I'd be happy to marry a stunningly gorgeous 21 year old, 2x+7 rule be damned. She has money, right? Since you're anonymous, I could easily sub for you.
I know this will get lost if I post it to the MM thread, so can I just note that submissive, voluptuous women need love too! And if domineering sexists aren't there for them, who will be? John Kerry? Not too damn likely!
The stories I've heard about the arranged-marriage scene are both hilarious and sad.
Most of the arranged marriages of which I'm aware were and are pretty matter of fact affairs. Sometimes I think I see sadness, but that's probably me thinking it's sad.
One woman from Pakistan married a cousin of some sort; I don't know if it was a first or second cousin. She kind of knew him, but not well since, after a certain age, they did not interact socially. If I understood her correctly, it's fairly common to marry relatives. That kind of weirds me out. I'm sure there practical are reasons for it, but it still weirds me out.
Wait, no, there was a sad story. This woman from India got married via the usual fairly quick arrangement. She later heard, via email, from a man who had been interested in her and she in him, but for some reason these feelings never came out. Anyway, she emailed him back an impassioned response about how she wishes she knew he wanted to marry her, she would have married him in a second, etc. She sent the email, presumably to this man, although she accidentally sent it to her boss (my husband) instead. He didn't get into it with her except to let her know that her email didn't get to its intended recipient.
Still, she seems as happy as most non-arranged marriage people. I'm sure ogged knows much more about this, but I imagine there are different expectations in cultures where arranged marriages are common. And I don't think that the western idea of marriage for love is an accurate representation of what usually goes on.
Arranged marriage was quite common on the American frontier and among XIXc American immigrants (mail-order brides, "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" was the movie version). In that day marriages were functionally necessary because it was almost impossible to live as a bachelor except in dormitory-like arrangements. Simple things like doing laundry, cooking, and heating the house were very labor intensive. So marriages were like business partnerships, with a muted romantic component.
The love-marriages I've known of have had only a fair success rate, and a moderately high misery rate, so arranged marriage soesn't look unspeakably bad to me.
On the other hand, Ogged doesn't want to replicate Iranian culture in the US, and since happy love marriages are possible, he might as well gamble on it.
I have a couple of acquaintances in arranged marriages. So far, both pairings have stayed together and seem happy and well-matched. That success rate is much, much higher than my friends who entered non-arranged marriages, which are running at roughly a 75% divorce rate.
Too small of a sample size to extrapolate much from it, but make of it what you will.
Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a "fly John to NY" Unfogged fundraiser. Do you have a place to stay in NY, or should we make it a "fly John to NY and put him up for a couple of nights" Unfogged mega-event?
The stories I've heard about the arranged-marriage scene are both hilarious and sad.
Most of the arranged marriages of which I'm aware were and are pretty matter of fact affairs. Sometimes I think I see sadness, but that's probably me thinking it's sad.
I didn't mean actual arranged marriages so much as the tension between, say, immigrant parents who are pro-arrangement and Americanized children who aren't, and the sorts of domestic comedy that can result from, say, sabatoging meetings, etc.
On the other hand, Ogged doesn't want to replicate Iranian culture in the US, and since happy love marriages are possible, he might as well gamble on it.
I wasn't thinking that ogged would be into an arranged marriage; I just figured that he'd know a lot more about arranged marriages than I would know, e.g., what are the expectations of each party.
I wonder if it's the expectations, motivations, goals, etc. of arranged marriages that contribute to their seemingly higher success rate. Or perhaps there's a stigma against divorce so that you just stick it out.
Comedy to you, bub. The parental pressure in these cultures is loud, insistent, and unceasing. Generally, I think people don't share just how stressful these parents can be when transported into American life (I know I didn't), but it can be a real strain. Of course, it can also be mined for comedy gold.
If the flight from wherever it is to NY becomes a reality, I can probably convince Ellen that we should put up a dodgy old man in our guest bedroom for a night or two.
I don't think that the western idea of marriage for love is an accurate representation
Even in the West.
my friends who entered non-arranged marriages, which are running at roughly a 75% divorce rate.
The Apostropher is the persistent factor in a community where the divorce rate is double the national average. Sounds about right. No one can resist even the undeployed charms of the Apostropher.
Longer based on number of comments, or number of characters? Comments like "33 to 29" could easily give the impression that one's thread is longer than it really is. At the same time, overly bulky ("fat") comments could conceal the real size of the thread.
