Obviously, it referred to characteristics associated with feminine men--and I'd like to hang on to that, because we have to be able to keep making fun of them. We just need to drop the further association of feminine men with homosexuality.
What I love about this blog is that you keep on teeing up things I want to argue about. Sadly, I should be working instead, but let me at least start.
Why do you have to be able to make fun of feminine men? No, seriously, why? (Don't take this personally, every straight guy in the country feels the same way, when I say (as I am about to) that mocking men for being feminine is both misogynist and oppressive to men I don't mean that this reveals anything particular about your flaws, just that society is all screwed up here.)
I run a little on the butch side -- not terribly so, I just can't get the hang of earrings, makeup, heels, matching clothes, etc. No one gives me much, if any, crap about this and what there is is for dressing badly, not dressing masculinely. Women dressing masculinely is actually seen as kind of statusy and cool, in a lot of ways. So we're not worried about gender transgression in any simple way.
What is so (contaminating? risible? wrong?) about dressing or acting in a feminine way, for a man? Why is it so important that it be mocked?
I was at a standup comedy show on Wednesday night, and will now proceed to mis-remember a joke told there.
Comedian: I just joined a new gym. On Tuesday I took a spinning class, on Wednesday I took Pilates, and on Thursday I took shaping. On Friday, I woke up and realized I was gay.
The guy had many better jokes than that, and think I'm messing up the punchline which is meant to set up the audience expectation that he woke up feeling sore, or in much better shape, or something like that.
I only ever see men in boot camp, martial arts, and (occasionally) spinning classes. Especially in this instance, the word "gay" is inappropriate because even the large population of gay men at my gym avoid the classes.
For straight men, the logic of avoiding an activity that is overwhelmingly female because it feels gay seems to be a counterproductive strategy.
Well, yeah. The whole "Man. Manly man. Must separate oneself from all that is feminine" often comes down to separating oneself from women, which seems, offhandedly, screwy. What goes on with this?
I think what "gay" used to mean, back when it was acceptable to use it as an insult, was, essentially, "homosexual." Could be why "twee" is not as satisfying.
Well, yeah. The whole "Man. Manly man. Must separate oneself from all that is feminine" often comes down to separating oneself from women, which seems, offhandedly, screwy. What goes on with this?
It's because hanging out with women in such settings rather dramaticaly diminishes the odds of someday fucking them.
And, even if it doesn't get a guy laid, I would think a guy would find watching a bunch of girls in a strength training class a more entertaining way to pass the time than watching the sweaty guys in the weight room. Hell, I'm a girl and I spend most of the class staring at the ass of the girl in front of me because there's nowhere else to look.
The straight guys in my dance classes were not unlaid, but then, as a puritan, I wasn't really in the gossip loop. It is one of the reasons I want my honey out of his dance-class-accompanying p-t gig, though.
That's just not true. Think of the classic 'men won't dance' complaint -- that's about not looking "gay". But dancing will get a guy laid.
Dancing acceptably well will get a guy laid. Dancing like a spazz is the surest way to blow an otherwise promising chance at booty.
Guys who say dancing is gay are guys who can't dance. Amongst cultural groups where male dancing ability is common, dancing is not considered gay. Black and Hispanic guys, for instance, generaly have no qualms with getting down.
Learning to dance okay isn't hard, but men don't seek out the competitive advantage inherent in learning how. It's completely a situation where the importance of not looking as though one has feminine skills or tastes outweighs the importance of getting laid.
And, even if it doesn't get a guy laid, I would think a guy would find watching a bunch of girls in a strength training class a more entertaining way to pass the time than watching the sweaty guys in the weight room.
17: Obviously the origin of the usage is in stereotypes of gay men, but what I mean is that people who would use it in this sense (in my experience) have generally not been personally homophobic, whereas people who use the word "fag" generally have been.
How 'bout femme? (I like exercise classes -- though I do not go to the gym these days, the best shape I have ever been in was when I was taking Tae Kwon Do classes, and second-best was when I was taking aerobics classes. I don't consider myself femme truthfully, or particularly gay, so I don't know that the descriptor applies very well to exercise classes. Now off to read the thread.)
19: I didn't see enough of the second guy to tell, but the first and third definitely have had gymnastics training. The first has probably done martial arts as well.
Parkour. You'd think most people who do it have some serious physical & gymnastic training, because jumping across an empty elevator shaft into a small opening, say, doesn't leave much room for missing your mark.
After reading the thread -- I find myself identifying most strongly with what LizardBreath and JackMormon are saying. (I should note that this is for me by no means an unusual experience of a blog comments thread.)
I think the reason Ted alludes to a timeframe is it could be a generational difference. "Gay" may have started out as meaning "something a homosexual would do" but most people my age (20s) learned the slang "gay" to mean a variation of "lame" in grade school before they even knew homosexuality existed.
It's so simple: the women in the exercise classes, being (more than) a little put off by dudes trying to score, are not good at making said dudes feel like hot stuff. The gay dudes in the weight room, being dudes trying to score, are GREAT at making dudes feel like hot stuff.
So, aerobics classes are gay because they interfere with the gay sex? That's the first time I've ever seen a 'lucus a non lucendo' etymology in the wild.
"gay" relied on a certain homodisperagia to seperate groups ("gay" and not "gay"), which is why it was psychologically satifsying. "Lame", I think, is acctually a more accurate description of what was meant, but because anybody can be lame, and it's an accidental instead of an inherent quality, it is much less satisfying.
Labs's 37 reminds me that I, too, would probably not consider exercise classes "gay" in the sense we've been discussing, which leads me to the further thought that there may be a generational difference even among the commenters here, with Ogged and Joe O thinking of one meaning and Labs, Becks and I thinking of another. I'm not sure, though.
The closest substitute for "gay" in it's junior high sense that I can come up with is "retarded", which has its own set of issues.
39 - On the rare occasions that I've seen a guy try to take an exercise class, the women haven't shunned him or assumed he's trying to score. They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
I would like to strongly second LB's comments at 3 and 6, and might add that this was the source of my reaction to the "stylish men are fuckwits" post. Not only do I not think it's imperative that we maintain the right to mock men for being feminine, I think it's pretty important that we don't. I'm just going to lamely echo LB here, because she already said what needed to be said and better, but mocking feminine men is mostly about reconfirming that feminine qualities are weak, undesirable, and contaminating. Feminine men are class traitors, failing to behave in a way that would continue to reaffirm the separation between the priveleged class--straight men--and everyone else. Masculine women used to be seen as uppity, but as LB notes, that's relaxing, and we all should be doing what we can to make sure that men have the same freedom to borrow freely from variously gendered behaviors and costumes, because they're doing us all a service by helping to break down these boundaries.
I've always heard it as "canis a non canendo," but note that Labs apparently rejects Ogged's characterization of aerobics as gay so it isn't an etymology. It still doesn't make any sense, though.
They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
This is exactly what I would expect, and it is one helluva reason to not go. One would feel so out of place*. It's also a big reason, I suspect, with why guys don't learn to dance. We don't like upsetting The Order Of Things, and many of us are not the quickest when it comes to physical coordination, and don't really like being starkly reminded of it. If I ever decide to learn to dance, I'm getting a DVD.
*Also why some guys don't go to gyms, if you're thinking of asking.
I watched a video of marines at boot camp. Man, I could never follow along because I would be concentrating so hard on keeping my eyes from rollings. What chuckleheads those some of those instructors were.
1. Ogged's linguistic reclamation project is absolutely essential. This is a word we need. (much like, as someone noted on an earlier thread, "retarded." Life isn't worth living here in Boston if you can't say "wicked retardde."
2. Fontana is a genius.
The things I most want to label "gay" in the jr-high sense are not particularly feminine; they're lame in a special way that I'd have to work to articulate.
This is exactly right. Of course it's also true that sterotypically manly things -- football, marine push-ups, fixing a car -- are not jr-high-gay. But then, neither is it so simple that stereoypical female activities performed by a man are jrh-gay. A man cooking isn't jrh-gay. A man staying home with the kids, or being scared of mice isn't jrh-gay. Heck, a man sleeping with other men isn't jrh-gay.
