Nobody should be a jerk, of course, but I'm with the philosophers on the luggage-clutching question. I hate having to tip for services I didn't ask for or want. It's just like the homeless guys at Grand Central who rush to open doors for you, then get pissed off when you don't stop to give them change.
Just to be clear, it's not the cost that I mind, it's the pretense. If I don't actually have a choice (or if I would have to be a jerk in order to exert that choice), I'd prefer that the cost of the bellhop just be built into the price of the room.
But I've expressed a similar opinion about tipping waiters in the past and been reliably informed that I only feel this way because I'm a huge asshole. This is probably a case of the same.
Tipping may be a silly convention, but it's how service people make a living. You can, of course, be alll ideologically pure and refuse to participate in a system that isn't set up the way you, in your wisdom, know it should be. But that really doesn't do the waitresses, bellhops, and maids of the world a whole lotta good.
Maid service is $1 / day. Leave it on the table in the room.
My excercise in tasteless violence aside, I agree with Tom that anything not customarily compris, should be. And I'm not even a huge asshole, to my knowledge.
Yeah, the problem with not tipping on principle is that it makes you a free rider -- you're taking advantage of the lower prices without taking part in the system that sustains them. Sure, it would be nice if tipping were optional or a reward for exceptional service, but that's not how it works in this country and acting like it is just screws over the waitstaff.
(Note: I'm talking about waiters here, not bellhops. I'm a Motel 6 man myself.)
Look, a lot of the fairness argument depends on where you're eating. If you're not tipping at a cheap greasy diner, you're a dick. If you don't tip (or under tip, or whatever) at a high-end restaurant...well, you're a dick, but less of one.
What would be great would be if there were a way to bypass the waitstaff at really high-end places (who have decent salaries anyway) and tip the kitchen staff (who don't).
Everyone would be better off if they fully internalized the fact that obtaining the PhD and generally choosing the scholarly life is an abdication of power (potestas). What one gets instead is a certain degree of authority, which works only insofar as one does not try to exercise direct power but instead acts as a Socratic midwife. Any attempt at "punishment," such as yelling at a waitress, is a betrayal of the life the scholar has chosen.
If you don't tip at an expensive restaurant, you're still as much of a dick. If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the meal. Go somewhere else, or learn to cook.
Really, SCMT? How much do waiters at high-end restaurants make?
At a restaurant where my sister may or may not have barely scrounged by working in the kitchen, in the $75K range. Of course they also have a shorter workday than the kitchen staff as well.
High end waitstaff can make pretty good of money. But only in the best cases is it enough to put them above the lower-middle class (maybe $40,000 or so). The base pay is minimum or sub-minimum wage, and not every day is a good day.
Really, SCMT? How much do waiters at high-end restaurants make?
Ben would have much better information that I do; the couple I knew claimed to do quite well (on the order of $600-$700 on weekend nights, itself equivalent to a couple hundred more b/c of tax fiddling). This was a while ago, so either (a) it was a function of the absurd economy, or (b) they're doing even better in nominal dollars.
The real question is, "Do you feel a moral obligation to over-tip unattractive waitrons?"
The top-end places in Portland are obviously lower than the ones in NYC.
I still can't believe $75 k pre-tipping for a waiter anywhere, though. My surmise is that maybe the guy was a captain, effectively with management responsibilities.
If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the meal.
My starting point. I agree entirely.
If you don't tip at an expensive restaurant, you're still as much of a dick.
If you really mean that, you're crazy. Not tipping the less-than-minimum wage waitress at the local O'Flannigans is like parking in the handicap zone. You're an asshole, and your car should be vandalized.
When Standpipe confessed to having been called an asshole, wasn't that an indication that he or she is male?
Can women be assholes? Is it sexist to say that they can't? They can't be dicks, can they? Usually if you're mad enough to call a woman an asshole, you'll call her something else, "asshole" thus becoming a euphemism.
To say that you were not a huge asshole seems to imply that you may be a small-to-medium asshole.
In ordinary contexts, perhaps, but in this case it may be being used with a bit of that howyoucallum irony.
Also, once the term "asshole" has been introduced into the conversation in relation to some gender-neutral potential behavior, it would be odd for a woman to say "Well, I'm surely not an asshole" because she was a woman; in a way that it wouldn't be odd for her to say "Well, I'm surely not a dick" because she was a woman. I conclude that "asshole" connotes but does not entail maleness.
Tipping is obligatory unless the owner is the one cutting your hair / serving you / etc.
The other thing w/r/t service folks is that waiters generally don't have things like health insurance, benefit packages, and the like. So, like strippers, in terms of cash out at the end of the night, they may do "pretty well"--but it's really a fairly short-term kind of "pretty well," for the most part. Although the average career length for a waiter is, obviously, longer than that of a stripper.
I see I should have gone out for the freshman football team when they recruited us. (It wasn't the hitting people I objected to, it was the being told to hit people. It was I gonna do that, I should get paid, or get cool guns or something.)
At any rate, I do my best to tip expansively. The better the waiter (actually, almost always a waitress, since I rarely eat at high-end restaurants, on account I hate paying that much to complain), or the more assholey the philosophers at the next table are, the more I tip.
I also have a very minor obsession with returning carts to the cart holder and picking up random trash. And putting things I've decided not to buy back where I got them from.
Oh, come on, APA-goers. Philosophers shouldn't be cheapass bastards. You're in friggin' NYC. It's already overpriced. If you can't afford the 15% tip, then go elsewhere or eat a peanut butter sandwich alone in your room and cry over your damn metaphysics. If you need to save money, then don't eat out as often. Budget. But don't screw over the $2.70 an hour person. And if you split the tab, yes, that includes the tax, and yes, people notice when you skive off your share.
Women philosophers find high tippers sexy. If you can tip, then tip high for her, too....
Actually, I don't think I've ever gone to Supercuts itself; the places I go tend to be around $9 or $10 plus tax. But yeah, it may be a little less than 20%. I just leave two singles at the station.
While it's always fun to argue about tipping (answer: unless service is truly aggressively bad, you should always tip at least slightly more than expected, or you belong in the shitty tipper database), Labs' larger point is even more important: no matter what people do for a living, they usually find some way to think of themselves as slightly more important or more deserving of deference than others, but nothing excuses anyone from basic rules of human decency and civility. Especially in interactions with service people, which are distorted by your power over them, you should always go out of your way to make sure that they can maintain their dignity. Otherwise, you're a bad person; simple as that.
38: Yes, 20% is now more or less standard, to my complete amazement. Percentages should not have to be adjusted for inflation. But, like with tipping in general, I'm a sucker and have knuckled under to the convention.
bphd, you're right in all particulars. And nobody here is saying they don't tip, or that they want service staff to be further brutalized in order to provide lower prices.
But tipping *is* stupidly non-ideal. It's not a very good way to get wait staff health insurance and only an okay way to let them earn a decent wage. And it's complicated, guilt-inducing, and generally a pain in the ass. It's offloading some of the employer's responsibilities onto the customer (and the government, since the tax issues seem to be a factor). It's better than nothing, of course. But ideally we could just make restaurants treat their employees the way other businesses have to, then sneak the practice of tipping out the side door during the resulting service economy pricing apocalypse. Not very realistic, I know.
Well, it is crappy for all those reasons. On the other hand, there are lots of service professions where "tipping" in some form or other does make a difference, service-wise. Any shop in which salespeople earn commission, for instance. But in the restaurant business, part of the problem is that most restaurants have a really thin profit margin, and I *think* labor is the biggest expense--which is why restaurants really resist bringing the hourly wage of waitstaff into compliance with, say, the hourly wage of retail staff (retail gets higher profit margins). Not only would there be a service economy pricing apocalypse, but a lot of restaurants would go broke, fast; and then where would you eat?
A case could be made that the system of tipping is flawed for those that depend on tips. Arguing against tipping, and even organizing a mass movement against it, may be doing wait staff and the like a huge favor. Besides all the obvious reasons, another is that people from, err...less glamorous parts of the US, have much less experience with tipping. So, while Bitch is adamant and confident about who to tip, and how much, I am not nearly so, and my parents would be even less. And, sad though it may be, I should think that confused, uncertain people are less likely to overtip than undertap.
Especially in interactions with service people, which are distorted by your power over them,
Really, this may be the usual case, but it doesn't have to be; the interaction is how you make it. I find that, especially if I am dining with restuarant people, that the interaction tends to be quite friendly. I see no inherent debasement in serving as a job.
Eliminating tipping has been done, for example in Scandinavia. Conservatives dislike that because it eliminates the last vestige of feudal personal service.
One big tipper my brother served would throw his very large tips on the floor, sometimes tearing $100 bills in half before doing so.
My own 48 brings to mind another possibility: I would likely clutch my bag in a fancy hotel if I didn't know who to tip, how much to tip, or how to tip. I hate awkward social situations.
Does anyone else see tipping at restaurants and haircutters and other places where there's always a service involved as different than tipping in hotels where only the more upscale ones have porters and doormen? Of course you should tip in all situations when a service is provided, but in the former cases it seems like a basic convention while in the latter the tip - and the service - underscores the inequality between customer and employee.
It's not the money involved that bothers me about the latter kind of tipping - though I can't afford to stay in places like that - it's the social ritual. I'd rather carry my own bags because I can carry my own bags, not because I don't want to pay for it. If I needed the help, then I'd ask, and tip. But I suspect that if you're comfortable with a certain status, it doesn't bother you that you're having someone provide a service that is unnecessary except as a sign of that status.
unless service is truly aggressively bad, you should always tip at least slightly more than expected
This, of course, is garbage, and sits ajoint to Iranian Male Rule No. 8: Make sure that your watch is gold and sized to dwarf your hand. Tip 20%. If the service is particularly good, tip more. If it's particularly bad, tip less. If the service is aggressively bad, not only shouldn't you tip at all, you should be shoving ashtrays and salt shakers into your pants.
