I noticed this quite a bit when I was training as well. I think it has to do with the fact that flip turns are a very violent manuever and take up enough oxygen such that, after X number of laps, one must breath every cycle.
But...there is one woman who swims there (who swam in college), who does flips turns, and is just a machine--she seems like she could go forever. And there's one older, leaner guy who is also a machine-like flip-turner, (I think he also used to be a competitive swimmer).
Dude, I told you my brother-in-law used to coach at UCLA, and that you could ask him any questions you want. And you were all, Oh no, I know whatever he can tell me already.
A flip turn should be as relaxed as (maybe more relaxed than) an open turn, although, of course, you miss the chance to stop and take a breath. Have you tried breathing every cycle from the beginning?
On preview, I see ac's comment--you should ask her brother-in-law.
Thanks, that's considerate. I don't really need coaching at a distance at this point, as I basically know what's to be done, but need someone to look and tell me where I'm not doing it. The Swede has moved away and I'll look for a local coach after the appropriate mourning period has passed.
You are exhaling with your face in the water and then only inhaling when you turn your head, right?
Secondly, never underestimate the old, fat dude. He's also experienced and buoyant. Swimming really rewards subtleties of technique, especially involving muscle groups that you never use outside of the pool.
Finally, it's not at all clear how hard someone is working from looking at their stroke, exactly because of those subtleties. 90% of the effort of swimming happens underwater, but most of what you see happens above the water.
As for flip turns, bend your body at the waist (completely), then bend your knees, your feet should hit the wall oriented horizontally, and you should gradually rotate onto your stomach as you come to the surface. They shouldn't be much harder than swimming, and they're WAY faster, so if you're swimming on an interval, doing open turns is a losing proposition.
It's not likely working too hard on the turn alone, though working it hard and going a fair piece without inhaling is part of it. That is, if you're doing flip turns correctly (not taking a breath just into the turn, not breathing during the turn as you would during an open turn (obviously), kicking off the wall, and not breathing on the first stroke out of the turn), you've gone a long way without breathing, even if your turn is relaxed.
The key is over-time oxygen debt. You're breathing, it sounds like, every 4th stroke (i.e., to one side, every other time that side's arm recovers from the stroke). That is not a lot; I breathed every 2 my entire career, and I had really good lung capacity (my bong hits were of some notoriety). If I breathed every 3 or 4, I slowly went into oxygen debt. This is both because of infrequency and _shallowness_ of breath. One can breath more deeply to compensate, I suppose, but it really sucks to do (you don't take huge lungfuls of air when running around on the basketball court do you? No - except when you're stopped altogether). When active, it's more efficient to take shorter breaths.
Here's my suggestions:
1. Pop up quickly out of the turn, pull with your TOP arm, and breathe to that side. This is strictly speaking poor technique, but even very good swimmers do this in practice because it gets you more oxygen.
2. Take a quick, no-pull head turn breath just before you flip. Again, poor technique; again, some good swimmers do this when tired in practice.
3. More importantly, breathe every 2 (to one side, every time the arm on the side recovers) or every 3 (opposite sides). Or try a hybrid, breathe twice quickly before and after each turn, then revert to your standard 4.
4. Try a length or two of backstroke just as you get winded. You can re-normalize oxygen because your face will be out of the water. In a similar vein, try an open turn every 3rd turn or so.
5. try swimming in a long-course (50 meter) pool. Fewer turn to mess things up.
6. You can also try pulling with a buoy 'twixt your legs. Your legs use a lot of O2, and pulling will leave you less breathless.
Thanks, phred! I definitely get less winded when pulling, as stands to reason. And I find myself automatically doing the hybrid you suggest when I start to get tired: every two into and out of a turn, then every four. And you must be right about oxygen debt, because when I first get in the pool, I can swim a hundred pretty easily and only breathe once or twice down each length (not that this is not how I normally start my workout--by plunging myself into oxygen debt).
I was worried you'd tell me to breathe every two. I find it *much* harder to hold form with my non-breathing side pull when breathing every cycle.
(And I'd kill for regular access to a 50 meter pool.)
Re: form on non-breathing (pulling) arm while breathing every 2.
This is pretty common. One thing you might try is completing your breathing head-turn during the 'catch' of the pulling arm. There are two components to this. Most important is the timing of the strokes. Very good swimmers look as if they are doing the "catch up" freestyle drill, where the non-pulling hand stay straight out front while the other hand does a pull and recovery (and process is repeated, alternating arms). That is, their recovering arm is entering the water while the pulling hand is about at the shoulder (I may be a little off here, but you can see it on film). This means that head is straight ahead even earlier, such that it is turned (along with your body) only during the catch of the pull. Second, your face should only out of the water as long as it takes to draw a short breath.
