I admit that I'm naive as to the ways of the world, but the logistics of this arrangement seem needlessly complicated. Also, isn't "pay for her cab" sort of a standard thing for the guy to do?
With the orgasm thing, I think some guys just assume that most women don't have them, or only have them with great difficulty, so if he puts in a half-hearted effort for a couple minutes and nothing happens, he's off the hook.
so if he puts in a half-hearted effort for a couple minutes and nothing happens, he's off the hook.
Idiots. But I appreciate them lowering the bar. Then when the rest of us acutally put effort into this stuff it's transforms "minimal reciprocation" into "that was great!"
Is this a case where feminism can't raise its ugly head?
What about equality? As a male, I'm confused - at what point are you saying that the cab fare is payment he ought to pay for sex, or is it something else? This is not meant to give you trouble, but I would be hesitant to assume that you wanted "to be taken care of" and can fully understand a position where he would not so assume either. As far as orgasms go, ladies, well, you're on your own. For me, thirty years with the same georgeous woman, I'm in heaven and the issue doesn't even come up.
I realize you had an agenda and all, and feel you got something done, but you'll have to speak about this, when you're not sitting across the table from him, unless you let it go until you don't care.
Also: in a year of random NYC hookups, not one guy I dated handed me money for a cab. I think that would have made me feel like a whore. I took the approach of keeping them up all night so they had to let me stay until the sun came up and it was safe to go home. Seriously, I remember finishing with someone around three AM and then thinking, "If I keep this up until seven, I can catch a decent home!"
7: No, cab fare is not payment for sex. Cab fare is a nice thing he does for the woman he just had sex with to help her get home safely and comfortably because he is somewhat selfishly kicking her out and forcing her to go home late at night, instead of the next morning, when it's safer and the trains run more regularly. All the same would obtain if the genders were reversed.
Under all of the circumstances, some of which I chose not to elaborate on in the post, he knew very well I wanted to be taken care of.
I suppose it's the idea of having a particular person mentally filed away under "non-relationship sex" that seems complicated. Advanced planning doesn't really figure much into what I think of hooking up.
My friend Mark and I had a discussion about this once. He said that there were four possible rules for this:
1. The person who initiates the hookup pays.
2. The person who doesn't travel pays.
3. The person who decides not to have a sleepover pays.
4. The guy always pays.
Cab fare is a nice thing he does for the woman he just had sex with to help her get home safely and comfortably because he is somewhat selfishly kicking her out and forcing her to go home late at night, instead of the next morning, when it's safer and the trains run more regularly. All the same would obtain if the genders were reversed.
It's rude and inconsiderate, for sure.
In my experience situations like this usually arise when the person in question has never been in your position. I.e., never felt like $40 in cab fare was A Significant (Unanticipated) Expenditure.
It surprises me how many people don't have a social circle, in their adult life, that leads them to be able to make those kinds of compassionate imaginative leaps. I dunno, maybe having the social circle isn't the variable.
The flip side: the man I saw jogging this evening, who started whistling when he was about a block behind the lone other person (woman) on the dark street. Kept up his pace, didn't crowd her - I thought it was remarkably considerate.
The cab fare thing works like this: if you are the person staying home, and the other person is being kicked out into the night, you do not say, "do you need to go to an ATM?" You ask if the person has cash, and if they don't, you offer them some, so that they can get home more quickly b/c being kicked out into the night fucking sucks. And if you don't have any cash on you, you at least have the grace to apologize for that, and then perhaps you put some fucking pants on and walk *with* your friend to the ATM, since it's your neighborhood and you know where the goddamn things are.
I mean, really. Even if you *didn't* just fuck someone, wouldn't you do that?
I bet it's probably like Witt says, that he's so class-isolated he has no idea that a $40 cab might be a hardship for anyone. Even if they spent the whole night talking about Tia's skintness and his wealth, it may not have occurred to him at the right time, in which case, he's a fucking asshole and deserves rejection.
I've never had this experience before, because in all my New York sex having, which hasn't been that extensive, I've always been welcome to stay the night.
I read the post to say and want to believe the rejection has already been decided on, and she want the opportunity to do it explicitly. He ought to hear it whether or not he'll learn anything.
Well, I can see the possibility that he was broke himself for some reason--unexpected bills that month or whatever, tomorrow's payday, who knows--or that he wasn't sure what to do, or that he didn't want to embarrass you by seeming to treat you like a hooker ("hey babe, thanks! Here's $40"). But even so, you still make some kind of gesture at apologizing for the person having to fucking schlep home in the middle of the night. Or, like you said in the post, Tia, once it becomes clear that the cab thing ain't happening, you say, look, why don't you spend the night, and then you get up early the next morning, see the person to the door, and go back to bed.
Not making you welcome to spend the night is the inconsiderate thing here. Anyone who invites someone back to their house for sex should make their guest welcome to stay the night. Even a hook up should get the hookee a warm bed for the night and an offer of pop-tarts in the morning. Anything else is just rude. Anyone who is unwilling to do that at least shouldn't invite guests back to their home at all.
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
And if a hookup will not involve spending the night, that needs to be brought up pre-sex because it may change the equation on whether it's going to happen.
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is ....
I just knew you were gong to complete that sentence as "...he leaves the money on the night table in an envelope." I have nothing useful to contribute; it seems unimaginable that Tia doesn't get invited to stay.
First thing, since it's my only subway issue (I have far fewer reasons to consider safety-wise and I don't go to Brooklyn often enough to have really long rides): Did you have anything to read?
Okay. Fucking unacceptable. It would have been one thing if you had just said you were going to take the train and he let you, but the fact that you were like "yeah, let's put me into a cab" until he said "do you need to go to an ATM" makes it clear to him that you didn't want to pay for a cab. At that point, he should have ponied up. I don't care how much money he makes. If his precious sleep schedule dictates that he is kicking you out, he pays for the damn cab. That's the price of sleep.
At any rate, I think the "sleeping in" is lame. If you're going to have sex with someone, you let them stay the night. Period.
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
Agreed--but I'm kind of surprised to say that I've only met one or two men in my life who knew how to do this sort of thing. It's worth learning.
But basically I'm with the folks who say, booty call should definitely = offer to spend the night.
that he didn't want to embarrass you by seeming to treat you like a hooker
The following is repeated hearsay which I believe:
My friend meets this girl in a coffee shop. They make eyes at each other, talk, and go back to his place to have sex. They do, and then she realizes she left her pocketbook and cell phone at the coffee shop. He gives her money to take a cab there. She cries a bunch. He gathers that said crying was because she felt like was being paid for sex, I'm not sure how. He doesn't know how to deal with the issue. She leaves.
Story really happened to a friend; I'd admit if it were me.
But basically I'm with the folks who say, booty call should definitely = offer to spend the night.
