Man, I was too embarrassed to post about that. I do that to people (that is, consciously working on positive reinforcement, and non-reinforcement rather than punishment for stuff I don't like) and I started thinking about it from dog training books. But people get so weird about it when I start explaining stuff in terms of dog-training.
I've been commenting on one of the threads LB links in the post.
I'm arguing that men are taught that their bodies are inherently disgusting. Any thoughts? Not many male Mineshafters seem to have made it over there and I'd be interested to hear their impressions.
I've got many problems, but not that one. I'm proud, even vain of my body, although I have the distinct sense I'm not supposed to think so, and men and women both often disparage the very idea of such self-satisfaction, often without knowing that's how I feel about myself.
Comment seems to have slowed to a crawl over there anyway, so here's some more of my argument:
There's a cultural trope that while women's bodies are works of art worthy of aesthetic appreciation, men's bodies are lumpy, hairy, ugly, utilitarian objects not deserving such appreciation. Men are, of course, highly valued for other things, but the assumption is that no one is actually attracted to a male body as a body.
This is bullshit, of course, but it's quite widespread in our culture. At least I thought so, but many of the commenters at Bitch's place were very surprised when it was brought up in the men-only thread.
Hey, Teo, I commented over there in response to that. I think men don't get sufficiently and appreciatively objectified, to put it crassly. Or, to put it how I put it in my sex life: "Hold still, I'm objectifying you."
Actually, I'm serious. Not about Wham specifically. But (as I believe I have mentioned here before) the gay aesthetic started to influence women's way of looking at male bodies. Advertising started to contain much more homoerotic imagery, &c. That really has changed a lot since the 70s.
In re: men's bodies, I've noticed that many men in my general age group tend to be off-put by being the object of the gaze. I'm someone for whom looking at the other person's body, carefully and pointedly, is a huge part of sex, and men are freaked out by this. They're like: I don't understand why you want to look at my hairy, lumpy, weird body. Or whatever.
Once, during a make-out session, a girl said to me, "I like your figure." It seemed really odd, perhaps for precisely the reasons teo and JM are singling out.
Then again, it might simply be a weird thing to say to anyone.
Well, 'figure' is a pretty gendered word these days.
This is interesting -- I don't know how much explicit appreciating/complimenting I do. I think it, but I'm not sure if I say it. I'll have to ask Buck.
The "you like that" response is one I often get, when I pay attention to or look at some particular body part.
Also, a dude recently asked me "can men have nice legs? Do you ever think 'man, that dude has some hot legs'?" I was like "are you fucking kidding me?! YES."
I think Michaelangelo did a pretty good job of objectifying male beauty.
But yeah, I know what you mean, teo. The whole "men are naturally slobs" thing, which explains why the concept of "metrosexuals" was seen as so unusual.
Then again (I don't know if I should say this, 'cause it's kind of evil), something that's often appealing about straight men is the fact that they are frequently so clueless about their own attractiveness. I've been seeing this guy for a couple weeks, and he asked me the other day what I thought of him after our first date, and I told him that I was taken aback by how attractive he is, and he was like "dude, what the fuck are you talking about." Totally had no idea, still didn't really believe it, I think.
I haven't caught up on the thread over at B's since last night (being pretty NSFW) but did anyone see the movie P.S.? It's pretty uneven but there is a scene in there where a young man (played by Topher Grace) is subjected to a pretty intense "hold still, I'm objectifying you" situation. There was some other power-trip stuff going on but it was kind of interesting from the perspective of a man being the subject of that kind of sexual scrutiny.
33: Well, it's evil to say that there's some benefit to the "men's bodies are ugly" meme in that guys not being aware of their own attractiveness is appealing.
Because if it's something that is hurtful/damaging, I should renounce it, not say "hey, I like that."
Dude, on this very blog y'all have said shit about how men just flat-out aren't nearly as attractive as women.
Also, I ignored gay men because I hate them. Especially the whiny boy who wrote me to tell me how excluded he felt b/c I didn't put up a thread for gay men to talk about sex. Because, you know, they never get a chance to do that anywhere else.
Okay, I am off to have dinner with an attractive (and much younger!) man. Later, y'all.
I'm not sure how hurtful it really is; you probably shouldn't encourage it, but I don't see much harm in profiting from the effects. As long as you make sure to objectify him.
I really, really, really hate the oft-repeated notion that men are just inherently less attractive than women. It's one of the few things that I can reliably get all fired up about, even to people I have just met. I think it's damaging to both women and men, and is provided as a justification for the objectification of women, and furthermore, is just plain incorrect.
how men just flat-out aren't nearly as attractive as women.
Doesn't this come down to men not knowing how to, or not caring to, work it? Flattering clothes, skin care, posing -- it makes a huge difference, and most women do it and most men don't really.
Speaking of which, there is something incredibly, incredibly hot about watching a man carefully get dressed in a suit in the morning. Like, too fucking hot for words.
"I like your figure" is a kinda weird compliment for either men or women. Somebody said it to me once--okay it was "j'aime ta taille" and it was some random dude in a club--and I had a hard time feeling complimented. Why? Because it's infuriatingly non-specific. It can be roughly translated as "your body turns me on." Not much of a compliment--not unwelcome from an intimate lover, of course, but not much of a compliment.
I like getting compliments from a lover--it's taken me awhile to get comfortable with compliments, but since I had a fair number of body-consciousness issues to get over, it really is quite a relief to hear and believe that he likes [body part X I've freaked out about since I was 13]. And since these little minute fetishizations actually feel good, when combined with other good relationship stuff of course, I've always assumed it felt good in the other direction as well. And, um, I have some confirmation of that.
Women just aren't the only ones who feel insecure and self-conscious. I think men have less practice and discourse available for expressing it, though.
the gay aesthetic started to influence women's way of looking at male bodies
That's just it, though--the stereotype shifted from "men don't have beauty" to "straight men don't have beauty, and gay men are the well-groomed ones". Whether women like how men look doesn't have a lot to do with what the expectations appear to be to men (just as most men really don't prefer women who are absurdly thin, but this doesn't stop women from comparing their figures to the models in ads.)
Re: compliments on body parts, I've occasionally wondered what it would be like to have sex with someone who put a lot of attention/time into their body, like someone who worked out a lot or something. Because often when I pay a compliment like "I really like your arms" or something to a guy, they just seem kind of perplexed, as if because they don't work out, that their arms would be uninteresting.
Anyway, it's moot, as I tend to be mostly unattracted to ripped-ish guys.
I know I've said, I think on my blog and maybe here, that I think there are much smaller standard deviations of male attractiveness than of female attractiveness. This sounds unfortunately like the stupid things Larry Summers said about women's math abilities, and if all he based it one were misread studies, all I'm basing it on is random observations.
Also, it could be explained in part by things like LB's 42 or female attractiveness being more noticable to me than male attractiveness. Except when I first said this a girl I was talking with agreed with me, and I'm therefore exempt from all criticism.
That's just it, though--the stereotype shifted from "men don't have beauty" to "straight men don't have beauty, and gay men are the well-groomed ones".
When did the 'Men are unbeautiful' thing get started, though? Early 20th C literature is riddled with beautiful male images; Lawrence, Housman, I'd come up with more but I'm basically illiterate. Is this a 50's American thing, or what?
Well, she was kind of embracing my torso at the time. (I think "I like your torso" sounds hilarious.) But you're both right, I think. The weirdness comes both from the genderedness that LB points out and from the vagueness JM singles out.
50: I don't know. I think most women tend to put some effort into their appearance. I'm not sure how much qualifies as a lot. I guess it depends on what the compliment is. If someone told me "you have great hair" on a day that I thought it looked like crap, I would be like "what are you talking about?" But if someone made a general compliment about any part of my body (which for the most part doesn't change from day to day), I think my reaction would be "hey, thanks," even though I don't put, I think, that much effort into my appearance relative to other women.
I suspect it has something to do with homophobia (as someone suggested on the other thread). I doubt it's actually derivative of homophobia, but I think the two reinforce each other.
And yeah, probably pretty recent. Twentieth century, most likely.
Painter Ellen Altfest is gaining a lot of attention in the press for a show she curated at I-20 in Chelsea that features paintings of men done by women. Here is her penis still life.
teo, the only sort of thing I've heard is: penises are funny-looking. I'll grant that there isn't a comparable statement about a woman that wouldn't be taken as an insult, rather than a joke. And I have heard the sort of 'women are beautiful goddesses, all curves and such'.
But that doesn't seem to be the same thing as saying that men aren't attractive.
I used to be really hostile to compliments too. The things men complimented me on were things I hadn't earned, per se, and, probably, the men who were complimenting me seemed to want me to respond in a certain way. I wanted compliments on my strong arches and freakishly overdeveloped quadraceps, dammit!
And then I grew up, entered loving relationships, and realized that at least half of the pleasure of complimenting someone is expressing my OWN pleasure.
I agree with Timbot that guys objectify one another's bodies, but not to the extent that women do to women. I think the most chilling thing one can reliably witness using public transportation is the sight of a woman comprehensively analyzing another woman from head to toe.
I remember arguing on that thread that men should not have any trouble with attractiveness. I can remember Robust McM had a whole list of dos and don'ts. But casually commenting on a man's attractiveness seems hard for some people to do. My wife will report, sometimes with amusement, sometimes irritation, about how a woman will have told her about my fitness, whatever. Seldom tell me, though.
I think I didn't learn how to accept a compliment until I was in my mid-twenties. I was a rather awkward child/teenager/college student and my mother and sisters are very beautiful by common standards, so for a while I had to fight the impulse that a compliment wasn't meant sarcastically and someone might think I actually looked nice.
I don't know, LB. I find myself mentally criticizing other women all the time. Like, oh, she's pretty, but she has a weird ass, or something like that.
Also, I had a conversation recently about how women are often trying to find their "body double." Any takers? Sometimes, when I see a women that has vaguely the same shape/height as me, I think "do I look like that?" Sometimes I even ask that of whoever's with me. My freakishly tall friend has told me that she does the same thing. That could be part of what the appraisal is about.
And if it can be appropriated or not. ("Acid green prairie skirt; sounds terrible, but it actually looks okay, I think. Can I wear something like that, or will I look like a moron? And is it working because she's done something clever with the color of the top, or do I not have to worry about that?")
Or, of course, some variant of either pure appreciation: "Oooo, pretty!"; or esthetic condemnation: "Please, no more than two patterns in one outfit."
I'm doing some reflecting here about discomfort with being the object of a gaze (specifically, for me, a male gaze), and I think for me it might stem from going to a small college that had community showers -- simply in order to survive, I had to abide by, and believe others were abiding by, a mutual pact not to look to closely at each other.
Of course, there were some unambiguously straight guys who revelled in the nudity. I never got into that, probably out of my distrust of "male bonding." Like all these "men's" Bible studies that were all the rage periodically, or "guys only" poker nights or whatever -- why? Why can't girls play too? What do you have against women? Are you afraid of them?
(My girlfriend thinks that gay guys are constantly checking me out, but I've talked to other people who think that is hugely improbable.)
Um, if guys objectify each other by commenting on muscles and bodies and whatnot, it's not necessarily incorporating any positive feelings. Objectifying a person with lustful thoughts in mind and fully expressed, which are then consummated, might come across just a bit differently, Timbot.
I agree that 'figure is a pretty gendered term. The only people who ever said anything like that to me were older women who were trying to get me to realize that I'm pretty attractive or to understand what kinds of clothes would flatter me. I have always taken it to be a polite way of saying, "You have nice breasts and a slender waist." (FWIW, I wish that my breasts were a bit smaller--a nice full C cup, rather than a DD. I feel that I'm too top heavy and don't like that it's harder to buy clothes; being short doesn't help either. Giys seem to like burying their heads in them which sometimes makes me feel weirdly maternal.)
