Kinda-sorta-related, if you look at it the right way: At the River Center here, which is a shelter, one constant, visible presence of aid workers is a group of scientologists from California. Many are young and attractive, with a bit of a rebellious look. I have not yet asked them about thetans.
This is one of the more frustrating things about the pro-life movement; there are so many stories of pro-life women who got pregnant, had the abortion, and it didn't seem at all strange for them to want to ban something they took advantage of.
I guess the thing that annoyed me about this is that pregnancy is really not so hard to prevent. To paraphrase Wilde, one unexpected pregnancy is tragic; three looks like carelessness. I mean, if you really thought this is murder...
It's different, just knowing. My husband told me not to look [at the ultrasound]. This changes my feelings, but I'm sticking by it. Damn it, $650, I'm sticking by it.
I didn't really get that line-did she already pay and doesn't want to lose her deposit? Was she dazzled by the low, low prices? What is this, Crazy Vaclav's Abortion Emporium?
There are many divorced Christians who don't believe in divorce and deep down think it should probably be outlawed, as well. Forgiveness is a dangerous thing.
When poor/black/liberal people do it, it's murder. When pro-life people do it, it's a tragic choice of necessity. Even moreso when it's your third one.
Oh... I get it now. It doesn't sound like this girl is particularly pro-life, though. She's not against it, her religion is against it (as she put it). And a pro-lifer doesn't pussy-foot around with phrases like "in a way I feel I'm doing wrong"... they're convinced beyond a doubt we're dealing with murder most foul.
She just sounds like a young confused girl who doesn't really know what she thinks about right and wrong, but sure knows that abortions can be convenient.
I think this gets at something profound and not just a snark-attack target. If you look at truly "red-state" communities in the US, rural and peri-urban communities with high levels of reported attachment to cultural and religious conservatism, they're often communities that also have high reported rates of some of the social problems that figure high on the hit lists of cultural conservatives: high adultery rates, high divorce rates, high premarital sex rates, high abortion rates, and so on.
One of the things that's driving some religious conservatism at the everyday level is precisely a sense that there is a need for the state, or civil institutions, to regulate the same people who are calling for the regulation. "Keep me from doing that which I would otherwise do".
11: Surely that's part of it, but surely part of it is a failure to think things through. When Susie, your best friend, confesses to you she's pregnant, and she has an abortion, it's just a tragic but unavoidable fate. Susie isn't about having sex with no consequences, Susie's about responsibility, it's just that she can't go to college if she has a baby now, isn't it a shame, poor Susie. Lucky for Susie it was legal and safe, because sometimes kids make mistakes.
Which seems a reasonable position, but it never gets generalized beyond Susie/daughter/best friend; all those other women? Well, they're just liberals! or black! or black liberals! Killing babies just like Susie did, but Susie was a special case; none of those women could be in a similar situation. Just Susie. She's a good girl.
I understand forgiveness, and why it would be understandable to outlaw something you once did, but I can't understand why cases like Susie never gives the pro-lifers pause.
I think the "They're/we're good people" thought is a huge driving force in American politics. For instance, I think the hum-de-dum reaction to widespread torture by U.S. forces is explained partly by, "It can't be so bad, we're good people."
15, and the other half of that is we think they're bad people. "Oh, they were detained and impounded by the army. Of course they're bad. The Army never makes mistakes." It's Us vs. Them all the way, and that's a more fundamental attitude.
I also think this may explain the hum-de-dum attitude toward, say, what happened to the budget on W's watch. And, to be fair, some small fraction of the smoke currently coming out my ears.
From the point of view of Catholic theology, if I'm not mistaken, the woman who has sex, doesn't use birth control, gets pregnant three times, has an abortion, and sincerely repents of each one, goes to confession, etc. etc.--her soul is in a better state than mine, as I had sex before I got married (although I am now married & I never did anything, and I mean ANYTHING, except with my future husband) & now I use birth control, and I am completely unrepentant about either of these things.
This seems screwy to me, and not just because I don't think what I did were sins. It seems like even from the Catholic Church's perspective abortion is a far worse sin--it sets up bad incentives even from their perspective.
Except, I directly challenge their authority and she doesn't.
But surely taking the prospect of being forgiven in the future into account when considering present actions both games the system and makes sincere repentance rather unlikely, no?
I've known several revival Christians in my life. In the Christian world they're a known type. "God knows, I'm no angel, but Jesus is there when I need him".
The opening monologue to the Stones' "Girl with the Faraway Eyes" catches the type perfectly. Christianity means cutting a special deal with Jesus.
Possibly on-topic: Outside I overheard an undergraduate saying (approx.), "Reputation is really important, and in small towns, it gets set quickly, and then you have a lot of margin... So if you do something that's outside your reputation, you basically get a free ride on it."
Well, even if she's having sex, at least she's not reproducing.
Posted by SP | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 12:55 PM
I don't get it.
