No joke. I am perpetually exhausted by listening to well-paid children from well-off families defend their salaries by saying that they work very hard.
While it's true that some of them work hard, so what? Lots of people work hard. Farmers in third world countries work lots harder then they do, and they do it on, like, 3 yams a day. How many jobs does the woman cleaning their office have? Not including the job she has raising her kids?
Being born to the right family beats the hell outta hard work any day of the week. So get over yourself.
I think about this whenever I'm looking out at window-washers cleaning the side of the building next to me. I feel a bit panicky watching them lowering themselves on their rickety little contraption outside windows filled with people who don't notice them at all.
Um, I know I am being impermissibly earnest and humorless, but:
(1) I have heard this phrase lots of time in my moderately long life (and have used it myself), and I can't remember it ever being used in any way other than as a compliment meaning: "hey, you really worked hard and did a good job." I think you may be just reading the worst into a folksy usage with which you are unfamiliar.
(2) What is the basis for the implication that it is only white people who say this (assuming it is a bad or obnoxious thing to say)?
I think the student did mean it in a friendly way, cracker. What was shocking was a kid saying it to a grown man who wasn't working for him; it wasn't his place to pay the compliment, if that makes sense.
I think this is just ogged trying to cover his own latent racism, as previously demonstrated by that "Blackie" comment of which he is so proud. Apparently ogged saw a black person today.
Idealist beat me to my punch. I'm by no means a child of privilege, and when I've used the phrase (or seen it used) it's just been a good-natured way of acknowledging someone's hard work. It's not especially endearing, and thinking about it now it comes off as a little condescending, but I think you're being a little harsh. Sure as hell there's some honkies out there that need a smack, but this isn't the vehicle for it.
I agree with ogged that making that statement in that context requires such a sense of superiority that the comment deserves a smack or it's non-violent equivalent.
On a separate note, it's great how many posts seem to start with ogged posting things he thinks are unambiguously right and then most people disagreeing in comments.
Ogged is probably against thanking police officers for doing their jobs (often just standing there on the corner making sure nothing happens all day). I think Ogged is saying that if you don't own slaves, you can't tell someone they're doing a good job. Huzzah.
Wow. I'd have to have heard the tone, I guess, but I wouldn't have read that as condescending at all. That's actually something I might say myself, intending to convey sympathetic recognition of effort.
And total agreement to the second paragraph of 10.
I'd like to say that I agree with the original post, and ogged's sentiment regarding this kid, who is an asshole.
There's an assholeness implicit in the "today," as if, clearly that pay is not earned every day. Particularly when such a comment is in response to seeing someone laboring physically, just standing and looking at them sweating without lending a hand.
But maybe that's just 'cause I've never heard the expression before.
C'mon. Unless this kid's voice was just dripping rebel yell, I don't see the issue. "You're earning your pay today" is "code" for "That looks like hard work," with "today" indicating that "the work I'm watching you do at this moment." Maybe presumptuous but also maybe not—I think I have an idea of what a difficult UPS workload looks like, and this example definitely qualifies.
I'm surprised to see a cold-hearted, unpleasant New Yorker like LB express her sentiment, because my first reaction is that this is just the sort of overfriendly, sometimes-nervous pleasantry Southerners exchange day in and day out.
just standing and looking at them sweating without lending a hand.
I'm of the mind that doing that would be more condescending than what was actually said. There's a significant chance that the guy was trying to be sympathetic and good-natured, and pass the hard-working guy a lttle friendly interaction. Jumping the gun and deeming him an asshole seems sentitious and jugemental.
Why are so many of you on crack? Is it more fun to comment that way? The kid is pretending that he's in a position to pass judgement on the man's work. He's not in that position. Add to that the fact that the kid is white, and the worker black, and the proper response is "Where do you think we are, on your daddy's plantation? [gruesome braining]"
But if he was passing judgment in a complimentary way? Even a misguided complimentary way? And you're implying lots of racial undertones but just telling us that the kid was being rude for as-yet-unexplained reasons.
Just admit that you wanted to say "braining." We get it now.
And this is really very familiar ground. Frequently when I'm doing yardwork a passerby will say "Looks like you've got your work cut out for you!", and I'll want to say, "But it'll be easier once I've pulled my spade from out of your eye socket!", but only because I don't want to do any work or deal with cheerful people.
I didn't think about the use of "braining" until the apostropher mentioned it, but I am enjoying it now, yes.
The problem here is the word "earning." "Looks like you've got your work cut out for you" would have been totally unobjectionable. (The yardwork analogy won't work for all phrases, because you're not clearly in the employ of someone when you're doing yardwork.)
This situation just sounds like somewhat awkward small talk to me; ogged seems to be hearing "I, white child, am acknowledging that you, black man who lifts things, indeed deserve to be recognized as a lifter of things with appropriate pay." That's reading an awful lot into it unless the kid was really vocally stressing earning and today to indicate the guy normally didn't earn his pay.
I'm imagining that the only greater sin than this would be to say "Hot day, isn't it?" to which the only appropriate response would be to scream indignantly "Who are you to decide what the weather is for me? Are you trying dictate my preferences?"
I stand by my earlier sentiment also, because the compliment is misguided; I am sure the UPS guy does stuff that's much more complicated and difficult than pulling a dolly up some stairs. Those jobs are long hours, and they have a ton of responsibility beyond just physical labor.
I guess I'm unfriendly too, then, but I usually restrict my friendliness to things like "hi, how are you," rather than letting them know that little old me happens to think that wow, they're actually working hard!
Awkward small talk is frequently annoying, especially across class and racial lines. It's either drawing attention to the social barrier, or attempting to ignore it, both of which can be irritating. I always seem to get to know the mail room guys in whatever office I'm in (who are often black), and it's usually a safe bet that they aren't going to like 9 out of 10 of the white collar people, and no stupid one line greeting is going to change that. Unless you're really going to make an effort to charm them, it's best just to keep it polite and minimal.
the only greater sin than this would be to say "Hot day, isn't it?" to which the only appropriate response would be to scream indignantly "Who are you to decide what the weather is for me? Are you trying dictate my preferences?"
I don't think that's right. The appropriate response is, "What is that, some sort of reference Africa? Africa's hot, so I should be used to it, is that it, Whitey?" And then the braining.
It's at least possible that ogged hasn't known any African-Americans since he was seven (who would want to hang out with him after that), and so has constructed his sense of the psychological interior of African-Americans from repeated readings of Soul on Ice and The Complete Works of Franz Fannon.
I don't deny that it can be annoying; I've worked jobs that involved lifting in the past and have had customers comment on how the boss should pay me more (small girl lifting things) or how it's really hot to be having take out stuff to the dumpsters. And it is a bit annoying, but I think the annoyance is more a function of the job than having it commented upon.
I just don't see it as much more than an attempt to acknowledge sympathy which is reasonably polite and minimal. If the neighbor says 'Your old man putting you to work, eh?' when I'm doing yard work for my parents, I'm really not going to respond with a treatise on how children used to be treated as property. If he compliments me on my hair, I'm not going to explain patiently how my haircut wasn't designed to make an old member of the patriarchy happy and that his willingness to compliment me shows a lack of respect for my intelligence and abilities.
This situation is really not the sort of thing I'd reflect upon 15 years out of college as evidence of severe racism amongst my classmates, is all I'm saying.
As a southerner myself, I agree with LB; it's a show of sympathy.
But, I always took "today" to be intentionally ironic. That it implies that he normally doesn't work hard is what makes it friendly compliment. Almost as if to say, "Of course, in your line of work, you work hard everyday, but boy you sure are working hard right now."
Hey, you all do crack in the morning too. Since everyone's decided to ignore it, I'll repeat: the problematic word here is "earning." Thanks, carry on.
IIRC, crack is more prevalent in the African-American community, while cocaine is more prevalent in the white community. Given the makeup of the Unfogged community, I have to wonder why ogged would choose crack as the cause of bad decision-making rather than cocaine. Shouldn't the UPS guy in the story be tracking ogged down and braining him?
You were saying that we're all missing the point about what's offensive about the phrase, but it's really not just the phrase, it's the socioeconomic context plus the phrase. So discussing the larger socioeconomic context is not missing the point.
juses ogged, feeling a little judgmental today? even if you were right that it was racially motivated, the word that's a problem is today. If you read it right, today might imply that the UPS guy doesn't usually earn his pay, or work hard. The UPS guy understood that. But "earning your pay today" is just a figure of speech, so I don't understand why you're getting your panties in such a wad.