Agreed. I'd say the best way to handle it is genuinely offer to let her spend the night and, if she declines, do the classy cab ride send off. Doesn't he realize that a bad hookup experience this time makes future hookups less likely? And future hookups with any of your friends less likely, too, as they will probably hear how he handled things indelicately?
Hell, even if you don't have sex, if it's late, there should be an offer. I had someone over a few weeks ago, and while there was some action, for complicated reasons (I like this phrase) there was no sex, but it was 3 am and he would have had to walk about .6 miles (because bus no longer running) to the train. So even though it would have been weird to sleep in the same bed with someone I wasn't having sex with, I invited him to stay over, and he thoughtfully offered to sleep on the futon, and he did and everything was fine.
Paul has it exactly right in 28. A sleep-over is expected. If for some reason (and sleeping in is not a sufficient reason), one cannot have a sleep-over, then payment for a cab is proper. Especially from the UWS to Park Slope (right?). I mean, the D isn't even running local this weekend. He's an asshole.
Does everyone agree with me that the other part of the hookup/sleepover rule is that the host must provide coffee in the morning? I had a guy once who didn't have any, and I damn well sat my ass on his couch until he came back with some from the local coffee shop.
Oh, and about the orgasm thing. Seriously, what is wrong with dudes? This same thing has happened to me on mutiple occasions.
some guys just assume that most women don't have them, or only have them with great difficulty
I think this is true for a lot of women, but it doesn't matter. The guy should put in a legitimate effort, because, hey, you know, even if there is no orgasm, those attempts at facilitating them feel good (as long as he's not a total idiot). I hate that men are so orgasm-centric that once you've had sex a few times and they haven't been able to get you off, they just stop even trying.
I have thought to myself that it would be an interesting experiment if I ever date again (though stories like Tia's make me wonder if I want to) to insist that the guy get me off, then promptly roll over and go to sleep. Or get up and get dressed. Or just make it clear somehow that the festivities were over. I wonder what the reaction would be.
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
Howabout driving her home? (Yes, at 4 am, done that repeatedly.) Is that allowed? I wouldn't put a female into a cab to ride alone. Not around here, anyways.
P.S. After reading this thread, I never want to have sex again.
max
['I think I'm just going to move to Antartica.']
I should be doing the work that I'm staying up to do, but I want to gripe about one other thing. You know what guys sometimes say that sort of irritates me, and that he said last night? "You have no idea how sexy you are." How the fuck do you know I have no idea? You've been giving me some idea for the past forty minutes or so. Sheesh.
Telling her over and over he wants to keep seeing her, and the "don't know how sexy you are" suggests he thinks he's trying. If so, that makes it a bit grimmer; if he were merely absurdly entitled, he wouldn't seem so clueless.
51 is so true. And really, if you don't have coffee, but you do have guests, stock some goddamn coffee in the freezer. If it's in an airtight container it won't go back that quickly. Or, you know, most cities have a fucking coffee shop like a block away where you can pick up a latte while your guest gets dressed/takes a shower. Because, people, you simply do not send someone out into the cold cruel world in a morning without some caffeine.
Also, running out of condoms is a bad idea, and will result in mockery.
Anything but "sexy." "Hot", "beautiful", whatever.
As for "you have no idea how sexy you are": how would you know exactly how sexy you are? All you know from his response is that he thinks you're sexy. But you probably don't know whether you're a 5 or a 10 on the sexy scale. Or an 11 out of 10.
69 and 74: crap, I meant to say that 62 was totally wrong.
What's lame about the statement is the person is telling you how you feel about yourself. That's obnoxious. Plus, (absent some actual knowledge that the woman in question does not think she's sexy) it's norm-shaping as to the notion that women have low self-esteem.
The colloquial meaning of that statement is "you are more sexy than you think you are." (I suppose it could also be "you are less sexy than you think you are," but I doubt anyone would use it in that way). I assert that the recipient of that comment has a much better idea of their own sexiness than any other person could.
I have no problem with the word "sexy," but shit, if you're going to try and and give a compliment, at least be specific. E.g. You have a sexy _______. Or, the way you _______ is sexy. Or, the way your ________ looks when _________ is sexy. Effort, man.
OTOH, the problem with the nomenclature rules is the number of people who get all freaked out and won't talk at all for fear of saying the wrong thing.
I think that part of the pre-hookup negotiations should be, "ok, so let's talk about verbiage. Which word do you prefer . . . ?"
Next time one of us hears that, should say "actually, yeah, I do."
I can see evaluating that attempted compliment negatively because it's not clever or it's clichéd. And I think if I said that I'd awkwardly add, "Actually, maybe you do know; I wanted to tell you anyway."* But I don't think I find compliments problematic when the person hasn't carefully considered their truth, as long as they're sincerely meant. Isn't that how everyone deals with them?
*As evidence that I'd say that, either immediately or slightly later, an anecdote about the ways of washerdreyer. I couple a weeks ago, I sent a girl I'm sort of interested in and have known for a long time a text saying, "I'm in your neighborhood, if you're around" (unnecesseary comma included for versimilitude). A little later I added, "Actually, I'm in your neighborhood whether or not you're around."
This is cute, ladies. I apologize to my brethren for letting the cat out of the bag, but the rest of "You have no idea how sexy you are..." is "...and neither do I, actually, because the only opinion that matters is that of my guy friends, and I won't be able to show them the film from the camera in the closet until tomorrow, so it's best that you leave before I get entangled in anything that's going to make them think less of me."
93: Yeah, but I think there are reasonable words to use in the absence of the discussion. Even though I don't really like the word "pussy," I wouldn't fault someone for using it. But if someone, were to say, say, "love-box," I would be startled.
What if the compliment were sincerely meant but was so disastrously wrong it indicated that the complimentor (or complimentrix) had just completely misapprehended you or that part of you h/s complimented?
I had a friend who referred to condoms as "party hats for the party."
Will not embarass said party by saying who, but yes, I've heard 'party hat' as a euphemism before, too.
"You have no idea how sexy you are", to me, has always come across as a compliment, with fun undertones of 'Wow! You can't know, because not only am I amazed just now at how attracted I am, but because if you did know how much power your perfect [ass, whatever] has over me, you couldn't be this non-chalant about it. You would use your powers for EVIL.' I never took it as implying I had low self-esteem. It's always the sort of compliment that comes as an aside because the light fell just right.
There is a joke I no longer remember, but which was popular at my junior high in the way that dirty jokes become popular among teenage boys, whose punchline resembles the last clause of 85.
115: I've thought about this a lot but have no real answer. It is interesting that so many people hate this word. "Underwear" is a perfectly serviceable word.
Also, almost everybody I know hates the word "moist." It makes my own skin crawl.