Maybe a big-picture description would help. Good swimmers swim freestyle on their sides, not stomachs. That is, they are on their left sides when their left arm catches, and roll to their right as they follow through, just as the right arm catches. If you do it that way, you can catch a quick breath at the height of the roll, which shouldn't disrupt the catch, and roll the head back forward as your body rolls with the pull.
Good luck. You should post an underwater vid; no one will recognize you in cap and goggles.
Thanks again, Phred. I've been trying to have my face back in the water by the time my non-breathing side pull is ready to begin. I think the timing is going to take quite a bit of practice. What I've found with "front-quadrant" swimming, though, is that unless you have a powerful kick, it's almost pull-stop-pull-stop. So my arm is out front just long enough to let me extend it fully.
It would be very cool to get a video of oneself; I imagine a lot of things would make more sense if I could see what I was really doing. Here's a clip (10 MB) of vd Hoogenband and Thorpe, side by side, in case there's anything you'd like to point out about what they're doing.
Does anyone have suggestions for coaching for poor swimmers who'd just like to be able to swim laps reliably. I've got a bunch of problems, but one is that I can't even swim straight.
Lots of people tell me that I should take up swimming, but I just suck at it. I had a bad experience where I got sick at summer camp, and I associate it with swimming in the cold lake on rainy days and those awful drops they put in our ears. I didn't try swimming again until college.
Has anyone tried teh Aquasphere seal mask? It looks totally geeky, but if it works...
I ask, because I never found regular goggles which fit my face properly. No matter what I did, no matter what type I tried, they always let water in.
I probably never used the Aquasphere mask, but I probably used dozens of different masks of that style back when I was a kid, and I never found one that didn't leak and fog. (The fog was usually the worse part.) I never used goggles much, but when I did I found they were worse for the leaking.
the best thing for timing is in many cases the "catch-up" drill I described above (you've probably heard of it, or been taught; in any case, there's got to be a vid of it out there). It's true that without a powerful kick, you'll be doing a lot of pull, lose momentum, ... You'll do less yardage, but it will be just as good a workout. Seriously think about doing a large proportion of your workout in drills (one-arm free, opposite extended; one-arm free, opposite arm by side; catch-up; swimming fists clenched etc.). My club team (age 9 to 18) used to spend a month every fall doing almost all drills to dial technique.
BG - I had a friend who went from utter fear of water / inability to swim more than one length at a time in January to completing a two-mile open water swim (as part of an ironman triathlon) in early fall. She found a triathlon / masters swimming group that was composed mostly of people who hadn't swum much - most were already runners or bikers. The coaches are not paid much, but very good, and they are used to starting from scratch.
Another possibility is to find a local gay master's club (often an acronym with "AQUA", 'Q' for queer; at least two I've practiced with do this). I've swum with various master's clubs, and they're generally pretty laid back and accepting of people at all levels. But the expressly gay ones (NB: they're by no means exclusive of heteros, and in fact there doesn't even seem to be a strong presumption that participants are gay) are more so; plus, they tend to be smaller, and there are fewer of the super competitive swimmers, who want to train with the bigger clubs (= more sheer numbers of fast swimmers).
Finally, a lot of times the best thing to do is just go thrash, and watch people better than you for awhile and try to emulate them. The learning curve is steep. You can then find a swimmer friend or someone who just happens to be at the pool and ask for tips. People ask me stuff pretty often, and I never mind giving suggestions for a couple minutes.
Also, the snorkel may well help - it can keep you from getting disoriented while you turn. I guarantee that it won't be the dorkiest thing you see at the pool.
Scratch that. I see you were talking about a mask. That's less dorky than a snorkel, so if it works... One thing to note about goggle fit: often people think that they need goggles cover their eye sockets, and buy huge-eyed, black foam rubber things (my wife, for one, who has small eye sockets but GIANT goggles). The opposite approach is often better: smaller (perhaps foamless) goggles that fit just around the eyeball seal better.
phred--Thanks on the goggle advice. I tried to find tiny swedish goggles once, but the placement of my cheekbones, eye socket and eye brow meant that that never seemed to work right. Since I'm near-sighted going goggle-free isn't a real option.
