-- When the two of you are walking along, side by side, gently sidle up to him. You can give him a little bump, or just walk a few steps touching shoulders. This is easy; it doesn't require control of any facial muscles; you probably won't even be looking at each other, but it communicates affection, and reminds him "body!"
I've had failure on this one, way back when before Buck. Well, I eventually got more aggressive, and made a perfectly unambiguous move, but we discussed it after that point, and he had had no idea either that I was making opportunities to touch him or that I was interested. (I was, apparently, successfully interesting him -- it just never made it it to the conscious level where he understood that I was intentionally signaling interest.)
The only problem with the two things that Ogged suggests is that they're things I do with friends so they aren't unambiguously romantic gestures. I just gave a male co-worker I'm good friends with a smack upside the head 5 minutes ago and I'll do the "body-bump" thing as a "Isn't this a great show!" signal to my married concert-going buddy.
Perhaps my inhibitions are the problem -- I would do either of these to male friends but not to someone I recently met. Perhaps I just need to become less inhibited so that I do them earlier in meeting someone so they might be interpreted as a non-just-want-to-be-friends gesture.
If a woman can come out of the shower in a towel and ask for a foot rub, and still not get her point across, no technique is going to be foolproof. But at that point, it's on the guy: the woman isn't failing to signal, the guy is failing to read.
Good suggestions, the brush up thing in particular can be rather effective. However, on the off chance that the guy in question is at all like me in that he is largely incapable of picking up on these signals (or more specifically, second guesses said signals to a truly astounding degree), the prudent course of action would be to make the move yourself. Brush up against the guy, yes, and if he doesn't move away, then this is a good sign of interest, but it doesn't mean that he will properly follow up in the making of the move.
Truly, spring is sprung. Ogged's return, like that of flowers, sparrows, and skirts, signals the time when a young woman's fancy turns to thoughts of lust.
Perhaps my inhibitions are the problem -- I would do either of these to male friends but not to someone I recently met. Perhaps I just need to become less inhibited so that I do them earlier in meeting someone so they might be interpreted as a non-just-want-to-be-friends gesture.
This gets it exactly right. I think sometimes we're reluctant to be touchy, because of how aggressive it seems, but ALSO because it's risky to start sending signals first, before the other person starts sending signals. But you have to push through this fear! Sex will follow.
Also, you could just make the move yourself, Becks. You're in basically the same position as the guy, except that if you've guessed wrong about his receptivity, he's still not going to be upset.
See, I think this is a basically hopeless endeavor. There simply isn't going to be any signal that will unambiguously convey invitation short of grabbing the guy and smooching him. (Or for the less communication-impaired, like, actually saying something.)
If anyone noticed Ideal's story on the other thread, emerging from one's bathroom after a shower, clad only in a towel despite the fact that clothing is availble in the next room, and gratefully accepting a foot-rub isn't unambiguous. At that point, nothing is.
While I knew my current wife in college, we had been mostly out of touch for several years when we both ended up down at the beach for a long weekend with my coblogger Froz, his family, and a couple other college friends. We didn't actually hook up until a week later, and I was surprised when she said she had been trying to send signals the entire time at the beach.
I talked to Froz about this and stated that I must be a bit oblivious. He said, "Dude, she followed you everywhere you went for four days. The only time she went somewhere else to fix you a fucking burrito. How oblivious could you be?"
Ogged's second suggestion will steer you right into the friend zone. A whack upside the head? Hair tousling? What am I, your kid brother? A girl does this, I'm going to think it's OK to fart out loud.
I don't get it. What ever happened to verbal communication? "Do you want to fool around?" etc. etc. I know I'm hopelessly unromantic, and it's not like I've got a great track record, and I know that a lot of men get confused and intimidated by that, but . . . still.
Don't know if I have any good suggestions on the topic. Try and not just bump into him, but do so in a way that it's really natural for him to put his arm around you?
Come on -- it's not as though I think it's a good norm, or I'm defending it, or I think people should abide by it, but there is a 'guy makes the first unambiguous move' norm out there. So, yes, the answer is to just say something, but there's a reason that women often don't - it's not just free-floating cowardice.
Also, arm-touching! As the wise Sean suggested. An oldie, but a goodie. Sly excuses for the arm-touch include "Hey, what are you gonna order?" and the old reliable "Ooh! I almost forgot to tell you..."
I wouldn't respond well to being asked. I don't have any problem with, uh, being moved upon first, but IME LB's norm usually holds. But the contractual nature of "Do you want to kiss now?" would kill the mood for me.
Tried and true since eighth grade: brush hands! It's less subtle than Ogged's move, for when the situation calls for more aggressive action.
32--Yes, this is why it is merely a preliminary test. If you repeatedly brush up against him throughout the evening, and don't make a show of saying "oops, sorry", and the guy doesn't seem eager to move away, that gives you license to move further--brushing the back of your hand against his, putting your hand on his knee while you are sitting, etc. After enough of this has gone on, and he still doesn't move away, then go ahead and grab him.
This goes both ways--it's a reliable indicator of a woman's interest in a man (or so I would assume). I just mean to say that the woman doesn't necessarily have to wait for the guy.
My favorite "body language" story is a young lady with whom I had dinner, after which we went back to my place to watch a movie. Just as we were getting comfortable on the couch, she reached into her purse and took out her knitting. Not only did she clearly have something else to keep her body busy, she was also holding two sharp objects. Admirable clarity.
I have a raging headache that kind of makes me want to die right now. Maybe I'm not getting laid often enough?
When you're sitting on the couch with him, put your hand on his thigh. Leave it there. If nothing happens, move it upwards. Repeat as necessary. If, at the end, still nothing happens, declare "gay" whether he is or not.
So suppose that someone is sending you signals - well, not the upside the head smacking, but things like arm touching, etc. - that seem clear, but that only a couple weeks before she'd been sending what seemed like clear "I'm in a serious relationship with a guy I've been seeing for four years, but we can be friends" signals the advised response would be to ?
Arm/hand touching will be a lot more unwelcome when it's not welcome though, but maybe that's less true for you people. Otoh, it's one thing that would be less bold for a woman than a man.
When you're sitting on the couch with him, put your hand on his thigh.
This is an effective signal, but I was trying to think of things that were both unambiguous and subtle, so that the person doing them doesn't feel icky or pushy about doing them.
Kotsko, it might not have made sense, but I think the manly thing would have been to say, "Baby, you're gonna need more yarn."
48--This is what ogged was getting at in 24. If it's unwelcome, just move a step away and pretend it was an accident. Much more subtle than, say, putting your arm around his/her shoulders.
So suppose that someone is sending you signals - well, not the upside the head smacking, but things like arm touching, etc. - that seem clear, but that only a couple weeks before she'd been sending what seemed like clear "I'm in a serious relationship with a guy I've been seeing for four years, but we can be friends" signals the advised response would be to ?
This is actually a question with an easy, right answer. Ask something direct about the guy: "How are things going with the two of you?" anything, so long as it's open-ended. If she's happy about him, you're misinterpreting, or she's being weird enough that you don't want to get involved. If she says something negative, "Things aren't great," "I don't know what's going on with him" anything like that, you're probably right about the signals and should make the pass.
At my university we are actively encouraging the students to use direct verbal communication on such matters, starting with "can I kiss you." Removing ambiguity around sex is supposed to reduce sexual assualt, or at least make courtship less a matter of trying to guess when you are supposed to leap on someone.
I really disagree with 54. People who are starting to realize that their relationships are on the rocks are probably a) unaware of the signals they're sending out and b) not exactly emotionally stable. Stay away!
Well, the implicit subtext of "should make the pass" was "assuming you want to risk getting involved with someone in the throes of a breakup". I assumed that that was the case -- without that assumption, the answer is an obvious "no".
- Pick something real or imagined off the other person's sweater.
- Brush something real or imagined off the other person's face, gently.
- If there's a silence or lull, hold eye contact and don't look away. (This pretty much guarantees someone is going to kiss someone, if you both do it.)
- Offer something to drink, and then (obviously) sit on the couch together rather than a different chair. At some point, move forward to get your drink and when you set it back down set it closer to the other person. Next time you move to get it, shift slightly so that your thigh is touching theirs, and don't move away when you set the drink back down again.
- If you're pretty sure that the other person *wants* to make a move but is being shy, let a silence fall, hold eye contact, and then say softly, "it's okay to kiss me now" or "I wish you would kiss me now."
- Another walking along trick (this is girly, I'm sorry): reach for his arm when going up steps or over a curb. The less girly version is to lead a bit: step off the curb first, reaching for his arm to pull him along. If you must let go, wait just a little too long before you do so.
How to make the move yourself:
- Let the silence fall, hold eye contact, move in and kiss.
- Silence; eye contact; smile; "is it okay if I kiss you now?" or "I'd like to kiss you now."
- Sitting on couch: turn towards the other person, reach with your outside arm to their knee, move it up and down a little (not to the crotch, more just a knee rub). If they don't jump or move away, a silence will fall. Kiss them. You want this to be the outside arm b/c otherwise your shoulder will be in the way of the kiss.
- Sitting on couch: turn towards other person in animated conversation. Lean inside arm on back of couch by elbow. When you finish making a point, gently relax it on the back of the couch behind them, rather than moving it away. If they move forward, kiss them. If they move away, the answer is "no."
- Saying goodbye in public (restaurant, bar, car, front step). Say goodbyes, I had a good time, etc. etc. Let a silence fall. If they don't move away, hold eye contact, move one hand to their shoulder or the side of their jaw, and kiss them already. If you're nervous, ask first. Seriously. Asking is really sweet.
- Make a joke: if they've paid for dinner, say, and you're having a good time and laughing, as you're leaving say, "thank you for dinner! Let's see, do I owe you a kiss now?" (Alternately, "I think I owe you a kiss now!") If they say yes, then do it. Don't make it a peck: move from the jokey moment to the real kiss and hold it a bit while the mood changes.