When does this "pussy / cunt" thing come up? What is this, 9-ball? Are the kids calling their shots nowadays?
When you're writing love letters to your inamorata/us and are including blue language you don't intend to be in the final draft, it's important to choose with just which words you'll express your secret longings so that, when said inamorata/us encounters your initial attempts, it will have just the right effect on him/her.
122: "You have a beautiful _____." "I love the way your _______ tastes." Q: "What do you want me to do while you masturbate?" A: "Put your fingers inside my _____." Etc.
109: I considered saying that, but as evidenced by the start of my comment (saying that compliments might be downgraded for being clichéd), I was mentioning what I took to be providing a general rule applicable in a majority of cases.
Still 109:
complimentrix
Can I enlist your support in my quest to re-title NYU L. Rev's Editor-in-Chief, who happens to be a woman, Editrix-in-Chief?
I actually also got the beautiful line from this guy. Maybe his fitting punishment will be having a blow by blow of our time together on an Unfogged comment thread.
138: ??? Why do you need to distinguish? "Are these yours?" "Nice underwear!" or "Pretty lingerie!" or "I can't find my underwear" or whatever--I mean, isn't the distinction always going to be clear in context??
But how do you distinguish between men's and women's underwear? And between bras and, um, y'see?
Bras are bras, underwear goes on your ass.
We don't need to distinguish between men's and women's underwear; we don't distinguish between men's and women's jeans or men's and women's socks, etc.
However, I really really hate the word "sexy" unless it's used to describe thesis topics or architecture or something like that.
Counterexample: In Sideways, Miles describes a red wine as sexy. I believe one of my roommates has also done this, but might be mistaken. Either way, it's annoying. I know the same roommate once said, referring to a pre-arranged table at a restaurant, "Why don't you make a rezzy for that?" I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." Also we're good friends and I'm a bad person for once again bad-mouthing him online.
I don't particularly like the use of "sexy" for thesis topics, but I do know a student who, in the presence of two professors, in a classroom situation, in commenting on another student's paper, used the following terms to say that the paper needed a longer introduction and conclusion: "not enough foreplay, and not enough cuddling."
The guy should put in a legitimate effort, because, hey, you know, even if there is no orgasm, those attempts at facilitating them feel good (as long as he's not a total idiot).
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
I hate that men are so orgasm-centric that once you've had sex a few times and they haven't been able to get you off, they just stop even trying.
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
Stuff and nonsense.
Why? Of course it would depend on what the woman was in it for, exactly, which would require saying what they were in it for, which would be all wrong because it would spoil the mood.
SB: And women—what's your cab policy with them?
Terminal ICBM ride from my personal Fortress of Darkness.
What's yours?
ash
['I really should changed my name back over.']
174: Indeed. I'd really rather just have sex without any arousal at all, to avoid frustration and failure. Go ahead, dear, I'll just watch tv while you finish up.
Seems to me a big part of the problem is that a lot of guys don't get that it's not a lot of women can't orgasm, it's that a lot of women can't orgasm solely with intercourse. So "attempts to facillitate" all too often involves more thrusting or a different position. Once that doesn't work they figure they triied everything.
More to the point, are there women or men who don't like their sex partners to be aroused? Because if there aren, I don't want to know them.
If it's interrupted before finishing, I generally wish it hadn't started at all.
That should be pretty easy to ensure, right? "Hey, baby, if you touch my cock, you better finish me off, or else don't bother," would pretty much take care of it, I'd think.
That should be pretty easy to ensure, right? "Hey, baby, if you touch my cock, you better finish me off, or else don't bother," would pretty much take care of it, I'd think.
No one would actually say that, it would be intimidating. But the frustration does exist. What's wrong with admitting that?
Along with, "show/tell me how you like to be touched" or "show/tell me how to make you come" or "show/tell me what feels good" and so on, and so on, and so on.
Unless I am looking in entirely the wrong chapter, Burke's Manual of Etiquette and Protocol is completely silent on both these crucial questions. I swear to god that fucking book is completely useless.
"I'd said when we went back to his place that I either had to leave that night or early the next morning"
That's often code for 'I do not want to stay the night'. I don't think the guy is necessarily a prick for not leaping to pay for cab fare. I'm not even sure it's something that I think he *ought* to have done -- being able to find their own way home being something that adults are generally expected to be able to do. And walking you to the underground station suggests he's not a total dick re: the taxi.
However, the not-caring-about-the-orgasm thing = teh shitty.
wow. given the tenor of this conversation, i'd like to point out that lots of women won't come the first time because they're getting used to you.
this would be true of me. but once comfortable, some of us are disappointed if they don't come twice fairly regularly - not every time, but pretty often. and three times is not unknown, though not expected, and much appreciated. so no more of this "women generally don't come" stuff.
(yes, obviously, the process of getting close can be great even if orgasm doesn't happen...sometimes that is what you are in the mood for instead anyway...)
(and finally, along with silvana, i have also totally come and then rolled over and fallen asleep w/o reciprocation...but that's what happens when you wake a person up in the middle of the night, bah humbug. :) )
Way back in 78: Or, you know, most cities have a fucking coffee shop like a block away
There actually is a coffee shop two blocks away from my house in Weinerville, because I decided to live in the neighborhood that has stores you can walk to, but I bet in most of Lubbock you'd have to drive to get coffee. Which under the circumstances you should. Welcome to suburbia.
Oh yes, and there are those who have orgasm taxonomies and get decidely grumpy if they have a mere 2 or 3 orgasms and none of them are full on 'Krakatoa' ones.
Are all women happy when their sex partners arouse them but don't bring them to orgasm?
Maybe men and women are wired differently, but to me, this is like saying "I won't go to the three-star restaurant at all unless I can be guaranteed dessert." It's better if you can get dessert, of course, if there's no dessert, it's still worthwhile.
In any case, it's better to be aroused and eventually less than satisfied than not aroused at all. Um, that sorta hurts. ('But at least there's no failure! Ow.')
I can certainly think of one friend of my acquaintance who claims never to have had an orgasm. She likes sex, has had lots of experience, has no hang-ups, and is adamant that her sex life is generally pretty good.
The fact that some people can certainly enjoy sex without orgasm, some or even all of the time is not the same thing as being capable of having an orgasm but having a partner who is too lazy to bother, though.
oh come now, you're exaggerating everything out of context.
i just think it's funny when the default/implicit assumption is "women tend not to get orgasms."
and to 210: there are probably lots of women who have never had orgasms. usually they are youngish. because it takes a while to figure out what turns you on and how to turn yourself on when you're a women...it can take a couple of years. i'm sure she enjoys it - those states are enjoyable too. but, give your friend time!
The person described in 210 is in her mid-30s and been having sex for the best part of 20 years -- so not really that youngish or inexperienced. She claims to enjoy it a great deal, just not to have actual orgasms.
