Yeah, not so much on the funny. But I appreciate the link anyway. I'm going to go ahead and admit it: especially after hearing her voice, I think Maureen Dowd is dead sexy.
Overly long perhaps, but I thought a handful were rather funny. Perhaps I'm being too charitable. Or the novocaine from the dentist this morning is messing with my head.
There's a lot of filler, but the high points justified the link, in my view. The one about Rather was good, as was the jab at TimesSelect. I also liked the quiche, even though that's a tired dig.
I think Saiselgy shows the flaw in Dowd's premise. It's really much more of a continuum. Somewhat smart and successful = turnoff. Smart and successful enough to offer you a job = hott.
We should set Saiselegy up with Dowd. He could be her boy-toy, and we could get constant updates on their relationship via gawker, wonkette, and the superficial. Hell, if they'll let us videotape it, we might be able to get some money from Fox for it.
How did we gain the power to set up anyone with Dowd, Saiselgy (though I might like SCMT's version with "elegy " in it better) or otherwise? Can we use this power for good, rather than evil?
Yeah, Becks has this right. Read this Dowd profile and you'll see that she only seems to date men (John Tierney, Aaron Sorkin, Michael Douglas, Leon Wieseltier) who are too successful to be able to benefit from her connections.
DeLong to Krugman to Dowd. And if she's dated either Tierney or Wieseltier (or, come to that, Douglas), she's not precisely picky. And we could refer to Saiselgy as "Hollywood heir, Saiselgy" from now on.
But really, this should go nowhere without Murdoch's sponsorship of the whole event.
Fontanta, I was agreeing! Agreeing! And as a neocon, I am committed to Manichaen oppositions: no dichotomies are ever false. Why do you hate America?
Also, while I wouldn't globally recommend Steve Sailer, it's pretty funny that he keeps referring to Dowds' articles as the continuing series "I Hate Men! (Why, Oh, Why Didn't a Man Ever Marry Me?)"
And Wehttam Saiselgy is correct that the explanation works both ways. Yes, it's true that many men are loath to 'date up' either in status or in age; but likewise many women are loath to date down. The dating plight of successful women can largely be explained by high standards. While Maureen cruises the limited pool of men who are unmarried, 55, and filthy rich, her target 50-something male I-banker happily bangs anyone with a pulse, a skirt, and a valid driver's license.
While I hate to defend Dowd even a little (I'm not terribly keen on her as a columnist, and complaining that nobody loves you does make you look like an ass) I can sort of see her point in one regard. Being powerful, and successful, and professionally accomplished are actively attractive if you're a man -- a single man with Dowd's resume wouldn't have any trouble getting all the romantic attention he wanted. For a woman, it's not a drawback, mostly, but no one's out there lusting after her because she's got an Op-Ed column in the Times. So, while I doubt that men are fleeing her because she's too smart and strongwilled for them, they also aren't flocking to her because of her accomplishments; her male peers, on the other hand, almost certainly have 'groupies'. I could see how the difference there could make a woman cranky after a while.
I have a of Dowd on TV opposite William Safire where she looked, well, ghoulish. Really bad makeup. There is no possibility of me ever thinking her hot after that.
her male peers, on the other hand, almost certainly have 'groupies'.
Maybe Krugman, because he's incendiary. But the others? Friedman? Tierny? Kristoff? I suppose crazier things happen.
But LB is right. A successful, attractive, connected 55 year old guy in NYC has to beat 'em off with a stick. That must be galling for Dowd. Too bad men and women aren't the same. That why we need Leon Kass given seminars on courtship at campuses nationwide.
But the others? Friedman? Tierny? Kristoff? I suppose crazier things happen.
I don't know a thing about any of their personal lives -- I'm generalizing madly. I'm just certain that the words "I have a column twice a week on the Op-Ed page of the Times" would be actively useful for attracting women; the natural response would be the head-tilt, eyelash-bat, "That must be so fascinating! Tell me, what's it like?", even if coming from an objectively repulsive person. I just don't see men responding the same way. Kissinger, rather than Albright, was the grotesque-looking Sec. of State who said "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac," -- I somehow doubt that men, whether of higher or lower status, were coming on to Albright because of her position.
(This does not mean that anyone owes Dowd a date, or that I see this as a gender inequity that needs to be remedied. Just that I could see how, in her position, I could get cranky.)
I just can't picture any human females giggling conspiratorially at some Starbucks where a lot of recent immigrants from central Asia tend to hang out: "Oh my God -- is that? No... Ohmygodohmygod -- it is! Thomas Friedman! [waving] Mr. Friedman! Mr. Friedman!"
Then they flash him.
I'll go on record as saying that I would date Maureen Dowd if she didn't mind a long-distance thing and didn't mind paying for dinner most of the time. Her columns aren't that great, but it's not like I'm shitting gold over at my blog every day, and I don't even have a word limit.
Well my feeling is that if A-list pundits have lots of groupies (as hypothesized in 33) then I ought to have at least some groupies. But not so much. Ergo, there are no Tom Friedman groupies.
Dowd looks great for someone in her fifties. And, as also noted previously, she's a redhead. Gail Collins, though, Saiselgy? She just looks like my aunt.
Looks like your aunt, sure, but does your aunt decide who gets to write op-eds for The New York Times? See 17. David Shipley won't return my emails and I can't even spell properly. Sleeping my way to the top is the only hope.
Anyone have a picture of Friedman driving a Lexus over an olive tree? With a caption reading: "One way to flatten the world"?
That's probably not funny, but it's at least as not funny as the Drudge Dowd caption suggestions.
I know, the thread has moved on to discussing the relative - and I stress the word relative - hotness of Times columnists, but not being among the Select I cannot afford to have an opinion on the subject.
David Brinkley spoke at my graduation ('92). I think he'd been hitting the bloody marys pretty hard that morning. Had a bit of a problem staying on topic.
Does anyone have a picture of an olive tree driving a Lexus over Friedman? With a caption reading:"One way to make Tom Freidman stop repeating corporate executives views on globalization"? I would wear a t-shirt emblazoned with it. I might even pay for such a t-shirt. The market should now produce one, right?
57: Given that Cala was the one who liked Coulter, and that Cala likes Adam's apples in general, I think we can conclude that tall and freakishly skinny is also Cala's type. A lotta people won't get no justice tonight...
It's terrifying how funny this blog is, sometimes. There are comment threads that I can read again and again, like good book. It'll be sad when Unfogged dies.
I have found no substitute for a fully functioning Unfogged. Most of the other blogs I read are either lefty news blogs (Atrios, Kos) where the comments are excruciating or funny parenting blogs (Daddyzine, Dooce) where the comments are nonexistent.
I met Wesley Clark in DFW airport! Well before the election, and I didn't have the balls to ask him whether he was going to run. Also didn't have the balls to join the military after he asked me to.
I met Wesley Clark during the election! He's short and wears some very prominent jewelry! And yet I think he could take about 10 of me. God, I miss Wesley Clark and Ogged!
Once again you are right on. The glory and tragedy for women is that their "hotness" arc peaks early and is based mostly on how well they can appear to be twenty five years old.
Men's hotness arc depends more on their power, meaning money and exposure, so it can peak much later.
I think to some extent this explains the similarity of young men to older woman - they both are prone to dissatisfaction, hostility and bitterness. They express these things differently, but the root cause is the same - they are not valued by society.