I'm very sympathetic to LB's conundrum, but I wouldn't be here, nor would my children, if women couldn't clearly indicate, usually verbally that they are interested. It wasn't always necessary, but looking back, it characterizes my best relationships. Study Barbara Stanwyk movies if you need pointers.
- Sitting on couch: turn towards other person in animated conversation. Lean inside arm on back of couch by elbow. When you finish making a point, gently relax it on the back of the couch behind them, rather than moving it away.
which seems like a teen-comedy awkward teenage boy moment. (Casual stretch, inconspicuously slip an arm onto the back of the couch...)
on a serious note i would add that any move that doesn't make the other person feel constrained or constricted in their freedom of movement is good. that's the real reason the arm around the shoulder is dangerous - not only is it a pretty big move, but it can feel possessive.
the single worst first move i've probably experienced was sitting on a fire escape with someone watching a summer thunderstorm rage just a few feet away from us, and sharing a bottle of good red wine...very romantic... until he had the brilliant idea that he would PICK ME UP BODILY and put me on his lap. right on! my arms are bendy too - just give it a try!
47: This is easy, but LB is wrong: "how are things with your boyfriend" is way too easy to interpret as "you have a boyfriend, chica, stop macking on me." I once had a guy say to me simply, "I'm picking up some chemistry here," and I was able to say, "yes you are." The key, of course, is not to do it in a Smoove B kinda way, but more as a real inquiry--which most of the guys here can probably do quite easily.
Of course, if the woman is slutty and doesn't care about her boyfriend, or is on the rebound, you can just flirt with her and wait for her to make a move. I mean, if you know her, there's obviously the option of waiting a little while and seeing if the flirting continues or if she just happened to be drunk or giddy that one particular day for some reason.
62: Well, obviously the trick is to make it not seem teen boyish. Hence, don't do it "casually": that's why I suggested it as part of gesturing in the middle of a conversation, rather than quietly while watching a movie, like she's not gonna notice or something. I should probably have specified that I usually pull this one while I'm *not* sitting smack dab up against the guy, so that the resting forearm ends up with the hand overlapping (but not yet touching) his shoulder a bit, if that makes sense. The other person is either gonna shift away (no), shift towards you (yes), or hold still (probably nerves).
#49: You ponce. It's a bad move for a guy to make, but, given the world we currently live in, is there any straight man alive who is going to find that pushy? No, of course not. The only problem is going to be that even if he's not interested, he's going to pretend he doesn't notice the signal for a bit while she continues to do it. (You know you've done this, and so have I.) Which makes him (and me and you) a bit of a dick, but that's what Becks gets for dating men.
You're clearly much less nervous either than I or than the kind of guys I've dated. This could reduce me and a date to a level of frozen immobility for hours. Really, it's a wonder I've successfully reproduced.
but the point was to make the woman feel less vulnerable (which is how I should have put it originally).
Well, now you're trying to square the circle. You want to say, "Here is how you indicate that you're interested in someone." That's an inherently vulnerable position; every step you take to make the sender of the message less vulnerable makes the message itself less clear.
77: Then what we really want to know is what is the smallest attraction signal that any reasonable guy will pick up. It must involve touching, and it should be in a circ. when he can make an immediate move if he wants. If you don't like the thigh move (and, given that I have a NCBC on your mom, I can't really say I approve of that for you, Becks) watch some TV and end up with your head on his shoulder or lying in his lap (not really comfortable with the latter, either). All you're really trying to do is indicate that you're physically comfortable with him. And then you're waiting to see if there's anything he'd like to do with that comfort.
Here's what needs to be spelled out to me. Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected? I mean politely, respectfully. Why?
Okay, I'm not endorsing this, we should all just get over it, I disapprove strongly that anyone feels this way, it's based on outmoded concepts of gender roles, and it's just wrong. With those disclaimers:
Of course it's humiliating. First, it's humiliating for anyone, male or female, to be rejected. Second, it's particularly humiliating for women for a couple of reasons. (A) There is a cultural presumption (which I don't endorse, and don't personally think is true, but it's out there) that any man would welcome sex with any halfway attractive woman at any time (barring physical injury or conflicting monogamous committment). In that context, a rejection sends the message "While I am a member of the gender that is constantly, indiscriminately, and uncontrollably horny, you don't meet even my abysmally low standards. As a man, I'll fuck pretty much anything, but not you." Which, you know, pretty rough; and the presumption it's based on? Still pretty strong in our society. (B) This is less strong, but we've still got a bit of a sexual double standard: sex without an emotional attachment is less okay for a woman than for a man. If the guy is turning you down, clearly there's no emotional attachment going on; when you get rejected, you aren't just repulsive, you're a repulsive slut.
Now, again, this is all outmoded nonsense, and I've stated it overly strongly, and emotionally healthier and more feminist women than I are far enough past all this that it may be entirely unfamiliar sounding. But for at least some women, that's part of what makes the whole 'risking rejection' thing awfully hard.
IDP asked Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected?
Of course it's humiliating to get rejected for anyone, but women get a weird double message about coming onto men: 1) men like to be the sexually assertive ones (so any woman who comes on to a man is a floozy) and 2) men are so horny and inhibited that they love women who come on to them (you can't go wrong!)
So to get over #1 and then to be proven wrong about #2 is extra-shitty-feeling. Men get all kinds of other bad advice about coming on to women, but they're usually also adviced to just suck up the humiliation and keep going for it. Women don't usually get this message, though they should.
If you're a guy, there is a similarly long list of negatives that you can ascribe to yourself.
Sure, rejection sucks for everyone, and women should suck it up and make more first moves. But it's not abnormal for a guy to be rejected, it's an expected part of the process. Rough, but it doesn't make you bizarrely undesirable, you just asked the wrong woman. (And still, we should suck it up and make more first move. Absolutely. Not saying we shouldn't. If you want to encourage this behavior, doing what you can to shoot down the 'Guys will fuck anything' meme will help.)
I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of faithful reporting guys do to their friends about this sort of thing. Just as we've all had threesomes, very few of us are outright rejected. Usually we decide to go a different direction for one reason or another.
And, to be clear, if "slut" is the negative designation that women worry about, "rapist" or "sexual harasser" is the one that men worry about.
Perhaps a man who doesn't want to give offense or hurt someone would be well advised to fake cluelessness, since almost any level of it might be plausible.
I have already posted my entire eye-contact seduction method all over this thread. It was developed over several years of going to college with nerdy misogynistic guys who have to be come onto in a way that makes them feel they are doing the coming on (lest they freak out about what kind of woman would want them, in a Groucho way).
I am wary of touching faces, as Bitch suggests in 59. Any degree of tactile sensitivity would make a person cringe from facial touching. I barely touch my own face, for Chrissakes.
On the whole, it's clear that whoever is giving the signals of sexual desire should not be the same person who initiates the action. This is important. If I am communicating physical attraction, sexual availability, and general readiness, it must be the guy who makes the move. If the guy is touching my knee, leaning in, making broad hints, it is therefore my duty to kiss him.
92: I should correct myself on the face-touching. Face-touching is fine if you're already horny. If not, it feels revolting. I had a girlfriend who kept coming onto me in college by touching my face and breasts while we were hanging out. I finally had to explain to her that if I was already hot for her, that would be fine, but outside of that context, it made me feel a little nauseous and invaded. That was the end of the friendship, right there, with her crying, "I make you feel nauseous? It wouldn't had she started somewhere less sensitive and built up.
Other ways to indicate interest: don't use a public forum to indicate interest in a woman not two hours after trying to set something up with a different woman in the same public forum. That might seem counterintuitive, but it's true.
I think I've stated before that I have a blogcrush on dsquared (also safely married), although it was before I saw hiom comment here much. I do have a soft spot for really effective vitriol.
On the whole, it's clear that whoever is giving the signals of sexual desire should not be the same person who initiates the action. This is important. If I am communicating physical attraction, sexual availability, and general readiness, it must be the guy who makes the move. If the guy is touching my knee, leaning in, making broad hints, it is therefore my duty to kiss him.
This I like, and would tolerably describe what has happened in all my successful sexual encounters. It's a straightforward reciprocity system. But it still requires interpretation--that is, it doesn't address cluelessness--and assumes both want. Still wish it were easier to walk away without hurt. The remembered vulnerability expressed here late this afternoon really gets to me.
Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected? I mean politely, respectfully. Why? Yes. Smartass answer: because women are human beings. Less smartass answer: in my experience, men rejecting women (me) usually act as if there's something wrong with me for asking. Not exactly "slut," but more "weirdo." Guys aren't as practiced as women at letting people down easily, at least not when they're young.
More tips:
- Along the lines of O's "tousle his hair" advice: I'm a big fan of the elbow nudge. You're walking along, he says something jokey, and you nudge him teasingly with your elbow. Other variations: poking him a bit in the ribs, the "ooh, you're ticklish?" maneuver, the lighthearted play slap fight, the "put up your dukes" move, whatever. Yes, they're silly; but they're easy to carry off, and like a puppy lowering its head to the ground, they're invitations to play.
- Posing. This is femmey, so O. will disapprove (though guys do their own versions of it). Whatever. Show off. If you have to bend down to pick something up, bend at the waist, not the knees, and stick your ass out a bit. If you're waiting for someone to meet you, lean insouciantly against something, perhaps with most of your weight on one foot and the other hip stuck out. If your hair is in a ponytail, reach your arms a little higher than they need to be while fixing it and arch your back just a bit. Lean over a bit at the waist while putting on lipstick (or chapstick, whatever) in a window and again, arch back/stick ass out. Yes, these things are ridiculous, but think of them as acting or as jokey play. Really, shy or kinda young guys are not thinking you look like a dork: they're too worried that *they* look like dorks. Sticking your ass in their faces might snap them out of their self-conscious fretting for a moment.
