central california once that had a menu divided into "Bones" and "No Bones."
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:28 PM
I've never had NC-style barbecue or NC-style barbecue sauce, but when I imagine great barbecue sauce, I imagine it's NC-style.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:33 PM
That may be true. I for one don't see the use in parodying barbecue made with vinegar.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:37 PM
Kriston, can't this be a happy bbq thread? Do you have to be a fundamentalist? Carolina bbq is good, as is Texas bbq, despite the fact that it's made by Texans.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:39 PM
41. Because I'm talking about national chains, I guess I mean most of the continental US. But I live in North Carolina.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:40 PM
That seems kind of unfair, Sam--national chains suck at most food.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:44 PM
That's a good point, and I considered that, but then that's the only place to get "Texas" barbecue in North Carolina. Some have openly admitted to having never tried North Carolina barbecue at all.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 3:54 PM
I was trying to get apostropher's goat, but he left town.
Barbecued goat sounds like it could be good....
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:02 PM
No peace, Ogged!
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:02 PM
That's a good point, and I considered that, but then that's the only place to get "Texas" barbecue in North Carolina. Some have openly admitted to having never tried North Carolina barbecue at all.
Well, the reason you can't get good Texas barbecue in North Carolina would seem to be self-evident; the same applies vice versa. I eat pulled-pork in NC at least once a year when I go to the Outer Banks. And it's always good, no doubt! but it's not what I think of when I imagine BBQ.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:08 PM
Barbecued goat is yummy. There are two very distinct NC barbecue sauces. Eastern NC has the thin, vinegary sauces, which are okay but nothing special; western NC has the thick hella spicy sauces, which I would drink from a shot glass if nobody was watching.
Sauce aside, barbecue is supposed to be made from pigs. Texas-style "barbecue" does taste good, but it can only be referred to as barbecue while making fingers-in-the-air quote marks. Otherwise, it's like serving chicken fingers and calling them fish sticks.
I'll thrash any man who says differently.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:11 PM
Contra 45, I do like it when Southerners fight.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:20 PM
That vinegary crap blows.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:34 PM
Apropos of this (sort of), I finally get a chance to try fresh tuna, and I chop up all my own herbs, spritz it with lime juice, slather it with butter before putting it on the grill.
And it tastes like the stuff that comes out of a can.
This is only the latest disappointment I've had involving fish, which either tastes like nothing or tastes like fish. I really don'y think there's any in between here. Is there or is there not a great fish-promoting conspiracy, as Plutarch suggested (had to throw that in for cred, this being unfogged and you all being so learned)?
I say yea, and vow not ever to eat a sea-dwelling organism again, unless it's got a shell. Them I like, child of the Chesapeake that I am.
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:37 PM
I do declare I get the vapors when apostropher is threatening to thrash people. Now where is my fan?
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 4:38 PM
Snees--
Do you want the short answer on your tuna conundrum? You overcooked the shit out of it. If you're going to the trouble of eating fresh tuna, it should be basically raw in the middle, only seared on the outside (some would say applying heat at all is a crime--I am not such an absolutist).
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 5:02 PM
Chopper, I'll save Wolfson the trouble of pointing out that it was never a conundrum, while thanking you for the advice. I'll try searing it next time, but one problem I have is that my gas cylinder is sucking fumes, so I couldn't very well sear anything until I can find the time to refill the tank (which ain't easy in this country, where everything's closed when you're not working).
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 5:09 PM
By the way, Chopper, my Irish heritage means that I find anything that's basically raw in the middle revolting. Should I stick to land-dwelling creatures, do you think?
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 5:10 PM
Brisket & ethnic groups.
OK, there's Jewish brisket. With horseradish it's spicy.
Then there's Irish brisket. Not so big on the horseradish, but spicy mustard is OK.
Wait .. New England Boiled Dinner. How's that for ethnic food? Yankees eat brisket too!
I still think the gray corned beef brisket is the unnatural one though I know better now.
Posted by MD 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 6:57 PM
Aye, what Chopper said. A good tuna steak should be cooked like a good cut of beef. Peppered, and seared; think like cooking a rare steak, and your tuna will be delectable.
What I know of Irish cuisine involves boiling the hell out of innocent vegetables.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 7:44 PM
North Carolina BBQ is like kissing your sister.
There's just my brother and me, so I'm not certain how to interpret this. Can my imaginary sister be hott? Or do you have one I can borrow?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 8:40 PM
I'm sure I can make it a conundrum if I work at it long enough.
Anyhoo, based on 59 and your orginal comment, my guess is that you should just hang it in and return to land animals. Just save some bacon for the rest of us.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 8:51 PM
Barbecued goat is yummy.
I read somewhere (I think it was this guy talking about the five distinct barbecue traditions) that there's an area of western Kentucky where barbecue is mutton.
I like the vinegar based 'cue. It features the meat, and it can be really peppery.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 08-22-05 10:18 PM
Snees: Have you tried swordfish? Ricky Gervais says it's so good, it should be promoted to a meat. (I agree, but I like fish so you may not care what I think.)
Posted by andrew | Link to this comment | 08-23-05 6:39 AM
Snees-
Everyone is right about the tuna -- pretend it's a steak, and so it should be at least pink in the middle, preferably red. If you don't want to eat rare fish, stick with the cans, and leave the good stuff for the rest of us. And there's some awfully good Irish food -- colcannon, anyone? (Mashed potates mixed with finely chopped kale. It's delicious.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-23-05 7:49 AM
64: Calvin Trillin (I think in Alice Let's Eat) has an an essay about going to the barbecued-mutton regions of Kentucky, with side trips to the fried-chicken and country-ham regions. It turns out (spoiler, such as it is) that his favorite barbecue joint in Kansas City also serves mutton.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 08-23-05 11:37 AM
THanks Matt, I must check that out. I've never read his collections. I used to think he was just that crazy guy who wrote doggerel on politics for the nation every week.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 08-24-05 6:38 AM