The flip side of the U.S. / European anti-arranged marriage ideology is that we romanticize marriages in which the couple defies the opposition of either person's parents, and we consider the objections of potential in-laws largely irrelevant. When in reality, having family and social support is an important factor in maintaining a marriage, and really: who is going to know (and have shaped) one's beliefs and behaviors more than one's family?
Another interesting point is that, despite the belief that we marry for love alone, in fact most people marry partners of the same social class, of a comparable educational level, etc.--not that far off what parents look for in arranging marriages, I would think.
Mail-order brides come with three-year calendars in their luggage. Once the residency requirement is met, they renogotiate the contract. They're effectively like computers -- you need to get a new one every three years.
Richard Thompson wrote a song about a man who divorced his wife, married an inlatable doll, and then a bit later divorced the inflatable doll and married a different inflatable doll.
And I'm totally serious about an Unfogged fundraiser.
Having read Emerson since the Zizka days, I'll kick in ten bucks to fly him to New York, if necessary. Hell, I'll even throw in another ten to fly Farber.
That Real Doll site is something else. I think there was a thread here about that not too long ago (or there certainly should have been). For the minimalist, the RealDoll torso:
Due to a high number of requests, Abyss Creations is now offering the Realdoll torso. This torso starts just above the belly button, and terminates at mid thigh. It includes both Vaginal and Anal entries, and is made with the same high grade materials as the dolls. Available in all skin tones with your choice of pubic hair style and color. Also, if you purchase the torso for evaluation purposes and then decide to order a Realdoll, you may deduct $500.00 from the price of the doll.
One interesting point about arranged marriages is that it's not simply up to the couple itself to define the expectations of a relationship; thus the success of arranged marriages might be partly attributable to the social norms and expectations that are prevalent in contexts where these marriages are common, not to the arrangement per se. So arrangement in other contexts might not reap the perceived rewards. (This is sort of like Bernard Williams' point about how you can't really live the life of a medieval knight even if you act in all the right ways.)
I'm not sure I even did the reading the day that a Williams piece discussing that idea was assigned, but I remember coming out of it convinced that if I wanted to go be a Samurai in the outback of Australia, it'd work out all right. This was in class with a guy who I (very jokingly!) suggested that you punch in the face at the APA.
So arrangement in other contexts might not reap the perceived rewards.
I wonder what you're thinking of, specifically. The "arranged" marriages I know (arranged not in the sense of "compelled," but in the sense of being married after meeting a couple of times) are mostly here, in the US, and they seem to work basically as they do in Iran--what counts as "context" for a marriage isn't, in most dealings, a very big circle, right?
Less creepy than the company owner's tale of receiving one for repair that had been severely mutilated. I consider myself staunchly uncreepable and that made even my skin crawl.
D'oh! Ellen informs me that I was mistaken about John being able to stay in our guest room next Tuesday. Sorry -- hopefully somebody else has the space.
One of my cousins has been trying to go the arranged marriage route (with the help of his dad, whose idea it may have been). He's in the US but this has involved a couple of trips to the old country to meet a prospective bride and her family. It doesn't seem to have worked out, though.
Also, if you're looking for a Soviet-era silent film about a Jewish matchmaker - and who isn't? - I recommend this.
It's not quite my old country, what with my being born here (and with mixed marriages and all, who's to say what I'd call an old country?), but he was born there and lived there for part of his childhood, so I think it counts as his.
Mainly I didn't want to give the impression that he's just some American trying to pick up a foreign bride.
Anyway, while I am unable to attend the unfogged world tour stop in NYC, I do have a spare bedroom for Mr. Emerson or anyone else who is interested. I live in NJ and the city is about a 45 min. drive. There are also buses and trains available. Allergy alert: we have 4 cats.
Tia, you could claim to be a lurker and then, having dazzled everyone with your charm and wit and uncommon grace, slip out into the night hinting every so slyly that one day you might decide to comment.
I actually thought of that ruse too. It had the advantage of preventing my lack of meatspace charm and grace from prejudicing my online persona. But a wig and some Groucho Marx glasses, and shedding some of the distinctive items of clothing I usually wear, might allay my biggest concern, which is being casually recognized.
It had the advantage of preventing my lack of meatspace charm and grace from prejudicing my online persona. But a wig and some Groucho Marx glasses, and shedding some of the distinctive items of clothing I usually wear, might allay my biggest concern, which is being casually recognized.
May I suggest the curly blond wig, the double-breasted raincoat and the round golden horn?
That is, Harpo. Not only do you not have to wear a mustache, you can also get away with not talking at all and instead merely smile broadly and honk enthusiastically at opportune moments.
