I read the pages you linked from Amazon, and it's not a legend -- a character is telling the story as something that happened to a specific child, and then produces that child (p. 83). No one's suggesting that Scooter's a danger to children, but the passage is pretty darn weird.
And I think you're oversimplifying the agruments against Alito too -- which don't depend on endorsing O'Connor's prose.
Also, I defend myself on LizardBreathian lines. Including that myth (in context) is still sufficient. And it's coming back to haunt him in just this way: he's being made to look ridiculous in just the way that's warranted.
Should we bother responding to his substantive points?
The Scooter bear/child story is part of a legend that's recounted by one of the book's characters. It's supposed to be weird in the way that, for example, creation myths are weird.
Well, I don't see that this is much different. Either he's subjecting one of his characters to the weirdness, or he's tellinging a story inside his story in which a character is subjected to the weirdness. One is supposedly a little more removed from the author, but, it's still part of the story he chooses to tell.
To be fair, there's all kinds of wierd shit in lots of great novels which can look pretty wierd/stupid out of context (or even in context for that matter).
Pynchon is seen as a literary great but there's some pretty fucked up stuff in 'Gravity's Rainbow'.
And a few days ago there was much beating up on Alito. I don't want him on the court either, but the notion that he's evil because he didn't think Pennsylvania's spousal notification provision constituted an undue burden on pregnant women is silly.
I remember an awful lot of discussion as to the merits of his arguments in that thread, and can't say I actually remember any ad hominen attacks. I think I skimmed part of the thread though. Were people really going about and calling him evil?
Having done an extensive review of the available literature on the subject, and after having done numerous experiments comparing the benefits and shortcomings of the various methods, I feel confident in saying that talking out of one's ass simpliciter really is the best way to talk out of one's ass.
This link should get you from the appearance of the bear to the affirmative answer to our question, "was there feeling? Even after the bear?" I grant Matt M's point, but I also think the chances of exculpatory greatness are minimal in this case.
You know, even if the whole bear episode is supposed to be oratio obliqua or some such, that doesn't change the fact that the book is atrociously written. Surely we can abuse it on those grounds.
the man pressed his free hand against its haunches
He began to piss in the snow in front of the deer's nostrils.
I see no earthly reason for including this, as well as the penis-pulling-out bit, unless this is some obscure hunting practice (pissing on nearly-dead animals) I'm unfamiliar with.
Ok, so bad html formatting ate some of my words, and then I managed a double post because, as is usually the case for double posts, the first appeared not to have posted. For the third time (or the first time, correctly):
I had no idea the Broken Lizard crew was paying homage to Libby [Do a "find on page" for "bear" at the link for explanation.].
Jeezis, it's not only deer sex but deer snuff porn. ogged, you can sometimes carry your rightly acclaimed generosity a little too far. Scooter's from weirdsville, no question about it.
Mmmm. There's a fine line between "rightly acclaimed generosity" and "post-and-run condemnation of people who are reasonably mocking the genuinely risible."
Also? I don't want to get all feministy about it? And you can tell I'm feeling tentative because of the rising intonations? But that list of exceptions does NOT cover the ground. It reflects, to show a little generosity, some poverty of imagination. What if she doesn't KNOW who the father is? What if she is a victim of spousal abuse but, not inconceivably, doesn't feel like signing a statement under penalty of perjury that she is?
Hoellebecq writes good weird conservative sex. The prize really belongs to Vladimir Sorokin's Goluboe Salo (Blue Lard) for its homosexual triste between clones of Stalin and Krushchev. (For which he was jailed.)
41: But I think I was saying that my criticism of his jurisprudence was, not that it was absolutely lawless, but that it reflected narsty values; so I think Ogged is OK to say that I was calling him evil.
I endorsed the use of the word 'asshole', I think in the sense that Matt was using it, but I wouldn't say evil. I'd say that I think there's reasonably good evidence that Alito wants different things out of what he considers a decent society than I do -- for that I'll call him an asshole, but not evil.
Er, ogged, if you feel so fucking proprietorial, you could always show your face every now and again. For fuck's sake man, you sound like Donald Rumsfeld decrying the lawlessness in Fallujah. Don't be such a wuss.
