Eh, I dunno. Pretty, yes, but only reasonably (and not absurdly) so. She's got a little bit of a Celine Dion thing going on in the top-right picture, which is a deal-breaker.
Yes, I called her "pretty" deliberately; she's not quite severe enough to be beautiful, and a little too genteel-looking to be hott. But she is absurdly pretty.
she is both pretty and hot. I'm not sure what you mean by fuckability, but if you mean "gets into sex," that is often not detectable via photograph, and when it is a surprise, all the better.
Also, as I think I've noted before, you're all on crack: those pictures are of her talking, not posing, and you all know how fucking stupid everyone looks when you snap a picture of them while they're talking. That she looks even borderline absurdly pretty in those pictures is simply evidence that she's absurdly pretty.
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
I think the pretty/hot distinction gets at more which sensory modality is envisioned as primary in relation to the object: visual or tactile. Not to say that one might be the sign of the other; one's visual pleasure derives from the signs of inferred potential tactile pleasure. (Potentiality of course cannot be taken in some counterfactual sense; neither the considerations text adduces in order to bracket in 23, nor this [comment 107], should be taken to count against potentiality in this sense.) But in hotness the presumptive tactile pleasure is known immediately rather than inferred.
No, absurdly large breasts definitely falls into "hot."
I can talk about men's looks, too, but this just doesn't seem to be the site for it. Anyway, straight women are just as bombarded with images of attractive women as you guys are.
Wait, Becks, you're seriously engaging that comment? No, not quite -- Angelina Jolie I think is hot from face alone. Scarlett Johansson ditto. In fact this was inspired partly by a discussion I had in a restaurant a while ago about the difference between our waitress, who was cute, and our hostess, who was hott and looked something like ScoJo (and was named Tia). OTOH you may notice that so far my criterion for "hot from face alone" seems to be big lips.
Wait, black dudes can use those hand gestures without seeming douchey, because what's most douchey about all those other guys is that they're from suburban Jersey but try to act like they're hard 'hood rats.
I would add a "natural" to 36. Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
It's likely I will be shouted down for this by the men.
I disagree, in that I've never seen anyone who I thought had breast implants. Since I have probably seen someone with breast implants, breast implants are not detectable to my eye. Therefore, they do not look any more ridiculous than disproportionately large natural breasts do.
The guy in 54 does fit my stereotype of what women would theoretically find attractive if they were interested in a man for reasons relating not just to his personality, though.
Yaphet Kotto is in no way "hot," and you know it, B, you troll. You might find the man attractive for his charisma and presence, and he has a great speaking voice, but hot he's not.
67 ("bouquet"), which I accidentally signed with a name I'd been saving for a comment on another thread, was a play on the subtle wine-snob aroma of ogged's 66 ("hint of Mongol invader").
In 70, ogged delights in my haplessness.
Actually, I don't get 72 either.
Finally, Yaphet Kotto is a Republican, and, at least for the duration of this sentence, so am I.
Let us compare. Kotto, again. Moore, finally wearing a decent pair of glasses.
Kotto: high brow; slightly arched eyebrow; intelligent, mischevious wide-open eyes with a bit of a droop at the corner that suggests a possible sadness/sensitivity; utterly charming smile lines; button nose (a large button, but still); full lips; cute little gap between front teeth; good facial structure; barrel chest; big, but solid.
Moore: Low, somewhat neanderthal brow; squinty eyes; chipmunky cheeks; narrow lips; pointy, nothing nose; no apparent jawline; slouchy posture; big in a soft, rather formless way.
Clive Owen is absurdly hot. Rhys-Meyers is beautiful. Melissa is TV-anchor pretty, Katie Couric girl-next-door pretty. Not hot. Mia Kirshner is pretty-hot.
34C or 36B is as big as I truly enjoy. De Gustibus.
Tho sometimes I like to slip into a lavender teddy.
B, it's not about whether a lonely woman in cold nowheresville might find comfort in thoughts of a big warm-blooded man, but about whether Yaphet Kotto is, specifically, hot. And I thought you understood what "hot" means.
But hot? For "hot", I think there must be some element of getting turned on by the idea of the person. Could you ever imagine thinking about Kotto while having sex?
Some enterprising blogger should post pictures of titties (hooray!) and have men and women give their estimates of proper bra sizes for said titties. I think this would be informative.
No, thirty years ago I lived in a different nowheresville, though I had friends. None of them were hot, though, given that we were all in fourth grade.
100:Naw. I don't need the lecture. I don't think. Narrow backs and all. What should I say:soup bowl? A half-canteloupe is bigger than I am attracted to.
If we're all talking about hotness, can I get an opinion on the likelihood of Johnny Depp singlehandedly widening the safe zone for straight guys and makeup? Maybe I've been standing in too many bus shelters (that movie poster is everywhere), but I keep looking at the eyeliner etc.
It makes me wonder if the 20-year shift towards mainstreaming of male earrings and the 10-year shift toward lip balm are going to be overtaken by an even faster evolution in the "okayness" (at least in urbanized areas) of male makeup.
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Think of the 1970s (Bowie, Marc Bolan, etc.) and late 80s (all the big-hair LA bands) incarnations of glam rock. Or bits of the early 80s 'New Romantic' period or even Elvis, for that matter.
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
In emeralds, we call it the jardin; in ordinary women, beauty, but in you, Bitch, your myriad flaws create something that no words can express.
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Thank god. My wife doesn't even wear very much, and it still looks like a huge pain in the ass to put on and take off. Chicks are all saying how hot Depp looks in it because they're trying to mess with us. I like the standards for beauty nice and unequal in my favor thank you very much.
Johnny Depp looks absurdly hot as Capn Jack. I think a lot of men would just look stupid though.
But Clive Owen is not hot. I think you lot must be somehow deluded by his Britishness. That Iranian football player though - oh yes :) And the French woman - very pretty, but doesn't do anything for me. Hottness is in the eye of the beholder?
Late to the conversation, but I agree with you 57. - large breasts whether real or fake are both extremely hot - the thing that matters is that they "look natural" and real (note: this excludes the circus show freakish ones 5x bigger than her head of course). I'm not well versed in bra sizes, so I'd say like maybe DD or E as maybe as ultimate? When my wife was nursing and 42E , mmmm, nice!
As for guys, it's cool that DrB (96) thinks "barrel chest; big, but solid" can be hot too, because that's pretty much me. I can bench press 400lbs, for example, but am not without any body fat.
Oh yeah, I agree completely with differences in pretty vs beautiful vs hot. Pretty usually means attractive face, but not necessarly sexy body; beautiful usually means very attractive face and look/style; and hot usually always means sexy body (like large breasts, round ass, etc.), with an above average face.