I didn't mean to say that the context is irrelevant. But all the analogies that have been brought up that don't include the word "earning" aren't on point. That word, in this context, was out of line.
But I think that the figure of speach "earning your pay today" does imply that the UPS guy doesn't usually earn his pay, and that the fact that that is not really what is meant by people who use it is precisely what is friendly about it.
I'm totally with Ogged on this one. The kid may have intended to express sympathy, and yeah, it's a cliche. Still, how rude, how blind to the difference in situations. Maybe not evidence of severe racism, but at the very least it's evidence of blithe carelessness about race and class. Which can be worse.
Maybe not evidence of severe racism, but at the very least it's evidence of blithe carelessness about race and class. Which can be worse.
I've been having a side conversation about this, but is 'blithe carelessness about race and class' really such a bad thing? I tend to think that the social/residential/vocational segregation between the races that still exists in this country is a terrible thing, and the level of guilty cautiousness that attaches to every cross-ethnic interaction (particularly when ogged is involved) only exacerbates that.
it's just so obvious--future-master-of-the-universe to guy stuck in working class. It's patronizing. Not only does kid not have to do physical labor, but seems to feel qualified to evaluate worker's level of effort, which, as an inexperienced young person, he is not. If the worker were white, he'd have a forelock he could tug while acknowledging young gentleman's kindly interest.
So on the whole, the Oggedian advice to priveleged white kids should really be to just avoid speaking with anyone of a lower class or different race, since you're more likely than not to accidentally say something insensitive.
Re:66 It really is shocking to me how rarely people say thank you. They just ignore their waiter or waitress.
When I was in college on the East Coast, I used to chat with the custodial staff, and they were well known. We used to tease our primary security guard about his sports car.
When I was living in California--which is supposed to be much less class-conscious and more egalitarian--the cleaning people were all Latinos and they did their work in the middle of the night and nobody even acknowledged their existence.
"Earning" is a cliché and can be substituted for what I said earlier. "Good for your old man! Making you earn your keep." "You really earn your pay on a (90 degree) day like today."
In both contexts it's pretty clearly implied as a joke, and to interpret them as "You're a lazy child and it's about time your dad got some use out of you." and "The rest of the time, your work isn't worth the minimum wage you're getting and I really think that the minimum wage is a crutch that promotes useless work" and to respond accordingly would be comedic gold, but very uncharitable.
(N.B. I'm not really bothered by the 'Smile!' thing either, but I'm bothered more by that than I was by this.)
I disagree that this changes just because the gender or the race of the person changes. Without more of the context, it's hard to be sure, but it doesn't sound like this kid was standing there giving imperial decrees that This Is A Heavy UPS load.
I'm so, so with ogged on this. Privileged college rich kid, laying about, shouldn't speak that way to a blue collar worker doing his job. It's embarrassing.
I get the child/adult thing ogged, I do, but am I the only one here old enough to remember real racism? I mean like actual bad stuff that could NOT be responded to?
For all we or the driver knows that kid comes from poor folk and works in a railroad yard during the summer driving spikes all day.
As LizardBreath said we need to know the tone of voice.
Besides, I was taught being a UPS driver is a good job to have - steady work, decent pay, good benifits.
One reason you have to be careful offering to help. I found out awhile ago that union stage hands don't like the musicians moving chairs or stands around too much.
79: (That's a default presumption, one only needs to point out when they're not doing that. Why are we writing in parentheses, is it like a stage-whisper?)
am I the only one here old enough to remember real racism?
I'm too young to have seen the worst of it, and then I grew up in Berkeley, CA. Then again, having grown up in Berkeley, CA after racism was supposedly all conquered n' stuff, and realizing only gradually how stubbornly segregated the People's Republic actually remained, I think it's important to keep an eye out for the subtly racist interactions that keep people in their places, as it were.
Maybe the kid did lay railway ties every summer to pay for his tuition--but I somehow doubt it.
(It's possible I'm being oversensitive, but then I've been watching Obsidian Wings explode over "the race card" these past few weeks. It's been like Helloooo? You can't just declare victory for race-blind enlightenment? In some of those threads, I'm been seeing "blithe carelessness" turn into a rather more pernicious form of denial. )
Helloooo? You can't just declare victory for race-blind enlightenment?
And I'm with you on that. I just think that the oggedian over-cautiousness about any possibly obnoxious interaction with members of other ethnic groups leads, in the end, to just not speaking at al to people you aren't absolutely comfortable with, which is an independently bad thing.
I don't know where ogged went to school. You'd be surprised at the number of top-schooled young 'privileged kids' who are there on scholarship, who are the first in their families to attend college, whose parents work in construction.
And I agree that you can't just say "Duh! Civil Rights Act!" and pretend everything is all hunky-dory; I just don't think it's terribly productive to have privileged kids afraid to talk to anyone black or Hispanic because it might be construed by some other privileged kid as insulting (but, talking to the white UPS guy? fine!)
Definitely agree with the general principle, Jackmoron.
I nearly fought with my Republican uncle last Thanksgiving, because he seemed to be endorsing torture. My sister, who was much better behaved, nearly lost it when he claimed that there was no racism in America.
Here's was the gist of the conversation:
Uncle: Who are the richest people in America?
BG: Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett
Uncle: The most highly paid entertainers, Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey
You make it sound like this is a habitual thing for me. Given that you're oh so very wrong about this situation, this one post isn't such great evidence.
It doesn't necessarily follow from the recommendations implicit in your post that you avoid black people, ogged. It just strongly suggests that you avoid poor black people.
Seriously, how do people read these things into the post? I noted that a stupid white kid said something stupid and insensitive to a black guy. How does it follow that I counsel "cautiousness," let alone that I avoid certain people. If y'all aren't kidding, these comments are ridiculous.
If one takes the interaction in your post to be fairly innocuous, yet you're neurotic about it, then one wonders how neurotic you are about all sorts of other innocuous-seeming black-white interactions. That's the joke.
Okay, I was being harsher than necessary. Still, you called the kid a 'honky'. Presuming that you don't actually hate white people ("You don't, do you?" she said, batting her big blue eyes), I figured that by that you meant that his comment was racist rather than merely insensitive, in the sense that it would have been equally obnoxious addressed to a white UPS guy.
Now I'd argue with you about whether it was even insensitive, but when you imply that it's racist, you throw all the guilty white liberals (a category in which I, depressingly, place myself) out there into a tizzy of self-examination: 'Oh my god, I've said things that were less than perfectly warm and supportive to black people! I'm a filthy racist and should die!'
The problem is that that's a crazy standard. While racism still exists and is a real problem, a college student saying something insensitive (if it was) isn't racism. When you imply that it is, you discourage guilty white liberals from ever talking to anyone black, because if they ever say anything exceptionable, they're suddenly racists.
ogged: Look at this stupid and insenstiive thing this kid said! To a black man! Let us hate upon this honky.
several commenters: It's not really that stupid or insensitive, look at our plethora of examples. but to be 'calling for hate on this honky' 15 years after the fact implies that ogged sure thinks it must be really stupid and insensitive.
ogged: but they don't use the word 'earned'.
commenters: Yes, they can even use the word 'earned'.
ogged: But kids shouldn't say things like that to working adults. Especially if the kids are in college and the adults are not.
commenters: ogged must be overly sensitive to these things. ogged would counsel someone not to say such things. ogged therefore counsels caution.
I'm pretty sure everyone else is joking about avoiding ethnic groups, though.
Serious, earnest, or o-earnest? There was nothing in your report of the incident that justified your response. It was entirely innocuous, and to see it as otherwise strikes me as overly sensitive to the point which you are mis-sensing things. People say things like this all the time, as throwaway lines of friendliness.
Fair enough, LB, though I don't really say in the post that what he does is racist; I was more thinking that such a white frat-boy type (you all know what I mean) is most likely to say something so stupidly insensitive (if in fact it is). I might be wrong about that, but I'll confess that it's a prejudice I have.
Timbot, serious and earnest. I mean it. Clearly, it's not just me. Like I say, there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate.
I'm just imagining if Ogged gets invited to another party where me meets a perfectly nice black girl from a poor family who's a waitress but rather well self-educated and he thinks she's interesting to talk to and gets her email and thinks a friendship would be pleasant but what if she thinks he's flirting or maybe even if it works they go out for coffee somewhere and all the black guys think he's poaching and the white guys just think he's indulging a weird fetish or something.