Posted by Urphf | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 12:57 PM
Kinda-sorta-related, if you look at it the right way: At the River Center here, which is a shelter, one constant, visible presence of aid workers is a group of scientologists from California. Many are young and attractive, with a bit of a rebellious look. I have not yet asked them about thetans.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 1:00 PM
This is one of the more frustrating things about the pro-life movement; there are so many stories of pro-life women who got pregnant, had the abortion, and it didn't seem at all strange for them to want to ban something they took advantage of.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 1:58 PM
I guess the thing that annoyed me about this is that pregnancy is really not so hard to prevent. To paraphrase Wilde, one unexpected pregnancy is tragic; three looks like carelessness. I mean, if you really thought this is murder...
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 2:13 PM
It's different, just knowing. My husband told me not to look [at the ultrasound]. This changes my feelings, but I'm sticking by it. Damn it, $650, I'm sticking by it.
I didn't really get that line-did she already pay and doesn't want to lose her deposit? Was she dazzled by the low, low prices? What is this, Crazy Vaclav's Abortion Emporium?
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 2:14 PM
There are many divorced Christians who don't believe in divorce and deep down think it should probably be outlawed, as well. Forgiveness is a dangerous thing.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 2:27 PM
When poor/black/liberal people do it, it's murder. When pro-life people do it, it's a tragic choice of necessity. Even moreso when it's your third one.
Posted by SP | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 2:46 PM
Oh... I get it now. It doesn't sound like this girl is particularly pro-life, though. She's not against it, her religion is against it (as she put it). And a pro-lifer doesn't pussy-foot around with phrases like "in a way I feel I'm doing wrong"... they're convinced beyond a doubt we're dealing with murder most foul.
She just sounds like a young confused girl who doesn't really know what she thinks about right and wrong, but sure knows that abortions can be convenient.
Posted by Urphf | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 5:08 PM
reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw years ago..."Christian's aren't perfect, just forgiven"...puleeez, what a cop out.
Posted by GSR | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 8:04 PM
I think this gets at something profound and not just a snark-attack target. If you look at truly "red-state" communities in the US, rural and peri-urban communities with high levels of reported attachment to cultural and religious conservatism, they're often communities that also have high reported rates of some of the social problems that figure high on the hit lists of cultural conservatives: high adultery rates, high divorce rates, high premarital sex rates, high abortion rates, and so on.
One of the things that's driving some religious conservatism at the everyday level is precisely a sense that there is a need for the state, or civil institutions, to regulate the same people who are calling for the regulation. "Keep me from doing that which I would otherwise do".
Posted by Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 8:14 PM
Religion is a choice, too.
Posted by ogmb | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 8:16 PM
Shorter 11: What's the matter with Kansas?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-17-05 8:36 PM
11: Surely that's part of it, but surely part of it is a failure to think things through. When Susie, your best friend, confesses to you she's pregnant, and she has an abortion, it's just a tragic but unavoidable fate. Susie isn't about having sex with no consequences, Susie's about responsibility, it's just that she can't go to college if she has a baby now, isn't it a shame, poor Susie. Lucky for Susie it was legal and safe, because sometimes kids make mistakes.
Which seems a reasonable position, but it never gets generalized beyond Susie/daughter/best friend; all those other women? Well, they're just liberals! or black! or black liberals! Killing babies just like Susie did, but Susie was a special case; none of those women could be in a similar situation. Just Susie. She's a good girl.
I understand forgiveness, and why it would be understandable to outlaw something you once did, but I can't understand why cases like Susie never gives the pro-lifers pause.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 7:16 AM
I think the "They're/we're good people" thought is a huge driving force in American politics. For instance, I think the hum-de-dum reaction to widespread torture by U.S. forces is explained partly by, "It can't be so bad, we're good people."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 12:48 PM
15, and the other half of that is we think they're bad people. "Oh, they were detained and impounded by the army. Of course they're bad. The Army never makes mistakes." It's Us vs. Them all the way, and that's a more fundamental attitude.
Posted by pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 1:20 PM
I also think this may explain the hum-de-dum attitude toward, say, what happened to the budget on W's watch. And, to be fair, some small fraction of the smoke currently coming out my ears.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 1:24 PM
From the point of view of Catholic theology, if I'm not mistaken, the woman who has sex, doesn't use birth control, gets pregnant three times, has an abortion, and sincerely repents of each one, goes to confession, etc. etc.--her soul is in a better state than mine, as I had sex before I got married (although I am now married & I never did anything, and I mean ANYTHING, except with my future husband) & now I use birth control, and I am completely unrepentant about either of these things.
This seems screwy to me, and not just because I don't think what I did were sins. It seems like even from the Catholic Church's perspective abortion is a far worse sin--it sets up bad incentives even from their perspective.
Except, I directly challenge their authority and she doesn't.
Posted by Katherine | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 4:24 PM
But surely taking the prospect of being forgiven in the future into account when considering present actions both games the system and makes sincere repentance rather unlikely, no?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 4:49 PM
I've known several revival Christians in my life. In the Christian world they're a known type. "God knows, I'm no angel, but Jesus is there when I need him".
The opening monologue to the Stones' "Girl with the Faraway Eyes" catches the type perfectly. Christianity means cutting a special deal with Jesus.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-18-05 8:01 PM
Possibly on-topic: Outside I overheard an undergraduate saying (approx.), "Reputation is really important, and in small towns, it gets set quickly, and then you have a lot of margin... So if you do something that's outside your reputation, you basically get a free ride on it."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-19-05 11:56 AM