The coach's first question was: "Is this guy really lean? Because buoyancy in the water is helpful. That may be a reason that kids who float go into swimming and the skinny ones run."
When you first posted this, I rolled my eyes. I didn't expect you to get useful swimming coaching from the whole sick crew around here.
But cool coaching from phred (I liked reading it, and I haven't swam since I survived (barely) a 2k swim in a triathlon 20 years ago) and an indirect link to an NCAA coach. All this plus cock jokes and snark, truly the largess of the unfogged community knows no bounds.
I have the same problem whether I breathe every 2,3, or 4 strokes. Even when I swam two hours/day in high school. Is breathing through your nose (in and/or out) important? Because I can't -- my sinuses are really messed up! I'm dying to have an expert opinion here.
I noticed this quite a bit when I was training as well. I think it has to do with the fact that flip turns are a very violent manuever and take up enough oxygen such that, after X number of laps, one must breath every cycle.
Posted by tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:28 PM
Do the olderfatterduden do flip turns?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:36 PM
Nein.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:38 PM
But...there is one woman who swims there (who swam in college), who does flips turns, and is just a machine--she seems like she could go forever. And there's one older, leaner guy who is also a machine-like flip-turner, (I think he also used to be a competitive swimmer).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:40 PM
Dude, I told you my brother-in-law used to coach at UCLA, and that you could ask him any questions you want. And you were all, Oh no, I know whatever he can tell me already.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:41 PM
Eat more avocadoes.
Posted by MMGood | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:42 PM
And you were all, Oh no, I know whatever he can tell me already.
I can't possibly have said that.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:43 PM
A flip turn should be as relaxed as (maybe more relaxed than) an open turn, although, of course, you miss the chance to stop and take a breath. Have you tried breathing every cycle from the beginning?
On preview, I see ac's comment--you should ask her brother-in-law.
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:44 PM
What I wrote to the lying, hurtful ac:
ac is Karl Rove.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:46 PM
Semantics. The fact remains that here is an issue that a long-distance coach can help you with. That's all I was pointing out.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:50 PM
A flip turn should be as relaxed as (maybe more relaxed than) an open turn
Huh, that's interesting--now that you say that, I'm almost sure I'm working too hard during the flip.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:50 PM
Semantics.
"The British government has learned..."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:53 PM
Anyway, you made that offer months ago; I'd forgotten all about it. Maybe I should ask him.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 3:54 PM
Why does ogged hate ac? And the truth?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:02 PM
I passed on your question.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:04 PM
Thank you, but there is no going back. We must have a duel.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:05 PM
I passed on your question.
Semantics?
One sentence, two nearly opposite meanings.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:07 PM
Choice of weapon is ac's.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:09 PM
You are exhaling with your face in the water and then only inhaling when you turn your head, right?
Secondly, never underestimate the old, fat dude. He's also experienced and buoyant. Swimming really rewards subtleties of technique, especially involving muscle groups that you never use outside of the pool.
Finally, it's not at all clear how hard someone is working from looking at their stroke, exactly because of those subtleties. 90% of the effort of swimming happens underwater, but most of what you see happens above the water.
As for flip turns, bend your body at the waist (completely), then bend your knees, your feet should hit the wall oriented horizontally, and you should gradually rotate onto your stomach as you come to the surface. They shouldn't be much harder than swimming, and they're WAY faster, so if you're swimming on an interval, doing open turns is a losing proposition.
Posted by Jake | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:24 PM
ex-college (Div I) swimmer here.
It's not likely working too hard on the turn alone, though working it hard and going a fair piece without inhaling is part of it. That is, if you're doing flip turns correctly (not taking a breath just into the turn, not breathing during the turn as you would during an open turn (obviously), kicking off the wall, and not breathing on the first stroke out of the turn), you've gone a long way without breathing, even if your turn is relaxed.
The key is over-time oxygen debt. You're breathing, it sounds like, every 4th stroke (i.e., to one side, every other time that side's arm recovers from the stroke). That is not a lot; I breathed every 2 my entire career, and I had really good lung capacity (my bong hits were of some notoriety). If I breathed every 3 or 4, I slowly went into oxygen debt. This is both because of infrequency and _shallowness_ of breath. One can breath more deeply to compensate, I suppose, but it really sucks to do (you don't take huge lungfuls of air when running around on the basketball court do you? No - except when you're stopped altogether). When active, it's more efficient to take shorter breaths.