I'm not a fan of Dowd's writing. At all. And I think she's succumbing to an all-to-common idea; that nookie is handed out based on merit, like gold stars in elementary school.
"But I'm smart! I'm successful! I have red hair and horrible red shoes! Men must not like successful women!"
"But I'm a nice guy! I treat women well! Why do they not flock to me? Women must like abusive men!"
I think the standard is that if you say anything about Coulter that's not outright invective, it counts as 'liking'. We've got to lower the bar for her.
Agreed that Dowd is annoying and succumbing to the merit-badge theory--succumb to the Mineshaft instead! we'll treat you right--but she is nevertheless physically attractive. Got a bit of a Jodie Foster thing going on, maybe.
Kotsko: Too much philosophy. I can't get past all the serious posts.
One difference between old women/young men is that the woman's arc is trending downwards. She can slow it, maybe even reverse it, but not forever. A young man's arc is generally trending upwards.
As for Saiselgy - I think he is doing fine. He has started to figure things out. He's gaining visibility and power. His sexual arc is on the way up. Things will get easier for him.
Weiner, It's only this week -- kind of like the Unfogged reading group, but not agonizingly detailed and open-ended.
I think for this Unfogged ==> The Weblog transfer to work, you guys would have to like me personally a lot more than you currently do. Plus I'd have to completely change my blog.
You can't seriously maintain that "Saiselgy" is intuitively harder to pronounce than "Yglesias." It's just an intrinsically odd combination of letters.
But if you train to be a Sumo wrestler then don't be complaining if you don't win medals for the hundred yard dash.
Tripp, tell me how that doesn't translate to "If you are successful and intelligent and female and made the mistake of being educated, don't complain that the men don't like you."
Like I said, though, I don't think that Dowd's education/job/intelligence/lack of writing style is what is driving her unluckiness on the meat market. There's too many other factors, and clearly, the 20 and 30 something unfogged-commenters think she's hot, so..... maybe she needs to comment more?
So if we suppose that the pattern of sexual attractiveness is as described above, isn't that just vastly unfair to successful men? I mean, they'll be reaching their peak attractiveness at a time of their careers and lives when to avail themselves of their attractiveness would most likely be regarded as harassment, or (if they're married) betrayal of trust.
But if you train to be a Sumo wrestler then don't be complaining if you don't win medals for the hundred yard dash.
Tripp, tell me how that doesn't translate to "If you are successful and intelligent and female and made the mistake of being educated, don't complain that the men don't like you."
Huh? It translates to: Men like women who look like they are 18-25 and fit. If you don't look like that then don't complain about your other talents not mattering. They don't matter in this arena.
Dowd is hot, for a fifty year old, but not for a 25 year old. Her photo is staged. I don't know if she missed out when she was 25, or why.
Well, yeah. Marriage is the contract that is supposed to bind both parties while they have a mismatch. The woman is sharing her youth with the man with the promise that the man will share his future power with her.
That is why men who seek and get trophy wives are disdained. They are breaking their part of the bargain.
We put all sorts of facades on this and don't really talk about it in polite society because it is too personal and potentially hurtful but it is all around us, in spades.
Men like women who look like they are 18-25 and fit. If you don't look like that then don't complain about your other talents not mattering.
Thank heavens half the human race has a spokesman as articulate and appealing as you are, who can describe its perfectly uniform desires and needs. I'll remember not to whine too much when I don't get the attention that only Playmates deserve.
It was maybe a Crooked Timber post that featured an article about European emphasis on sexual maturity, husky voices, and other sexy things that most Americans only ever think about once (while watching The Graduate). I'm perfectly aware that most 25-y-os are hotter than 50-y-os, but Dowd is perhaps one of the exceptions that proves the rule.
Dude, Tripp, surely there's got to be more to it than 18-25 and fit. There's a rather wide range of what people find attractive, and it seems that some talents (great sense of humor, tolerance for geeks) can make up for others (plump rather than fit.)
118 -- The corduroy jacket adds a special something to the pirate costume. "Arrrgh, matey! I'll make you walk the plank...or flunk you on your midterm!"
And that's an unhappy view of marriage. (I'm envisioning a 40 year old woman berating her less than successful husband, "But I fucked you when I was 24!!!! And hot! Why aren't you rich?")
If that's how marriage works, then it may just be the best argument against S-SM I've heard; spare the poor gay people the ridiculousness of this institution.
I've always pronounced "Wettham" Weh-thm, and "Saiselgy" SAI-sl-gee. I picture a succesful young industrialist, educated at boarding school with people who pronounce "St. John" as sun-jun. Riding after hounds, pip-pip-cheerio, wot. He has a quick temper, because he was hazed regularly and not invited to the better parties because of his father's Albanian heritage.
You can't really compare the attractiveness of older women to (most) younger women; the two groups are measured on different axes. Younger women are attractive on fairly straightforward physical attributes or because of the future life they seem to promise (e.g. Daisy Buchanan). Older women are attractive because they know more than you, and there is always the chance that they will use this knowledge to break or permanently damage you. Thus, you can compare older women to younger women in attractiveness only if you restrict the latter group to alt-girls.
See, this is why things like this shouldn't be discussed in public, even among friends. I've hurt LBs feelings, and I really don't want to do that.
First, addressing the man's 'arc'. Of course simply being middle-aged doesn't make a man attractive. Of course not. God no, and I'm sure one can provide a zillion examples of unattractive middle-aged men.
But a man's attractiveness is based on power, which means money, or influence (in the case of artsy fartsy or pundits). Generally men accumulate more of this as they go along, if they apply themselves, so their arc generally rises for awhile.
Also, of course there is variabllity, and I cannot speak for all men. I am speaking in generalities, and if Dowd is addressing "men" in general then I will reply in general.
Thirdly, by all means, don't take my word on any of this. But at least look around at what people do instead of what they say and you'd be suprised at what you see. Generally people do what they want and say what they think you want.
92- Adam, you should ask for a set of keys to the Unfogged kingdom, and try to write posts in less-with-the-philosophy Oggedian style here. Once you've lulled everyone into a false sense of security, you can mastermind the Unfogged-->The Weblog transfer from within.
You give an extreme example. More common is "when we got married (and I was attractive but not incredibly so) you said we'd have a house (not really rich, but at least comfortable) someday. I need a place to raise a kid."
Much more common is two people who live by the vows they have made and enjoy a comfortable middle ground.
Oh, this thread can only go really good places now. Hmm...Hey Weiner, Your mother's hygiene is so dreadful, even the hounds refuse to nuzzle her groin!
Tripp, thing is, most of the couples I see that are around my age are 27 year old guys with 24 year old girlfriends, or 28 year old women with 27 year old boyfriends.
It seems that at least in my circle, both parties are banking on the others' potential in the long run; most of these 24 year old women aren't settling on their 27 year old boyfriend because they can't get that 50 year old lawyer. That's just observation, not what they're telling me.
You are proving my point. I'm sure you've had plenty of youthful good looks for awhile now but tell the truth, when did you start scoring? C'mon now. (And I'm not sure, are you claiming to be artsy fartsy, a pundit, or rich?)