100 posts too late, would it be wrong to say that whether these things are offensive or not depends hugely on nuances of intonation and body language, and thus it is the acme of pointlessness to have an argument about it with the bloke who was actually there and heard what the kid said?
there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate
Which is pretty much the reason that people PJ O'Roarke are able to sell books making fun of libs. This sort of sensitivity may make sense in college, and perhaps even in graduate school, but I find it hard to believe that it survives the any confrontation with the real world. Maybe there was a tone or context to it that mattered but otherwise...well, see my prior comment asking whether people were joking.
Yeah, dsquared, I've been thinking about that, while I've been trying to imagine how people are reading this as innocuous. There were a bunch of people making way for the UPS guy, and stupid white boy, with his hands on his hips, in a booming voice, said, "You're earning your pay today." UPS guy said, almost under his breath, "I earn my pay every day."
I didn't include the details because I didn't quite trust myself, given what an effin jackass I thought the kid was, to tell it straight, so I just reported the indubitable facts.
That said, the set of poses and voices that makes this comment innocuous is far smaller than the set that makes it insensitive.
there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate.
The weird part seems to be the emphasis on totally inappropriate. Mildly inappropriate I can almost see; it's the "totally" the puzzles me. The mere fact that you're not alone only shows what we already knew: liberals are neurotic.
The thing is, even if he was a jackass (and you were there, so you know) remembering the incident fifteen years later as even more shocking every time you think of it blows it up into a social issue. If you say he was a jackass, cool, but for the post to be more than "ogged saw a jackass in college once", people are going to be discussing the implied larger social implications.
That said, the set of poses and voices that makes this comment innocuous is far smaller than the set that makes it insensitive.
On your re-telling (lots of people, not addressed directly to him as part of a conversation, etc.), I can see it as offensive. But you've got to be kidding me with the above. Imagine the guy notes a UPS guy moving a heavy package towards a door, helpfully runs over and holds it open, and says the bit. You really find that offensive?
That too would depend on the tone. ogged said that it was under his breath. If it had been a sassy, "I earn my pay every day, then things would be different."
people are going to be discussing the implied larger social implications
Which I think is fine and good. But to see the advice implied as "neurotic" or indicative of a pronounced cautiousness assumes what's become the issue, namely, whether the guy was being a jackass.
Imagine the guy notes a UPS guy moving a heavy package towards a door, helpfully runs over and holds it open, and says the bit. You really find that offensive?
I think it's a poor thing for a college student to say to an adult in any situation, but obviously I wouldn't hate the guy so much if he had run over to hold the door.
dsquared, a lot of people (me, Kriston, LB) brought that up: 'unless there's some information we don't know, the comment itself is pretty innocuous, though a lot could depend on tone'.... ogged never said anything like 'Oh, the guy was standing, arms akimbo, announcing it like he was a white demi-god'...
I tended to assume it was said with a friendly nod or headshake in passing, with the tones indicating sympathy, because larger or smaller set, that's how it's most often been heard around here. Not having had that perception corrected at all in 100 posts...
What are the possible negative readings of this comment? There's the racist, in which the kid implies that the black guy is lazy, but I don't think anyone is advocating this reading. The other is that the kid spoke before considering that the UPS guys job was sweaty every day. This reading, I think, is what Ogged and others are advocating. Ok. Mildly offensive. Not brain-the-kid-and-go-after-his-parents offensive.
I think it's a poor thing for a college student to say to an adult in any situation
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work? Or because it implies that adult workers might not work hard every single day, which of course is true?
Comment 5 didn't really help clarity much either. Was he friendly, or standing in the corridor annoyed that the slow UPS guy was getting in his way and being a somewhat typical college kid and making sure the whole corridor heard him?
Eh -- we're not talking about racism, ogged saw a jackass in college once, and "Man, you're earning your salary today!" falls into the "Smile when you say that, pardner" category. Is there anything else much to discuss?
I just looked at #5, and it strikes me that I would be much more offended if this was said to me by my boss - what's the implication then, that I don't normally earn my pay?
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work? Or because it implies that adult workers might not work hard every single day
Michael, why are you torturing me? Neither. Because we almost never have enough information about a stranger to say whether he's "earned" something or not. It's particularly galling for a kid to say it, because he likely has even less of a clue than the rest of us.
Ogged, you could have avoided a lot of confusion had you mentioned that the kid closed his comment by whipping out his penis and hollering "phasers on kill, baby!"
Except as Armsmasher pointed out, it's not a judgment on whether the pay is earned, but that the work looks particularly hard. It's a clichéd phrase, and one I'm certainly never using again.
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work?
Because college kids are in the position of being able to admire manual labor from afar and to look forward to admire this edifying aesthetic spectacle from afar for the rest of their lives. The guy Ogged remembers felt sufficiently comfortable in his perch to evaluate and comment on that spectacle of work.
The anecdote would stick out in my memory, too, because the UPS dude came up with the perfect rejoinder: dignified but pointed enough for any ears sensitive enough to hear.
Look, maybe I'm also neurotic and oversensitive, but when I hang out outside my department's building, which has stairs, I see delivery guys struggle with heavy loads up the stairs all the time. This is a situation I see every damn week.
Do you run to help, thereby insulting their ability to do their jobs? Do you stand there and say "Wow, when you take home your pitiful salary tonight, you'll be saying 'well deserved' to yourself!"? Do you hold the door? Do you ignore them, either because workers should be invisible or because speaking to workers is too-too uncomfortable?
Usually, I run to hold the door and ask the delivery guy if there's some sort of event on. Sometimes, if the guy is struggling, I'll grab the back-end of the load. If I'm actually doing something, like talking to friends or grading papers, I'll ignore the guy. Helping the guy up the stairs or in the door is maybe presumptive, and certainly shouldn't count as any special virtue--but, to my way of seeing, it would be unthinkably insulting to stand still and comment.
How about seeing Ogged's undergrad's comment as rude with a slight undercurrent of racism?
JM (not a 'he', I think; I can approximate the meaning of "Jackmormon" if you don't feel like it)'s 147 captures why I didn't post until now--I think these are damn complicated issues. It reminds me of the end of David Lodge's Nice Work ("fifth excerpt" here), where the lefty English prof has been imagining a Utopian union of academe and the working class, and sees the students outside quietly moving out of the gardeners' way: "There is no overt arrogance on the students' part, or evident resentment on the young gardener's, just a kind of mutual, instinctive avoidance of contact." (But is that what the gardener thinks?) It's not good for classes to move in separate spheres, but it can be hard to talk to strangers without seeming like a jerk--especially when race and class enter into it.
I hope I've managed not to say anything. I'm trying not to say anything.
149 is crazy, though. Don't jackmormons still like sweet stuff?
I've lurked here for awhile. While the virtual fruit basket mollifies the imagination, I never thought that I could insinuate myself into the trusted commentarient here, as it were, without going through some hazing. Disputes over whether I'm a moron or a mormon, a male or a female, pass over me as the river o'er the stones.
If you want hazing, there are other links that could be supplied for fruit basket. If I could find them.
Apropos of nothing, I note the definitive proof that Wolfson and I are right about "which"--bringing Labs' thing for mendacious women to shocking heights.
Good lord. Should I post a jpeg of me "titttiiiieeees" to prove my lurker status or the pervasive rumor that I may be female? Too bad: I don't own a digital camera.
And hey, I've seen people correct themselves on spelling before the overeducated and underemployed got to it--more's the pity that I began to make myself known with a couple of intensified errors, really.
Arrgh, and back to the orginal subject of this thread, Ogged and I are right and the rest of you lack imagination.
Yeah, Jackmormon, until I read 177 I was considering a gentle gibe at the two Matts (the two in this thread, lord knows how many there are) for flirting with a new commenter as soon as they show up and their gender is mentioned, but apparently you weren't reading it that way. 179 makes me still think they were.
I correct my own spelling and grammar all the time. Which is similar to bragging about paying back all of the people one has robbed.
Well, the backstory to 179 is that Jackm. said in a post on her blog that she was too intimidated to post here and I left a comment encouraging her to do so. So I was particularly self-conscious about the possibility that I'd been a jerk to her.
Once my gender has come up, I don't care which way it's read. I've deliberately tried to make it not an issue, but obviously, that hasn't really worked.
No, seriously my only fears about commenting here are being revealed as being fears of being either nonsensical, non-grammatical, or un-funny. Among those three, the latter is the most paralyzing.
And of course you don't have to reveal your gender. And of course I am female, with gigantic titties, a small waist, and advanced degrees. And a penchant for Persians. I swear.