Also, I had a conversation recently about how women are often trying to find their "body double." Any takers?
This, I do. I have the usual nutso weight issues -- I'm quite a bit heavier than I was before I had kids, but still not terribly overweight. I certainly do the "Do I look like her? Because that would be all right -- a little voluptously overripe, but all right. Or her? In which case I need to live on rice cakes for the rest of my life." And then I forget about it -- I've never had the attention span required to actually diet.
I've done the "find your body double" thing before, but usually when I wasn't feeling particularly good in my own skin. My eyes have often been wildly off in estimating my own proportions, which isn't exactly comforting. I'm currently not doing it at all--let's hope I've grown out of my body-issues, but we'll see--which has made me much more receptive to seeing beauty in all kinds of other women's figures.
Objectifying a person with lustful thoughts in mind and fully expressed, which are then consummated, might come across just a bit differently, Timbot.
But that's not what Teo was talking about, I don't think. I mean, if the question really is, "Why don't straight guys have sexual thoughts about other guys' bodies?," well, I admit, I have no idea how to even approach an answer to that.
Well, the female body is a... work of art. The male body is utilitarian, it's for gettin' around, like a jeep.
...
It's hideous. The hair, the....the lumpiness. It's simian.
SCMT, I think men objectify other men's bodies usually only when they're in some way remarkable, like athletes, or models, or something. Do you think that if there was a group of friends x, y, and z, that x and y would be like "dude, Z, your legs are totally buff." 'Cause I've had female friends say that exact thing to me.
I have to say, spending a couple years in an hippy-ish vegetarian co-op does help with the "everybody is beautiful in their own way" ethic, naked men and women both. Some naked guys knew they were beautiful and had a very hard time keeping their clothes on.
74 - I think LB is projecting her objective, non-catty appraisal onto other riders.
I've not done the body-double thing, but friends of mine do and have reported that their husbands/sig others will laugh if they point out a girl with a 'figure like mine' because it will invariably be someone much larger.
I tend to focus on just leg comparisons. Her skirt is like mine. Her legs look very nice. But her legs are much more delicate than mine. I must look like a cow in this skirt. A cow with saddlebags. Wahhhh.. I have concluded that every woman in the world has better legs than I. Statistically, this is unlikely to be true.
I have very little sense of what I actually look like, and never really have.
This is exactly right, and I think that's where the body double thing comes from. Whenever I see a full-body picture that someone else snapped of me, I am like "jesus fucking christ, is that what I look like?" And it's always been that way.
I understand exactly what Teofilo is talking about. Maybe he and I are from a younger generation or something.
I've always felt like the average woman is taught that her body has the potential for beauty (with the corrolary that she's to be shamed if she doesn't live up to the potential). Whereas the average man is taught that his body is inherently not aesthetically pleasing, so why bother.
Comment #56 makes no sense to me. I don't think I've ever heard a straight man talk about the good or bad aspects of another man's body.
Do you think that if there was a group of friends x, y, and z, that x and y would be like "dude, Z, your legs are totally buff."
Maybe, as Ned says, it's a generational issue. I've certainly said thing like, "Dude, what happened--you've got some pipes." I wouldn't be surprised if women were more attuned to body matters, though.
64: Actually 7 was an oblique reference to that Shamu article, and "least reinforcing syndrome", i.e. showing no reaction to behavior we want to stop. It was also just a joke.
I don't know, LB. I find myself mentally criticizing other women all the time. Like, oh, she's pretty, but she has a weird ass, or something like that.
When people ask me why I tell them not to date Middle-Eastern women, I say, "Because they look at you." What I love about life is that all the ethnic stereotypes I believe in turn out to be true.
As for objectifying males bodies, well, there was this, and this probably counts, and some people would include this. I have a feeling that there have been others.
But back to the 'men are hideous lumpy hairy creatures' thing; am I wrong, or does this go into the 'Patriarchy hurts everyone' file?
The picture I'm building up is:
(1) Women are beautiful and sexual (because straight men control societal discourse, and straight men are attracted to straight women); so beauty and sexuality are inherently feminine.
(2) Anything feminine is absolutely inappropriate for men; masculinity depends on a perfect avoidance of the feminine.
(3) So men are inherently ugly and non-sexual; if they aren't, there's something wrong with them ("pretty-boy").
Where this goes bad is step 2 -- being a man is defined by not being a woman -- and this is a common feature of a lot of things that suck about living in a sexist society.
I've sat around and discussed with friends the asses of various men and women who've walked by, although we usually appreciated various kinds of asses, stressed the positive, and expressed our negatives as, mmm, doesn't work for me. I look at women on the subway. Usually because I find them interesting. I kind of resent "chilling." You don't know the precise tenor of what's going on in someone's thoughts. Ever since Joe Drymala told me people in show biz would say Katharine McPhee has tank ass, I've wondered if I did too. And here I kind of prided myself on my big butt, but tis true, it does not point out as much as it might.
There does seem to be more 'aesthetic' objectification of the male body around these days than there once was. David Beckham, etc.
However, 9 times out of 10 the hot guy with a bare torso will be damn near completely hairless. Those guys, athleticism aside, often don't look much like ordinary guys.
However, 9 times out of 10 the hot guy with a bare torso will be damn near completely hairless. Those guys, athleticism aside, often don't look much like ordinary guys.
That's why there's waxing, laser, and electrolysis.
I really want to jump in on this, but I'll probably refrain from any more comments until I get home from work.
102: Well, ogged is telling men that they don't want to date Middle-Eastern women because those women look at you, so implicit in that argument is that those men he is talking to don't want to be looked at.
I mentioned the quote in 83 in the other thread. LB said she remembered it but didn't seem to have anything to say about it. I had wondered what her reaction to it was, but I should have figured her distaste for Seinfeld would win out (as in 84).
Well, ogged is telling men that they don't want to date Middle-Eastern women because those women look at you, so implicit in that argument is that those men he is talking to don't want to be looked at.
Actually, what I object to isn't so much being "checked out" as being "sized up." Uh, yeah. Seriously, there's a difference in the two ways of looking, and you Middle-Eastern (and Indian) women, you're size uppers.
Yes, this kind of thing, a little. Maybe not limited to straight men, either. Gore Vidal, in his memoir:
Incidentally, I am mesmerized by the tributes to my beauty that keep cropping up in the memoirs of the period. At the time, nobody reliable thought to tell me.
The Seinfeld episode from which the quotation comes? Not that well, but a little bit. I think it's the one in which Jerry's girlfriend is naked all of the time.
My point isn't 'how can I look more like those guys?' but more 'why the hell do these guys all look like heavily muscled 12 year olds?'
Muscle definition is more apparent on a hairless body, so someone professionally showing off their body is going to depilate. Bodybuilders have always been hairless, haven't they? And the current iconic 'attractive half-naked man' has gym muscles, so they're coming out of a body-building tradition. But I'm making things up here -- I really don't know.
Guys seem to like burying their heads in them which sometimes makes me feel weirdly maternal
This, I actually kind of like. Not "like" in a sexual sense but there is something about breasts that guys find very comforting and I find that strange power kind of cool. I'm not saying I want a guy I'm dating to project his mommy issues onto me or whatever, but I definitely feel as a woman that I have an ability to provide comfort with my body that I don't feel guys have. Maybe I'm just buying into the woman-as-nurturer, man-as-protector paradigms of the patriarchy, but that's how I feel. It's almost an instinct - when someone is sick or hurting, I just want to put my arms around them and hold them close to my chest.
97: I don't find the woman-woman gaze troubling because the apparent thought process seems to always be derogatory (though when it is, and sometimes it obviously is, I have my doubts that "doesn't work for me" is what's cycling through a person's mind). It's just that it seems to be so thorough and mechanical and purposefully judgmental, and it's not something that men really do, and every so often I'll catch a glimpse of it and it bothers me.
I've sat around and discussed with friends the asses of various men and women who've walked by, although we usually appreciated various kinds of asses, stressed the positive, and expressed our negatives as, mmm, doesn't work for me.
Wait, there are different kinds of asses now? I count three:
1) Flat
2) Round
3) Neither
By the way, regardless of your opinion of the Seinfeld characters, the message of that episode was pretty unambiguously that the quote was right--as soon as Jerry took off his clothes, Naked Girl put hers back on.
115 - Dan Savage says that women are no longer the tastemakers for fashion and then broader culture, so gay men have taken up the slack. He points out that back when women were chosing who was attractive, it was large, hairy men like Tom Selleck. When gay men started dictating tastes, they all became hairless and slim and Orlando Bloom-like.
114, 124: I (from the quotation) was a OK line, but as I recall, the point of the episode was that Jerry didn't much enjoy seeing his girlfriend naked all of the time either. He gets naked to subject her to the same pain he's been feeling.
123: Fine. I just wanted to know because I also labor under the impression that I don't have the same hangups/cultural artifacts of weirdness as my fellow Egyptian women. So, nyah.
Well, she was kind of embracing my torso at the time. (I think "I like your torso" sounds hilarious.)
I had two (two!) people tell me in the past year that I have "a long torso" then quickly add that it wasn't an insult. But really, saying a person has a long torso is just another way of saying they have short legs.
I told a friend about it.
Friend: "That's, like, a dog show compliment."
Me: "You have excellent incisors!"
Friend: "Fabulous haunches!"
saying a person has a long torso is just another way of saying they have short legs
Nah, I have pretty normal length legs, but have a long back; the ex's legs are about an inch longer than mine, but she's about an inch shorter than I am. If you have good posture, a long back can look good.
All I know is that my ass doesn't seem to conform to contemporary good ass values, and yet the ass men I've dated seem to really like it. Not like it just because it's an ass, but like its individual assness. Think it was special and valuable and good in the constellation of asses. I was kind of depressed when asses came into style and all of a sudden there was a right kind of big ass to have, and it wasn't my big ass, because I think mine looks nice.
Obviously, I'm making this up, but there seems to be a difference between "take it vs. leave it" or "yummy, me likely vs. meh, not my thing" and "that's good vs. that's lame" and "nice! vs. fugly."
140: But that judgment comes (at least some bits of seconds) after the checking out or sizing up is completed, no? Does the judgment retrospectively color the nature of the checking/sizing?
133: No, I suppose you're right that it's out there. But I guess I don't think of it so much as, "Men have disgusting bodies," as "Men get to have much less disciplined bodies without much harm." So you get George dating (in the show) a series of women that would normally be well out of his league, except that we think it's halfway believable because, as Labs once noted, the overchicked guy doesn't seem like that bizarre a phenomenon. Or maybe it's that we expect men's behavior to be much more disgusting (when was the last time he showered, etc.), and that gets imputed to male bodies. Or maybe it's just the hairiness of the bodies--but that counts against LB's thesis, as significant body hair is a characteristic that distinguishes men from women.
I do think that men worry much less about their bodies, and that, as a consequence, most of the guys I know have slid much farther down the pole as they've aged than the women I know.
I dunno. I guess I've never thought of the male body as inherently disgusting. But I could be the outlier. For all I know, I'm gay, and just haven't come to terms with it.
I have to say that my ass has never been commented on, except when wearing a particular pair of corduroy pants. That's why I think that these ass categories might often be a factor of the clothing rather than what's behind the clothing.
I do think that men worry much less about their bodies, and that, as a consequence, most of the guys I know have slid much farther down the pole as they've aged than the women I know.
I've had the opposite experience: all the guys are freaking and working out, and the women seem to think, "I'm through with all that."
Seriously, though, Tim, your points are similar to what Cala was saying on the other thread. These probably are just different ways of looking at the same thing, and I don't know which is more common. I suppose my perspective may have more to do with my own neuroses than an objective view of the cultural terrain, but there do seem to be an awful lot of guys who (perhaps subconsciously) buy into this idea.
