I may be betraying how long it's been since I competed, but by "pullout," do you mean underwater pull-through and kick recovery? That is, the rule used to be (and I assume still is) that you could pull your hands past your chest while underwater exactly once on each pushoff (i.e., after a start or a turn). Your second stroke could not come past your chest, and your head had to break the water at the start of that stroke.
If this is what you mean, the stroke count includes all and only the strokes after the pullout (what I inelegantly call "underwater pull and kick").
and 6-7 per 25 yd length is amazing. No doubt they have incredible kicks.
Thanks, Phred! I'm a stud! Yes, that's what I mean by pullout (it's what all the kids are calling it these days), and I'm in a 25 yard pool, and was doing 5 per length when holding the glide, and 6 swimming easy. Probably add one stroke to each count for a 25 meter pool. Woot!
(Oh, and there was just a rule change a few months ago to allow one dolphin kick during the pullout.)
"(Oh, and there was just a rule change a few months ago to allow one dolphin kick during the pullout.)"
Damn kids have it easy. At least I got the benefit of one freestyle stroke going into the backstroke turn. In high school we had to actually touch the wall with one hand, without the shoulders going past vertical, on each turn. This led to any number of silly-looking, awkward, and ultimately pointless permutations. Then again, what did I care - I only swam fly, free, and the occasional technically-inept IM.
Can someone explain to me why the breaststroke (or any non-freestyle stroke) shouldn't the be treated as akin to synchronized swimming, ice skating, or rythmic gymnastics? All seem like seriously athletic events whose distinction from the real, underlying sport is that they are hyper stylized.
This is a little bit snark, but mostly it's a real question. Why do we have anything other than freestyle?
Now that I think about it, I believe we used to try and sneak a dolphin kick in on the pullout. If you undulate a little bit as you begin the pull, the kick can kind of blend into the whole body movement.
sctm - for the same reason that hurdles and steeplechase aren't just stylized running, I guess. Same with shooting different weapons for accuracy, skiing nordic v. diagonal/skating, short v. long-track speec skating, judo v. g-r v. freestyle wresting, clay court v. grass v. asphalt, beach v. court v-ball . Others, too, I guess. I won't defend it too deeply, for it does seem like there's a proliferation of sports. But in fact it seems like the vast majority of sports contain variations that are just highly stylized. Besides, swim meets are really long; something has to take up the time.
Seriously, I think it's a historical thing. Check out this comment to the post SB linked. Breaststroke is what they swam in Europe, until they learned the crawl from Native Americans. Butterfly actually evolved from a loophole in the breaststroke rules, and only became it's own official stroke about 50 years ago.
It makes some sense, if you think about--since breaststoke is the only stroke that lets you keep your head out of the water and see where you're going--that it would be the original stroke.
"The history of breaststroke goes back to the Stone Age, as for example pictures in the cave of swimmers near Wadi Sora in the southwestern part of Egypt near Libya. The leg action of the breaststroke may have originated by imitating the swimming action of frogs. Depictions of a variant of breaststroke are found in Babylonian bas-reliefs and Assyrian wall drawings."
From Wiki, which I'll remember exists next time I have this sort of question.
Thanks, also, Phred - I think I'm also responding to the proliferation of sports.
Actually, I used to harbor suspicions that breastroke was for people to weak to do fly. That changed when breastroker John Moffett kicked (read - utterly destroyed and humiliated) my skinny little 14 year old butt in the 200 fly. It was prelims in an early season meet, he had already been an Olympian, and no one was paying attention. But it was embarrassing nonetheless.
I was DQ'd in a meet when I was 12 or something for doing a dolphin kick underwater on the breastroke leg of a 200IM. The problem with that was that I never did dolphin kicks because they were illegal, and I seriously doubt I did one then. But no amount of arguing got me reinstated. Otherwise it would have been by far my best IM.
As I quit swimming soon after, the memory has never left me.
Actually, I used to harbor suspicions that breastroke was for people to weak to do fly.
My coach always told me that I should have been better at fly - it was my worst stroke - because I had good breastroke technique and the underwater motions for both strokes are pretty close, but I think my arms were too weak for fly. I suppose weight training would have helped, but I was swimming only recreationally. (I also quite before I really started to grow.)
No, but the old country - on that side of the family - was once within the Japanese empire (older relatives grew up learning Japanese among other languages, but younger ones didn't). I could have sworn I'd implied what the country was/might be, months ago, in comments about food.
Cross country. I don't know why, but I never ran track. I'd probably have been a better runner had I run year-round. I did a lot of hiking back then though. I wonder what happened to my outdoorsiness?
You know, nationalist politics has never been a big deal with my family (as far as I know, it may be different with the few relatives who are still there; most came to the US.) I suspect it's related to the fact that they were in Taiwan long before the Chinese civil war.