But a man in a Jazzercize class? What a total gaywad.
Becks 43: On the rare occasions that I've seen a guy try to take an exercise class, the women haven't shunned him or assumed he's trying to score. They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
Well, okay, but they aren't making the dudes feel hot. The dudes in the weight room, though, are making the dudes feel hot. 'Cause they want to score.
I'm going to agree with Becks that "retarded" and "gay" have very similar meanings. I still doubt that either would be used for aerobics, though, at least in the meaning "inappropriately effeminate."
54 - Yes, but (again) what feels manly != what will get you girls. Do women leave lost baby animals on the side of the road to die? No - they help. Same with guys in the classes. "Do you need me to show you how to set that up?" "Don't worry, I was confused my first class, too. You'll catch on" You might not feel macho, but play your cards right and you'll talk to five girls and walk out with a couple of phone numbers.
60 & 61 - Yes, I agree. I've seen guys pull it off while retaining their masculinity and without it seeming like a scam but it does sound like a total pussy emo wuss move when described.
At this point, I thinking, "If a guy showed up at aerobics class, what percentage of the girls there would think he was only there in a lazy and desperate move to score?"
Girls: Two guys chat you up. One's hobby: aerobics. The other's? boxing. Who gets more points?
Jack's an honest Jill. And the options are set up that way because, well, we are in competition with other guys, and if other guys are using their excercise-hours in a more impressive pursuit than we are, then we're not optimizing our time.
Girls: Two guys chat you up. One's hobby: aerobics. The other's? boxing. Who gets more points?
To be serious, the former. I went on one (1) date with a semi-pro No-Holds Barred fighter. He was charming, polite, hot, articulate, and sure, I felt very safe from hypothetical attackers in his company. But the fucking other people up in a ring to prove manliness thing was just kinda an unsuprable bar for me, you know?
No, not quite right. But what ever it is, the quality under discussion is one that simply must be attacked, because it is that which we reject in ourselves and fear having others ascribe to us.
Jack, I was thinking more of gym-boxing, with pads and such - not too serious. But what about other things that are equivalently acceptable group excercises for men, such as a martial art or soccer?
I think that what we're looking at may fall into emo and annoyingly new-agey sensitive. Do you know the guy in the second half of Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe who cried when Sylvia Plath died [that can't be right--should look it up] and who Lily Tomlin eventually dismisses with "You're not Zen--you're just passive-aggressive!" Not emo, but still whatever we're trying to talk about.
Citing Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe in this context may also be whatever we're trying to talk about.
But, you know, why? It's a pleasantly fiddly little hobby -- I crochet fine thread into snowflakes as Christmas ornaments, and I have a big Irish lace doily in my bag to amuse myself with while I commute (although I haven't made much progress since discovering sudoku.) It's all right for me, I'm a woman, but what makes disassociating yourself from crochet so vitally important?
(And ogged? When I lift weights, I'm molding myself into a superwoman. Admittedly, it's a ways off -- I'm nowhere near being able to bench my weight -- but the thought process isn't necessarily all that different.)
93 - I'm with you on the crocheting. I have three projects underway.
98 - I should so know this quote. I was in that play in high school. If only I were in D.C. -- the script is sitting on my bookshelf. Although I prefer "We got new advice as to what motivated man to walk upright: to free his hands for masturbation."
People are misunderstanding the greater project. By mocking and making unappealing feminine action, often by use of the word "gay," we are attempting to encourage all people, men and women, to act in non-feminine ways. The end goal of the "gay" reclamation/renomination project is to make all sex into sexual interaction between equally masculine types. We reclaim/rename the word "gay" to make the whole world gay. THE QUEEN IS DEAD! LONG LIVE THE KINGS(?)!
98 - Oh, wait, it was Sylvia Plath in the quote and not someone else. You're right -- that does seem odd. I didn't know who Sylvia Plath was at the time. That script had a lot of new words and concepts to explain to us freshmen: "G. Gordon Liddy", "geodesic dome", "fellatio", ...
80--Soccer is, at least to me (if not to ogged), hott. I'm of two minds about martial arts.
I'm not going to be very helpful with the linguistic debate because, apparently, I'm the only person here who never ever used "gay" to mean "lame" as a preteen. By the time that slang came into my life, I knew exactly why I shouldn't use it. The nearest equivalent, which AFAIK has so far been confined in use to me and my sister, was "lame-b"--with the "b" pronounced as a sharp plosive. Not helpful, I know.
I'm not sure how to articulate it, exactly. All I know is that Napoleon Dynamite was clearly lame, but definitely not gay. He plays with knumbchucks, for God's sake.
Gay is something more like effeminate lameness. At least that's how I would use it.
True story: I knew two guys in 7th grade who agreed to give each other dead arms (hit the other kid in the shoulder, if that lingo isn't everywhere) everytime one of them caught the other doing something "gay." The goal of this was, I suppose, to beat the gay out of each other. This story wasn't that disturbing in my memory, but definetly is in typing it out. Just slot it under "7th graders are stupid", I guess. Also, I'm not sure who determined what was and wasn't gay, and whether or not there was an appellate body to appeal determinations of gayness to.
Back in the long time ago days I took an aerobics class that my girlfriend was teaching. I skulked in the back and lived through it. The bad part for me was that it was _really_ hard and I was in pretty good shape at the time. But what really killed it was when, after the class, she said, "The hardest part of having you in my class was not laughing when I saw you in the mirror." The takehome: guys in aerobics classes are funny looking.
I had a friend in junior high who was having a hard time--parents getting divorced, he was kinda heavy, etc.--so somehow it came about that agreed to let him punch me in the arm. Not only did he take me up on it, but he took a running start. God, I had a huge bruise.
Have I mentioned that this is a vitally important question, much too important to be discussed on a Friday night (when the blogosphere is relatively dead). You needed to post this question during prime-time, ogged.
I take it that Timbot is talking about "girliness." And he's right that girliness--by which I mean things like batting the eyelashes, using an artificially high voice, making oneself generally non-threatingly sexual, is annoying in everyone.
I think this is an important point. There's a certain unusual but accepted dignity to weightlifting. I don't think there's any accepted dignity to a guy aerobicizing. And I think that has something to do why the women in the class would look upon such a guy with pity and suspicion.
both soccer and swimming are definitely hott. guys who do martial arts are scary in a jean claude van damme way, or laughable, like when tommy and kriston talk really hard about taking krav maga.
I take it that Timbot is talking about "girliness." And he's right that girliness--by which I mean things like batting the eyelashes, using an artificially high voice, making oneself generally non-threatingly sexual, is annoying in everyone.
Okay, I can probably accept that, as long as we're talking about "excessive" girliness. Although if by "making oneself generally non-threateningly sexual", you mean "flirting a lot"... I actually like that. Quite a bit.
126 - See, but "classes" != "Jazzercize/aerobics". Like, my Club Strength class is organized weightlifting but you never see guys in it. In general, gyms have moved away from the stupid dance-y aerobics-y classes that they had in the 80s and 90s because even women think they're gay.
133 - becks is right. my gym is all hardcore(ish) classes. boxing type stuff, kickboxing. definitely a lot of working out through punching and kicking going on. not a lot of people, even women, are into spandex-type aerobics anymore.
the stupid dance-y aerobics-y classes that they had in the 80s and 90s because even women think they're gay.
I was about to take umbrage to this until I realized that real dance teachers have a lot more in common with drill sergeants than they do with trainers of any description. Carry on!
140: they have something which is what i think you're talking about at my gym, called kombat kickboxing. the name puts me off, and i spend most of my time running on the treadmill or in the spinning class (another male wasteland) but it does look kind of awesome from what i've seen.
138 is spot-on. I still think there must be some element of emasculation for an activity to qualify as gay.
And it hasn't been stated explicitly, but I assume we're all aware: only a guy can do something gay. It would never make any sense to call a woman gay, correct?
143: because, like, do you actually even sweat while you're doing it? if you're working out properly, you shouldn't be all happy and bouncy and smiley. and wearing such bright colors.