To come in way, way late: first, the guy sounds awful. I'm having a hard time even visualizing sex that didn't incorporate some effort toward facilitating an orgasm for you -- what was he doing, asking you to lie still and think of England? (Not an actual request for information. I am reminded of a story I heard ages ago of a friend of a friend dating a guy who appeared to have a necrophilia thing -- he'd ask her to take a cold bath first and lie very still.)
On the cab thing, I'd call the offense the lack of an invitation to spend the night (which strikes me as pretty severe. I don't care if it's inconvenient, if you have sex with someone they should be sleeping over). Not paying for the cab? Eh, you didn't ask. If you can't afford the cab and you have safety or comfort issues about the train, you either ask to stay over because you can't afford a cab and don't want to be on the subway at night, or ask to borrow cab fare. You're never entitled to be pissed off at someone because they didn't give you stuff.
Not giving you orgasms, or at least making a solid effort in that direction? That you can be pissed off about.
And on the "you have no idea how sexy you are" thing: It can come off like Cala said as a pleasant compliment, something along the lines of "If you realized how devastating you were, you'd be incredibly vain and you aren't. You must just not know the effect you have." (This isn't exactly it, but something like that.)
It can also come off as "Heh, heh. Let me awaken you, my naive and innocent little flower." WHich is gross.
you know, pleasant things are great, but occasionally having really intense experiences is something i wouldn't want missing from my life.
also, i will just point out in 206: when the quantity of orgasms increases, the quality also increases/changes. so that last phrase in 206 isn't really applicable.
That's often code for 'I do not want to stay the night'.
Whether or not that's true, there's no sane reason not to ask, just in case you've misunderstood their meaning, or their mind has changed now that their snuggled into bed. It any case, it's irrelevant; I know that's not what he understood me to mean. Further, the very statement "Let's put you into a cab," if it doesn't mean, "I'm giving you cab fare," is rude and presumptuous--at the very least it should be, "How are you going to get home?" because he should not be assuming I have the money to pay a large cab fare. And finally, there are lots of things that adults can do, but in certain situations should not be obligated to do. I should not have been obligated to go home on the train.
To me "Let's put you in a cab" sounds like an offer, in part because of the tradition mentioned above of paying someone's cab fare. This might be a little skewed by never living anywhere you can hail a cab on the street.
But I agree that he should have offered to let Tia stay over. How hard can it be to get back to sleep?
In re finding your way home as something adults are expected to do, I've occasionally had to take a long subway ride in New York late at night (not for this reason), and it can be a real pain in the ass. I expect it's much more convenient and pleasant in the morning.
well, some ppl find falling asleep in the same bed more intimate than having sex.
but that said, i agree, there is no turning people out into the night at very late hours. i hope that's the last you see of him, at least in this context.
He just sounds selfish. The cab fare thing might be excusable; if his normal social circle is full of people who normally have the cash for it. But the whole 'tomorrow is my day to sleep in' plus the lack of interest in Tia's orgasm just means that he doesn't seem to have any interest beyond himself. Sex, check. Ability to sleep in tomorrow, check.
Further, the very statement "Let's put you into a cab," if it doesn't mean, "I'm giving you cab fare," is rude and presumptuous--at the very least it should be, "How are you going to get home?" because he should not be assuming I have the money to pay a large cab fare.
No, you were being presumptuous in assuming that he was going to give you money. If you weren't presuming, you would have said "Oh, I can't afford a cab home from here," and followed with your choice of (a) "I'm going to take the train"; (b) "I'm not comfortable taking the train, mind if I stay? I'll try not to wake you up when I leave in the morning," or (c) "Can I borrow $40 for the cab?" (I admit that I'd expect any of those to elicit an apologetic either "Please stay," or "Oh, heavens no, I'll pay for the cab.")
But he's really not responsible for knowing that you can't get yourself home under your own power in a way that makes you happy if you don't ask him for help.
sex that didn't incorporate some effort toward facilitating an orgasm for you
While he had an erection, he did things that were designed to arouse me. When he did not, he rolled over and snoozed basically.
You're never entitled to be pissed off at someone because they didn't give you stuff.
This is just wrong. The world is full of situations in which there are conventions and implicatures and understandings that construct obligations, in which you aren't supposed to have to state certain things explicitly. If you are polite and don't ask for something that isn't freely offered, it doesn't mean that you can't be pissed because it should have been. After all, I didn't ask for an orgasm either, so why is it his fault he didn't offer to try? To recapitulate a previous discussion, if he had invited me to a fancy restaurant I couldn't pay for, then made no move to take care of the bill when it came, and I had politely paid my half of the check, I would have been totally justified in being pissed. Whether or not you personally would prefer things to be more direct, that's not the way a lot of the world works, and socially intelligent people are supposed to understand what they should do to make another person feel comfortable without the other person having to request everything. It's being a good host.
The world is full of situations in which there are conventions and implicatures and understandings that construct obligations, in which you aren't supposed to have to state certain things explicitly. If you are polite and don't ask for something that isn't freely offered, it doesn't mean that you can't be pissed because it should have been.
The problem is that your sense of the conventions and implicatures is not universal -- it's local to your social group. If you have expectations of this sort, you're going to spend a large part of your life unreasonably pissed off at people because their sense of conventions and implicatures was formed outside of your social circle. Expecting people to know what you want when you don't say it limits your capacity to successfully interact with people to your own social group.
"Sexy" is a great word, but should be served with a side of profanity ("You are so fucking sexy").
Then there's the eternal "pussy" v. "cunt" question. I prefer "cunt".
This is so wrong. "Pussy" is beautiful and naughty.
And no condoms does not result in a kid. It results in no sex.
!!!
In my world, it just results in no penetration. There's a whole cornucopia of delights.
"Panties" is terrible.
You may also have kids with Joe D.
It would all come crashing down when I whisper that she has a sexy pussy.
Tia, don't get discouraged! This is New York! You'll never find a dating pool of more sexually enlightened men! And I'm not just speaking of myself here!
Our social groups are easily similar enough that he had plenty of information to be able to project himself into my situation and think about what would make me feel comfortable. He is not some alien creature who doesn't have the experience to understand that I might like to stay in one bed for the night, and that it would be polite to offer. Nor is the concept that it's hard to get home at night from one borough to another in New York City on the train foreign to him; I'm quite sure. The fact that he didn't make an effort to ideally, invite me to stay, or second best, make sure I went home in a cab, speaks poorly for his consideration.
I have considered this matter carefully and I now think that in the circumstances, you should send him an invoice for $40, with a small note included making it clear that the invoice is not for the cab.
He is not some alien creature who doesn't have the experience to understand that I might like to stay in one bed for the night, and that it would be polite to offer.