Apostropher, someone who runs around shouting, "No, Apostropher is the hero!" does not get the asylum-keeper delusion; the behavior is incompatible with the belief. Only I am the psychiatrist, and I need you to stick with one pathology or your treatment will never progress. Now where did I put those clamps?
That would make sense. I couldn't figure out for the longest time why everybody was talking about Iowa yesterday (and the day before?) -- I thought maybe that was somebody's mistaken idea of Zizka's location -- it took me until this morning to retrace my tracks and figure out they were talking about the Invisible Adjunct, and now I'm all excited at the prospect of meeting her.
Meanness? Whatever happened to the duty of charitable interpretation? I made the comment in hopes of maintaining Kotsko's health. If anything, it was like a written hug of friendship for Kotsko.
I'm under the impression, though I haven't checked, that ash is not near NY.
Check. Armsmasher and I share a hometown.
My guess as to the answer to your question: ventriloquist dummy.
What happened to sotto voce muttering?
Ogged, if that's the case, I'd have trouble deciding whether to punch the puppet or him.
Is there some academic rite of passage thing I'm missing here? "My degree must taste blood 'ere I sheath it again!"
I made the comment in hopes of maintaining Kotsko's health. If anything, it was like a written hug of friendship for Kotsko.
Seems sensible to me. (Kind, too!)
I promise I won't go lest Kotsko go into a frothing theological beserker rage or something. Not that I was going anyways. It'd take a while to hitchhike to NY.
If it pains Kotsko deeply not to know tho, I promise to read a comment from somewhere aloud and record it as an .mp3.
ash
['The bracketed comments are audible as such. I think.']
If that was directed at me, the answer is: no. Not my thing. I know who Karen Carpenter is, but I would cross several continents to avoid having to listening to music. I'm not actually against Meatloaf in that way, but neither am I for it. Or him. Sorry.
I find it satisfying at least that Ash didn't get that very obvious cultural reference.
Yay! Revel in your (psuedo-)insular hipness! You have achieved your very own nirvana of personal ingroupness and are now fit to write your own gossip column and people will actually enjoy hearing tales of your future plastic surgeries! Rejoice! You have made it!
I find it satisfying at least that Ash didn't get that very obvious cultural reference.
Yay! Revel in your (psuedo-)insular hipness! You have achieved your very own nirvana of personal ingroupness and are now fit to write your own gossip column and people will actually enjoy hearing tales of your future plastic surgeries! Rejoice! You have made it!
ash, they were "movin' on up to the east side, to a deluxe apartment in the sky." But if you shift your ellipsis a couple words to the right, you'll be right as rain.
Did it actually doublepost on you Wolfson. Cuz I hit that second one once and it triple posted. (I started to post 'reeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrbbbbbbb' but thought better of it.)
But if you shift your ellipsis a couple words to the right, you'll be right as rain.
But I don't want to!
Well we're movin on up, To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.
Fish don't fry in the kitchen;
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in teh big leagues
Gettin' our turn at bat.
As long as we live, it's you and me baby
There ain't nothin wrong with that.
Well we're movin on up,
To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.
ash
['I like my version better, since that's the way I hear in on the third pass.']
At time of posting
Are you trying to break my heart?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 7:40 AM
That is so, so awesome.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 7:47 AM
Is your mom into that at all? The stories I've heard about the arranged-marriage scene are both hilarious and sad.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 7:49 AM
She only occasionally expresses a desire that I marry her best friend's stunningly gorgeous twenty-one year-old daughter. Otherwise, no.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 7:52 AM
I "don't care."
Yeah, I have a hard time getting worked up about some actress that died six years before I was born. Now, Audrey Hepburn, on the other hand...
Incidentally, I like all y'all's biodata.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 7:56 AM
I'd be happy to marry a stunningly gorgeous 21 year old, 2x+7 rule be damned. She has money, right? Since you're anonymous, I could easily sub for you.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:06 AM
Is today love-your-spammer day and I missed the announcement? Alternative possibility: ogged is busy at work. I find the first more likely.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:22 AM
Since you're anonymous
Not to his mother and her friend, presumably.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:23 AM
Busted. I thought I could slip that one by.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:43 AM
Is a "curry and rice girl" someone who's down to earth?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:46 AM
I know this will get lost if I post it to the MM thread, so can I just note that submissive, voluptuous women need love too! And if domineering sexists aren't there for them, who will be? John Kerry? Not too damn likely!
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:57 AM
The stories I've heard about the arranged-marriage scene are both hilarious and sad.