Well, he's almost certainly not evil in the way that DeLay is evil. I grant that he's sincerely pursuing his own conception of the good, but that's not enough to prove he's not evil in my book. Not sure the extent to which I want to evilize the sorts of disagreements I have with him, so I'm not sure about what I really want to say of him--"asshole" is probably safer--but I don't think Ogged's original remark was out of line.
actually, has anyone else noticed that hiatus-ogged is sort of a bitch? you can tell by the goggle tan. i think (s)he has been spending too much time with wolfson at you know where
No, don't go!
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 10:55 AM
VICTORY!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:01 AM
Bwahahahahahahaha!
It worked!
Great job, everybody! It took discipline, teamwork, and undying effort, but we got the job done.
Very, very excellent!
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:03 AM
Frist?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:03 AM
Should we bother responding to his substantive points? Nah.
Open thread! Allusion to Yes song!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:06 AM
I read the pages you linked from Amazon, and it's not a legend -- a character is telling the story as something that happened to a specific child, and then produces that child (p. 83). No one's suggesting that Scooter's a danger to children, but the passage is pretty darn weird.
And I think you're oversimplifying the agruments against Alito too -- which don't depend on endorsing O'Connor's prose.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:07 AM
I agree. The supreme court is no place for bear fuckers.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:11 AM
Also, I defend myself on LizardBreathian lines. Including that myth (in context) is still sufficient. And it's coming back to haunt him in just this way: he's being made to look ridiculous in just the way that's warranted.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:12 AM
LizardBreath, c'mon.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:12 AM
Ogged, don't be like this guy.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:14 AM
Ogged could just as well complain that an orchestra tends to plays like crap without its conductor. It's true, but what did you expect?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:16 AM
Indeed, Tripp. (Reynoldsian, I know.)
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:18 AM
Should we bother responding to his substantive points?
The Scooter bear/child story is part of a legend that's recounted by one of the book's characters. It's supposed to be weird in the way that, for example, creation myths are weird.
Well, I don't see that this is much different. Either he's subjecting one of his characters to the weirdness, or he's tellinging a story inside his story in which a character is subjected to the weirdness. One is supposedly a little more removed from the author, but, it's still part of the story he chooses to tell.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:25 AM
And I echo people.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:27 AM
To be fair, there's all kinds of wierd shit in lots of great novels which can look pretty wierd/stupid out of context (or even in context for that matter).
Pynchon is seen as a literary great but there's some pretty fucked up stuff in 'Gravity's Rainbow'.
Libby is still a dick though.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:29 AM
And, you know, it never did come back to haunt him. He wasn't indicted for his novel.
Ogged? Trying to deflate your opponents by setting up ridiculous straw men isn't like you.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:30 AM
And a few days ago there was much beating up on Alito. I don't want him on the court either, but the notion that he's evil because he didn't think Pennsylvania's spousal notification provision constituted an undue burden on pregnant women is silly.
I remember an awful lot of discussion as to the merits of his arguments in that thread, and can't say I actually remember any ad hominen attacks. I think I skimmed part of the thread though. Were people really going about and calling him evil?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:34 AM
I called him an asshole, yes.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 11:38 AM
Having done an extensive review of the available literature on the subject, and after having done numerous experiments comparing the benefits and shortcomings of the various methods, I feel confident in saying that talking out of one's ass simpliciter really is the best way to talk out of one's ass.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:01 PM
Does "thppppptttt" rhyme with "poppoppoppopsqueeeeeeak"?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:18 PM
Why is my site turning into Eschaton?
Clearly because your absence is bringing about the end times.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:37 PM
Does "thppppptttt" rhyme with "poppoppoppopsqueeeeeeak"?
Only loosely.
In any case, when speaking in verse, I prefer assonance to rhyme.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:41 PM
In any case, when speaking in verse, I prefer assonance to rhyme.
This seeming preference is really nothing more than an artifact of your Wirkorgan's inability to produce rhyme.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:49 PM
This link should get you from the appearance of the bear to the affirmative answer to our question, "was there feeling? Even after the bear?" I grant Matt M's point, but I also think the chances of exculpatory greatness are minimal in this case.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:51 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:53 PM
You know, even if the whole bear episode is supposed to be oratio obliqua or some such, that doesn't change the fact that the book is atrociously written. Surely we can abuse it on those grounds.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 12:56 PM
the man pressed his free hand against its haunches
He began to piss in the snow in front of the deer's nostrils.