Yaphet Kotto is not hot. Johnny Depp as Captain Jack is absurdly hot. God. I don't think I've ever wanted a fictional character so much. But asilon. Dude.
Cup size is determined by band size, so it's really hard to say. Someone who is a 32F will look a lot smaller than someone who is a 42D. Add to that the fact that most women are wearing too big of a band size and too small a cup size means that guys who insist they like 36Cs probably like 34Ds just fine.
I am of the opinion that the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
Sure. I wasn't denying that some people might like smaller breasts. But whatever your preference, I don't think it can be pinned down to a specific cup size, e.g., "I like girls with C cups but D cups are too big", because those letters don't mean too much in isolation and everyone's wearing the wrong size most of the time anyway.
129: that makes sense to a large degree, I suppose. Since, beautiful = pretty + style, for most part.
130: of course, makes sense too. It's not accurate or fair to say everybody agrees X is the definition of ideal hotness. There's lots of variability. In fact, everybody has a different look that is judged, individually, as a whole. Lots of smaller breasted women can be very hot too. But, in the absence of considering other factors (face, legs, arms, sexual energy she exudes, etc.) larger breasts are probably hotter to more men, on average.
Having dated both ends of the spectrum and most points in between, I can honestly say breast size doesn't matter to me one bit, just so long as I gets to see 'em.
I thought for sure you'd have run out of exclamation points by now. Unless—you're poaching them from other commenters, you thief. *Victor Borge sounds*
Theuriau is very pretty, but not absurdly so. Padma Lakshmi is absurdly pretty. Being married to Salman Rushdie? Hott. He should really be throwing a douchebag hand sign, though.
Theuriau is prettier than Lakshmi. How is this even a question? I don't really understand the distinction between pretty and beautiful, except that beautiful is much more rare.
I would further like to note that a significant proportion of what appear to be exclamation points in my posts are actually inverted unused i's from my signature line.
the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
Nonsense. As the links in 141 show, pretty generally requires at least a minimum of grooming. Beautiful, on the other hand, is less about surface appearance and more about, maybe, structure.
I'll withdraw the Kotto = hot thing, since y'all are so insistent on it. But I remain adamant that if not "hot," he is nonetheless sexy.
It's a legacy of Timbot's childhood Reaganism that he hates all brown people not named Dinesh D'Souza. But you know who's absurdly pretty and beautiful? Aishwarya Rai.
141: Wow. A couple of friends of mine are cousins of Lakshmi's. Looking at the picture in the second link, I can see the same underlying facial structure as they have, even though I wouldn't normally have said they looked like her. Neat.
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Yeah! Small breasts on the right frame are good. One can't make generalizations about individual body parts. As Lichtenberg once observed, the whole wang must move—and be moved—together.
Isabelle Adjani is a good actress, too. I think Sophie Marceau is gorgeous, and sort of cast in the same mold as I.A., but she lacks some extra layer of grace, for being less talented. I.A. was amazing in The Story of Adèle H.
167 is true. However, all else being equal, slightly large breasts on a medium frame are the hotest. Although, there's plenty of small/petite women out there just as there's plenty of larger women just as there's plenty of taller/slender women who can all be very hot too.
I suppose breasts are analagous to muscles on guys. All else being equal women tend to prefer guys with above average muscle. But, it's not usually just how big they are, but how well defined and proportioned for the given guy's frame. That is, muscularity is probably more important than amount of muscle. But, I'm sure there's lots of individual women who prefer skinny guys just as there's lots of individual men who prefer smaller breasts, regardless of frame.
Adjani is a good comparison, as is Marceau. I also like Irene Jacob
Anne Hathaway may be a step beyond pretty. If you see a pattern in my preferences, you're right. They all look like Mom.
I keep looking at Theuriau and thinking she just needs a little something, eyeliner or brighter lipstick or blue contacts. Or a less homogenized persona. The PTB intentionally bland out anchors, and I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't prettier in non-professional circumstances. But the vast majority of anchors and reporters give me this impression, and it might be simply the type that gets hired. Almost x, but not quite.
183, 186: DrB, wikipedia has an entry for Body type preferences (among Whites and African Americans) ... of course is very generalized, but it says "For men, a more muscular physique with wider shoulders and a waist to hip ratio of 0.9 is considered more attractive." and for "For women, fuller breasts and hips 1/3 wider than the waist, or a waist to hip ratio of 0.7, is considered the ideal."
Seems consistent with our culture. Whether these very general preferences are innate or learned, is not as clear.
Anne Hathaway has breasts! I'm sold! Well linked, McManus. I find her attractive despite myself. She looks a bit callow, but I'm a human male, and eyes like that work on creatures like me.
How about this for nonsensical pseudoscience: an article that claims that in a poll of 151 women, 32 reported having an orgasm while giving birth. While I have no firsthand knowledge of giving birth, I find that unlikely. Ow ow ow.
Yeah, Anne Hathaway is totally hot. And Kate Beckinsale gives me a similar special feeling. But I'm afraid that, for me, nothing can ever top the young Audrey Hepburn. Jesus Pete, what an elegant beauty.
189: I think it's important to remember that there's much more to physical attraction that body type, it's but one variable, but how about this one? It says: "(Michael Cunningham (1990) found that women prefer men with moderately broad shoulders who are of medium height and have a chest slightly larger than average, but not as large and powerful as a traditional body builder’s chest.)"
I can kinda believe the orgasm thing. I mean, what is an orgasm if not powerful uterine contractions? Anyway, I can definitely say that post-childbirth orgasms are better.
I can believe it would make it feel better, but not that much better. This is a good argument for reversing the trend of everyone in the extended family being in the room for the delivery, though. Unless your mother-in-law is the type to pitch in and help stimulate your nipples.
Who said anything about unattractive? Rossy de Palma is hott.
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Are you saying I pwnd myself? Or is it just a reference to self-pollinating flowers? I need to know now so that, if the former, I can start making with the teo's mom jokes.
Tia, there's something very ordinary about Clive Owen, though I will grant that there was something kind of appealing about his sleaziness in Closer - anyway, I am conducting further research.
I once sent my 7 year old daughter to the shop to buy a (men's) magazine because it had a picture of Jake Gyllenhaal on the front.
Yeah, unconvincing. I don't know who these ridiculous men she knows are, but I'm quite sure that women are just as capable of behaving the same way. In fact, it occurs to me, I know women who've behaved that way.