Female cheerleading is, at this point, infinitely gayer than male cheerleading. If you want to jump around half-clothed for the tittilation of others, be an adult and hit the pole.
I taught a student in my school's version of Freshman Comp who was a male cheerleader. He genuinely appeared to be in it because of the close proximity to the chicks (who at the "university" in question were wildly hot).
In Matt Groening's 5th-grade diary, some of the girls want to pitch in to buy the hated teacher a present at the end of the year. I can imagine the boys saying, "That's totally gay!" So, yes, girls can be gay. I find this result surprising.
157: In your experience? Are you saying you tried 158 and it worked?
And I imagine the boys woudl onyl be saying "that's totally gay" in reference to their own participation in the gift-giving. Just the girls doing it is not gay, in my worldview.
Maybe it would clarify things if I went ahead and stated clearly that I am a sexist pig. Just so I'm not injecting any unnecessary ambiguity into this conversation.
If you want to jump around half-clothed for the tittilation of others, be an adult and hit the pole.
OK, Tim's 155 suddenly unlocked a mental translator somewhere. The phrase my girl-friends and I used and I think still use for this sort of thing is "insufficiently hard-core." Wordy, yes. Annoyingly ironic, probably. But gender-neutral!
163 reminds me that in School of Rock Jack Black sings about how the other bandmembers are not hardcore. Jack Black's character in that movie clearly is a douchebag. But is he gay?
Oh, yes, cheerleading is definitely gay. I'm a Giants fan anyway, but I especially like that they don't have cheerleaders. It's all about the game, man.
But the fucking other people up in a ring to prove manliness thing was just kinda an unsuprable bar for me, you know?
One, "unsuperable"; two, isn't that rather uncharitable? If it was semi-pro, he was making money doing it (or maybe just making semi-money), and who's to say that he was doing it to prove manliness? Maybe you—you went on a date with him, after all—but it's not obvious.
My little brother's 3rd grade teacher was a male cheerleader in high school- a contemporary of my dad. All dad said about that was: never trust a male cheerleader. Seems reasonable, for many reasons.
One--I knew that looked strange but trusted you'd call me out on it.
Two--I elided the whole part of the date where he talked about how his training regimen for the upcoming competition would increase his chest size by ten inches and his weight by forty pounds. Turn-off!! And semi-pro means, really, the possibility of maybe recouping some of your training costs, although in his case, his ranking had helped him to catch some personal security gigs, which, strangely, is how we met. Then in follow-up phone conversations, prodding gently a little further, I learned sufficient details about his youth that I'm fine with saying it was about proving his manliness, at minimum to himself. Not My Cup Of Tea.
But isn't there some overlap between "tool" and "gay"? Maybe not; like I say, "tool" was not a familiar term to me growing up.
BTW, now that Labs is back maybe he can clarify his understanding of gay; judging from his previous comment I think it's the same as mine but I'm not sure.
Obviously I am very late to this conversation, but it's one I've thought about a lot. I couldn't care less what someone's preferred orifice is, but it's very hard for me to respect a man who behaves in an effeminate way.
I remember once seeing a guy reading a Candace Bushnell novel on the Metro and feeling nothing but contempt for him. I'm not sure if that means I'm a terrible person or not, but I'm pretty sure there isn't much I can do about it.
I avoid using 'gay' as a pejorative, but to the extent it describes a set of effeminate behaviors that are voluntarily adopted by homosexuals, I don't feel that bad about it. At some point the desire to not listen to Kylie Minogue outweighs the desire to avoid being called a homophobe.
is it sometimes the best thing to do, sad though this may be?
I think that's right. I'm having trouble thinking of an example, but I imagine participating in something gay for the sake of a friend--but if the intent is noble, I think the action as a whole isn't gay.
As soon as one's plumbing motivations, the dreaded "gay" no longer becomes appropriate, methinks. Anyway, good luck with the redefinitions, and good night.
201 - Going with Mark to the Olivia Newton-John concert = doing something gay for a friend. And gay, too. It was the gayest thing I've ever seen and I used to volunteer by doing safe-sex outreach in leather bars during Mardi Gras.
208 - My gay best friend. Or best gay friend. I can never figure out which way means "my closest friend who is gay", not "my friend who is best at being gay". He may be the best at being gay, but I don't have the proof to back that up.
142/148: Male cheerleading is definitely gay. It might even be teh gay.
And Dubya was a goddamned head cheerleader! (insert "head" joke here) If only Gore had said, "My opponent is teh gay!," he would have won! But of course a Democrat could never say such a thing. Wrestling seems totally gay, too -- what straight guy would want to be grabbing some other guy like that? Yuck.
btw, why does no one ever comment on the weirdness of saying that something "sucks?" It's obviously a reference to fellatio, which most men of course greatly enjoy receiving, and something that most women (and gay men, obviously) do for their lovers. So why is it an insult to say that something (or someone) sucks? I assume that it originates as an anti-gay remark, similar to calling someone a "cocksucker." One could also see it (and "cocksucker") as misogynist -- obviously women and gays are the people who "suck" and are "cocksuckers." Why aren't gays and feminists decrying the use of these words?
It also seems weird that the word "sucks" is so desexualized these days. Most people don't bat an eye at hearing a five-year-old say that something sucks. If one spelled it out, "____ sucks my penis!," then people would surely be offended. Weird, on all counts.
"Tool" implies a willing submission to the unnatural (meaning often unnecessary) rules of society to the detriment of fun, I think. And that's what you're describing.
"No, I can't go out drinking, because I have to get up early tomorrow"
I like emo as a term, because I was the grocery store one time and I saw a couple who had to be around 22, but looked about 40, attired in matching used black tracksuits and bad hair. They were not crying while they shopped, as they had apparently been embalmed.
But that brings to mind nu-metal, which makes me think nu-gay, which in turn would be shortened to nugay. Making it:
FL: Things that I've said that are nugay:
"No, I can't go out drinking, because I have to get up early tomorrow"
I like Tim's definition. I was thinking "acting like the Man, in the hopes that someday you'll be the Man." Same idea, I think. That's toolish. But gay is a less purposive, more personal kind of lameness.
219: I think it depends. If it's an accurate assesment - to do your job at an acceptable level, you need to get some sleep - simply gay. If you need your sleep to impress someone, because you're a go-getter, it's tool-ish.
According to two high school teachers I know, square is coming back into use. Also, I've been under the impression that tool was more negative than: goes to sleep early.
He would meet women at a party and then take them to break into abandoned buildings. It technically is a felony but it isn't the type of thing they throw college kids in jail for. He did have to hide in a closet once while police were shinning their flashlights around.
[In the UK] My little brother, who is 14 seems to use 'gay' in the same vague lameness sense of gay as used in the discussion above. I don't think there's much homophobia latent in his use of the word although being 14 and so at that age when orthodox sexual codes are rigorously enforced I wouldn't be surprised if there were.
We always used 'wanker' which carries connotations of both toolishness and gay but not 'gay' [in the homosexual sense].
Yeah, "wanker" seems less offensive than "gay." Of course, most of us are "wankers," so that's an odd insult, too. In high school, after the first time I'd masturbated to orgasm, I made the mistake of telling a "friend" about this. He proceeded to tell everyone in the frigging school. I was ridiculed and made to believe that I was the only person who did such things . . . .
Until Barack Obama was sworn in in January 2005, the first three of those were the names of Illinois' two senators and its governor, making us the most phallic state in the country. Lance, as it happens, was the name of the asshole who told everyone in the school that I was a jagoff (as it were).
I have heard that not all men are adverse to martial arts classes.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:09 PM
Cassandra Kazenzakis would probably term it "such a thing as a woman does".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:25 PM
Obviously, it referred to characteristics associated with feminine men--and I'd like to hang on to that, because we have to be able to keep making fun of them. We just need to drop the further association of feminine men with homosexuality.
What I love about this blog is that you keep on teeing up things I want to argue about. Sadly, I should be working instead, but let me at least start.