- Really easy and obvious: when in a group, wait for the person you like. Linger until they show up, then be visibly happy to see them. This takes a while and you might have to do it a few times, but astute ppl will pick up on it. Corrolary: if someone is waiting around for you, there's a reason. Hop on the clue train.
- Teasing. Give the person a little bit of shit. Everyone here knows how to do this. It generally works best from girls to guys, I suspect, but reasonably confident non-femmey girls can usually deal. Again, this is basically an invitation to play, and can easily lead to elbow nudging, hair tousling, etc.
- The awkward pause is your friend. Yes, sometimes awkward pauses just mean "jesus, you're a freak" or "wow, I wish I were somewhere else," but if you've been getting along well, joking or talking or enjoying yourselves, and a silence falls, that is your opportunity to change the mood. Hold the eye contact, smile, offer a compliment: "I'm really having a good time," "you're fun to talk to," "gosh, you're smart," "I'm glad you suggested this place," whatever. How do they react? If they smile or look abashed, that's good. If they kiss you, there you are. If they blanch or brush it off, it's not so good--they might be realizing "oops, this person is interested and I'm not." Or they might just be shy, in which case you pull back gently, but try not to backpedal or blanch yourself at the perceived rejection: instead, go with something like "I've had a good time, can I walk you home?" or "to your car?" or "thank you, dinner was lovely, but maybe I should be going now." The trick is that the recovery = comment + possibility for escape. If they take the escape route, then you know. If they try to recover ("do you have time for a drink?" "do you need a ride home?") then maybe it's just shyness. In which case, they like you but maybe aren't quite ready yet, and you ask them out for a second date.
Posing *is* good. Not everyone wants to do it, which is cool, but it does work. Don't pretend, Mr. I-don't-like-femmey-women, that you've never checked out a woman's ass, and that no woman has ever known you were doing so. And guys pose too, like I said.
But if you're not a show-off, all the other things work too.
Re. hyperactive: can you pull off cute? High energy, babbly, or frisky are all different kinds of posing, and can be damn attractive.
125: I may be wrong about this, as I sometimes confuse the backstory's of my invisible internet friends, but weren't you a dancer at one point? Doesn't dancing require one to hold a position for a period of time?
Dammit. The ogged-alarm failed to go off. I'm a bit late.
Well, let me disagree with Smasher: if formulated as a tousle rather than a whack on the head, the hair-touching thing is a big signal for me. For one thing, it's what I was always told during the great Middle School-era sharing of romantic knowledge -- even sixth graders know that a girl touching your hair means something. For another, I just sort of like it. Tastes differ, apparently. Consider it a high-risk maneuver.
But really, any physical contact should send the signal. For a particularly low-risk maneuver, I suggest letting the guy turn to go get a drink/waiter/cross the street, then grabbing and gently pulling him back by his shirt or sleeve (tie? probably not). At that point you should say something sweet or funny. If it's well-received, proceed with the more overt signals mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
I imagine this move should be employed by women. It'd probably work on me, anyway. My sense is that it'd be much harder for men to pull off without seeming threatening. But then, we probably all have that sense about each of these moves for our own gender, for various reasons. Meeting people=easy, hitting on them=hard.
I think these are all good suggestions; the thing to remember is that it's impossible to come up with a maneuver that is both unambiguous AND plausibly deniable, so start with those of the latter category and screw up your courage for the former.
The eye contact thing is a great one, although I was once too clueless to pick up on it, which led to a really weird conversation in which my inner monologue was "Damn, why does she keep pausing and looking at me and not saying anything?" and hers was "Why isn't this moron kissing me?"
127: I do okay with channelling the twitchiness into cuteness once I've decided that, yes, in fact I do want to sleep with so-and-so.
129: Poses qua poses still feel contrived. [Musing] Perhaps this has something to do with my balletic untraining into Limon and postmodern forms. [/Musing] More practically, some of what B describes as posing, I wouldn't even think of as a signal: picking something up from the ground without bending my knees, for example. Other stuff, like sticking out my ass while putting on lipstick, would take a serious committment to posturing. Dance training doesn't necessarily convert into body movement as social rhetoric.
138: Posing is a kind of non-verbal asking. And booty is totally part of full human flourishing.
139: That's interesting. Bending one's knees and doing the hyper femmey "knees together, ladies, and dooooown to pick something up" is also a pose, but I'm always self-conscious if I pick something up without bending my knees *at all*, b/c I'm aware that that means "ass in the air." Or maybe it's bending from the waist specifically, keeping one's back straight, that feels posey to me, rather than bending at the back and sort of just scooping whatever it is up.
But then I'm no dancer; I'm kind of slouchy, really, unless I'm thinking about it. When I'm thinking about it and straightening my back and holding my shoulders properly, it feels to me like sticking my ass and tits out and showing off.
Now, of course, I'm very curious about how you pick things up from the floor without either bending your knees or displaying your ass....
Really easy and obvious: when in a group, wait for the person you like. Linger until they show up, then be visibly happy to see them. This takes a while and you might have to do it a few times, but astute ppl will pick up on it. Corrolary: if someone is waiting around for you, there's a reason. Hop on the clue train.
I really shouldn't be giving advice, considering my, um, history, but I'd add to this that separating a bit from the group once you've met up with the person you like - hanging back a little if you're all walking somewhere, that kind of thing - can work as a signal too.
That's actually the first sign I noticed in what became the not so hypothetical scenario in 47. (My thinking in that case was along the lines of Jackmormon's 56 and we ended up becoming just friends. But in retrospect I've pretty much concluded that it would have been better if I'd tried that whole verbal communication idea.)
It was a deliberately obtuse question, but it got good, kind of angry and sorrowful answers. As to the human being thing, I got plenty of rejection for my overtures, some more graceful than others. Someone far up one of these threads, was it Dsquared? suggested that American misogyny was fueled by in part by rejection and the fear of it. If so I can comprehend that, without respect or sympathy. It's wounded vanity.
Had a very early (for me), very interesting sexual encounter with a girl who, I realise looking back, had to do all the work. I just walked up to her on the lawn before class and expressed interest. Excuse me? She got a little flushed, I think more mad than embarrassed, and started an exchange the purpose of which was to determine if anything about her had suggested to me she would be receptive. This, I recognise now, is the "slut" issue. I managed the task of indicating that, although I had no reason at all to think she would be any more likely than anybody else to agree, I was none the less very attracted to her. I had in fact just thought of it as I walked up; I have no idea what possessed me. I hadn't particularly noticed her before. I think she had more of a sense of me, since the class--Esthetics, Dewey and Tolstoy--was one where I participated quite a bit, even though it was a large section. So, with that understanding, more or less explicitly sexual, we agreed to meet at her dorm at the appointed hour.
So there I am. What I'm doing there is clear to both of us, it's obviously ok, and I'm still not making any moves. Eye rolling, head shaking, barely suppressed laughter. (Enormously lucky to have picked, at random, as I had carefully explained, a smart one with a good sense of humor) "All right," she says, "let's go to the liquor store. You do drink, don't you?" "Yes" "What?" "Beer" "Can you drink four or five, do you think?" "Yes, I think so.""You've got money, right?" I had. I was also of age, she wasn't. Bought a six pack, found a dark place on the lawn behind Orton (Ohio State story, early seventies) She had one, I had the rest. Her father was an English chemical engineer, resident in Cleveland, her mother American. They had recently divorced. Turned out her roomate, an apparently shy black girl, was in a very small class with me, Early Twentieth Century American Novel, and therefore had a pretty good sense of me.
I'm a little unsteady on my feet, obviously in no condition to drive. She literally leads me by the hand onto the dorm elevator, then some chicanery involving shoving me off on a men's floor (they alternated) coming back after seeing the coast was clear, hauling me into her room and up into her bunk (top). Lie beside. This is exciting, even if I'm not entirely in command of my faculties. Warm late spring night, lots of noise. Some dozing, probably, don't remember how long. I need to let some of this beer out. Two choices: downstairs one flight, with elevator negotiation, or take my chances on this, all-girls floor. I'll be on my own. I choose the latter; it comes off ok, with some giggles attendant on my coming and going from other people on the floor; I'm clearly still in an altered state. Back up top. After a while, she decides to see what she's got. She's in complete control. "Shh!" "You lie still. I'll move" And she does. Masterful, magnificent, funny. And she's very happy about it. Can still see her the next morning early, sitting on the lower bunk with the roomate, laughing. We all laughed. They kicked me out and I drove home.
how you pick things up from the floor without either bending your knees or displaying your ass
The whole point of serious balletic training is to imbed in one's body the way to do such movements gracefully and unconsciously. Without thinking, I would likely perform such an action "mi-quarts," or on a forty-five degree from my audience. Still. Never mind that it's been at least six years since I've had any pretension to being a dancer and haven't even tried to do the splits for a couple of years now. (When I did do the splits in front of guys, eb, it was 1) when I was about 17 and 2) part of that whole "I'm so much more hardcore than you suckers could even understand" attitude.
This really belongs on the previous thread, but ogged seems to have thoroughly pwned it, so here's a couple highlights from a life of cluelessness:
First off, I want to endorse B's outstanding advice for groups of friends. When I was an exceedingly clueless teen, a (quite shy) girl totally got my attention and became my first real GF through this move - and this in a group of generally flirty teens. Shortly after, I made her a mix tape (yes!) that was about 24 love songs and 2 filler; I wasn't sure if she'd get the message. Because it was, you know, so smooth.
4 months earlier, this (possibly slutty, I thought) neighbor girl I'd been flirting with called me up to inform me that her parents and kid brother were out for the evening, and that she was in her bed, and cold. So I invited her to my house. Where my parents were. The fact that this led to my first real kiss is small, tiny, even invisible solace 18 years later.