Megan's wrong, though, in that whether or not the boy takes the step of calling/asking isn't actually a good signal of whether or not he's really interested. He might, for instance, just be picking up on signs that you'd like to ask him out and would but for the very reasons she adduces.
Megan's last comment AOTW: While I am excited for a wide diversity of opinion in the comments, I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone that From the Archives is very strongly pro-sodomy.
Ogged, you really need to get in touch with her. (Also, I think we now know why she ignored my exhortation to her to email you.)
Well, it's not an Iron Law, but don't you think that generally guys have a harder time saying "no" and breaking off relationships? Isn't this of a piece with the argument some of you have made in the past that it hurts more for a woman to be rejected by a man than vice-versa?
Actually, 221, translated, would be more like "If, as hypothesized, a guy wouldn't turn down a date with someone in whom he's only marginally interested, he might well also propose a date with such a person, too."
Further evidence (1) that nice guys are irritating;
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
I don't think Megan is talking about (or only talking about) guys who are too nice or too ball-deprived to just say no.
But Tia's also right in 218. It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
Come to think of it, I've behaved that way, and I went on a second date once, even though I didn't like the guy that much, because it was the end of long dry spell, I'd enjoyed the kissing on the previous one, and also I was getting bizarre pressure from my female coworkers (I'd met this guy through work) to give a nice boy a chance. Clementine has had whole relationships that were all about the guy liking her and her sort of going along with it. In fact, I was thinking of doing a post on Friday about that Monday guy, who I rejected definitively after the second time I saw him, but who made some stabs at getting me to reconsider, and how compelling it is sometimes that someone is interested in you (assuming you're drawn to them at all).
227--Wasn't that argument some version of "since guys are horny for anything that walks by, I must be especially unattractive since he rejects me"? If so, I'm hoping that most of us have grown out of that stage of puberty.
Yeah, I do think guys have a harder time saying no--I've never had a guy turn me down when I've asked him out, even if the subsequent date made it really clear that he wasn't interested. But that's what I mean by "grow some balls"--learn to say no.
I don't think it hurts women more to be rejected than it does men. If anything, I suspect that the constant encouragement men get to act like studs is all about covering up a collective male fear of being rejected.
Oh, come now, Tim. It's much more condescending towards men to hypothesize that women shouldn't ask them out because they're incapable of saying no than it is to say, ask them out if you're interested, and if they're not interested, they should say no.
It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
I don't think it's just guys at all. Don't we constantly hear about the woman who enters the relationship with the man, although she knows they aren't compatible, but she has faith in her ability to change him? And then he doesn't change, and she gets annoyed and breaks up with him, and he is frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because I get drunk and tell stupid jokes? That's what I was like when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
I think Megan is describing a similar situation, in which the man says "Well, she likes me, this is a rare opportunity. I think I'll probably get to like her after I get to know her better." And then he doesn't get to like her, and she gets frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because of that? You knew I was like that when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
It's all the same phenomenon of one person being satisfied with the relationship from beginning to end, and the other person not being satisfied at the beginning or at the end.
232: which is to say, it has required some willpower not to give in, and I don't think the battle is necessarily over, and if I did, I would be one of those women.
Aaaand, I've known a number of women who've done this sort of thing. One friend recently broke it off with a guy she was sort of casually dating and sleeping with because he suddenly felt that it was wrong to have sex with her without committing to her. She told me that she was totally fine with sex without commitment, but the moment he got some giant complex about it that interfered with the sex, he was no longer really worth her time. (Apparently, after telling him that, he tried to start it up again, but she was already vaguely insulted and irritated.)
All the examples I can think of from my experiences, or those of my friends, suggests not a gender divide, but simply that it's hard to let someone down gently, especially if there isn't a terribly obvious reason for breaking up.
Yeah, having someone obviously attracted to you can be a pretty powerful aphrodesiac, assuming they pass a certain basal threshhold of attractiveness to you.
A lot of people don't know how to create that kind of space, and say no even in non-romantic situations. It's hard even in everyday life to decide what you do and do not owe other people. And to not say yes to things you don't want, when you're just going to resent the other person for it.
247 gets it exactly right. The article's a little weird; it seems to postulate that everyone knows on the first date whether they're seriously interested in the person who asked them out, and if someone breaks up, there's a breach of contract or something going on. Whereas I think most first dates stem from 'Hmm, s/he seems hot. Why not?'
Using this time to catch up on your Derbyshire reading, are you?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:11 PM
an unconscionable dearth of "So-and-so is so hott!!" posts.
Later shortened to "Vader".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:18 PM
Eh, I dunno. Pretty, yes, but only reasonably (and not absurdly) so. She's got a little bit of a Celine Dion thing going on in the top-right picture, which is a deal-breaker.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:35 PM
mrh, are you nuts? She is absurdly pretty.
My question is, does pretty = hott? B/c I think of them as separate, if occasionally overlapping, categories.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:42 PM
Aw, man, that didn't take long.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:43 PM
I think she's only reasonably pretty. She's absurdly pretty for a news anchor, because they are usually more grossly blow dried looking than she is.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:45 PM
"Pretty" is just what you call the hott girls to their faces so they don't think you're a sexist pig.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:46 PM
No, pretty implies a kind of delicacy. Hot (of the one or two t variety) implies fuckability, which may or may not have anything to do with pretty.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:48 PM
5: Huh?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:49 PM
Ha! Tia agrees with me, so I may not be nuts.
She's pretty -- she's even hot(t) -- but she wouldn't crack the top ten, which I think would be necessary for absurdity.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:49 PM
Yes, I called her "pretty" deliberately; she's not quite severe enough to be beautiful, and a little too genteel-looking to be hott. But she is absurdly pretty.
To Bridgeplate I say, bwahahaha!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:50 PM
Uh, I hope you're not taking 7 seriously...
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:52 PM
she is both pretty and hot. I'm not sure what you mean by fuckability, but if you mean "gets into sex," that is often not detectable via photograph, and when it is a surprise, all the better.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:54 PM
Ok, hang on, I just watched some of the videos at the linked site, and in motion, she's even prettier.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:55 PM
11 gets it exactly right.
Teo, of course I'm taking 7 seriously. No backpedalling.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:55 PM
Also, as I think I've noted before, you're all on crack: those pictures are of her talking, not posing, and you all know how fucking stupid everyone looks when you snap a picture of them while they're talking. That she looks even borderline absurdly pretty in those pictures is simply evidence that she's absurdly pretty.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:56 PM
There you go, mrh.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:57 PM
5: Huh?