So, while Bitch is adamant and confident about who to tip, and how much, I am not nearly so, and my parents would be even less.
Really all we are talking about is How Not to Be an Asshole. If you undertip because you don't know you're undertipping, then anyone who points it out rudely is an asshole. You (or your parents) will sort it out over time.
Point-of-service tipping doesn't bother me, but the NYC culture of holiday tipping does. The idea that you're supposed to seek out your hairdresser, etc. again at Christmas just to give them what is essentially a bribe to ensure prompt service in the upcoming year is a total scam.
Hey, I'm with you. I tip well and I try to tip in cash, even if I'm paying the rest of the bill with a credit card. It's just the holiday thing that gets me.
What the hell is "hirsuite," Timbot? Is that where you put your oboe? No Iranian would be caught dead in that underwear, not least because it's not massively overpriced, and doesn't have a well-known brand name on it anywhere. I shudder to think that this explains your lack of success in pursuing Iranian women.
Becks, just because he said it wouldn't work out is no reason to personal pictures of him. I was actually going to link to this, which does sort of approximate the Eurotrash Iranian style with which I'm familiar. The other was just funnier.
For over a quarter century, we have dedicated our efforts to creating a distinctive look for fashion-conscious men. We have a team of expert buyers and designers who work to acquire and create apparel and accessories that reflect runway sensibility in wearable form.
Ok, Weiner should be along any moment to tell me not to interrupt you guys.
Can't y'all just think of it as redistribution of wealth that has the potential to brighten someone's day?
That's such a red-state, private-charity way of thinking. I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
Ehh, it's fine. I just couldn't bring myself to spend $500 on underwear.
I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
But then you couldn't play "Young Lord of the Manor," as per above.
Is anyone arguing for keeping tipping as opposed to paying a fair wage? I'm not. But as long as there's tipping, then people ought to tip, and gladly, damn it.
I was just thinking about holiday tipping before I read this post. Is there some formula for holiday tipping for salon services? I've heard something like a multiple of your usual bill. Anyone know?
True-blue traditionalists, who consider themselves above fashion, patronize sanctuaries like Steed, where conservative style and impeccable quality rule.
That's such a red-state, private-charity way of thinking. I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
That's such a blue-state, standing-in-a-line-for-four-hours-waiting-for-your-pigslop-while-apparatchiks-whiz-by-in-their-limos-to-their-vacations-on-the-black-sea-with-desperate-divorcee's
way of thinking.
I'm completely fine with paying service people decent wages. I'll tip them anyways.
Thanks, ogged. Most helpful. I didn't realize that the $20 you could give the mail carrier could not be in cash. Oops. As a former waitress, I tend to overdo it anyway, so I've been guessing well. But you're right, some of those numbers do seem low.
In other news, I had been thinking of ogged's 'small flat rump' due to that other thread. Now, due to this thread, I get to think about ogged's small flat rump in Iranian undies.
94: Wow. I had no idea they even made padded underwear for men. Of course, women have had padded undies available for some time now. I understand some women have had their butts plumped up with surgical implants. I wonder if it feels weird to sit down with those. Do you feel like you're sitting on your butt or on your implants?
95: well, ogged, those good vibes must have come from some other person having good thoughts about your butt bc, well, truth be told, I don't really think of 'small flat rump' as a good thing.
Is Washington, DC sufficiently cosmopolitan that I ought to be doing this holiday tipping? I definitely never encountered this trend in Texas. But I really like the lady who cuts my hair and would be happy enough to tip her for holiday tradition's sake, but don't necessarily feel that the place I go to is so traditional that it will be expected. That, and the city is enough of a backwater that I don't know whether people really do this here.
Dunno about D.C. proper, but people aren't into it in the VA suburbs. Beyond giving the mailman some cookies, I hadn't even seen it before NYC. Since your roommate came from New York, he might have some insight into whether he's feeling the vibes in D.C.
Not included in the Poste article: my dad's habit of tipping the garbagemen at Christmas by leaving a six pack of booze on top of the trashcan with a bow on it.
Saiselgy sez sure, tip. Can I just do this at my next haircut or should I make a special trip? I assume that Hallmark offers an extensive line of comical "to a fantastic stylist!" cards.
123: only if you promise to use the grading I provide.
I donno about all of this concern over your relationship with your hairdresser, Armsmasher. It seems a bit un-smasherly. As robust and virile young men, aren't we supposed to try to foster the illusion that our hair length is maintained through accidental shearing during our constant feats of derring-do (e.g. fighting bears)?
Marilyn Manson asked me where the bathroom was once at a club in New Orleans. He looked like he had just stumbled out of a Dungeons and Dragons game. Not badass at all IRL.
A bit of advice: before the bears get your food and/or garbage, they can be deterred by loud noises and thrown rocks. But if they've already got into your stuff, it's better to assume that they will defend it than to try to drive them away.
This advice may apply only to black bears. Grizzlies are notoriously cuddly and may be domesticated through the use of picnic baskets.
no, the bear would consistently kill the fucking shit out of you. Wait, if you critically wound the bear while it's killing the fucking shit out of you, so it dies afterwards, do you "win"? In that case, go for it.
I think this is another in the "in fact there are stupid questions" category.
When my mom was in college, she once drove home across the country with her boyfriend (who refused to take interstates on principle) and his Fiat broke down in Latrobe. Actually on the outskirts of Latrobe, in some sort of Italian community -- lots of Italian groceries, but no Italian car parts. They were stuck there for several days while the local garage ordered parts for the Fiat. She often mentions this when Rolling Rock commercials come on.
142: No, really. First Tom and Smasher worry about their relationship with their hairdressers and decide that their cover story is that they've been in vigorous struggles with bears. Then you bring up the attempt to subdue a bear with a six to eight inch knife. Meanwhile Silvana is moping around complaining of boredom and all the guys ignore her (except for chivalric me). Then Michael says that he can't sleep for thinking about bears. Well, aren't we all in favor of healthy releases for a young man's urges?
Walking along today, I passed two drunk college-aged guys who were charging at each other, one playing "running back," the other, "linebacker." The drunk "running back" asked me to be his "blocking back," but I said "no."
I was making a joke, see, by half–taking literally your innuendo. Although now that I think of it, I'm not sure if my wetstone is abrasive enough to inflict real pain on (granted, quite sensitive) skin. I'm in no hurry to find out, mind.
I hear you're supposed to hit metal against metal to get rid of animals—it's not a sort of sound they're used to, or some such.
140, my ex girlfriend was living in New Orleans and buying hurricane supplies (not a devastation-level event, back then). She saw Trent Reznor in the grocery store amassing a cart-sized stockpile of Cheetohs. Head like a hole—fingers like cheesy-poofs.
155, I don't want to hear about your wet stone, but I figured that for all I knew sharpening certain knives could in fact be a bad idea. You're much more up on that kind of fancy kitchen stuff than I am, having no doubt paid more than 25¢ for a knife at some time in your life. Anyway, I was really just looking for an excuse to post that explanation.
Michael, yeah the rest of my comment wasn't so serious, so I can see why it all might have seemed wrong. Although now that I think about it, it's probably best not to mess with bears at all. I haven't been backpacking in almost ten years, but I hear that everyone is supposed to carry special containers now. Before, you had to hang your food, but not everyone did it, leading to rock throwing and yelling.
I've seen, or rather heard, yelling in the middle of the night as other campers protected their food, but never chased off bears myself.
I've actually been in the second situation - where the bears already have your stuff - and yelled and thrown things. They backed off - although not until after one had charged within a few feet of my dad before turning around - but didn't leave the area. In the darkness we could actually see our white trash bag move through the trees but we couldn't really make out the bears' shapes in the distance. We could also still hear them. The end result was that we left them with our trash, packed up our stuff to keep them from going through it, and hiked a mile away to a more established campsite. We came back in the morning to clean up the mess they'd left.
I can't believe no one in that MeFi thread brought up the important data point that Anthony Hopkins killed a bear in The Edge. Someone in the thread proposes doing what he did (sharpen wood into spears), but no one mentions that we have good evidence that an old man can successfully use this strategy.
No, I don't have trouble differentiating reality and fiction, why do you ask?
The folkstory that "they" use to teach kids about grizzlies up in the Yukon involves a brave Native Canadian kid standing on a rock with his arms in the air screaming at the top of his lungs. My grandad once scared a bear out of his kitchen by running at it, shouting, and throwing pans (the bear was between him and the exit).
The general advice: don't shoot unless you're confident you can kill it, make noise, make yourself look big, and maybe it'll wander off. A knife-fight? The young man is dead, dead, dead.
I'm not really convinced by the throwing-rocks advice. Maybe throw the rocks into the bushes behind the bear, but at the bear? Better you than me.
I waited around for you guys to do something interesting, but eventually made high to the Law Review office where it was explained to me that it is a mistake to think that the McRib has anything to do with ribs, just as it would be a mistake to assume that cattle has anything to do with cats. Weiner, your chivalry was appreciated, insofar as I appreciate chivalry, which is to say less than most.
I do, indeed, have myself a dude (though I don't know how ogged knows this), but that doesn't mean I shan't ask for entertainment herein. And yes, he's better than Michael, at least insofar as spelling is concerned. Beyond that, I couldn't really say.
SILVANA: I do, indeed, have myself a dude (though I don't know how ogged knows this), but that doesn't mean I shan't ask for entertainment herein. [She gestures towards her crotch] And yes, he's better than Michael, at least insofar as spelling is concerned. Beyond that, I couldn't really say—he's waiting until marriage.
Well, one can't have a NCBC(tm) on ogged, because he only likes, what is it? Swedes replete with excellence who manage to be as un-monkey-resembling as it is possible to be while still being human.
I was about to say "I know," but then I suspected that you might not make such a direct statement, and then I got mired in the Iranian-Persian distinction. Then, confusion.