The difference between that dude and even pretty good ncaa swimmers (those good enough to, say, letter at SEC, Big 10 schools and the like) is just night and day.
"Are you thinking of something in particular phred, or just his general awesomeness?"
Well, the original thought was something like: I had a pretty decent career, and I also worked pretty damn hard at it. But I had absolutely no hope of approaching the really fast people. The further thought was that there is are surprisingly few people at the tippy top of swimming (or any sport), given the large number people with exrtaordinary talents and capacity to for work. You might say the same about Jordan, Johnson, LT, Jim Brown, etc. Nothing profound, just awed.
I only started thinking about this recently, but the Bell curve thins out on the wings. So at a certain point, you have Magic and Bird and Wilt and Jordan, and that's about it.
And actually you can trust the results pretty well, for the US past about 1970 at least, because almost everyone in the US has a chance to play basketball, and the system for scavenging up talent is very efficient.
On the other hand, in long-distance running there is still the chance that some African super-runner got missed 30 years ago. Filbert Bayi of Tanzania was alredy a world class runner the day he was discovered around 1972.
I think that the bell curve may be a bit more crowded at the stupid-slow end. I don't think that there's a single individual who dominates basketball ineptness the way Jordan dominates basketball talent.
I don't think that there's a single individual who dominates basketball ineptness the way Jordan dominates basketball talent.
That's not true. In fact, I could give you a name, but Bridgeplate would be all, "you just screwed yourself, dummy," and he'd be right, so this: in high school, there was a kid who practiced every single day--I don't think there was ever a time I was playing and didn't see him after school, and he never got even a little bit better. D knows who I'm talking about. Now, I'd argue that this--practicing and not improving--is the very nadir of talent; worse than simple untuteled incompetence.
Also, this, "Magic and Bird and Wilt and Jordan," indicates that Emerson either doesn't love the NBA or hates America. There are a passel of players that you could fit between some of those guys, and a significantly greater number who had the requisite physical tools to fit in there.
The list I gave was based on individual performance times longevity. On their best days quite a few people might have matched these. I don't want to hear the crap about Russell being better than Chamberlain because he was a better team player, though.
The NRO does seem to competing to find the last guy on the stupidity bell curve, according to DeLong, but I've known stupider individuals.
You have to separate Wilt from the rest; centers are a breed apart, and can't really be judged with the other guys. You'd have to include Oscar Robertson, minimally, in the conversation, and I think Bird is going to be pushed farther and farther down the ranks as time goes on. How, for example do you really separate Bird and Duncan? There have been a number of high fliers with Michael's athletic abilities (Nique, VC, David Thompson, Kobe, etc.). You could make a pretty good argument that McHale should
have been better than Bird; I think Bird believed that.
And I now think that LeBron is going to be the best of the lot, when all is said and done.
Actually, I stopped keeping track about 10 years ago.
Bird seemed dominant even against athletically better players. However, in some respects he was the weak one on the list.
I'm not that big a BB fan, and regardless of the individual names, the end of the curve is pretty thin, especially when you consider that at any given time there are several million basketball players in the 20-35 year old age bracket. For example, there are guys who've been NBA All Stars several times who are unquestionably a step below the top guys.
I think you're supposed to ask questions about breast stroking down on the Marilyn Monroe thread. Not sure -- so confused...
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 2:37 PM
Natatio interrupto is not a reliable method of breath control.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 2:50 PM
I may be betraying how long it's been since I competed, but by "pullout," do you mean underwater pull-through and kick recovery? That is, the rule used to be (and I assume still is) that you could pull your hands past your chest while underwater exactly once on each pushoff (i.e., after a start or a turn). Your second stroke could not come past your chest, and your head had to break the water at the start of that stroke.
If this is what you mean, the stroke count includes all and only the strokes after the pullout (what I inelegantly call "underwater pull and kick").
and 6-7 per 25 yd length is amazing. No doubt they have incredible kicks.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 2:56 PM
Thanks, Phred! I'm a stud! Yes, that's what I mean by pullout (it's what all the kids are calling it these days), and I'm in a 25 yard pool, and was doing 5 per length when holding the glide, and 6 swimming easy. Probably add one stroke to each count for a 25 meter pool. Woot!
(Oh, and there was just a rule change a few months ago to allow one dolphin kick during the pullout.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 2:59 PM
(But I haven't incorporated the dolphin kick yet.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:03 PM
"(Oh, and there was just a rule change a few months ago to allow one dolphin kick during the pullout.)"