I was talking about the same thing as LB is in 156, not the Spelling Marshall or whatever he calls himself. Sure, the actual event of the changeover wouldn't be that hard too find (though many many hits for real name, so it wouldn't be that easy either). But someone stumbling upon the fake name for the first time wouldn't really realize who it was, would they? On the other hand, if they were searching for the alias, I suppose they're just as likely to find this thread as the original changeover thread.
Mineshaft noms de plume aren't foolproof, but they allow someone to both write sex (ATM) and work on federally funded projects without any real worries.
152: Tripp, I'm 25, so by your model, should I even own a TiVo yet?
Hey Weiner, Your mother's hygiene is so dreadful, even the hounds refuse to nuzzle her groin!
Oh yeah, w/d? Well, your mother's so fucking tall, that people always assumed she would be a great basketball player, and she did have some natural talent, so she was pretty good at the game at most levels of play, and even got a scholarship to a prestigious university that cares about such things to play basketball for them! Problem was, she figured she could just rely on her basketball abilities, so she neglected her studies—but when it came to basketball, she figured she could rely on her height and innate skill. She didn't train hard, and neglected to develop her talents. So she fell behind both academically and basketballically, meaning that, though she never lost her scholarship, she never really had a shot at supporting herself through her sport, and she had to take a distinctly sub-par job after graduation, because she had no family connections and her courses and grades were pretty bad. In fact, she now works two bad jobs (something I'm sure you know), and cries herself to sleep at night, thinking of what might have been.
In what way? I mean, yeah, sure, though he's toned down the tiresome and often inappropriate moralizing since getting the boot from ESPN. (TMQ was, of course, best at Slate.)
(And I avoid his non-football stuff.)
(Or are you saying that he's wrong about blitzes?)
I think he's more right than wrong about blitzes. Also, the shuttle. And I did like TMQ back when it was at Slate. It was shorter, and in a less-horrible format. But then, I liked Slate back then too, so.
But he's kind of like a friendly guy in a bar who, the longer you talk to him, the more you think there's something not quite right. And you begin to wonder, can I get out of here without him following me? If I do, am I sure he's not following me?
Oh, I got the signal. Unfortunately, I've got a full day of QCing clinical study reports. ("No, that should go to reference 23, not 22. And the denominator for this column should be total randomized patients, not total enrolled.")
About 100 comments too late, though, I'd like to add that when I reached my 30s, all kinds of women in their 40s and 50 became very sexually compelling. Also, when you're a a man in your early 30s flirting with a woman in her late 40s or early 50s, the response is generally way more positive than it is from the hot youngsters.
The problem with Tripp's 122 is that it assumes that being female and 18-25 is some sort of choice. You can't train to be male or female. Plus, I saw Dowd on TV; the photo isn't that doctored.
About 175 comments too late, getting back to that photo in the original post, and I know I'm really going to regret this, but I present for your reading pleasure . . .
Hello . . . Well, to tell the truth, I was just about to leave, but . . . OK, I'll have a scotch on the rocks . . . So, what's your name? . . . I'm Maureen . . . Oh, you did recognize me. Well, I guess you know all about me, so let's talk about you. . . Blogs? Yes, I read them from time to time. I try to read a variety of them across the political spectrum. . . . My favorite one? That's hard to say. Hmm . . . Well, there's one that I keep coming back to. A colleague of mine kept emailing me links to this one particular blog, and at first I coudn't figure out what the big deal about it was. . . . . Sure, I'll have another drink. . . . Oh, so one day I started reading the comments at this blog, and at first I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but for some reason I kept reading, and I started to get some of the in-jokes, and I have to admit I became kind of addicted to it . . . Oh, it's called "Unfogged" . . . You're kidding! Do you comment there? Because I don't recall seeing your . . . Of course, a pseudonym. So who are . . . Wait, don't tell me! Let me guess . . . I saw the pictures on that Frapper post, so I know you're not . . . You wouldn't by any chance be . . . You are! Oh, this is so unbelievable! . . . Bartender, one more please! . . . I really can't believe this! I mean, I always tried to picture what the various commenters looked like, and I would have these mental images of them, but I could never settle on one image for you . . . You, know, one time I . . . No, it's too embarassing . . . No, really . . . OK. I can't believe I'm telling you this . . . Sometimes I read Unfogged when I'm all alone really late at night, and I'll look for threads that are full of innuendoes, and sometimes I can't stop laughing, but sometimes I . . . well . . . touch myself . . . Don't laugh! . . . Anyway, one time I was reading a really long thread and I came to one of your comments, and as I was reading it I suddenly had the most incredible . . . Oh! Well, I don't know, I mean . . . I'm in room 214. I'll see you in five minutes . . .
What's wrong with that? There's a lot of airbrushing, photoshopping, etc. that you can do easily with a still photo but would be much harder and less likely in a TV appearance.
but Tripp, the guest doesn't pay the makeup artist. The way you judge hottness on television is by comparison to other people on television.
I know this thread is already over, but i have to point out that success and power often make an older man marriageable without making him sexually attractive. Exhibit A, Donald Trump. Unless the pre-nup requires that the trophy wife produce fake orgasms on a regular basis, such persons may their trophy marriages rather disappointing--one reason perhaps, why they have to keep on trading 'em in.
Paul Krugman is happily married to Robin Wells, people. And if our list of volunteers for Maureen Dowd to pick from is confined to Adam Kotsko--well, that's not sufficient.
As long as we are living in a fantasy mirror world I'll add my name to the Maureen Dowd potential date list. Just to give her a choice, you understand. I'm ever the gentleman.
An idealized version of me endowed with complete knowledge and perfect instrumental rationality would want himself, if he were in my shoes, to want to ask you why you don't come over here and make me, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.
(I mean, it may be that there's something deeply wrong with what I'm saying, but I can't help think that in this particular context--Dowd, as I understand, is complaining that she never did get the chance to get married and, perhaps, have children--I didn't read the article, do you think I'm nuts?--there is something ironic about the fact that if she had, we would consider her a MILF. But now that I think of it, I am probably not only being sexist but mocking another's pain in a truly horrible way. When I should be grading papers and working on the talk I'm giving next week. Hm.)
NYTOECILF, pronounced Nye-toe-silf (op-ed columist). I'm pretty sure she's the only one of the species. Well, unless, y'know, with the right bottle of wine, proper lighting, and the proper outfit, then maybe...
Sometimes, a list of captions makes me laugh so hard I can't breathe. That is a list of captions.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:27 PM
Is the link SFW?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:29 PM
It's fine, nothing vulgar there. Just hilarious.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:35 PM
You (and Labs) really thought they were funny?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:42 PM
Yeah, not so much on the funny. But I appreciate the link anyway. I'm going to go ahead and admit it: especially after hearing her voice, I think Maureen Dowd is dead sexy.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:48 PM
I'm with Bridgeplate. The first three or four, I could see maybe a light chuckle. After that--eh, with a sprinkling of yeesh here and there.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:48 PM
Overly long perhaps, but I thought a handful were rather funny. Perhaps I'm being too charitable. Or the novocaine from the dentist this morning is messing with my head.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:51 PM
See, I would think she was sexy, but she's too damn smart and successful. That's just a huge turnoff.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 1:54 PM
Sorry, I'm with SB, too (although thanks for 3).
Maureen Dowd sexy? Only if I'd never read a word she'd written.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:03 PM
So who should we try to set her up with? Ben Wolfson? Ogged? Mark Kleiman?