I've had the opposite experience: all the guys are freaking and working out, and the women seem to think, "I'm through with all that."
Your friends might be substantially more athletic than mine. I could see athletic men being more committed to athletics than athletic women (assuming people pair up around "athletic") for no other reason than that it is a primary way guys bond.
137: Ogged, I really don't see how this makes sense, since "long" and "short" are issues of proportion.
And seriously, fuck Montesquieu or whatever it is you eggheads are reading in the book discussion group; everyone here could really get into discussing this book, which deals with the female gaze, male beauty, etc. And there's a chapter on penis size!
I don't know, Graham seriously stresses out about his wrinkles. I have these photos of him that are so, so sexy (One of my friends saw them and squealed, "OMG your 40 year old boyfriend looks like George Clooney!"), but he's convinced he looks wrinkled and haggard in them.
I've pretty consistently been told that I have a nice ass -- from my grandmother to my girlfriend. Of course, I do squats just constantly.
When I was at Oxford, there was some kind of slang term akin to "scholar's ass," denoting what happens to the male ass when all he does is sit around reading Augustine all day long at the Bodleian -- or as we called it, "the Bod," a name more evocative of a gay dance club than an institution where you knew the book you wanted could be found, but you just couldn't figure out how to get the elves to bring it to you.
147--I think that depends a lot on milieu. The Mormon women I know have mostly--how do I put this?--let themselves go to hell post-marriage, as though their mentality is "I'm married, I got my man, I fulfilled my duty, and now I don't have to worry about any of that anymore."*
The East Coast bourgeoisie I'm meeting these days, rather the opposite. Maybe in the latter milieu there's an unstated anxiety that the man will abandon the woman for a younger, tauter model. If a Mormon man did that to a Mormon woman, he'd get pretty near ostracized by the entire community.
I'm not really sure what's better.
*This is something of an overgeneralization, of course. I think I'm seeing something of a trend for younger Mormon women with good educations to take healthy diet and exercise more seriously for their own benefit. It's been slow coming.
Partner: What does [company we're trying to get to hire us] need?
me: To be honest, [partner name], I don't know what they need. I've been working on this for days, and no one seems to be suing them.
Partner: I don't care. Find out.
Looks like this is what this life is like... wild goosechases.
150: I think you're right. The two ways one could have normal legs and a long torso are if one has either a short pointy head (so we've dealt with ogged, from whom I hope all this commenting means he's feeling better) or if one has an abnormal height, and I'm not sure would that mean (literal giants, but I don't think we're talking about those).
155. I know exactly what you're talking about. Tiny little shoulders hunched up around the ears, arms like a T-Rex, and a wide butt that sticks out as though the lower vertebrae got fused together in the peering-crouched-over position? Every time I see a professor whose body got stuck that way, I stand up a little straighter.
157: Can't we optimistically acknowledge there is at least a possibility of one or both partner(s) caring about how aesthetically pleasing they are because they know their partner will enjoy it?
I am on the short side of normal (friends describe me as 'little' but they're nuts), but I have been told I have a long torso ever since a friend noticed that sitting down, our heads were level, but standing, she was a good four inches taller.
Should someone be suing them? Start figuring out where their vulnerabilities are (products liability? antitrust? dicey behavior around big contracts?) and see if you can sell them analysis on those points. (But I'm stunned by the assignment. That's not summer associate work.)
Thanks, LB. That helps a little. My fellow summer associate just told me to find a similar company and see what weaknesses/suits that other company has, which I think is good advice.
And as to your second point, yeah. This is the same partner who had me work on the weekend. I guess he really likes my work, but it's a little stressful.
Can't we optimistically acknowledge there is at least a possibility of one or both partner(s) caring about how aesthetically pleasing they are because they know their partner will enjoy it?
159: of course I'm right. If I have a "long torso" the extra length of my torso is taking up length that my legs could have used. A longer-than-normal torso (proportional to height) implies shorter-than-normal legs.
A longer-than-normal torso (proportional to height) implies shorter-than-normal legs.
Look, this is just wrong. If we say that for height X, normal length legs are l and normal length torso is t, it's totally possible for someone who is X+e tall to be proportioned l+(t+e).
So let me get this straight. "Checking out" is basically appreciating someone's hotness, or deciding on ambivalence, whereas "sizing up" is assigning a positive or negative value to both their various body parts and their appearance as a whole.
If that's the case, I doth protest that I don't size up men, I size up women, but check out men. Not sure what that means.
167: Yes, and that person has short legs for their height. If height is evenly distributed between the two areas they'd have l+e/2 and t+e/2. With other distributions, more or less would go to their legs. But none means they have relatively short legs.
But normal length legs are only l for height X. For height X+e, normal length legs are l+d for some d<e. For example, take the length of my legs as l, normal for X=5'7". My cousin Chris's legs are also length l. Unfortunately, his height is X+10" -- the difference in our heights is all in his torso. While our legs are the same length, mine aren't short but his are distinctly so.
My god, this thread has doubled since i started reading. Fuck in, i'm throwing in my comment willy-nilly:
Regarding the not-complementing-men thing - I think I stopped getting compliments to my face about the time I began to look older than, say, 15. Now if I do get compliments, they're through a 3rd party. But, in a way, this makes sense to me.
As to not-knowing-what-you-look-like - this doesn't freak y'all out? When I realized this about myself, I found it unsetteling. So I, hrm, I suppose practiced mentally picturing myself, and eventually my mental image matched what I saw in photos/mirrors, and now I have an acurate idea of what I look like.
And that picture 'Smasher linked to sure was a funny-lookin' penis.
167: shouldn't both torso and legs be indexed to (proportional to height?) I am X height with a torso t and legs l. Roommate is X+e height with a torso t and legs l+e. I am long-torsoed or short-legged and she is leggy, since the proportion creates the overall appearance.
Ok ok, if "e" is more than an inch or two, you're going to have someone who is disproportioned. But there's some room for someone to be long-legged or long-backed without necessarily being short-the-other-thinged.
He's a freak, described in the family as a really tall dwarf. Actually, he's very attractive, until you look at where his ass is in relation to the ground, at which point he's a bit disturbing. And his legs may be slightly longer than mine -- it's possible that I exaggerated a bit.
Once, my college roommate told me I had one of the most beautiful torsos she had ever seen. Like a statue, etc. So what about my legs? I asked. She told me she preferred that part more slender. But they were kind of like a sturdy pedastal for my fabulous torso. I decided I'd take it. Who needs to be perfect?
A legless person can still have a long waist, which is probably what most people who refer to long torsos mean. (Cala's friend is clearly an exception.) I.e., there is an expected ratio of, let's say head/chest to chest/hips. A long-waisted person will have a higher than expected ratio there. Legs don't enter into it.
Check out /size up? No, I'll go go a good old fashioned ogle any day. Or every day.
There's a sense in which the women/beautiful men/ugly thing is just another way of saying 'who cares what women think anyway.' I can tell you that as a matter of objective truth, that many more women are attractive than men. How do I know? I'm attracted to women all the time, of great variety of appearance, and am never really attracted to men, although once in a while -- not every day -- I see a man of whom I think 'well, I could see how some women might find this guy attractive.' I think this is an utterly generic male view, especially for while hetero men who grew up (a) outside the big eastern cities and (b) before 1990 [ie, born before 1975]. The utterly generic male view is objective truth, because the opinions of anyone outside this mainstream do not count.
Unless and until someone else grabs the wheel. Or unless one happens to be one of those people who thinks their opinion ought to count although it doesn't, really -- can't you hear what the culture is telling you?
Bleh, and now I've arrived super-late to the party, but I'll throw my hat in with teofilo that, at least among us young-uns, guys just aren't seen as all that pretty. Sure there are the models and the actors who are praised, but I'd wager that the typical guy out there just doesn't recieve compliments on his appearance as often as his female equal does. When this came up with a couple girlfriends in the past, they always found it a bit odd at first that I really wanted to be objectified, to be checked out and wanted for my body. But hell, I lift weights for a reason, and it's not really because it makes beer easier to haul (health concerns really only justify cardio workouts anyway).
One thing that I've always wondered about is how much gay guys and straight women really differ in their tastes. Admittedly this is mostly a personal concern because guys seem to check me out far more than women do, and I can never quite figure out why.
I realize I'm not really responding to the substance of your comment, but
I lift weights for a reason, and it's not really because it makes beer easier to haul (health concerns really only justify cardio workouts anyway)
your parenthetical is just not true! Building muscle (within reason) is good for everyone. Increases your metabolism and general health. People are shocked when I tell them how much I weigh, because I have a good deal of muscle, and I found out the other day that my friend who weighs less than me wears two sizes larger. Muscle is awesome.
Muscle pwns. It is why I am not little. One cannot be little and weigh what I weigh.
But it's so much better for health than just cardio, plus, cardio bores me to death and with weights, there's a very satisfying incremental goal-reaching.
186-- I'm not sure I can answer that, Charley; the attitude seems so indissociable from the social context. Yeah, I'd prefer being with someone who liked being attractive, but I'd rather not have it be out of some anxiety that the marriage was always instantly on the line.
Yup. I'm still out there on the quest for chin-ups. When I get there, expect really inappropriate bragging. (Maddeningly, I can now chin what I weighed in college. Sadly, that's quite a distance from chinning what I weigh now.)
Building muscle (within reason) is good for everyone.
Well... true. But I tend to think you would get most of the muscle you need for increased metabolism and better health just from doing higher-intensity running and rowing. Actually, I don't really even do much leg lifting just because those two activities do so much already.
My boy is nearly 30 (but if he asks, I didn't acknowledge that), and I compliment him on his fine legs and he doesn't seem to be taken aback. I'm not so sure this is an age thing.
Oh, and 21 here. It's not really that I'm taken aback by compliments, I just find them to be pretty unusual. Women also don't do the lecherous stare often enough.
Man, such an interesting thread and I was so totally swamped at work today that I haven't had a chance to comment at all. This will probably take many comments.
husbands/sig others will laugh if they point out a girl with a 'figure like mine' because it will invariably be someone much larger.
I can't find it now, but I once read a study where women estimated their shapes by drawing them on life-size pieces of paper. Interestingly, the white women almost uniformly overestimated their size, while the black women (who in this sample tended to be larger than the white women) were almost all right on target.
The more interesting result was that, right down the line, the black women were much happier with their bodies than the white women.
I am 30 pounds away from being able to do a chinup. I'd race ya, LB, but I have been told by my doctor not to resume lifting until we get the weird shoulder spasms figured out. This totally sucks.
The more interesting result was that, right down the line, the black women were much happier with their bodies than the white women.
Makes sense -- black women are largely excluded from the media 'desirable woman' image. Which is racist, but does mean less pressure to comply with it insofar as it's unrealistic.
I have never in my life been able to do a chin-up. If I couldn't do it when I was eight and had no fat, and if I couldn't do it when I was a muscle-bound teenager (who rowed whaleboats and climbed ropes), I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to do a chin-up.
Sure there are the models and the actors who are praised, but I'd wager that the typical guy out there just doesn't recieve compliments on his appearance as often as his female equal does.
Thinking, now, that based on Smasher's Frappr picture, this could all change if the young'uns could be convinced to bathe and shave more often.
How young is young? teo's 21. I'm 27. I think yinz just need girls that compliment you more.
"that compliment you more" s/b ""
This man speaks the truth.
Okay, not really, because I can't look at guys on the train without them noticing. I've tried, and it doesn't work.
But noticing is all the fun! If someone cute checks me out, male or female, it makes my day. Provided they're good at it, of course. Quick up-and-down and a nice smile.