Why do you have to be able to make fun of feminine men? No, seriously, why? (Don't take this personally, every straight guy in the country feels the same way, when I say (as I am about to) that mocking men for being feminine is both misogynist and oppressive to men I don't mean that this reveals anything particular about your flaws, just that society is all screwed up here.)
I run a little on the butch side -- not terribly so, I just can't get the hang of earrings, makeup, heels, matching clothes, etc. No one gives me much, if any, crap about this and what there is is for dressing badly, not dressing masculinely. Women dressing masculinely is actually seen as kind of statusy and cool, in a lot of ways. So we're not worried about gender transgression in any simple way.
What is so (contaminating? risible? wrong?) about dressing or acting in a feminine way, for a man? Why is it so important that it be mocked?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:26 PM
I was at a standup comedy show on Wednesday night, and will now proceed to mis-remember a joke told there.
Comedian: I just joined a new gym. On Tuesday I took a spinning class, on Wednesday I took Pilates, and on Thursday I took shaping. On Friday, I woke up and realized I was gay.
The guy had many better jokes than that, and think I'm messing up the punchline which is meant to set up the audience expectation that he woke up feeling sore, or in much better shape, or something like that.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:28 PM
I only ever see men in boot camp, martial arts, and (occasionally) spinning classes. Especially in this instance, the word "gay" is inappropriate because even the large population of gay men at my gym avoid the classes.
For straight men, the logic of avoiding an activity that is overwhelmingly female because it feels gay seems to be a counterproductive strategy.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:30 PM
Well, yeah. The whole "Man. Manly man. Must separate oneself from all that is feminine" often comes down to separating oneself from women, which seems, offhandedly, screwy. What goes on with this?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:32 PM
It's just wrong, LB. Wrong and immoral.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:35 PM
God knows what goes through women's heads when they're exercising
If I'm recalling correctly, for me at least, it was something rather similar to what you report men as thinking.
Now back to the gendered language dispute!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:36 PM
I maintain that both gendered and non-gendered languages exist. Rebuttal?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:40 PM
I'm with Jack.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:41 PM
I think what "gay" used to mean, back when it was acceptable to use it as an insult, was, essentially, "homosexual." Could be why "twee" is not as satisfying.
Posted by J | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:41 PM
If you want to attract men to exercise classes, then you have to create some way for men to win them.
Posted by Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:43 PM
I always took that form of "gay" to be more like "lame" than "homosexual".
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:44 PM
Well, yeah. The whole "Man. Manly man. Must separate oneself from all that is feminine" often comes down to separating oneself from women, which seems, offhandedly, screwy. What goes on with this?
It's because hanging out with women in such settings rather dramaticaly diminishes the odds of someday fucking them.
Posted by WillieSTyle | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:47 PM
I always took that form of "gay" to be more like "lame" than "homosexual".
Me too. In fact, I don't recall any correlation between use of "gay" in that sense and homophobia (unlike, say, "fag").
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:47 PM
That's just not true. Think of the classic 'men won't dance' complaint -- that's about not looking "gay". But dancing will get a guy laid.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:49 PM
15: then why it's called 'gay' instead of something else?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:53 PM
And, even if it doesn't get a guy laid, I would think a guy would find watching a bunch of girls in a strength training class a more entertaining way to pass the time than watching the sweaty guys in the weight room. Hell, I'm a girl and I spend most of the class staring at the ass of the girl in front of me because there's nowhere else to look.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:54 PM
My guess is that these guys could do some serious jumping jacks. And that they probably went to a couple of gymnastics classes.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:54 PM
why's it
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:54 PM
The straight guys in my dance classes were not unlaid, but then, as a puritan, I wasn't really in the gossip loop. It is one of the reasons I want my honey out of his dance-class-accompanying p-t gig, though.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:54 PM
That's just not true. Think of the classic 'men won't dance' complaint -- that's about not looking "gay". But dancing will get a guy laid.
Dancing acceptably well will get a guy laid. Dancing like a spazz is the surest way to blow an otherwise promising chance at booty.
Guys who say dancing is gay are guys who can't dance. Amongst cultural groups where male dancing ability is common, dancing is not considered gay. Black and Hispanic guys, for instance, generaly have no qualms with getting down.
Posted by WillieSTyle | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 6:58 PM
Learning to dance okay isn't hard, but men don't seek out the competitive advantage inherent in learning how. It's completely a situation where the importance of not looking as though one has feminine skills or tastes outweighs the importance of getting laid.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:03 PM
And, even if it doesn't get a guy laid, I would think a guy would find watching a bunch of girls in a strength training class a more entertaining way to pass the time than watching the sweaty guys in the weight room.
Oh we're watching...
...from a distance.
Posted by WillieStyle | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:03 PM
17: Obviously the origin of the usage is in stereotypes of gay men, but what I mean is that people who would use it in this sense (in my experience) have generally not been personally homophobic, whereas people who use the word "fag" generally have been.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:04 PM
19: Parkour is totally awesome, even if those guys are too flamboyant to be doctrinaire.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:08 PM
How 'bout femme? (I like exercise classes -- though I do not go to the gym these days, the best shape I have ever been in was when I was taking Tae Kwon Do classes, and second-best was when I was taking aerobics classes. I don't consider myself femme truthfully, or particularly gay, so I don't know that the descriptor applies very well to exercise classes. Now off to read the thread.)
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:09 PM
26: I had no idea that was a semi-organized activity.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:12 PM
19: I didn't see enough of the second guy to tell, but the first and third definitely have had gymnastics training. The first has probably done martial arts as well.
Posted by JDC | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:14 PM
Teofilo and Becks are wrong; "gay" was an insult for something a gay person would like. "Twee" isn't even a word in America.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:15 PM
Parkour. You'd think most people who do it have some serious physical & gymnastic training, because jumping across an empty elevator shaft into a small opening, say, doesn't leave much room for missing your mark.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:16 PM
After reading the thread -- I find myself identifying most strongly with what LizardBreath and JackMormon are saying. (I should note that this is for me by no means an unusual experience of a blog comments thread.)
as a puritan
Thought you were a Mormon?
Posted by Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:17 PM
What's your timeframe on that, Joe?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:18 PM
re 33
late 70's- early 80's.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:20 PM
I think the reason Ted alludes to a timeframe is it could be a generational difference. "Gay" may have started out as meaning "something a homosexual would do" but most people my age (20s) learned the slang "gay" to mean a variation of "lame" in grade school before they even knew homosexuality existed.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:20 PM
How 'bout femme?
Probably a more accurate word for what's being made fun of, at least.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:24 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:24 PM
Yeah, Becks's 35 is what I was getting at.
(Ted?)
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:25 PM
It's so simple: the women in the exercise classes, being (more than) a little put off by dudes trying to score, are not good at making said dudes feel like hot stuff. The gay dudes in the weight room, being dudes trying to score, are GREAT at making dudes feel like hot stuff.
Posted by dj moonbat | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:27 PM
So, aerobics classes are gay because they interfere with the gay sex? That's the first time I've ever seen a 'lucus a non lucendo' etymology in the wild.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:28 PM
"gay" relied on a certain homodisperagia to seperate groups ("gay" and not "gay"), which is why it was psychologically satifsying. "Lame", I think, is acctually a more accurate description of what was meant, but because anybody can be lame, and it's an accidental instead of an inherent quality, it is much less satisfying.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:31 PM
Labs's 37 reminds me that I, too, would probably not consider exercise classes "gay" in the sense we've been discussing, which leads me to the further thought that there may be a generational difference even among the commenters here, with Ogged and Joe O thinking of one meaning and Labs, Becks and I thinking of another. I'm not sure, though.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:32 PM
The closest substitute for "gay" in it's junior high sense that I can come up with is "retarded", which has its own set of issues.