I was hoping it would take more than, say, two measly comments before people took the bait.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 9:58 PM
Why do you hate bait,
Standpipe Bridgeplate?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:00 PM
I second #16, although with glasses I bet she'd be hot in a "naughty librarian" kind of way.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:00 PM
15: Okay, but I don't believe it so I'm not going to stand by it.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:01 PM
We have to indulge Ogged. He has cancer.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:01 PM
I've personally never met a pretty girl who I did not want to have sex with, putting aside all non-aesthetic considerations and moral constraints.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:01 PM
You're going to have to do better than that, Ogged. They're getting really nitpicky about scansion and stuff.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:01 PM
22 gets it exactly right.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:02 PM
19: But while the servant waits . . .
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:02 PM
22 - Why do you think this post is called "Remedy"? Melissa Theuriau needs to cure what ails him.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:04 PM
22 to 18.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:04 PM
Melissa Theuriau needs to cure what ails him.
Under her assumed name, Booty Callin's.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:08 PM
?She's pretty but there's something kind of bland and unmemorable about her features.
She's no Jumana Namour.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:08 PM
Is that a feral cedilla at the beginning of 30? These are strange times.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:10 PM
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:12 PM
For a straight woman you sure have a lot of categories for feminine attractiveness.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:13 PM
and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
Yeah, like absurdly large breasts.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:13 PM
I think the pretty/hot distinction gets at more which sensory modality is envisioned as primary in relation to the object: visual or tactile. Not to say that one might be the sign of the other; one's visual pleasure derives from the signs of inferred potential tactile pleasure. (Potentiality of course cannot be taken in some counterfactual sense; neither the considerations text adduces in order to bracket in 23, nor this [comment 107], should be taken to count against potentiality in this sense.) But in hotness the presumptive tactile pleasure is known immediately rather than inferred.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:14 PM
No, absurdly large breasts definitely falls into "hot."
I can talk about men's looks, too, but this just doesn't seem to be the site for it. Anyway, straight women are just as bombarded with images of attractive women as you guys are.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:16 PM
Get back to work, Bruce.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:16 PM
So, Weiner, are you just trying to say that pretty refers to the face and hot to the body?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:16 PM
Sigh
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:17 PM
I would add a "natural" to 36. Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
It's likely I will be shouted down for this by the men.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:17 PM
39 = definitely hot.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:18 PM
Natural is good.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:19 PM
Yeah, like absurdly large breasts.
Absurdly large natural breasts.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:19 PM
Wait, Becks, you're seriously engaging that comment? No, not quite -- Angelina Jolie I think is hot from face alone. Scarlett Johansson ditto. In fact this was inspired partly by a discussion I had in a restaurant a while ago about the difference between our waitress, who was cute, and our hostess, who was hott and looked something like ScoJo (and was named Tia). OTOH you may notice that so far my criterion for "hot from face alone" seems to be big lips.
Get back to work
You're assuming facts decidedly not in evidence.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:20 PM
Clive Owen is def hot, as uncool adults would say.
And in the spirit of the World Cup, I submit that David Beckham is just a pretty-boy, and not really hot, but Zidane is manly and hot.
Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
Just about all implants look ridiculous.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:21 PM
For a straight guy, you sure know a lot about the categories of male attractiveness.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:22 PM
This picture does not quite convey how insanely gorgeous this man is on screen.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:23 PM
I should have said, as Jonathan Rhys-Meyers would say, incredibly sensual lips.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:24 PM
Get to work, Bruce.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:25 PM
Tia, those are douchebag hand gestures.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:25 PM
#50
Yes, yes they are.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:26 PM
Don't breakdancers get to use the douchebag hand gestures or something?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:27 PM
Only in an ironic manner.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:28 PM
Also pretty hot.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:28 PM
to rephrase: aren't tv show breakdancers douchebags?
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:29 PM
Wait, black dudes can use those hand gestures without seeming douchey, because what's most douchey about all those other guys is that they're from suburban Jersey but try to act like they're hard 'hood rats.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:29 PM
I would add a "natural" to 36. Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
It's likely I will be shouted down for this by the men.
I disagree, in that I've never seen anyone who I thought had breast implants. Since I have probably seen someone with breast implants, breast implants are not detectable to my eye. Therefore, they do not look any more ridiculous than disproportionately large natural breasts do.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:29 PM
In 57 the first two lines are both quotes.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:30 PM
That's great B, especially since the last part of his name, "nekounam" sounds precisely the same as the Farsi word for "my ass."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:30 PM
You don't get this kind of value-added on other blogs, you know.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:31 PM
54: That guy looks like Clive Owen.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:31 PM
pretty, hot, it's all just an order of magnitude difference in the category of people I want to have sex with.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:31 PM
I bet he has a hot ass.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:33 PM
Wait, black dudes can use those hand gestures without seeming douchey
Not if they've got a hat hanging from their belt that matches their armband, wristband, and shirt.
Although a non black guy could effortlessly out douche that ensemble with a popped collar and/or a backwards upsidedown visor.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:35 PM
The guy in 54 does fit my stereotype of what women would theoretically find attractive if they were interested in a man for reasons relating not just to his personality, though.
Jonathan Rhys Meyers does not.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:36 PM
Hey, that Iranian dude is good looking; you can see a hint of the Mongol invaders in him.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:41 PM
How's his bouquet?
Posted by Susej H. Tsirhc | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:43 PM
Erm.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:44 PM
66: In that picture he looks even more like Clive Owen.
In fact, every time I've ever heard a woman say a man was attractive, he turned out to look like Clive Owen.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:44 PM
You don't have to make this more fun for me than it already is, SB.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:50 PM
Hot. Does not look like Clive Owen.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:52 PM
meets my definition.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:53 PM
I don't get 67.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:53 PM
Or 72. Maybe it's time for me to go to bed.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:55 PM
Wait, 67 is the one who's so hot we might be willing to forgive him for endorsing Steve Forbes? WTF?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:55 PM
Wait, 67 is the one who's so hot we might be willing to forgive him for endorsing Steve Forbes? WTF?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:55 PM
Suddenly I find Republican policies more compelling.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:56 PM
Um, if I was going to post twice, maybe I should have got the number (67 s/b 72) right once. I blame Safari.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:57 PM
hey, when did we stop talking about hot chicks? I'm spending some more time with ogged's link now.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:58 PM
I'm so confused.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:58 PM
No, we can't forgive his politics, I just find him sexy.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:58 PM
Yaphet Kotto is in no way "hot," and you know it, B, you troll. You might find the man attractive for his charisma and presence, and he has a great speaking voice, but hot he's not.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:58 PM
He is hot. He is neither pretty nor beautiful nor handsome nor even especially good-looking, but he is definitely hot.
