Every year, Columbia sells off a bunch of decent-quality pianos. It seems to happen around December, though.
Tunings are not going to cost you $300 each, no matter how crappy a piano you get. $100 is an expensive piano-tuning.
As for getting one that sounds good, you should be able to play it before you buy it. It's true that with a used piano there might be some structural problems, like a warped soundboard or non-uniform tautness of the strings. If you've got somebody in the family or a good friend who has a good ear, you might want to bring them along to listen very carefully.
Just for fun, you should check out the piano-storage rooms at Steinway hall. It's almost unnerving to see so many pianos, of so many designs, in a single building. (There are also some completely crackcrazy fantastical portraits of famous composers.)
My honey might have some more advice; I'll talk to him about it.
My impression is that your best bet is to go with a cheap, used synthesizer designed specifically to replace a piano. There are plenty of digital pianos out there that feel and sound just like real pianos. They take up a lot less room in your apartment and you can play them through headphones so that you don't bother your neighbors (or mother) The only thing I am unsure of is whether you can get a synthesizer keyboard that feels to the hand like a regular keyboard for a reasonable amount of money.
The only thing I am unsure of is whether you can get a synthesizer keyboard that feels to the hand like a regular keyboard for a reasonable amount of money.
I've been told by piano-playing friends that this just isn't the same at all. I don't have enough of a personal sense here to argue the point, but at this point I'm set on an actual piano, rather than a synthesizer.
1 sounds good. Used pianos from schools tend to be good quality and inexpensive. (We got our piano from the school Ellen was teaching at, for less than it cost to have it delivered.)
We faced this issue a few years ago. We started by buying "The Piano Book" by Larry Fine, which is a guide to buying & owning a new or used piano. We looked at spinnets and uprights; I see some of the ads and notes in my copy here.
Our search ended serendipitously when our local school had to dispose of a couple of Hamiltons, the school line made by Baldwin in the 50s. We had a tuner my daughter's teacher trusted look one over. Some can't be tuned, have cracked sound boards, etc., while others are so old the parts are unobtainable. The one we chose, made in 1952, was a very good buy for a few hundred dollars.
Some people think a touch-sensitive Yamaha Clavinova (electronic) is a good substitute, others emphatically disagree.
Keyboards have gotten way way better in recent years. My honey has a keyboard (and a spinnet that he really needs to get retuned for everyone's sanity) that he swears up and down has an action comparable to a Steinway. I've played it, and it really is quite good.
The major difference between a piano and a keyboard at this stage of technology is psychological. A piano just makes such a wonderful big NOISE!
3- LB, I can assure you your piano-playing friends are wrong. While most electric keyboards, and virtually all cheap electric keyboards, feel very different to play, many higher end models ($1000+) have weighted keys that feel and play indistinguishably from a real piano. They will cost a good amount, but then again so do pianos, and a nice electric keyboard is much smaller, quieter, and more versatile.
I can't stand keyboards, even nice ones, but other than that, I have no advice to offer. Plus, you can't feel the vibration through the floor and into your bones with a keyboard.
FWIW, my wife (a musician) swears up and down that weighted keyboards just aren't the same.
If you look on Craig's List, you'll find lots of people who need to get rid of pianos because they're moving. Often you'll be able to find seriously good pianos for very little money - sometimes even just the cost of transporting it.
If I were you, I would take along a professional musician, though, to make sure that you're not being ripped off. In addition to lots of amazing deals on CL, there are, of course, also a lot of really lousy deals.
8/11: no, of course they're not the *same*, for the very real difference Cala mentioned in 8. And this vibratory feedback is not unimportant for some people. BUT: if you hook your electric keyboard up to a very good sound system, including powerful speakers that will rattle your floor as you play, this difference will disappear. In other words the difference is caused by the sonic vibrations in the room, not anything about the feeling of the actual keys as you play (though of course the sonic vibrations are in the keys). So get sojme giant speakers and you'll have your piano experience fully replicated. And of course the advantage of the electric is still that you can UNPLUG the speakers if you want it to be quiet sometime.
PS: not all weighted keys are of equal quality. Not even close. You need to get good ones for the quality to be comparable to the "real thing", obviously.
There are other benefits to keyboards: headphones, recording, ability to transfer data to a computer, privacy.
I hadn't played seriously for years when I recently, um, got a little altered, put on the headphones, and jammed up a storm. I would have been just prohibitively mortified if anyone else had been able to hear me...
And yeah, that keyboard cost something upwards of $2000, if I recall correctly.
Granted that even a very good electronic keyboard might not precisely mimic the action of a piano, if the purpose here is for a young one to get lessons (and, though we speak not of this in the young one's presence, determine whether she is *serious* about playing), the versatile, portable, earphone-able electronic keyboard probably is the way to go. You can always buy a "real" piano later if need be, and from my experience in the music bidness, I think that when that time comes you'll have no trouble finding someone to take the keyboard off your hands.
God, this discussion makes me want to drive to my parents' house and pound away on their piano for a while and then take it back with me. I used to love playing.