Now, in this one instance, I'm going to aloow that ogged was there and I wasn't, and should be trusted to identify that the kid was being a jackass, but:
I surely can't be the only son of middle class parents that went to college who also had extensive experience busting serious hump for little pay. I have been a farmhand, I have done road construction, I have been a fry cook, I have unloaded trucks, I have worked retail for 12-hour shifts. I've always had a safet net, and I've always known that if I didn't fuck up too badly that better, easier work was ahead, but I don't think I'm crazy saying that I know what it's like to do hard, physical labor. And, on occasion, even though I don't look like it now, I do like to communicate to folks, especcially those who are doing something for me, that I know how hard what they're doing is, and that I appreciate what they're doing. Is that so wrong?
Jeez, we don't even call 200 anymore. (JM, not picking a gender because I couldn't think of a witty way to bring this in; but as a lurker, you probably knew about it anyway.)
For the sake of argument, let's assume that I am a ravishingly attractive, well-endowed female nerd currently dating a Persian-American who is not Ogged.
Sure. I'm just saying that there are situations where frat-looking college boys could say what this kid said and it would be OK, or even nice. So, given that you didn't give us the context necessary to share the conclusion you provided for us, you suck.
I semi-lurk at Obsidian Wings (I've commented, but it's a rarity), and I think, though I'm not certain and I'm not googling for it, that Jackmormon has mentioned Jackmormon's gender there.
Ditto in all respects to 207, with the slight difference that I'm not sure why I think I know JM's gender (that is, I have no particular memory of a post referencing it), just that I have a strong belief in that regard. And that I can think of few people from OW that I'd be happier to see here.
I'm pretty much limited to getting into the occasional argument with SH or Slart. They're both in that maddening category of rightwingers (or however they'd self-identify) who are close enough to what I recognize as reality that it feels as if you could convince them of something, although I can't say as I ever have.
No joke. I am perpetually exhausted by listening to well-paid children from well-off families defend their salaries by saying that they work very hard.
While it's true that some of them work hard, so what? Lots of people work hard. Farmers in third world countries work lots harder then they do, and they do it on, like, 3 yams a day. How many jobs does the woman cleaning their office have? Not including the job she has raising her kids?
Being born to the right family beats the hell outta hard work any day of the week. So get over yourself.
Posted by theorajones | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:00 PM
I think about this whenever I'm looking out at window-washers cleaning the side of the building next to me. I feel a bit panicky watching them lowering themselves on their rickety little contraption outside windows filled with people who don't notice them at all.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:14 PM
Um, I know I am being impermissibly earnest and humorless, but:
(1) I have heard this phrase lots of time in my moderately long life (and have used it myself), and I can't remember it ever being used in any way other than as a compliment meaning: "hey, you really worked hard and did a good job." I think you may be just reading the worst into a folksy usage with which you are unfamiliar.
(2) What is the basis for the implication that it is only white people who say this (assuming it is a bad or obnoxious thing to say)?
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:48 PM
Shut up, cracker.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:50 PM
I think the student did mean it in a friendly way, cracker. What was shocking was a kid saying it to a grown man who wasn't working for him; it wasn't his place to pay the compliment, if that makes sense.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:56 PM
I'd like to take a brief tangent and express how much I love the use of "brain" as a verb.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:59 PM
assuming it is a bad or obnoxious thing to say
I think this is just ogged trying to cover his own latent racism, as previously demonstrated by that "Blackie" comment of which he is so proud. Apparently ogged saw a black person today.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:59 PM
Idealist beat me to my punch. I'm by no means a child of privilege, and when I've used the phrase (or seen it used) it's just been a good-natured way of acknowledging someone's hard work. It's not especially endearing, and thinking about it now it comes off as a little condescending, but I think you're being a little harsh. Sure as hell there's some honkies out there that need a smack, but this isn't the vehicle for it.
Posted by Tarrou | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 5:59 PM
Ogged, I'm with you on the context. The first post still seems to be rolling some unjustified implications into this expression.
Posted by Tarrou | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 6:01 PM
I agree with ogged that making that statement in that context requires such a sense of superiority that the comment deserves a smack or it's non-violent equivalent.
On a separate note, it's great how many posts seem to start with ogged posting things he thinks are unambiguously right and then most people disagreeing in comments.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 6:05 PM
Apparently ogged saw a black person today.
Ogged is Teh Crackah!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 6:05 PM
or it's non-violent equivalent.
Man, you people are really starting to disappoint me.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 6:43 PM
Fuck to oboe.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 7:36 PM
Ogged is probably against thanking police officers for doing their jobs (often just standing there on the corner making sure nothing happens all day). I think Ogged is saying that if you don't own slaves, you can't tell someone they're doing a good job. Huzzah.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 8:03 PM
Now, if he said "Chief" at the end, the UPS guy should have totally pwned him. Maybe give him those awful cardboard "paper" cuts.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 8:10 PM
Wow. I'd have to have heard the tone, I guess, but I wouldn't have read that as condescending at all. That's actually something I might say myself, intending to convey sympathetic recognition of effort.
And total agreement to the second paragraph of 10.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 8:23 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 9:51 PM
Don't I know it, Labs. Thank you.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 9:56 PM
I have to agree that I don't see this as condescending at all. It just seems like a recognition that someone is working hard.
Posted by Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 10:10 PM
I'd like to say that I agree with the original post, and ogged's sentiment regarding this kid, who is an asshole.
There's an assholeness implicit in the "today," as if, clearly that pay is not earned every day. Particularly when such a comment is in response to seeing someone laboring physically, just standing and looking at them sweating without lending a hand.
But maybe that's just 'cause I've never heard the expression before.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 10:20 PM
silvana also owns slaves!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 10:32 PM
Ogged, your commenters suck.
Hey, we're earning our pay here every day.
Bitch.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 10:55 PM
I'm ready to brain the kid too, and I don't even post here! um, or.
Posted by alameida | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 11:19 PM
C'mon. Unless this kid's voice was just dripping rebel yell, I don't see the issue. "You're earning your pay today" is "code" for "That looks like hard work," with "today" indicating that "the work I'm watching you do at this moment." Maybe presumptuous but also maybe not—I think I have an idea of what a difficult UPS workload looks like, and this example definitely qualifies.
I'm surprised to see a cold-hearted, unpleasant New Yorker like LB express her sentiment, because my first reaction is that this is just the sort of overfriendly, sometimes-nervous pleasantry Southerners exchange day in and day out.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 11:55 PM
just standing and looking at them sweating without lending a hand.
I'm of the mind that doing that would be more condescending than what was actually said. There's a significant chance that the guy was trying to be sympathetic and good-natured, and pass the hard-working guy a lttle friendly interaction. Jumping the gun and deeming him an asshole seems sentitious and jugemental.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 5-05 11:59 PM
Does 24 mean I'm not the only one thinking there might be a north-south division here?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:00 AM
Why are so many of you on crack? Is it more fun to comment that way? The kid is pretending that he's in a position to pass judgement on the man's work. He's not in that position. Add to that the fact that the kid is white, and the worker black, and the proper response is "Where do you think we are, on your daddy's plantation? [gruesome braining]"
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:09 AM
But if he was passing judgment in a complimentary way? Even a misguided complimentary way? And you're implying lots of racial undertones but just telling us that the kid was being rude for as-yet-unexplained reasons.
Just admit that you wanted to say "braining." We get it now.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:14 AM
And this is really very familiar ground. Frequently when I'm doing yardwork a passerby will say "Looks like you've got your work cut out for you!", and I'll want to say, "But it'll be easier once I've pulled my spade from out of your eye socket!", but only because I don't want to do any work or deal with cheerful people.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:17 AM
I didn't think about the use of "braining" until the apostropher mentioned it, but I am enjoying it now, yes.
The problem here is the word "earning." "Looks like you've got your work cut out for you" would have been totally unobjectionable. (The yardwork analogy won't work for all phrases, because you're not clearly in the employ of someone when you're doing yardwork.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:23 AM
Ogged, you obviously an unfriendly person. If you did more crack, you'd be a little more laid back.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:24 AM
The yardwork analogy won't work for all phrases, because you're not clearly in the employ of someone when you're doing yardwork.
Tell that one to my wife!
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:31 AM
Let's have your girlfriend tell her.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:32 AM
This situation just sounds like somewhat awkward small talk to me; ogged seems to be hearing "I, white child, am acknowledging that you, black man who lifts things, indeed deserve to be recognized as a lifter of things with appropriate pay." That's reading an awful lot into it unless the kid was really vocally stressing earning and today to indicate the guy normally didn't earn his pay.