Other examples ensued (some of which I'm sure I still don't know about). I'm convinced that the reason I succeeded in marrying my wife is that she was able to pierce all my cluelessness and just make it happen.
...If your hair is in a ponytail, reach your arms a little higher than they need to be while fixing it and arch your back just a bit.
I remember seeing a picture of this maneuver in a book from perhaps the late 1950s, judging by my recollection of the typical young academic type outfits. The book was probably anthro or sociology, and the caption said something about 'female displaying her breasts to catch a male's attention'. I wish I could remember author or title, but my only association is to Gregory Bateson. Whether he was author, in the picture, or spuriously associated, I can't recall.
Dude, we're looking at a special exemption to fill our roster. We're working out Shawn Kemp. I'm just hoping Powell and Howard get some decent minutes tonight.
But did you hear that they were tossing around Laettner's name as a replacement for Van Horn? God, wouldn't that be sweet?
Finding ways to touch the person you're signalling is the way to go. It establishes a mutual comfort with bodily contact, and concentrates the mind on the physical. Taking his arm, leaning head on shoulder, touching cheek, long look in eyes, all good.
You work up to the point where you're in an alone situation and then move in close and STAY THERE -- forcing the other person to either kiss or whatever, or move away. (If the footrub/towel captain had leaned her head real close during the footrub to the head of the guy, or vice versa, they would've skipped dinner.)
Besides touching, there's also asking outright:
"Are your lips on the mood for a kiss?"
And after kissing, if you want to go further: "Are you going to be really mean and send me home to masturbate furiously over you tonight?"
Just thought we shouldn't leave it all up to Bitch to do the training here.
I got plenty of advice, back in the day. I took it in the spirit I would take B's today, were I looking for it: examples of how it's done, which admit of variations, but mostly which show what the correct attitude looks and feels like.
But there was something else interesting. I got in the habit of wearing my heart on my sleeve with the kind of people--all right, older men--who sometimes had something interesting to say. In this way I became privy to all sorts of reminiscences--hey mid-seventies, right period--of first sexual encounters, some from long ago. Had a mentor or two who caught on to this and either sat back to see what I could pull out of people, or responded by telling stories told to them.
Never tried this with a woman, although I had several female tutors, including the professor I was studying Eighteenth C poetry with. I remember I did tell her the girl-on-the lawn story, which she enjoyed very much. She must have been about seventy-five then, she'd be about 106 now. She was the first person to explain to me why the first thing the girl needed to know was why I had asked her.
My adviser had been in the Kriegsmarine during the war. His physical self-image was as bad as Stendhal's, justifiably, my callow self thought, although he had a beautiful young wife. His stories gave me a fortaste of Das Boot.
I feel so honored that my pathetic inability to flirt with guys is what brought Ogged back from the dead.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:51 PM
You knew it would come in handy one day!
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:53 PM
These are very inspired suggestions!
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:53 PM
I'll just have one drink. One drink can't hurt, right?
Posted by SP | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:53 PM
1: You were flirting?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:54 PM
Seriously, anything body-related is major, signals-wise.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:55 PM
-- When the two of you are walking along, side by side, gently sidle up to him. You can give him a little bump, or just walk a few steps touching shoulders. This is easy; it doesn't require control of any facial muscles; you probably won't even be looking at each other, but it communicates affection, and reminds him "body!"
I've had failure on this one, way back when before Buck. Well, I eventually got more aggressive, and made a perfectly unambiguous move, but we discussed it after that point, and he had had no idea either that I was making opportunities to touch him or that I was interested. (I was, apparently, successfully interesting him -- it just never made it it to the conscious level where he understood that I was intentionally signaling interest.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:55 PM
Whack him on the head? Man, that seems so likely to go awry. A tousle I can see, though.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 2:58 PM
The only problem with the two things that Ogged suggests is that they're things I do with friends so they aren't unambiguously romantic gestures. I just gave a male co-worker I'm good friends with a smack upside the head 5 minutes ago and I'll do the "body-bump" thing as a "Isn't this a great show!" signal to my married concert-going buddy.
Perhaps my inhibitions are the problem -- I would do either of these to male friends but not to someone I recently met. Perhaps I just need to become less inhibited so that I do them earlier in meeting someone so they might be interpreted as a non-just-want-to-be-friends gesture.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:00 PM
I've had failure on this one
If a woman can come out of the shower in a towel and ask for a foot rub, and still not get her point across, no technique is going to be foolproof. But at that point, it's on the guy: the woman isn't failing to signal, the guy is failing to read.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:01 PM
I can see a tousle as pretty clear, if structured as more of a stroking kind of thing. A crisp whack to the back of the skull, not so much.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:02 PM
Damn. I can't find the thread about Liz Phair smacking Ogged's skinny, pointy head. Maybe it's one of the redacted ones.
Also.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:02 PM
I just gave a male co-worker I'm good friends with a smack upside the head 5 minutes ago
Has he got back up yet?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:02 PM
Good suggestions, the brush up thing in particular can be rather effective. However, on the off chance that the guy in question is at all like me in that he is largely incapable of picking up on these signals (or more specifically, second guesses said signals to a truly astounding degree), the prudent course of action would be to make the move yourself. Brush up against the guy, yes, and if he doesn't move away, then this is a good sign of interest, but it doesn't mean that he will properly follow up in the making of the move.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:02 PM
Truly, spring is sprung. Ogged's return, like that of flowers, sparrows, and skirts, signals the time when a young woman's fancy turns to thoughts of lust.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:02 PM
Do you hear the laughter of squirrels, Tim? I do.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:04 PM
Perhaps my inhibitions are the problem -- I would do either of these to male friends but not to someone I recently met. Perhaps I just need to become less inhibited so that I do them earlier in meeting someone so they might be interpreted as a non-just-want-to-be-friends gesture.
This gets it exactly right. I think sometimes we're reluctant to be touchy, because of how aggressive it seems, but ALSO because it's risky to start sending signals first, before the other person starts sending signals. But you have to push through this fear! Sex will follow.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:05 PM
Also, you could just make the move yourself, Becks. You're in basically the same position as the guy, except that if you've guessed wrong about his receptivity, he's still not going to be upset.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:06 PM
See, I think this is a basically hopeless endeavor. There simply isn't going to be any signal that will unambiguously convey invitation short of grabbing the guy and smooching him. (Or for the less communication-impaired, like, actually saying something.)
If anyone noticed Ideal's story on the other thread, emerging from one's bathroom after a shower, clad only in a towel despite the fact that clothing is availble in the next room, and gratefully accepting a foot-rub isn't unambiguous. At that point, nothing is.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:06 PM
While I knew my current wife in college, we had been mostly out of touch for several years when we both ended up down at the beach for a long weekend with my coblogger Froz, his family, and a couple other college friends. We didn't actually hook up until a week later, and I was surprised when she said she had been trying to send signals the entire time at the beach.
I talked to Froz about this and stated that I must be a bit oblivious. He said, "Dude, she followed you everywhere you went for four days. The only time she went somewhere else to fix you a fucking burrito. How oblivious could you be?"
Profoundly, apparently.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:08 PM
Ogged's second suggestion will steer you right into the friend zone. A whack upside the head? Hair tousling? What am I, your kid brother? A girl does this, I'm going to think it's OK to fart out loud.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:08 PM
short of grabbing the guy and smooching him.
This is what I'm saying--you should do this. It works very well.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:08 PM
22: Exactly. Show some fucking o's, Becks.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:09 PM
the brush up thing in particular can be rather effective
Another good thing about this is that if doesn't get you anywhere, it's easy for both of you to pretend it never happened.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:09 PM
The shoulder thing is dead on though, mostly because it involves a soft touch, both in the literal and the figurative execution sense.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:09 PM
Show some fucking o's, Becks.
Yeah, egg up already.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:10 PM
isn't going to be any signal that will unambiguously convey invitation
There's always ordering Chinese.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:11 PM
(I'm so happy to see Ogged commenting.)
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:12 PM
I don't get it. What ever happened to verbal communication? "Do you want to fool around?" etc. etc. I know I'm hopelessly unromantic, and it's not like I've got a great track record, and I know that a lot of men get confused and intimidated by that, but . . . still.
Posted by Chris | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:12 PM
Also, w00t! ogged!
Don't know if I have any good suggestions on the topic. Try and not just bump into him, but do so in a way that it's really natural for him to put his arm around you?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:14 PM
Do you want to fool around?
Are you trying to send me a signal, Chris?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:14 PM
I've accidentally bumped into people on dates.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:15 PM
Come on -- it's not as though I think it's a good norm, or I'm defending it, or I think people should abide by it, but there is a 'guy makes the first unambiguous move' norm out there. So, yes, the answer is to just say something, but there's a reason that women often don't - it's not just free-floating cowardice.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:16 PM
Give him a back rub?
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:18 PM
Or hell, a foot massage.
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:19 PM
33. I agree, and I'm very sympathetic. But I think there should be a great social movement to destroy that norm. Let it begin with unfogged.
And, yeah, I know that the norm makes this a potentially bad strategy. But surely *some* guys would respond well to it.
Posted by Chris | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:20 PM
Also, arm-touching! As the wise Sean suggested. An oldie, but a goodie. Sly excuses for the arm-touch include "Hey, what are you gonna order?" and the old reliable "Ooh! I almost forgot to tell you..."
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:21 PM
I wouldn't respond well to being asked. I don't have any problem with, uh, being moved upon first, but IME LB's norm usually holds. But the contractual nature of "Do you want to kiss now?" would kill the mood for me.
Tried and true since eighth grade: brush hands! It's less subtle than Ogged's move, for when the situation calls for more aggressive action.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:22 PM
32--Yes, this is why it is merely a preliminary test. If you repeatedly brush up against him throughout the evening, and don't make a show of saying "oops, sorry", and the guy doesn't seem eager to move away, that gives you license to move further--brushing the back of your hand against his, putting your hand on his knee while you are sitting, etc. After enough of this has gone on, and he still doesn't move away, then go ahead and grab him.