Here's my suggestions:
1. Pop up quickly out of the turn, pull with your TOP arm, and breathe to that side. This is strictly speaking poor technique, but even very good swimmers do this in practice because it gets you more oxygen.
2. Take a quick, no-pull head turn breath just before you flip. Again, poor technique; again, some good swimmers do this when tired in practice.
3. More importantly, breathe every 2 (to one side, every time the arm on the side recovers) or every 3 (opposite sides). Or try a hybrid, breathe twice quickly before and after each turn, then revert to your standard 4.
4. Try a length or two of backstroke just as you get winded. You can re-normalize oxygen because your face will be out of the water. In a similar vein, try an open turn every 3rd turn or so.
5. try swimming in a long-course (50 meter) pool. Fewer turn to mess things up.
6. You can also try pulling with a buoy 'twixt your legs. Your legs use a lot of O2, and pulling will leave you less breathless.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:29 PM
Thanks, phred! I definitely get less winded when pulling, as stands to reason. And I find myself automatically doing the hybrid you suggest when I start to get tired: every two into and out of a turn, then every four. And you must be right about oxygen debt, because when I first get in the pool, I can swim a hundred pretty easily and only breathe once or twice down each length (not that this is not how I normally start my workout--by plunging myself into oxygen debt).
I was worried you'd tell me to breathe every two. I find it *much* harder to hold form with my non-breathing side pull when breathing every cycle.
(And I'd kill for regular access to a 50 meter pool.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 4:43 PM
Re: form on non-breathing (pulling) arm while breathing every 2.
This is pretty common. One thing you might try is completing your breathing head-turn during the 'catch' of the pulling arm. There are two components to this. Most important is the timing of the strokes. Very good swimmers look as if they are doing the "catch up" freestyle drill, where the non-pulling hand stay straight out front while the other hand does a pull and recovery (and process is repeated, alternating arms). That is, their recovering arm is entering the water while the pulling hand is about at the shoulder (I may be a little off here, but you can see it on film). This means that head is straight ahead even earlier, such that it is turned (along with your body) only during the catch of the pull. Second, your face should only out of the water as long as it takes to draw a short breath.
Maybe a big-picture description would help. Good swimmers swim freestyle on their sides, not stomachs. That is, they are on their left sides when their left arm catches, and roll to their right as they follow through, just as the right arm catches. If you do it that way, you can catch a quick breath at the height of the roll, which shouldn't disrupt the catch, and roll the head back forward as your body rolls with the pull.
Good luck. You should post an underwater vid; no one will recognize you in cap and goggles.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 5:15 PM
Thanks again, Phred. I've been trying to have my face back in the water by the time my non-breathing side pull is ready to begin. I think the timing is going to take quite a bit of practice. What I've found with "front-quadrant" swimming, though, is that unless you have a powerful kick, it's almost pull-stop-pull-stop. So my arm is out front just long enough to let me extend it fully.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 5:30 PM
It would be very cool to get a video of oneself; I imagine a lot of things would make more sense if I could see what I was really doing. Here's a clip (10 MB) of vd Hoogenband and Thorpe, side by side, in case there's anything you'd like to point out about what they're doing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 5:34 PM
Does anyone have suggestions for coaching for poor swimmers who'd just like to be able to swim laps reliably. I've got a bunch of problems, but one is that I can't even swim straight.
Lots of people tell me that I should take up swimming, but I just suck at it. I had a bad experience where I got sick at summer camp, and I associate it with swimming in the cold lake on rainy days and those awful drops they put in our ears. I didn't try swimming again until college.
Has anyone tried teh Aquasphere seal mask? It looks totally geeky, but if it works...
I ask, because I never found regular goggles which fit my face properly. No matter what I did, no matter what type I tried, they always let water in.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 5:54 PM
I probably never used the Aquasphere mask, but I probably used dozens of different masks of that style back when I was a kid, and I never found one that didn't leak and fog. (The fog was usually the worse part.) I never used goggles much, but when I did I found they were worse for the leaking.
Posted by pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 6:48 PM
ogged-
the best thing for timing is in many cases the "catch-up" drill I described above (you've probably heard of it, or been taught; in any case, there's got to be a vid of it out there). It's true that without a powerful kick, you'll be doing a lot of pull, lose momentum, ... You'll do less yardage, but it will be just as good a workout. Seriously think about doing a large proportion of your workout in drills (one-arm free, opposite extended; one-arm free, opposite arm by side; catch-up; swimming fists clenched etc.). My club team (age 9 to 18) used to spend a month every fall doing almost all drills to dial technique.
