Critical consensus is go for it. It's one of the most healthful changes you can make. There are some concerns oabout its affect on women with breast cancer and one study showing that Japanese men with VERY high levels of soy intake had more mental decline than those without, but the former don't affect you and the latter is both preliminary and, probably wrong. It's worth keeping in mind that 2/3rds of studies end up being proven incorrect. Other than that, the Japanese eat soy and they live absurdly long, healthy lives. It's good for your heart, low in bad fats, high in protein, and cheap as shit. Enjoy!
I can't direct students to Labs's list, in my official capacity, given the present vocabulary. And, my previous comment to the contrary, my scruples won't let me crib it. It's killing me, because it's a great list and the items all tie together (as Kieran says) and are of a piece.
I personally don't give a dang about whether or not food is GM, but here it is: soy is one of the biggest GM crops cultivated, and it has not been ruled out that the modifications could jump to other cultivars.
Slol, Unfogged's Creative Commons license allows you to crib what you want as long as it's attributed and you share alike. Since attribution doesn't have to mean a link (though we reserve the right to sue the pants off anyone else who doesn't link without special dispensation), I think you're ok.
Bad things you've heard about soy are grounded in the fact that the soy available in the USA is overwhelmingly GM. If you don't think this is a problem (and you shouldn't) you should eat soy. Now I've also heard it said that soy milk is somewhat more caloric than standard milk, but I can't see why normal adults would worry about something like that. If you happen to consume freakish, Armsmasheresque quantities of milk, that's another story.
Seriously, what I'm most curious about is just how much estrogen-mimicking stuff is in the soy products we consume, and what effect it has on our bodies.
Matt, thanks for that; that might be a solution. I was thinking I'd just edit out, with ellipses, the language that would offend old ladies in Dubuque and attribute the post appropriately.
I probably worry too much about these things, but some days you see things that make you think you can never worry too much.
And ogged, thanks for elucidating the Unfogged policy for litigious debagging.
Just drink milk. It's so good! I really don't understand how so few people enjoy a tall, ice-cold glass of milk before they go to bed. If you're interested in soy milk, what you really want is milk, and it's deleriously good for you if you don't suffer from lactose intolerance.
Actually, lactose free milk is even yummier than regular milk (the lactose is broken down into constituent sugars, so the milk is sweeter), and I do like it a lot. That's not to say you don't have mommy issues.
My understanding is that soy can potentially have an effect on your endocrine system similar to estrogen. But odds are that the effects are totally unnoticeable for everyone but kids (and may not be noticeable even for them). Soy-based infant formula strikes me as an unnecessary gamble, but otherwise the Japanese counterargument seems pretty convincing.
Anyway, is soy so delicious that this is a big worry? I say no. Fried tofu's okay once or twice a year, and soy sauce is important to sushi consumption, but otherwise I feel I can do without it. Also, soybean oil (although cheap and consequently omnipresent) is pretty rough on some people's stomachs.
But I'll probably be going by Whole Foods later tonight, so if someone wants to suggest a particular brand of soy-based culinary abomination, I'll give it another shot.
40 - I had dinner at Zen Palate just last night. Yummy, but it always feels like they're cheating because they fry the hell out of everything. Anything tastes good fried. Kind of defeats the health aspect of choosing vegetarian fare, too.
In Taiwan they have a fermented tofu called "stinky tofu". You can smell it a block away. It tastes great. It may cause stomach cancer in later life, but what the hey. You guys are not in later life.
Isn't even non-soy (that is to say, regular milk) yogurt supposed to be digestible for us lactose-intolerant types? I've personally never noticed the same degree of, shall we say, intolerance after eating yogurt that I experience after, say, ice cream.
And, just to jump back to earlier comments, I think drinking milk is kind of weird and gross, but that's probably because I grew up not allowed to drink milk with meals (Jewish) and so to me milk is just something you put in cereal.
Yes, M3, yogurt is said to be well-tolerated. I haven't had milk yogurt in so long, I don't even remember. Anyway, I like the soy stuff, and growing my own boobies seems like my best bet.
ogged, do the little enzyme pills not work for you? I still seem to be pretty lactose-tolerant, but if it came down to it I think I'd opt for carrying around a couple of lactaid tablets in my wallet rather than trying to choke down soy ice cream.
They work pretty well actually, within limits. For one big lactosey meal, like, say, pizza for dinner, the pills work well (they still screw up digestion a bit, but nothing uncomfortable). But if I do big lactose two days in a row, not so helpful. And meals that have the lactose doses spread out (cream soup, appetizer, entree, ice-cream, for example) are tough to do even with the pills. (One thing to know about the pills if you use them: fuck the recommended dosage, take several times that--this was advice given to me by a doctor friend, and it's been very helpful.)
You'll grow boobies from all the estrogen.