It seems to me that a lot of arguments between feminists, here and elsewhere, break down at the same point: some people are arguing about what should happen in an ideal world, others what should happen in this less than ideal one.
I think it's a bit disingenous to say, as Tia does, that it's a gender-neutral situation, that a woman would give a guy cab fare if pushing him out in the middle of the night. I have trouble imagining this happening. You can have gender-neutral consideration for the person, as b suggests, for instance walking someone to an ATM. But cab fare has an extra layer of the gentlemanly; it just does. This does not, however, make it totally incompatible with contemporary mores, because there is still some income inequality between men and women generally--residual expectations carrying along with that--and there is some extra concern for a woman traveling in the middle of the night. It seems the way to correct this is by addressing income inequality and safety issues as much as possible, at a general level, rather than punishing the individual woman going home in the middle of the night for whom cab fare is a hardship.
Possibly, as dsquared suggests well above, there are no real rules covering these situations. Or there are different sets of rules for different types of relationships, and the set that is acceptable to you defines the type of relationship you want. I'm surprised that he didn't invite Tia to stay (I'm a little surprised that the norm isn't at least a little food in the morning), but there are lots of different types of relationships, and I'm willing to believe that there are some in which you're allowed to kick the other person out after finishing off.
Same sort of thing with the cab. I think I'd be offended by the idea that I was obliged to provide cab fare by some set of pseudo-Victorian rules. OTOH, I generally believe that people often ought to pay equivalent costs, as measured by the marginal utility of the relevant amounts of cash; if you've got significantly more cash, and unless you're feeling worked, you should pick up more of the checks, whether sex is involved or not.
I was clearly stuck working overtime in the shark tank and missed the previous subtext that allowed for 200 comments without mentioning this:
"As I was saying, Graham declared that we could not see each other for four weeks after we wound up seeing each other twice in a weekend."
Because, that seems wrong in and of itself.
Having said that, "you have no idea how..." is really a way of expressing the pleasure one is drawing. It starts with the assumption that we can never really know what is going on in other people. And it isn't only men who say this sort of thing. Although perhaps it was only said to me because I'm particularly bound by the hermeneutic circle and hence completely clueless.
As for taxis and coffee, some people are genuinely clueless and carelss. But some get off on seeing how far they can take someone for granted when a good thing comes their way. In which case there is an implicit cruelty. I don't want to tell you to run away or anything, but it is a theory that fits the facts.
I agree that social conventions make it more likely that a woman would expect cab fare than the other way around; however, if I had woman whose income way outstripped my date's, I would offer. The one time I have been in anything like this situation was in college, when I had some money and my boyfriend had literally none. I bought us groceries, sometimes paid for restaurant meals, etc.
As I was saying, Graham declared that we could not see each other for four weeks after we wound up seeing each other twice in a weekend.
I agree heartily that on the face of it, in the absence of fairly heavy extenuating circumstances, this does carry rather an impression of having something of the twat about it.
I see what you mean about restaurants and stuff--but it still seems to that cab fare has a particularly gendered association, because money meets safety concerns there.
I'm just saying that whatever the larger social situation, I'm not expecting something because he's a man and I'm a woman, since I, personally, would do the same thing were the circumstances reversed, whatever other women would be likely to do, or other men would be likely to accept.
243 - I'd missed exactly what Matt posted in 245. It makes perfect sense now. Without knowing that, it seemed a little bit like an odd structure to the relationship. (Although, Madre de Dios, a lot less odd than 214). But now it all makes sense.
247: What he did was wrong because he failed to consider my situation individually. The "conventions" part was that I should not have to say, "Can I please sleep over?" because it should be offered, and if it's not, for some reason, the host should make a big effort to make sure their date gets home safe.
On cliched compliments, does anyone find the phrase "your skin is so soft," annoying?
I may be being unreasonable on this one, but it always reminds me of a particular date. I remember hooking up (no sex) with a guy that I hadn't seen in a long time and knew kind of casually from college. We went to a
party first, and I think that he might have been sort of showing me off to some friends. (I'm not gorgeous or anything, but I'm reaasonably cute/pretty/attractive, and he wasn't exactly hott, all of which is just a roundabout way of saying that, under the circumstances, I could have been a trophy date.. He wasn't really my type; he was very smart but also insecure. I was fairly "easy to talk to"about some personal stuff. The hooking up only really happened, because I was pretty drunk. The whole thing from the pre-date coffee date on felt as though he'd read some book on how to get girls and was following its prescriptions. "Your skin is so soft" sounded like it was one of the compliment options provided forthose with asperger's who needed rigid rules to follow. Maybe it's an acceptable option, but I find it a bit creepy.
Oh, wow. What a charmer this gentleman was.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:10 PM
I admit that I'm naive as to the ways of the world, but the logistics of this arrangement seem needlessly complicated. Also, isn't "pay for her cab" sort of a standard thing for the guy to do?
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:13 PM
Good lord.
With the orgasm thing, I think some guys just assume that most women don't have them, or only have them with great difficulty, so if he puts in a half-hearted effort for a couple minutes and nothing happens, he's off the hook.
Argh.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:18 PM
What seems complicated?
I wouldn't expect someone who wasn't as financially comfortable to pay for my cab fare, actually. I don't know what's standard.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:19 PM
Inconsiderate.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:23 PM
so if he puts in a half-hearted effort for a couple minutes and nothing happens, he's off the hook.
Idiots. But I appreciate them lowering the bar. Then when the rest of us acutally put effort into this stuff it's transforms "minimal reciprocation" into "that was great!"
Bwaahahahahahaha.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:29 PM
Is this a case where feminism can't raise its ugly head?
What about equality? As a male, I'm confused - at what point are you saying that the cab fare is payment he ought to pay for sex, or is it something else? This is not meant to give you trouble, but I would be hesitant to assume that you wanted "to be taken care of" and can fully understand a position where he would not so assume either. As far as orgasms go, ladies, well, you're on your own. For me, thirty years with the same georgeous woman, I'm in heaven and the issue doesn't even come up.
Posted by grackel | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:29 PM
I realize you had an agenda and all, and feel you got something done, but you'll have to speak about this, when you're not sitting across the table from him, unless you let it go until you don't care.
Let's hope there's somebody else before that.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:30 PM
I guess he only pays for orgasms. If you don't come, he don't pay. You gotta make with the screams if you wants the greens.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:30 PM
Also: in a year of random NYC hookups, not one guy I dated handed me money for a cab. I think that would have made me feel like a whore. I took the approach of keeping them up all night so they had to let me stay until the sun came up and it was safe to go home. Seriously, I remember finishing with someone around three AM and then thinking, "If I keep this up until seven, I can catch a decent home!"