Weighted (not semi-weighted) keys are the way to go. For example Yamaha P-90 - $1000 USDish. Simulates a bunch of pianos and has good pedel action; has some digital recording capability built in; has midi and USB outs; and can plug right into your stereo (I think), or you can go for headphones.
You do miss out on many acoustic characteristics found with real pianos, but frankly, a beginner wont notice the difference. And even a pro can make good use of a portable piano like this (note: drunken audiences don't notice the difference either).
(1) Don't get electric! It's simply a different instrument, and not conducive to learning good fundamentals.
(2) I would venture that used is absolutely the way to go. It can be a great deal, but you have to have it checked out by a professional technician before buying. Uprights also tend to age a little less gracefully than grands (especially cheap uprights vs. expensive grands), so having a technician examine it and make sure it's essentially sound is important if you don't want to get screwed.
(3) For durability and fundamental soundness, and reliable if not amazingly good sound, I would go with a relatively recent used upright of either the Yamaha, Kawai, or Boston brands. Better still, Steinway makes some fairly ok uprights too, but you'll pay a premium (it's a better brand in terms of sound quality and durability). I'm particularly impressed with the ability of the Japanese brands to hold a tuning (more or less) for longer than 6 months (normally the rule of thumb for pianos in the home).
(4) Of course, it's great to be able to buy a new piano. I'm just not convinced that you really get what you're paying for. Unlike some other musical instruments, pianos generally do not improve with age (although new grands get broken in after a while and sound better than when they're brand-new). But, a well-maintained used piano is surely a better buy than a new one, and would certainly be vastly superior to a new piano you could get for the same money.
(5) Also, when you get a piano, invest a small bit of money in a climate control device (which regulates humidity and temperature), and leave it plugged in at all times. In the New York City climate, you will spend a fortune on additional tuning and maintenance unless you protect it in this way, not to mention drastically shorten the life of the instrument.
(6) Let me second the recommendation of Larry Fine's The Piano Book.
Speaking of, if you want mine, you can have it free if you pay shipping. It's desperately out of tune though. OTOH, it is a spinet piano (i.e., v. small).
I don't know what Unfogged's relationship with Burke & Wells is, other than that this site's design was gratefully adapted from them, but Wells was, at last report (December 27, 2003), a piano salesman, and might be able to give you some good tips, assuming he's still alive and reachable.
We tried the 'lectric route for 11 yo daughter. Didn't work at all; it just couldn't replicate the keyboard response and dynamic qualities.
We were fortunate to get our hands on a little 1965 Wurlitzer spinet (36" high and 58" wide) from a friend for $400. It has its drawbacks - "indirect blow action," a kind of fly-by-wire setup between the keys and the strings to save space, makes it less responsive. But it sounds great, fits in a little cubby in the apartment and has only required one tuning in nine months (we had it checked out by a pro before bought it and tuned when we moved it in).
It's helped the youngun' immensely; she became the top student within 2 months. She plays on a baby grand during lessons/performances, and has no trouble adjusting.
Hrm. So what I'm hearing is used, but get someone to check it out for me. What is a professional technician? That is, if I look in the Yellow Pages under 'Piano Tuners', will I get someone who I can hire to tell me if a particular used piano is a decent deal?
I'm looking at a Yamaha U3 on Craigslist for $2900; from what I've been hearing and reading elsewhere, that's a pretty good deal if it's in good shape. Any thoughts?
We have just replaced a piano with a keyboard, and I have to say that if we had spent a bit more on the keyboard, there would have been no downside at all. My wife is thoroughly anti-keyboard, which is why we had the piano for four years.
However, becasue it lived in a warm kitchen -- the only room in the house into which it could be taken, because of narrow corridors -- it went constantly out of tune. And a keyboard takes up much less room, sounds as good as the speakers you plug into it, and (this is important when they're learning) doesn't have to sound at all if headphones are used. The feeling of the keys on a good one is OK. It's not a Steinway, but it's as good as all but the best uprights. I would really, seriously get one and not a piano. Not perhaps a clavinova, though. Our piano teacher had strong views.
The yellow pages might suffice, but find someone who does not only piano tuning but piano maintenance, rebuilding, serious repairs, etc. If they aren't the person, they'll tell you who is. Someone who is ONLY a piano tuner is probably not qualified to assess the condition of a piano and tell you whether it's worth what's being asked for it.
23: Yeah, the U3 is more or less like what I had in mind. The U1 is somewhat better (a bit bigger, which nearly always translates to better in piano terms) and sounds nicer. I would probably strongly consider a U3 for what that person is asking.
Could you bring along a piano-playing friend when you check out the piano to give their opinion on it?
Unfortunately, I'm going out of town through the weekend, so I'll call and see if it's still available when I get back. I should be able to scare up a piano player to help me look at it with offers of a nice dinner.
There's an annual supplement, with market prices (it sounds like the Blue Book for used cars.) I figure with that and your copy of the main book, I'm good.
I second the keyboard suggestion. While my parents bought a beautiful 50-year-old mahogany baby grand that served our family well for the past twenty years, it constantly required tuning and now has something so wrong with it that it is now unplayable. Also, whenever we didn't practice as often as we should have, we got the "whole room devoted to that expensive useless junk!" lecture.