Bill Clinton has to be hot too, in person. B/c his weird nose is just totally gross, and yet he supposedly makes women swoon.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 10:59 PM
There's a difference between "hot" and magnetism or charisma.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:01 PM
Preach it, Becks.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:02 PM
Agreed. We are talking visual aspects here (or perhaps sensory).
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:04 PM
And why is Yaphet Kotto not hot, hmmmmm?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:04 PM
I will explain all.
67 ("bouquet"), which I accidentally signed with a name I'd been saving for a comment on another thread, was a play on the subtle wine-snob aroma of ogged's 66 ("hint of Mongol invader").
In 70, ogged delights in my haplessness.
Actually, I don't get 72 either.
Finally, Yaphet Kotto is a Republican, and, at least for the duration of this sentence, so am I.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:05 PM
I thought we were joking about Kotto. I hate you all.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:05 PM
Because he seems to look somewhat like Michael Moore would if he cleaned up and got a tan?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:05 PM
I can't even believe we're debating this.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:07 PM
Are you shitting me? Michael Moore and Yaphet Kotto look nothing alike. They're both big men, and that's about it.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:07 PM
See what you did to the thread, B? We were all "Woo! Hotness!" and then you had to get all cute by bringing in 70 year old Republicans. Tsk tsk.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:13 PM
Well, yeah, that was an exaggeration meant to convey "pudgy and not good-looking." Still, that picture is not a picture of a hot person.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:13 PM
This is better.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:15 PM
Let us compare. Kotto, again. Moore, finally wearing a decent pair of glasses.
Kotto: high brow; slightly arched eyebrow; intelligent, mischevious wide-open eyes with a bit of a droop at the corner that suggests a possible sadness/sensitivity; utterly charming smile lines; button nose (a large button, but still); full lips; cute little gap between front teeth; good facial structure; barrel chest; big, but solid.
Moore: Low, somewhat neanderthal brow; squinty eyes; chipmunky cheeks; narrow lips; pointy, nothing nose; no apparent jawline; slouchy posture; big in a soft, rather formless way.
No contest.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:15 PM
95 - Depends on your definition of "better", Weiner. Click your link.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:16 PM
Clive Owen is absurdly hot. Rhys-Meyers is beautiful. Melissa is TV-anchor pretty, Katie Couric girl-next-door pretty. Not hot. Mia Kirshner is pretty-hot.
34C or 36B is as big as I truly enjoy. De Gustibus.
Tho sometimes I like to slip into a lavender teddy.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:17 PM
93: Dude, Ned issued a challenge, and I had to think quickly of someone who is hot and not the least bit Clive Owenish.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:17 PM
34C or 36B is as big as I truly enjoy.
Resisting ... urge ... to ... lecture ... about ... bra sizing.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:18 PM
100 - I was just about to go there. What he's probably thinking of as 34C is someone who should really be wearing a 34DD. Minimum.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:19 PM
B, it's not about whether a lonely woman in cold nowheresville might find comfort in thoughts of a big warm-blooded man, but about whether Yaphet Kotto is, specifically, hot. And I thought you understood what "hot" means.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:19 PM
97: I meant, "A picture of YK where he looks better than in b's original link."
What about hot asian guy from the hotchickswithdouchebags thread? Did he look like Clive Owen?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:21 PM
Hey, I thought Kotto was hot back when I lived in somewheresville and had plenty of non-imaginary friends, you.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:21 PM
Yeah, but that was like, thirty years ago, when he looked pretty good.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:22 PM
But hot? For "hot", I think there must be some element of getting turned on by the idea of the person. Could you ever imagine thinking about Kotto while having sex?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:24 PM
Some enterprising blogger should post pictures of titties (hooray!) and have men and women give their estimates of proper bra sizes for said titties. I think this would be informative.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:24 PM
No, thirty years ago I lived in a different nowheresville, though I had friends. None of them were hot, though, given that we were all in fourth grade.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:25 PM
100:Naw. I don't need the lecture. I don't think. Narrow backs and all. What should I say:soup bowl? A half-canteloupe is bigger than I am attracted to.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:26 PM
106: If I were having sex with him? Sure.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:26 PM
107 - There's this but the women all appear to be wearing the wrong sized bras.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:27 PM
Okay, I'm tired. Off to bed and sweet dreams of Yaphet Kotto.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:30 PM
So, uh, does anyone else think this Kotto fellow is hot? Because I'm really not seing it.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:34 PM
"seeing"
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:34 PM
Instapundit does.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:35 PM
I should go to bed too.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:35 PM
What should I say:soup bowl? A half-canteloupe is bigger than I am attracted to.
At least up to the honeydew.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-23-06 11:43 PM
If we're all talking about hotness, can I get an opinion on the likelihood of Johnny Depp singlehandedly widening the safe zone for straight guys and makeup? Maybe I've been standing in too many bus shelters (that movie poster is everywhere), but I keep looking at the eyeliner etc.
It makes me wonder if the 20-year shift towards mainstreaming of male earrings and the 10-year shift toward lip balm are going to be overtaken by an even faster evolution in the "okayness" (at least in urbanized areas) of male makeup.
Mediocre visual here.
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 12:21 AM
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Think of the 1970s (Bowie, Marc Bolan, etc.) and late 80s (all the big-hair LA bands) incarnations of glam rock. Or bits of the early 80s 'New Romantic' period or even Elvis, for that matter.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 12:38 AM
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
In emeralds, we call it the jardin; in ordinary women, beauty, but in you, Bitch, your myriad flaws create something that no words can express.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 12:39 AM
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Thank god. My wife doesn't even wear very much, and it still looks like a huge pain in the ass to put on and take off. Chicks are all saying how hot Depp looks in it because they're trying to mess with us. I like the standards for beauty nice and unequal in my favor thank you very much.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:27 AM
Johnny Depp looks absurdly hot as Capn Jack. I think a lot of men would just look stupid though.
But Clive Owen is not hot. I think you lot must be somehow deluded by his Britishness. That Iranian football player though - oh yes :) And the French woman - very pretty, but doesn't do anything for me. Hottness is in the eye of the beholder?
Posted by asilon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:59 AM
As slolernr might say, "Johnny Depp looks hot in long hair, a scraggly beard, and makeup. You are not Johnny Depp. Don't even think about it."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 5:12 AM
Just for the record, I thought "absurdly pretty" was a good call.