So that's a plus.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 2:25 PM
Soy beans are named from soy sauce, not the other way around.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:38 PM
Critical consensus is go for it. It's one of the most healthful changes you can make. There are some concerns oabout its affect on women with breast cancer and one study showing that Japanese men with VERY high levels of soy intake had more mental decline than those without, but the former don't affect you and the latter is both preliminary and, probably wrong. It's worth keeping in mind that 2/3rds of studies end up being proven incorrect. Other than that, the Japanese eat soy and they live absurdly long, healthy lives. It's good for your heart, low in bad fats, high in protein, and cheap as shit. Enjoy!
Posted by Ezra | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:45 PM
soy is a tool of the devil: a tool to give us yummy food, that is!
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:48 PM
Tom says soy bad.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:49 PM
It's worth keeping in mind that 2/3rds of studies end up being proven incorrect.
By other studies, I presume.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:57 PM
The really funny thing about Ezra's comment is that one third of studies are proven incorrect. link
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 4:58 PM
Scientific progress thanks you for the correction.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:00 PM
You know scientific progress? Ask him how he's been since he broke up with religious conviction.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:05 PM
Since sci-pro split with rel-co he's been wooed a bit by po-mo, but that seems to be a no-go.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:18 PM
His bleaks are bleaker
But his geeks are geeker—
Truth seeker gonna swish the beaker.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:24 PM
I can't direct students to Labs's list, in my official capacity, given the present vocabulary. And, my previous comment to the contrary, my scruples won't let me crib it. It's killing me, because it's a great list and the items all tie together (as Kieran says) and are of a piece.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:25 PM
I personally don't give a dang about whether or not food is GM, but here it is: soy is one of the biggest GM crops cultivated, and it has not been ruled out that the modifications could jump to other cultivars.
http://tinyurl.com/beubk
http://www.biotech-info.net/planting_up.html
Posted by TJ | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 5:54 PM
Slol, Unfogged's Creative Commons license allows you to crib what you want as long as it's attributed and you share alike. Since attribution doesn't have to mean a link (though we reserve the right to sue the pants off anyone else who doesn't link without special dispensation), I think you're ok.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 6:04 PM
SB, I'm a little disappointed you didn't try a "Sokal" rhyme in 10.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 6:06 PM
Sure, too much soy is probably bad for you, but isn't it pretty much accepted that too much of anything is bad for you?
Posted by Matt #3 | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 8:03 PM
Slol, is cribbing still a problem? I'm going to link FL's post, and if you want I can quote it all without the dirty parts.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 8:04 PM
If it wasn't bad for you, it wouldn't be too much of it.
I happen to know that too much of nothing makes a strong man a liar.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 8:05 PM
If it wasn't bad for you, it wouldn't be too much of it.
Here speaks a wise if ignorant man.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 8:09 PM
yeh, nothing about strong men at all.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 8:20 PM
Bad things you've heard about soy are grounded in the fact that the soy available in the USA is overwhelmingly GM. If you don't think this is a problem (and you shouldn't) you should eat soy. Now I've also heard it said that soy milk is somewhat more caloric than standard milk, but I can't see why normal adults would worry about something like that. If you happen to consume freakish, Armsmasheresque quantities of milk, that's another story.
Posted by Matthew Yglesias | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:20 PM
But what about estrogen, and boobies?
Seriously, what I'm most curious about is just how much estrogen-mimicking stuff is in the soy products we consume, and what effect it has on our bodies.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:23 PM
By your own admission, ogged, you have no ass; you may as well grow some boobies.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:28 PM
Matt, thanks for that; that might be a solution. I was thinking I'd just edit out, with ellipses, the language that would offend old ladies in Dubuque and attribute the post appropriately.
I probably worry too much about these things, but some days you see things that make you think you can never worry too much.
And ogged, thanks for elucidating the Unfogged policy for litigious debagging.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:28 PM
It's about to go up on my blog as soon as I get the links in.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:40 PM
scientific progress goes boink?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:41 PM
Done.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 10:44 PM
Just drink milk. It's so good! I really don't understand how so few people enjoy a tall, ice-cold glass of milk before they go to bed. If you're interested in soy milk, what you really want is milk, and it's deleriously good for you if you don't suffer from lactose intolerance.
Posted by Kriston | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 11:19 PM
There's something disconcerting about your apparent love for milk. I mean, it's just milk.
Anyway, I'm hella lactose intolerant (as are most of the people in the world, privileged white man.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 11:25 PM
Actually, lactose free milk is even yummier than regular milk (the lactose is broken down into constituent sugars, so the milk is sweeter), and I do like it a lot. That's not to say you don't have mommy issues.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 11:27 PM
Lactose intolerance is the normal way post-weaning. Lactose tolerance means never having to grow up.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 11:29 PM
Time to stop hitting the carton, Smasher, and grow up.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-27-05 11:33 PM
Why is there an issue about soy at all? Is there something I should know? Soy is just a kind of bean.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 6:07 AM
Lactose tolerance means never having a cavity.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 6:14 AM
Yes, milk is good food. All you lactose-intoleroids, have fun on the reservations. We're never going to honor those treaties.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 7:24 AM
Why is there an issue about soy at all? Is there something I should know? Soy is just a kind of bean.