When my bf's kids expressed an interest, he dropped a few grand on a beautiful wood-paneled keyboard that sounds wonderfully real. It doesn't take up much room, it will last for ages and ages, and the best part is, you can wear headphones and practice as loud as you like without killing your neighbors.
The problem with the keyboard thing is that too many people have told me it's not at all the same, and I haven't got any judgment of my own (not really musical at all) to base a decision on. It probably would be fine, but I'd worry about it too much.
also, AWB, i too got the "whole room devoted to that expensive useless junk!" lecture from my parents as a kid, and that has got to be the worst lecture in the world. yargh.
I believe the part about the expense of musical instruments belongs in the annex to the Westminster Catechism. This kind of moral pressure kept me at it for years, and I actually got better, and am now grateful for it. But a clarinet cost $70 in 1962, about 1K today, so your parents may have been more aggrieved than mine.
A friend of mine once stole a piano. He had all kinds of rationalizations for stealing it, all of which were poor, and I think the real reason he and his band did it was for the adventure. They just rented a truck and a dolly and rolled it away in broad daylight. And nobody even asked them what they were doing because, after all, who would steal a piano?
A friend who worked in a factory that made stoves stole one on the Johnny Cash 'One Piece at a Time' system, for a friend's mother who needed one. They never quite got the broiler working, but the stove did.
I always associate keyboards with this guy that used to play at the coffee shop where we hung out in high school. He was so unintentionally hilarious. He had a song that was a 10 minute epic about losing his keys on a rafting trip and did the most overwrought Shatneresque slowed down cover of Corner of the Sky from Pippen. (Everything! Has. It's. Season. Everything! Has. It's. Time. Show. Me. A. Reason. And. .... I'll! Show you a rhyme.)
He had a song that was a 10 minute epic about losing his keys on a rafting trip
Was he related to Brian Kenney Fresno by any chance? Unfortunately "Ma Dog, Ma Truck, Madera" isn't online, but you can listen to ¡Bobby Salazar! if you like.
I don't play keyboard or piano, so this is hearsay, but I have friends who are really good players who use high-quality keyboards with weighted keys and who are very happy with them. However, those keyboards cost as much or more than a used piano.
On the other hand, one friend has lessons from a serious piano teacher -- the sort of crotchety old guy all piano movies feature and, like most high-end teachers, the sort of guy you have to audition for before he'll even think about teaching you -- and his teacher won't teach anyone who practices on anything other than a real piano.
However, I'd imagine it'll be a while before that becomes an issue!
Thankfully, I'm a guitar player and a top flight instrument can be had for a fraction of the amount that painists or, especially, string players need to spend. Although I am still dreaming of the day when I can pay for a concert standard luthier-built guitar.
Thankfully, I'm a guitar player and a top flight instrument can be had for a fraction of the amount that painists or, especially, string players need to spend.
Hey anybody know how much expense would be involved in getting an analog-to-digital converter that I could plug in to the back of my laptop, for to record myself playing violin? Is there any other hardware I would need besides the pickup?
Probably someone else can answer this better than I can, but I think it's just a question of a good quality mic with the right cord, which should be doable for a couple hundred bucks.
54: It depends how fussy you are. There are really four points of contact.
1) the pick-up (microphone)
2) the cable.
3) the jack.
4) the capture processor (sound card).
You loose quality at every stage. The microphone is the biggest deal, and if that's good, you'll probably need an XLR cable, which requires better jacks, which requires a better sound card, which will run you between $600 and $3000.
However, if you aren't all hyped to approach studio quality, almost all sound cards can capture. Look in your manual; your soundcard probably has a mic jack. If you already have a pick-up, you'll probably need an analog adaptor so you can plug into the tiny mic jack on your laptop. - $5
If you don't have a mic input, you can probably get a PCMCIA sound card that does have one. - $100 (maybe less)
Thanks -- that sounds pretty doable. I have a pickup mounted on my bridge, it is not the best quality but will do. And you're right, my sound card has a microphone jack -- I was thinking there had to be a machine in between the microphone and the computer but apparently that's all built in nowadays.
Actually, a semi-decent small diaphragm condenser mic -- ideal for mic'ing acoustic instruments -- isn't that expensive these days. Here in the UK they can be had for under 100 pounds. You'd need some way of getting phantom power to the microphone e.g. a little mixer, again, they can be had cheaply. Behringer ones, for example are less than 40 pounds.
Even a cheap mic like that will sound massively better than a pickup -- I have a decent piezo contact pickup on one of my guitars and I also have a cheap condenser mic, the sort of $5 thing that people buy for Skype use, not a 'musical' mic, and the super-cheap mic still sounds better. It actually sounds surprisingly good given the price of the thing. I recorded this using that $5 condenser for a nephew who is learning to play and wanted to hear something that's not too hard to play -- it's a bit muffled and the reverb is a bit over the top though but still better than most non-extortionate acoustic/piezo pickups.