Where does "cute" fall in all this? It seems different from pretty, though there would be some overlap.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 7:51 AM
There you go again, Adam, with that "heighten the contradictions" thing.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:20 AM
Late to the conversation, but I agree with you 57. - large breasts whether real or fake are both extremely hot - the thing that matters is that they "look natural" and real (note: this excludes the circus show freakish ones 5x bigger than her head of course). I'm not well versed in bra sizes, so I'd say like maybe DD or E as maybe as ultimate? When my wife was nursing and 42E , mmmm, nice!
As for guys, it's cool that DrB (96) thinks "barrel chest; big, but solid" can be hot too, because that's pretty much me. I can bench press 400lbs, for example, but am not without any body fat.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:23 AM
Oh yeah, I agree completely with differences in pretty vs beautiful vs hot. Pretty usually means attractive face, but not necessarly sexy body; beautiful usually means very attractive face and look/style; and hot usually always means sexy body (like large breasts, round ass, etc.), with an above average face.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:28 AM
Yaphet Kotto is not hot. Johnny Depp as Captain Jack is absurdly hot. God. I don't think I've ever wanted a fictional character so much. But asilon. Dude.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:35 AM
Cup size is determined by band size, so it's really hard to say. Someone who is a 32F will look a lot smaller than someone who is a 42D. Add to that the fact that most women are wearing too big of a band size and too small a cup size means that guys who insist they like 36Cs probably like 34Ds just fine.
I am of the opinion that the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:37 AM
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:43 AM
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:43 AM
Sure. I wasn't denying that some people might like smaller breasts. But whatever your preference, I don't think it can be pinned down to a specific cup size, e.g., "I like girls with C cups but D cups are too big", because those letters don't mean too much in isolation and everyone's wearing the wrong size most of the time anyway.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:52 AM
129: that makes sense to a large degree, I suppose. Since, beautiful = pretty + style, for most part.
130: of course, makes sense too. It's not accurate or fair to say everybody agrees X is the definition of ideal hotness. There's lots of variability. In fact, everybody has a different look that is judged, individually, as a whole. Lots of smaller breasted women can be very hot too. But, in the absence of considering other factors (face, legs, arms, sexual energy she exudes, etc.) larger breasts are probably hotter to more men, on average.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:55 AM
132: I could buy that too; thanks for the point of clarification.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 8:57 AM
larger breasts are probably hotter to more men
Having dated both ends of the spectrum and most points in between, I can honestly say breast size doesn't matter to me one bit, just so long as I gets to see 'em.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:11 AM
135 gets it exactly right.
Show us your tits, apostropher!!!
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:14 AM
135 does indeed get it exactly right.
And I love Johnny Depp, I really do, but as Captain Jack? No one cares about bathing habits anymore, do they?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:18 AM
I thought for sure you'd have run out of exclamation points by now. Unless—you're poaching them from other commenters, you thief. *Victor Borge sounds*
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:24 AM
Theuriau is very pretty, but not absurdly so. Padma Lakshmi is absurdly pretty. Being married to Salman Rushdie? Hott. He should really be throwing a douchebag hand sign, though.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:24 AM
138 to M/tch.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:25 AM
You're all wet, apostropher. Lakshmi is quite beautiful, but not particularly pretty.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:43 AM
Bridgeplate, any exclamation points used by commenters other than M/ills are on loan from M/ills.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:50 AM
Theuriau is prettier than Lakshmi. How is this even a question? I don't really understand the distinction between pretty and beautiful, except that beautiful is much more rare.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 9:56 AM
I'll let you borrow some if you're nicer to me, SB.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:05 AM
Anyway, the extra exclamation points in 136 are to make up for the sad fact that there are no emoticons for douchebag handsigns.
Also: Prettiness/beauty/hottnes/etc. is in the eye of the beholeder.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:08 AM
Hmm, that is a pretty unflattering picture. But she's married to Salman Rushdie! That worth, like, 25 bonus pretty points right there.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:08 AM
I think she's suffering from Bleeth syndrome. Or whatever it's called.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:10 AM
I would further like to note that a significant proportion of what appear to be exclamation points in my posts are actually inverted unused i's from my signature line.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:14 AM
Theuriau is prettier than Lakshmi. How is this even a question?
Racist.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:15 AM
Okay, I've got to post this and another comment before apo gets his next one in, to keep the rhythm going . . .
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:18 AM
Not surprisingly, her face doesn't look nearly that bad in these nude glamour shots.
Posted by pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:27 AM
the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
Nonsense. As the links in 141 show, pretty generally requires at least a minimum of grooming. Beautiful, on the other hand, is less about surface appearance and more about, maybe, structure.
I'll withdraw the Kotto = hot thing, since y'all are so insistent on it. But I remain adamant that if not "hot," he is nonetheless sexy.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:28 AM
It's a legacy of Timbot's childhood Reaganism that he hates all brown people not named Dinesh D'Souza. But you know who's absurdly pretty and beautiful? Aishwarya Rai.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:29 AM
True story: my comment started with Aishwarya Rai, but she wasn't married to Rushdie.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:31 AM
153: "absurdly pretty" s/b "light-skinned"
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:32 AM
Man that whole page you linked ogged is like the Grand Imperial Palace of HCWD.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:34 AM
Beautiful, on the other hand, is less about surface appearance and more about, maybe, structure
"Structure" is correct.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:35 AM
he hates all brown people not named Dinesh D'Souza
Ramesh Ponnuru?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:37 AM
Rossy de Palma: hot, beautiful, handsome, or pretty?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:40 AM
None of the above.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:42 AM
Intriguingly homely.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:42 AM
Jolie laide?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:42 AM
She looks like John Kerry.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:48 AM
I find her fascinating-looking. I'd be inclined to call her strangely beautiful.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:56 AM
141: Wow. A couple of friends of mine are cousins of Lakshmi's. Looking at the picture in the second link, I can see the same underlying facial structure as they have, even though I wouldn't normally have said they looked like her. Neat.
Posted by JL | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 10:57 AM
I'd be inclined to call her strangely beautiful.
The coelacanth is "strangely beautiful." Rossy de Palma is "kinda funny-lookin'."
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:02 AM
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Yeah! Small breasts on the right frame are good. One can't make generalizations about individual body parts. As Lichtenberg once observed, the whole wang must move—and be moved—together.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:07 AM
166: coelacanth is the name of my computer, no lie, both locally and through dyndns.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:09 AM
168 was me.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:10 AM
Isabelle Adjani. Who slides between preternaturally hot and 'kinda funny-looking' at different times.
Really really beautiful people are often right on the edge of sliding into 'kinda funny looking'.