This goes both ways--it's a reliable indicator of a woman's interest in a man (or so I would assume). I just mean to say that the woman doesn't necessarily have to wait for the guy.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:24 PM
Yeah, arm touching. I was gonna say that.
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:24 PM
If the brush doesn't work, step it up; if he isn't making a pass after the bodycheck, it was never meant to be.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:25 PM
My favorite "body language" story is a young lady with whom I had dinner, after which we went back to my place to watch a movie. Just as we were getting comfortable on the couch, she reached into her purse and took out her knitting. Not only did she clearly have something else to keep her body busy, she was also holding two sharp objects. Admirable clarity.
I have a raging headache that kind of makes me want to die right now. Maybe I'm not getting laid often enough?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:25 PM
I don't really see what your point in 33 is, LB.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:26 PM
Apparently 'Smasher and I had similar middle school experiences. The hand-brushing works wonders.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:26 PM
When you're sitting on the couch with him, put your hand on his thigh. Leave it there. If nothing happens, move it upwards. Repeat as necessary. If, at the end, still nothing happens, declare "gay" whether he is or not.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:27 PM
There simply isn't going to be any signal that will unambiguously convey invitation short of grabbing the guy and smooching him.
Yes there is. Use the mustachio'd airhorn. He'll know what you mean.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:27 PM
So suppose that someone is sending you signals - well, not the upside the head smacking, but things like arm touching, etc. - that seem clear, but that only a couple weeks before she'd been sending what seemed like clear "I'm in a serious relationship with a guy I've been seeing for four years, but we can be friends" signals the advised response would be to ?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:27 PM
Arm/hand touching will be a lot more unwelcome when it's not welcome though, but maybe that's less true for you people. Otoh, it's one thing that would be less bold for a woman than a man.
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:28 PM
When you're sitting on the couch with him, put your hand on his thigh.
This is an effective signal, but I was trying to think of things that were both unambiguous and subtle, so that the person doing them doesn't feel icky or pushy about doing them.
Kotsko, it might not have made sense, but I think the manly thing would have been to say, "Baby, you're gonna need more yarn."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:29 PM
The hand-brushing works wonders.
Yeah, in middle school I "hand-brushed" several times a day.
Wait, are we talking about the same thing?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:29 PM
the advised response would be to...
...sleep with her when he's out of town. Repeat as necessary.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:30 PM
48--This is what ogged was getting at in 24. If it's unwelcome, just move a step away and pretend it was an accident. Much more subtle than, say, putting your arm around his/her shoulders.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:31 PM
I left a comment in the Chicago meet-up thread, btw. (I know it's late -- I've been a little less able to keep up with blogology lately.)
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:33 PM
So suppose that someone is sending you signals - well, not the upside the head smacking, but things like arm touching, etc. - that seem clear, but that only a couple weeks before she'd been sending what seemed like clear "I'm in a serious relationship with a guy I've been seeing for four years, but we can be friends" signals the advised response would be to ?
This is actually a question with an easy, right answer. Ask something direct about the guy: "How are things going with the two of you?" anything, so long as it's open-ended. If she's happy about him, you're misinterpreting, or she's being weird enough that you don't want to get involved. If she says something negative, "Things aren't great," "I don't know what's going on with him" anything like that, you're probably right about the signals and should make the pass.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:41 PM
At my university we are actively encouraging the students to use direct verbal communication on such matters, starting with "can I kiss you." Removing ambiguity around sex is supposed to reduce sexual assualt, or at least make courtship less a matter of trying to guess when you are supposed to leap on someone.
So I'm totally down with 29 & 36.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:42 PM
I really disagree with 54. People who are starting to realize that their relationships are on the rocks are probably a) unaware of the signals they're sending out and b) not exactly emotionally stable. Stay away!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:47 PM
Well, the implicit subtext of "should make the pass" was "assuming you want to risk getting involved with someone in the throes of a breakup". I assumed that that was the case -- without that assumption, the answer is an obvious "no".
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:54 PM
ha ha! i am totally going to start whacking the heads of any guys i am interested in from now on! thanks ogged!
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:55 PM
Yay Ogged!
How to signal "make a move on me":
- Pick something real or imagined off the other person's sweater.
- Brush something real or imagined off the other person's face, gently.
- If there's a silence or lull, hold eye contact and don't look away. (This pretty much guarantees someone is going to kiss someone, if you both do it.)
- Offer something to drink, and then (obviously) sit on the couch together rather than a different chair. At some point, move forward to get your drink and when you set it back down set it closer to the other person. Next time you move to get it, shift slightly so that your thigh is touching theirs, and don't move away when you set the drink back down again.
- If you're pretty sure that the other person *wants* to make a move but is being shy, let a silence fall, hold eye contact, and then say softly, "it's okay to kiss me now" or "I wish you would kiss me now."
- Another walking along trick (this is girly, I'm sorry): reach for his arm when going up steps or over a curb. The less girly version is to lead a bit: step off the curb first, reaching for his arm to pull him along. If you must let go, wait just a little too long before you do so.
How to make the move yourself:
- Let the silence fall, hold eye contact, move in and kiss.
- Silence; eye contact; smile; "is it okay if I kiss you now?" or "I'd like to kiss you now."
- Sitting on couch: turn towards the other person, reach with your outside arm to their knee, move it up and down a little (not to the crotch, more just a knee rub). If they don't jump or move away, a silence will fall. Kiss them. You want this to be the outside arm b/c otherwise your shoulder will be in the way of the kiss.
- Sitting on couch: turn towards other person in animated conversation. Lean inside arm on back of couch by elbow. When you finish making a point, gently relax it on the back of the couch behind them, rather than moving it away. If they move forward, kiss them. If they move away, the answer is "no."
- Saying goodbye in public (restaurant, bar, car, front step). Say goodbyes, I had a good time, etc. etc. Let a silence fall. If they don't move away, hold eye contact, move one hand to their shoulder or the side of their jaw, and kiss them already. If you're nervous, ask first. Seriously. Asking is really sweet.
- Make a joke: if they've paid for dinner, say, and you're having a good time and laughing, as you're leaving say, "thank you for dinner! Let's see, do I owe you a kiss now?" (Alternately, "I think I owe you a kiss now!") If they say yes, then do it. Don't make it a peck: move from the jokey moment to the real kiss and hold it a bit while the mood changes.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:58 PM
Ogged's suggestions were very inspired.
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 3:59 PM
I'm very sympathetic to LB's conundrum, but I wouldn't be here, nor would my children, if women couldn't clearly indicate, usually verbally that they are interested. It wasn't always necessary, but looking back, it characterizes my best relationships. Study Barbara Stanwyk movies if you need pointers.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:02 PM
Okay, all of 68 seems reasonable except this:
- Sitting on couch: turn towards other person in animated conversation. Lean inside arm on back of couch by elbow. When you finish making a point, gently relax it on the back of the couch behind them, rather than moving it away.
which seems like a teen-comedy awkward teenage boy moment. (Casual stretch, inconspicuously slip an arm onto the back of the couch...)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:02 PM
on a serious note i would add that any move that doesn't make the other person feel constrained or constricted in their freedom of movement is good. that's the real reason the arm around the shoulder is dangerous - not only is it a pretty big move, but it can feel possessive.
the single worst first move i've probably experienced was sitting on a fire escape with someone watching a summer thunderstorm rage just a few feet away from us, and sharing a bottle of good red wine...very romantic... until he had the brilliant idea that he would PICK ME UP BODILY and put me on his lap. right on! my arms are bendy too - just give it a try!
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:03 PM
42: Ahem.
Posted by Ttam R. | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:03 PM
47: This is easy, but LB is wrong: "how are things with your boyfriend" is way too easy to interpret as "you have a boyfriend, chica, stop macking on me." I once had a guy say to me simply, "I'm picking up some chemistry here," and I was able to say, "yes you are." The key, of course, is not to do it in a Smoove B kinda way, but more as a real inquiry--which most of the guys here can probably do quite easily.
Of course, if the woman is slutty and doesn't care about her boyfriend, or is on the rebound, you can just flirt with her and wait for her to make a move. I mean, if you know her, there's obviously the option of waiting a little while and seeing if the flirting continues or if she just happened to be drunk or giddy that one particular day for some reason.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:04 PM
I hadn't read 59 when I posted; it's nearer to hand than Preston Sturges movies.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:04 PM
62: Well, obviously the trick is to make it not seem teen boyish. Hence, don't do it "casually": that's why I suggested it as part of gesturing in the middle of a conversation, rather than quietly while watching a movie, like she's not gonna notice or something. I should probably have specified that I usually pull this one while I'm *not* sitting smack dab up against the guy, so that the resting forearm ends up with the hand overlapping (but not yet touching) his shoulder a bit, if that makes sense. The other person is either gonna shift away (no), shift towards you (yes), or hold still (probably nerves).
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:07 PM
#49: You ponce. It's a bad move for a guy to make, but, given the world we currently live in, is there any straight man alive who is going to find that pushy? No, of course not. The only problem is going to be that even if he's not interested, he's going to pretend he doesn't notice the signal for a bit while she continues to do it. (You know you've done this, and so have I.) Which makes him (and me and you) a bit of a dick, but that's what Becks gets for dating men.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:12 PM
hold still (probably nerves).
You're clearly much less nervous either than I or than the kind of guys I've dated. This could reduce me and a date to a level of frozen immobility for hours. Really, it's a wonder I've successfully reproduced.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:19 PM
59: What a minx!
Posted by bill | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:23 PM
even if he's not interested, he's going to pretend he doesn't notice the signal for a bit while she continues to do it
Actually, any time there's physical contact, I just say, "I'm sorry, I don't put out." This does make handshakes awkward....
is there any straight man alive who is going to find that pushy?