If you do use a pickup there are various software tools that can make the acoustic sound generated more 'natural' -- EQs, reverb and various 'acoustic' simulators that try to make piezos sound natural.
All the analogue-digital conversion stuff is done by the soundcard and the built in ones in most laptops are probably good enough. If not, high quality firewire or USB2 external soundcards are cheap these days.
Actually, a semi-decent small diaphragm condenser mic -- ideal for mic'ing acoustic instruments -- isn't that expensive these days. Here in the UK they can be had for under 100 pounds. You'd need some way of getting phantom power to the microphone e.g. a little mixer, again, they can be had cheaply. Behringer ones, for example are less than 40 pounds.
Even a cheap mic like that will sound massively better than a pickup -- I have a decent piezo contact pickup on one of my guitars and I also have a cheap condenser mic, the sort of $5 thing that people buy for Skype use, not a 'musical' mic, and the super-cheap mic still sounds better. It actually sounds surprisingly good given the price of the thing. I recorded this using that $5 condenser for a nephew who is learning to play and wanted to hear something that's not too hard to play -- it's a bit muffled and the reverb is a bit over the top though but still better than most non-extortionate acoustic/piezo pickups.
If you do use a pickup there are various software tools that can make the acoustic sound generated more 'natural' -- EQs, reverb and various 'acoustic' simulators that try to make piezos sound natural.
All the analogue-digital conversion stuff is done by the soundcard and the built in ones in most laptops are probably good enough. If not, high quality firewire or USB2 external soundcards are cheap these days.
Thanks Matt -- I asked a similar question on the violin board that I have started hanging around and people said recording directly off my pickup is a bad idea and will sound nasty. They were pointing me to this microphone, whose price seems within reason, and to this software, which is free.
Yup, that same mic is available here (and a non-USB version of it too) and I've heard good things about it.
Personally, I don't really like Audacity, but it does work and will do a reasonable job of recording and applying plugin FX to sound. Also, there's a shareware program called Goldwave which isn't bad.
What I did was find a cut-down version of Cakewalk Plasma on a magazine cover disc which I still use as the interface is simple and suits me and I rarely need to record huge numbers of simultaneous tracks anyway.
I don't know much about keyboards vs. piano's, but I can't resist this as an opportunity to pronounce my parenting philosophy. Even if a big, expensive piano is better, as your music friends say, why start perfect? Especially with a new hobby, why not start small and reasonable, and if she's still jonesing for a real piano after a year or two on the keyboards, then make the big leap.
I think kids hobbies are an avenue for finding passions and learning how to follow through on them. If the passion survives a year or two of actual lessons, then build up to the intense teacher who insists that you practice on the real thing.
That makes sense when I was going through a heavy metal phase at 13 and wanted to be a bass player my dad insisted I learned to play his guitar first and if I stuck it for a year, I'd get a bass and an amp. As it happened, at the end of that year, I wanted an electric guitar instead -- but it certainly helped having that initial motivation to stick at it.
Re: the html thing -- you need to use the html for the < and > symbols i.e. < and >
I have nothing of value to add except that I really love the ancient refurbished upright we've had most of my lifeand you should give Bishop Allen'sCorazon a listen, it's really delightful.
Every year, Columbia sells off a bunch of decent-quality pianos. It seems to happen around December, though.
Tunings are not going to cost you $300 each, no matter how crappy a piano you get. $100 is an expensive piano-tuning.
As for getting one that sounds good, you should be able to play it before you buy it. It's true that with a used piano there might be some structural problems, like a warped soundboard or non-uniform tautness of the strings. If you've got somebody in the family or a good friend who has a good ear, you might want to bring them along to listen very carefully.
Just for fun, you should check out the piano-storage rooms at Steinway hall. It's almost unnerving to see so many pianos, of so many designs, in a single building. (There are also some completely crackcrazy fantastical portraits of famous composers.)
My honey might have some more advice; I'll talk to him about it.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:02 PM
My impression is that your best bet is to go with a cheap, used synthesizer designed specifically to replace a piano. There are plenty of digital pianos out there that feel and sound just like real pianos. They take up a lot less room in your apartment and you can play them through headphones so that you don't bother your neighbors (or mother) The only thing I am unsure of is whether you can get a synthesizer keyboard that feels to the hand like a regular keyboard for a reasonable amount of money.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:03 PM
The only thing I am unsure of is whether you can get a synthesizer keyboard that feels to the hand like a regular keyboard for a reasonable amount of money.
I've been told by piano-playing friends that this just isn't the same at all. I don't have enough of a personal sense here to argue the point, but at this point I'm set on an actual piano, rather than a synthesizer.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:05 PM
1 sounds good. Used pianos from schools tend to be good quality and inexpensive. (We got our piano from the school Ellen was teaching at, for less than it cost to have it delivered.)
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:09 PM
We faced this issue a few years ago. We started by buying "The Piano Book" by Larry Fine, which is a guide to buying & owning a new or used piano. We looked at spinnets and uprights; I see some of the ads and notes in my copy here.
