Re: Mmm, that mackerel is totally spongeworthy.

1

Do we have a term for someone who articulates a position you more-or-less agree with... in such a manner that you find you don't agree with it any more?

Saletanning. I believe he has just argued for every position and annoyed me so much that I don't agree with any of them.

horizontal rule
2

But do his annoying arguments make you reject your initial positions outright, or just refine them so as to differentiate your own beliefs from his?

horizontal rule
3

I am now a member of DETS, Dolphins for the Ethical Treatment of Sponges.

horizontal rule
4

3 sets of twins per 100 live births? That seems like a lot. Still not going to get me to give up my cheese, though. Yum.

horizontal rule
5

Dolphin cheese? What?

horizontal rule
6

My wife is petrified of having twins. On the other hand, she loves cheese. I'm expecting a freak-out when I send her this article.

(Wait, so what about organic rGBH-free milk? Are we cool?)

horizontal rule
7

5: 4 references an update to the original post.

horizontal rule
8

My wife is petrified of having twins.

I don't think I've ever heard of that. Not that it seems implausible, I've just never heard of it.

horizontal rule
9

I'm curious what the twinning rate is in Manhattan. Seems like every stroller I see is a double-wide. (Although I'm sure that has more to do with IVF than rGBH).

horizontal rule
10

IDP, I'd never heard of it either. It's weird. She's keen on having children, but the idea of having more than one at a time really wigs her out.

I don't deny that having twins would be a lot more work than having just one baby, but I don't regard the possibility with terror.

horizontal rule
11

9: A lot of adoption agencies have their "Summer Sale" about now, as well.

horizontal rule
12

I very much don't want to have twins either, mrh, although I wouldn't exactly say I'm pertrified at the prospect.

Synthetic growth hormone is one of those things that I've always been just plain suspicious of. In a number of years, I believe it'll be linked to all sorts of harms in humans--beyond the antibiotic resistance stuff, I mean.

horizontal rule
13

I suppose I'm exaggerating slightly for rhetorical effect. She very much doesn't want to have twins. I don't particularly want to have twins, but possibly because I have siblings who are twins I'm more confident about our ability to handle it.

horizontal rule
14

"In the beginning of this Saletan piece arguing that society should move as rapidly as possible toward eating meat grown from lab cultures...."

I'd like some Coffiest to go with my Chicken Little, please.

horizontal rule
15

If ogged knew that people were using Seinfeld jokes in their post titles, he'd roll over in his grave bed.

horizontal rule
16

Or if he knew that we were not rejecting out of hand the idea of in vitro meat.

horizontal rule
17

because I have siblings who are twins

That right there is why she's petrified. I would be too.

horizontal rule
18

I don't understand 17.

horizontal rule
19

She's more likely to have twins if there's a genetic predisposition to same. I think. Actually, maybe that's not true if the predisposition is on the man's side....

I have a friend who had twins not once, but twice. The second pair were born before the first were three years old. Seriously, even though twins are cute and all, they're just way, way more work. One baby means exhaustion for at least a year. Two?!?

horizontal rule
20

18: Me either. Though I have to say, IIRC, women still end up doing the vast majority of the work in child rearing, so it's not entirely unexpected that mrh's wife might worry about twins and he might not.

horizontal rule
21

Cross-posted.

horizontal rule
22

Just think for a few minutes about the logistics of feeding two newborns, knowing that they want to nurse about every hour.

horizontal rule
23

I'm pretty sure that fraternal twins on the male side don't indicate a genetic predisposition to twins. 'Sides which, my little brother and sister are delightful.

While it's true that I probably won't be able to contribute much to the nursing of our hypothetical twins, I don't think the assymetry of our concern has to do with our expected shares of child-rearing duties.


horizontal rule
24

I'm curious what the twinning rate is in Manhattan. Seems like every stroller I see is a double-wide.

In certain neighborhoods in NYC, I was always struck by the fact that pretty much every stroller was either:

1) A middle-aged white woman pushing a Chinese baby.

or

2) A young Asian woman pushing a white baby.

horizontal rule
25

23: Oh, I'm sure they're delightful. That's beside the point, though. Just think about the laundry. . . .

horizontal rule
26

I'm not petrified of having twins, but damn, the thought of one baby kicking my bladder is enough. Two? Where would they fit? Forget hypothetical worries about asymmetrical child rearing responsibilities? Where they gonna fit?

horizontal rule
27

Well, usually they're smaller than singletons, but yeah. My twin-bearing friend got enormously huge during her pregnancies....

horizontal rule
28

Smaller, feh. Even a singleton is going to fit in there how? My mom got enormously huge bearing only one child at a time. Two is right out. I'd need a wheelchair to carry my stomach around in.