I'm imagining that the only greater sin than this would be to say "Hot day, isn't it?" to which the only appropriate response would be to scream indignantly "Who are you to decide what the weather is for me? Are you trying dictate my preferences?"
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:43 AM
I stand by my earlier sentiment also, because the compliment is misguided; I am sure the UPS guy does stuff that's much more complicated and difficult than pulling a dolly up some stairs. Those jobs are long hours, and they have a ton of responsibility beyond just physical labor.
I guess I'm unfriendly too, then, but I usually restrict my friendliness to things like "hi, how are you," rather than letting them know that little old me happens to think that wow, they're actually working hard!
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:06 AM
Awkward small talk is frequently annoying, especially across class and racial lines. It's either drawing attention to the social barrier, or attempting to ignore it, both of which can be irritating. I always seem to get to know the mail room guys in whatever office I'm in (who are often black), and it's usually a safe bet that they aren't going to like 9 out of 10 of the white collar people, and no stupid one line greeting is going to change that. Unless you're really going to make an effort to charm them, it's best just to keep it polite and minimal.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:21 AM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:41 AM
the only greater sin than this would be to say "Hot day, isn't it?" to which the only appropriate response would be to scream indignantly "Who are you to decide what the weather is for me? Are you trying dictate my preferences?"
I don't think that's right. The appropriate response is, "What is that, some sort of reference Africa? Africa's hot, so I should be used to it, is that it, Whitey?" And then the braining.
It's at least possible that ogged hasn't known any African-Americans since he was seven (who would want to hang out with him after that), and so has constructed his sense of the psychological interior of African-Americans from repeated readings of Soul on Ice and The Complete Works of Franz Fannon.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:49 AM
I don't deny that it can be annoying; I've worked jobs that involved lifting in the past and have had customers comment on how the boss should pay me more (small girl lifting things) or how it's really hot to be having take out stuff to the dumpsters. And it is a bit annoying, but I think the annoyance is more a function of the job than having it commented upon.
I just don't see it as much more than an attempt to acknowledge sympathy which is reasonably polite and minimal. If the neighbor says 'Your old man putting you to work, eh?' when I'm doing yard work for my parents, I'm really not going to respond with a treatise on how children used to be treated as property. If he compliments me on my hair, I'm not going to explain patiently how my haircut wasn't designed to make an old member of the patriarchy happy and that his willingness to compliment me shows a lack of respect for my intelligence and abilities.
This situation is really not the sort of thing I'd reflect upon 15 years out of college as evidence of severe racism amongst my classmates, is all I'm saying.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:52 AM
As a southerner myself, I agree with LB; it's a show of sympathy.
But, I always took "today" to be intentionally ironic. That it implies that he normally doesn't work hard is what makes it friendly compliment. Almost as if to say, "Of course, in your line of work, you work hard everyday, but boy you sure are working hard right now."
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:13 AM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:15 AM
Did I fuck up? I don't think I repeated anyone.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:19 AM
What Cala said.
Posted by Josh | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:24 AM
Likewise.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:26 AM
Hey, you all do crack in the morning too. Since everyone's decided to ignore it, I'll repeat: the problematic word here is "earning." Thanks, carry on.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:49 AM
Going back to comment 3, you know this is a cliche, right? That the student wasn't coming up with the wording on his own?
Is the cliche offensive to you regardless of the racial context, or would it have been okay to a white UPS guy?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:57 AM
Any kid saying it to an adult would be bad; the kid being white and the adult black just makes it worse.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:02 AM
"Earning" is the problem in a vacuum? With no standing race/class issues that you yourself bring up in the post?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:02 AM
Make that: that you yourself bring up in 47. (Didn't preview before I wrote that.) Or, that is, why are we on crack?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:06 AM
IIRC, crack is more prevalent in the African-American community, while cocaine is more prevalent in the white community. Given the makeup of the Unfogged community, I have to wonder why ogged would choose crack as the cause of bad decision-making rather than cocaine. Shouldn't the UPS guy in the story be tracking ogged down and braining him?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:10 AM
I'm not sure what you're asking, ac.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:10 AM
You were saying that we're all missing the point about what's offensive about the phrase, but it's really not just the phrase, it's the socioeconomic context plus the phrase. So discussing the larger socioeconomic context is not missing the point.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:17 AM
You don't get it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:18 AM
juses ogged, feeling a little judgmental today? even if you were right that it was racially motivated, the word that's a problem is today. If you read it right, today might imply that the UPS guy doesn't usually earn his pay, or work hard. The UPS guy understood that. But "earning your pay today" is just a figure of speech, so I don't understand why you're getting your panties in such a wad.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:19 AM
Kidding ac, kidding.
I didn't mean to say that the context is irrelevant. But all the analogies that have been brought up that don't include the word "earning" aren't on point. That word, in this context, was out of line.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:20 AM
Let's call this an "agree to disagree" thread and move on.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:21 AM
Kid: You're really working hard today.
UPSG: Kid, I work hard every day.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:22 AM
But I think that the figure of speach "earning your pay today" does imply that the UPS guy doesn't usually earn his pay, and that the fact that that is not really what is meant by people who use it is precisely what is friendly about it.
Posted by Sam K | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:25 AM
I'm totally with Ogged on this one. The kid may have intended to express sympathy, and yeah, it's a cliche. Still, how rude, how blind to the difference in situations. Maybe not evidence of severe racism, but at the very least it's evidence of blithe carelessness about race and class. Which can be worse.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:26 AM
I just want to understand you, Ogged. Know your mind.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:29 AM
Maybe not evidence of severe racism, but at the very least it's evidence of blithe carelessness about race and class. Which can be worse.
I've been having a side conversation about this, but is 'blithe carelessness about race and class' really such a bad thing? I tend to think that the social/residential/vocational segregation between the races that still exists in this country is a terrible thing, and the level of guilty cautiousness that attaches to every cross-ethnic interaction (particularly when ogged is involved) only exacerbates that.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:49 AM
(particularly when ogged is involved)
Interesting choice if words, LB.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:51 AM
Just giving him a hard time about the initial post.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:52 AM
61, that's a good question for a Kausophile like Ogged. Didn't Kaus coin the term Guilty Southern White Boy syndrome?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:56 AM
Yeah, I know, and I was giving you a bit of one too.
And I do think that they were real words. There was no conditional implied by "if;" that should have been "of."
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:56 AM
Servants shouldn't be thanked - recognition is bad for discipline.
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:14 AM
it's just so obvious--future-master-of-the-universe to guy stuck in working class. It's patronizing. Not only does kid not have to do physical labor, but seems to feel qualified to evaluate worker's level of effort, which, as an inexperienced young person, he is not. If the worker were white, he'd have a forelock he could tug while acknowledging young gentleman's kindly interest.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:15 AM
So on the whole, the Oggedian advice to priveleged white kids should really be to just avoid speaking with anyone of a lower class or different race, since you're more likely than not to accidentally say something insensitive.
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:20 AM
...like "blackie."
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:21 AM
Toads--
Re:66 It really is shocking to me how rarely people say thank you. They just ignore their waiter or waitress.
When I was in college on the East Coast, I used to chat with the custodial staff, and they were well known. We used to tease our primary security guard about his sports car.
When I was living in California--which is supposed to be much less class-conscious and more egalitarian--the cleaning people were all Latinos and they did their work in the middle of the night and nobody even acknowledged their existence.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:26 AM
"Earning" is a cliché and can be substituted for what I said earlier. "Good for your old man! Making you earn your keep." "You really earn your pay on a (90 degree) day like today."
In both contexts it's pretty clearly implied as a joke, and to interpret them as "You're a lazy child and it's about time your dad got some use out of you." and "The rest of the time, your work isn't worth the minimum wage you're getting and I really think that the minimum wage is a crutch that promotes useless work" and to respond accordingly would be comedic gold, but very uncharitable.
(N.B. I'm not really bothered by the 'Smile!' thing either, but I'm bothered more by that than I was by this.)
I disagree that this changes just because the gender or the race of the person changes. Without more of the context, it's hard to be sure, but it doesn't sound like this kid was standing there giving imperial decrees that This Is A Heavy UPS load.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:27 AM
I'm so, so with ogged on this. Privileged college rich kid, laying about, shouldn't speak that way to a blue collar worker doing his job. It's embarrassing.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:29 AM
I have been assuming that everyone agreeing with ogged, including ogged, has merely been twiting him. Is this wrong?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:32 AM
Also, it should be noted that my preferred spelling for the post title, "Oh no you di'in't", slightly edges out the above.