Ugh, well, apparently the metal prog center and goth center of my brain are more closely situated than for most. It's been a very long time since I've heard DT. Didn't mean to inaccurately conflate them. But really, don't care.
172: Well, it wasn't very high-quality chivalry. cf.
I think your dudedness was apparent from some of the pictures on your blog--but of course, that never stops the truly chivalrous. (Um, I was thinking of making a semi-serious point about something there, but fuck it.)
The word I'm currently looking for is "fuck-to-obotic," as in what that comment was. (Sorry, Tim; I wouldn't have snarked on it, but when I thought of "fuck-to-obotic" I had to share. The condition is "fuck-to-obosis.")
One piece of information I remember from Boy Scouts is that you should not use a Bowie knife with a fish scaler against a bear. The serrations are likely to get caught on bone, getting the knife stuck before you can kill the thing.
Also: in the event of a nuclear explosion, don't stand by the window (that's not from the BSA, it's just common sense).
Please note that what Weiner calls "chivalry," is actually W-chivalry, otherwise known as "horndogging." When he exhorts the rest of us to be chivalrous, he wants us to become his deputy horndogs.
Silvana, never date an Arab. Aren't you Arab? Your father knows what he's talking about, then.
I'm pretty sure my list of who other people shouldn't date is longer than my list of who I won't date.
201: Yes, I am Arab. Well, my father is, anyway. So yeah, he knows what he's talking about. And don't worry, ogged, I have taken the advice to heart, at least since the Palestinian guy I dated in the 10th grade.
I don't know what my dad's reason was for saying that, SCMT, but from my opinion most Arab men are sexist bastards, and the ones who aren't still are, in that they have deeply traditional ideas about how women and men are supposed to behave both in and out of relationships.
wants us to become his deputy horndogs
This brings an image to mind that is deeply, deepply funny. It involves Weiner as hotdog (yes, I went there) in a uniform, possibly sherriff's.
I just think the advice is funny as most people I know who are from somewhere else (as in, their parents are; I would say first-generation immigrant although I guess I'm not really an immigrant, either) want their kids to marry someone of that same nationality. My dad has the opposite advice.
I guess it makes sense - he didn't marry an Egyptian, either.
There's a wonderful novel, "Arabian Jazz" by Diana Abu-Jabar, about Arabs not marrying Arabs. There's more to it than that, but there's definitely that.
The sidebar of the link SB provided is why the mainstream porn industry creeps me the fuck out. It's like a fucking grocery store. Hair color, bust size, ethnicity categorization.
Aw, that's just because it's like a bad grocery store. If the categories were things like "not doing it just because they're mad at daddy" or "dirty, dirty women," or "seem chaste, for a while" then it would be pretty cool.
Back to tipping. People keep saying there's no need to tip in a Motel 6, but there is: THE MAID CLEANS YOUR ROOM. $1/day, people. It won't break you.
Hairdressers, mail carriers, etc., I personally think a little silly. Then again, I don't currently have a regular person who cuts my hair. But in the past I have, and liked them very much, and so then there's the possibility of a token gift-type thing or, why not? an extra 5% or so on top of the regular tip for the December cut.
One person who is worth tipping is the newspaper carrier, whether kid or adult. Even the adults get paid badly: they're classified as "independent contractors" and paid, literally, pennies on the paper. A few extra bucks is good present-buying money for these folks, who really are the working poor.
There should really be public service announcements about this stuff. I am vigilant about tipping, but I have never done the $1/day thing. I shall start. Not like I stay in hotels that often, but still.
Is it just me, or is there something weird going on at Starbucks? Do they even have a tip jar? Is there some sort of corporate anti-tip-jar policy? Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there (as opposed to independent coffee shops, where you're pretty much a total dick if you don't tip).
Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there
Really? I thought all Starbucks had tip jars (unless if this is a recent thing-- I haven't been in one in a few months). That was one of the things that bugged me when I used to work in a Barnes & Noble Starbucks, we weren't allowed to have a tip jar while the regular Starbucks did.
Back to tipping. People keep saying there's no need to tip in a Motel 6, but there is: THE MAID CLEANS YOUR ROOM. $1/day, people. It won't break you.
I understand the need for this, but it seems sort of tricky to tip someone who you may not ever see. Shouldn't I also be tipping the hotel's dishwashers, landscapers, pool cleaners, maintenance personnel and other poorly paid, generally unseen employees?
So creepy. Maybe you really shouldn't ever date Iranians.
Do you tip for counter service?
Are you people kidding me? Do you tip at the McDonald's drive through window? Because I really want to see the principled argument for distinguishing between your barrista and your window server.
Well, Tom, I didn't say the rules were comprehsnive. The point of the maid is that you're not supposed to see her, of course. Leave the $2-$3 on the bedside table.
I am told by my boyfriend the restaurateur that you don't tip for take-away *unless* you go there fairly regularly, in which case it's worth it, again, as a bizarrely counter-intuitive mark that your relationship with the service provider is no longer anonymous and approaches some kind of semi-"friendly" acquaintanceship.
I *really* don't get the tip-for-counter-service thing. There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1. Yeah yeah, redistribution of wealth is good, poor wages, all that -- but how about some parity for other tippable employees?
And SCMT's point about fast food strikes me as really good. I throw a buck into the pot at my favorite takeout rotisserie chicken place every now and then, but only because I know and like the staff.
The person at the McDonald's drive-thru window didn't make your cheeseburger.
Maybe the principled argument is that people generally tip the barristas, and if one knows this and still can't throw in 50 cents, that makes one a cheap bastard?
I guess that's not principled, but that seems to be the way tipping conventions generally work.
I really want to see the principled argument for distinguishing between your barrista and your window server
It's not the kind of service, but the expected means of income--the McD's employees take the job knowing that they'll get their money from the company, and nothing else. The barristas expect tips. Simple as that. It doesn't always make sense, but as long as that's the system, you don't get to opt out by not paying without screwing someone over, or, at least, seeming like a dick.
Is it just me, or is there something weird going on at Starbucks? Do they even have a tip jar? Is there some sort of corporate anti-tip-jar policy? Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there (as opposed to independent coffee shops, where you're pretty much a total dick if you don't tip).
I may be a dick (although this doesn't come up much because I don't buy a lot of coffee in coffee shops) but I don't tip for counter service as a matter of policy. I hate the tipping system -- I tip where I have to (restaurants, taxis, hotels) because it would be unjust to the people whose compensation is based on tipping if I didn't, but I really don't want to expand the areas where tipping is conventional/necessary.
I never heard of tipping for counter-service until the 90's wave of Starbucksesque coffee shops took off, and they started showing up with tip jars. I don't believe enough people tip that it gets calculated as a significant part of baristas' salaries, and I'd like to keep it that way. (Actually, I want a social revolution which, among other things, eliminates tipping. Raise the goddam price and pay a living wage, why can't you?)
That's because I don't think they have a tip jar at the Starbucks! What's more, said person tends to pay with a credit card, on which there is no tip line.
This contributes to the Starbucks anti-tip-jar corporate policy theory.
There's not enough money in independent coffeehouses for owners to pay their employees compelling wages and also manage a profitable company, so if you like indie coffeehouses, you ought to tip the baristas. For a cup of drip, for water, for playing the Stooges song you like.
Starbucks doesn't seem to encourage tipping, but then they ay their employees decently and offer health care to a lot of them, so I think the interest in tipping in Starbucks should be (or can be) for exceptional service or difficult orders.
There's not enough money in independent coffeehouses for owners to pay their employees compelling wages and also manage a profitable company, so if you like indie coffeehouses, you ought to tip the baristas.
Does this make sense? If customers will pay $2 and tip $.50 on average for a cup of coffee, then they'll (on average) pay $2.50 for the coffee if they don't have to tip. It's the same amount of money coming out of the customers' pockets, which should be able to fund the same amount of compensation to the employees.
There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1.
I've always thought that too, but I've been told on more than one occasion that $1/drink minimum is what is expected, and to do otherwise is to engage in dick-like behavior. Mixed drinks I understand are a different story, but can I safely tip just a buck or two for a whole round of drinks (beer bottles), for example?
I don't believe enough people tip that it gets calculated as a significant part of baristas' salaries
I'd say that this is wrong for, well, probably close to every barista working in America. For the nation of student and struggling artist barista, even paltry tipping is crucial.
Totally random question – One of the girls I went to school with did the proverbial "paid her way through college by being a stripper"-thing and told us all about how the patron is supposed to tip up front for services in a strip club (before a private dance, not after). That's such an anomaly – are there any other instances that exist where you're expected to tip before the service is rendered? I can't think of one.
I think this is the crux of the coffeeshop tipping question. I used to think that it was rude, if say, you had 20 cents in change, to just throw that into the tip jar, but after talking to several friends who worked in coffeeshops, where they explained to me that they serve so many customers that that kind of thing is really vital. My one friend's greatest ire was against people who would take a dime in change and put it painstakingly into their coin wallet.
I think LB's right. It's just stupid feudal tradition with a hint of tax evasion, as noted above.
Matt F: I draw the line at the $1/drink custom, too, although I know it's considered standard. $1 for the round, unless there are complicated or multiple mixed drinks involved. If that makes me a dick, so be it. My friends who've tended bar did well enough for themselves (in some cases despite massive incompetence) that I don't feel at all bad about this.
Becks: the maid service example seems to be one example of pre-pay tipping. When I tip for counter service I end up doing it before the goods are delivered, too. Also: ushers.
This is on the fine line between tipping and bribery, but slipping the maitre d' a twenty for a good table?
I'd say that this is wrong for, well, probably close to every barista working in America. For the nation of student and struggling artist barista, even paltry tipping is crucial
Well, maybe I've missed my chance to hold back a pernicious social trend, and am simply a dick, but when did this change? I swear no one ever tipped for counter service of a cup of coffee before the current wave of Starbucksy coffee shops -- say, the early mid-90s. Have coffee shop wages dropped since then?