39 - On the rare occasions that I've seen a guy try to take an exercise class, the women haven't shunned him or assumed he's trying to score. They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:33 PM
I would like to strongly second LB's comments at 3 and 6, and might add that this was the source of my reaction to the "stylish men are fuckwits" post. Not only do I not think it's imperative that we maintain the right to mock men for being feminine, I think it's pretty important that we don't. I'm just going to lamely echo LB here, because she already said what needed to be said and better, but mocking feminine men is mostly about reconfirming that feminine qualities are weak, undesirable, and contaminating. Feminine men are class traitors, failing to behave in a way that would continue to reaffirm the separation between the priveleged class--straight men--and everyone else. Masculine women used to be seen as uppity, but as LB notes, that's relaxing, and we all should be doing what we can to make sure that men have the same freedom to borrow freely from variously gendered behaviors and costumes, because they're doing us all a service by helping to break down these boundaries.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:34 PM
Wait, I have a totally non-offensive substitute! The reason guys don't join exercise classes is that guys who join exercise classes are pussies.
See? Nobody to be offended there.
Posted by Ttam R. | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:34 PM
lucus a non lucendo
I've always heard it as "canis a non canendo," but note that Labs apparently rejects Ogged's characterization of aerobics as gay so it isn't an etymology. It still doesn't make any sense, though.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:37 PM
But Tia, if any more of those barriers come down, men are going to be exercising with dogs! Dogs!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:38 PM
45 was actually posted before reading 44, which I agree with pretty much.
Posted by Ttam R. | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:38 PM
Tia-
The only thing I'd disagree with in that is the first two clauses of the third sentence. (Logrolling? Sue me.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:39 PM
And yeah, I agree with Tia.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:41 PM
I'd just like to point out that Ted called Ogged an old man in 42.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:42 PM
They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
This is exactly what I would expect, and it is one helluva reason to not go. One would feel so out of place*. It's also a big reason, I suspect, with why guys don't learn to dance. We don't like upsetting The Order Of Things, and many of us are not the quickest when it comes to physical coordination, and don't really like being starkly reminded of it. If I ever decide to learn to dance, I'm getting a DVD.
*Also why some guys don't go to gyms, if you're thinking of asking.
I watched a video of marines at boot camp. Man, I could never follow along because I would be concentrating so hard on keeping my eyes from rollings. What chuckleheads those some of those instructors were.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:42 PM
1. Ogged's linguistic reclamation project is absolutely essential. This is a word we need. (much like, as someone noted on an earlier thread, "retarded." Life isn't worth living here in Boston if you can't say "wicked retardde."
2. Fontana is a genius.
The things I most want to label "gay" in the jr-high sense are not particularly feminine; they're lame in a special way that I'd have to work to articulate.
This is exactly right. Of course it's also true that sterotypically manly things -- football, marine push-ups, fixing a car -- are not jr-high-gay. But then, neither is it so simple that stereoypical female activities performed by a man are jrh-gay. A man cooking isn't jrh-gay. A man staying home with the kids, or being scared of mice isn't jrh-gay. Heck, a man sleeping with other men isn't jrh-gay.
But a man in a Jazzercize class? What a total gaywad.
Posted by baa | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:42 PM
Becks 43: On the rare occasions that I've seen a guy try to take an exercise class, the women haven't shunned him or assumed he's trying to score. They tend to relate to him with pity, curiosity, and confusion, much like if they encountered a lost baby animal in the wild.
Well, okay, but they aren't making the dudes feel hot. The dudes in the weight room, though, are making the dudes feel hot. 'Cause they want to score.
Posted by dj moonbat | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:42 PM
To be fair to Ogged, I imagine that he has in mind not simply feminine men, but annoyingly femining men.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:44 PM
I'm going to agree with Becks that "retarded" and "gay" have very similar meanings. I still doubt that either would be used for aerobics, though, at least in the meaning "inappropriately effeminate."
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:44 PM
pussies.
scaredy cats?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:45 PM
Who the hell is Ted?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:49 PM
54 - Yes, but (again) what feels manly != what will get you girls. Do women leave lost baby animals on the side of the road to die? No - they help. Same with guys in the classes. "Do you need me to show you how to set that up?" "Don't worry, I was confused my first class, too. You'll catch on" You might not feel macho, but play your cards right and you'll talk to five girls and walk out with a couple of phone numbers.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:49 PM
You might not feel macho, but play your cards right and you'll talk to five girls and walk out with a couple of phone numbers.
Yeah, but guys who think like that are so freakin' gay...
Posted by dj moonbat | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:52 PM
59 - That's not how most men want to interact with women, though. They want to be the big, strong protector, not the lost baby animal in need of help.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:53 PM
re 59,
It's my general experience that women give bloody awful advice on how to score with women.
Posted by WillieStyle | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:56 PM
Only sort of related, but worth the read: What Is Queer Food?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:56 PM
60 & 61 - Yes, I agree. I've seen guys pull it off while retaining their masculinity and without it seeming like a scam but it does sound like a total pussy emo wuss move when described.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 7:57 PM
At this point, I thinking, "If a guy showed up at aerobics class, what percentage of the girls there would think he was only there in a lazy and desperate move to score?"
Girls: Two guys chat you up. One's hobby: aerobics. The other's? boxing. Who gets more points?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:01 PM
64 - Thinking back, the guys who pulled it off were usually big, jock, fratboy types.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:01 PM
my grammar is hampered by the sheer amount of testosterone in my brain! arrr!
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:02 PM
Is that a sly insult, Michael?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:05 PM
I'll amend my position to bring it into agreement with baa's 53. Maybe later I'll explain why we're duty bound to make fun of unmanly men.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:05 PM
It is now. What're you gonna do about it?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:05 PM
If the options are really weightlifting and lockerroom sex or Jazzercise, I'm opting for the former.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:06 PM
Ogged, I'd appreciate a my reply to 41 too, if you can work it in.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:07 PM
Now I'm not sure which side of the generational divide Ogged falls on.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:08 PM
Jack's an honest Jill. And the options are set up that way because, well, we are in competition with other guys, and if other guys are using their excercise-hours in a more impressive pursuit than we are, then we're not optimizing our time.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:10 PM
Girls: Two guys chat you up. One's hobby: aerobics. The other's? boxing. Who gets more points?
To be serious, the former. I went on one (1) date with a semi-pro No-Holds Barred fighter. He was charming, polite, hot, articulate, and sure, I felt very safe from hypothetical attackers in his company. But the fucking other people up in a ring to prove manliness thing was just kinda an unsuprable bar for me, you know?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:11 PM
Michael, my 75 was posted before your 65. I'd rather the weightlifting and sex for myself. The boxers out there will be unlaid by me.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:14 PM
64-
Becks - you've done it!!!
Emo!
I think that captures exactly what we're trying to get at: lame in that special way junior high way we call gay.
Guys don't like exercise classes because they are emo.
---
Okay, I take it back because on second thought that doesn't actually get it quite right. But we're getting close.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:15 PM
So twee ain't it. What about fay?
No, not quite right. But what ever it is, the quality under discussion is one that simply must be attacked, because it is that which we reject in ourselves and fear having others ascribe to us.
Smoking cock? Fine.
Crocheting? Beat down in a back alley.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:16 PM
fey
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:18 PM
Jack, I was thinking more of gym-boxing, with pads and such - not too serious. But what about other things that are equivalently acceptable group excercises for men, such as a martial art or soccer?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:18 PM
I'm afraid that calling someone "fey" would be a bit gay.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:19 PM
79: fey as in clairvoyant or fated to die?
Posted by JDC | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:20 PM
Soccer is
gay, Michael.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:21 PM
I think we should just stick to "lame."
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:21 PM
Fine.
But: Def 4.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:22 PM
84 - Now I'm offended.
Posted by Tiny Tim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:22 PM
Not as
gayas swimming.Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:22 PM
Pwn!
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:23 PM
The lame shall enter first.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:24 PM
Pwn inflation.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:24 PM
Think of the classic 'men won't dance' complaint -- that's about not looking "gay". But dancing will get a guy laid.
It's not worth getting laid if you have to act gay to do it.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:25 PM
I think that what we're looking at may fall into emo and annoyingly new-agey sensitive. Do you know the guy in the second half of Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe who cried when Sylvia Plath died [that can't be right--should look it up] and who Lily Tomlin eventually dismisses with "You're not Zen--you're just passive-aggressive!" Not emo, but still whatever we're trying to talk about.
Citing Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe in this context may also be whatever we're trying to talk about.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:26 PM
Crocheting? Beat down in a back alley.