Most of the arranged marriages of which I'm aware were and are pretty matter of fact affairs. Sometimes I think I see sadness, but that's probably me thinking it's sad.
One woman from Pakistan married a cousin of some sort; I don't know if it was a first or second cousin. She kind of knew him, but not well since, after a certain age, they did not interact socially. If I understood her correctly, it's fairly common to marry relatives. That kind of weirds me out. I'm sure there practical are reasons for it, but it still weirds me out.
Wait, no, there was a sad story. This woman from India got married via the usual fairly quick arrangement. She later heard, via email, from a man who had been interested in her and she in him, but for some reason these feelings never came out. Anyway, she emailed him back an impassioned response about how she wishes she knew he wanted to marry her, she would have married him in a second, etc. She sent the email, presumably to this man, although she accidentally sent it to her boss (my husband) instead. He didn't get into it with her except to let her know that her email didn't get to its intended recipient.
Still, she seems as happy as most non-arranged marriage people. I'm sure ogged knows much more about this, but I imagine there are different expectations in cultures where arranged marriages are common. And I don't think that the western idea of marriage for love is an accurate representation of what usually goes on.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 8:57 AM
Arranged marriage was quite common on the American frontier and among XIXc American immigrants (mail-order brides, "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" was the movie version). In that day marriages were functionally necessary because it was almost impossible to live as a bachelor except in dormitory-like arrangements. Simple things like doing laundry, cooking, and heating the house were very labor intensive. So marriages were like business partnerships, with a muted romantic component.
The love-marriages I've known of have had only a fair success rate, and a moderately high misery rate, so arranged marriage soesn't look unspeakably bad to me.
On the other hand, Ogged doesn't want to replicate Iranian culture in the US, and since happy love marriages are possible, he might as well gamble on it.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:10 AM
Hey, John, since you're well into your retirement, why don't you join us at the NY meetup?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:12 AM
I have a couple of acquaintances in arranged marriages. So far, both pairings have stayed together and seem happy and well-matched. That success rate is much, much higher than my friends who entered non-arranged marriages, which are running at roughly a 75% divorce rate.
Too small of a sample size to extrapolate much from it, but make of it what you will.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:23 AM
I'd also like to see John at the NYC meetup. Is this possible? Is it do-able? Could we take up a collection for this worthy cause?
Posted by IA | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:28 AM
You can't say "no" to that, John.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:31 AM
I really can't afford it. It does sound like fun.
Will Ogged's cousin be there? Maybe I could come then.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:33 AM
I thought John lived in Oregon or somewhere similar to Oregon in its remoteness from New York?
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:33 AM
I really can't afford it. It does sound like fun.
Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a "fly John to NY" Unfogged fundraiser. Do you have a place to stay in NY, or should we make it a "fly John to NY and put him up for a couple of nights" Unfogged mega-event?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:35 AM
I didn't mean actual arranged marriages so much as the tension between, say, immigrant parents who are pro-arrangement and Americanized children who aren't, and the sorts of domestic comedy that can result from, say, sabatoging meetings, etc.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:37 AM
On the other hand, Ogged doesn't want to replicate Iranian culture in the US, and since happy love marriages are possible, he might as well gamble on it.
I wasn't thinking that ogged would be into an arranged marriage; I just figured that he'd know a lot more about arranged marriages than I would know, e.g., what are the expectations of each party.
I wonder if it's the expectations, motivations, goals, etc. of arranged marriages that contribute to their seemingly higher success rate. Or perhaps there's a stigma against divorce so that you just stick it out.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:38 AM
21: Ah. Sorry. I misunderstood.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:40 AM
IA! Cool!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:46 AM
domestic comedy
Comedy to you, bub. The parental pressure in these cultures is loud, insistent, and unceasing. Generally, I think people don't share just how stressful these parents can be when transported into American life (I know I didn't), but it can be a real strain. Of course, it can also be mined for comedy gold.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:47 AM
Also hi, IA!
I now live in central Minnesota.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:49 AM
Comedy to you, bub.
But of course. As the 2000-dollar man said, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you walk into an open manhole and die."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:50 AM
If the flight from wherever it is to NY becomes a reality, I can probably convince Ellen that we should put up a dodgy old man in our guest bedroom for a night or two.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:50 AM
Thanks, Jeremy! Come on, John Emerson!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:51 AM
for "wherever it is" read "Minnesota".
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:52 AM
I don't think that the western idea of marriage for love is an accurate representation
Even in the West.
my friends who entered non-arranged marriages, which are running at roughly a 75% divorce rate.