Only of the conventional "holiday tipping" situations applies to me: the super. (Well, and maybe the mail carrier, but I'm not about to go there.) My super for the past six years has pretty much been a dick to me, and while I would like to think that if I give him a holiday tip, he'd suddenly be nice and replace that broken shower curtain rod, I don't even know how I'd go about sidling up to him and handing him an envelope of cash. Socially awkward indeed.
How do those of you who perform holiday tipping go about it?
A nice Christmas (other holiday card) with cash in it. If he lives in the building, under his door is fine -- otherwise, hand it to him with a big smile and a "Merry Christmas (or holiday of your choice)". Any super worth his salt will be unusually visible for the next month, to facilitate such card giving.
A question: am I a dick for running a bar tab on a credit card, then tipping 15-20% on the receipt at the end of the night? It seems justifiable to me based on the percentage, but unquestionably ends up costing much less money than the $1/drink standard.
There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1.
At the bar that I've spent the most time at, the bartenders were busy enough that it took a lot of coordination and effort just to get to your order and keep track of it. Think the noodle woman trying to stay on top of the orders in Tampopo, if that means anything to anybody.
246 - My building staff sends each resident a "it's been a pleasure to serve you this year" holiday card with each member of the building staff's full name spelled out as the signature and then places a box on the front desk for tip envelopes. Not subtle, but removes any of the social awkwardness.
Nobody should be a jerk, of course, but I'm with the philosophers on the luggage-clutching question. I hate having to tip for services I didn't ask for or want. It's just like the homeless guys at Grand Central who rush to open doors for you, then get pissed off when you don't stop to give them change.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:20 PM
I usually tip bellhops with lead, by shooting them. This has a satisfying bird-to-stone ratio.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:24 PM
Motel Six doesn't have bellhops, but philosophers want only the best. But without bellhops.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:28 PM
Emerson makes a good point.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:32 PM
Just to be clear, it's not the cost that I mind, it's the pretense. If I don't actually have a choice (or if I would have to be a jerk in order to exert that choice), I'd prefer that the cost of the bellhop just be built into the price of the room.
But I've expressed a similar opinion about tipping waiters in the past and been reliably informed that I only feel this way because I'm a huge asshole. This is probably a case of the same.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:35 PM
Actually, I think you're right about tipping. It's a silly convention.
You could dine only at Per Se if you wanted to avoid tipping.
Apparently when the practice was first becoming common in America it was criticized as anti-democratic.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:41 PM
Sweden has a no-tipping economy, and this is ideal. We have remnants of feudalism in our hotels, and we can't really change it unilaterally.
My father refused to tip on principle, and on that particular point, he was an asshole.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:42 PM
Yes droit de sejour really has to go.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:44 PM
Or the French Laundry. Maybe all Keller's restaurants are like that.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:45 PM
Tipping may be a silly convention, but it's how service people make a living. You can, of course, be alll ideologically pure and refuse to participate in a system that isn't set up the way you, in your wisdom, know it should be. But that really doesn't do the waitresses, bellhops, and maids of the world a whole lotta good.
Maid service is $1 / day. Leave it on the table in the room.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:47 PM
My excercise in tasteless violence aside, I agree with Tom that anything not customarily compris, should be. And I'm not even a huge asshole, to my knowledge.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:47 PM
Tipping may be a silly convention, but it's how service people make a living.
I didn't say I don't tip.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:47 PM
Yeah, the problem with not tipping on principle is that it makes you a free rider -- you're taking advantage of the lower prices without taking part in the system that sustains them. Sure, it would be nice if tipping were optional or a reward for exceptional service, but that's not how it works in this country and acting like it is just screws over the waitstaff.
(Note: I'm talking about waiters here, not bellhops. I'm a Motel 6 man myself.)
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:49 PM
Look, a lot of the fairness argument depends on where you're eating. If you're not tipping at a cheap greasy diner, you're a dick. If you don't tip (or under tip, or whatever) at a high-end restaurant...well, you're a dick, but less of one.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:51 PM
I wonder if there is a number x, such that if x people refused to tip, the convention of tipping would be on its way out?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:52 PM
What would be great would be if there were a way to bypass the waitstaff at really high-end places (who have decent salaries anyway) and tip the kitchen staff (who don't).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:53 PM
Really, SCMT? How much do waiters at high-end restaurants make?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:54 PM
Everyone would be better off if they fully internalized the fact that obtaining the PhD and generally choosing the scholarly life is an abdication of power (potestas). What one gets instead is a certain degree of authority, which works only insofar as one does not try to exercise direct power but instead acts as a Socratic midwife. Any attempt at "punishment," such as yelling at a waitress, is a betrayal of the life the scholar has chosen.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:54 PM
If you don't tip at an expensive restaurant, you're still as much of a dick. If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the meal. Go somewhere else, or learn to cook.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:56 PM
Really, SCMT? How much do waiters at high-end restaurants make?
At a restaurant where my sister may or may not have barely scrounged by working in the kitchen, in the $75K range. Of course they also have a shorter workday than the kitchen staff as well.
potestatem
egestatem
dissolvit ut glaciem
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:58 PM
High end waitstaff can make pretty good of money. But only in the best cases is it enough to put them above the lower-middle class (maybe $40,000 or so). The base pay is minimum or sub-minimum wage, and not every day is a good day.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 4:58 PM
Yes, and a big chunk of that "pretty good money" is . . . . tips.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:00 PM
The figure I cited was pre-tip.
Not, as I said, that I think one shouldn't tip, given that this is the unfortunate system in place.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:01 PM
Really, SCMT? How much do waiters at high-end restaurants make?
Ben would have much better information that I do; the couple I knew claimed to do quite well (on the order of $600-$700 on weekend nights, itself equivalent to a couple hundred more b/c of tax fiddling). This was a while ago, so either (a) it was a function of the absurd economy, or (b) they're doing even better in nominal dollars.
The real question is, "Do you feel a moral obligation to over-tip unattractive waitrons?"
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:03 PM
I overtip all waitrons, attractive or no.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:09 PM
The top-end places in Portland are obviously lower than the ones in NYC.
I still can't believe $75 k pre-tipping for a waiter anywhere, though. My surmise is that maybe the guy was a captain, effectively with management responsibilities.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:09 PM
What about tipping at places like Supercuts?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:10 PM
If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford the meal.
My starting point. I agree entirely.
If you don't tip at an expensive restaurant, you're still as much of a dick.
If you really mean that, you're crazy. Not tipping the less-than-minimum wage waitress at the local O'Flannigans is like parking in the handicap zone. You're an asshole, and your car should be vandalized.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:11 PM
When Standpipe confessed to having been called an asshole, wasn't that an indication that he or she is male?
Can women be assholes? Is it sexist to say that they can't? They can't be dicks, can they? Usually if you're mad enough to call a woman an asshole, you'll call her something else, "asshole" thus becoming a euphemism.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:16 PM
In low-end places, the customary tip is also lower.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:17 PM
Isn't what SB said "And I'm not even a huge asshole, to my knowledge."? Where's the confession?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:18 PM
Women can indeed be assholes. I, for instance, am one.
But I tip.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:18 PM
To say that you were not a huge asshole seems to imply that you may be a small-to-medium asshole.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:26 PM
No one named "silvana" could be an asshole!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:27 PM
To say that you were not a huge asshole seems to imply that you may be a small-to-medium asshole.
Pah. Jesuitry.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:28 PM
What about tipping at places like Supercuts?
I think I do about 20% ($2 on a $10 cut). It's definitely required.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:33 PM
Tipping for haircuts is obligatory, unless your friends or family are cutting your hair.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:35 PM
20% tipping is the standard now, right? (It hasn't moved up, again, on me, has it?)
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:37 PM
To say that you were not a huge asshole seems to imply that you may be a small-to-medium asshole.
In ordinary contexts, perhaps, but in this case it may be being used with a bit of that howyoucallum irony.
Also, once the term "asshole" has been introduced into the conversation in relation to some gender-neutral potential behavior, it would be odd for a woman to say "Well, I'm surely not an asshole" because she was a woman; in a way that it wouldn't be odd for her to say "Well, I'm surely not a dick" because she was a woman. I conclude that "asshole" connotes but does not entail maleness.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:44 PM
My understanding has been $2 at Supercuts, but I've never been to one charging less than $12 so the percent is a little lower than 20.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:47 PM
Tipping is obligatory unless the owner is the one cutting your hair / serving you / etc.
The other thing w/r/t service folks is that waiters generally don't have things like health insurance, benefit packages, and the like. So, like strippers, in terms of cash out at the end of the night, they may do "pretty well"--but it's really a fairly short-term kind of "pretty well," for the most part. Although the average career length for a waiter is, obviously, longer than that of a stripper.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 5:56 PM
I see I should have gone out for the freshman football team when they recruited us. (It wasn't the hitting people I objected to, it was the being told to hit people. It was I gonna do that, I should get paid, or get cool guns or something.)
At any rate, I do my best to tip expansively. The better the waiter (actually, almost always a waitress, since I rarely eat at high-end restaurants, on account I hate paying that much to complain), or the more assholey the philosophers at the next table are, the more I tip.
I also have a very minor obsession with returning carts to the cart holder and picking up random trash. And putting things I've decided not to buy back where I got them from.
ash
['Somebody has to do it.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:33 PM
Oh, come on, APA-goers. Philosophers shouldn't be cheapass bastards. You're in friggin' NYC. It's already overpriced. If you can't afford the 15% tip, then go elsewhere or eat a peanut butter sandwich alone in your room and cry over your damn metaphysics. If you need to save money, then don't eat out as often. Budget. But don't screw over the $2.70 an hour person. And if you split the tab, yes, that includes the tax, and yes, people notice when you skive off your share.