No, but the point was to make the woman feel less vulnerable (which is how I should have put it originally).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:25 PM
SCMT insults, ogged responds. All is right in the world. Except...where's SB?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:28 PM
Here's what needs to be spelled out to me. Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected? I mean politely, respectfully. Why?
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:29 PM
There's a little bit of SB in us all.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:29 PM
Actually, any time there's physical contact, I just say, "I'm sorry, I don't put out." This does make handshakes awkward....
And explains why you aren't fond of public transportation.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:30 PM
but the point was to make the woman feel less vulnerable (which is how I should have put it originally).
Well, now you're trying to square the circle. You want to say, "Here is how you indicate that you're interested in someone." That's an inherently vulnerable position; every step you take to make the sender of the message less vulnerable makes the message itself less clear.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:33 PM
If it were an easy question, we wouldn't need to send in the hive-mind, Tim.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:35 PM
Of course the one day I'm doing too much work to comment is the day Ogged comes back from the dead.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:36 PM
Isn't it rich?
Are we a two?
You with your hand on my thigh,
Me with no clue.
Send in the hive-mind...
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:37 PM
77: Then what we really want to know is what is the smallest attraction signal that any reasonable guy will pick up. It must involve touching, and it should be in a circ. when he can make an immediate move if he wants. If you don't like the thigh move (and, given that I have a NCBC on your mom, I can't really say I approve of that for you, Becks) watch some TV and end up with your head on his shoulder or lying in his lap (not really comfortable with the latter, either). All you're really trying to do is indicate that you're physically comfortable with him. And then you're waiting to see if there's anything he'd like to do with that comfort.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:43 PM
Here's what needs to be spelled out to me. Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected? I mean politely, respectfully. Why?
Okay, I'm not endorsing this, we should all just get over it, I disapprove strongly that anyone feels this way, it's based on outmoded concepts of gender roles, and it's just wrong. With those disclaimers:
Of course it's humiliating. First, it's humiliating for anyone, male or female, to be rejected. Second, it's particularly humiliating for women for a couple of reasons. (A) There is a cultural presumption (which I don't endorse, and don't personally think is true, but it's out there) that any man would welcome sex with any halfway attractive woman at any time (barring physical injury or conflicting monogamous committment). In that context, a rejection sends the message "While I am a member of the gender that is constantly, indiscriminately, and uncontrollably horny, you don't meet even my abysmally low standards. As a man, I'll fuck pretty much anything, but not you." Which, you know, pretty rough; and the presumption it's based on? Still pretty strong in our society. (B) This is less strong, but we've still got a bit of a sexual double standard: sex without an emotional attachment is less okay for a woman than for a man. If the guy is turning you down, clearly there's no emotional attachment going on; when you get rejected, you aren't just repulsive, you're a repulsive slut.
Now, again, this is all outmoded nonsense, and I've stated it overly strongly, and emotionally healthier and more feminist women than I are far enough past all this that it may be entirely unfamiliar sounding. But for at least some women, that's part of what makes the whole 'risking rejection' thing awfully hard.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:44 PM
IDP asked Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected?
Of course it's humiliating to get rejected for anyone, but women get a weird double message about coming onto men: 1) men like to be the sexually assertive ones (so any woman who comes on to a man is a floozy) and 2) men are so horny and inhibited that they love women who come on to them (you can't go wrong!)
So to get over #1 and then to be proven wrong about #2 is extra-shitty-feeling. Men get all kinds of other bad advice about coming on to women, but they're usually also adviced to just suck up the humiliation and keep going for it. Women don't usually get this message, though they should.
Wow, that was wordy.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:45 PM
77: Then what we really want to know is what is the smallest attraction signal that any reasonable guy will pick up.
A clearly stated sentence, or a kiss. Anything short of that and some otherwise apparently sane men are not going to be able to pick it up.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:46 PM
82: Hah. You think you're wordy. I pwn your pitiful wordiness.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:47 PM
81: Mmm. Rejection sucks for everyone. If you're a guy, there is a similarly long list of negatives that you can ascribe to yourself.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:48 PM
That's why you make the big bucks, LB.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:48 PM
With the exception of noted porn director bphd, y'all aren't working very hard to come up with other gestures.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:51 PM
If you're a guy, there is a similarly long list of negatives that you can ascribe to yourself.
Sure, rejection sucks for everyone, and women should suck it up and make more first moves. But it's not abnormal for a guy to be rejected, it's an expected part of the process. Rough, but it doesn't make you bizarrely undesirable, you just asked the wrong woman. (And still, we should suck it up and make more first move. Absolutely. Not saying we shouldn't. If you want to encourage this behavior, doing what you can to shoot down the 'Guys will fuck anything' meme will help.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:52 PM
There's a little bit of SB in us all.
There's a little bit of Weiner in me sometimes.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 4:58 PM
, it's an expected part of the process
I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of faithful reporting guys do to their friends about this sort of thing. Just as we've all had threesomes, very few of us are outright rejected. Usually we decide to go a different direction for one reason or another.
And, to be clear, if "slut" is the negative designation that women worry about, "rapist" or "sexual harasser" is the one that men worry about.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:19 PM
Perhaps a man who doesn't want to give offense or hurt someone would be well advised to fake cluelessness, since almost any level of it might be plausible.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:19 PM
I have already posted my entire eye-contact seduction method all over this thread. It was developed over several years of going to college with nerdy misogynistic guys who have to be come onto in a way that makes them feel they are doing the coming on (lest they freak out about what kind of woman would want them, in a Groucho way).
I am wary of touching faces, as Bitch suggests in 59. Any degree of tactile sensitivity would make a person cringe from facial touching. I barely touch my own face, for Chrissakes.
On the whole, it's clear that whoever is giving the signals of sexual desire should not be the same person who initiates the action. This is important. If I am communicating physical attraction, sexual availability, and general readiness, it must be the guy who makes the move. If the guy is touching my knee, leaning in, making broad hints, it is therefore my duty to kiss him.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:27 PM
92: I should correct myself on the face-touching. Face-touching is fine if you're already horny. If not, it feels revolting. I had a girlfriend who kept coming onto me in college by touching my face and breasts while we were hanging out. I finally had to explain to her that if I was already hot for her, that would be fine, but outside of that context, it made me feel a little nauseous and invaded. That was the end of the friendship, right there, with her crying, "I make you feel nauseous? It wouldn't had she started somewhere less sensitive and built up.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:32 PM
This thread is starting to depress me. I'm going to stare at a picture of Buck for a bit to remind myself that none of this is my problem anymore.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:32 PM
Missing end-quote
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:33 PM
LB, that's a funny way of saying you want to sleep with me.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:37 PM
Other ways to indicate interest: don't use a public forum to indicate interest in a woman not two hours after trying to set something up with a different woman in the same public forum. That might seem counterintuitive, but it's true.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:40 PM
Yeah, but I'm married -- that officially makes me an entirely sexless, safe flirting target. Right, B.?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:42 PM
Me, I'm a newly-single, sexed up, dangerous flirting target. I dare you, ogged. You man enough?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 5:58 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:01 PM
Just out of curiosity, who would you be most interesting in dating here, LB, if you weren't a safe, sexless married person?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:01 PM
[redacted]
Posted by [redacted] | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:02 PM
I think I've stated before that I have a blogcrush on dsquared (also safely married), although it was before I saw hiom comment here much. I do have a soft spot for really effective vitriol.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:04 PM
It's the accent, isn't it? Fucking Brits.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:07 PM
Welsh, too -- notably silver-tongued.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:07 PM
No vowels, though.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:09 PM
What do you call 'w'?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:16 PM
I call him the worst president ever.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:19 PM
Nice.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:23 PM
It's times like this when I wish I had had the foresight to use a fake name. Oh well. I should make one up just for unfogged.
Yay for Ogged!
Posted by Saheli | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:34 PM
Ilehas is available.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:37 PM
And with some strategic spacing and accents could look attractively French!
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:43 PM
Isn't that one of these new gourmet Ice-cream companies?
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:46 PM
On the whole, it's clear that whoever is giving the signals of sexual desire should not be the same person who initiates the action. This is important. If I am communicating physical attraction, sexual availability, and general readiness, it must be the guy who makes the move. If the guy is touching my knee, leaning in, making broad hints, it is therefore my duty to kiss him.
This I like, and would tolerably describe what has happened in all my successful sexual encounters. It's a straightforward reciprocity system. But it still requires interpretation--that is, it doesn't address cluelessness--and assumes both want. Still wish it were easier to walk away without hurt. The remembered vulnerability expressed here late this afternoon really gets to me.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 6:55 PM
111/112: huh, I will try to work with that.
Posted by Saheli | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:09 PM
y'all aren't working very hard to come up with other gestures
Not so much a gesture, but one can make an overtly over-the-top and ostensibly not-for-real proposition. E.g., "We should probably make out now."
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:12 PM
Constant eye contact, lean shoulders back against a wall, thrust out chest.
Done.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:19 PM
98: Yes.
Is it humiliating for a woman to come on to someone and be rejected? I mean politely, respectfully. Why? Yes. Smartass answer: because women are human beings. Less smartass answer: in my experience, men rejecting women (me) usually act as if there's something wrong with me for asking. Not exactly "slut," but more "weirdo." Guys aren't as practiced as women at letting people down easily, at least not when they're young.
More tips:
- Along the lines of O's "tousle his hair" advice: I'm a big fan of the elbow nudge. You're walking along, he says something jokey, and you nudge him teasingly with your elbow. Other variations: poking him a bit in the ribs, the "ooh, you're ticklish?" maneuver, the lighthearted play slap fight, the "put up your dukes" move, whatever. Yes, they're silly; but they're easy to carry off, and like a puppy lowering its head to the ground, they're invitations to play.