Our search ended serendipitously when our local school had to dispose of a couple of Hamiltons, the school line made by Baldwin in the 50s. We had a tuner my daughter's teacher trusted look one over. Some can't be tuned, have cracked sound boards, etc., while others are so old the parts are unobtainable. The one we chose, made in 1952, was a very good buy for a few hundred dollars.
Some people think a touch-sensitive Yamaha Clavinova (electronic) is a good substitute, others emphatically disagree.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:11 PM
Keyboards have gotten way way better in recent years. My honey has a keyboard (and a spinnet that he really needs to get retuned for everyone's sanity) that he swears up and down has an action comparable to a Steinway. I've played it, and it really is quite good.
The major difference between a piano and a keyboard at this stage of technology is psychological. A piano just makes such a wonderful big NOISE!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:12 PM
3- LB, I can assure you your piano-playing friends are wrong. While most electric keyboards, and virtually all cheap electric keyboards, feel very different to play, many higher end models ($1000+) have weighted keys that feel and play indistinguishably from a real piano. They will cost a good amount, but then again so do pianos, and a nice electric keyboard is much smaller, quieter, and more versatile.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:13 PM
I can't stand keyboards, even nice ones, but other than that, I have no advice to offer. Plus, you can't feel the vibration through the floor and into your bones with a keyboard.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:15 PM
JM stole my thunder...
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:15 PM
Plus, you can't feel the vibration through the floor and into your bones with a keyboard.
A market opportunity for Hitachi.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:23 PM
FWIW, my wife (a musician) swears up and down that weighted keyboards just aren't the same.
If you look on Craig's List, you'll find lots of people who need to get rid of pianos because they're moving. Often you'll be able to find seriously good pianos for very little money - sometimes even just the cost of transporting it.
If I were you, I would take along a professional musician, though, to make sure that you're not being ripped off. In addition to lots of amazing deals on CL, there are, of course, also a lot of really lousy deals.
Posted by Chris | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:25 PM
8/11: no, of course they're not the *same*, for the very real difference Cala mentioned in 8. And this vibratory feedback is not unimportant for some people. BUT: if you hook your electric keyboard up to a very good sound system, including powerful speakers that will rattle your floor as you play, this difference will disappear. In other words the difference is caused by the sonic vibrations in the room, not anything about the feeling of the actual keys as you play (though of course the sonic vibrations are in the keys). So get sojme giant speakers and you'll have your piano experience fully replicated. And of course the advantage of the electric is still that you can UNPLUG the speakers if you want it to be quiet sometime.
PS: not all weighted keys are of equal quality. Not even close. You need to get good ones for the quality to be comparable to the "real thing", obviously.
Posted by Urple | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:36 PM
There are other benefits to keyboards: headphones, recording, ability to transfer data to a computer, privacy.
I hadn't played seriously for years when I recently, um, got a little altered, put on the headphones, and jammed up a storm. I would have been just prohibitively mortified if anyone else had been able to hear me...
And yeah, that keyboard cost something upwards of $2000, if I recall correctly.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:47 PM
Granted that even a very good electronic keyboard might not precisely mimic the action of a piano, if the purpose here is for a young one to get lessons (and, though we speak not of this in the young one's presence, determine whether she is *serious* about playing), the versatile, portable, earphone-able electronic keyboard probably is the way to go. You can always buy a "real" piano later if need be, and from my experience in the music bidness, I think that when that time comes you'll have no trouble finding someone to take the keyboard off your hands.
Posted by Lex | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 12:54 PM
God, this discussion makes me want to drive to my parents' house and pound away on their piano for a while and then take it back with me. I used to love playing.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:00 PM
One downside, however, is that I've never really heard of people gathering around the keyboard to sing.
That was pretty important to me when I was a kid, and it's been drunken fun as an adult, too.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:09 PM
Weighted (not semi-weighted) keys are the way to go. For example Yamaha P-90 - $1000 USDish. Simulates a bunch of pianos and has good pedel action; has some digital recording capability built in; has midi and USB outs; and can plug right into your stereo (I think), or you can go for headphones.
You do miss out on many acoustic characteristics found with real pianos, but frankly, a beginner wont notice the difference. And even a pro can make good use of a portable piano like this (note: drunken audiences don't notice the difference either).
Posted by Central Content Provider | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:14 PM
Doctoral student in piano here ...
(1) Don't get electric! It's simply a different instrument, and not conducive to learning good fundamentals.
(2) I would venture that used is absolutely the way to go. It can be a great deal, but you have to have it checked out by a professional technician before buying. Uprights also tend to age a little less gracefully than grands (especially cheap uprights vs. expensive grands), so having a technician examine it and make sure it's essentially sound is important if you don't want to get screwed.
(3) For durability and fundamental soundness, and reliable if not amazingly good sound, I would go with a relatively recent used upright of either the Yamaha, Kawai, or Boston brands. Better still, Steinway makes some fairly ok uprights too, but you'll pay a premium (it's a better brand in terms of sound quality and durability). I'm particularly impressed with the ability of the Japanese brands to hold a tuning (more or less) for longer than 6 months (normally the rule of thumb for pianos in the home).