The Apostropher is the persistent factor in a community where the divorce rate is double the national average. Sounds about right. No one can resist even the undeployed charms of the Apostropher.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 9:56 AM
Longer based on number of comments, or number of characters? Comments like "33 to 29" could easily give the impression that one's thread is longer than it really is. At the same time, overly bulky ("fat") comments could conceal the real size of the thread.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:00 AM
Well, I'm 1 for 2 in my own marriages, so at least one woman has been able to resist them.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:02 AM
one's thread is longer than it really is
Ah, the old shower/grower distinction.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:03 AM
The flip side of the U.S. / European anti-arranged marriage ideology is that we romanticize marriages in which the couple defies the opposition of either person's parents, and we consider the objections of potential in-laws largely irrelevant. When in reality, having family and social support is an important factor in maintaining a marriage, and really: who is going to know (and have shaped) one's beliefs and behaviors more than one's family?
Another interesting point is that, despite the belief that we marry for love alone, in fact most people marry partners of the same social class, of a comparable educational level, etc.--not that far off what parents look for in arranging marriages, I would think.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:09 AM
Bitch, I was hoping that you would arrange my marriage.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:12 AM
This is starting to look possible -- tickets aren't bad. What are the dates (I haven't been thinking).
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:13 AM
The meetup is on Tuesday, the 13th. And I'm totally serious about an Unfogged fundraiser.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:14 AM
Sure, Adam. Do you want a curry & rice girl, or no?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:21 AM
Doesn't it miss the point to consult with me?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:21 AM
Kotsko: too lazy for an arranged marriage.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:23 AM
Yeah, I thought about a Russian mail-order bride, but the paperwork was just a nightmare.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:25 AM
With DC being only a 3-hour train ride from NYC, I'd like to encourage the NYers to make the trip down to DC on the 11th and bask in my aura.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:25 AM
Mail-order brides come with three-year calendars in their luggage. Once the residency requirement is met, they renogotiate the contract. They're effectively like computers -- you need to get a new one every three years.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:31 AM
Which kind of sucks, when the old one has all your mp3s and downloaded movies on it.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:33 AM
Which kind of sucks, when the old one has all your mp3s and downloaded movies on it.
Where do you keep your porn, on a portable hard drive or something?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:52 AM
Asked, and answered, believe it or not.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:54 AM
Not just a deviant, but a pwned deviant.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:56 AM
The three-year expiration date on mail-order brides is a solvable problem.
NSFW.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 10:58 AM
Richard Thompson wrote a song about a man who divorced his wife, married an inlatable doll, and then a bit later divorced the inflatable doll and married a different inflatable doll.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:00 AM
And I'm totally serious about an Unfogged fundraiser.
Having read Emerson since the Zizka days, I'll kick in ten bucks to fly him to New York, if necessary. Hell, I'll even throw in another ten to fly Farber.
Posted by Paul | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:12 AM
That Real Doll site is something else. I think there was a thread here about that not too long ago (or there certainly should have been). For the minimalist, the RealDoll torso:
Due to a high number of requests, Abyss Creations is now offering the Realdoll torso. This torso starts just above the belly button, and terminates at mid thigh. It includes both Vaginal and Anal entries, and is made with the same high grade materials as the dolls. Available in all skin tones with your choice of pubic hair style and color. Also, if you purchase the torso for evaluation purposes and then decide to order a Realdoll, you may deduct $500.00 from the price of the doll.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:13 AM
51: Isn't Farber already in NY? Would you be flying him somewhere else?
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:14 AM
Gary lives in Colorado.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:16 AM
I started to read the italicized paragrapn in 52 out loud to Mr. B. and he commanded, "STOP, please, I don't need that..."
Hehehe.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:16 AM
I reckon Farber lives closer to the heart of our great country.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:16 AM
One interesting point about arranged marriages is that it's not simply up to the couple itself to define the expectations of a relationship; thus the success of arranged marriages might be partly attributable to the social norms and expectations that are prevalent in contexts where these marriages are common, not to the arrangement per se. So arrangement in other contexts might not reap the perceived rewards. (This is sort of like Bernard Williams' point about how you can't really live the life of a medieval knight even if you act in all the right ways.)
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:18 AM
B, if I recall correctly, you can even get torsos like that (maybe not from that company) that are modeled on the privates of various pornstars.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:18 AM
That's not a torso. A torso has shoulders.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:18 AM
Shoulders? Who needs shoulders? Tell me, are any entries associated with shoulders?
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:19 AM
Well, there's tit-fucking.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:21 AM
are any entries associated with shoulders?