- Posing. This is femmey, so O. will disapprove (though guys do their own versions of it). Whatever. Show off. If you have to bend down to pick something up, bend at the waist, not the knees, and stick your ass out a bit. If you're waiting for someone to meet you, lean insouciantly against something, perhaps with most of your weight on one foot and the other hip stuck out. If your hair is in a ponytail, reach your arms a little higher than they need to be while fixing it and arch your back just a bit. Lean over a bit at the waist while putting on lipstick (or chapstick, whatever) in a window and again, arch back/stick ass out. Yes, these things are ridiculous, but think of them as acting or as jokey play. Really, shy or kinda young guys are not thinking you look like a dork: they're too worried that *they* look like dorks. Sticking your ass in their faces might snap them out of their self-conscious fretting for a moment.
- Really easy and obvious: when in a group, wait for the person you like. Linger until they show up, then be visibly happy to see them. This takes a while and you might have to do it a few times, but astute ppl will pick up on it. Corrolary: if someone is waiting around for you, there's a reason. Hop on the clue train.
- Teasing. Give the person a little bit of shit. Everyone here knows how to do this. It generally works best from girls to guys, I suspect, but reasonably confident non-femmey girls can usually deal. Again, this is basically an invitation to play, and can easily lead to elbow nudging, hair tousling, etc.
- The awkward pause is your friend. Yes, sometimes awkward pauses just mean "jesus, you're a freak" or "wow, I wish I were somewhere else," but if you've been getting along well, joking or talking or enjoying yourselves, and a silence falls, that is your opportunity to change the mood. Hold the eye contact, smile, offer a compliment: "I'm really having a good time," "you're fun to talk to," "gosh, you're smart," "I'm glad you suggested this place," whatever. How do they react? If they smile or look abashed, that's good. If they kiss you, there you are. If they blanch or brush it off, it's not so good--they might be realizing "oops, this person is interested and I'm not." Or they might just be shy, in which case you pull back gently, but try not to backpedal or blanch yourself at the perceived rejection: instead, go with something like "I've had a good time, can I walk you home?" or "to your car?" or "thank you, dinner was lovely, but maybe I should be going now." The trick is that the recovery = comment + possibility for escape. If they take the escape route, then you know. If they try to recover ("do you have time for a drink?" "do you need a ride home?") then maybe it's just shyness. In which case, they like you but maybe aren't quite ready yet, and you ask them out for a second date.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:23 PM
Wordy much?
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:25 PM
119- me.
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:26 PM
I am totally picturing B leading "bend and snap" classes à la Legally Blonde.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:31 PM
118: Gosh, you're smart.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:31 PM
Those are good, B. (Except for posing, as you say.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:40 PM
116-me
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:45 PM
I especially approve of the *pause then compliment* maneouvre. God, B, you should set up a "Flirting for Engineers" website or something.
(I couldn't ever do the posing thing naturally, though: too hyperactive/self-conscious.)
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:46 PM
I sometimes like to literally ask the woman if I can kiss her.
Dsquared is one of my favorite bloggers/commenters of all time, but I don't know if I want to date him.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:50 PM
Posing *is* good. Not everyone wants to do it, which is cool, but it does work. Don't pretend, Mr. I-don't-like-femmey-women, that you've never checked out a woman's ass, and that no woman has ever known you were doing so. And guys pose too, like I said.
But if you're not a show-off, all the other things work too.
Re. hyperactive: can you pull off cute? High energy, babbly, or frisky are all different kinds of posing, and can be damn attractive.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:55 PM
do the posing thing naturally
Doing it unnaturally would get the point across more quickly.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 7:56 PM
125: I may be wrong about this, as I sometimes confuse the backstory's of my invisible internet friends, but weren't you a dancer at one point? Doesn't dancing require one to hold a position for a period of time?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:09 PM
Dammit. The ogged-alarm failed to go off. I'm a bit late.
Well, let me disagree with Smasher: if formulated as a tousle rather than a whack on the head, the hair-touching thing is a big signal for me. For one thing, it's what I was always told during the great Middle School-era sharing of romantic knowledge -- even sixth graders know that a girl touching your hair means something. For another, I just sort of like it. Tastes differ, apparently. Consider it a high-risk maneuver.
But really, any physical contact should send the signal. For a particularly low-risk maneuver, I suggest letting the guy turn to go get a drink/waiter/cross the street, then grabbing and gently pulling him back by his shirt or sleeve (tie? probably not). At that point you should say something sweet or funny. If it's well-received, proceed with the more overt signals mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
I imagine this move should be employed by women. It'd probably work on me, anyway. My sense is that it'd be much harder for men to pull off without seeming threatening. But then, we probably all have that sense about each of these moves for our own gender, for various reasons. Meeting people=easy, hitting on them=hard.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:11 PM
things i've found successful (with a note that the lean-in/brush thing ogged suggested is classic):
-if you're standing and talking face to face, reaching out and tugging a little on his shirt where it hits his waist to pull him a little closer
-the tickling/playful stuff that b mentioned above. it sounds stupid in theory but is pretty effective in execution.
-barring all that, get him drunk and make him listen to radiohead. worked like a charm!
Posted by catherine | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:14 PM
130-1: tom, did you sound catherine's ogged-alarm? it's eerie how close together you two posted.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:19 PM
I think these are all good suggestions; the thing to remember is that it's impossible to come up with a maneuver that is both unambiguous AND plausibly deniable, so start with those of the latter category and screw up your courage for the former.
The eye contact thing is a great one, although I was once too clueless to pick up on it, which led to a really weird conversation in which my inner monologue was "Damn, why does she keep pausing and looking at me and not saying anything?" and hers was "Why isn't this moron kissing me?"
Posted by Matthew Harvey | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:21 PM
132: actually, it was completely coincidental. so was the shirt thing and the twin radiohead references. weird.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:23 PM
I've printed out Bitch's comments, put them in my pocket but I fear my intended target may have moved on by the time I've finished reading them.
Posted by Herr Torquewrench | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:27 PM
!
How could I have forgotten the most obvious and applicable come-on? Becks, you should ask the guy if he'd like to guest-blog on your site.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:36 PM
136 - Only a real man could get past the pink.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:38 PM
Don't pretend, Mr. I-don't-like-femmey-women, that you've never checked out a woman's ass
B, of course I have, but only when specifically asked, and even then, in pursuit not of booty itself, but my full human flourishing.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:43 PM
127: I do okay with channelling the twitchiness into cuteness once I've decided that, yes, in fact I do want to sleep with so-and-so.
129: Poses qua poses still feel contrived. [Musing] Perhaps this has something to do with my balletic untraining into Limon and postmodern forms. [/Musing] More practically, some of what B describes as posing, I wouldn't even think of as a signal: picking something up from the ground without bending my knees, for example. Other stuff, like sticking out my ass while putting on lipstick, would take a serious committment to posturing. Dance training doesn't necessarily convert into body movement as social rhetoric.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 8:50 PM
138: Posing is a kind of non-verbal asking. And booty is totally part of full human flourishing.
139: That's interesting. Bending one's knees and doing the hyper femmey "knees together, ladies, and dooooown to pick something up" is also a pose, but I'm always self-conscious if I pick something up without bending my knees *at all*, b/c I'm aware that that means "ass in the air." Or maybe it's bending from the waist specifically, keeping one's back straight, that feels posey to me, rather than bending at the back and sort of just scooping whatever it is up.
But then I'm no dancer; I'm kind of slouchy, really, unless I'm thinking about it. When I'm thinking about it and straightening my back and holding my shoulders properly, it feels to me like sticking my ass and tits out and showing off.
Now, of course, I'm very curious about how you pick things up from the floor without either bending your knees or displaying your ass....
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:00 PM
Really easy and obvious: when in a group, wait for the person you like. Linger until they show up, then be visibly happy to see them. This takes a while and you might have to do it a few times, but astute ppl will pick up on it. Corrolary: if someone is waiting around for you, there's a reason. Hop on the clue train.
I really shouldn't be giving advice, considering my, um, history, but I'd add to this that separating a bit from the group once you've met up with the person you like - hanging back a little if you're all walking somewhere, that kind of thing - can work as a signal too.
That's actually the first sign I noticed in what became the not so hypothetical scenario in 47. (My thinking in that case was along the lines of Jackmormon's 56 and we ended up becoming just friends. But in retrospect I've pretty much concluded that it would have been better if I'd tried that whole verbal communication idea.)
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:00 PM
Aren't you supposed to bend your knees to pick stuff up?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:01 PM
Yeah, these women sure sound flexible. I'm pretty sure I couldn't pick something up without bending my knees.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:08 PM
Heavy crap, sure, Matt. We're talking little stuff like a purse or a book or whatever.
I think.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:08 PM
143 - Hello? That's why we do all that yoga.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:10 PM
Teo, in my case, it's just that I have short legs.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:11 PM
63 may be relevant to how to pick things up.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:11 PM
Also, psychokinesis is hott.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:12 PM
I'm very curious about how you pick things up from the floor without either bending your knees or displaying your ass....
This is one of the many benefits that comes with having a long, prehensile penis.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:17 PM
I doubt that helps B, though. Unless its attached to someone who will pick things up for her.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:19 PM
What B needs is an Indian manservant with a long, prehensile penis.
Maybe she can borrow ogged's.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:28 PM
(As an aside, I take great pleasure in the fact that Unfogged is the #1 Google hit for "Indian manservant.")
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:31 PM
What about doing the splits?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:32 PM
Kinda OT, but PK was actually literally peeling grapes for me the other day.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:33 PM
God, B, you should set up a "Flirting for Engineers" website or something.
It's been done.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:34 PM
118:
It was a deliberately obtuse question, but it got good, kind of angry and sorrowful answers. As to the human being thing, I got plenty of rejection for my overtures, some more graceful than others. Someone far up one of these threads, was it Dsquared? suggested that American misogyny was fueled by in part by rejection and the fear of it. If so I can comprehend that, without respect or sympathy. It's wounded vanity.