I suspect I have more close gay male friends than close straight male ones. They're just more fun, as a rule. Also, I've had men make passes at me (this is a response to an issue on B's threads, I think), and it's entirely more flattering than having a woman make a pass at you because the male beauty standard in gay culture is so entirely higher than in straight culture. I tend to be flirtier with gay men than with straight women, because you the response you get is much more predictable and satisfying.
Climbing ropes is not more difficult than chin-ups. When I was, like 12, I could climb ropes but not do chin-ups. In fact, I've never been able to do a chin-up. Not even when I was 8.
Girls use their legs to climb ropes, SCMTim. The girl with good overall strength and excellent technique can usually climb a LOT faster than the unpracticed guy who relies on the brute strength of his arms.
If you want to do pullups, find an assisted pullup machine. They allow you to counterweight so you only pull up what you can, and as you get stronger, you reduce the counterweight. I started with a very wimpy 65 lb counterweight and worked it down to 30lbs over about two and a half months.
I am shocked, shocked I tell you by Silvana's anti-checking out on the subway stance. I do it, and unless I'm misreading things all the time (I'm sure I am some of the time), I've been checked out as well. This does not lead to me hitting on strangers, but very few things do, so that shouldn't be surprising.
Not really, JAC, because then they try to hit on you or something. I don't really want to be hit on, I just want to look.
Fair enough, and I know I'd do this, too. That's why good gay bars are so great for cute guys who won't hit on you when you ogle them.
I was once almost able to get all the way to the top of a rope in gym (it killed me when they told me how close I was), but I've never been anywhere near a chinup.
Howcome all the guys aren't chiming in with how many chin-ups they do? And I can never remember which is which: chin-ups are with hands facing away (harder, the way that really counts) and pull-ups are with the hands facing the body, right?
If I recall correctly, Tia, it should have been the sides and bottoms of your feet that got the rope burn.
I sure didn't do this in gym class, btw. I was a Sea Scout (a division of BSA, so I used to tell everyone I was a Boy Scout) and used to do it competitively. My record was getting up the fifteen foot rope (or twenty?) in eight seconds (that part I remember exactly!). We were in an all girls crew competing against co-ed and all-boys crews, and it was very important to us to kick fucking ass.
Part of the problem is with the assisted pullup machine at my gym. It's configured for a very wide grip, too wide for me to reverse my hands. (Arms are out at ninety degrees to the side.) I think the configuration can flip so the handholds are on the inside, but I'm too short to change them.
I got (only a few) compliments on my legs in high school but, and I could be wrong here, they seemed to involve an unstated comparison to my general skinny thin look. Except when exercising or hiking, I almost always wore pants; I only heard compliments if I was wearing shorts (and not really more than a couple of times, either).
On the other hand, in junior high the PE teachers were always on my case about my upper body strength not matching my lower body strength despite the fact that I swum regularly. There were good reasons why butterfly was my worst and breastroke my best strokes.
So I open up the page in the morning, I see 232 comments on a sex thread, figure I won't have time to catch up, check it out of curiosity, and it opens to a bunch of comments about exercising. You people are sick.
Back when I was swimming, before I was trying to lose muscle and gain fat for stomach surgery, I could do 8 pull-ups, I think. Of course, that was always post-swimming, so rested I probably could have done, oh, 50?
228: At this point, I want to get up to the bar under my own power. Once I can do that, I'll worry about doing it with style. (And it's not like your lats don't work at all for a chin-up -- my biceps alone are about capable of lifting a sandwich. But every little bit helps.)
Okay, when I was eight I could get my forehead to the bar. About half the time.
And Tia, I think you might indeed have been doing it wrong and nobody told you. I'd show you how to do it, but I seem to have left all of my hawse-lines back in California. Basically, you should be able to stand on the rope while you prepare your next inchworm assault. That does involve a loop going over one of your feet, but it works best if you go up orangatang-like, using the sides of your feet. (Also: showing up the patriarchy, personified by fat ex-Navy event judges, really is the best motivation for learning how to climb ropes fast.)
And now I'm wondering if that was hideously insensitive of me to say. Um, I'm assuming that this is all right to talk about now that it's almost certainly not going to happen.
The funny thing is that I could do some pull-ups or chinups or whatever back when I did swimming, but the PE teachers were looking at everything according to some percentile system and my arm-strength percentiles were distinctly lower than those for other exercises.
Nowadays I don't think I could do any, but supposedly this is the summer I return to excercising regularly. I'll probably just start running again - I've tried weights and found them intensively boring - but I almost think I should look into boxing or something. I want to be prepared for the McManusapocalypse.
Who's up for some interejaculate sperm selection?
Posted by not step**n a. m**gs | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 12:27 PM
Well, this thread isn't taking off so much.
Hmmm, what to do? Don't want LB to
realizethink we don't love her . . .Um, there's a new Modern Love column up.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:35 PM
Amy Sutherland fantasizes about sex with killer whales.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:37 PM
Except oddly she thinks they are dolphins.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:39 PM
Man, I was too embarrassed to post about that. I do that to people (that is, consciously working on positive reinforcement, and non-reinforcement rather than punishment for stuff I don't like) and I started thinking about it from dog training books. But people get so weird about it when I start explaining stuff in terms of dog-training.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:39 PM
I've been commenting on one of the threads LB links in the post.
I'm arguing that men are taught that their bodies are inherently disgusting. Any thoughts? Not many male Mineshafters seem to have made it over there and I'd be interested to hear their impressions.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:40 PM
*gives teo a blank stare*
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:41 PM
Yeah, I'd really like to hear more about that -- I've been poking you to get you (and anyone else with thoughts) to talk more about it.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:42 PM
I've got many problems, but not that one. I'm proud, even vain of my body, although I have the distinct sense I'm not supposed to think so, and men and women both often disparage the very idea of such self-satisfaction, often without knowing that's how I feel about myself.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:43 PM
Which of the threads are you commenting on, Teo? [snicker]
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:44 PM
Teo, you mean like the "boys are hairy and smelly and belch and fart too much" kind of thing?
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:45 PM
Comment seems to have slowed to a crawl over there anyway, so here's some more of my argument:
There's a cultural trope that while women's bodies are works of art worthy of aesthetic appreciation, men's bodies are lumpy, hairy, ugly, utilitarian objects not deserving such appreciation. Men are, of course, highly valued for other things, but the assumption is that no one is actually attracted to a male body as a body.
This is bullshit, of course, but it's quite widespread in our culture. At least I thought so, but many of the commenters at Bitch's place were very surprised when it was brought up in the men-only thread.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:47 PM
11: Pretty much.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:48 PM
Wham changed all that.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:48 PM
Huh. 'Snips and snails and puppy dog's tails'?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:49 PM
Hey, Teo, I commented over there in response to that. I think men don't get sufficiently and appreciatively objectified, to put it crassly. Or, to put it how I put it in my sex life: "Hold still, I'm objectifying you."
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:50 PM
I saw your comment, JM, and I thought it was great. I can totally identify with the "you like that?" response.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:51 PM
Actually, I'm serious. Not about Wham specifically. But (as I believe I have mentioned here before) the gay aesthetic started to influence women's way of looking at male bodies. Advertising started to contain much more homoerotic imagery, &c. That really has changed a lot since the 70s.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:52 PM
Changed for women, though. Not for (straight) men.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:53 PM
In re: men's bodies, I've noticed that many men in my general age group tend to be off-put by being the object of the gaze. I'm someone for whom looking at the other person's body, carefully and pointedly, is a huge part of sex, and men are freaked out by this. They're like: I don't understand why you want to look at my hairy, lumpy, weird body. Or whatever.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:53 PM
Once, during a make-out session, a girl said to me, "I like your figure." It seemed really odd, perhaps for precisely the reasons teo and JM are singling out.
Then again, it might simply be a weird thing to say to anyone.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:53 PM
See, people here know what I'm talking about. The women over there were totally mystified. Some of the men, too.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:55 PM
There's a cultural trope that while women's bodies are works of art worthy of aesthetic appreciation
I see exactly the opposite thing going on. Particularly in sports.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:55 PM
Teo, we've got a good thing going with this double standard. Why are you trying to muck it all up?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:55 PM
Well, 'figure' is a pretty gendered word these days.
This is interesting -- I don't know how much explicit appreciating/complimenting I do. I think it, but I'm not sure if I say it. I'll have to ask Buck.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:56 PM
23: Sorry. I'm disagreeing with the mated comment on men's bodies.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:56 PM
The "you like that" response is one I often get, when I pay attention to or look at some particular body part.
Also, a dude recently asked me "can men have nice legs? Do you ever think 'man, that dude has some hot legs'?" I was like "are you fucking kidding me?! YES."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:57 PM
27: Here, let me explain the World Cup to you.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:57 PM
I think Michaelangelo did a pretty good job of objectifying male beauty.
But yeah, I know what you mean, teo. The whole "men are naturally slobs" thing, which explains why the concept of "metrosexuals" was seen as so unusual.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:57 PM
I'm not talking about the media. I think a lot of people on the other thread got confused about that. I'm talking about lower-level cultural stuff.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:58 PM
Then again (I don't know if I should say this, 'cause it's kind of evil), something that's often appealing about straight men is the fact that they are frequently so clueless about their own attractiveness. I've been seeing this guy for a couple weeks, and he asked me the other day what I thought of him after our first date, and I told him that I was taken aback by how attractive he is, and he was like "dude, what the fuck are you talking about." Totally had no idea, still didn't really believe it, I think.
So.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 2:59 PM
It's not so much that men are slobs as that the male body is inherently unattractive: penises look funny, all that hair, etc.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:00 PM
I don't know why 31 is evil; it really rings true for me.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:01 PM
But penises don't really look that funny; that's the thing. They look funnier because girls are raised with Ken Dolls. And some hair is nice.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:01 PM
I haven't caught up on the thread over at B's since last night (being pretty NSFW) but did anyone see the movie P.S.? It's pretty uneven but there is a scene in there where a young man (played by Topher Grace) is subjected to a pretty intense "hold still, I'm objectifying you" situation. There was some other power-trip stuff going on but it was kind of interesting from the perspective of a man being the subject of that kind of sexual scrutiny.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:02 PM
34: Right, exactly. But we're trained to think they do, maybe because of the Ken Dolls, I don't know.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:03 PM
33: Well, it's evil to say that there's some benefit to the "men's bodies are ugly" meme in that guys not being aware of their own attractiveness is appealing.
Because if it's something that is hurtful/damaging, I should renounce it, not say "hey, I like that."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:03 PM
Dude, on this very blog y'all have said shit about how men just flat-out aren't nearly as attractive as women.
Also, I ignored gay men because I hate them. Especially the whiny boy who wrote me to tell me how excluded he felt b/c I didn't put up a thread for gay men to talk about sex. Because, you know, they never get a chance to do that anywhere else.
Okay, I am off to have dinner with an attractive (and much younger!) man. Later, y'all.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:03 PM
I'm not sure how hurtful it really is; you probably shouldn't encourage it, but I don't see much harm in profiting from the effects. As long as you make sure to objectify him.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:05 PM
I really, really, really hate the oft-repeated notion that men are just inherently less attractive than women. It's one of the few things that I can reliably get all fired up about, even to people I have just met. I think it's damaging to both women and men, and is provided as a justification for the objectification of women, and furthermore, is just plain incorrect.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:05 PM
all that hair
Well, you can shave it...
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:06 PM
how men just flat-out aren't nearly as attractive as women.
Doesn't this come down to men not knowing how to, or not caring to, work it? Flattering clothes, skin care, posing -- it makes a huge difference, and most women do it and most men don't really.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:06 PM
Oh, I'm doing lots of objectification.