Posted by Brad DeLong | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:10 PM
There's a lot of filler, but the high points justified the link, in my view. The one about Rather was good, as was the jab at TimesSelect. I also liked the quiche, even though that's a tired dig.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:14 PM
I'm with Armsmasher. I've had a crush on her ever since they switched to the most recent photo on her columns.
Definitely the hottest current NYT columnist.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:16 PM
Yeah, the Times Select thing was comedy gold people! Sheesh!
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:18 PM
baa, are you ridiculing me or agreeing with me? I can never tell. Bonus points if you say "false dichotomy!" in response.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:24 PM
Now Gail Collins who edits the whole page -- that's teh hott.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:34 PM
Now Gail Collins who edits the whole page -- that's teh hott.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:34 PM
I think Saiselgy shows the flaw in Dowd's premise. It's really much more of a continuum. Somewhat smart and successful = turnoff. Smart and successful enough to offer you a job = hott.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:41 PM
We should set Saiselegy up with Dowd. He could be her boy-toy, and we could get constant updates on their relationship via gawker, wonkette, and the superficial. Hell, if they'll let us videotape it, we might be able to get some money from Fox for it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 2:48 PM
How did we gain the power to set up anyone with Dowd, Saiselgy (though I might like SCMT's version with "elegy " in it better) or otherwise? Can we use this power for good, rather than evil?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:01 PM
Yeah, Becks has this right. Read this Dowd profile and you'll see that she only seems to date men (John Tierney, Aaron Sorkin, Michael Douglas, Leon Wieseltier) who are too successful to be able to benefit from her connections.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:01 PM
DeLong to Krugman to Dowd. And if she's dated either Tierney or Wieseltier (or, come to that, Douglas), she's not precisely picky. And we could refer to Saiselgy as "Hollywood heir, Saiselgy" from now on.
But really, this should go nowhere without Murdoch's sponsorship of the whole event.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:17 PM
Fontanta, I was agreeing! Agreeing! And as a neocon, I am committed to Manichaen oppositions: no dichotomies are ever false. Why do you hate America?
Also, while I wouldn't globally recommend Steve Sailer, it's pretty funny that he keeps referring to Dowds' articles as the continuing series "I Hate Men! (Why, Oh, Why Didn't a Man Ever Marry Me?)"
And Wehttam Saiselgy is correct that the explanation works both ways. Yes, it's true that many men are loath to 'date up' either in status or in age; but likewise many women are loath to date down. The dating plight of successful women can largely be explained by high standards. While Maureen cruises the limited pool of men who are unmarried, 55, and filthy rich, her target 50-something male I-banker happily bangs anyone with a pulse, a skirt, and a valid driver's license.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:29 PM
and a valid driver's license.
Posted by baa
This would likely exclude many young foreigners, so I doubt it's true.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:53 PM
looks like I copied/pasted a bit too much.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:53 PM
While I hate to defend Dowd even a little (I'm not terribly keen on her as a columnist, and complaining that nobody loves you does make you look like an ass) I can sort of see her point in one regard. Being powerful, and successful, and professionally accomplished are actively attractive if you're a man -- a single man with Dowd's resume wouldn't have any trouble getting all the romantic attention he wanted. For a woman, it's not a drawback, mostly, but no one's out there lusting after her because she's got an Op-Ed column in the Times. So, while I doubt that men are fleeing her because she's too smart and strongwilled for them, they also aren't flocking to her because of her accomplishments; her male peers, on the other hand, almost certainly have 'groupies'. I could see how the difference there could make a woman cranky after a while.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:54 PM
I have a of Dowd on TV opposite William Safire where she looked, well, ghoulish. Really bad makeup. There is no possibility of me ever thinking her hot after that.
her male peers, on the other hand, almost certainly have 'groupies'.
Maybe Krugman, because he's incendiary. But the others? Friedman? Tierny? Kristoff? I suppose crazier things happen.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:59 PM
At least her lack of success in dating gives her more time to do all the rigorous research that goes into each and everyone one of her columns.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 3:59 PM
Kotsko, that's superb.
But LB is right. A successful, attractive, connected 55 year old guy in NYC has to beat 'em off with a stick. That must be galling for Dowd. Too bad men and women aren't the same. That why we need Leon Kass given seminars on courtship at campuses nationwide.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:02 PM
This seems like a good question for us males: Is there any position which makes a woman more attractive to you?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:03 PM
If anyone "ATM"s that, I'll punch them.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:03 PM
I apparantly construed "peers" too narowly in 26.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:05 PM
Michael, you're gonna have to rephrase, 'cuz as written, all I'm coming up with are crudities. (E.g.: Yes, the one you took in your Frappr picture.)
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:08 PM
But the others? Friedman? Tierny? Kristoff? I suppose crazier things happen.
I don't know a thing about any of their personal lives -- I'm generalizing madly. I'm just certain that the words "I have a column twice a week on the Op-Ed page of the Times" would be actively useful for attracting women; the natural response would be the head-tilt, eyelash-bat, "That must be so fascinating! Tell me, what's it like?", even if coming from an objectively repulsive person. I just don't see men responding the same way. Kissinger, rather than Albright, was the grotesque-looking Sec. of State who said "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac," -- I somehow doubt that men, whether of higher or lower status, were coming on to Albright because of her position.
(This does not mean that anyone owes Dowd a date, or that I see this as a gender inequity that needs to be remedied. Just that I could see how, in her position, I could get cranky.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:09 PM
I just can't picture any human females giggling conspiratorially at some Starbucks where a lot of recent immigrants from central Asia tend to hang out: "Oh my God -- is that? No... Ohmygodohmygod -- it is! Thomas Friedman! [waving] Mr. Friedman! Mr. Friedman!"
Then they flash him.
I'll go on record as saying that I would date Maureen Dowd if she didn't mind a long-distance thing and didn't mind paying for dinner most of the time. Her columns aren't that great, but it's not like I'm shitting gold over at my blog every day, and I don't even have a word limit.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:11 PM
A successful, attractive, connected 55 year old guy in NYC has to beat 'em off with a stick.
Whatever happened to just using a nicely warmed hand, maybe some lube?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:12 PM
Dude...
Guys...
You think Dowd's hot??
Less TiVo, more going out.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:14 PM
32. I'm beginning to think the question was silly. I am really fuzzy-headed right now.
I was thinking 36, but was being wussy about it.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:17 PM
Dowd is a redhead, which brings her up quite a bit. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say hott, but when the competition is Ann Coulter...
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:17 PM
Coulter's got better legs.
And better taste in shoes.
Dowd does have nice hair, though.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:18 PM
Coulter's got the batshit-rabid-insane thing, though.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:20 PM
That's a plus?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:21 PM
Dowd is looking good for someone in her fifties. Lets see Krugman date a movie star.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:25 PM
Well my feeling is that if A-list pundits have lots of groupies (as hypothesized in 33) then I ought to have at least some groupies. But not so much. Ergo, there are no Tom Friedman groupies.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:37 PM
Dowd looks great for someone in her fifties. And, as also noted previously, she's a redhead. Gail Collins, though, Saiselgy? She just looks like my aunt.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:40 PM
Looks like your aunt, sure, but does your aunt decide who gets to write op-eds for The New York Times? See 17. David Shipley won't return my emails and I can't even spell properly. Sleeping my way to the top is the only hope.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:42 PM
When Tom Friedman spoke at my graduation, the women swooned.