(4) Of course, it's great to be able to buy a new piano. I'm just not convinced that you really get what you're paying for. Unlike some other musical instruments, pianos generally do not improve with age (although new grands get broken in after a while and sound better than when they're brand-new). But, a well-maintained used piano is surely a better buy than a new one, and would certainly be vastly superior to a new piano you could get for the same money.
(5) Also, when you get a piano, invest a small bit of money in a climate control device (which regulates humidity and temperature), and leave it plugged in at all times. In the New York City climate, you will spend a fortune on additional tuning and maintenance unless you protect it in this way, not to mention drastically shorten the life of the instrument.
(6) Let me second the recommendation of Larry Fine's The Piano Book.
Posted by Chris Brody | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:16 PM
Used pianos are usually fine, I think.
Speaking of, if you want mine, you can have it free if you pay shipping. It's desperately out of tune though. OTOH, it is a spinet piano (i.e., v. small).
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:16 PM
I don't know what Unfogged's relationship with Burke & Wells is, other than that this site's design was gratefully adapted from them, but Wells was, at last report (December 27, 2003), a piano salesman, and might be able to give you some good tips, assuming he's still alive and reachable.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:22 PM
We tried the 'lectric route for 11 yo daughter. Didn't work at all; it just couldn't replicate the keyboard response and dynamic qualities.
We were fortunate to get our hands on a little 1965 Wurlitzer spinet (36" high and 58" wide) from a friend for $400. It has its drawbacks - "indirect blow action," a kind of fly-by-wire setup between the keys and the strings to save space, makes it less responsive. But it sounds great, fits in a little cubby in the apartment and has only required one tuning in nine months (we had it checked out by a pro before bought it and tuned when we moved it in).
It's helped the youngun' immensely; she became the top student within 2 months. She plays on a baby grand during lessons/performances, and has no trouble adjusting.
Posted by Andy Vance | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:23 PM
Hrm. So what I'm hearing is used, but get someone to check it out for me. What is a professional technician? That is, if I look in the Yellow Pages under 'Piano Tuners', will I get someone who I can hire to tell me if a particular used piano is a decent deal?
(And thank you, everyone, for the advice.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:27 PM
I'm looking at a Yamaha U3 on Craigslist for $2900; from what I've been hearing and reading elsewhere, that's a pretty good deal if it's in good shape. Any thoughts?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 1:59 PM
We have just replaced a piano with a keyboard, and I have to say that if we had spent a bit more on the keyboard, there would have been no downside at all. My wife is thoroughly anti-keyboard, which is why we had the piano for four years.
However, becasue it lived in a warm kitchen -- the only room in the house into which it could be taken, because of narrow corridors -- it went constantly out of tune. And a keyboard takes up much less room, sounds as good as the speakers you plug into it, and (this is important when they're learning) doesn't have to sound at all if headphones are used. The feeling of the keys on a good one is OK. It's not a Steinway, but it's as good as all but the best uprights. I would really, seriously get one and not a piano. Not perhaps a clavinova, though. Our piano teacher had strong views.
Posted by Andrew Brown | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:00 PM
Y'know, we need to bring back a little bit of the days when we would've been all over "indirect blow action."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:01 PM
The yellow pages might suffice, but find someone who does not only piano tuning but piano maintenance, rebuilding, serious repairs, etc. If they aren't the person, they'll tell you who is. Someone who is ONLY a piano tuner is probably not qualified to assess the condition of a piano and tell you whether it's worth what's being asked for it.
Posted by Chris Brody | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:03 PM
23: Yeah, the U3 is more or less like what I had in mind. The U1 is somewhat better (a bit bigger, which nearly always translates to better in piano terms) and sounds nicer. I would probably strongly consider a U3 for what that person is asking.
Could you bring along a piano-playing friend when you check out the piano to give their opinion on it?
Posted by Chris Brody | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:11 PM
Unfortunately, I'm going out of town through the weekend, so I'll call and see if it's still available when I get back. I should be able to scare up a piano player to help me look at it with offers of a nice dinner.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:15 PM
Are rented pianos necessarily bad? Because that's what my mother had before she bought. The agreement may even have included tuning.
Posted by goofyfoot | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:19 PM
You can have my copy of The Piano Book to take back with you.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:20 PM
Cool. This is me canceling my Amazon order.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:26 PM
What edition were you ordering? Mine's the 3rd, printed 1999. It occurs to me a later edition might go into the keyboard/piano issue, but I doubt it.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:33 PM
There's an annual supplement, with market prices (it sounds like the Blue Book for used cars.) I figure with that and your copy of the main book, I'm good.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:39 PM
I second the keyboard suggestion. While my parents bought a beautiful 50-year-old mahogany baby grand that served our family well for the past twenty years, it constantly required tuning and now has something so wrong with it that it is now unplayable. Also, whenever we didn't practice as often as we should have, we got the "whole room devoted to that expensive useless junk!" lecture.