I see no earthly reason for including this, as well as the penis-pulling-out bit, unless this is some obscure hunting practice (pissing on nearly-dead animals) I'm unfamiliar with.
Scooter must like the zoo.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:03 PM
Although it's not exactly clear what transpires with the deer.
Good romance writing depends on an element of mystery.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:03 PM
That's why the deer is still sexually attractive -- it's mystery is preserved by not having given birth in front of the hunters.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:09 PM
Scooter must like the zoo.
Maybe he can get assigned there as part of his work-release deal.
"Hey, isn't that Scooter Libby?"
"Yeah, but everybody calls him Scooper now."
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:10 PM
LB, that was such a great comment, until I got to "it's".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:15 PM
I know -- I died a little inside when I saw it.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:18 PM
But since we didn't see you squeeze out your children, we still find you sexually attractive, LB. Now hold still while I pee in the snow.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:22 PM
I had no idea the Broken Lizard crew was to Libby [Do a find on page for "bear" if you have no idea what I'm talking about.].
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:35 PM
I had no idea the Broken Lizard crew was to Libby [Do a find on page for "bear" if you have no idea what I'm talking about.].
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:37 PM
It doesn't make any more sense when repeated, I'm afraid.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:38 PM
Ok, so bad html formatting ate some of my words, and then I managed a double post because, as is usually the case for double posts, the first appeared not to have posted. For the third time (or the first time, correctly):
I had no idea the Broken Lizard crew was paying homage to Libby [Do a "find on page" for "bear" at the link for explanation.].
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 1:54 PM
Jeezis, it's not only deer sex but deer snuff porn. ogged, you can sometimes carry your rightly acclaimed generosity a little too far. Scooter's from weirdsville, no question about it.
And Pynchon? Dude's not running the country.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 2:39 PM
Mmmm. There's a fine line between "rightly acclaimed generosity" and "post-and-run condemnation of people who are reasonably mocking the genuinely risible."
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 2:43 PM
Also? I don't want to get all feministy about it? And you can tell I'm feeling tentative because of the rising intonations? But that list of exceptions does NOT cover the ground. It reflects, to show a little generosity, some poverty of imagination. What if she doesn't KNOW who the father is? What if she is a victim of spousal abuse but, not inconceivably, doesn't feel like signing a statement under penalty of perjury that she is?
You know, just to envision two sticky wickets.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 2:47 PM
I called him an asshole, yes.
AH, you were arguing his jurisprudence.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 3:02 PM
Hoellebecq writes good weird conservative sex. The prize really belongs to Vladimir Sorokin's Goluboe Salo (Blue Lard) for its homosexual triste between clones of Stalin and Krushchev. (For which he was jailed.)
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 3:38 PM
41: But I think I was saying that my criticism of his jurisprudence was, not that it was absolutely lawless, but that it reflected narsty values; so I think Ogged is OK to say that I was calling him evil.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 4:44 PM
Are you going with evil, here? It seems like a gratuitous use of evil.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:14 PM
Eeeeeevilllll.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:17 PM
I endorsed the use of the word 'asshole', I think in the sense that Matt was using it, but I wouldn't say evil. I'd say that I think there's reasonably good evidence that Alito wants different things out of what he considers a decent society than I do -- for that I'll call him an asshole, but not evil.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:32 PM
Er, ogged, if you feel so fucking proprietorial, you could always show your face every now and again. For fuck's sake man, you sound like Donald Rumsfeld decrying the lawlessness in Fallujah. Don't be such a wuss.
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:32 PM
Well, he's almost certainly not evil in the way that DeLay is evil. I grant that he's sincerely pursuing his own conception of the good, but that's not enough to prove he's not evil in my book. Not sure the extent to which I want to evilize the sorts of disagreements I have with him, so I'm not sure about what I really want to say of him--"asshole" is probably safer--but I don't think Ogged's original remark was out of line.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:36 PM
I like Hiatus-Ogged better than Ogged-Ogged.
Posted by Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:41 PM
Hiatus-Ogged emails me more frequently than Ogged-Ogged, so that's nice.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11- 4-05 5:50 PM
Hiatus-ogged emails me not at all, the bitch.
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 11- 5-05 4:17 PM
actually, has anyone else noticed that hiatus-ogged is sort of a bitch? you can tell by the goggle tan. i think (s)he has been spending too much time with wolfson at you know where
Posted by peter snees | Link to this comment | 11- 7-05 5:06 PM