Speaking of which, there is something incredibly, incredibly hot about watching a man carefully get dressed in a suit in the morning. Like, too fucking hot for words.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:07 PM
40: That notion is exactly what I'm talking about.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:07 PM
"I like your figure" is a kinda weird compliment for either men or women. Somebody said it to me once--okay it was "j'aime ta taille" and it was some random dude in a club--and I had a hard time feeling complimented. Why? Because it's infuriatingly non-specific. It can be roughly translated as "your body turns me on." Not much of a compliment--not unwelcome from an intimate lover, of course, but not much of a compliment.
I like getting compliments from a lover--it's taken me awhile to get comfortable with compliments, but since I had a fair number of body-consciousness issues to get over, it really is quite a relief to hear and believe that he likes [body part X I've freaked out about since I was 13]. And since these little minute fetishizations actually feel good, when combined with other good relationship stuff of course, I've always assumed it felt good in the other direction as well. And, um, I have some confirmation of that.
Women just aren't the only ones who feel insecure and self-conscious. I think men have less practice and discourse available for expressing it, though.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:08 PM
the gay aesthetic started to influence women's way of looking at male bodies
That's just it, though--the stereotype shifted from "men don't have beauty" to "straight men don't have beauty, and gay men are the well-groomed ones". Whether women like how men look doesn't have a lot to do with what the expectations appear to be to men (just as most men really don't prefer women who are absurdly thin, but this doesn't stop women from comparing their figures to the models in ads.)
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:11 PM
Not much of a compliment--not unwelcome from an intimate lover, of course, but not much of a compliment.
Oh, true. It comes off as "You pass."
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:11 PM
Re: compliments on body parts, I've occasionally wondered what it would be like to have sex with someone who put a lot of attention/time into their body, like someone who worked out a lot or something. Because often when I pay a compliment like "I really like your arms" or something to a guy, they just seem kind of perplexed, as if because they don't work out, that their arms would be uninteresting.
Anyway, it's moot, as I tend to be mostly unattracted to ripped-ish guys.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:12 PM
40, I think I'm about to piss you off.
I know I've said, I think on my blog and maybe here, that I think there are much smaller standard deviations of male attractiveness than of female attractiveness. This sounds unfortunately like the stupid things Larry Summers said about women's math abilities, and if all he based it one were misread studies, all I'm basing it on is random observations.
Also, it could be explained in part by things like LB's 42 or female attractiveness being more noticable to me than male attractiveness. Except when I first said this a girl I was talking with agreed with me, and I'm therefore exempt from all criticism.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:13 PM
Perhaps the reaction of a guy who works out would be similar to the reaction of a woman who put a lot of effort into her appearance.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:13 PM
That's just it, though--the stereotype shifted from "men don't have beauty" to "straight men don't have beauty, and gay men are the well-groomed ones".
When did the 'Men are unbeautiful' thing get started, though? Early 20th C literature is riddled with beautiful male images; Lawrence, Housman, I'd come up with more but I'm basically illiterate. Is this a 50's American thing, or what?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:14 PM
it's infuriatingly non-specific
Well, she was kind of embracing my torso at the time. (I think "I like your torso" sounds hilarious.) But you're both right, I think. The weirdness comes both from the genderedness that LB points out and from the vagueness JM singles out.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:14 PM
I compliment my boyfriend's physique all the time, and it doesn't seem to throw him that I'm attracted to him physically.
Though, "I like your figure" is kind of weird b/c 'figure' is sort of gendered and it's such a vague compliment.
Indeed. Legs. What a reason to watch the World Cup.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:15 PM
50: I don't know. I think most women tend to put some effort into their appearance. I'm not sure how much qualifies as a lot. I guess it depends on what the compliment is. If someone told me "you have great hair" on a day that I thought it looked like crap, I would be like "what are you talking about?" But if someone made a general compliment about any part of my body (which for the most part doesn't change from day to day), I think my reaction would be "hey, thanks," even though I don't put, I think, that much effort into my appearance relative to other women.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:17 PM
I suspect it has something to do with homophobia (as someone suggested on the other thread). I doubt it's actually derivative of homophobia, but I think the two reinforce each other.
And yeah, probably pretty recent. Twentieth century, most likely.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:17 PM
When did the 'Men are unbeautiful' thing get started, though?
Never. Teo lives in some alternate universe, I think. Guys objectify other men--talk about other guys' bodies--all of the time.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:18 PM
54: Since the baseline of effort expended on appearance is so much higher for women, I suspect a man who works out would react similarly to you.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:19 PM
This blog has a nice kitty.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:19 PM
Guys objectify other men--talk about other guys' bodies--all of the time.
ATM.
Seriously, though, this is so not true in my experience, and it's not what I'm talking about anyway.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:20 PM
Painter Ellen Altfest is gaining a lot of attention in the press for a show she curated at I-20 in Chelsea that features paintings of men done by women. Here is her penis still life.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:21 PM
teo, the only sort of thing I've heard is: penises are funny-looking. I'll grant that there isn't a comparable statement about a woman that wouldn't be taken as an insult, rather than a joke. And I have heard the sort of 'women are beautiful goddesses, all curves and such'.
But that doesn't seem to be the same thing as saying that men aren't attractive.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:22 PM
Why is it a still life rather than a portrait?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:22 PM
I used to be really hostile to compliments too. The things men complimented me on were things I hadn't earned, per se, and, probably, the men who were complimenting me seemed to want me to respond in a certain way. I wanted compliments on my strong arches and freakishly overdeveloped quadraceps, dammit!
And then I grew up, entered loving relationships, and realized that at least half of the pleasure of complimenting someone is expressing my OWN pleasure.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:23 PM
Seriously, though, this is so not true in my experience, and it's not what I'm talking about anyway.
In which case the phenomenon might not be as widespread, and might be more idiosycratic, than you think. Which would explain, for example, #7.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:24 PM
I agree with Timbot that guys objectify one another's bodies, but not to the extent that women do to women. I think the most chilling thing one can reliably witness using public transportation is the sight of a woman comprehensively analyzing another woman from head to toe.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:24 PM
65: God, I do that all the fucking time. It really upsets me, but I can't seem to stop it.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:25 PM
Chilling? It's usually an attempt to figure out if a creative outfit works or doesn't.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:26 PM
62: Objectification.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:27 PM
63 was to 48 and 50. My mouse is acting up, and so I'm commenting about five steps behind everyone.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:27 PM
I remember arguing on that thread that men should not have any trouble with attractiveness. I can remember Robust McM had a whole list of dos and don'ts. But casually commenting on a man's attractiveness seems hard for some people to do. My wife will report, sometimes with amusement, sometimes irritation, about how a woman will have told her about my fitness, whatever. Seldom tell me, though.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:28 PM
I think I didn't learn how to accept a compliment until I was in my mid-twenties. I was a rather awkward child/teenager/college student and my mother and sisters are very beautiful by common standards, so for a while I had to fight the impulse that a compliment wasn't meant sarcastically and someone might think I actually looked nice.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:28 PM
I don't know, LB. I find myself mentally criticizing other women all the time. Like, oh, she's pretty, but she has a weird ass, or something like that.
Also, I had a conversation recently about how women are often trying to find their "body double." Any takers? Sometimes, when I see a women that has vaguely the same shape/height as me, I think "do I look like that?" Sometimes I even ask that of whoever's with me. My freakishly tall friend has told me that she does the same thing. That could be part of what the appraisal is about.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:28 PM
Chilling? It's usually an attempt to figure out if a creative outfit works or doesn't.
That's one of the kindest descriptions of it that I've seen.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:29 PM
And if it can be appropriated or not. ("Acid green prairie skirt; sounds terrible, but it actually looks okay, I think. Can I wear something like that, or will I look like a moron? And is it working because she's done something clever with the color of the top, or do I not have to worry about that?")
Or, of course, some variant of either pure appreciation: "Oooo, pretty!"; or esthetic condemnation: "Please, no more than two patterns in one outfit."
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:29 PM
I'm doing some reflecting here about discomfort with being the object of a gaze (specifically, for me, a male gaze), and I think for me it might stem from going to a small college that had community showers -- simply in order to survive, I had to abide by, and believe others were abiding by, a mutual pact not to look to closely at each other.
Of course, there were some unambiguously straight guys who revelled in the nudity. I never got into that, probably out of my distrust of "male bonding." Like all these "men's" Bible studies that were all the rage periodically, or "guys only" poker nights or whatever -- why? Why can't girls play too? What do you have against women? Are you afraid of them?
(My girlfriend thinks that gay guys are constantly checking me out, but I've talked to other people who think that is hugely improbable.)
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:31 PM
Um, if guys objectify each other by commenting on muscles and bodies and whatnot, it's not necessarily incorporating any positive feelings. Objectifying a person with lustful thoughts in mind and fully expressed, which are then consummated, might come across just a bit differently, Timbot.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:31 PM
I agree that 'figure is a pretty gendered term. The only people who ever said anything like that to me were older women who were trying to get me to realize that I'm pretty attractive or to understand what kinds of clothes would flatter me. I have always taken it to be a polite way of saying, "You have nice breasts and a slender waist." (FWIW, I wish that my breasts were a bit smaller--a nice full C cup, rather than a DD. I feel that I'm too top heavy and don't like that it's harder to buy clothes; being short doesn't help either. Giys seem to like burying their heads in them which sometimes makes me feel weirdly maternal.)
Posted by Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:31 PM
Also, I had a conversation recently about how women are often trying to find their "body double." Any takers?
This, I do. I have the usual nutso weight issues -- I'm quite a bit heavier than I was before I had kids, but still not terribly overweight. I certainly do the "Do I look like her? Because that would be all right -- a little voluptously overripe, but all right. Or her? In which case I need to live on rice cakes for the rest of my life." And then I forget about it -- I've never had the attention span required to actually diet.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:32 PM
Hear, hear, BG. We should go shopping.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:33 PM
Yeah, people think having large breasts is great, but it's a fucking pain in the ass.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:35 PM
I've done the "find your body double" thing before, but usually when I wasn't feeling particularly good in my own skin. My eyes have often been wildly off in estimating my own proportions, which isn't exactly comforting. I'm currently not doing it at all--let's hope I've grown out of my body-issues, but we'll see--which has made me much more receptive to seeing beauty in all kinds of other women's figures.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:36 PM
Objectifying a person with lustful thoughts in mind and fully expressed, which are then consummated, might come across just a bit differently, Timbot.
But that's not what Teo was talking about, I don't think. I mean, if the question really is, "Why don't straight guys have sexual thoughts about other guys' bodies?," well, I admit, I have no idea how to even approach an answer to that.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:36 PM
Well, the female body is a... work of art. The male body is utilitarian, it's for gettin' around, like a jeep.
...
It's hideous. The hair, the....the lumpiness. It's simian.
Posted by Elaine Benes | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:37 PM
But of course, all the Seinfeld characters were presented as terrible, terrible people.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:38 PM
SCMT, I think men objectify other men's bodies usually only when they're in some way remarkable, like athletes, or models, or something. Do you think that if there was a group of friends x, y, and z, that x and y would be like "dude, Z, your legs are totally buff." 'Cause I've had female friends say that exact thing to me.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:39 PM
I have to say, spending a couple years in an hippy-ish vegetarian co-op does help with the "everybody is beautiful in their own way" ethic, naked men and women both. Some naked guys knew they were beautiful and had a very hard time keeping their clothes on.
74 - I think LB is projecting her objective, non-catty appraisal onto other riders.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:39 PM
My eyes have often been wildly off in estimating my own proportions, which isn't exactly comforting.
This, certainly, for me. I have very little sense of what I actually look like, and never really have.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:40 PM
I've not done the body-double thing, but friends of mine do and have reported that their husbands/sig others will laugh if they point out a girl with a 'figure like mine' because it will invariably be someone much larger.