When my bf's kids expressed an interest, he dropped a few grand on a beautiful wood-paneled keyboard that sounds wonderfully real. It doesn't take up much room, it will last for ages and ages, and the best part is, you can wear headphones and practice as loud as you like without killing your neighbors.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:50 PM
Although, I agree with Chris's wife that no weighted keyboard can match the velvety perfection of a real big poppa grand. Yum.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 2:51 PM
jackmormon,
where is the steinway storage place/how do you get in to have a look?
that's something i'd love to do the next time i'm in nyc...
thanks...
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 3:40 PM
The problem with the keyboard thing is that too many people have told me it's not at all the same, and I haven't got any judgment of my own (not really musical at all) to base a decision on. It probably would be fine, but I'd worry about it too much.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 3:43 PM
also, AWB, i too got the "whole room devoted to that expensive useless junk!" lecture from my parents as a kid, and that has got to be the worst lecture in the world. yargh.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 3:44 PM
I believe the part about the expense of musical instruments belongs in the annex to the Westminster Catechism. This kind of moral pressure kept me at it for years, and I actually got better, and am now grateful for it. But a clarinet cost $70 in 1962, about 1K today, so your parents may have been more aggrieved than mine.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 3:55 PM
A friend of mine once stole a piano. He had all kinds of rationalizations for stealing it, all of which were poor, and I think the real reason he and his band did it was for the adventure. They just rented a truck and a dolly and rolled it away in broad daylight. And nobody even asked them what they were doing because, after all, who would steal a piano?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:29 PM
A friend who worked in a factory that made stoves stole one on the Johnny Cash 'One Piece at a Time' system, for a friend's mother who needed one. They never quite got the broiler working, but the stove did.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:33 PM
Hammond B-3. Definitely the Hammond B-3. Alternately, the little one should practice down at the cathedral.
Posted by Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:37 PM
If you get a keyboard, you can send her down in the subway to play for tips.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:46 PM
Definitely get a keyboard with an auto-chord feature. It does wonders for the Wesley Willis oeuvre.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:50 PM
I always associate keyboards with this guy that used to play at the coffee shop where we hung out in high school. He was so unintentionally hilarious. He had a song that was a 10 minute epic about losing his keys on a rafting trip and did the most overwrought Shatneresque slowed down cover of Corner of the Sky from Pippen. (Everything! Has. It's. Season. Everything! Has. It's. Time. Show. Me. A. Reason. And. .... I'll! Show you a rhyme.)
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:52 PM
Crap. Now I've got Corner of the Sky in my head. I hate that song.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:54 PM
Sing, sing a song, make it simple, to last your whole life long.
If you're still stuck with Pippen I can't help you.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:58 PM
He had a song that was a 10 minute epic about losing his keys on a rafting trip
Was he related to Brian Kenney Fresno by any chance? Unfortunately "Ma Dog, Ma Truck, Madera" isn't online, but you can listen to ¡Bobby Salazar! if you like.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 4:58 PM
I will have to check out those links when not at work. The other song for which he was known was entitled She Wears Her Hair Like She Cuts It Herself.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 5:05 PM
Which I almost want to say was a cover but I couldn't find it in any of my Googling.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 5:05 PM
I don't play keyboard or piano, so this is hearsay, but I have friends who are really good players who use high-quality keyboards with weighted keys and who are very happy with them. However, those keyboards cost as much or more than a used piano.
On the other hand, one friend has lessons from a serious piano teacher -- the sort of crotchety old guy all piano movies feature and, like most high-end teachers, the sort of guy you have to audition for before he'll even think about teaching you -- and his teacher won't teach anyone who practices on anything other than a real piano.
However, I'd imagine it'll be a while before that becomes an issue!
Thankfully, I'm a guitar player and a top flight instrument can be had for a fraction of the amount that painists or, especially, string players need to spend. Although I am still dreaming of the day when I can pay for a concert standard luthier-built guitar.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 5:53 PM
25: I thnk indirect blow action is what happens in the wake's of a thousand fishermen.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 5:57 PM
Thankfully, I'm a guitar player and a top flight instrument can be had for a fraction of the amount that painists or, especially, string players need to spend.
Painists can get a top flight instrument for less than two dollars.
Beginner painists, anyway.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 6:46 PM
Hey anybody know how much expense would be involved in getting an analog-to-digital converter that I could plug in to the back of my laptop, for to record myself playing violin? Is there any other hardware I would need besides the pickup?
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 7:31 PM
Probably someone else can answer this better than I can, but I think it's just a question of a good quality mic with the right cord, which should be doable for a couple hundred bucks.
Or, I could be totally wrong.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 7:36 PM
54: It depends how fussy you are. There are really four points of contact.
1) the pick-up (microphone)
2) the cable.
3) the jack.
4) the capture processor (sound card).
You loose quality at every stage. The microphone is the biggest deal, and if that's good, you'll probably need an XLR cable, which requires better jacks, which requires a better sound card, which will run you between $600 and $3000.