Posted by Matt McGrattan | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:14 AM
There is nothing funny-looking about Isabella Adjani.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:16 AM
Her cheeks are strange, no?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:18 AM
I dunno, Tim. The picture is from the shoulders up.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:19 AM
Rossy de Palma: freakish but expensively groomed.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 11:56 AM
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Rossy de Palma is the abandoned love-child of Pablo Picasso and Amadeo Modigliano.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 12:13 PM
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 12:56 PM
To what comment are you addressing your question, B?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:06 PM
My guitar buddy's wife looks very much like Aishwarya Rai. We all say he won the arranged marriage jackpot.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:18 PM
178: Jeebus. If she really looks like Rai, I'm not sure "won the arranged marriage jackpot" really captures the relevant magnitude.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:21 PM
Isabelle Adjani is a good actress, too. I think Sophie Marceau is gorgeous, and sort of cast in the same mold as I.A., but she lacks some extra layer of grace, for being less talented. I.A. was amazing in The Story of Adèle H.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:21 PM
167 is true. However, all else being equal, slightly large breasts on a medium frame are the hotest. Although, there's plenty of small/petite women out there just as there's plenty of larger women just as there's plenty of taller/slender women who can all be very hot too.
I suppose breasts are analagous to muscles on guys. All else being equal women tend to prefer guys with above average muscle. But, it's not usually just how big they are, but how well defined and proportioned for the given guy's frame. That is, muscularity is probably more important than amount of muscle. But, I'm sure there's lots of individual women who prefer skinny guys just as there's lots of individual men who prefer smaller breasts, regardless of frame.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:23 PM
176 is responding to the comment immediately preceding it.
Argentina v. Mexico? Incredibly hott.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:24 PM
All else being equal women tend to prefer guys with above average muscle.
You believe this because why?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:24 PM
I think I just pwned myself.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:26 PM
It happens.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:28 PM
You believe this because why?
(searching for some studies now to support what I believe to be commonly assumed ... again, all else being equal)
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:31 PM
Adjani is a good comparison, as is Marceau. I also like Irene Jacob
Anne Hathaway may be a step beyond pretty. If you see a pattern in my preferences, you're right. They all look like Mom.
I keep looking at Theuriau and thinking she just needs a little something, eyeliner or brighter lipstick or blue contacts. Or a less homogenized persona. The PTB intentionally bland out anchors, and I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't prettier in non-professional circumstances. But the vast majority of anchors and reporters give me this impression, and it might be simply the type that gets hired. Almost x, but not quite.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:32 PM
183, 186: DrB, wikipedia has an entry for Body type preferences (among Whites and African Americans) ... of course is very generalized, but it says "For men, a more muscular physique with wider shoulders and a waist to hip ratio of 0.9 is considered more attractive." and for "For women, fuller breasts and hips 1/3 wider than the waist, or a waist to hip ratio of 0.7, is considered the ideal."
Seems consistent with our culture. Whether these very general preferences are innate or learned, is not as clear.
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:38 PM
I reject this sort of nonsensical pseudoscience out of hand.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:47 PM
Anne Hathaway has breasts! I'm sold! Well linked, McManus. I find her attractive despite myself. She looks a bit callow, but I'm a human male, and eyes like that work on creatures like me.
You remain on crack about Theuriau, however.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:49 PM
How about this for nonsensical pseudoscience: an article that claims that in a poll of 151 women, 32 reported having an orgasm while giving birth. While I have no firsthand knowledge of giving birth, I find that unlikely. Ow ow ow.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:52 PM
Maybe the baby kept moving in and out really quickly, at just the right angle.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:53 PM
Yeah, Anne Hathaway is totally hot. And Kate Beckinsale gives me a similar special feeling. But I'm afraid that, for me, nothing can ever top the young Audrey Hepburn. Jesus Pete, what an elegant beauty.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 1:57 PM
189: I think it's important to remember that there's much more to physical attraction that body type, it's but one variable, but how about this one? It says: "(Michael Cunningham (1990) found that women prefer men with moderately broad shoulders who are of medium height and have a chest slightly larger than average, but not as large and powerful as a traditional body builder’s chest.)"
Posted by TD | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:05 PM
I can kinda believe the orgasm thing. I mean, what is an orgasm if not powerful uterine contractions? Anyway, I can definitely say that post-childbirth orgasms are better.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:11 PM
I can believe that some sexual attention during labor would make it feel better. It makes period cramps better.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:13 PM
I think it's Susie Bright who says she used a vibrator during childbirth and found the experience quite enjoyable.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:14 PM
I can believe it would make it feel better, but not that much better. This is a good argument for reversing the trend of everyone in the extended family being in the room for the delivery, though. Unless your mother-in-law is the type to pitch in and help stimulate your nipples.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:15 PM
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Who said anything about unattractive? Rossy de Palma is hott.
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Are you saying I pwnd myself? Or is it just a reference to self-pollinating flowers? I need to know now so that, if the former, I can start making with the teo's mom jokes.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:17 PM
Anne Hathaway is attractive because she looks like a normal, gettable human being. Attractive, but not the French woman.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:18 PM
Oh crap. The second quote in my last post should be teofilo's "It happens."
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:20 PM
And crappity crap. 199 was me.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:21 PM
Attractive, but not the French woman.
Do you refer to one of the French women named, or the mythical ungettable French woman?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:22 PM
The newscaster.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:28 PM
Anne Hathaway may be a step beyond pretty. If you see a pattern in my preferences, you're right. They all look like Mom.
Your mom looks like that? What're her rates?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:31 PM
I thought grad students were always broke.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:42 PM
You know, the more I look at photos of young mlle.Theriau, the more her bon chic bon genre type of prettiness puts me off.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:46 PM
I agree with JM in 207.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 2:47 PM
Argentina/Mexico extra time = bonus hottness.
Tia, there's something very ordinary about Clive Owen, though I will grant that there was something kind of appealing about his sleaziness in Closer - anyway, I am conducting further research.
I once sent my 7 year old daughter to the shop to buy a (men's) magazine because it had a picture of Jake Gyllenhaal on the front.
Posted by asilon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:01 PM
Argentina just went ahead.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:09 PM
You know what was a good post? Megan's explanation of why women shouldn't ask out men.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:09 PM
Further evidence (1) that nice guys are irritating; (2) that Ogged likes to troll his own readers.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:18 PM
Unconvincing.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:18 PM
nice guys are irritating
Says the woman named Bitch.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:19 PM
Wait, what? I'm serious, I think she's on to something.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:21 PM
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:22 PM
I didn't quite get the "added later" part.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:22 PM
Yeah, unconvincing. I don't know who these ridiculous men she knows are, but I'm quite sure that women are just as capable of behaving the same way. In fact, it occurs to me, I know women who've behaved that way.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:22 PM
What precisely do you think she's on to, ogged?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:24 PM
ac, I think that's a rephrasing of her 7:21pm comment.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:24 PM
Megan's wrong, though, in that whether or not the boy takes the step of calling/asking isn't actually a good signal of whether or not he's really interested. He might, for instance, just be picking up on signs that you'd like to ask him out and would but for the very reasons she adduces.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:24 PM
Tia gets it exactly right in 218.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:25 PM
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
Or "women should stop assuming that their vague messages are being received".