Ogged has synthetic mommy–issues. Or, is looking into acquiring some.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 7:54 AM
My understanding is that soy can potentially have an effect on your endocrine system similar to estrogen. But odds are that the effects are totally unnoticeable for everyone but kids (and may not be noticeable even for them). Soy-based infant formula strikes me as an unnecessary gamble, but otherwise the Japanese counterargument seems pretty convincing.
Anyway, is soy so delicious that this is a big worry? I say no. Fried tofu's okay once or twice a year, and soy sauce is important to sushi consumption, but otherwise I feel I can do without it. Also, soybean oil (although cheap and consequently omnipresent) is pretty rough on some people's stomachs.
But I'll probably be going by Whole Foods later tonight, so if someone wants to suggest a particular brand of soy-based culinary abomination, I'll give it another shot.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 8:56 AM
If you're not lactose intolerant, I don't see any reason to go for soy. (That said, Silk's soy yogurt is really good. It's one of my staples.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 8:59 AM
edamame beans. The kind of fried tofu available at most dim sum places.
those are good.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:00 AM
At Zen Palate, they make all sorts of stuff with stuff, and some of that stuff involves soy, and it's good.
They dress it up to look like Beef Wellington and shit, though, which is weird.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:19 AM
38- I cannot abide Silk soy yogurt. Ick. And I'm someone who eats tofu and drinks soy milk all the time.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:29 AM
You're fired.
What don't you like about it? (Is there a soy yogurt you like better?)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:30 AM
I'm not a fan of soy yogurt in general.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:34 AM
In that case, I can assure you that Silk soy yogurt is the best there is (or the best I've had, anyway).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:35 AM
I have no beef with tofu.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:36 AM
You're fired.
Isn't a banning the traditional response?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:37 AM
This was more personal.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:38 AM
I have no fish with beef.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:39 AM
I'm special.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:40 AM
I'll have the beef with tofu and fish.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:42 AM
40 - I had dinner at Zen Palate just last night. Yummy, but it always feels like they're cheating because they fry the hell out of everything. Anything tastes good fried. Kind of defeats the health aspect of choosing vegetarian fare, too.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:47 AM
In Taiwan they have a fermented tofu called "stinky tofu". You can smell it a block away. It tastes great. It may cause stomach cancer in later life, but what the hey. You guys are not in later life.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:49 AM
Eh text, you like beef?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:49 AM
I once had a date with a girl who asked to meet me at a place that she called "Zen Pa-LOT-ay".
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:49 AM
Isn't even non-soy (that is to say, regular milk) yogurt supposed to be digestible for us lactose-intolerant types? I've personally never noticed the same degree of, shall we say, intolerance after eating yogurt that I experience after, say, ice cream.
And, just to jump back to earlier comments, I think drinking milk is kind of weird and gross, but that's probably because I grew up not allowed to drink milk with meals (Jewish) and so to me milk is just something you put in cereal.
Posted by Matt #3 | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:51 AM
What do you fucking want, Drymala, sympathy?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:51 AM
I do like beef. And stinky tofu. That file was a little disturbing.
Yogurt has enzymes, which do the digesting for you, and often result in very satisfying stools.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:54 AM
Yes, M3, yogurt is said to be well-tolerated. I haven't had milk yogurt in so long, I don't even remember. Anyway, I like the soy stuff, and growing my own boobies seems like my best bet.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:55 AM
Hey! It was more traumatic than you realize.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:57 AM
OH RIGHT BECAUSE YOU DON'T GO ON DATES. Sorry, ogged. Me and my big mouth.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:58 AM
Thanks, Joe, all better now.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 9:59 AM
ogged, do the little enzyme pills not work for you? I still seem to be pretty lactose-tolerant, but if it came down to it I think I'd opt for carrying around a couple of lactaid tablets in my wallet rather than trying to choke down soy ice cream.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 10:01 AM
Can you still eat calamari?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 10:03 AM
do the little enzyme pills not work for you?
They work pretty well actually, within limits. For one big lactosey meal, like, say, pizza for dinner, the pills work well (they still screw up digestion a bit, but nothing uncomfortable). But if I do big lactose two days in a row, not so helpful. And meals that have the lactose doses spread out (cream soup, appetizer, entree, ice-cream, for example) are tough to do even with the pills. (One thing to know about the pills if you use them: fuck the recommended dosage, take several times that--this was advice given to me by a doctor friend, and it's been very helpful.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 10:07 AM
Amen to that, ogged. I tend to pop two or three if I'm drinking a milkshake.
Posted by Matt #3 | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 11:15 AM
I'm not sure what kind of pills you have, M3, but I usually take seven or eight.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 11:20 AM
Ogged, I bow before your clearly superior lactose metabolization.
Posted by Matt #3 | Link to this comment | 09-28-05 2:56 PM