This may have been because of the mid-90's heat and the graduation gowns.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:44 PM
Anyone have a picture of Friedman driving a Lexus over an olive tree? With a caption reading: "One way to flatten the world"?
That's probably not funny, but it's at least as not funny as the Drudge Dowd caption suggestions.
I know, the thread has moved on to discussing the relative - and I stress the word relative - hotness of Times columnists, but not being among the Select I cannot afford to have an opinion on the subject.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 4:50 PM
David Brinkley spoke at my graduation ('92). I think he'd been hitting the bloody marys pretty hard that morning. Had a bit of a problem staying on topic.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:37 PM
Coulter's got better legs. And better taste in shoes.
And an adam's apple. But to each her own.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:40 PM
Does anyone have a picture of an olive tree driving a Lexus over Friedman? With a caption reading:"One way to make Tom Freidman stop repeating corporate executives views on globalization"? I would wear a t-shirt emblazoned with it. I might even pay for such a t-shirt. The market should now produce one, right?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:41 PM
Coulter vs. Dowd: Dowd's arm bones don't stick out through her skin, either, or if they do she's smart enough to cover them up.
Now, can anyone here explain what "Less TiVo" is supposed to mean? I've lost my, er, grip on the metaphor.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:46 PM
I don't think there's a consistent meaning for "less TiVo".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:47 PM
The meaning is: more TiVo.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:49 PM
certainly not a morally consistent meaning- I ouldn't wish less TiVo on my worst enemy...
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:49 PM
er... wouldn't. Unless you want to question my manhood by suggesting I couldn't.
Posted by mike d | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:50 PM
Maureen Dowd is not hot for a woman in a her 50s. She's a hot woman in her 50s.
However, her whole "I'd be just like Rosalind Russell in His Girl Friday if it weren't for those damned feminists!" schtick is pretty shameful.
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 5:57 PM
I agree that Coulter is rather mannish. Perhaps a good match for Ogged then?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 6:00 PM
It's impossible to judge Dowd because her makeup is always so awful. I suspect she has bad skin, a personal bugaboo. But otherwise, clearly hott.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 6:04 PM
57: Given that Cala was the one who liked Coulter, and that Cala likes Adam's apples in general, I think we can conclude that tall and freakishly skinny is also Cala's type. A lotta people won't get no justice tonight...
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 6:17 PM
I would be remiss in not linking to the tragic sequel.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 6:17 PM
It's terrifying how funny this blog is, sometimes. There are comment threads that I can read again and again, like good book. It'll be sad when Unfogged dies.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 6:30 PM
It hasn't? Aren't we all frantically trying to make out with a corpse? (No offense, Labs.)
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 8:43 PM
Ogged hasn't broken up with us! We're just seeing other blogs for a while.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 8:50 PM
Now, now we all knew this had to happen eventually. Also, Happy Halloween.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:11 PM
It's not you, it's me.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:12 PM
I have found no substitute for a fully functioning Unfogged. Most of the other blogs I read are either lefty news blogs (Atrios, Kos) where the comments are excruciating or funny parenting blogs (Daddyzine, Dooce) where the comments are nonexistent.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:14 PM
No, it's true, there is no substitute. How do I love thee, Unfogged? Let me count the ways....
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:16 PM
Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:19 PM
[He's on a roll.]
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:21 PM
How long do hiati last, anyway?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:25 PM
There's four caesuras to a fermata, but I think that's metric, so if you want to convert to hiati you have to multiply by 9/5 and add 32....
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:30 PM
There's lots of posts in the archives with few or no comments. We could go bring them back up.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:37 PM
Say, what about that Kerry fellow anyway? With his Vietnam record I'm sure he could take Bush.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:39 PM
Ixnay on the electionway!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:44 PM
I never knew this about Wesley Clark.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 9:45 PM
Aren't we all frantically trying to make out with a corpse?
Yes, but I got tired, so I thought I'd see what was going on here instead.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 10:42 PM
"This seems like a good question for us males: Is there any position which makes a woman more attractive to you?"
Well, my wife was, briefly, pictured on the side of a Czech beer bottle while holding foaming 'steins' of beer. Really.
Beer is teh hot.
Posted by Matt NattarGcM | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 11:25 PM
Being a musician.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10-31-05 11:40 PM
Regarding pundits, groupies, and sex scandals -- George Will had his own sex scandal. Really.
Wife, hot girlfriend, furniture on the front lawn, new wife (not the girlfriend), second new wife, etc.
If George can do it, any pundit can.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 4:19 AM
I met Wesley Clark in DFW airport! Well before the election, and I didn't have the balls to ask him whether he was going to run. Also didn't have the balls to join the military after he asked me to.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 5:40 AM
I met Wesley Clark during the election! He's short and wears some very prominent jewelry! And yet I think he could take about 10 of me. God, I miss Wesley Clark and Ogged!
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 6:48 AM
I met Wesley Clark during the election! He's short
I met Bill Clinton during the '92 election. He's gigantic - much bigger man than is apparent on television.
If George can do it, any pundit can.
Except Derbyshire.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 7:16 AM
Re:25,
Lizardbreath,
Once again you are right on. The glory and tragedy for women is that their "hotness" arc peaks early and is based mostly on how well they can appear to be twenty five years old.
Men's hotness arc depends more on their power, meaning money and exposure, so it can peak much later.
I think to some extent this explains the similarity of young men to older woman - they both are prone to dissatisfaction, hostility and bitterness. They express these things differently, but the root cause is the same - they are not valued by society.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 7:19 AM
59: I what now?
I'm not a fan of Dowd's writing. At all. And I think she's succumbing to an all-to-common idea; that nookie is handed out based on merit, like gold stars in elementary school.
"But I'm smart! I'm successful! I have red hair and horrible red shoes! Men must not like successful women!"
"But I'm a nice guy! I treat women well! Why do they not flock to me? Women must like abusive men!"
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 7:41 AM
I have traditionally offered my site as a suitable replacement for Unfogged at times like this.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 7:49 AM
Hitting on the widow at a wake - nice, Adam.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:05 AM
Cala,
Good points.
Nookie is similar to gold stars in one way. You can get both by figuring out what the other person wants and then giving it to them.
But if you train to be a Sumo wrestler then don't be complaining if you don't win medals for the hundred yard dash.
And vice versa.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:08 AM
I think the standard is that if you say anything about Coulter that's not outright invective, it counts as 'liking'. We've got to lower the bar for her.
Agreed that Dowd is annoying and succumbing to the merit-badge theory--succumb to the Mineshaft instead! we'll treat you right--but she is nevertheless physically attractive. Got a bit of a Jodie Foster thing going on, maybe.
Kotsko: Too much philosophy. I can't get past all the serious posts.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:09 AM
84 & 87 – Saiselgy wrote the best take on the distribution of sex relative to merit that I've seen.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:17 AM
Who? I'm pretty sure Matthew Y. wrote that post.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:21 AM
One difference between old women/young men is that the woman's arc is trending downwards. She can slow it, maybe even reverse it, but not forever. A young man's arc is generally trending upwards.
As for Saiselgy - I think he is doing fine. He has started to figure things out. He's gaining visibility and power. His sexual arc is on the way up. Things will get easier for him.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:26 AM
Weiner, It's only this week -- kind of like the Unfogged reading group, but not agonizingly detailed and open-ended.