I tend to focus on just leg comparisons. Her skirt is like mine. Her legs look very nice. But her legs are much more delicate than mine. I must look like a cow in this skirt. A cow with saddlebags. Wahhhh.. I have concluded that every woman in the world has better legs than I. Statistically, this is unlikely to be true.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:40 PM
I was just responding by example to 7 and its ilk, noting that it's a concept in circulation.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:41 PM
I have very little sense of what I actually look like, and never really have.
This is exactly right, and I think that's where the body double thing comes from. Whenever I see a full-body picture that someone else snapped of me, I am like "jesus fucking christ, is that what I look like?" And it's always been that way.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:42 PM
I understand exactly what Teofilo is talking about. Maybe he and I are from a younger generation or something.
I've always felt like the average woman is taught that her body has the potential for beauty (with the corrolary that she's to be shamed if she doesn't live up to the potential). Whereas the average man is taught that his body is inherently not aesthetically pleasing, so why bother.
Comment #56 makes no sense to me. I don't think I've ever heard a straight man talk about the good or bad aspects of another man's body.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:46 PM
Exception to 91: Straight men do point out when other men are fatasses.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:49 PM
Do you think that if there was a group of friends x, y, and z, that x and y would be like "dude, Z, your legs are totally buff."
Maybe, as Ned says, it's a generational issue. I've certainly said thing like, "Dude, what happened--you've got some pipes." I wouldn't be surprised if women were more attuned to body matters, though.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:51 PM
64: Actually 7 was an oblique reference to that Shamu article, and "least reinforcing syndrome", i.e. showing no reaction to behavior we want to stop. It was also just a joke.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:52 PM
I don't know, LB. I find myself mentally criticizing other women all the time. Like, oh, she's pretty, but she has a weird ass, or something like that.
When people ask me why I tell them not to date Middle-Eastern women, I say, "Because they look at you." What I love about life is that all the ethnic stereotypes I believe in turn out to be true.
As for objectifying males bodies, well, there was this, and this probably counts, and some people would include this. I have a feeling that there have been others.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:53 PM
But back to the 'men are hideous lumpy hairy creatures' thing; am I wrong, or does this go into the 'Patriarchy hurts everyone' file?
The picture I'm building up is:
(1) Women are beautiful and sexual (because straight men control societal discourse, and straight men are attracted to straight women); so beauty and sexuality are inherently feminine.
(2) Anything feminine is absolutely inappropriate for men; masculinity depends on a perfect avoidance of the feminine.
(3) So men are inherently ugly and non-sexual; if they aren't, there's something wrong with them ("pretty-boy").
Where this goes bad is step 2 -- being a man is defined by not being a woman -- and this is a common feature of a lot of things that suck about living in a sexist society.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:54 PM
I've sat around and discussed with friends the asses of various men and women who've walked by, although we usually appreciated various kinds of asses, stressed the positive, and expressed our negatives as, mmm, doesn't work for me. I look at women on the subway. Usually because I find them interesting. I kind of resent "chilling." You don't know the precise tenor of what's going on in someone's thoughts. Ever since Joe Drymala told me people in show biz would say Katharine McPhee has tank ass, I've wondered if I did too. And here I kind of prided myself on my big butt, but tis true, it does not point out as much as it might.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:54 PM
Ok, 95 is freaking me out, because look at my 20.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:56 PM
But ogged, why don't men want to be looked at? That's the real question.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:56 PM
Well, 'figure' is a pretty gendered word these days
well of course; it means tits.
from the "Dictionary of English Euphemism"
Vivacious = big tits
Slim = small tits
Athletic = no tits at all
Bubbly = huge tits
Curvy = fat.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:57 PM
There does seem to be more 'aesthetic' objectification of the male body around these days than there once was. David Beckham, etc.
However, 9 times out of 10 the hot guy with a bare torso will be damn near completely hairless. Those guys, athleticism aside, often don't look much like ordinary guys.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:58 PM
Generalizing to 'men' from 'ogged' is a stretch, no? I mean, I adore him in a bloggy kind of way, but I wouldn't call him typical of much.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:58 PM
However, 9 times out of 10 the hot guy with a bare torso will be damn near completely hairless. Those guys, athleticism aside, often don't look much like ordinary guys.
That's why there's waxing, laser, and electrolysis.
I really want to jump in on this, but I'll probably refrain from any more comments until I get home from work.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 3:59 PM
102: Well, ogged is telling men that they don't want to date Middle-Eastern women because those women look at you, so implicit in that argument is that those men he is talking to don't want to be looked at.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:00 PM
re: 103
My point isn't 'how can I look more like those guys?' but more 'why the hell do these guys all look like heavily muscled 12 year olds?'...
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:01 PM
implicit in that argument is that those men he is talking to don't want to be looked at.
Or that ogged is very, very strange. I'm not saying the answer is obvious, but I am saying that the answer isn't obvious.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:02 PM
I mentioned the quote in 83 in the other thread. LB said she remembered it but didn't seem to have anything to say about it. I had wondered what her reaction to it was, but I should have figured her distaste for Seinfeld would win out (as in 84).
Do you remember it, Tim?
Also, 96 gets it exactly right.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:03 PM
Well, ogged is telling men that they don't want to date Middle-Eastern women because those women look at you, so implicit in that argument is that those men he is talking to don't want to be looked at.
Actually, what I object to isn't so much being "checked out" as being "sized up." Uh, yeah. Seriously, there's a difference in the two ways of looking, and you Middle-Eastern (and Indian) women, you're size uppers.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:03 PM
108: I'm not getting it. What's the difference between being checked out and sized up?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:05 PM
Seldom tell me, though.
Yes, this kind of thing, a little. Maybe not limited to straight men, either. Gore Vidal, in his memoir:
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:05 PM
"Sizer-uppers", or if you must, "upsizers".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:05 PM
Do you remember it, Tim?
The Seinfeld episode from which the quotation comes? Not that well, but a little bit. I think it's the one in which Jerry's girlfriend is naked all of the time.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:06 PM
What's the difference between being checked out and sized up?
If I tell you, youll become a regular white chick, and you don't want that.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:06 PM
How did you react to hearing the line?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:07 PM
My point isn't 'how can I look more like those guys?' but more 'why the hell do these guys all look like heavily muscled 12 year olds?'
Muscle definition is more apparent on a hairless body, so someone professionally showing off their body is going to depilate. Bodybuilders have always been hairless, haven't they? And the current iconic 'attractive half-naked man' has gym muscles, so they're coming out of a body-building tradition. But I'm making things up here -- I really don't know.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:07 PM
A lof the wording of the quote in 83 is in 12 in this thread, which you may well have copied from the other, I haven't looked.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:07 PM
Guys seem to like burying their heads in them which sometimes makes me feel weirdly maternal
This, I actually kind of like. Not "like" in a sexual sense but there is something about breasts that guys find very comforting and I find that strange power kind of cool. I'm not saying I want a guy I'm dating to project his mommy issues onto me or whatever, but I definitely feel as a woman that I have an ability to provide comfort with my body that I don't feel guys have. Maybe I'm just buying into the woman-as-nurturer, man-as-protector paradigms of the patriarchy, but that's how I feel. It's almost an instinct - when someone is sick or hurting, I just want to put my arms around them and hold them close to my chest.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:07 PM
Well, if you think it's so inherent in the Middle-Eastern woman psyche, I can't change my behavior anyway, right? So, quit bluffing.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:07 PM
Wow, five comments in the same minute.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:09 PM
116: That wording was based on my memory of the quote, but I didn't use it in the other thread.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:09 PM
97: I don't find the woman-woman gaze troubling because the apparent thought process seems to always be derogatory (though when it is, and sometimes it obviously is, I have my doubts that "doesn't work for me" is what's cycling through a person's mind). It's just that it seems to be so thorough and mechanical and purposefully judgmental, and it's not something that men really do, and every so often I'll catch a glimpse of it and it bothers me.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:10 PM
I've sat around and discussed with friends the asses of various men and women who've walked by, although we usually appreciated various kinds of asses, stressed the positive, and expressed our negatives as, mmm, doesn't work for me.
Wait, there are different kinds of asses now? I count three:
1) Flat
2) Round
3) Neither
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:10 PM
I can't change my behavior anyway, right? So, quit bluffing.
I dunno, I certainly don't have any of the hangups that any other Iranian guys do. Or, Iranian guys can't help but bluff. Take your pick.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:11 PM
By the way, regardless of your opinion of the Seinfeld characters, the message of that episode was pretty unambiguously that the quote was right--as soon as Jerry took off his clothes, Naked Girl put hers back on.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:12 PM
115 - Dan Savage says that women are no longer the tastemakers for fashion and then broader culture, so gay men have taken up the slack. He points out that back when women were chosing who was attractive, it was large, hairy men like Tom Selleck. When gay men started dictating tastes, they all became hairless and slim and Orlando Bloom-like.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:12 PM
4) Pert
5) Sagging
6) Smokin'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:12 PM
7) low-hanging
8) round because smushy
9) round because firm
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:13 PM
Some women's asses look like an upside-down heart. Others do not look like that at all.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:14 PM
7) Smart
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:14 PM
114, 124: I (from the quotation) was a OK line, but as I recall, the point of the episode was that Jerry didn't much enjoy seeing his girlfriend naked all of the time either. He gets naked to subject her to the same pain he's been feeling.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:15 PM
10) flat/saggy
11) round/saggy
12) tiny but soft!
Posted by jms | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:17 PM
123: Fine. I just wanted to know because I also labor under the impression that I don't have the same hangups/cultural artifacts of weirdness as my fellow Egyptian women. So, nyah.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:17 PM
You didn't recognize the sentiment at all? That's all I'm saying, is that it's out there, and pretty common (though, obviously, not universal).
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:17 PM
Well, she was kind of embracing my torso at the time. (I think "I like your torso" sounds hilarious.)
I had two (two!) people tell me in the past year that I have "a long torso" then quickly add that it wasn't an insult. But really, saying a person has a long torso is just another way of saying they have short legs.
I told a friend about it.
Friend: "That's, like, a dog show compliment."
Me: "You have excellent incisors!"
Friend: "Fabulous haunches!"
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:19 PM
Good lord, ogged. Now you've given me a whole 'nother set of worries. Vague, ominous worries.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:19 PM
ogged is here to fuck with us all.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:20 PM
saying a person has a long torso is just another way of saying they have short legs
Nah, I have pretty normal length legs, but have a long back; the ex's legs are about an inch longer than mine, but she's about an inch shorter than I am. If you have good posture, a long back can look good.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:22 PM
13) Muscular and sorta pointy
14) Muscular and sorta round
15) just the top of your legs.
All women who wish to have great asses should do squats. It may not give you a great ass, but it will improve the ass you have.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:22 PM
All I know is that my ass doesn't seem to conform to contemporary good ass values, and yet the ass men I've dated seem to really like it. Not like it just because it's an ass, but like its individual assness. Think it was special and valuable and good in the constellation of asses. I was kind of depressed when asses came into style and all of a sudden there was a right kind of big ass to have, and it wasn't my big ass, because I think mine looks nice.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:23 PM
"check out" vs. "size up"
Obviously, I'm making this up, but there seems to be a difference between "take it vs. leave it" or "yummy, me likely vs. meh, not my thing" and "that's good vs. that's lame" and "nice! vs. fugly."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:25 PM
But how can you tell which of these finely gradated ass categories is present when it is obscured by clothing?
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:25 PM
140: But that judgment comes (at least some bits of seconds) after the checking out or sizing up is completed, no? Does the judgment retrospectively color the nature of the checking/sizing?
Posted by jms | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:27 PM
133: No, I suppose you're right that it's out there. But I guess I don't think of it so much as, "Men have disgusting bodies," as "Men get to have much less disciplined bodies without much harm." So you get George dating (in the show) a series of women that would normally be well out of his league, except that we think it's halfway believable because, as Labs once noted, the overchicked guy doesn't seem like that bizarre a phenomenon. Or maybe it's that we expect men's behavior to be much more disgusting (when was the last time he showered, etc.), and that gets imputed to male bodies. Or maybe it's just the hairiness of the bodies--but that counts against LB's thesis, as significant body hair is a characteristic that distinguishes men from women.