Had a very early (for me), very interesting sexual encounter with a girl who, I realise looking back, had to do all the work. I just walked up to her on the lawn before class and expressed interest. Excuse me? She got a little flushed, I think more mad than embarrassed, and started an exchange the purpose of which was to determine if anything about her had suggested to me she would be receptive. This, I recognise now, is the "slut" issue. I managed the task of indicating that, although I had no reason at all to think she would be any more likely than anybody else to agree, I was none the less very attracted to her. I had in fact just thought of it as I walked up; I have no idea what possessed me. I hadn't particularly noticed her before. I think she had more of a sense of me, since the class--Esthetics, Dewey and Tolstoy--was one where I participated quite a bit, even though it was a large section. So, with that understanding, more or less explicitly sexual, we agreed to meet at her dorm at the appointed hour.
So there I am. What I'm doing there is clear to both of us, it's obviously ok, and I'm still not making any moves. Eye rolling, head shaking, barely suppressed laughter. (Enormously lucky to have picked, at random, as I had carefully explained, a smart one with a good sense of humor) "All right," she says, "let's go to the liquor store. You do drink, don't you?" "Yes" "What?" "Beer" "Can you drink four or five, do you think?" "Yes, I think so.""You've got money, right?" I had. I was also of age, she wasn't. Bought a six pack, found a dark place on the lawn behind Orton (Ohio State story, early seventies) She had one, I had the rest. Her father was an English chemical engineer, resident in Cleveland, her mother American. They had recently divorced. Turned out her roomate, an apparently shy black girl, was in a very small class with me, Early Twentieth Century American Novel, and therefore had a pretty good sense of me.
I'm a little unsteady on my feet, obviously in no condition to drive. She literally leads me by the hand onto the dorm elevator, then some chicanery involving shoving me off on a men's floor (they alternated) coming back after seeing the coast was clear, hauling me into her room and up into her bunk (top). Lie beside. This is exciting, even if I'm not entirely in command of my faculties. Warm late spring night, lots of noise. Some dozing, probably, don't remember how long. I need to let some of this beer out. Two choices: downstairs one flight, with elevator negotiation, or take my chances on this, all-girls floor. I'll be on my own. I choose the latter; it comes off ok, with some giggles attendant on my coming and going from other people on the floor; I'm clearly still in an altered state. Back up top. After a while, she decides to see what she's got. She's in complete control. "Shh!" "You lie still. I'll move" And she does. Masterful, magnificent, funny. And she's very happy about it. Can still see her the next morning early, sitting on the lower bunk with the roomate, laughing. We all laughed. They kicked me out and I drove home.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:34 PM
how you pick things up from the floor without either bending your knees or displaying your ass
The whole point of serious balletic training is to imbed in one's body the way to do such movements gracefully and unconsciously. Without thinking, I would likely perform such an action "mi-quarts," or on a forty-five degree from my audience. Still. Never mind that it's been at least six years since I've had any pretension to being a dancer and haven't even tried to do the splits for a couple of years now. (When I did do the splits in front of guys, eb, it was 1) when I was about 17 and 2) part of that whole "I'm so much more hardcore than you suckers could even understand" attitude.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:45 PM
)
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:47 PM
Hey, Jack. Are you, um, not reading your email again?
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 9:58 PM
This really belongs on the previous thread, but ogged seems to have thoroughly pwned it, so here's a couple highlights from a life of cluelessness:
First off, I want to endorse B's outstanding advice for groups of friends. When I was an exceedingly clueless teen, a (quite shy) girl totally got my attention and became my first real GF through this move - and this in a group of generally flirty teens. Shortly after, I made her a mix tape (yes!) that was about 24 love songs and 2 filler; I wasn't sure if she'd get the message. Because it was, you know, so smooth.
4 months earlier, this (possibly slutty, I thought) neighbor girl I'd been flirting with called me up to inform me that her parents and kid brother were out for the evening, and that she was in her bed, and cold. So I invited her to my house. Where my parents were. The fact that this led to my first real kiss is small, tiny, even invisible solace 18 years later.
Other examples ensued (some of which I'm sure I still don't know about). I'm convinced that the reason I succeeded in marrying my wife is that she was able to pierce all my cluelessness and just make it happen.
Posted by JRoth | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:13 PM
...If your hair is in a ponytail, reach your arms a little higher than they need to be while fixing it and arch your back just a bit.
I remember seeing a picture of this maneuver in a book from perhaps the late 1950s, judging by my recollection of the typical young academic type outfits. The book was probably anthro or sociology, and the caption said something about 'female displaying her breasts to catch a male's attention'. I wish I could remember author or title, but my only association is to Gregory Bateson. Whether he was author, in the picture, or spuriously associated, I can't recall.
Posted by Michael H Schneider | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:14 PM
Slo--
Well, yes. But now that I have read it, or some of it, I remain unclear on *when* ya'll were talking about.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:40 PM
Thanks for hanging out today, everyone. Adios.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:42 PM
Nice to see you around again as well.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:44 PM
Was that really ogged, or what it all just a dream?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:45 PM
cum hair tousle
It's not a look many people can pull off.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:45 PM
Come on, eb, I'm trying to keep my keyboard dry.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:53 PM
Hasta luego, Ogged. Thanks for stopping by.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:54 PM
Y'all come back now, ogged.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 10:58 PM
Cela me ferait bien plaisir si vous vous decideriez d'y revenir, ogged. Jusqu'a lors, je vous souhaite le plus bon hasard.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 11:25 PM
Really, what I want to know, though, is whether I missed my chance to meet Slow.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 04- 6-06 11:28 PM
I just caught myself thinking the melody to this. Stealth earworm post title.
And holy crap there's a giant bug on the wall.
Time for giant bug, Peter Cetera and I to call it a night.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 12:27 AM
Glad to see you, Ogged. Be sure to stop back by during the NBA finals. Go Mavs!
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 12:28 AM
You lot are all Eric Raymond and I demand my five quid prize.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 12:59 AM
'smasher, it's going to be tough for you to see the Mavs get stomped by the Spurs tonight, isn't it?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:32 AM
Jack, check your email -- slo's going to be around on Monday.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:44 AM
Dude, we're looking at a special exemption to fill our roster. We're working out Shawn Kemp. I'm just hoping Powell and Howard get some decent minutes tonight.
But did you hear that they were tossing around Laettner's name as a replacement for Van Horn? God, wouldn't that be sweet?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:48 AM
Funny story -- I saw Shawn Kemp at Denny's not too long ago, at about 6 a.m.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:50 AM
178: Was he waiting tables?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:54 AM
No, he was beating on the door with his cane, all pissed and hungry.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:55 AM
161:
I remember seeing that one on Gidget.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 8:56 AM
But did you hear that they were tossing around Laettner's name as a replacement for Van Horn? God, wouldn't that be sweet?
So you want a Dookie on your team. People from Dallas really are in league with the Devil, aren't they?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:26 AM
See, I see him and I just think T-Wolves.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:43 AM
I tend to see him and think of the Hawks.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 3:35 PM
Finding ways to touch the person you're signalling is the way to go. It establishes a mutual comfort with bodily contact, and concentrates the mind on the physical. Taking his arm, leaning head on shoulder, touching cheek, long look in eyes, all good.
You work up to the point where you're in an alone situation and then move in close and STAY THERE -- forcing the other person to either kiss or whatever, or move away. (If the footrub/towel captain had leaned her head real close during the footrub to the head of the guy, or vice versa, they would've skipped dinner.)
Besides touching, there's also asking outright:
"Are your lips on the mood for a kiss?"
And after kissing, if you want to go further: "Are you going to be really mean and send me home to masturbate furiously over you tonight?"
Just thought we shouldn't leave it all up to Bitch to do the training here.
Posted by Adam Ash | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 6:56 PM
"Are your lips on the mood for a kiss?"
This formulation is pretty cutesy.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 7:23 PM
So that's a no?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 7:29 PM
I got plenty of advice, back in the day. I took it in the spirit I would take B's today, were I looking for it: examples of how it's done, which admit of variations, but mostly which show what the correct attitude looks and feels like.
But there was something else interesting. I got in the habit of wearing my heart on my sleeve with the kind of people--all right, older men--who sometimes had something interesting to say. In this way I became privy to all sorts of reminiscences--hey mid-seventies, right period--of first sexual encounters, some from long ago. Had a mentor or two who caught on to this and either sat back to see what I could pull out of people, or responded by telling stories told to them.
Never tried this with a woman, although I had several female tutors, including the professor I was studying Eighteenth C poetry with. I remember I did tell her the girl-on-the lawn story, which she enjoyed very much. She must have been about seventy-five then, she'd be about 106 now. She was the first person to explain to me why the first thing the girl needed to know was why I had asked her.
My adviser had been in the Kriegsmarine during the war. His physical self-image was as bad as Stendhal's, justifiably, my callow self thought, although he had a beautiful young wife. His stories gave me a fortaste of Das Boot.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 7:59 PM
The obvious move in any situation, is to invite the other party to stroke your Colt 10mm sidearm.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:29 PM
186: Yeah, I gotta agree. I'm afraid something like that would put me right off.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:44 PM
Although I suppose that, like everything else in the world, it all depends on delivery.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:45 PM
How 'bout "Is your tongue in the mood for rimming?"
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:52 PM
190: Yeah, I think the answer to that question would always be "no".
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:52 PM
And the other question?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 9:54 PM
The answer is "I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that term."
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 04- 7-06 11:45 PM
What about this dialogue?
Cappie: Are you interested in politics?
Maggie: So so.
Cappie: Are you interested in cars?
Maggie: No.
Cappie: Are you interested in wide receivers?
Maggie: What's that?
Cappie: The position I play.
Maggie: Oh, is that what you do? Sorta.
Cappie: Are you interested in being kissed?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 04- 8-06 12:09 AM