I think for this Unfogged ==> The Weblog transfer to work, you guys would have to like me personally a lot more than you currently do. Plus I'd have to completely change my blog.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:26 AM
Yeah, sorry, I realized my mistake after I posted it.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:27 AM
We like you! We really like you! But you will have to completely change the blog.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:29 AM
Is anyone else mentally pronouncing Saiselgy's name as Wet Ham, Sausagely? Or is that just me?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:34 AM
That's a lot better than how I was mentally transforming it (Witthelm Saiselegy). It's like a complimentary closing.
Sausagely,
Wet Ham.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:38 AM
My mental reaction to Saiselgy here. I like yours better.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:38 AM
Why do you need to pronounce it?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:39 AM
Wet Ham, Sausagely
A great name for a Jew.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:40 AM
Why do you need to pronounce it?
It's the volunteer work I do, reading Unfogged comment threads to the blind.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:43 AM
101!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:43 AM
For Protestants: wet bacon?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:44 AM
I was thinking of it as Wet Him Sessigelly, "sessigel" being, perhaps, a synonym for seasonal.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:47 AM
I pronounce it 'Sagely'. But not 'sage' as in 'wise', but 'sage' as in 'an herb that goes pleasantly with chicken.'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:48 AM
Or pork products, as the case may be.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:49 AM
SCMTim, you need to pronounce it because it invites pronunciation. If you refuse, you estrange yourself from language. Saiselgy Saiselgy Saiselgy.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:50 AM
You can't seriously maintain that "Saiselgy" is intuitively harder to pronounce than "Yglesias." It's just an intrinsically odd combination of letters.
Posted by Wehttam Saiselgy | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:51 AM
But if you train to be a Sumo wrestler then don't be complaining if you don't win medals for the hundred yard dash.
Tripp, tell me how that doesn't translate to "If you are successful and intelligent and female and made the mistake of being educated, don't complain that the men don't like you."
Like I said, though, I don't think that Dowd's education/job/intelligence/lack of writing style is what is driving her unluckiness on the meat market. There's too many other factors, and clearly, the 20 and 30 something unfogged-commenters think she's hot, so..... maybe she needs to comment more?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:55 AM
"Saiselgy": pronounced SAIZE uhl jee
(think "syzygy", only different)
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:55 AM
Ditto that, Toads.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:55 AM
Thank you for 107. I no longer feel like the Bob Novak of Unfogged.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:57 AM
Obviously the 'g' is silent in Saiselgy.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 8:58 AM
maybe she needs to comment more
Who says she ain't? J'accuse, Cala!
109/110: The 's' is soft, just like his gentle hands.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:01 AM
See, 113 disproves 43. Saiselgy has groupies, just not the kind he was hoping for.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:04 AM
We already knew that.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:07 AM
I would be a Sagely groupie, but he can't spell, and I've heard that's a sign of laziness.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:10 AM
Look at how he spells Sagely, for goodness sake.
I'm out of the groupie market these days, but I did send in my boxtops to get the Sagely fan-club "Princess" sunvisor.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:18 AM
Should have saved your points, LB, and you might've picked up a lock from Swashbuckling Sagely.
(I'm betraying a fundamental trust here, I do realize.)
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:20 AM
So if we suppose that the pattern of sexual attractiveness is as described above, isn't that just vastly unfair to successful men? I mean, they'll be reaching their peak attractiveness at a time of their careers and lives when to avail themselves of their attractiveness would most likely be regarded as harassment, or (if they're married) betrayal of trust.
I sympathize with highly successful men.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:27 AM
The poor dears.
And oooo, a compelling picture of Black Matt, Terror of the Web.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:33 AM
Why not change the spelling to Wittham Sagely, thereby reducing the recognizability of the name?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:33 AM
But if you train to be a Sumo wrestler then don't be complaining if you don't win medals for the hundred yard dash.
Tripp, tell me how that doesn't translate to "If you are successful and intelligent and female and made the mistake of being educated, don't complain that the men don't like you."
Huh? It translates to: Men like women who look like they are 18-25 and fit. If you don't look like that then don't complain about your other talents not mattering. They don't matter in this arena.
Dowd is hot, for a fifty year old, but not for a 25 year old. Her photo is staged. I don't know if she missed out when she was 25, or why.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:34 AM
Oh! A geek in a wig!
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:39 AM
slolern,
Well, yeah. Marriage is the contract that is supposed to bind both parties while they have a mismatch. The woman is sharing her youth with the man with the promise that the man will share his future power with her.
That is why men who seek and get trophy wives are disdained. They are breaking their part of the bargain.
We put all sorts of facades on this and don't really talk about it in polite society because it is too personal and potentially hurtful but it is all around us, in spades.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:39 AM
Men like women who look like they are 18-25 and fit. If you don't look like that then don't complain about your other talents not mattering.
Thank heavens half the human race has a spokesman as articulate and appealing as you are, who can describe its perfectly uniform desires and needs. I'll remember not to whine too much when I don't get the attention that only Playmates deserve.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:42 AM
It was maybe a Crooked Timber post that featured an article about European emphasis on sexual maturity, husky voices, and other sexy things that most Americans only ever think about once (while watching The Graduate). I'm perfectly aware that most 25-y-os are hotter than 50-y-os, but Dowd is perhaps one of the exceptions that proves the rule.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:43 AM
Marriage is the contract that is supposed to bind both parties while they have a mismatch.
Well, maybe marriage does do that, but do you really think it's supposed to do that?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:45 AM
The poor dears.
Careful, LB, they can hear us.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:47 AM
Dude, Tripp, surely there's got to be more to it than 18-25 and fit. There's a rather wide range of what people find attractive, and it seems that some talents (great sense of humor, tolerance for geeks) can make up for others (plump rather than fit.)
(Shorter me: Ugly people get married, too!)
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:50 AM
128: Highly successful men? Here?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:52 AM
And I'm not certain that all middle-aged men are compellingly powerful. It's possible, but I can't say as it's been established.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:53 AM
118 -- The corduroy jacket adds a special something to the pirate costume. "Arrrgh, matey! I'll make you walk the plank...or flunk you on your midterm!"
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:53 AM
"Drink up, me hearties, yo ho! But only if you want to. I respect your personal autonomy and never would force alcohol on you."
"yo ho."
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:54 AM
Dowd is amazing now, but can you imagine being in the delivery room when she'd giving bir....
Posted by bill | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:55 AM
See, that's what makes women in their fifties so sexually compelling. Absolutely no risk that one would be forced to watch them give birth.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 9:56 AM
And that's an unhappy view of marriage. (I'm envisioning a 40 year old woman berating her less than successful husband, "But I fucked you when I was 24!!!! And hot! Why aren't you rich?")
If that's how marriage works, then it may just be the best argument against S-SM I've heard; spare the poor gay people the ridiculousness of this institution.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:02 AM
I've always pronounced "Wettham" Weh-thm, and "Saiselgy" SAI-sl-gee. I picture a succesful young industrialist, educated at boarding school with people who pronounce "St. John" as sun-jun. Riding after hounds, pip-pip-cheerio, wot. He has a quick temper, because he was hazed regularly and not invited to the better parties because of his father's Albanian heritage.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:02 AM
Cala--the ugly women do the housework, thus making up for their lack of hottness.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:04 AM
You can't really compare the attractiveness of older women to (most) younger women; the two groups are measured on different axes. Younger women are attractive on fairly straightforward physical attributes or because of the future life they seem to promise (e.g. Daisy Buchanan). Older women are attractive because they know more than you, and there is always the chance that they will use this knowledge to break or permanently damage you. Thus, you can compare older women to younger women in attractiveness only if you restrict the latter group to alt-girls.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:05 AM
See, this is why things like this shouldn't be discussed in public, even among friends. I've hurt LBs feelings, and I really don't want to do that.