But, you know, why? It's a pleasantly fiddly little hobby -- I crochet fine thread into snowflakes as Christmas ornaments, and I have a big Irish lace doily in my bag to amuse myself with while I commute (although I haven't made much progress since discovering sudoku.) It's all right for me, I'm a woman, but what makes disassociating yourself from crochet so vitally important?
(And ogged? When I lift weights, I'm molding myself into a superwoman. Admittedly, it's a ways off -- I'm nowhere near being able to bench my weight -- but the thought process isn't necessarily all that different.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:27 PM
What's the over/under on how many comments will appear before someone links to that blacktable article again?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:27 PM
OT, but do you think that if they renamed the squat, the clean and jerk, and the snatch, more women would involves themselves in weightlifting?
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:28 PM
91: Well, exactly. Why is all this such a huge deal for straight guys?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:28 PM
emo is kinda close, but "gay," as I heard it, could also shade into a kind of cluelessness--that's the part that brings it close to "lame."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:29 PM
"He's the only man I've ever known who knew where he was when Sylvia Plath died."
I'm not feeling this. Wasn't Plath's most famous work published posthumously anyway?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:29 PM
a kind of cluelessness
Is the essence of what we're talking about Napoleon Dynamite in his hand motion group?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:32 PM
Maybe we can import a name to do the job, kind of like Santorum. "That's so Hastert!"
Posted by Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:33 PM
93 - I'm with you on the crocheting. I have three projects underway.
98 - I should so know this quote. I was in that play in high school. If only I were in D.C. -- the script is sitting on my bookshelf. Although I prefer "We got new advice as to what motivated man to walk upright: to free his hands for masturbation."
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:33 PM
I don't know this Napoleon Dynamite you keep talking about.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:34 PM
It's a very dangerous pastry.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:36 PM
99-
Matt, Napoleon Dynamite was in no way
gay. He may have been the antithesis ofgay.I think understanding this is important to understanding the concept we're trying to define. I maintain that it's markedly different from "lame."
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:36 PM
I was in that play in high school.
I'm guessing they had different people playing the different parts.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:36 PM
Ok, good, urple, how is it different from "lame?"
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:38 PM
People are misunderstanding the greater project. By mocking and making unappealing feminine action, often by use of the word "gay," we are attempting to encourage all people, men and women, to act in non-feminine ways. The end goal of the "gay" reclamation/renomination project is to make all sex into sexual interaction between equally masculine types. We reclaim/rename the word "gay" to make the whole world gay. THE QUEEN IS DEAD! LONG LIVE THE KINGS(?)!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:39 PM
98 - Oh, wait, it was Sylvia Plath in the quote and not someone else. You're right -- that does seem odd. I didn't know who Sylvia Plath was at the time. That script had a lot of new words and concepts to explain to us freshmen: "G. Gordon Liddy", "geodesic dome", "fellatio", ...
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:39 PM
80--Soccer is, at least to me (if not to ogged), hott. I'm of two minds about martial arts.
I'm not going to be very helpful with the linguistic debate because, apparently, I'm the only person here who never ever used "gay" to mean "lame" as a preteen. By the time that slang came into my life, I knew exactly why I shouldn't use it. The nearest equivalent, which AFAIK has so far been confined in use to me and my sister, was "lame-b"--with the "b" pronounced as a sharp plosive. Not helpful, I know.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:40 PM
96:
91: Well, exactly. Why is all this such a huge deal for straight guys?
You see, being too heterosexual is just a form of gayness. You can't want it too much.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:43 PM
106-
I'm not sure how to articulate it, exactly. All I know is that Napoleon Dynamite was clearly lame, but definitely not
gay. He plays with knumbchucks, for God's sake.Gayis something more like effeminate lameness. At least that's how I would use it.Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:43 PM
apparently, I'm the only person here who never ever used "gay" to mean "lame" as a preteen
That was actually my experience too. And I'm pretty sure I learned the word gay as an ordinary word before I heard people using it as slang.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:44 PM
107: That world has been imagined.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:46 PM
112- I first learned "gay" as meaning simply "happy." I learned it both to be an insult and an orientation later.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:48 PM
Can we all admit that (per prior Unfogged discussions) too feminine women are annoying?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:49 PM
True story: I knew two guys in 7th grade who agreed to give each other dead arms (hit the other kid in the shoulder, if that lingo isn't everywhere) everytime one of them caught the other doing something "gay." The goal of this was, I suppose, to beat the gay out of each other. This story wasn't that disturbing in my memory, but definetly is in typing it out. Just slot it under "7th graders are stupid", I guess. Also, I'm not sure who determined what was and wasn't gay, and whether or not there was an appellate body to appeal determinations of gayness to.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:50 PM
115. nah.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:51 PM
Can we all admit that (per prior Unfogged discussions) too feminine women are annoying?
Umm, no. I don't recall these earlier discussions, but women can't be too feminine. Femininity is very attractive.
Of course, what is and is not "feminine" is not very clearly defined, so we may mean different things.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:51 PM
Back in the long time ago days I took an aerobics class that my girlfriend was teaching. I skulked in the back and lived through it. The bad part for me was that it was _really_ hard and I was in pretty good shape at the time. But what really killed it was when, after the class, she said, "The hardest part of having you in my class was not laughing when I saw you in the mirror." The takehome: guys in aerobics classes are funny looking.
Posted by hank | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:52 PM
I had a friend in junior high who was having a hard time--parents getting divorced, he was kinda heavy, etc.--so somehow it came about that agreed to let him punch me in the arm. Not only did he take me up on it, but he took a running start. God, I had a huge bruise.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:53 PM
Does Squeaky Fromme run squeakyfromme.org herself?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:54 PM
Have I mentioned that this is a vitally important question, much too important to be discussed on a Friday night (when the blogosphere is relatively dead). You needed to post this question during prime-time, ogged.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:54 PM
I take it that Timbot is talking about "girliness." And he's right that girliness--by which I mean things like batting the eyelashes, using an artificially high voice, making oneself generally non-threatingly sexual, is annoying in everyone.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:55 PM
Plent of the regulars have checked in, urple. The Unfoggetariat never sleeps (or goes out, apparently).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:56 PM
The blogosphere is dead, Urple claims in the 122nd comment.
(And, to Weiner's 105, yes.)
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:58 PM
I think this is an important point. There's a certain unusual but accepted dignity to weightlifting. I don't think there's any accepted dignity to a guy aerobicizing. And I think that has something to do why the women in the class would look upon such a guy with pity and suspicion.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:58 PM
both soccer and swimming are definitely hott. guys who do martial arts are scary in a jean claude van damme way, or laughable, like when tommy and kriston talk really hard about taking krav maga.
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:59 PM
...
The takehome: guys in aerobics classes are funny looking.
was meant to be quoted in 126.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:59 PM
I'm the only person here who never ever used "gay" to mean "lame" as a preteen.
and 112.
Me too. I was pretty out of touch with my peer group, so I may simply have missed it, but I never heard 'gay' in this sense until after college.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 8:59 PM
Look, a guy in an aerobics class is the ur-
gay. If we can't agree on that, we're not going to get anywhere.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:00 PM
I take it that Timbot is talking about "girliness." And he's right that girliness--by which I mean things like batting the eyelashes, using an artificially high voice, making oneself generally non-threatingly sexual, is annoying in everyone.
Okay, I can probably accept that, as long as we're talking about "excessive" girliness. Although if by "making oneself generally non-threateningly sexual", you mean "flirting a lot"... I actually like that. Quite a bit.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:00 PM
both soccer and swimming are definitely hott.
Gawd. America really is dying, isn't she?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:01 PM
126 - See, but "classes" != "Jazzercize/aerobics". Like, my Club Strength class is organized weightlifting but you never see guys in it. In general, gyms have moved away from the stupid dance-y aerobics-y classes that they had in the 80s and 90s because even women think they're
gay.Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:03 PM
what, have you never watched olympic soccer or swimming? h.o.t.t.