Damn kids have it easy. At least I got the benefit of one freestyle stroke going into the backstroke turn. In high school we had to actually touch the wall with one hand, without the shoulders going past vertical, on each turn. This led to any number of silly-looking, awkward, and ultimately pointless permutations. Then again, what did I care - I only swam fly, free, and the occasional technically-inept IM.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:08 PM
Can someone explain to me why the breaststroke (or any non-freestyle stroke) shouldn't the be treated as akin to synchronized swimming, ice skating, or rythmic gymnastics? All seem like seriously athletic events whose distinction from the real, underlying sport is that they are hyper stylized.
This is a little bit snark, but mostly it's a real question. Why do we have anything other than freestyle?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:10 PM
Now that I think about it, I believe we used to try and sneak a dolphin kick in on the pullout. If you undulate a little bit as you begin the pull, the kick can kind of blend into the whole body movement.
That last was me too, clearly.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:10 PM
I hear the old-timers had to swim uphill.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:10 PM
Tim, don't think I don't notice that you waited until I said I was good at it to slam the breaststroke.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:13 PM
No, but seriously. Fly actually looks cool, and we've all floated on our back. But how do you come up with breaststroke? It's just weird to me.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:16 PM
Maybe Tim's a fast hopper.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:17 PM
I have had to swim upstream, which is uphill.
sctm - for the same reason that hurdles and steeplechase aren't just stylized running, I guess. Same with shooting different weapons for accuracy, skiing nordic v. diagonal/skating, short v. long-track speec skating, judo v. g-r v. freestyle wresting, clay court v. grass v. asphalt, beach v. court v-ball . Others, too, I guess. I won't defend it too deeply, for it does seem like there's a proliferation of sports. But in fact it seems like the vast majority of sports contain variations that are just highly stylized. Besides, swim meets are really long; something has to take up the time.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:22 PM
I was only going to concede that later, SB.
Seriously, I think it's a historical thing. Check out this comment to the post SB linked. Breaststroke is what they swam in Europe, until they learned the crawl from Native Americans. Butterfly actually evolved from a loophole in the breaststroke rules, and only became it's own official stroke about 50 years ago.
It makes some sense, if you think about--since breaststoke is the only stroke that lets you keep your head out of the water and see where you're going--that it would be the original stroke.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:23 PM
Huh:
From Wiki, which I'll remember exists next time I have this sort of question.Thanks, also, Phred - I think I'm also responding to the proliferation of sports.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:26 PM
Actually, I used to harbor suspicions that breastroke was for people to weak to do fly. That changed when breastroker John Moffett kicked (read - utterly destroyed and humiliated) my skinny little 14 year old butt in the 200 fly. It was prelims in an early season meet, he had already been an Olympian, and no one was paying attention. But it was embarrassing nonetheless.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:29 PM
I was DQ'd in a meet when I was 12 or something for doing a dolphin kick underwater on the breastroke leg of a 200IM. The problem with that was that I never did dolphin kicks because they were illegal, and I seriously doubt I did one then. But no amount of arguing got me reinstated. Otherwise it would have been by far my best IM.
As I quit swimming soon after, the memory has never left me.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:33 PM
Cheater.
Does that mean the old country is Japan?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:36 PM
Actually, I used to harbor suspicions that breastroke was for people to weak to do fly.
My coach always told me that I should have been better at fly - it was my worst stroke - because I had good breastroke technique and the underwater motions for both strokes are pretty close, but I think my arms were too weak for fly. I suppose weight training would have helped, but I was swimming only recreationally. (I also quite before I really started to grow.)
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:41 PM
You took up track, didn't you?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:44 PM
Does that mean the old country is Japan?
No, but the old country - on that side of the family - was once within the Japanese empire (older relatives grew up learning Japanese among other languages, but younger ones didn't). I could have sworn I'd implied what the country was/might be, months ago, in comments about food.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:44 PM
Cross country. I don't know why, but I never ran track. I'd probably have been a better runner had I run year-round. I did a lot of hiking back then though. I wonder what happened to my outdoorsiness?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:47 PM
Damn it, I can't keep track of all y'all, eb.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:50 PM
I should have noticed that country reference.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:52 PM
I wouldn't expect people to remember it, I'm only suggesting that the info is out there somewhere.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 3:58 PM
Oh, and having looked it up, I see I did more than imply. So enough with the games: Taiwan.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:01 PM
You're Chinese!
Kidding.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:04 PM
Phred, you can see video of the pullout under the new rules here Wow.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:05 PM
You know, nationalist politics has never been a big deal with my family (as far as I know, it may be different with the few relatives who are still there; most came to the US.) I suspect it's related to the fact that they were in Taiwan long before the Chinese civil war.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:09 PM
It's going to have to suffice, eb, since I don't know any other ways to needle the Taiwanese.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:10 PM
re: vid
The difference between that dude and even pretty good ncaa swimmers (those good enough to, say, letter at SEC, Big 10 schools and the like) is just night and day.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:13 PM
I can't think of anything, either. In that case
How dare you say that!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:13 PM
32 to 30, obviously.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:15 PM
You gonna stop me, eb? You and what circuit board?