First, addressing the man's 'arc'. Of course simply being middle-aged doesn't make a man attractive. Of course not. God no, and I'm sure one can provide a zillion examples of unattractive middle-aged men.
But a man's attractiveness is based on power, which means money, or influence (in the case of artsy fartsy or pundits). Generally men accumulate more of this as they go along, if they apply themselves, so their arc generally rises for awhile.
Also, of course there is variabllity, and I cannot speak for all men. I am speaking in generalities, and if Dowd is addressing "men" in general then I will reply in general.
Thirdly, by all means, don't take my word on any of this. But at least look around at what people do instead of what they say and you'd be suprised at what you see. Generally people do what they want and say what they think you want.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:06 AM
Trust me. I'm devastated.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:07 AM
92- Adam, you should ask for a set of keys to the Unfogged kingdom, and try to write posts in less-with-the-philosophy Oggedian style here. Once you've lulled everyone into a false sense of security, you can mastermind the Unfogged-->The Weblog transfer from within.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:09 AM
in the case of artsy fartsy or pundits
Dude, are you singling out me and MY? If I may say, we're as hot as any middle-aged man on the street.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:09 AM
TAP doesn't pay Saiselgy enough to keep him off the street?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:11 AM
Can I have a do-over on that comment?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:12 AM
It's the Buddy Holly glasses on the both of you. Women go weak at the knees.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:12 AM
Cala,
And that's an unhappy view of marriage.
You give an extreme example. More common is "when we got married (and I was attractive but not incredibly so) you said we'd have a house (not really rich, but at least comfortable) someday. I need a place to raise a kid."
Much more common is two people who live by the vows they have made and enjoy a comfortable middle ground.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:12 AM
Trust me. I'm devastated.
Awesome. Touche!
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:14 AM
92 - Adam, I like you plenty. I just don't understand 75% of what gets posted on your website. Here, it's like 5%.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:14 AM
Oh, this thread can only go really good places now. Hmm...Hey Weiner, Your mother's hygiene is so dreadful, even the hounds refuse to nuzzle her groin!
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:14 AM
Tripp, thing is, most of the couples I see that are around my age are 27 year old guys with 24 year old girlfriends, or 28 year old women with 27 year old boyfriends.
It seems that at least in my circle, both parties are banking on the others' potential in the long run; most of these 24 year old women aren't settling on their 27 year old boyfriend because they can't get that 50 year old lawyer. That's just observation, not what they're telling me.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:17 AM
Armsmasher,
You are proving my point. I'm sure you've had plenty of youthful good looks for awhile now but tell the truth, when did you start scoring? C'mon now. (And I'm not sure, are you claiming to be artsy fartsy, a pundit, or rich?)
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:18 AM
152: When his girlfriend went to Georgia, duh.
(Sorry. I don't mean it.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:20 AM
Also, we need a moderator, stat. Otherwise, holy end of secret identity, Batman.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:20 AM
151 is right -- the conventional relationship is pretty closely age-matched. While we talk about big age differences, they aren't the norm.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:21 AM
Okay, the Sagely thing isn't a secret identity, is it? Anyone googling the real name would find the switchover fairly easily.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:22 AM
Whoops. Am I not supposed to post identifying information about Smasher, like that his girlfriend is in Savannah?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:22 AM
.siht ekil nettirw eb dluohs stnemmoc lla, no won morF
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:27 AM
?siht ekiL
Posted by llib | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:29 AM
.seY
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:30 AM
!oohooW
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:30 AM
The Armsmasher genesis. Idenity: Not so secret!
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:31 AM
I was talking about the same thing as LB is in 156, not the Spelling Marshall or whatever he calls himself. Sure, the actual event of the changeover wouldn't be that hard too find (though many many hits for real name, so it wouldn't be that easy either). But someone stumbling upon the fake name for the first time wouldn't really realize who it was, would they? On the other hand, if they were searching for the alias, I suppose they're just as likely to find this thread as the original changeover thread.
.siht gnisrever ton ma I
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:32 AM
But someone stumbling upon the fake name for the first time wouldn't really realize who it was, would they?
Not if they went to Harvard, apparently.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:34 AM
.ylisae txet edoced dna edocne ylsuoirav esiwrehto dna ,31-tor ,esrever ot em swolla taht nigulp xoferiF a evah I
The Weblog started its downward spiral ever since it got rid of Anti-Anti Kamala.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:42 AM
When ogged returns, I think we'll experience a kind of collective seman desrever.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:42 AM
Oh come on, it's not that hard to figure out. It's distinctive, and his writing style is pretty consistent.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:42 AM
Then maybe we should each spend a day commenting as Saiselgy in order to throw off the stylistic consistency.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:48 AM
Or as any other pork products of our choosing.
Posted by Prosciutto | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:56 AM
It's important to realize that Tripp has not yet figured out that women enjoy sex.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 10:59 AM
God damn that jumped up city ham. Thinks it's so special.
Posted by Country Ham | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:02 AM
Mineshaft noms de plume aren't foolproof, but they allow someone to both write sex (ATM) and work on federally funded projects without any real worries.
152: Tripp, I'm 25, so by your model, should I even own a TiVo yet?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:03 AM
I do like prosciutto, but sometimes it feels like ham-flavored dental floss.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:04 AM
Why buy the pig when you can get the Sausagely for free?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:04 AM
Hey Weiner, Your mother's hygiene is so dreadful, even the hounds refuse to nuzzle her groin!
Oh yeah, w/d? Well, your mother's so fucking tall, that people always assumed she would be a great basketball player, and she did have some natural talent, so she was pretty good at the game at most levels of play, and even got a scholarship to a prestigious university that cares about such things to play basketball for them! Problem was, she figured she could just rely on her basketball abilities, so she neglected her studies—but when it came to basketball, she figured she could rely on her height and innate skill. She didn't train hard, and neglected to develop her talents. So she fell behind both academically and basketballically, meaning that, though she never lost her scholarship, she never really had a shot at supporting herself through her sport, and she had to take a distinctly sub-par job after graduation, because she had no family connections and her courses and grades were pretty bad. In fact, she now works two bad jobs (something I'm sure you know), and cries herself to sleep at night, thinking of what might have been.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:06 AM
a masterstroke!
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:06 AM
Fortunately ogged isn't here to tell me not to comment about sports.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:07 AM
I think we need a new post now.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:07 AM
There's been a mention of a pork products, yet I see no apostropher. Isn't that his equivalent of the bat signal?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:08 AM
176 to 174.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:08 AM
Not that 175 isn't also a masterstroke.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:09 AM
I'm sure that if Snees were not down at the pub he would be telling you where you can apply your masterstroke.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:11 AM
Dear Young Master Wolfson:
I'm rubber, you're glue.