Women philosophers find high tippers sexy. If you can tip, then tip high for her, too....
('Bastards' is unisex.)
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:38 PM
Actually, I don't think I've ever gone to Supercuts itself; the places I go tend to be around $9 or $10 plus tax. But yeah, it may be a little less than 20%. I just leave two singles at the station.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:42 PM
While it's always fun to argue about tipping (answer: unless service is truly aggressively bad, you should always tip at least slightly more than expected, or you belong in the shitty tipper database), Labs' larger point is even more important: no matter what people do for a living, they usually find some way to think of themselves as slightly more important or more deserving of deference than others, but nothing excuses anyone from basic rules of human decency and civility. Especially in interactions with service people, which are distorted by your power over them, you should always go out of your way to make sure that they can maintain their dignity. Otherwise, you're a bad person; simple as that.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:47 PM
38: Yes, 20% is now more or less standard, to my complete amazement. Percentages should not have to be adjusted for inflation. But, like with tipping in general, I'm a sucker and have knuckled under to the convention.
bphd, you're right in all particulars. And nobody here is saying they don't tip, or that they want service staff to be further brutalized in order to provide lower prices.
But tipping *is* stupidly non-ideal. It's not a very good way to get wait staff health insurance and only an okay way to let them earn a decent wage. And it's complicated, guilt-inducing, and generally a pain in the ass. It's offloading some of the employer's responsibilities onto the customer (and the government, since the tax issues seem to be a factor). It's better than nothing, of course. But ideally we could just make restaurants treat their employees the way other businesses have to, then sneak the practice of tipping out the side door during the resulting service economy pricing apocalypse. Not very realistic, I know.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:49 PM
Well, it is crappy for all those reasons. On the other hand, there are lots of service professions where "tipping" in some form or other does make a difference, service-wise. Any shop in which salespeople earn commission, for instance. But in the restaurant business, part of the problem is that most restaurants have a really thin profit margin, and I *think* labor is the biggest expense--which is why restaurants really resist bringing the hourly wage of waitstaff into compliance with, say, the hourly wage of retail staff (retail gets higher profit margins). Not only would there be a service economy pricing apocalypse, but a lot of restaurants would go broke, fast; and then where would you eat?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 6:59 PM
A case could be made that the system of tipping is flawed for those that depend on tips. Arguing against tipping, and even organizing a mass movement against it, may be doing wait staff and the like a huge favor. Besides all the obvious reasons, another is that people from, err...less glamorous parts of the US, have much less experience with tipping. So, while Bitch is adamant and confident about who to tip, and how much, I am not nearly so, and my parents would be even less. And, sad though it may be, I should think that confused, uncertain people are less likely to overtip than undertap.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:00 PM
Especially in interactions with service people, which are distorted by your power over them,
Really, this may be the usual case, but it doesn't have to be; the interaction is how you make it. I find that, especially if I am dining with restuarant people, that the interaction tends to be quite friendly. I see no inherent debasement in serving as a job.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:03 PM
47: Why wouldn't they just raise prices?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:05 PM
Eliminating tipping has been done, for example in Scandinavia. Conservatives dislike that because it eliminates the last vestige of feudal personal service.
One big tipper my brother served would throw his very large tips on the floor, sometimes tearing $100 bills in half before doing so.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:06 PM
My own 48 brings to mind another possibility: I would likely clutch my bag in a fancy hotel if I didn't know who to tip, how much to tip, or how to tip. I hate awkward social situations.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:09 PM
Does anyone else see tipping at restaurants and haircutters and other places where there's always a service involved as different than tipping in hotels where only the more upscale ones have porters and doormen? Of course you should tip in all situations when a service is provided, but in the former cases it seems like a basic convention while in the latter the tip - and the service - underscores the inequality between customer and employee.
It's not the money involved that bothers me about the latter kind of tipping - though I can't afford to stay in places like that - it's the social ritual. I'd rather carry my own bags because I can carry my own bags, not because I don't want to pay for it. If I needed the help, then I'd ask, and tip. But I suspect that if you're comfortable with a certain status, it doesn't bother you that you're having someone provide a service that is unnecessary except as a sign of that status.
Or maybe I'm an ass.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:11 PM
Ok, Michael's 52 explains my 53 much more concisely.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:12 PM
unless service is truly aggressively bad, you should always tip at least slightly more than expected
This, of course, is garbage, and sits ajoint to Iranian Male Rule No. 8: Make sure that your watch is gold and sized to dwarf your hand. Tip 20%. If the service is particularly good, tip more. If it's particularly bad, tip less. If the service is aggressively bad, not only shouldn't you tip at all, you should be shoving ashtrays and salt shakers into your pants.
So, while Bitch is adamant and confident about who to tip, and how much, I am not nearly so, and my parents would be even less.
Really all we are talking about is How Not to Be an Asshole. If you undertip because you don't know you're undertipping, then anyone who points it out rudely is an asshole. You (or your parents) will sort it out over time.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:21 PM
I don't wear a watch, you cheap bastard.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:23 PM
Point-of-service tipping doesn't bother me, but the NYC culture of holiday tipping does. The idea that you're supposed to seek out your hairdresser, etc. again at Christmas just to give them what is essentially a bribe to ensure prompt service in the upcoming year is a total scam.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:24 PM
Can't y'all just think of it as redistribution of wealth that has the potential to brighten someone's day?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:27 PM
I don't wear a watch, you cheap bastard.
Next you'll claim that, rather than roll in the black Beemer, you have no car at all. I know exactly your style, you hirsuite bastard.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:38 PM
Agreeing with 55 on the grounds that universalizing the behavior in 45 would lead to constanly escalating tip percentages.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:39 PM
Hey, I'm with you. I tip well and I try to tip in cash, even if I'm paying the rest of the bill with a credit card. It's just the holiday thing that gets me.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:40 PM
Too late, Becks. It'll never work out. I'll tell Weiner.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:42 PM
57: Man am I learning things.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:42 PM
He'll be crushed.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:43 PM
I hate to see a crushed Weiner.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:43 PM
Was that too cheap?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:44 PM
What the hell is "hirsuite," Timbot? Is that where you put your oboe? No Iranian would be caught dead in that underwear, not least because it's not massively overpriced, and doesn't have a well-known brand name on it anywhere. I shudder to think that this explains your lack of success in pursuing Iranian women.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:45 PM
This underwear is even worse.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:46 PM
Wow.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:50 PM
Becks, just because he said it wouldn't work out is no reason to personal pictures of him. I was actually going to link to this, which does sort of approximate the Eurotrash Iranian style with which I'm familiar. The other was just funnier.
I meant "hirsute," dick.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:54 PM
From their about page:
Ok, Weiner should be along any moment to tell me not to interrupt you guys.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:54 PM
Here's a look for you to wear to the pool. (God, that site is just so wrong.)
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:55 PM
62: That's what they always say halfway through the movie!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:55 PM
Iranian underwear?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:56 PM
Adventures of an International Male
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 7:56 PM
Fuck, now that I think about it, my underwear is totally Iranian guy's underwear. God damn it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:00 PM
Can't y'all just think of it as redistribution of wealth that has the potential to brighten someone's day?
That's such a red-state, private-charity way of thinking. I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:00 PM
You can take the boy out of Iran....
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:02 PM
I'm ashamed, don't rub it in.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:03 PM
Great underwear, though.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:03 PM
Ehh, it's fine. I just couldn't bring myself to spend $500 on underwear.
I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
But then you couldn't play "Young Lord of the Manor," as per above.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:08 PM
play "Young Lord of the Manor,"
Is anyone arguing for keeping tipping as opposed to paying a fair wage? I'm not. But as long as there's tipping, then people ought to tip, and gladly, damn it.
Now fetch my steed, you cheap bastard.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:11 PM
Sorry, "saddle my steed" would have been much better. I blame poor people.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:14 PM
I was just thinking about holiday tipping before I read this post. Is there some formula for holiday tipping for salon services? I've heard something like a multiple of your usual bill. Anyone know?
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:14 PM
Emily Post on holiday tipping.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:17 PM
But those numbers seem really low to me. More if you're in a big city, I'd say.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:17 PM
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:20 PM
my underwear
Yea verily, a sitzpinkler.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:21 PM
The idea of giving your hairdresser a Christmas gift seems just bizarre. I don't get it a'tall.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:22 PM
Yeah, I would say in a big city, it's the high end of her ranges or a bit more.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:23 PM
That's such a red-state, private-charity way of thinking. I'd rather establish a massive program of government intervention that subtracts sufficient funds from my paycheck to fulfill my obligation for compassion toward my fellow man.
That's such a blue-state, standing-in-a-line-for-four-hours-waiting-for-your-pigslop-while-apparatchiks-whiz-by-in-their-limos-to-their-vacations-on-the-black-sea-with-desperate-divorcee's
way of thinking.
I'm completely fine with paying service people decent wages. I'll tip them anyways.
ash
['Have a nice day.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:23 PM
Continuing 88: NTTAWWT.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:24 PM
Thanks, ogged. Most helpful. I didn't realize that the $20 you could give the mail carrier could not be in cash. Oops. As a former waitress, I tend to overdo it anyway, so I've been guessing well. But you're right, some of those numbers do seem low.
In other news, I had been thinking of ogged's 'small flat rump' due to that other thread. Now, due to this thread, I get to think about ogged's small flat rump in Iranian undies.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:25 PM
93 - There's always these.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:26 PM
Put down the International Male site, Becks.
Hey annie, there was a little extra pep in my step today; I guess I'm feeling all that attention.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:28 PM
But Bridgeplate, when I stand at a urinal, I tend to pull down, rather than across, even when I'm wearing fly-having underwear? You use the slit?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:29 PM
Can't. Look. Away. Just. So. Awful.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:29 PM
Michael: Besides all the obvious reasons, another is that people from, err...less glamorous parts of the US, have much less experience with tipping.