BG - I had a friend who went from utter fear of water / inability to swim more than one length at a time in January to completing a two-mile open water swim (as part of an ironman triathlon) in early fall. She found a triathlon / masters swimming group that was composed mostly of people who hadn't swum much - most were already runners or bikers. The coaches are not paid much, but very good, and they are used to starting from scratch.
Another possibility is to find a local gay master's club (often an acronym with "AQUA", 'Q' for queer; at least two I've practiced with do this). I've swum with various master's clubs, and they're generally pretty laid back and accepting of people at all levels. But the expressly gay ones (NB: they're by no means exclusive of heteros, and in fact there doesn't even seem to be a strong presumption that participants are gay) are more so; plus, they tend to be smaller, and there are fewer of the super competitive swimmers, who want to train with the bigger clubs (= more sheer numbers of fast swimmers).
Finally, a lot of times the best thing to do is just go thrash, and watch people better than you for awhile and try to emulate them. The learning curve is steep. You can then find a swimmer friend or someone who just happens to be at the pool and ask for tips. People ask me stuff pretty often, and I never mind giving suggestions for a couple minutes.
Also, the snorkel may well help - it can keep you from getting disoriented while you turn. I guarantee that it won't be the dorkiest thing you see at the pool.
Scratch that. I see you were talking about a mask. That's less dorky than a snorkel, so if it works... One thing to note about goggle fit: often people think that they need goggles cover their eye sockets, and buy huge-eyed, black foam rubber things (my wife, for one, who has small eye sockets but GIANT goggles). The opposite approach is often better: smaller (perhaps foamless) goggles that fit just around the eyeball seal better.
Good luck.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 6:54 PM
Thanks, phred. I do do those drills occasionally. I'll keep working at it. Today: breathing, tomorrow, the Iranian Olympic team!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 7:06 PM
All these suggestions are good, but what you need is some out-of-the-pool activity that will really work your lungs. Like smoking.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 7:12 PM
Hey! Phred has a wife! I guess swimming isn't entirely teh gay.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 7:21 PM
After you'd swam 100 yards, don't you have another 10 meters to go before you can make a turn? Maybe its a simple conversion problem.
Posted by ogmb | Link to this comment | 11-28-05 10:24 PM
phred--Thanks on the goggle advice. I tried to find tiny swedish goggles once, but the placement of my cheekbones, eye socket and eye brow meant that that never seemed to work right. Since I'm near-sighted going goggle-free isn't a real option.
I'll definitely look into a gay master's class.
Posted by bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 4:37 AM
scmt: So whatever a married guy does isn't entirely gay? That's certainly a relief!
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 8:02 AM
So whatever a married guy does isn't entirely gay?*
*Offer may be void in Massachusetts, Vermont, Connecticut, and parts of California.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 8:06 AM
Teh gay, phred, whatever a married guy does isn't entirely teh gay.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 8:14 AM
The ghey, Tim, teh ghey.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 8:34 AM
Er, um, Teh.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 8:34 AM
The coach's first question was: "Is this guy really lean? Because buoyancy in the water is helpful. That may be a reason that kids who float go into swimming and the skinny ones run."
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 9:34 AM
try taking your face out of the water when you breathe in.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 12:05 PM
More helpful suggestion: 29 or 39?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 12:11 PM
Maybe I should take my face out of the water for a quick puff.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 12:15 PM
For sextra buoyancy, baste yourself with lard.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 12:18 PM
For sextra buoyancy, baste yourself with lard.
Yeah, why wait till you get to the Mineshaft?
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 12:37 PM
Ogged, have you considered that all your problems, swimming and otherwise, might just be because you're a little bitch?
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 2:59 PM
When you first posted this, I rolled my eyes. I didn't expect you to get useful swimming coaching from the whole sick crew around here.
But cool coaching from phred (I liked reading it, and I haven't swam since I survived (barely) a 2k swim in a triathlon 20 years ago) and an indirect link to an NCAA coach. All this plus cock jokes and snark, truly the largess of the unfogged community knows no bounds.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 11-29-05 11:00 PM
I hope people are still reading this ...
I have the same problem whether I breathe every 2,3, or 4 strokes. Even when I swam two hours/day in high school. Is breathing through your nose (in and/or out) important? Because I can't -- my sinuses are really messed up! I'm dying to have an expert opinion here.
Posted by Abe | Link to this comment | 12- 2-05 5:50 PM