I do think that men worry much less about their bodies, and that, as a consequence, most of the guys I know have slid much farther down the pole as they've aged than the women I know.
I dunno. I guess I've never thought of the male body as inherently disgusting. But I could be the outlier. For all I know, I'm gay, and just haven't come to terms with it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:27 PM
Ned, stop channeling Data.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:27 PM
I have to say that my ass has never been commented on, except when wearing a particular pair of corduroy pants. That's why I think that these ass categories might often be a factor of the clothing rather than what's behind the clothing.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:27 PM
Is that "Ask" I hear in the background?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:29 PM
I do think that men worry much less about their bodies, and that, as a consequence, most of the guys I know have slid much farther down the pole as they've aged than the women I know.
I've had the opposite experience: all the guys are freaking and working out, and the women seem to think, "I'm through with all that."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:29 PM
Seriously, though, Tim, your points are similar to what Cala was saying on the other thread. These probably are just different ways of looking at the same thing, and I don't know which is more common. I suppose my perspective may have more to do with my own neuroses than an objective view of the cultural terrain, but there do seem to be an awful lot of guys who (perhaps subconsciously) buy into this idea.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:32 PM
I've had the opposite experience: all the guys are freaking and working out, and the women seem to think, "I'm through with all that."
Your friends might be substantially more athletic than mine. I could see athletic men being more committed to athletics than athletic women (assuming people pair up around "athletic") for no other reason than that it is a primary way guys bond.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:33 PM
137: Ogged, I really don't see how this makes sense, since "long" and "short" are issues of proportion.
And seriously, fuck Montesquieu or whatever it is you eggheads are reading in the book discussion group; everyone here could really get into discussing this book, which deals with the female gaze, male beauty, etc. And there's a chapter on penis size!
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:35 PM
That sounds right, Tim.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:36 PM
That makes sense -- more of a fear of losing prowess as one ages than a fear of losing beauty.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:37 PM
I don't know, Graham seriously stresses out about his wrinkles. I have these photos of him that are so, so sexy (One of my friends saw them and squealed, "OMG your 40 year old boyfriend looks like George Clooney!"), but he's convinced he looks wrinkled and haggard in them.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:39 PM
"long" and "short" are issues of proportion
Yeah, but relative to your height, not to each other.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:40 PM
I've pretty consistently been told that I have a nice ass -- from my grandmother to my girlfriend. Of course, I do squats just constantly.
When I was at Oxford, there was some kind of slang term akin to "scholar's ass," denoting what happens to the male ass when all he does is sit around reading Augustine all day long at the Bodleian -- or as we called it, "the Bod," a name more evocative of a gay dance club than an institution where you knew the book you wanted could be found, but you just couldn't figure out how to get the elves to bring it to you.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:40 PM
He got a lot of attention from the laydeez when he was younger though, so maybe he's used to being viewed a certain way.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:40 PM
147--I think that depends a lot on milieu. The Mormon women I know have mostly--how do I put this?--let themselves go to hell post-marriage, as though their mentality is "I'm married, I got my man, I fulfilled my duty, and now I don't have to worry about any of that anymore."*
The East Coast bourgeoisie I'm meeting these days, rather the opposite. Maybe in the latter milieu there's an unstated anxiety that the man will abandon the woman for a younger, tauter model. If a Mormon man did that to a Mormon woman, he'd get pretty near ostracized by the entire community.
I'm not really sure what's better.
*This is something of an overgeneralization, of course. I think I'm seeing something of a trend for younger Mormon women with good educations to take healthy diet and exercise more seriously for their own benefit. It's been slow coming.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:41 PM
Agh. I'm going to be staying late at work.
Partner: What does [company we're trying to get to hire us] need?
me: To be honest, [partner name], I don't know what they need. I've been working on this for days, and no one seems to be suing them.
Partner: I don't care. Find out.
Looks like this is what this life is like... wild goosechases.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:42 PM
150: I think you're right. The two ways one could have normal legs and a long torso are if one has either a short pointy head (so we've dealt with ogged, from whom I hope all this commenting means he's feeling better) or if one has an abnormal height, and I'm not sure would that mean (literal giants, but I don't think we're talking about those).
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:42 PM
155. I know exactly what you're talking about. Tiny little shoulders hunched up around the ears, arms like a T-Rex, and a wide butt that sticks out as though the lower vertebrae got fused together in the peering-crouched-over position? Every time I see a professor whose body got stuck that way, I stand up a little straighter.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:46 PM
157: Can't we optimistically acknowledge there is at least a possibility of one or both partner(s) caring about how aesthetically pleasing they are because they know their partner will enjoy it?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:46 PM
I am on the short side of normal (friends describe me as 'little' but they're nuts), but I have been told I have a long torso ever since a friend noticed that sitting down, our heads were level, but standing, she was a good four inches taller.
It's just short legs, folks.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:47 PM
no one seems to be suing them.
Should someone be suing them? Start figuring out where their vulnerabilities are (products liability? antitrust? dicey behavior around big contracts?) and see if you can sell them analysis on those points. (But I'm stunned by the assignment. That's not summer associate work.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:47 PM
Thanks, LB. That helps a little. My fellow summer associate just told me to find a similar company and see what weaknesses/suits that other company has, which I think is good advice.
And as to your second point, yeah. This is the same partner who had me work on the weekend. I guess he really likes my work, but it's a little stressful.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:49 PM
Can't we optimistically acknowledge there is at least a possibility of one or both partner(s) caring about how aesthetically pleasing they are because they know their partner will enjoy it?
Ah, youth. I remember it well.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:49 PM
159: of course I'm right. If I have a "long torso" the extra length of my torso is taking up length that my legs could have used. A longer-than-normal torso (proportional to height) implies shorter-than-normal legs.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:50 PM
A longer-than-normal torso (proportional to height) implies shorter-than-normal legs.
Look, this is just wrong. If we say that for height X, normal length legs are l and normal length torso is t, it's totally possible for someone who is X+e tall to be proportioned l+(t+e).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:54 PM
So let me get this straight. "Checking out" is basically appreciating someone's hotness, or deciding on ambivalence, whereas "sizing up" is assigning a positive or negative value to both their various body parts and their appearance as a whole.
If that's the case, I doth protest that I don't size up men, I size up women, but check out men. Not sure what that means.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:55 PM
167: Yes, and that person has short legs for their height. If height is evenly distributed between the two areas they'd have l+e/2 and t+e/2. With other distributions, more or less would go to their legs. But none means they have relatively short legs.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:56 PM
But normal length legs are only l for height X. For height X+e, normal length legs are l+d for some d<e. For example, take the length of my legs as l, normal for X=5'7". My cousin Chris's legs are also length l. Unfortunately, his height is X+10" -- the difference in our heights is all in his torso. While our legs are the same length, mine aren't short but his are distinctly so.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:58 PM
My god, this thread has doubled since i started reading. Fuck in, i'm throwing in my comment willy-nilly:
Regarding the not-complementing-men thing - I think I stopped getting compliments to my face about the time I began to look older than, say, 15. Now if I do get compliments, they're through a 3rd party. But, in a way, this makes sense to me.
As to not-knowing-what-you-look-like - this doesn't freak y'all out? When I realized this about myself, I found it unsetteling. So I, hrm, I suppose practiced mentally picturing myself, and eventually my mental image matched what I saw in photos/mirrors, and now I have an acurate idea of what I look like.
And that picture 'Smasher linked to sure was a funny-lookin' penis.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:58 PM
167: shouldn't both torso and legs be indexed to (proportional to height?) I am X height with a torso t and legs l. Roommate is X+e height with a torso t and legs l+e. I am long-torsoed or short-legged and she is leggy, since the proportion creates the overall appearance.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 4:59 PM
170, 172: 167 is so pwned.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:02 PM
Ok ok, if "e" is more than an inch or two, you're going to have someone who is disproportioned. But there's some room for someone to be long-legged or long-backed without necessarily being short-the-other-thinged.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:02 PM
short-the-other-thinged.
Which brings us back to the topic of male insecurity.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:03 PM
173: I call bias on you (or I was really unclear in 169).
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:04 PM
but I am weinerpwned by LB. And w/d. Now I mourn.
What is also fun: being long-torsoed but short-waisted.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:05 PM
179: No, I was Weiner-pwned. But I did have a real-world example.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:06 PM
175: this comment is a thing of beauty.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:07 PM
I retract my call of bias. And your 6'5" cousin sounds really out of proportion.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:08 PM
He's a freak, described in the family as a really tall dwarf. Actually, he's very attractive, until you look at where his ass is in relation to the ground, at which point he's a bit disturbing. And his legs may be slightly longer than mine -- it's possible that I exaggerated a bit.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:11 PM
Once, my college roommate told me I had one of the most beautiful torsos she had ever seen. Like a statue, etc. So what about my legs? I asked. She told me she preferred that part more slender. But they were kind of like a sturdy pedastal for my fabulous torso. I decided I'd take it. Who needs to be perfect?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:11 PM
A legless person can still have a long waist, which is probably what most people who refer to long torsos mean. (Cala's friend is clearly an exception.) I.e., there is an expected ratio of, let's say head/chest to chest/hips. A long-waisted person will have a higher than expected ratio there. Legs don't enter into it.
And long waists are definitely attractive.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:12 PM
LB, you are quite tall, no?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:12 PM
Check out /size up? No, I'll go go a good old fashioned ogle any day. Or every day.
There's a sense in which the women/beautiful men/ugly thing is just another way of saying 'who cares what women think anyway.' I can tell you that as a matter of objective truth, that many more women are attractive than men. How do I know? I'm attracted to women all the time, of great variety of appearance, and am never really attracted to men, although once in a while -- not every day -- I see a man of whom I think 'well, I could see how some women might find this guy attractive.' I think this is an utterly generic male view, especially for while hetero men who grew up (a) outside the big eastern cities and (b) before 1990 [ie, born before 1975]. The utterly generic male view is objective truth, because the opinions of anyone outside this mainstream do not count.
Unless and until someone else grabs the wheel. Or unless one happens to be one of those people who thinks their opinion ought to count although it doesn't, really -- can't you hear what the culture is telling you?
Posted by CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:13 PM
157: Jack, to which sort would you rather be married, if male?
Posted by CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:13 PM
LB, you are quite tall, no
No. People perceive me as fairly tall, but I'm not quite 5'8". Good posture, I suppose.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:14 PM
Bleh, and now I've arrived super-late to the party, but I'll throw my hat in with teofilo that, at least among us young-uns, guys just aren't seen as all that pretty. Sure there are the models and the actors who are praised, but I'd wager that the typical guy out there just doesn't recieve compliments on his appearance as often as his female equal does. When this came up with a couple girlfriends in the past, they always found it a bit odd at first that I really wanted to be objectified, to be checked out and wanted for my body. But hell, I lift weights for a reason, and it's not really because it makes beer easier to haul (health concerns really only justify cardio workouts anyway).
One thing that I've always wondered about is how much gay guys and straight women really differ in their tastes. Admittedly this is mostly a personal concern because guys seem to check me out far more than women do, and I can never quite figure out why.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:14 PM
185: God, I love really good sarcasm.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:15 PM
I realize I'm not really responding to the substance of your comment, but
I lift weights for a reason, and it's not really because it makes beer easier to haul (health concerns really only justify cardio workouts anyway)
your parenthetical is just not true! Building muscle (within reason) is good for everyone. Increases your metabolism and general health. People are shocked when I tell them how much I weigh, because I have a good deal of muscle, and I found out the other day that my friend who weighs less than me wears two sizes larger. Muscle is awesome.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:17 PM
How young is young? teo's 21. I'm 27. I think yinz just need girls that compliment you more.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:18 PM
"that compliment you more" s/b ""
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:19 PM
My boys who have been taken aback by my compliments have all been in the 22-30 range.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:20 PM
Muscle pwns. It is why I am not little. One cannot be little and weigh what I weigh.