If you have a decent neckhole on it.
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for this comment.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:21 AM
You made me laugh out loud.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:22 AM
Jeez, I can see I'm not creative enough in these matters. There go my dreams of joining the elite ranks of sex-toy design.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:22 AM
I'm not sure I even did the reading the day that a Williams piece discussing that idea was assigned, but I remember coming out of it convinced that if I wanted to go be a Samurai in the outback of Australia, it'd work out all right. This was in class with a guy who I (very jokingly!) suggested that you punch in the face at the APA.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:23 AM
Clearly they did some test-marketing, and found out that 'torso' was more appealing to customers than 'free-standing ass'.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:28 AM
Or else they're hoping that horny impulse buyers won't read carefully enough to realize that "torso" doesn't include tits.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:29 AM
Now I'm picturing someone turning the box upside down, shaking it, peering into the corners: "There's gotta be tits in here someplace!"
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:32 AM
Wow. I'd always thought that there was nothing that would make a woman run out of your house faster than a RealDoll. I was wrong.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:32 AM
Well, you know, the hole is greater than some of the parts.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:35 AM
How creepy would a closet of lined-up Real Dolls be?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:35 AM
So arrangement in other contexts might not reap the perceived rewards.
I wonder what you're thinking of, specifically. The "arranged" marriages I know (arranged not in the sense of "compelled," but in the sense of being married after meeting a couple of times) are mostly here, in the US, and they seem to work basically as they do in Iran--what counts as "context" for a marriage isn't, in most dealings, a very big circle, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:35 AM
Less creepy than the company owner's tale of receiving one for repair that had been severely mutilated. I consider myself staunchly uncreepable and that made even my skin crawl.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:37 AM
Yeah, it's probably unwise to assume that there is some limitation on the extent of sexual creepiness.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:38 AM
D'oh! Ellen informs me that I was mistaken about John being able to stay in our guest room next Tuesday. Sorry -- hopefully somebody else has the space.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:39 AM
I am now creeped out and am going to stop thinking about these things.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:41 AM
One of my cousins has been trying to go the arranged marriage route (with the help of his dad, whose idea it may have been). He's in the US but this has involved a couple of trips to the old country to meet a prospective bride and her family. It doesn't seem to have worked out, though.
Also, if you're looking for a Soviet-era silent film about a Jewish matchmaker - and who isn't? - I recommend this.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:47 AM
There was an interesting article in salon about Real Dolls a while back. Goes into rather surprising detail.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:49 AM
I didn't realize you had an old country, eb. A guy I went to high school with had an arranged marriage, but his bride had also grown up in the US.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:51 AM
if you're looking for a Soviet-era silent film
Also, if you're looking for a Second Reich era silent film with a Mineshaft-worthy title, I recommend this.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:52 AM
It's not quite my old country, what with my being born here (and with mixed marriages and all, who's to say what I'd call an old country?), but he was born there and lived there for part of his childhood, so I think it counts as his.
Mainly I didn't want to give the impression that he's just some American trying to pick up a foreign bride.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 11:56 AM
Tits can be purchased separately, in singles ($29.99 each) or in pairs ($49.99, a savings a $10, or $5 per tit). They claim:
Boobyballs are the ultimate stress reliever!
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:07 PM
Gary seems like such a NYC type of guy. Hmmm.
Anyway, while I am unable to attend the unfogged world tour stop in NYC, I do have a spare bedroom for Mr. Emerson or anyone else who is interested. I live in NJ and the city is about a 45 min. drive. There are also buses and trains available. Allergy alert: we have 4 cats.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:11 PM
I'm still contemplating whether or not to come. Can I come in disguise?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:14 PM
Speaking of things likely to make a woman run out of your house, this is some interesting furniture.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:15 PM
80: That goes here.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:15 PM
Tia, you should definitely come, even in disguise if you have to. I'm sure no one at the meetup will reveal anything that you don't want revealed.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:17 PM
Tia, you could claim to be a lurker and then, having dazzled everyone with your charm and wit and uncommon grace, slip out into the night hinting every so slyly that one day you might decide to comment.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:28 PM
I actually thought of that ruse too. It had the advantage of preventing my lack of meatspace charm and grace from prejudicing my online persona. But a wig and some Groucho Marx glasses, and shedding some of the distinctive items of clothing I usually wear, might allay my biggest concern, which is being casually recognized.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:34 PM
I will only recognize you with the utmost formality.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:40 PM
Are we talking visiting cards, or parliamentary procedure?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:42 PM
Tia, I see a potential problem re: recognition. According to the Salon article on RealDolls mentioned upstream, there's a 'Tia' doll.
Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:43 PM
It seems as though Tia is thinking of coming with a moustache.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:43 PM
Opposites attract.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:46 PM
I could wear a moustache, too.
Hadn't thought of that.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:47 PM
It had the advantage of preventing my lack of meatspace charm and grace from prejudicing my online persona. But a wig and some Groucho Marx glasses, and shedding some of the distinctive items of clothing I usually wear, might allay my biggest concern, which is being casually recognized.
May I suggest the curly blond wig, the double-breasted raincoat and the round golden horn?
That is, Harpo. Not only do you not have to wear a mustache, you can also get away with not talking at all and instead merely smile broadly and honk enthusiastically at opportune moments.
ash
['And it's very anonymous.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:49 PM
I really want to know what Tia does, now.
Police officer?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:50 PM
Pickpocket?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:52 PM
I run a mental institution and you all, unbeknownst to you, are patients.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:52 PM
1000/10!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:54 PM
I run a mental institution and you all, unbeknownst to you, are patients.
Another reason to go as Harpo!
ash
['Spot the Looney!']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:58 PM
"unbeknownst", she says.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 12:59 PM
I run a mental institution and you all, unbeknownst to you, are patients.
This is going to turn into a sequel to The Three Christs of Ypsilanti, I suspect.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:00 PM
Also, my thread is, at least at time of posting, longer than Ogged's.
As Marilyn Monroe once might have said, it's not how long it grows, it's who's growing it.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:05 PM
Apostropher, someone who runs around shouting, "No, Apostropher is the hero!" does not get the asylum-keeper delusion; the behavior is incompatible with the belief. Only I am the psychiatrist, and I need you to stick with one pathology or your treatment will never progress. Now where did I put those clamps?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:15 PM
They're still on my nipples.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:19 PM
That doesn't help. Where did she put your nipples?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:20 PM
Ah, good. So absent minded these days. Must be the vitamins the nurse comes around with on her courtesy call.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:20 PM
Last evening we were blogging and you broke my mind.
I forgive you. I went insane and
I wanted to be here in the wards, where you are the doctor!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:23 PM
shedding some of the distinctive items of clothing I usually wear,
This get together is sounding better and better all the time!
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:24 PM
eb wins!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:25 PM
This Is Just to Say
I have eaten
the vitamins
that were in
the pillcup
and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast
Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so calming
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:27 PM
That brings back memories.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 1:30 PM
Is Ash coming to this thing? I'd like to hear how he implements the bracketed sub-comments in real life.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:03 AM
I'm under the impression, though I haven't checked, that ash is not near NY. My guess as to the answer to your question: ventriloquist dummy.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:06 AM
That would make sense. I couldn't figure out for the longest time why everybody was talking about Iowa yesterday (and the day before?) -- I thought maybe that was somebody's mistaken idea of Zizka's location -- it took me until this morning to retrace my tracks and figure out they were talking about the Invisible Adjunct, and now I'm all excited at the prospect of meeting her.
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:10 AM
Ogged, if that's the case, I'd have trouble deciding whether to punch the puppet or him.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:12 AM
Jeremy,
Aha! I also was using the postal definition of IA. Thanks for clearing that up.
Posted by Tripp | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:12 AM
Ogged, if that's the case, I'd have trouble deciding whether to punch the puppet or him.
Haven't you already admitted to being smaller than Wolfson? Go for the puppet, Adam. At least it'll be close.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:14 AM
While I disavow SCMT's gratuitous meanness, I do remind you, Adam, that when last we met, I asked you if you wanted to fight, and you said "no."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:16 AM
Meanness? Whatever happened to the duty of charitable interpretation? I made the comment in hopes of maintaining Kotsko's health. If anything, it was like a written hug of friendship for Kotsko.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:24 AM
Of course you're right, Timbot. Adam, you know that you're but a wisp of a man; fight the dummy.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:28 AM
</hug>
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 9:30 AM
Pardon moi.
Adam, you know that you're but a wisp of a man; fight the dummy.
I thought I was!
Posted by Not Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 12:37 PM
I'm under the impression, though I haven't checked, that ash is not near NY.
Check. Armsmasher and I share a hometown.
My guess as to the answer to your question: ventriloquist dummy.
What happened to sotto voce muttering?
Ogged, if that's the case, I'd have trouble deciding whether to punch the puppet or him.