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:03 PM
132--well, I disagree on the swimming part.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:04 PM
132-
Don't fret, SCMT. The football players still have the cheerleaders.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:04 PM
i agree that a lot of martial arts guys are scary, contemptable, or laughable, but this isn't necessary.
making oneself generally non-threatingly sexual,
what is this?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:04 PM
OK, to 124 and 122, massive commenting on a Friday night is lame but not
gay. So that's another data point.Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:05 PM
133 - becks is right. my gym is all hardcore(ish) classes. boxing type stuff, kickboxing. definitely a lot of working out through punching and kicking going on. not a lot of people, even women, are into spandex-type aerobics anymore.
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:05 PM
Aerobic kickboxing: Anyone heard of it? How does it rank?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:07 PM
the stupid dance-y aerobics-y classes that they had in the 80s and 90s because even women think they're gay.
I was about to take umbrage to this until I realized that real dance teachers have a lot more in common with drill sergeants than they do with trainers of any description. Carry on!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:07 PM
The football players still have the cheerleaders.
Cheerleading is definitely
gay.Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:08 PM
Ok, it seems like we all agree that dance-y spandex-y aerobics is
gay. So, why?Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:08 PM
140: they have something which is what i think you're talking about at my gym, called kombat kickboxing. the name puts me off, and i spend most of my time running on the treadmill or in the spinning class (another male wasteland) but it does look kind of awesome from what i've seen.
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:09 PM
Massive commenting on a Friday is ok. Commenting alone is what crosses over into lameness.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:09 PM
140:
gayThere's no competition or actual fighting.Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:10 PM
138 is spot-on. I still think there must be some element of emasculation for an activity to qualify as
gay.And it hasn't been stated explicitly, but I assume we're all aware: only a guy can do something
gay. It would never make any sense to call a womangay, correct?Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:10 PM
142. Total agreement.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:10 PM
143: because, like, do you actually even sweat while you're doing it? if you're working out properly, you shouldn't be all happy and bouncy and smiley. and wearing such bright colors.
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:10 PM
I think
gayreally means "stupidly feminine" or "too feminine for anyone."Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:10 PM
147: As with the cheerleading, my sense of the word is that women can definitely be
gay.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:13 PM
142/148: Male cheerleading is definitely
gay. It might even be tehgay.But the comment was (obviously) referring to female cheerleading, which is teh hott. See 147.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:13 PM
Is urple the outlier here? (Nothing personal, urp, just trying to narrow down the community's sense of the word.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:15 PM
151: we're obviously talking about totally different things, then. I don't even know what's going on anymore.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:15 PM
Female cheerleading is, at this point, infinitely
gayerthan male cheerleading. If you want to jump around half-clothed for the tittilation of others, be an adult and hit the pole.Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:16 PM
1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144: These numbers are driving me insane!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:17 PM
be an adult and hit the pole.
In my experience, this is exactly what the cheerleaders do after the game.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:18 PM
I taught a student in my school's version of Freshman Comp who was a male cheerleader. He genuinely appeared to be in it because of the close proximity to the chicks (who at the "university" in question were wildly hot).
Totally
gay.Posted by dj moonbat | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:18 PM
158-
That's totally
gay*if* also lame, in other words, if it didn't work out very well.If he actually more or less had his pick of the cheerleaders, it stops being
gayand becomes bold and borderline genius.Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:23 PM
In Matt Groening's 5th-grade diary, some of the girls want to pitch in to buy the hated teacher a present at the end of the year. I can imagine the boys saying, "That's totally gay!" So, yes, girls can be
gay. I find this result surprising.157: In your experience? Are you saying you tried 158 and it worked?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:28 PM
160-
Um... no. I tried 136 and it worked.
And I imagine the boys woudl onyl be saying "that's totally gay" in reference to their own participation in the gift-giving. Just the girls doing it is not
gay, in my worldview.Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:32 PM
Maybe it would clarify things if I went ahead and stated clearly that I am a sexist pig. Just so I'm not injecting any unnecessary ambiguity into this conversation.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:34 PM
If you want to jump around half-clothed for the tittilation of others, be an adult and hit the pole.
OK, Tim's 155 suddenly unlocked a mental translator somewhere. The phrase my girl-friends and I used and I think still use for this sort of thing is "insufficiently hard-core." Wordy, yes. Annoyingly ironic, probably. But gender-neutral!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:37 PM
It seems people have finally gone out. To be continued, I guess.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:38 PM
163 reminds me that in School of Rock Jack Black sings about how the other bandmembers are not hardcore. Jack Black's character in that movie clearly is a douchebag. But is he
gay?Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:44 PM
165-- Not to me.
164-- Are you shutting this place down?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:47 PM
Wait, what? Jack Black rocks in School of Rock.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:47 PM
Oh, yes, cheerleading is definitely
gay. I'm a Giants fan anyway, but I especially like that they don't have cheerleaders. It's all about the game, man.Posted by annie | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:49 PM
But he's also a douchebag! At least at the beginning. I think
gayis probably the rest of his band.Ah, I'm probably just totally full of shit. You can't actually like that song with a straight face, though.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 9:49 PM
I think "tool" goes some way toward replacing gay, at least in its capacity to describe people.
Posted by L. | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:00 PM
"ghey" is not "gay".
Posted by luke | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:00 PM
L. is right, at least in my experience, but isn't "tool" a regional term? I had never heard it until I started college.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:22 PM
But the fucking other people up in a ring to prove manliness thing was just kinda an unsuprable bar for me, you know?
One, "unsuperable"; two, isn't that rather uncharitable? If it was semi-pro, he was making money doing it (or maybe just making semi-money), and who's to say that he was doing it to prove manliness? Maybe you—you went on a date with him, after all—but it's not obvious.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:36 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:37 PM
My little brother's 3rd grade teacher was a male cheerleader in high school- a contemporary of my dad. All dad said about that was: never trust a male cheerleader. Seems reasonable, for many reasons.
Posted by TJ | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:38 PM
Wolfson--
One--I knew that looked strange but trusted you'd call me out on it.
Two--I elided the whole part of the date where he talked about how his training regimen for the upcoming competition would increase his chest size by ten inches and his weight by forty pounds. Turn-off!! And semi-pro means, really, the possibility of maybe recouping some of your training costs, although in his case, his ranking had helped him to catch some personal security gigs, which, strangely, is how we met. Then in follow-up phone conversations, prodding gently a little further, I learned sufficient details about his youth that I'm fine with saying it was about proving his manliness, at minimum to himself. Not My Cup Of Tea.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:51 PM
How about just "that's for girls"?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:55 PM
But isn't there some overlap between "tool" and "gay"? Maybe not; like I say, "tool" was not a familiar term to me growing up.
BTW, now that Labs is back maybe he can clarify his understanding of
gay; judging from his previous comment I think it's the same as mine but I'm not sure.Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 10:57 PM
Obviously I am very late to this conversation, but it's one I've thought about a lot. I couldn't care less what someone's preferred orifice is, but it's very hard for me to respect a man who behaves in an effeminate way.
I remember once seeing a guy reading a Candace Bushnell novel on the Metro and feeling nothing but contempt for him. I'm not sure if that means I'm a terrible person or not, but I'm pretty sure there isn't much I can do about it.
I avoid using 'gay' as a pejorative, but to the extent it describes a set of effeminate behaviors that are voluntarily adopted by homosexuals, I don't feel that bad about it. At some point the desire to not listen to Kylie Minogue outweighs the desire to avoid being called a homophobe.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:03 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:04 PM
I'm not sure I'd ever heard this usage of tool until I began to read Unfogged.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:09 PM
Whoops! It's actually "insuperable".
I blame the wine.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:11 PM
Labs, our linguistic intuitions are in accord. I was conflating the two senses of "gay."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:17 PM
That's good. Now, about your cookware...
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:20 PM
Though this disambiguation
begsraises a question: In what sense is Ben Wolfson said to be "gay"?Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:20 PM
I'm on board too. I guess this means Ogged isn't an old man after all (take that, Ted).
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:21 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:22 PM
Now, about your cookware...