1. When in Rome, shoot roman candles.
2. Saying 'please' and 'thank you' (or "No thank you, I'm fine") never hurt anybody.
3. The best kind of applause is folding and green.
If the bellhop is actually working to help you, you should help him. If he's just trying to scam some cash, spare change comes in handy.
ash
['Don't worry about it overmuch.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:31 PM
I'm digging the drawing of the "back view" on this page.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:33 PM
94: Wow. I had no idea they even made padded underwear for men. Of course, women have had padded undies available for some time now. I understand some women have had their butts plumped up with surgical implants. I wonder if it feels weird to sit down with those. Do you feel like you're sitting on your butt or on your implants?
95: well, ogged, those good vibes must have come from some other person having good thoughts about your butt bc, well, truth be told, I don't really think of 'small flat rump' as a good thing.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:34 PM
They don't have to be good thoughts, annie, I just like the attention.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:36 PM
99 - Those would go great with your mesh board shorts. You should totally wear them to the gay master's club. That will get you attention.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:37 PM
97: Yes, the underwear are so stunning it's hard to look away. But the bodies are worth the horror of the fashions.
That 'back view' is great.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:38 PM
OMG! I was #100! I'm so honored! I've never been #100 before! *sniff*
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:40 PM
to the gay master's club. That will get you attention
Won't I just blend into the crowd? I need something like this, but for men.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:43 PM
For Becks. Who loves you, baby?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:53 PM
106 - Nobody, if I'm wearing one of those.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:54 PM
Those aren't modest, they don't even cover the arms. Hell, those would land you in jail in Iran.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 8:59 PM
Hey, Unf's in town, and he's coming over. I guess it's ok that I don't rate advance warning.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:04 PM
Will he post?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:06 PM
He called at this time of night with no warning to ask if he could come over? Did he sound drunk and say he was thinking of you?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:07 PM
Not bloody likely. He'll probably say, "What was my password again?" (Yes, this has happened.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:08 PM
He called a few hours ago to say that he's in town and would I mind if he and his lady stopped by.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:09 PM
Darn. It was far more amusing to think he started clicking through the International Male catalog and decided to ring you up for a booty call.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:11 PM
I think I hear the pitter patter of little feet now...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:13 PM
Is Washington, DC sufficiently cosmopolitan that I ought to be doing this holiday tipping? I definitely never encountered this trend in Texas. But I really like the lady who cuts my hair and would be happy enough to tip her for holiday tradition's sake, but don't necessarily feel that the place I go to is so traditional that it will be expected. That, and the city is enough of a backwater that I don't know whether people really do this here.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:22 PM
one isn't supposed to, like, give money to one's landlord or anything, is one?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:29 PM
Dunno about D.C. proper, but people aren't into it in the VA suburbs. Beyond giving the mailman some cookies, I hadn't even seen it before NYC. Since your roommate came from New York, he might have some insight into whether he's feeling the vibes in D.C.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:31 PM
That would involve my going downstairs to ask him. Better keep searching the Internets.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:33 PM
I'm bored. I've also noticed that all the commenting on Unfogged happens when I'm not around.
This precludes my using this site to procrastinate, and that vexes me.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:35 PM
Not included in the Poste article: my dad's habit of tipping the garbagemen at Christmas by leaving a six pack of booze on top of the trashcan with a bow on it.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:40 PM
Saiselgy sez sure, tip. Can I just do this at my next haircut or should I make a special trip? I assume that Hallmark offers an extensive line of comical "to a fantastic stylist!" cards.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:40 PM
Wanna grade some philosophy outlines?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:40 PM
123 to 119.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:41 PM
No, to 120.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:41 PM
123: only if you promise to use the grading I provide.
I donno about all of this concern over your relationship with your hairdresser, Armsmasher. It seems a bit un-smasherly. As robust and virile young men, aren't we supposed to try to foster the illusion that our hair length is maintained through accidental shearing during our constant feats of derring-do (e.g. fighting bears)?
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:46 PM
I prefer to make no effort to maintain a constant hair length -- bear fights occur at irregular intervals, after all (2 or 3 times a year, if that).
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 9:50 PM
123: No, not really. I think I'd likely do a poor job of it, and if I want mediocrity, hey, I can just look at the work I've done today!
Good times.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:16 PM
I am out of my own beer. Do I dare brave a Rolling Rock that is in the fridge? Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill is surprisingly good.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:41 PM
You home-brew?
(Unf update: he said he reads the comments, "sometimes.")
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:43 PM
I meant beer that I bought. I have decided that 1554 by the New Belgium Brewing company is my favorite American beer.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:46 PM
Mrs. Marilyn Manson is an attractive lady.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:48 PM
I would totally home-brew if I had the space.
I hear Unf's mom likes home-brew "sometimes."
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:49 PM
(e.g. fighting bears)?
Could a typical young man, armed only with a knife, (say, six or eight inches long) be trained to consistently "win" fights with a grizzly bear? Assume no element of surprise.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:50 PM
132 - best underwear yet in this thread.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:50 PM
Ok, Rolling Rock is shit.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:52 PM
When camping out in the wilderness for the first time, in bear country, it is very hard to stop thinking about bears and go to sleep.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:55 PM
I recommend Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:56 PM
Your six to eight inch knife keeps bothering you, huh? Try sharpening it.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 10:57 PM
Marilyn Manson asked me where the bathroom was once at a club in New Orleans. He looked like he had just stumbled out of a Dungeons and Dragons game. Not badass at all IRL.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:00 PM
A bit of advice: before the bears get your food and/or garbage, they can be deterred by loud noises and thrown rocks. But if they've already got into your stuff, it's better to assume that they will defend it than to try to drive them away.
This advice may apply only to black bears. Grizzlies are notoriously cuddly and may be domesticated through the use of picnic baskets.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:00 PM
Your six to eight inch knife keeps bothering you, huh? Try sharpening it.
BAD ADVICE ABORT ABORT
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:01 PM
Also, black bears in Yosemite seem to have developed the skill to be able to remove the lids of jars of jelly without breaking the glass.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:02 PM
before the bears get your food and/or garbage, they can be deterred by loud noises and thrown rocks.
Do I come off as really stupid in these comment threads?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:03 PM
I like this mefi answer to the bear question:
I think this is another in the "in fact there are stupid questions" category.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:04 PM
Ok, Rolling Rock is shit.
When my mom was in college, she once drove home across the country with her boyfriend (who refused to take interstates on principle) and his Fiat broke down in Latrobe. Actually on the outskirts of Latrobe, in some sort of Italian community -- lots of Italian groceries, but no Italian car parts. They were stuck there for several days while the local garage ordered parts for the Fiat. She often mentions this when Rolling Rock commercials come on.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:05 PM
There's some movie in which MM appears without makeup. Definitely not badass.
But now we know he has a type. His new bride looks a lot like his ex, Rose McGowan. Who do I complain to for knowing this shit? Farber?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:06 PM
I especially like the phrase "kill the fucking shit out of you".
Before assessing the stupidity of the question, we have to consider its purpose. Maybe it was designed to elicit awesome answers.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:06 PM
Uh, I've seen bears deterred like that. But I suppose it depends on how much experience they have with people.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:06 PM
It's still a stupid question, qua mustard.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:07 PM
142: No, really. First Tom and Smasher worry about their relationship with their hairdressers and decide that their cover story is that they've been in vigorous struggles with bears. Then you bring up the attempt to subdue a bear with a six to eight inch knife. Meanwhile Silvana is moping around complaining of boredom and all the guys ignore her (except for chivalric me). Then Michael says that he can't sleep for thinking about bears. Well, aren't we all in favor of healthy releases for a young man's urges?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:07 PM
NB Weinerface: I am not in a tent in a wilderness right now.
eb, you understand it was hard to tell if you were being serious? In any case, I do not think I have the cajones to throw a rock at a hungry bear.
Silvana, I am smarter than to throw rocks at bears. Wanna date?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:11 PM
Walking along today, I passed two drunk college-aged guys who were charging at each other, one playing "running back," the other, "linebacker." The drunk "running back" asked me to be his "blocking back," but I said "no."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:11 PM
I thought silvana had herself a dude.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:12 PM
151:
I was making a joke, see, by half–taking literally your innuendo. Although now that I think of it, I'm not sure if my wetstone is abrasive enough to inflict real pain on (granted, quite sensitive) skin. I'm in no hurry to find out, mind.
I hear you're supposed to hit metal against metal to get rid of animals—it's not a sort of sound they're used to, or some such.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:13 PM
I thought silvana had herself a dude.
Nonresponsive. Maybe Michael's better.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:14 PM
I thought silvana had herself a dude.
Oh, Ogged.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:15 PM
140, my ex girlfriend was living in New Orleans and buying hurricane supplies (not a devastation-level event, back then). She saw Trent Reznor in the grocery store amassing a cart-sized stockpile of Cheetohs. Head like a hole—fingers like cheesy-poofs.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:15 PM
Perhaps his soul is orange, rather then black as he claimed.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:17 PM
I saw Trent Reznor a couple of months ago at Spamalot. Because when you think of musical theater...
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:18 PM
155, I don't want to hear about your wet stone, but I figured that for all I knew sharpening certain knives could in fact be a bad idea. You're much more up on that kind of fancy kitchen stuff than I am, having no doubt paid more than 25¢ for a knife at some time in your life. Anyway, I was really just looking for an excuse to post that explanation.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:25 PM
Michael, yeah the rest of my comment wasn't so serious, so I can see why it all might have seemed wrong. Although now that I think about it, it's probably best not to mess with bears at all. I haven't been backpacking in almost ten years, but I hear that everyone is supposed to carry special containers now. Before, you had to hang your food, but not everyone did it, leading to rock throwing and yelling.
I've seen, or rather heard, yelling in the middle of the night as other campers protected their food, but never chased off bears myself.