With mine, see, you get a more phonetic reading of the word, although from a contraction standpoint, ogged's makes a little more sense.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:35 AM
Why do you long for aristocracy, Timmeh?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:39 AM
Somehow, the driver didn't take the hand-trolley, brain the kid, and set off on a mission to brain his parents.
Because that's usually what black savages do when they've been slighted.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 11:32 AM
Yikesaroni!
I get the child/adult thing ogged, I do, but am I the only one here old enough to remember real racism? I mean like actual bad stuff that could NOT be responded to?
For all we or the driver knows that kid comes from poor folk and works in a railroad yard during the summer driving spikes all day.
As LizardBreath said we need to know the tone of voice.
Besides, I was taught being a UPS driver is a good job to have - steady work, decent pay, good benifits.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 12:57 PM
Strong union.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:01 PM
(I just want to make it clear I was fucking with Ogged in 76.)
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:15 PM
Strong union.
One reason you have to be careful offering to help. I found out awhile ago that union stage hands don't like the musicians moving chairs or stands around too much.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:22 PM
79: (That's a default presumption, one only needs to point out when they're not doing that. Why are we writing in parentheses, is it like a stage-whisper?)
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:23 PM
am I the only one here old enough to remember real racism?
I'm too young to have seen the worst of it, and then I grew up in Berkeley, CA. Then again, having grown up in Berkeley, CA after racism was supposedly all conquered n' stuff, and realizing only gradually how stubbornly segregated the People's Republic actually remained, I think it's important to keep an eye out for the subtly racist interactions that keep people in their places, as it were.
Maybe the kid did lay railway ties every summer to pay for his tuition--but I somehow doubt it.
(It's possible I'm being oversensitive, but then I've been watching Obsidian Wings explode over "the race card" these past few weeks. It's been like Helloooo? You can't just declare victory for race-blind enlightenment? In some of those threads, I'm been seeing "blithe carelessness" turn into a rather more pernicious form of denial. )
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:24 PM
Helloooo? You can't just declare victory for race-blind enlightenment?
And I'm with you on that. I just think that the oggedian over-cautiousness about any possibly obnoxious interaction with members of other ethnic groups leads, in the end, to just not speaking at al to people you aren't absolutely comfortable with, which is an independently bad thing.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:30 PM
l
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:31 PM
I don't know where ogged went to school. You'd be surprised at the number of top-schooled young 'privileged kids' who are there on scholarship, who are the first in their families to attend college, whose parents work in construction.
And I agree that you can't just say "Duh! Civil Rights Act!" and pretend everything is all hunky-dory; I just don't think it's terribly productive to have privileged kids afraid to talk to anyone black or Hispanic because it might be construed by some other privileged kid as insulting (but, talking to the white UPS guy? fine!)
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:33 PM
am I the only one here old enough to remember real racism?
No.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:34 PM
Definitely agree with the general principle, Jackmoron.
I nearly fought with my Republican uncle last Thanksgiving, because he seemed to be endorsing torture. My sister, who was much better behaved, nearly lost it when he claimed that there was no racism in America.
Here's was the gist of the conversation:
Uncle: Who are the richest people in America?
BG: Bill Gates, and Warren Buffett
Uncle: The most highly paid entertainers, Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey
(me, seething inside, like that proves anything)
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:35 PM
oggedian over-cautiousness about any possibly obnoxious interaction with members of other ethnic groups
Where is this coming from?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 1:53 PM
The post. See my 61 for an earlier comment on it.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 3:52 PM
You make it sound like this is a habitual thing for me. Given that you're oh so very wrong about this situation, this one post isn't such great evidence.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 3:54 PM
It doesn't necessarily follow from the recommendations implicit in your post that you avoid black people, ogged. It just strongly suggests that you avoid poor black people.
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:05 PM
Seriously, how do people read these things into the post? I noted that a stupid white kid said something stupid and insensitive to a black guy. How does it follow that I counsel "cautiousness," let alone that I avoid certain people. If y'all aren't kidding, these comments are ridiculous.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:09 PM
We're joking (or I am), Shi'a. The only question relating to this post worth answering is whether you were serious about it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:23 PM
I was completely serious, actually. I thought other people were too, on both sides.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:25 PM
If one takes the interaction in your post to be fairly innocuous, yet you're neurotic about it, then one wonders how neurotic you are about all sorts of other innocuous-seeming black-white interactions. That's the joke.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:27 PM
Okay, I was being harsher than necessary. Still, you called the kid a 'honky'. Presuming that you don't actually hate white people ("You don't, do you?" she said, batting her big blue eyes), I figured that by that you meant that his comment was racist rather than merely insensitive, in the sense that it would have been equally obnoxious addressed to a white UPS guy.
Now I'd argue with you about whether it was even insensitive, but when you imply that it's racist, you throw all the guilty white liberals (a category in which I, depressingly, place myself) out there into a tizzy of self-examination: 'Oh my god, I've said things that were less than perfectly warm and supportive to black people! I'm a filthy racist and should die!'
The problem is that that's a crazy standard. While racism still exists and is a real problem, a college student saying something insensitive (if it was) isn't racism. When you imply that it is, you discourage guilty white liberals from ever talking to anyone black, because if they ever say anything exceptionable, they're suddenly racists.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:29 PM
I get that. But since opinion seems pretty evenly divided on whether the interaction was objectionable, it's not very funny.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:29 PM
It's not that hard an inference to cautiousness:
ogged: Look at this stupid and insenstiive thing this kid said! To a black man! Let us hate upon this honky.
several commenters: It's not really that stupid or insensitive, look at our plethora of examples. but to be 'calling for hate on this honky' 15 years after the fact implies that ogged sure thinks it must be really stupid and insensitive.
ogged: but they don't use the word 'earned'.
commenters: Yes, they can even use the word 'earned'.
ogged: But kids shouldn't say things like that to working adults. Especially if the kids are in college and the adults are not.
commenters: ogged must be overly sensitive to these things. ogged would counsel someone not to say such things. ogged therefore counsels caution.
I'm pretty sure everyone else is joking about avoiding ethnic groups, though.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:29 PM
Serious, earnest, or o-earnest? There was nothing in your report of the incident that justified your response. It was entirely innocuous, and to see it as otherwise strikes me as overly sensitive to the point which you are mis-sensing things. People say things like this all the time, as throwaway lines of friendliness.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:31 PM
It was entirely innocuous, and to see it as otherwise strikes me as overly sensitive to the point which you are mis-sensing things.
This is at the heart of the joke, where the grain of truth may lie.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:33 PM
Fair enough, LB, though I don't really say in the post that what he does is racist; I was more thinking that such a white frat-boy type (you all know what I mean) is most likely to say something so stupidly insensitive (if in fact it is). I might be wrong about that, but I'll confess that it's a prejudice I have.
Timbot, serious and earnest. I mean it. Clearly, it's not just me. Like I say, there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:35 PM
Of course, us mentioning this might just make you more neurotic. Ei yi yi.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:35 PM
I'm just imagining if Ogged gets invited to another party where me meets a perfectly nice black girl from a poor family who's a waitress but rather well self-educated and he thinks she's interesting to talk to and gets her email and thinks a friendship would be pleasant but what if she thinks he's flirting or maybe even if it works they go out for coffee somewhere and all the black guys think he's poaching and the white guys just think he's indulging a weird fetish or something.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:39 PM
I think it depends a lot on the context. My father used to say things to me like, "you really earned your keep today."
If he'd said, "I'm sure they don't pay you enough for all the work you're doing, thanks," would that be okay?
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:40 PM
100 posts too late, would it be wrong to say that whether these things are offensive or not depends hugely on nuances of intonation and body language, and thus it is the acme of pointlessness to have an argument about it with the bloke who was actually there and heard what the kid said?
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:40 PM
shit, I meant to include a class-conscious neurosis in there.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:40 PM
105: yes, yes it would. you're banned.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:41 PM
a white frat-boy type Now you're offending Chet.
there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate
Which is pretty much the reason that people PJ O'Roarke are able to sell books making fun of libs. This sort of sensitivity may make sense in college, and perhaps even in graduate school, but I find it hard to believe that it survives the any confrontation with the real world. Maybe there was a tone or context to it that mattered but otherwise...well, see my prior comment asking whether people were joking.
And where the fuck is baa?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:45 PM
Yeah, dsquared, I've been thinking about that, while I've been trying to imagine how people are reading this as innocuous. There were a bunch of people making way for the UPS guy, and stupid white boy, with his hands on his hips, in a booming voice, said, "You're earning your pay today." UPS guy said, almost under his breath, "I earn my pay every day."