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:33 PM
that was supposed to be "a decent train home"
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:34 PM
You gotta make with the screams if you wants the greens.
Awesome. You should comment drunk more often.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:35 PM
7: No, cab fare is not payment for sex. Cab fare is a nice thing he does for the woman he just had sex with to help her get home safely and comfortably because he is somewhat selfishly kicking her out and forcing her to go home late at night, instead of the next morning, when it's safer and the trains run more regularly. All the same would obtain if the genders were reversed.
Under all of the circumstances, some of which I chose not to elaborate on in the post, he knew very well I wanted to be taken care of.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:36 PM
Oh, God. It was Drink-All-Day Day.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:36 PM
I suppose it's the idea of having a particular person mentally filed away under "non-relationship sex" that seems complicated. Advanced planning doesn't really figure much into what I think of hooking up.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:41 PM
I almost forgot: Congrats on the nongrahamular sex!
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:47 PM
My friend Mark and I had a discussion about this once. He said that there were four possible rules for this:
1. The person who initiates the hookup pays.
2. The person who doesn't travel pays.
3. The person who decides not to have a sleepover pays.
4. The guy always pays.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:53 PM
Cab fare is a nice thing he does for the woman he just had sex with to help her get home safely and comfortably because he is somewhat selfishly kicking her out and forcing her to go home late at night, instead of the next morning, when it's safer and the trains run more regularly. All the same would obtain if the genders were reversed.
It's rude and inconsiderate, for sure.
In my experience situations like this usually arise when the person in question has never been in your position. I.e., never felt like $40 in cab fare was A Significant (Unanticipated) Expenditure.
It surprises me how many people don't have a social circle, in their adult life, that leads them to be able to make those kinds of compassionate imaginative leaps. I dunno, maybe having the social circle isn't the variable.
The flip side: the man I saw jogging this evening, who started whistling when he was about a block behind the lone other person (woman) on the dark street. Kept up his pace, didn't crowd her - I thought it was remarkably considerate.
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:54 PM
The cab fare thing works like this: if you are the person staying home, and the other person is being kicked out into the night, you do not say, "do you need to go to an ATM?" You ask if the person has cash, and if they don't, you offer them some, so that they can get home more quickly b/c being kicked out into the night fucking sucks. And if you don't have any cash on you, you at least have the grace to apologize for that, and then perhaps you put some fucking pants on and walk *with* your friend to the ATM, since it's your neighborhood and you know where the goddamn things are.
I mean, really. Even if you *didn't* just fuck someone, wouldn't you do that?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 8:59 PM
You gotta make with the screams if you wants the greens.
Agree with Wolfson--that's a great line.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:03 PM
For the record, he did walk with me to the subway.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:04 PM
All right, that mitigates slightly, but still. Jeez.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:05 PM
I bet it's probably like Witt says, that he's so class-isolated he has no idea that a $40 cab might be a hardship for anyone. Even if they spent the whole night talking about Tia's skintness and his wealth, it may not have occurred to him at the right time, in which case, he's a fucking asshole and deserves rejection.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:05 PM
well yeah. I think he should have paid my fare.
I've never had this experience before, because in all my New York sex having, which hasn't been that extensive, I've always been welcome to stay the night.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:07 PM
24 to 22.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:09 PM
I read the post to say and want to believe the rejection has already been decided on, and she want the opportunity to do it explicitly. He ought to hear it whether or not he'll learn anything.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:10 PM
Well, I can see the possibility that he was broke himself for some reason--unexpected bills that month or whatever, tomorrow's payday, who knows--or that he wasn't sure what to do, or that he didn't want to embarrass you by seeming to treat you like a hooker ("hey babe, thanks! Here's $40"). But even so, you still make some kind of gesture at apologizing for the person having to fucking schlep home in the middle of the night. Or, like you said in the post, Tia, once it becomes clear that the cab thing ain't happening, you say, look, why don't you spend the night, and then you get up early the next morning, see the person to the door, and go back to bed.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:13 PM
Not making you welcome to spend the night is the inconsiderate thing here. Anyone who invites someone back to their house for sex should make their guest welcome to stay the night. Even a hook up should get the hookee a warm bed for the night and an offer of pop-tarts in the morning. Anything else is just rude. Anyone who is unwilling to do that at least shouldn't invite guests back to their home at all.
Posted by Paul | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:22 PM
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
And if a hookup will not involve spending the night, that needs to be brought up pre-sex because it may change the equation on whether it's going to happen.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:23 PM
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is ....
I just knew you were gong to complete that sentence as "...he leaves the money on the night table in an envelope." I have nothing useful to contribute; it seems unimaginable that Tia doesn't get invited to stay.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:29 PM
First thing, since it's my only subway issue (I have far fewer reasons to consider safety-wise and I don't go to Brooklyn often enough to have really long rides): Did you have anything to read?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:29 PM
I blame abstinence-only education.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:30 PM
Okay. Fucking unacceptable. It would have been one thing if you had just said you were going to take the train and he let you, but the fact that you were like "yeah, let's put me into a cab" until he said "do you need to go to an ATM" makes it clear to him that you didn't want to pay for a cab. At that point, he should have ponied up. I don't care how much money he makes. If his precious sleep schedule dictates that he is kicking you out, he pays for the damn cab. That's the price of sleep.
At any rate, I think the "sleeping in" is lame. If you're going to have sex with someone, you let them stay the night. Period.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:32 PM
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
Agreed--but I'm kind of surprised to say that I've only met one or two men in my life who knew how to do this sort of thing. It's worth learning.
But basically I'm with the folks who say, booty call should definitely = offer to spend the night.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:36 PM
that he didn't want to embarrass you by seeming to treat you like a hooker
The following is repeated hearsay which I believe:
My friend meets this girl in a coffee shop. They make eyes at each other, talk, and go back to his place to have sex. They do, and then she realizes she left her pocketbook and cell phone at the coffee shop. He gives her money to take a cab there. She cries a bunch. He gathers that said crying was because she felt like was being paid for sex, I'm not sure how. He doesn't know how to deal with the issue. She leaves.
Story really happened to a friend; I'd admit if it were me.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:38 PM
But basically I'm with the folks who say, booty call should definitely = offer to spend the night.
Agreed. I'd say the best way to handle it is genuinely offer to let her spend the night and, if she declines, do the classy cab ride send off. Doesn't he realize that a bad hookup experience this time makes future hookups less likely? And future hookups with any of your friends less likely, too, as they will probably hear how he handled things indelicately?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:41 PM
Hell, even if you don't have sex, if it's late, there should be an offer. I had someone over a few weeks ago, and while there was some action, for complicated reasons (I like this phrase) there was no sex, but it was 3 am and he would have had to walk about .6 miles (because bus no longer running) to the train. So even though it would have been weird to sleep in the same bed with someone I wasn't having sex with, I invited him to stay over, and he thoughtfully offered to sleep on the futon, and he did and everything was fine.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:41 PM
Paul has it exactly right in 28. A sleep-over is expected. If for some reason (and sleeping in is not a sufficient reason), one cannot have a sleep-over, then payment for a cab is proper. Especially from the UWS to Park Slope (right?). I mean, the D isn't even running local this weekend. He's an asshole.