I've actually been in the second situation - where the bears already have your stuff - and yelled and thrown things. They backed off - although not until after one had charged within a few feet of my dad before turning around - but didn't leave the area. In the darkness we could actually see our white trash bag move through the trees but we couldn't really make out the bears' shapes in the distance. We could also still hear them. The end result was that we left them with our trash, packed up our stuff to keep them from going through it, and hiked a mile away to a more established campsite. We came back in the morning to clean up the mess they'd left.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:29 PM
I can't believe no one in that MeFi thread brought up the important data point that Anthony Hopkins killed a bear in The Edge. Someone in the thread proposes doing what he did (sharpen wood into spears), but no one mentions that we have good evidence that an old man can successfully use this strategy.
No, I don't have trouble differentiating reality and fiction, why do you ask?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:29 PM
Ok Ben, I'm reading through that bear thread, and it is, in fact, totally awesome.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:29 PM
The folkstory that "they" use to teach kids about grizzlies up in the Yukon involves a brave Native Canadian kid standing on a rock with his arms in the air screaming at the top of his lungs. My grandad once scared a bear out of his kitchen by running at it, shouting, and throwing pans (the bear was between him and the exit).
The general advice: don't shoot unless you're confident you can kill it, make noise, make yourself look big, and maybe it'll wander off. A knife-fight? The young man is dead, dead, dead.
I'm not really convinced by the throwing-rocks advice. Maybe throw the rocks into the bushes behind the bear, but at the bear? Better you than me.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:30 PM
Two goth celebrity sightings, Becks? Care to share your feelings about Dream Theater?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:30 PM
I hear you're supposed to hit metal against metal to get rid of animals—it's not a sort of sound they're used to, or some such.
I was told that too: bang your dishes together. I should have added that to yelling and throwing.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:31 PM
What the hell does Dream Theater have to do with goths?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:36 PM
Marilyn Manson asked me where the bathroom was once at a club in New Orleans.
Did he tip you?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 4-05 11:41 PM
If you can tip, then tip high for her, too....
Till she cry "Philosopher, p-hatted, high-tipping philosopher,
I must have you!"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:12 AM
I guess p-hat is mostly a statistics symbol. P-bar, that's another way to write not-p, right? Ah, well.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:14 AM
I waited around for you guys to do something interesting, but eventually made high to the Law Review office where it was explained to me that it is a mistake to think that the McRib has anything to do with ribs, just as it would be a mistake to assume that cattle has anything to do with cats. Weiner, your chivalry was appreciated, insofar as I appreciate chivalry, which is to say less than most.
I do, indeed, have myself a dude (though I don't know how ogged knows this), but that doesn't mean I shan't ask for entertainment herein. And yes, he's better than Michael, at least insofar as spelling is concerned. Beyond that, I couldn't really say.
Back to tipping.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:15 AM
high = hie. Guess I should work on my own damn spelling.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:16 AM
Then wear the gold hat, if that will move her;
A reference to "Why so pale and wan, fond lover"?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:16 AM
SILVANA: I do, indeed, have myself a dude (though I don't know how ogged knows this), but that doesn't mean I shan't ask for entertainment herein. [She gestures towards her crotch] And yes, he's better than Michael, at least insofar as spelling is concerned. Beyond that, I couldn't really say—he's waiting until marriage.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:19 AM
Now, now, ben, let's not get vulgar, or I shall be forced to revoke Non-Creepy BlogCrush(tm).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:21 AM
On … me? Well all right then.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:27 AM
On … me? Well all right then.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:28 AM
That's odd—isn't that not supposed to happen?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:28 AM
Well, one can't have a NCBC(tm) on ogged, because he only likes, what is it? Swedes replete with excellence who manage to be as un-monkey-resembling as it is possible to be while still being human.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:29 AM
There's a list somewhere.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:30 AM
It wouldn't be much of a threat to me that you might revoke your NCBC(tm) on ogged, anyway.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:32 AM
I just thought today, as every day, was international rib-ogged-about-unnaturally-high-standards-and-TiVo-status day.
Also, my father told me never to date an Arab.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:37 AM
Ogged isn't an Arab, he's a Persian.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:40 AM
It should be noted that 179 can be read in more than one way.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:42 AM
I was about to say "I know," but then I suspected that you might not make such a direct statement, and then I got mired in the Iranian-Persian distinction. Then, confusion.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 1:44 AM
So we read on...
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 2:06 AM
So we read on...
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 2:07 AM
I tried to post, waited, saw nothing when I checked the page, tried again, and ended up posting twice - without making any changes to the comment.
I retract my snark in 185.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 2:10 AM
But your snark amused.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 2:11 AM
Very well, the snark is reinstated, just for you.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 2:21 AM
You use the slit?
Nicely done.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 5:32 AM
What the hell does Dream Theater have to do with goths?
Yeah, what's that all about.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 5:40 AM
Ogged, you just picked up a load of weird spam. A lot of people really seem to admire your site a lot, and they promise to keep coming back to it.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 5:40 AM
Ugh, well, apparently the metal prog center and goth center of my brain are more closely situated than for most. It's been a very long time since I've heard DT. Didn't mean to inaccurately conflate them. But really, don't care.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 6:27 AM
Will understand why DT fans take offense, though. MM and NIN are low company.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 6:33 AM
172: Well, it wasn't very high-quality chivalry. cf.
I think your dudedness was apparent from some of the pictures on your blog--but of course, that never stops the truly chivalrous. (Um, I was thinking of making a semi-serious point about something there, but fuck it.)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:01 AM
The word you're look for is "preaux," no, Weiner?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:05 AM
The word I'm currently looking for is "fuck-to-obotic," as in what that comment was. (Sorry, Tim; I wouldn't have snarked on it, but when I thought of "fuck-to-obotic" I had to share. The condition is "fuck-to-obosis.")
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:34 AM
One piece of information I remember from Boy Scouts is that you should not use a Bowie knife with a fish scaler against a bear. The serrations are likely to get caught on bone, getting the knife stuck before you can kill the thing.
Also: in the event of a nuclear explosion, don't stand by the window (that's not from the BSA, it's just common sense).
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:42 AM
Please note that what Weiner calls "chivalry," is actually W-chivalry, otherwise known as "horndogging." When he exhorts the rest of us to be chivalrous, he wants us to become his deputy horndogs.
Silvana, never date an Arab. Aren't you Arab? Your father knows what he's talking about, then.
I'm pretty sure my list of who other people shouldn't date is longer than my list of who I won't date.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:43 AM
Ogged gets it! Though since he also seems to be endorsing universal celibacy, his standards for horndogging are likely pretty low.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 7:58 AM
I'm pretty sure my list of who other people shouldn't date is longer than my list of who I won't date.
I'd be curious about reasons. Or, I guess, justifications.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:01 AM
201: Yes, I am Arab. Well, my father is, anyway. So yeah, he knows what he's talking about. And don't worry, ogged, I have taken the advice to heart, at least since the Palestinian guy I dated in the 10th grade.
I don't know what my dad's reason was for saying that, SCMT, but from my opinion most Arab men are sexist bastards, and the ones who aren't still are, in that they have deeply traditional ideas about how women and men are supposed to behave both in and out of relationships.
wants us to become his deputy horndogs
This brings an image to mind that is deeply, deepply funny. It involves Weiner as hotdog (yes, I went there) in a uniform, possibly sherriff's.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:16 AM
W'ots wrong with sexy bastards?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:19 AM
I just think the advice is funny as most people I know who are from somewhere else (as in, their parents are; I would say first-generation immigrant although I guess I'm not really an immigrant, either) want their kids to marry someone of that same nationality. My dad has the opposite advice.
I guess it makes sense - he didn't marry an Egyptian, either.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:20 AM
There's a wonderful novel, "Arabian Jazz" by Diana Abu-Jabar, about Arabs not marrying Arabs. There's more to it than that, but there's definitely that.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:36 AM
most people...want their kids to marry someone of that same nationality. My dad has the opposite advice
My mom is most people, your dad loves you.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 8:47 AM
Deputy Horndog rates Caressa Savage. One of Matt's little helpers, obvs.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:00 AM
I should have known that clicking that link would not be enlightening or productive.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:02 AM
I'd even pay to watch Caressa do my sister, she's so hot!
Um, creepy, dude.
Sherriff Horndog and the Deputies could be a decent band name. Or porn title. Could go either way, really.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:03 AM
The sidebar of the link SB provided is why the mainstream porn industry creeps me the fuck out. It's like a fucking grocery store. Hair color, bust size, ethnicity categorization.
So fucked up.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:08 AM
Aw, that's just because it's like a bad grocery store. If the categories were things like "not doing it just because they're mad at daddy" or "dirty, dirty women," or "seem chaste, for a while" then it would be pretty cool.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:22 AM
Back to tipping. People keep saying there's no need to tip in a Motel 6, but there is: THE MAID CLEANS YOUR ROOM. $1/day, people. It won't break you.
Hairdressers, mail carriers, etc., I personally think a little silly. Then again, I don't currently have a regular person who cuts my hair. But in the past I have, and liked them very much, and so then there's the possibility of a token gift-type thing or, why not? an extra 5% or so on top of the regular tip for the December cut.
One person who is worth tipping is the newspaper carrier, whether kid or adult. Even the adults get paid badly: they're classified as "independent contractors" and paid, literally, pennies on the paper. A few extra bucks is good present-buying money for these folks, who really are the working poor.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:31 AM
There should really be public service announcements about this stuff. I am vigilant about tipping, but I have never done the $1/day thing. I shall start. Not like I stay in hotels that often, but still.
Is it just me, or is there something weird going on at Starbucks? Do they even have a tip jar? Is there some sort of corporate anti-tip-jar policy? Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there (as opposed to independent coffee shops, where you're pretty much a total dick if you don't tip).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:34 AM
Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there
Really? I thought all Starbucks had tip jars (unless if this is a recent thing-- I haven't been in one in a few months). That was one of the things that bugged me when I used to work in a Barnes & Noble Starbucks, we weren't allowed to have a tip jar while the regular Starbucks did.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:38 AM
Do you tip for counter service?