I didn't include the details because I didn't quite trust myself, given what an effin jackass I thought the kid was, to tell it straight, so I just reported the indubitable facts.
That said, the set of poses and voices that makes this comment innocuous is far smaller than the set that makes it insensitive.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:47 PM
there seems to be a pretty even split in this thread between people who see his comment as innocuous, and people who think it was totally inappropriate.
The weird part seems to be the emphasis on totally inappropriate. Mildly inappropriate I can almost see; it's the "totally" the puzzles me. The mere fact that you're not alone only shows what we already knew: liberals are neurotic.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:48 PM
The thing is, even if he was a jackass (and you were there, so you know) remembering the incident fifteen years later as even more shocking every time you think of it blows it up into a social issue. If you say he was a jackass, cool, but for the post to be more than "ogged saw a jackass in college once", people are going to be discussing the implied larger social implications.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:52 PM
That said, the set of poses and voices that makes this comment innocuous is far smaller than the set that makes it insensitive.
On your re-telling (lots of people, not addressed directly to him as part of a conversation, etc.), I can see it as offensive. But you've got to be kidding me with the above. Imagine the guy notes a UPS guy moving a heavy package towards a door, helpfully runs over and holds it open, and says the bit. You really find that offensive?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:52 PM
Just to note, it really seems quite possible to me that the UPS guy's remark implies humor, not offense taken.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:55 PM
That too would depend on the tone. ogged said that it was under his breath. If it had been a sassy, "I earn my pay every day, then things would be different."
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:58 PM
people are going to be discussing the implied larger social implications
Which I think is fine and good. But to see the advice implied as "neurotic" or indicative of a pronounced cautiousness assumes what's become the issue, namely, whether the guy was being a jackass.
Imagine the guy notes a UPS guy moving a heavy package towards a door, helpfully runs over and holds it open, and says the bit. You really find that offensive?
I think it's a poor thing for a college student to say to an adult in any situation, but obviously I wouldn't hate the guy so much if he had run over to hold the door.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 4:58 PM
dsquared, a lot of people (me, Kriston, LB) brought that up: 'unless there's some information we don't know, the comment itself is pretty innocuous, though a lot could depend on tone'.... ogged never said anything like 'Oh, the guy was standing, arms akimbo, announcing it like he was a white demi-god'...
I tended to assume it was said with a friendly nod or headshake in passing, with the tones indicating sympathy, because larger or smaller set, that's how it's most often been heard around here. Not having had that perception corrected at all in 100 posts...
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:00 PM
"I earn my pay every day," then things would be different.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:00 PM
What are the possible negative readings of this comment? There's the racist, in which the kid implies that the black guy is lazy, but I don't think anyone is advocating this reading. The other is that the kid spoke before considering that the UPS guys job was sweaty every day. This reading, I think, is what Ogged and others are advocating. Ok. Mildly offensive. Not brain-the-kid-and-go-after-his-parents offensive.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:00 PM
114: I was still discussing as if 109 hadn't happened.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:02 PM
re 118, again, Michael, it wasn't has place to tell the guy he was "earning" anything. I so so should have stuck with the agree to disagree thing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:03 PM
I think it's a poor thing for a college student to say to an adult in any situation
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work? Or because it implies that adult workers might not work hard every single day, which of course is true?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:04 PM
Comment 5 didn't really help clarity much either. Was he friendly, or standing in the corridor annoyed that the slow UPS guy was getting in his way and being a somewhat typical college kid and making sure the whole corridor heard him?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:08 PM
Eh -- we're not talking about racism, ogged saw a jackass in college once, and "Man, you're earning your salary today!" falls into the "Smile when you say that, pardner" category. Is there anything else much to discuss?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:09 PM
I just looked at #5, and it strikes me that I would be much more offended if this was said to me by my boss - what's the implication then, that I don't normally earn my pay?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:13 PM
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work? Or because it implies that adult workers might not work hard every single day
Michael, why are you torturing me? Neither. Because we almost never have enough information about a stranger to say whether he's "earned" something or not. It's particularly galling for a kid to say it, because he likely has even less of a clue than the rest of us.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:14 PM
Ogged, you could have avoided a lot of confusion had you mentioned that the kid closed his comment by whipping out his penis and hollering "phasers on kill, baby!"
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:15 PM
It's the old prejudicial vs. probative value thing, you know?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:17 PM
Except as Armsmasher pointed out, it's not a judgment on whether the pay is earned, but that the work looks particularly hard. It's a clichéd phrase, and one I'm certainly never using again.
Jesus.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:19 PM
It's a clichéd phrase, and one I'm certainly never using again.
Pretty clearly, it's not such a common cliched phrase, and it's likely to be taken the wrong way, so that's probably a good choice.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:23 PM
Arg.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:25 PM
Let's everyone go and have a lactose-free ice cream.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:26 PM
Let's beat up Bridgeplate for not getting involved in the shoutfest.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:27 PM
I second SB.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:27 PM
This post gets a hundred comments? I think we need a revaulation.
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:28 PM
I so so should have stuck with the agree to disagree thing.
you blog, you learn
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:28 PM
I think SB is good for at least XII seconds.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:28 PM
Next week, we teach snees to count.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:29 PM
shoutfest
?
It only sounds like shouting because the crack scews up your senses.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:30 PM
Would ice-cream made from a different kind of milk be okay?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:30 PM
XII seconds.
What the? You don't like arabic numerals? You people invented them!
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:31 PM
I was following BG's lead, Michael.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:32 PM
And, suddenly, ogged's is revealed to be Woody Allen. Next post: "I Distinctly Heard Did 'Jew' Want Something."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:35 PM
I hope your housekeeper cuts off your balls the next time you call her "amigo."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:37 PM
"Amiga."
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:38 PM
me.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:39 PM
In honky, it's "amigo".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:39 PM
Because college kids are incapable of recognizing hard work?
Because college kids are in the position of being able to admire manual labor from afar and to look forward to admire this edifying aesthetic spectacle from afar for the rest of their lives. The guy Ogged remembers felt sufficiently comfortable in his perch to evaluate and comment on that spectacle of work.
The anecdote would stick out in my memory, too, because the UPS dude came up with the perfect rejoinder: dignified but pointed enough for any ears sensitive enough to hear.
Look, maybe I'm also neurotic and oversensitive, but when I hang out outside my department's building, which has stairs, I see delivery guys struggle with heavy loads up the stairs all the time. This is a situation I see every damn week.
Do you run to help, thereby insulting their ability to do their jobs? Do you stand there and say "Wow, when you take home your pitiful salary tonight, you'll be saying 'well deserved' to yourself!"? Do you hold the door? Do you ignore them, either because workers should be invisible or because speaking to workers is too-too uncomfortable?
Usually, I run to hold the door and ask the delivery guy if there's some sort of event on. Sometimes, if the guy is struggling, I'll grab the back-end of the load. If I'm actually doing something, like talking to friends or grading papers, I'll ignore the guy. Helping the guy up the stairs or in the door is maybe presumptive, and certainly shouldn't count as any special virtue--but, to my way of seeing, it would be unthinkably insulting to stand still and comment.
How about seeing Ogged's undergrad's comment as rude with a slight undercurrent of racism?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:39 PM
"Amiga."
Oy vey. What are you people, scabs posting under the handles of the old, smart Unfogged commentariat? That was the point.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:41 PM
Oh, hell, by the time I post, everyone's decided to call the whole thing off.
For the record, most ice cream is disgusting, and lactose-free ice cream particularly so.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:42 PM
Yeah, my crack ran out so I couldn't post.
How can you find ice cream disgusting? I'm curious.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:44 PM
See 146. Can I keep my genius goggles?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:44 PM
Ok, my head is going to explode from the rightness of Jackmormon's 147 and the wrongness of his 149.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:44 PM
You're still the old union Bridgeplate, Bridgeplate.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:45 PM
'Her 149', innit?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:46 PM
Jackmormon is a woman?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:48 PM
Plus you called her a 'moron' in 152. Are you insulting the Mormons?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:49 PM
That typo has been corrected.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:50 PM
JM (not a 'he', I think; I can approximate the meaning of "Jackmormon" if you don't feel like it)'s 147 captures why I didn't post until now--I think these are damn complicated issues. It reminds me of the end of David Lodge's Nice Work ("fifth excerpt" here), where the lefty English prof has been imagining a Utopian union of academe and the working class, and sees the students outside quietly moving out of the gardeners' way: "There is no overt arrogance on the students' part, or evident resentment on the young gardener's, just a kind of mutual, instinctive avoidance of contact." (But is that what the gardener thinks?) It's not good for classes to move in separate spheres, but it can be hard to talk to strangers without seeming like a jerk--especially when race and class enter into it.