However, if you aren't all hyped to approach studio quality, almost all sound cards can capture. Look in your manual; your soundcard probably has a mic jack. If you already have a pick-up, you'll probably need an analog adaptor so you can plug into the tiny mic jack on your laptop. - $5
If you don't have a mic input, you can probably get a PCMCIA sound card that does have one. - $100 (maybe less)
Posted by Central Content Provider | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 8:22 PM
Thanks -- that sounds pretty doable. I have a pickup mounted on my bridge, it is not the best quality but will do. And you're right, my sound card has a microphone jack -- I was thinking there had to be a machine in between the microphone and the computer but apparently that's all built in nowadays.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 8:38 PM
I have a pickup mounted on my bridge
Ford or Chevy?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-24-06 9:53 PM
Actually, a semi-decent small diaphragm condenser mic -- ideal for mic'ing acoustic instruments -- isn't that expensive these days. Here in the UK they can be had for under 100 pounds. You'd need some way of getting phantom power to the microphone e.g. a little mixer, again, they can be had cheaply. Behringer ones, for example are less than 40 pounds.
Even a cheap mic like that will sound massively better than a pickup -- I have a decent piezo contact pickup on one of my guitars and I also have a cheap condenser mic, the sort of $5 thing that people buy for Skype use, not a 'musical' mic, and the super-cheap mic still sounds better. It actually sounds surprisingly good given the price of the thing. I recorded this using that $5 condenser for a nephew who is learning to play and wanted to hear something that's not too hard to play -- it's a bit muffled and the reverb is a bit over the top though but still better than most non-extortionate acoustic/piezo pickups.
If you do use a pickup there are various software tools that can make the acoustic sound generated more 'natural' -- EQs, reverb and various 'acoustic' simulators that try to make piezos sound natural.
All the analogue-digital conversion stuff is done by the soundcard and the built in ones in most laptops are probably good enough. If not, high quality firewire or USB2 external soundcards are cheap these days.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 1:18 AM
Actually, a semi-decent small diaphragm condenser mic -- ideal for mic'ing acoustic instruments -- isn't that expensive these days. Here in the UK they can be had for under 100 pounds. You'd need some way of getting phantom power to the microphone e.g. a little mixer, again, they can be had cheaply. Behringer ones, for example are less than 40 pounds.
Even a cheap mic like that will sound massively better than a pickup -- I have a decent piezo contact pickup on one of my guitars and I also have a cheap condenser mic, the sort of $5 thing that people buy for Skype use, not a 'musical' mic, and the super-cheap mic still sounds better. It actually sounds surprisingly good given the price of the thing. I recorded this using that $5 condenser for a nephew who is learning to play and wanted to hear something that's not too hard to play -- it's a bit muffled and the reverb is a bit over the top though but still better than most non-extortionate acoustic/piezo pickups.
If you do use a pickup there are various software tools that can make the acoustic sound generated more 'natural' -- EQs, reverb and various 'acoustic' simulators that try to make piezos sound natural.
All the analogue-digital conversion stuff is done by the soundcard and the built in ones in most laptops are probably good enough. If not, high quality firewire or USB2 external soundcards are cheap these days.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 1:18 AM
Sorry for the double post -- the first comment returned an error.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 1:19 AM
Thanks Matt -- I asked a similar question on the violin board that I have started hanging around and people said recording directly off my pickup is a bad idea and will sound nasty. They were pointing me to this microphone, whose price seems within reason, and to this software, which is free.
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 6:02 AM
Yup, that same mic is available here (and a non-USB version of it too) and I've heard good things about it.
Personally, I don't really like Audacity, but it does work and will do a reasonable job of recording and applying plugin FX to sound. Also, there's a shareware program called Goldwave which isn't bad.
What I did was find a cut-down version of Cakewalk Plasma on a magazine cover disc which I still use as the interface is simple and suits me and I rarely need to record huge numbers of simultaneous tracks anyway.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 6:20 AM
I don't know much about keyboards vs. piano's, but I can't resist this as an opportunity to pronounce my parenting philosophy. Even if a big, expensive piano is better, as your music friends say, why start perfect? Especially with a new hobby, why not start small and reasonable, and if she's still jonesing for a real piano after a year or two on the keyboards, then make the big leap.
I think kids hobbies are an avenue for finding passions and learning how to follow through on them. If the passion survives a year or two of actual lessons, then build up to the intense teacher who insists that you practice on the real thing.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 6:25 AM
Aww, the comments box stripped my bogus end soapbox html tag. I forget how to tell it to ignore the html markers.
Posted by cw | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 6:27 AM
Re: 64
That makes sense when I was going through a heavy metal phase at 13 and wanted to be a bass player my dad insisted I learned to play his guitar first and if I stuck it for a year, I'd get a bass and an amp. As it happened, at the end of that year, I wanted an electric guitar instead -- but it certainly helped having that initial motivation to stick at it.
Re: the html thing -- you need to use the html for the < and > symbols i.e. < and >
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 04-25-06 6:35 AM
I have nothing of value to add except that I really love the ancient refurbished upright we've had most of my lifeand you should give Bishop Allen's Corazon a listen, it's really delightful.
Posted by Saheli | Link to this comment | 04-26-06 12:34 AM