Not to worry, you big faggot: for you, I won't use the non-stick.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:22 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:24 PM
Ben Wolfson is so gay, he's gay in every delineated sense.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:24 PM
At this moment, I am imagining my coworkers reading this, and I am cringing.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:25 PM
Yeah, I still don't know where the fuck I got Ted.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:25 PM
Funny, I was just thinking that my mom is always asking about the site.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:25 PM
I am gay in the same way that Ben Kingsley is a traitor: the best way.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:26 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:26 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:28 PM
And what do you tell your mom?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:28 PM
I tell her I'm not telling.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:29 PM
Wise.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:30 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:32 PM
is it sometimes the best thing to do, sad though this may be?
I think that's right. I'm having trouble thinking of an example, but I imagine participating in something
gayfor the sake of a friend--but if the intent is noble, I think the action as a whole isn'tgay.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:34 PM
You know, there's a less labor-intensive way to write "
gay": "ghey".Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:37 PM
As soon as one's plumbing motivations, the dreaded "gay" no longer becomes appropriate, methinks. Anyway, good luck with the redefinitions, and good night.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:38 PM
Don't be a tool, Ben.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:39 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:40 PM
201 - Going with Mark to the Olivia Newton-John concert = doing something
gayfor a friend. And gay, too. It was the gayest thing I've ever seen and I used to volunteer by doing safe-sex outreach in leather bars during Mardi Gras.Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:42 PM
Uh oh, so much for matching linguistic intutions.
I don't even know what to do with Becks' comment.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:43 PM
Who's Mark?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:43 PM
I could show you. That was my job. I should do a workshop ATM.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:44 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:45 PM
Becks, I should take this moment to mention that I think I love you.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:45 PM
208 - My gay best friend. Or best gay friend. I can never figure out which way means "my closest friend who is gay", not "my friend who is best at being gay". He may be the best at being gay, but I don't have the proof to back that up.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:46 PM
No, 210 is really "tool," isn't it?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:46 PM
How so, Tim?
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:47 PM
Yeah, I agree that 210 is more "tool" than
gay.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:48 PM
211 - Thanks, Labs. Just don't let Weiner hear or he'll start naming our kids.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:49 PM
142/148: Male cheerleading is definitely gay. It might even be teh gay.
And Dubya was a goddamned head cheerleader! (insert "head" joke here) If only Gore had said, "My opponent is teh gay!," he would have won! But of course a Democrat could never say such a thing. Wrestling seems totally gay, too -- what straight guy would want to be grabbing some other guy like that? Yuck.
btw, why does no one ever comment on the weirdness of saying that something "sucks?" It's obviously a reference to fellatio, which most men of course greatly enjoy receiving, and something that most women (and gay men, obviously) do for their lovers. So why is it an insult to say that something (or someone) sucks? I assume that it originates as an anti-gay remark, similar to calling someone a "cocksucker." One could also see it (and "cocksucker") as misogynist -- obviously women and gays are the people who "suck" and are "cocksuckers." Why aren't gays and feminists decrying the use of these words?
It also seems weird that the word "sucks" is so desexualized these days. Most people don't bat an eye at hearing a five-year-old say that something sucks. If one spelled it out, "____ sucks my penis!," then people would surely be offended. Weird, on all counts.
Posted by Frederick | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:51 PM
"Tool" implies a willing submission to the unnatural (meaning often unnecessary) rules of society to the detriment of fun, I think. And that's what you're describing.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:51 PM
Kids? I just want you to take me to the leather bar.
As for 210, I was thinking of cases where my friends demand drunken excess, and I plead, say, work responsibility. Does that change anything?
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:51 PM
FL: Things that I've said that are gay:
"What nice shoes that man is wearing"
Things that I've said that are
gay:"No, I can't go out drinking, because I have to get up early tomorrow"
I like emo as a term, because I was the grocery store one time and I saw a couple who had to be around 22, but looked about 40, attired in matching used black tracksuits and bad hair. They were not crying while they shopped, as they had apparently been embalmed.
But that brings to mind nu-metal, which makes me think nu-
gay, which in turn would be shortened to nugay. Making it:FL: Things that I've said that are nugay:
"No, I can't go out drinking, because I have to get up early tomorrow"
Of course, nugay is completely
gaysounding.ash
['Because somehow gaytool doesn't seem to work.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:52 PM
Frederick, it's time for you to read through the archives, my friend.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:52 PM
I like Tim's definition. I was thinking "acting like the Man, in the hopes that someday you'll be the Man." Same idea, I think. That's toolish. But
gayis a less purposive, more personal kind of lameness.Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:54 PM
My brother was a cheerleader in high school. He did it to score with women. He wasn't particularly succesful.
In college he hit on the scheme of breaking into buildings with women. This apparently was much more successful.
He was pretty fearless.
Posted by Joe O | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:57 PM
219: I think it depends. If it's an accurate assesment - to do your job at an acceptable level, you need to get some sleep - simply
gay. If you need your sleep to impress someone, because you're a go-getter, it's tool-ish.Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:57 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 01- 6-06 11:58 PM
breaking into buildings with women
Wait, isn't this a felony?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:02 AM
Damn. That's imaginative flirting.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:06 AM
According to two high school teachers I know, square is coming back into use. Also, I've been under the impression that tool was more negative than: goes to sleep early.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:10 AM
Or going to sleep early is much worse than you thought.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:12 AM
When I was in school, tapping out was seriously weak. It is not my place to question the code.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:15 AM
So my insomnia is a good thing?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:15 AM
He would meet women at a party and then take them to break into abandoned buildings. It technically is a felony but it isn't the type of thing they throw college kids in jail for. He did have to hide in a closet once while police were shinning their flashlights around.
Posted by Joe o | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:17 AM
Frederick, it's time for you to read through the archives, my friend.
My historical knowledge of Unfogged is pathetically deficient, it's true. I should've known that you all would have considered "sucks" already.
Posted by Frederick | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:17 AM
Ah, he broke into buildings with women, not in order to meet them.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:20 AM
shinning
Shh, you want to get sued?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:21 AM
Shh, you want to get sued?
tsk.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:29 AM
(but seriously, that was actually one of the better references I've seen)
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:30 AM
(but seriously, that was actually one of the better references I've seen)
Agreed.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:34 AM
Yeah, I still don't know where the fuck I got Ted.
No harm done. I was just surprised you used it twice.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:35 AM
[In the UK] My little brother, who is 14 seems to use 'gay' in the same vague lameness sense of
gayas used in the discussion above. I don't think there's much homophobia latent in his use of the word although being 14 and so at that age when orthodox sexual codes are rigorously enforced I wouldn't be surprised if there were.We always used 'wanker' which carries connotations of both toolishness and
gaybut not 'gay' [in the homosexual sense].Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:40 AM
According to two high school teachers I know, square is coming back into use.
When I was starting at WHPK, one of the reviews of a then-new Acid Mothers Temple album said that it was great music to freak the squares.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:40 AM
Actually, I do know where I got Ted. When I read "teofilo", I think "tedleo".
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:47 AM
I see.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 12:51 AM
Yeah, "wanker" seems less offensive than "gay." Of course, most of us are "wankers," so that's an odd insult, too. In high school, after the first time I'd masturbated to orgasm, I made the mistake of telling a "friend" about this. He proceeded to tell everyone in the frigging school. I was ridiculed and made to believe that I was the only person who did such things . . . .
Posted by Frederick | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:05 AM
I certainly never do.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:07 AM
I've never masturbated Frederick to orgasm, either.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:14 AM
What do you call yours, then, apo?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:22 AM
It took me a minute to get that one, then I laughed.
Posted by Frederick | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:41 AM
There can be no apostropher without an apostrophe.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:45 AM
What do you call yours, then, apo?
Peter? Dick? Rod? Lance?
Until Barack Obama was sworn in in January 2005, the first three of those were the names of Illinois' two senators and its governor, making us the most phallic state in the country. Lance, as it happens, was the name of the asshole who told everyone in the school that I was a jagoff (as it were).
Posted by Frederick | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:46 AM
What do you call yours, then, apo?
Spanky Johnson.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:48 AM
the most phallic state in the country
from my experience, this is not true.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 01- 7-06 1:49 AM
I don't think