I hope I've managed not to say anything. I'm trying not to say anything.
149 is crazy, though. Don't jackmormons still like sweet stuff?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:52 PM
Jack Mormon.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:54 PM
More explanation on his/her blog's sidebar.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 5:57 PM
Ah, thanks for the tip. Had managed not to catch that.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:02 PM
"Thus it is the acme of pointlessness to have an argument about it with the bloke who was actually there and heard what the kid said?"
Talk about defining acmes down!
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:16 PM
Whoa, and here I'm become a Topic of Discussion. It was the expression of non-preference in re Ice Cream, wasn't it?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:37 PM
Oh, and re 156, that's a typo I've seen repeatedly and have determined, determinedly, not to take as an insult.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:39 PM
I don't think I can answer 163 without aggravating the problem, if it is one. In any case, your fruit basket will be along shortly.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:45 PM
I've lurked here for awhile. While the virtual fruit basket mollifies the imagination, I never thought that I could insinuate myself into the trusted commentarient here, as it were, without going through some hazing. Disputes over whether I'm a moron or a mormon, a male or a female, pass over me as the river o'er the stones.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 6:56 PM
I never thought that I could insinuate myself into the trusted commentarient here, as it were, without going through some hazing.
What a retarded thing to think, Mr. Jackmehoff.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:09 PM
If you want hazing, there are other links that could be supplied for fruit basket. If I could find them.
Apropos of nothing, I note the definitive proof that Wolfson and I are right about "which"--bringing Labs' thing for mendacious women to shocking heights.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:11 PM
Well, yeah, I misspelled commentiart. Is this part of the hazing?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:15 PM
I mean commentariat. Have I demonstrated sufficient humility now?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:17 PM
Have I demonstrated sufficient humility now?
Remove the Stone of Shame, and attach the Stone of Triumph!
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:25 PM
You're lucky you have a safe-conduct. But don't worry, Michael will not be criticizing your spelling anytime soon.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:26 PM
Carp. Matt F wins.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:27 PM
Woohoo! Where's my fruit basket?
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:29 PM
New commenters, new regime: lots of agreeing with ogged!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:34 PM
Apostropher? Can you point Matt F to the fruit basket?
(Ogged on crack. Disregard him.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:38 PM
Good lord. Should I post a jpeg of me "titttiiiieeees" to prove my lurker status or the pervasive rumor that I may be female? Too bad: I don't own a digital camera.
And hey, I've seen people correct themselves on spelling before the overeducated and underemployed got to it--more's the pity that I began to make myself known with a couple of intensified errors, really.
Arrgh, and back to the orginal subject of this thread, Ogged and I are right and the rest of you lack imagination.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:46 PM
175: wishful thinking.
Ogged on crack. Disregard him.
finally, a sensible drug policy is articulated.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:47 PM
JackM--didn't mean to haze you, really, I mean for my money no one has anything to prove around here.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 7:51 PM
No Mr. M, Don't fear hazing. The water's quite warm here.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:20 PM
Matt Weiner: Good heavens, I've lurked long to understand the dominant paradigm. Consider me a tough egg; I can take it.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:21 PM
Yeah, Jackmormon, until I read 177 I was considering a gentle gibe at the two Matts (the two in this thread, lord knows how many there are) for flirting with a new commenter as soon as they show up and their gender is mentioned, but apparently you weren't reading it that way. 179 makes me still think they were.
I correct my own spelling and grammar all the time. Which is similar to bragging about paying back all of the people one has robbed.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:23 PM
Well, the backstory to 179 is that Jackm. said in a post on her blog that she was too intimidated to post here and I left a comment encouraging her to do so. So I was particularly self-conscious about the possibility that I'd been a jerk to her.
Now, JM, what's your opinion on bunny slippers?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:37 PM
Have I missed some evidence that jackm is a she?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:38 PM
apparently you weren't reading it that way
Once my gender has come up, I don't care which way it's read. I've deliberately tried to make it not an issue, but obviously, that hasn't really worked.
No, seriously my only fears about commenting here are being revealed as being fears of being either nonsensical, non-grammatical, or un-funny. Among those three, the latter is the most paralyzing.
Um, I'll work on being funny?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:41 PM
I'm so glad you understand the funny rule, jackm.
And of course you don't have to reveal your gender. It was just that Weiner and LB seemed so sure.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:44 PM
flirting with a new commenter as soon as they show up and their gender is mentioned
eye cants help meself, ish the way eye wiz rheysed...t'wos da saime wid me fadder an me fadders fadder, tis a turabel trajedie.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:44 PM
Of course, the most important thing about the funny rule is that it's much much worse to try and fail, than not to try at all.
Have fun, all!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:48 PM
Apostropher? Can you point Matt F to the fruit basket?
It's over there.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:49 PM
the most important thing about the funny rule is that it's much much worse to try and fail, than not to try at all.
Ogged is brained!
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:50 PM
merci
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:51 PM
And of course you don't have to reveal your gender. And of course I am female, with gigantic titties, a small waist, and advanced degrees. And a penchant for Persians. I swear.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:55 PM
You are a 47 yr old balding male, and you will like it!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 8:59 PM
Exoticizing the Other.
Not a euphemism.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:01 PM
I wouldn't date anyone who thinks, before meeting me, that dating a persian is a good idea.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:01 PM
Oh how lovely, apo...I feel so blessed.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:07 PM
195: That managed to be pompous and self-effacing at the same time. I applaud you, sir.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:08 PM
Bunny slippers are ridiculous.
Take that from whatever gender you please.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:12 PM
Jackmormon can be whatever gender Jackmormonself pleases, no?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 9:57 PM
Now, in this one instance, I'm going to aloow that ogged was there and I wasn't, and should be trusted to identify that the kid was being a jackass, but:
I surely can't be the only son of middle class parents that went to college who also had extensive experience busting serious hump for little pay. I have been a farmhand, I have done road construction, I have been a fry cook, I have unloaded trucks, I have worked retail for 12-hour shifts. I've always had a safet net, and I've always known that if I didn't fuck up too badly that better, easier work was ahead, but I don't think I'm crazy saying that I know what it's like to do hard, physical labor. And, on occasion, even though I don't look like it now, I do like to communicate to folks, especcially those who are doing something for me, that I know how hard what they're doing is, and that I appreciate what they're doing. Is that so wrong?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:04 PM
Also: I shouldn't comment drunk.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:05 PM
Jeez, we don't even call 200 anymore. (JM, not picking a gender because I couldn't think of a witty way to bring this in; but as a lurker, you probably knew about it anyway.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:08 PM
For the sake of argument, let's assume that I am a ravishingly attractive, well-endowed female nerd currently dating a Persian-American who is not Ogged.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:08 PM
Chopper, I don't disagree with any part of 200, and I don't think anyone else does either.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:08 PM
Sure. I'm just saying that there are situations where frat-looking college boys could say what this kid said and it would be OK, or even nice. So, given that you didn't give us the context necessary to share the conclusion you provided for us, you suck.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:21 PM
And, of course, by "I agree," I meant, "You suck."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:23 PM
I semi-lurk at Obsidian Wings (I've commented, but it's a rarity), and I think, though I'm not certain and I'm not googling for it, that Jackmormon has mentioned Jackmormon's gender there.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:42 PM
Oh how lovely, apo...I feel so blessed.
Welcome aboard.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 6-05 10:57 PM
Ditto in all respects to 207, with the slight difference that I'm not sure why I think I know JM's gender (that is, I have no particular memory of a post referencing it), just that I have a strong belief in that regard. And that I can think of few people from OW that I'd be happier to see here.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-05 7:46 AM
Ah, I knew JM's handle looked familiar. Of course I'd seen it at OW. (I've never commented there myself—it's too intimidating.)
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 7-05 7:51 AM
I'm pretty much limited to getting into the occasional argument with SH or Slart. They're both in that maddening category of rightwingers (or however they'd self-identify) who are close enough to what I recognize as reality that it feels as if you could convince them of something, although I can't say as I ever have.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 7-05 7:54 AM
Blogdom's a cold and brutal place if you set out to try to change anyone's mind about anything.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 7-05 7:56 AM
We must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 7-05 7:59 AM