Sincerely,
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:11 AM
Hey, it's South Dakota tourism (scroll down lots and lots).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:15 AM
Geez, Weiner, is your jones so bad you're reading that?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:17 AM
I always read TMQ! Always! And it's not at all connected to the fact that I'm supposed to be prepping on Tuesdays!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:17 AM
Doesn't GE strike you as a little, I dunno, off-kilter?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:20 AM
In what way? I mean, yeah, sure, though he's toned down the tiresome and often inappropriate moralizing since getting the boot from ESPN. (TMQ was, of course, best at Slate.)
(And I avoid his non-football stuff.)
(Or are you saying that he's wrong about blitzes?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:23 AM
I think he's more right than wrong about blitzes. Also, the shuttle. And I did like TMQ back when it was at Slate. It was shorter, and in a less-horrible format. But then, I liked Slate back then too, so.
But he's kind of like a friendly guy in a bar who, the longer you talk to him, the more you think there's something not quite right. And you begin to wonder, can I get out of here without him following me? If I do, am I sure he's not following me?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:26 AM
I see no apostropher
Oh, I got the signal. Unfortunately, I've got a full day of QCing clinical study reports. ("No, that should go to reference 23, not 22. And the denominator for this column should be total randomized patients, not total enrolled.")
About 100 comments too late, though, I'd like to add that when I reached my 30s, all kinds of women in their 40s and 50 became very sexually compelling. Also, when you're a a man in your early 30s flirting with a woman in her late 40s or early 50s, the response is generally way more positive than it is from the hot youngsters.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:28 AM
Is a randomized patient kind of like a lobotomized patient?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:33 AM
The problem with Tripp's 122 is that it assumes that being female and 18-25 is some sort of choice. You can't train to be male or female. Plus, I saw Dowd on TV; the photo isn't that doctored.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:40 AM
Doctors scramble a randomized patient's brains.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:41 AM
About 175 comments too late, getting back to that photo in the original post, and I know I'm really going to regret this, but I present for your reading pleasure . . .
Hello . . . Well, to tell the truth, I was just about to leave, but . . . OK, I'll have a scotch on the rocks . . . So, what's your name? . . . I'm Maureen . . . Oh, you did recognize me. Well, I guess you know all about me, so let's talk about you. . . Blogs? Yes, I read them from time to time. I try to read a variety of them across the political spectrum. . . . My favorite one? That's hard to say. Hmm . . . Well, there's one that I keep coming back to. A colleague of mine kept emailing me links to this one particular blog, and at first I coudn't figure out what the big deal about it was. . . . . Sure, I'll have another drink. . . . Oh, so one day I started reading the comments at this blog, and at first I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but for some reason I kept reading, and I started to get some of the in-jokes, and I have to admit I became kind of addicted to it . . . Oh, it's called "Unfogged" . . . You're kidding! Do you comment there? Because I don't recall seeing your . . . Of course, a pseudonym. So who are . . . Wait, don't tell me! Let me guess . . . I saw the pictures on that Frapper post, so I know you're not . . . You wouldn't by any chance be . . . You are! Oh, this is so unbelievable! . . . Bartender, one more please! . . . I really can't believe this! I mean, I always tried to picture what the various commenters looked like, and I would have these mental images of them, but I could never settle on one image for you . . . You, know, one time I . . . No, it's too embarassing . . . No, really . . . OK. I can't believe I'm telling you this . . . Sometimes I read Unfogged when I'm all alone really late at night, and I'll look for threads that are full of innuendoes, and sometimes I can't stop laughing, but sometimes I . . . well . . . touch myself . . . Don't laugh! . . . Anyway, one time I was reading a really long thread and I came to one of your comments, and as I was reading it I suddenly had the most incredible . . . Oh! Well, I don't know, I mean . . . I'm in room 214. I'll see you in five minutes . . .
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 11:46 AM
MAE: Wow. Um, I have to go to the printer.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 12:20 PM
That's hilarious.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 12:26 PM
Joe O,
You are using a TV appearance to validate a photo?
Wow.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:05 PM
What's wrong with that? There's a lot of airbrushing, photoshopping, etc. that you can do easily with a still photo but would be much harder and less likely in a TV appearance.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:11 PM
"much harder and less likely" != impossible.
And smart and important people who value their image will spend what it takes.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:18 PM
200!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:19 PM
Finally.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:23 PM
?dne ehT
Posted by bill | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:55 PM
.dne heT .won roF
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 1:59 PM
I wonder what Elias Lönnrot would think of all this.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 2:03 PM
"Man, being dead sucks."
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 2:23 PM
but Tripp, the guest doesn't pay the makeup artist. The way you judge hottness on television is by comparison to other people on television.
I know this thread is already over, but i have to point out that success and power often make an older man marriageable without making him sexually attractive. Exhibit A, Donald Trump. Unless the pre-nup requires that the trophy wife produce fake orgasms on a regular basis, such persons may their trophy marriages rather disappointing--one reason perhaps, why they have to keep on trading 'em in.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 2:46 PM
may find
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 2:47 PM
Paul Krugman is happily married to Robin Wells, people. And if our list of volunteers for Maureen Dowd to pick from is confined to Adam Kotsko--well, that's not sufficient.
Posted by Llahsram Hacam Hsoj | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 5:45 PM
From the unfogged archives: airbrushing.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 5:51 PM
@08: Wow, we have a poster here whose name is almost, but not quite, exactly like that of a prestigious blogger spelled backwards.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 6:34 PM
Did efaC MPT .rM misreverspell his name, or is 208 a mysterious Persian Unfogged reader?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 6:39 PM
210: Beat me to it. Funny, comment 08 is also by a Bizarro prestigious blogger. Mainstream bloggers are taking over this scene.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 1-05 6:42 PM
As long as we are living in a fantasy mirror world I'll add my name to the Maureen Dowd potential date list. Just to give her a choice, you understand. I'm ever the gentleman.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 2-05 7:51 AM
Would it be wrong to tell Fred Jones to stop sullying Ezra's blog and bring it over here? I think it would.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 6:44 PM
He'd fit right in.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:20 PM
Well, the problem can be seen in his second comment here. Fractured syntax good, needlessly hostile wingunttery bad.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:22 PM
I see now. Yes, it might be wrong.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:32 PM
OK, so Dowd is ineligible to be a MILF--what does that make her?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:32 PM
Maybe just an attractive woman?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:35 PM
Stop trolling, Ben.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:42 PM
An idealized version of me endowed with complete knowledge and perfect instrumental rationality would want himself, if he were in my shoes, to want to ask you why you don't come over here and make me, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.
Why don't you come over here and make me?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:45 PM
(I mean, it may be that there's something deeply wrong with what I'm saying, but I can't help think that in this particular context--Dowd, as I understand, is complaining that she never did get the chance to get married and, perhaps, have children--I didn't read the article, do you think I'm nuts?--there is something ironic about the fact that if she had, we would consider her a MILF. But now that I think of it, I am probably not only being sexist but mocking another's pain in a truly horrible way. When I should be grading papers and working on the talk I'm giving next week. Hm.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:45 PM
I have failed my idealized self by not italicizing correctly.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:46 PM
NYTOECILF, pronounced Nye-toe-silf (op-ed columist). I'm pretty sure she's the only one of the species. Well, unless, y'know, with the right bottle of wine, proper lighting, and the proper outfit, then maybe...
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 3-05 7:46 PM