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:25 PM
216- You, the woman, can't control whether the guy has balls or not. You can control your own actions. (At least theoretically.)
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:25 PM
221, translated: I don't care if she says "yes" or not, I'm doing her a favor.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:29 PM
Megan's last comment AOTW: While I am excited for a wide diversity of opinion in the comments, I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone that From the Archives is very strongly pro-sodomy.
Ogged, you really need to get in touch with her. (Also, I think we now know why she ignored my exhortation to her to email you.)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:29 PM
Well, it's not an Iron Law, but don't you think that generally guys have a harder time saying "no" and breaking off relationships? Isn't this of a piece with the argument some of you have made in the past that it hurts more for a woman to be rejected by a man than vice-versa?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:29 PM
223: Asking someone out is a "vague message"? I think not.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:29 PM
Actually, 221, translated, would be more like "If, as hypothesized, a guy wouldn't turn down a date with someone in whom he's only marginally interested, he might well also propose a date with such a person, too."
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:31 PM
Well, it's not an Iron Law, but don't you think that generally guys have a harder time saying "no" and breaking off relationships?
Who says, "No"? You just never call again.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:31 PM
Further evidence (1) that nice guys are irritating;
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
I don't think Megan is talking about (or only talking about) guys who are too nice or too ball-deprived to just say no.
But Tia's also right in 218. It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:31 PM
Come to think of it, I've behaved that way, and I went on a second date once, even though I didn't like the guy that much, because it was the end of long dry spell, I'd enjoyed the kissing on the previous one, and also I was getting bizarre pressure from my female coworkers (I'd met this guy through work) to give a nice boy a chance. Clementine has had whole relationships that were all about the guy liking her and her sort of going along with it. In fact, I was thinking of doing a post on Friday about that Monday guy, who I rejected definitively after the second time I saw him, but who made some stabs at getting me to reconsider, and how compelling it is sometimes that someone is interested in you (assuming you're drawn to them at all).
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:32 PM
223: Asking someone out is a "vague message"? I think not.
No, I don't think that's what Cryptic Ned meant—read some of Megan's comments about subtlety (I mean, some of the commenters' comments).
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:33 PM
227--Wasn't that argument some version of "since guys are horny for anything that walks by, I must be especially unattractive since he rejects me"? If so, I'm hoping that most of us have grown out of that stage of puberty.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:33 PM
You just never call again.
That's horrible, though I realize it's almost become the norm.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:34 PM
Yeah, I do think guys have a harder time saying no--I've never had a guy turn me down when I've asked him out, even if the subsequent date made it really clear that he wasn't interested. But that's what I mean by "grow some balls"--learn to say no.
I don't think it hurts women more to be rejected than it does men. If anything, I suspect that the constant encouragement men get to act like studs is all about covering up a collective male fear of being rejected.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:35 PM
It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
Isn't the theory "a lot of people don't know how to say no graciously"?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:37 PM
But B, I think having balls is a big part of the reason many guys find it hard to say, "no".
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:38 PM
That's horrible, though I realize it's almost become the norm.
It was a joke, and it's not anything like a norm. You prat. I've only done that once.
If anything, I suspect that the constant encouragement men get to act like studs is all about covering up a collective male fear of being rejected.
It's surprising how much of the world can be explained by male failings.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:38 PM
Oh, come now, Tim. It's much more condescending towards men to hypothesize that women shouldn't ask them out because they're incapable of saying no than it is to say, ask them out if you're interested, and if they're not interested, they should say no.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:40 PM
It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
I don't think it's just guys at all. Don't we constantly hear about the woman who enters the relationship with the man, although she knows they aren't compatible, but she has faith in her ability to change him? And then he doesn't change, and she gets annoyed and breaks up with him, and he is frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because I get drunk and tell stupid jokes? That's what I was like when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
I think Megan is describing a similar situation, in which the man says "Well, she likes me, this is a rare opportunity. I think I'll probably get to like her after I get to know her better." And then he doesn't get to like her, and she gets frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because of that? You knew I was like that when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
It's all the same phenomenon of one person being satisfied with the relationship from beginning to end, and the other person not being satisfied at the beginning or at the end.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:40 PM
232: which is to say, it has required some willpower not to give in, and I don't think the battle is necessarily over, and if I did, I would be one of those women.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:41 PM
Aaaand, I've known a number of women who've done this sort of thing. One friend recently broke it off with a guy she was sort of casually dating and sleeping with because he suddenly felt that it was wrong to have sex with her without committing to her. She told me that she was totally fine with sex without commitment, but the moment he got some giant complex about it that interfered with the sex, he was no longer really worth her time. (Apparently, after telling him that, he tried to start it up again, but she was already vaguely insulted and irritated.)
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:43 PM
All the examples I can think of from my experiences, or those of my friends, suggests not a gender divide, but simply that it's hard to let someone down gently, especially if there isn't a terribly obvious reason for breaking up.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:44 PM
241 is also compatible with 244.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:45 PM
Huh, I guess I'm convinced. I need to get out more.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:46 PM
Yeah, having someone obviously attracted to you can be a pretty powerful aphrodesiac, assuming they pass a certain basal threshhold of attractiveness to you.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:46 PM
The formal form of this problem is, of course, marriage.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:46 PM
A lot of people don't know how to create that kind of space, and say no even in non-romantic situations. It's hard even in everyday life to decide what you do and do not owe other people. And to not say yes to things you don't want, when you're just going to resent the other person for it.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:50 PM
247 gets it exactly right. The article's a little weird; it seems to postulate that everyone knows on the first date whether they're seriously interested in the person who asked them out, and if someone breaks up, there's a breach of contract or something going on. Whereas I think most first dates stem from 'Hmm, s/he seems hot. Why not?'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:52 PM
assuming they pass a certain basal threshhold of attractiveness to you.
i.e. more attractive than Rossy de Palma.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:54 PM
The interesting thing about Adèle H. is that in it, one of the most beautiful women in the world, a tender young Isabelle Adjani, get rejected.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-24-06 3:57 PM
Since this seems to be the thread to point to random web pages, I'll just note that