Oh yeah, I had one saved up for you.
Is this getting too nasty? Can you handle it?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:16 PM
Are you thinking of something in particular phred, or just his general awesomeness?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:19 PM
You and what circuit board?
Is that the best you got?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:20 PM
How does 17 indicate "Japan"? Is this one of ogged's amazing leaps of perception like Ya-Ya Moo?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:20 PM
Did you watch the Olympics?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:21 PM
Must all comments be questions, now?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:21 PM
Would I have got the leap from 17 to 18 if I'd watched the Olympics?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:23 PM
No.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:23 PM
Is that the best you got?
Unfortunately, yes. Now I'm really all out.
Matt, the Japanese breaststroker Kosuke Kitajima is notorious for cheating by using a dolphin kick in the breaststroke.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:24 PM
41 to 39—or is it?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:24 PM
"Are you thinking of something in particular phred, or just his general awesomeness?"
Well, the original thought was something like: I had a pretty decent career, and I also worked pretty damn hard at it. But I had absolutely no hope of approaching the really fast people. The further thought was that there is are surprisingly few people at the tippy top of swimming (or any sport), given the large number people with exrtaordinary talents and capacity to for work. You might say the same about Jordan, Johnson, LT, Jim Brown, etc. Nothing profound, just awed.
Posted by phred | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:37 PM
I can't believe where this thread has not gone. Does this mean that my mind is more perverse than all y'all's? (Practicing my southern today ...)
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:40 PM
prfgrrl -
It's the low hanging fruit problem.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:43 PM
Good swimming technique ideally keeps you out of the gutters.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:44 PM
Phred, I have that feeling a lot when I watch swimming videos. Humbling, for sure.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:45 PM
true, but that's never stopped anyone before. anyway, back to lurk mode.
Posted by profgrrrrl | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 4:55 PM
Re Phred 44:
I only started thinking about this recently, but the Bell curve thins out on the wings. So at a certain point, you have Magic and Bird and Wilt and Jordan, and that's about it.
And actually you can trust the results pretty well, for the US past about 1970 at least, because almost everyone in the US has a chance to play basketball, and the system for scavenging up talent is very efficient.
On the other hand, in long-distance running there is still the chance that some African super-runner got missed 30 years ago. Filbert Bayi of Tanzania was alredy a world class runner the day he was discovered around 1972.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:26 PM
I think that the bell curve may be a bit more crowded at the stupid-slow end. I don't think that there's a single individual who dominates basketball ineptness the way Jordan dominates basketball talent.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:28 PM
I don't think that there's a single individual who dominates basketball ineptness the way Jordan dominates basketball talent.
That's not true. In fact, I could give you a name, but Bridgeplate would be all, "you just screwed yourself, dummy," and he'd be right, so this: in high school, there was a kid who practiced every single day--I don't think there was ever a time I was playing and didn't see him after school, and he never got even a little bit better. D knows who I'm talking about. Now, I'd argue that this--practicing and not improving--is the very nadir of talent; worse than simple untuteled incompetence.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:33 PM
Look, I did my best!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:35 PM
Also, this, "Magic and Bird and Wilt and Jordan," indicates that Emerson either doesn't love the NBA or hates America. There are a passel of players that you could fit between some of those guys, and a significantly greater number who had the requisite physical tools to fit in there.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:37 PM
I'm willing to listen to suggestions, Alias Tim.
The list I gave was based on individual performance times longevity. On their best days quite a few people might have matched these. I don't want to hear the crap about Russell being better than Chamberlain because he was a better team player, though.
The NRO does seem to competing to find the last guy on the stupidity bell curve, according to DeLong, but I've known stupider individuals.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:43 PM
Emerson:
You have to separate Wilt from the rest; centers are a breed apart, and can't really be judged with the other guys. You'd have to include Oscar Robertson, minimally, in the conversation, and I think Bird is going to be pushed farther and farther down the ranks as time goes on. How, for example do you really separate Bird and Duncan? There have been a number of high fliers with Michael's athletic abilities (Nique, VC, David Thompson, Kobe, etc.). You could make a pretty good argument that McHale should
have been better than Bird; I think Bird believed that.
And I now think that LeBron is going to be the best of the lot, when all is said and done.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 5:59 PM
Actually, I stopped keeping track about 10 years ago.
Bird seemed dominant even against athletically better players. However, in some respects he was the weak one on the list.
I'm not that big a BB fan, and regardless of the individual names, the end of the curve is pretty thin, especially when you consider that at any given time there are several million basketball players in the 20-35 year old age bracket. For example, there are guys who've been NBA All Stars several times who are unquestionably a step below the top guys.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12- 6-05 6:11 PM