Is there some academic rite of passage thing I'm missing here? "My degree must taste blood 'ere I sheath it again!"
I made the comment in hopes of maintaining Kotsko's health. If anything, it was like a written hug of friendship for Kotsko.
Seems sensible to me. (Kind, too!)
I promise I won't go lest Kotsko go into a frothing theological beserker rage or something. Not that I was going anyways. It'd take a while to hitchhike to NY.
If it pains Kotsko deeply not to know tho, I promise to read a comment from somewhere aloud and record it as an .mp3.
ash
['The bracketed comments are audible as such. I think.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 7-05 1:23 PM
Ogged, I didn't realize you were asking if I ever wanted to fight in general -- I thought you were referring to a fight with you, right then.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 6:58 PM
I believe that the offer was to fight over ME, and Kotsko knows that I disdain such hypermasculine foolishness.
Anyway, if anyone wants to fight over me at this do, y'all can challenge my husband.
xo!
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 7:28 PM
For the record: you don't want to mess with the Mormons.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 8:31 PM
You mean organizationally or individually?
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 8:33 PM
Since I'm still getting over Under the Banner of Heaven, I believe you.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 8:49 PM
We've got wicked mud-wrestling moves.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 9:04 PM
I would do anything for Bitch
I would do anything for Bitch
Yes, I would do anything for Bitch
But I won't fight Ogged.
No I won't fight Ogged.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 9:11 PM
No I won't fight Ogged.
A noble redefinition of 'anything'.
ash
['Consulting the dictionary is the better part of valor.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:19 PM
Surely you're familiar with Meat Loaf?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:28 PM
(Or is it Meatloaf?)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:29 PM
Google is preferring Meat Loaf. And as of yet, I've not turned up an LDS connection, for which I'm strangely thankful.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:46 PM
Ah, a Meatloaf song redone in my honor. I'm so touched.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:48 PM
Surely you're familiar with Meat Loaf?
If that was directed at me, the answer is: no. Not my thing. I know who Karen Carpenter is, but I would cross several continents to avoid having to listening to music. I'm not actually against Meatloaf in that way, but neither am I for it. Or him. Sorry.
ash
['Got any Motorhead?']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 10:58 PM
Isn't that the song in those Dr Pepper ads?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 11:12 PM
to avoid having to listening to music.
Any music?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12- 8-05 11:35 PM
I find it satisfying at least that Ash didn't get that very obvious cultural reference.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 12- 9-05 8:41 AM
Any music?
If it involves Karen Carpenter.
I find it satisfying at least that Ash didn't get that very obvious cultural reference.
Yay! Revel in your (psuedo-)insular hipness! You have achieved your very own nirvana of personal ingroupness and are now fit to write your own gossip column and people will actually enjoy hearing tales of your future plastic surgeries! Rejoice! You have made it!
ash
['Movin' on up...to the sky...']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 2:07 AM
Any music?
If it involves Karen Carpenter.
I find it satisfying at least that Ash didn't get that very obvious cultural reference.
Yay! Revel in your (psuedo-)insular hipness! You have achieved your very own nirvana of personal ingroupness and are now fit to write your own gossip column and people will actually enjoy hearing tales of your future plastic surgeries! Rejoice! You have made it!
ash
['Movin' on up...to the sky...']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 2:08 AM
Well, that was an exciting doublepost, since I hit the button once.
ash
['Twice as much for your entertainment dollar.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 2:45 AM
Well, that was an exciting doublepost, since I hit the button once.
ash
['Twice as much for your entertainment dollar.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 2:45 AM
Well, that was an exciting doublepost, since I hit the button once.
ash
['Twice as much for your entertainment dollar.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 2:46 AM
You need to settle down, ash my man.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 4:01 AM
You need to settle down, ash my man.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 4:02 AM
Heh.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 4:02 AM
ash, they were "movin' on up to the east side, to a deluxe apartment in the sky." But if you shift your ellipsis a couple words to the right, you'll be right as rain.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 6:31 AM
Heh.
Did it actually doublepost on you Wolfson. Cuz I hit that second one once and it triple posted. (I started to post 'reeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrbbbbbbb' but thought better of it.)
But if you shift your ellipsis a couple words to the right, you'll be right as rain.
But I don't want to!
Well we're movin on up, To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.
Fish don't fry in the kitchen;
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in teh big leagues
Gettin' our turn at bat.
As long as we live, it's you and me baby
There ain't nothin wrong with that.
Well we're movin on up,
To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.
ash
['I like my version better, since that's the way I hear in on the third pass.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 12-10-05 12:07 PM