And het, what I said was that at Motel 6 there are no busboys.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:40 AM
I want to say that neither of the two Starbucks I go to semi-regularly have a tip jar. Now this is going to bug me - I'll check today.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:41 AM
If 217 is talking about coffeeshops still, then yes. Especially if your drink is something other than just coffee.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:43 AM
Back to tipping. People keep saying there's no need to tip in a Motel 6, but there is: THE MAID CLEANS YOUR ROOM. $1/day, people. It won't break you.
I understand the need for this, but it seems sort of tricky to tip someone who you may not ever see. Shouldn't I also be tipping the hotel's dishwashers, landscapers, pool cleaners, maintenance personnel and other poorly paid, generally unseen employees?
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:45 AM
But the most pressing tipping question of all time: are you supposed to tip the people at Sonic?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:46 AM
"not doing it just because they're mad at daddy"
So creepy. Maybe you really shouldn't ever date Iranians.
Do you tip for counter service?
Are you people kidding me? Do you tip at the McDonald's drive through window? Because I really want to see the principled argument for distinguishing between your barrista and your window server.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:48 AM
Yes, tip the Sonic people. My little brother works at once of those. He doesn't expect a lot.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:51 AM
Well, Tom, I didn't say the rules were comprehsnive. The point of the maid is that you're not supposed to see her, of course. Leave the $2-$3 on the bedside table.
I am told by my boyfriend the restaurateur that you don't tip for take-away *unless* you go there fairly regularly, in which case it's worth it, again, as a bizarrely counter-intuitive mark that your relationship with the service provider is no longer anonymous and approaches some kind of semi-"friendly" acquaintanceship.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:51 AM
I *really* don't get the tip-for-counter-service thing. There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1. Yeah yeah, redistribution of wealth is good, poor wages, all that -- but how about some parity for other tippable employees?
And SCMT's point about fast food strikes me as really good. I throw a buck into the pot at my favorite takeout rotisserie chicken place every now and then, but only because I know and like the staff.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:51 AM
The person at the McDonald's drive-thru window didn't make your cheeseburger.
Maybe the principled argument is that people generally tip the barristas, and if one knows this and still can't throw in 50 cents, that makes one a cheap bastard?
I guess that's not principled, but that seems to be the way tipping conventions generally work.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:53 AM
If 217 is talking about coffeeshops still, then yes. Especially if your drink is something other than just coffee.
And yet you never tell this to the person you see buying something other than just coffee, like, every other day.
Posted by sexualchocolate | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:53 AM
I really want to see the principled argument for distinguishing between your barrista and your window server
It's not the kind of service, but the expected means of income--the McD's employees take the job knowing that they'll get their money from the company, and nothing else. The barristas expect tips. Simple as that. It doesn't always make sense, but as long as that's the system, you don't get to opt out by not paying without screwing someone over, or, at least, seeming like a dick.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:54 AM
Is it just me, or is there something weird going on at Starbucks? Do they even have a tip jar? Is there some sort of corporate anti-tip-jar policy? Because I just realized that I don't think I ever see people tipping there (as opposed to independent coffee shops, where you're pretty much a total dick if you don't tip).
I may be a dick (although this doesn't come up much because I don't buy a lot of coffee in coffee shops) but I don't tip for counter service as a matter of policy. I hate the tipping system -- I tip where I have to (restaurants, taxis, hotels) because it would be unjust to the people whose compensation is based on tipping if I didn't, but I really don't want to expand the areas where tipping is conventional/necessary.
I never heard of tipping for counter-service until the 90's wave of Starbucksesque coffee shops took off, and they started showing up with tip jars. I don't believe enough people tip that it gets calculated as a significant part of baristas' salaries, and I'd like to keep it that way. (Actually, I want a social revolution which, among other things, eliminates tipping. Raise the goddam price and pay a living wage, why can't you?)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:55 AM
That's because I don't think they have a tip jar at the Starbucks! What's more, said person tends to pay with a credit card, on which there is no tip line.
This contributes to the Starbucks anti-tip-jar corporate policy theory.
Dude, you're not a cheapass.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:55 AM
230 to 227.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:56 AM
So creepy.
Wait, I'm not creepy for pointing out one of the many creepy things about porn. You take that back.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:56 AM
There's not enough money in independent coffeehouses for owners to pay their employees compelling wages and also manage a profitable company, so if you like indie coffeehouses, you ought to tip the baristas. For a cup of drip, for water, for playing the Stooges song you like.
Starbucks doesn't seem to encourage tipping, but then they ay their employees decently and offer health care to a lot of them, so I think the interest in tipping in Starbucks should be (or can be) for exceptional service or difficult orders.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:57 AM
I know Starbucks gives their employees full (or close to) benefits.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 9:59 AM
There's not enough money in independent coffeehouses for owners to pay their employees compelling wages and also manage a profitable company, so if you like indie coffeehouses, you ought to tip the baristas.
Does this make sense? If customers will pay $2 and tip $.50 on average for a cup of coffee, then they'll (on average) pay $2.50 for the coffee if they don't have to tip. It's the same amount of money coming out of the customers' pockets, which should be able to fund the same amount of compensation to the employees.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:01 AM
There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1.
I've always thought that too, but I've been told on more than one occasion that $1/drink minimum is what is expected, and to do otherwise is to engage in dick-like behavior. Mixed drinks I understand are a different story, but can I safely tip just a buck or two for a whole round of drinks (beer bottles), for example?
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:03 AM
Does this make sense?
This is a DeLong question. Let's batsignal him. Click that link.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:03 AM
I don't believe enough people tip that it gets calculated as a significant part of baristas' salaries
I'd say that this is wrong for, well, probably close to every barista working in America. For the nation of student and struggling artist barista, even paltry tipping is crucial.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:04 AM
Totally random question – One of the girls I went to school with did the proverbial "paid her way through college by being a stripper"-thing and told us all about how the patron is supposed to tip up front for services in a strip club (before a private dance, not after). That's such an anomaly – are there any other instances that exist where you're expected to tip before the service is rendered? I can't think of one.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:04 AM
are there any other instances that exist where you're expected to tip before the service is rendered?
Are there other services where there's a chance you'll pass out while they're being rendered?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:07 AM
even paltry tipping is crucial
I think this is the crux of the coffeeshop tipping question. I used to think that it was rude, if say, you had 20 cents in change, to just throw that into the tip jar, but after talking to several friends who worked in coffeeshops, where they explained to me that they serve so many customers that that kind of thing is really vital. My one friend's greatest ire was against people who would take a dime in change and put it painstakingly into their coin wallet.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:08 AM
I think LB's right. It's just stupid feudal tradition with a hint of tax evasion, as noted above.
Matt F: I draw the line at the $1/drink custom, too, although I know it's considered standard. $1 for the round, unless there are complicated or multiple mixed drinks involved. If that makes me a dick, so be it. My friends who've tended bar did well enough for themselves (in some cases despite massive incompetence) that I don't feel at all bad about this.
Becks: the maid service example seems to be one example of pre-pay tipping. When I tip for counter service I end up doing it before the goods are delivered, too. Also: ushers.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:09 AM
One of those sentences was supposed to actually make sense.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:09 AM
This is on the fine line between tipping and bribery, but slipping the maitre d' a twenty for a good table?
I'd say that this is wrong for, well, probably close to every barista working in America. For the nation of student and struggling artist barista, even paltry tipping is crucial
Well, maybe I've missed my chance to hold back a pernicious social trend, and am simply a dick, but when did this change? I swear no one ever tipped for counter service of a cup of coffee before the current wave of Starbucksy coffee shops -- say, the early mid-90s. Have coffee shop wages dropped since then?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:09 AM
Are there other services where there's a chance you'll pass out while they're being rendered?
I suppose it depends on the establishment, but I would think bartenders would run into this problem occasionally.
Also, anesthesiologists.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:10 AM
Only of the conventional "holiday tipping" situations applies to me: the super. (Well, and maybe the mail carrier, but I'm not about to go there.) My super for the past six years has pretty much been a dick to me, and while I would like to think that if I give him a holiday tip, he'd suddenly be nice and replace that broken shower curtain rod, I don't even know how I'd go about sidling up to him and handing him an envelope of cash. Socially awkward indeed.
How do those of you who perform holiday tipping go about it?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:12 AM
Also, anesthesiologists.
Good point; tough case: you don't really want your anesthesiologist slipping you a little extra.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:13 AM
Is tipping customary at the Mineshaft?
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:14 AM
A nice Christmas (other holiday card) with cash in it. If he lives in the building, under his door is fine -- otherwise, hand it to him with a big smile and a "Merry Christmas (or holiday of your choice)". Any super worth his salt will be unusually visible for the next month, to facilitate such card giving.
(I do tip where I know it's standard, honest!)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:15 AM
A question: am I a dick for running a bar tab on a credit card, then tipping 15-20% on the receipt at the end of the night? It seems justifiable to me based on the percentage, but unquestionably ends up costing much less money than the $1/drink standard.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:15 AM
"Tipping" is said in many ways, Jeremy.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:15 AM
There's no way that a bartender expends enough effort twisting off a bottlecap to earn $1.
At the bar that I've spent the most time at, the bartenders were busy enough that it took a lot of coordination and effort just to get to your order and keep track of it. Think the noodle woman trying to stay on top of the orders in Tampopo, if that means anything to anybody.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 5-05 10:15 AM
246 - My building staff sends each resident a "it's been a pleasure to serve you this year" holiday card with each member of the building staff's full name spelled out as the signature and then places a box on the front desk for tip envelopes. Not subtle, but removes any of the social awkwardness.
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