Posted by Doug | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:44 PM
"She told me she worked in the morning and started to laugh,
I said I didn't and crawled off to sleep in the bath..."
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:47 PM
Does everyone agree with me that the other part of the hookup/sleepover rule is that the host must provide coffee in the morning? I had a guy once who didn't have any, and I damn well sat my ass on his couch until he came back with some from the local coffee shop.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:48 PM
39: "said" s/b "told her"
(Just sayin'.)
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:49 PM
Oh, and about the orgasm thing. Seriously, what is wrong with dudes? This same thing has happened to me on mutiple occasions.
some guys just assume that most women don't have them, or only have them with great difficulty
I think this is true for a lot of women, but it doesn't matter. The guy should put in a legitimate effort, because, hey, you know, even if there is no orgasm, those attempts at facilitating them feel good (as long as he's not a total idiot). I hate that men are so orgasm-centric that once you've had sex a few times and they haven't been able to get you off, they just stop even trying.
I say legitimate effort required. Every time.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:50 PM
Bphd, that's an excellent rule.
Posted by Doug | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:51 PM
Note to self: buy coffee.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:51 PM
40: Or at least money for coffee.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:53 PM
40: What if the host is not a coffee drinker?
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:54 PM
40: What if the host is not a coffee drinker?
Apparently the host is obligated to go to a coffee shop.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:55 PM
I think they are obligated to go to a coffee shop on a weekend day. On a weekday, well, that may be asking too much.
IMO.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:57 PM
This is where living in NYC rules. You can get coffee and pancakes delivered.
Also, no sleepover means no possibility for morning sex. So, really, not extending the offer is just cheating yourself.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:57 PM
42: Word.
I have thought to myself that it would be an interesting experiment if I ever date again (though stories like Tia's make me wonder if I want to) to insist that the guy get me off, then promptly roll over and go to sleep. Or get up and get dressed. Or just make it clear somehow that the festivities were over. I wonder what the reaction would be.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:58 PM
Furthermore, the coffee should either be espresso, or brewed using approximately 2 tablespoons grounds per 6 ounces filtered water.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:58 PM
49: Depends on how last night was, doesn't it?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:58 PM
The way one of my friends handles the "don't make her feel like a hooker" thing is walk down, put her in the cab, and pay the driver directly for what the likely fare is going to be (which probably does involve slightly overpaying to be on the safe side).
Howabout driving her home? (Yes, at 4 am, done that repeatedly.) Is that allowed? I wouldn't put a female into a cab to ride alone. Not around here, anyways.
P.S. After reading this thread, I never want to have sex again.
max
['I think I'm just going to move to Antartica.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 9:58 PM
insist that the guy get me off, then promptly roll over and go to sleep
I've done this. The reaction was a little perplexed, but hey, he wanted to see me again.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:02 PM
I don't know how a reaction can be perplexed. What I mean is, his reaction was to be perplexed.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:04 PM
I should be doing the work that I'm staying up to do, but I want to gripe about one other thing. You know what guys sometimes say that sort of irritates me, and that he said last night? "You have no idea how sexy you are." How the fuck do you know I have no idea? You've been giving me some idea for the past forty minutes or so. Sheesh.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:08 PM
the festivities
This is a good euphemism.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:08 PM
You have no idea how sexy you are
You know, I never realized how lame that is. That's fucking stupid! Next time one of us hears that, should say "actually, yeah, I do."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:14 PM
You know, I never realized how lame that is. That's fucking stupid! Next time one of us hears that, should say "actually, yeah, I do."
Cripes, y'all are tough.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:15 PM
Telling her over and over he wants to keep seeing her, and the "don't know how sexy you are" suggests he thinks he's trying. If so, that makes it a bit grimmer; if he were merely absurdly entitled, he wouldn't seem so clueless.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:17 PM
As a male, I'm confused
It's just a phase.
I wouldn't put a female into a cab to ride alone.
And women—what's your cab policy with them?
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:17 PM
"You have no idea how sexy you are." How the fuck do you know I have no idea?
You have an intellectual idea, but you don't know it from the inside. So to speak. Read this (which I haven't read) and get back to me.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:18 PM
Actually, that phrase doesn't bother me. It just seems like a throwaway compliment.
However, I really really hate the word "sexy" unless it's used to describe thesis topics or architecture or something like that.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:18 PM
Next Tia will claim she knows what it's like to be a bat because she's seen one flying around.
Honestly!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:19 PM
Suppose it's phrased as a question?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:21 PM
This is a good euphemism.
I had a friend who referred to condoms as "party hats for the party." I don't know whether he made it up or not.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:23 PM
You have no idea how sexy you are? but if you ask me? you're pretty hot?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:24 PM
Suppose it's phrased as a question?
What, like, "You have no idea how sexy you are? Well I do, and you are damn sexy."?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:24 PM
63 is totally wrong.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:24 PM
Ben Wolfson, on the other hand, is not sexy at all.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:25 PM
first word: do
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:26 PM
"Do you know how sexy you are?" would be fine. I just don't like someone trying to cast me into some ingenue role.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:26 PM
67 & 68 are also wrong.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:27 PM
69: You mean because it's always earnestly meant? Agree with DA on the use of "sexy."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:28 PM
Guy: Do you know how sexy you are?
Tia: Why yes, yes I do.
Guy: Okay, just checking.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:29 PM
Wait, what's wrong with "sexy"? What are they supposed to say about how you look?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:30 PM
68 is a question, so I'm not sure how it could be wrong. 67, of course, is totally wrong.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:30 PM
51 is so true. And really, if you don't have coffee, but you do have guests, stock some goddamn coffee in the freezer. If it's in an airtight container it won't go back that quickly. Or, you know, most cities have a fucking coffee shop like a block away where you can pick up a latte while your guest gets dressed/takes a shower. Because, people, you simply do not send someone out into the cold cruel world in a morning without some caffeine.
Also, running out of condoms is a bad idea, and will result in mockery.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:30 PM
So many rules!
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:32 PM
Also, running out of condoms is a bad idea, and will result in mockery.
What if your ejaculate is just that copious?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:32 PM
Also, running out of condoms is a bad idea, and will result in mockery.
Or a kid.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:33 PM
What are they supposed to say about how you look?
Anything but "sexy." "Hot", "beautiful", whatever.