But it's so much better for health than just cardio, plus, cardio bores me to death and with weights, there's a very satisfying incremental goal-reaching.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:20 PM
186-- I'm not sure I can answer that, Charley; the attitude seems so indissociable from the social context. Yeah, I'd prefer being with someone who liked being attractive, but I'd rather not have it be out of some anxiety that the marriage was always instantly on the line.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:21 PM
Plus, on topic, you want good muscles for good sex. Killer quads = can be on top for a really long time without tiring.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:21 PM
Yup. I'm still out there on the quest for chin-ups. When I get there, expect really inappropriate bragging. (Maddeningly, I can now chin what I weighed in college. Sadly, that's quite a distance from chinning what I weigh now.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:22 PM
Building muscle (within reason) is good for everyone.
Well... true. But I tend to think you would get most of the muscle you need for increased metabolism and better health just from doing higher-intensity running and rowing. Actually, I don't really even do much leg lifting just because those two activities do so much already.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:22 PM
My boy is nearly 30 (but if he asks, I didn't acknowledge that), and I compliment him on his fine legs and he doesn't seem to be taken aback. I'm not so sure this is an age thing.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:22 PM
"indissociable from the social context" s/b "indissociable from the bullshit social milieux dichotomy I was setting up in that comment"
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:23 PM
Oh, and 21 here. It's not really that I'm taken aback by compliments, I just find them to be pretty unusual. Women also don't do the lecherous stare often enough.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:24 PM
Man, such an interesting thread and I was so totally swamped at work today that I haven't had a chance to comment at all. This will probably take many comments.
husbands/sig others will laugh if they point out a girl with a 'figure like mine' because it will invariably be someone much larger.
I can't find it now, but I once read a study where women estimated their shapes by drawing them on life-size pieces of paper. Interestingly, the white women almost uniformly overestimated their size, while the black women (who in this sample tended to be larger than the white women) were almost all right on target.
The more interesting result was that, right down the line, the black women were much happier with their bodies than the white women.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:24 PM
I am 30 pounds away from being able to do a chinup. I'd race ya, LB, but I have been told by my doctor not to resume lifting until we get the weird shoulder spasms figured out. This totally sucks.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:24 PM
I am going to go do some lecherous staring right now.
Okay, not really, because I can't look at guys on the train without them noticing. I've tried, and it doesn't work.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:25 PM
The more interesting result was that, right down the line, the black women were much happier with their bodies than the white women.
Makes sense -- black women are largely excluded from the media 'desirable woman' image. Which is racist, but does mean less pressure to comply with it insofar as it's unrealistic.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:26 PM
I have never in my life been able to do a chin-up. If I couldn't do it when I was eight and had no fat, and if I couldn't do it when I was a muscle-bound teenager (who rowed whaleboats and climbed ropes), I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to do a chin-up.
If you get there, LB, go ahead and brag.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:27 PM
I am 30 pounds away from being able to do a chinup.
20lbs here, if we're counting one painful rep.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:27 PM
Sure there are the models and the actors who are praised, but I'd wager that the typical guy out there just doesn't recieve compliments on his appearance as often as his female equal does.
Thinking, now, that based on Smasher's Frappr picture, this could all change if the young'uns could be convinced to bathe and shave more often.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:27 PM
Man, you guys are fucking buff. I am so far away. But most of my muscle is in my legs.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:28 PM
How young is young? teo's 21. I'm 27. I think yinz just need girls that compliment you more.
"that compliment you more" s/b ""
This man speaks the truth.
Okay, not really, because I can't look at guys on the train without them noticing. I've tried, and it doesn't work.
But noticing is all the fun! If someone cute checks me out, male or female, it makes my day. Provided they're good at it, of course. Quick up-and-down and a nice smile.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:29 PM
who rowed whaleboats and climbed ropes), I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to do a chin-up
Wierd. I think of climbing ropes, which I've never been able to do, as much more difficult than chin-ups.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:30 PM
Not really, JAC, because then they try to hit on you or something. I don't really want to be hit on, I just want to look.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:31 PM
Also, I ignored gay men because I hate them.
I suspect I have more close gay male friends than close straight male ones. They're just more fun, as a rule. Also, I've had men make passes at me (this is a response to an issue on B's threads, I think), and it's entirely more flattering than having a woman make a pass at you because the male beauty standard in gay culture is so entirely higher than in straight culture. I tend to be flirtier with gay men than with straight women, because you the response you get is much more predictable and satisfying.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:32 PM
Climbing ropes is not more difficult than chin-ups. When I was, like 12, I could climb ropes but not do chin-ups. In fact, I've never been able to do a chin-up. Not even when I was 8.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:33 PM
Girls use their legs to climb ropes, SCMTim. The girl with good overall strength and excellent technique can usually climb a LOT faster than the unpracticed guy who relies on the brute strength of his arms.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:33 PM
Me too, silvana, on the legs thing.
If you want to do pullups, find an assisted pullup machine. They allow you to counterweight so you only pull up what you can, and as you get stronger, you reduce the counterweight. I started with a very wimpy 65 lb counterweight and worked it down to 30lbs over about two and a half months.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:37 PM
I am shocked, shocked I tell you by Silvana's anti-checking out on the subway stance. I do it, and unless I'm misreading things all the time (I'm sure I am some of the time), I've been checked out as well. This does not lead to me hitting on strangers, but very few things do, so that shouldn't be surprising.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:37 PM
Not really, JAC, because then they try to hit on you or something. I don't really want to be hit on, I just want to look.
Fair enough, and I know I'd do this, too. That's why good gay bars are so great for cute guys who won't hit on you when you ogle them.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:38 PM
I was once almost able to get all the way to the top of a rope in gym (it killed me when they told me how close I was), but I've never been anywhere near a chinup.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:38 PM
Never seriously tried to climb a rope -- my gym classes didn't do that.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:40 PM
The tops of my feet used to bleed every day from rope burn. I can't believe I never made it all the way up. I sure tried.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:48 PM
Howcome all the guys aren't chiming in with how many chin-ups they do? And I can never remember which is which: chin-ups are with hands facing away (harder, the way that really counts) and pull-ups are with the hands facing the body, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:54 PM
Fuckin' gym.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:56 PM
222: You've got it backwards. Chinups are the easier kind, and pullups are the palms-away-from-your face harder kind.
I'm starting small, aiming for chinups.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:57 PM
222: Not sure. I do mine palms facing away.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:57 PM
If I recall correctly, Tia, it should have been the sides and bottoms of your feet that got the rope burn.
I sure didn't do this in gym class, btw. I was a Sea Scout (a division of BSA, so I used to tell everyone I was a Boy Scout) and used to do it competitively. My record was getting up the fifteen foot rope (or twenty?) in eight seconds (that part I remember exactly!). We were in an all girls crew competing against co-ed and all-boys crews, and it was very important to us to kick fucking ass.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 5:59 PM
Try the other way -- it's probably worth 10lbs or so. You engage your biceps more, not just your lats.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:00 PM
But LB, you want to be working your lats, not just those silly biceps (for swimming, anyway).
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:01 PM
I can do about 15-20 chin-ups, but it sure isn't pleasant.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:01 PM
Part of the problem is with the assisted pullup machine at my gym. It's configured for a very wide grip, too wide for me to reverse my hands. (Arms are out at ninety degrees to the side.) I think the configuration can flip so the handholds are on the inside, but I'm too short to change them.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:02 PM
So how many chinups can you do, ogged?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:02 PM
That seems like a lot, apo. Or should I say...Baconman?!! (But chin-ups don't count, wussy.)
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:04 PM
I got (only a few) compliments on my legs in high school but, and I could be wrong here, they seemed to involve an unstated comparison to my general
skinnythin look. Except when exercising or hiking, I almost always wore pants; I only heard compliments if I was wearing shorts (and not really more than a couple of times, either).On the other hand, in junior high the PE teachers were always on my case about my upper body strength not matching my lower body strength despite the fact that I swum regularly. There were good reasons why butterfly was my worst and breastroke my best strokes.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:04 PM
So I open up the page in the morning, I see 232 comments on a sex thread, figure I won't have time to catch up, check it out of curiosity, and it opens to a bunch of comments about exercising. You people are sick.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:06 PM
It was the tops of my feet, JM, which perhaps means I was doing it wrong and NOBODY BOTHERED TO TELL ME. God I'm bitter.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:06 PM
Back when I was swimming, before I was trying to lose muscle and gain fat for stomach surgery, I could do 8 pull-ups, I think. Of course, that was always post-swimming, so rested I probably could have done, oh, 50?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:06 PM
Howcome all the guys aren't chiming in with how many chin-ups they do
For the same reason I am abstaining from this discussion more generally: I am a large land mammal.
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:06 PM
232: I do okay with the upper body strength. However, I don't bother to try pull-ups. I'm sure the number is much lower.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:06 PM
228: At this point, I want to get up to the bar under my own power. Once I can do that, I'll worry about doing it with style. (And it's not like your lats don't work at all for a chin-up -- my biceps alone are about capable of lifting a sandwich. But every little bit helps.)
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:08 PM
236: Why lose muscle? I get the gain fat thing, but what was the muscle going to hurt?
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:13 PM
Okay, after trying with the closest thing that approximates a chin-up bar here in the house, 9-10 is more accurate range than 15-20.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:14 PM
Okay, when I was eight I could get my forehead to the bar. About half the time.
And Tia, I think you might indeed have been doing it wrong and nobody told you. I'd show you how to do it, but I seem to have left all of my hawse-lines back in California. Basically, you should be able to stand on the rope while you prepare your next inchworm assault. That does involve a loop going over one of your feet, but it works best if you go up orangatang-like, using the sides of your feet. (Also: showing up the patriarchy, personified by fat ex-Navy event judges, really is the best motivation for learning how to climb ropes fast.)
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:16 PM
I'm not sure I ever broke 10 pull-ups (or chin-ups, whichever is the easier one). Once again, Apostropher is the hero.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:16 PM
Ogged, are we in the post-feeling-bad/ok-to-rididule phase yet? Just askin'.
Sadly, I can't do many more pull-ups than that, but I think I outweigh you-- since you got the neuticles, I mean.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:17 PM
Oops. Sorry about that.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:17 PM
There was a not-okay-to-ridicule phase? Whoops. Sorry.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:18 PM
Once again, Apostropher is the hero.
The hero may have just pulled a muscle.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:20 PM
Why lose muscle?
Muscle burns more calories, and it's very hard to consume enough calories without a stomach, especially initially.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:22 PM
Ah. Makes sense. Jeez, you must be relieved -- I hadn't done the math on giving up any sort of athleticism.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:25 PM
And now I'm wondering if that was hideously insensitive of me to say. Um, I'm assuming that this is all right to talk about now that it's almost certainly not going to happen.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:33 PM
The funny thing is that I could do some pull-ups or chinups or whatever back when I did swimming, but the PE teachers were looking at everything according to some percentile system and my arm-strength percentiles were distinctly lower than those for other exercises.
Nowadays I don't think I could do any, but supposedly this is the summer I return to excercising regularly. I'll probably just start running again - I've tried weights and found them intensively boring - but I almost think I should look into boxing or something. I want to be prepared for the McManusapocalypse.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:35 PM
if that was hideously insensitive of me to say
Not at all; it would be fine to talk about even if it were going to happen.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-27-06 6:37 PM