horizontal rule
29

Yeah, I got pretty bulbous too. PK was over 10 lbs.

horizontal rule
30

I remember hearing it said about Margaret Thatcher that she'd been lucky to have fraternal twins, because that meant she could get back to work so much faster. I'm sure she and Denis had help for those pesky details. Although she was of lower-middle-class background, she rose rapidly.

horizontal rule
31

I actually used to say I wanted a singleton, and then twins. B/c I thought three kids would be cool, y'see, so might as well get it over with. Now I'm wondering if I even want two.

horizontal rule
32

We were all between 6 and 8 pounds, but my mom was bulbable, I guess.

horizontal rule
33

How many of you were there?!?

horizontal rule
34

Erm, we're not twins or multiples. (Four kids.)

horizontal rule
35

Four non-twins = four pregnancies. My sympathy to your mother!

horizontal rule
36

Indeed. She's a trooper.

horizontal rule
37

My mum got truly enormous with my brother (he's 20 years younger than me) and he was almost a month late too. He was 10.5 lbs which is pretty large, imho. He looked like he was about to get up and walk.

horizontal rule
38

Also, re: the anecdotal observed rise in twins -- fertility treatment and in vitro fertilisation in particular make twins and triplets much more common. I'd imagine the fact that many people are leaving childbirth till later in life also contributes to the apparently larger number of twins seen out and about.

horizontal rule
39

Yeah, PK was 10 lbs 1 oz, and two weeks late. The picture of him on the scale, he looks like a huge Tgiving turkey.

horizontal rule
40

38 is certainly correct for my Brooklyn neighborhood. Double- and triple-wides abound due to the extremely high average age of mothers during their first pregnancy. Park Slope is where you go when you turn 45 and suddenly go, "Whoa, shit! I gotta make copies of this shit!"

I agree with 1 wholeheartedly. I started reading the article and thought, huh, okay, yeah, there are really good economical reasons for vegetarianism (one of the reasons I have been veg for 11 years), yes, and. Oh. This is taking a left turn. Now it is stupid. This is why everyone gives vegetarians a hard time about everything.

horizontal rule
41

AWB, learn to use the "preview" button. I'm not always dumb enough to use the word "shit" twice in eight words.

horizontal rule
42

Heh, I thought that was on purpose, and I enjoyed it as being really humorous and colloquial. So there.

horizontal rule
43

42 gets it exactly right.

horizontal rule
44

I am funniest when unintentional.

horizontal rule
45

36: "Indeed. She's a trooper."

I've noticed for a while that this has become one of the most popular malapropisms.

The actual traditional phrase is "trouper," as in someone who participates well in the "troupe" -- not that they're members of the military, or on a horse.

No, no, don't thank me! I know people love to be corrected. I live to please.

horizontal rule
46

19/22- I understand having twins would be rough, lots of work. I was confused because, as has been pointed out, having twins in the father's family doesn't in any way affect the chance of a mother bearing twins. There's already billions of sperm in there; the key to twins in multiple eggs, and releasing multiple eggs is a female quirk. Men have nothing to do with it.

I was confused because I thought this was well-known.

horizontal rule
47

The key to fraternal twins is multiple eggs. Identical twins result from the splitting of a single egg -- I don't know whether a tendency for identical twins is genetically transmitted, but if it is, I don't know that it couldn't be transmitted through the male line.

horizontal rule
48

Yes, but not all twins are fraternal (multiple eggs). Some are identical (a single zygote splits). Genetic predisposition contributes to identical twins, too, but I don't know if that's exclusively the mom or if the dad has a hand in it as well.

horizontal rule
49

Pwned.

horizontal rule
50

Pwned.

horizontal rule
51

Goddamnit, it told me the comment hadn't posted.

horizontal rule
52

46 was me. 47/48- yes, not sure why I didn't mention identical twins. That too is a girl problem. Not sure to what extent it's genetic, but very sure the man's genetics play zero role.

horizontal rule
53

My mom had two kids, me and my sister, and then (fraternal) twins. She was enormous. My dad said she'd stop traffic walking down the street. And they were definitely hard work: in all the pictures of her in the year or two after the twins were born she looks exhausted.

horizontal rule
54

Is your wife aware of this narrative, not just the fact but the hugeness, the exhaustion? That might be it, you know.

horizontal rule
55

My favorite twinning concept is superfecundation -- that if a woman has sex with two men while she is ovulating, she can end up with twins from different fathers.

horizontal rule
56

Hm.

horizontal rule
57

And even weirder (and rarer) - superfetation, twins of different ages.

horizontal rule
58

The Montaigne essay refers to a case of stuporfecundation.

horizontal rule
59

Is 50 a meta-pwn?

horizontal rule
60

54: Oh, I don't think there's any doubt that's it.

horizontal rule
61

My mother and her two best friends averaged 7 2/3 kids. They all lived past 85, 2 in good health. I think that the traditional ill health effects of multiple childbirth were mostly the result of malnutrition, and of overwork between births.

horizontal rule
62

It may not kill you, but dude, pregnancy sucks. Doing it 7 or 8 (or god forbid 13 or however many) times in a lifetime would just be appalling, I don't care how long you lived afterwards.

horizontal rule
63

Both of my wives LOVED being pregnant.

horizontal rule
64

They're clearly insane.

horizontal rule
65

64: It didn't take the evidence in 63 to convince you of that, did it?

horizontal rule
66

They had easy pregnancies. Difficult deliveries, but easy pregnancies.

horizontal rule
67

I didn't mind it all that much, and less the second time than the first -- it was much less weird the second time. Still wouldn't say I liked it, but if I were living in a social milieu where having six kids made sense, I wouldn't be dreading the pregnancies particularly.

horizontal rule
68

Well, sure, but I'm a modern girl, and I'm not used to waddling or throwing up all the time.

horizontal rule
69

You really couldn't find three more cheerful, more active women. One had a stroke when her youngest kid was about 30, and that was horrible, but I don't think that pregnancies contributed to that.

None of them worked outside the home. None were rich, either, or had servants.

horizontal rule
70

Neither one had a hint of morning sickness and both are tall enough that they didn't really waddle until the very last bit. Shrug.

horizontal rule
71

45: Sounds more like an eggcorn than a malapropism.

horizontal rule
72

Is the jury still out on whether there are health benefits long-term of having been pregnant? Other things being equal, as if there was any way to know except in large aggregates.

In Brave New World, 1932, Aldus Huxley has women, who are not breeders in the test-tube world of the future, take a periodic "pregnancy substitute" pill. He was presumably sophisticated about then-current biological thinking through his brother Julian.

horizontal rule
73

There's a breast cancer protective effect, I believe -- nothing else I know about.

horizontal rule
74

73: Don't your breasts get bigger, too? That's got to count as a positive health effect, I think.

horizontal rule
75

45: Thanks. I couldn't remember which was the malapropism and which was the correct form, and I didn't care enough to research before posting a four-word comment.

67: My mother had three relatively easy pregnancies and deliveries, aside from the short woman-hiding-a-beachball-under-her-shirt look. And a strange aversion to the smell of beef. I'm not sure she would have minded having more kids except that her body was clearly telling her during the fourth that five would be pushing it.

73: I'd heard there was a cervical cancer protective effect, too, but I can't remember if that was in the context of anti-abortion propaganda (perhaps something like: women who have children have a less of chance of a certain cancer, so, that means abortion causes cancer, because correlation is too causality. (Take that, Hume.) )

horizontal rule
76

The breast cancer thing is related to nursing, not pregnancy, I think.

horizontal rule
77

I don't think that's quite the case, B. What reduces breast cancer rates is halting the menstrual cycle; it's the constant up and down of estrogen levels that makes breast tissue go awry. Nursing helps prolong that, but not as reliably as just staying pregnant.

horizontal rule
78

76 -- as Frank would say, "You can't have one with out the, other."

horizontal rule
79

I think you're mistaken. You can halt the menstrual cycle by just taking b.c.p. But like I said, I'm remembering what I've read pretty vaguely, though I'd swear it had to do with nursing and that women who bottle-fed had breast cancer rates that weren't different from women who'd never been pregnant.

horizontal rule
80

78: In fact, that's not true. There are adoptive moms who've managed to stimulate lactation in order to breast-feed their babies.

horizontal rule
81

You can halt the menstrual cycle by just taking b.c.p.

Right, but that's still monkeying with estrogen levels. BC reduces levels of certain cancers and raises others, depending on whether they are estrogen-positive or estrogen-negative.

women who bottle-fed

Right, but they only stopped their cycles for nine months, which isn't really significant measured against, say, 40 years of fertility. Historically, women have spent much longer periods of their lives pregnant than they do now, so most modern women have many, many more cycles than their great-great-(etc.)-grandmothers did.

horizontal rule
82

The historically pregnant thing is true, but if memory serves, even breast-feeding one baby for a few months = protective effect. So it seems that it really is the lactation, rather than the pregnancy.

Bcp don't necessarily contain estrogen. Mine don't; the stuff gives me migraines. (Insert joke about femininity or lack thereof here.)

horizontal rule
83

May I suggest this Timesonline piece about attraction for the sort of thread we can't get enough of?

horizontal rule