As for "you have no idea how sexy you are": how would you know exactly how sexy you are? All you know from his response is that he thinks you're sexy. But you probably don't know whether you're a 5 or a 10 on the sexy scale. Or an 11 out of 10.
So it's a fair statement.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:34 PM
Kids mock, eventually.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:34 PM
To me, "sexy" is like "classy"; only appropriate when used by Ron Burgandy
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:36 PM
Then there's the eternal "pussy" v. "cunt" question. I prefer "cunt".
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:36 PM
69 and 74: crap, I meant to say that 62 was totally wrong.
What's lame about the statement is the person is telling you how you feel about yourself. That's obnoxious. Plus, (absent some actual knowledge that the woman in question does not think she's sexy) it's norm-shaping as to the notion that women have low self-esteem.
The colloquial meaning of that statement is "you are more sexy than you think you are." (I suppose it could also be "you are less sexy than you think you are," but I doubt anyone would use it in that way). I assert that the recipient of that comment has a much better idea of their own sexiness than any other person could.
I have no problem with the word "sexy," but shit, if you're going to try and and give a compliment, at least be specific. E.g. You have a sexy _______. Or, the way you _______ is sexy. Or, the way your ________ looks when _________ is sexy. Effort, man.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:36 PM
Ben Wolfson, on the other hand, is not sexy at all.
Lies! Ben is teh sexiest!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:36 PM
I knew a guy who used to say things like, "my god, you're so sexy." I didn't mind.
And no condoms does not result in a kid. It results in no sex.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:36 PM
87 - Yes, Ben. All the boys at the Mineshaft think so.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:38 PM
And as long as we're talking about nomenclature, no body part should ever, ever be referred to as "nips."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:39 PM
90: What about "nibblets"?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:40 PM
No one said anything about no condoms, B.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:40 PM
OTOH, the problem with the nomenclature rules is the number of people who get all freaked out and won't talk at all for fear of saying the wrong thing.
I think that part of the pre-hookup negotiations should be, "ok, so let's talk about verbiage. Which word do you prefer . . . ?"
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:40 PM
E.g. You have a sexy _______. Or, the way you _______ is sexy. Or, the way your ________ looks when _________ is sexy.
sex / sex / sex / sexing
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:41 PM
Once you run out, you have no condoms, Teo.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:41 PM
69 and 74: crap, I meant to say that 62 was totally wrong.
I think it's probably true that Tia doesn't have the same subjective experience of her sexiness that the dude does.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:41 PM
Jesus, not more rules.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:41 PM
95: Go back and look at 80 and 81 again.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:43 PM
85: given a choice between "cunt" and "pussy", I'll take "cunt". But how about "fluffy sausage wallet"?
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:43 PM
I think that part of the pre-hookup negotiations should be, "ok, so let's talk about verbiage. Which word do you prefer . . . ?"
You could probably fit the "what sort of compliments do you prefer" issue in there, somewhere.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:43 PM
99: No.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:44 PM
(97 to 93, by the way. In case anyone was wondering.)
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:44 PM
"You have no idea how sexy you are."
Next time one of us hears that, should say "actually, yeah, I do."
I can see evaluating that attempted compliment negatively because it's not clever or it's clichéd. And I think if I said that I'd awkwardly add, "Actually, maybe you do know; I wanted to tell you anyway."* But I don't think I find compliments problematic when the person hasn't carefully considered their truth, as long as they're sincerely meant. Isn't that how everyone deals with them?
*As evidence that I'd say that, either immediately or slightly later, an anecdote about the ways of washerdreyer. I couple a weeks ago, I sent a girl I'm sort of interested in and have known for a long time a text saying, "I'm in your neighborhood, if you're around" (unnecesseary comma included for versimilitude). A little later I added, "Actually, I'm in your neighborhood whether or not you're around."
[On preview, I've fallen way behind.]
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:44 PM
given a choice between "cunt" and "pussy", I'll take "cunt".
That's actually pretty surprising to me; I'd always thought that...the latter word was the worst one could use.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:45 PM
This is cute, ladies. I apologize to my brethren for letting the cat out of the bag, but the rest of "You have no idea how sexy you are..." is "...and neither do I, actually, because the only opinion that matters is that of my guy friends, and I won't be able to show them the film from the camera in the closet until tomorrow, so it's best that you leave before I get entangled in anything that's going to make them think less of me."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:45 PM
I prefer both "cunt" and "pussy" to "voted for Rudy Giuliani".
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:45 PM
93: Yeah, but I think there are reasonable words to use in the absence of the discussion. Even though I don't really like the word "pussy," I wouldn't fault someone for using it. But if someone, were to say, say, "love-box," I would be startled.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:46 PM
105: Cancer has made you bitter, my friend.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:46 PM
Isn't that how everyone deals with them?
What if the compliment were sincerely meant but was so disastrously wrong it indicated that the complimentor (or complimentrix) had just completely misapprehended you or that part of you h/s complimented?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
103 - You should have totally sent another followup text explaining the concept of a biscuit conditional.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
104: I hate "pussy" even more than I hate "sexy."
And don't get me started on "panties."
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
Ogged! You have no idea how sexy you are!
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
And really, if you don't have coffee, but you do have guests, stock some goddamn coffee in the freezer.
And have a french press.
Abstaining from coffee is dangerous and wrong headed.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
Washerdreyer, rocking the biscuit conditionals. Now that's sexy.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:47 PM
And don't get me started on "panties."
What is it about "panties" that makes so many women hate the term?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:49 PM
Yeah, good coffee + french press = return visits.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:49 PM
Pussy > Cunt
Also hate the word "panties" for being too precious.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:49 PM
And don't get me started on "panties."
Lovin' DA today. You may also have kids with Joe D.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:50 PM
I had a friend who referred to condoms as "party hats for the party."
Will not embarass said party by saying who, but yes, I've heard 'party hat' as a euphemism before, too.
"You have no idea how sexy you are", to me, has always come across as a compliment, with fun undertones of 'Wow! You can't know, because not only am I amazed just now at how attracted I am, but because if you did know how much power your perfect [ass, whatever] has over me, you couldn't be this non-chalant about it. You would use your powers for EVIL.' I never took it as implying I had low self-esteem. It's always the sort of compliment that comes as an aside because the light fell just right.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:50 PM
115: It's just icky. It sounds like something Humbert Humbert would say. I think it's the diminutive.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:50 PM
it's the diminutive
Boobies! Hooray!
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:51 PM
When does this "pussy / cunt" thing come up? What is this, 9-ball? Are the kids calling their shots nowadays?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:52 PM
Exactly.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:52 PM
What would people prefer instead of "panties"? That's the part that's always confused me.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:52 PM
There is a joke I no longer remember, but which was popular at my junior high in the way that dirty jokes become popular among teenage boys, whose punchline resembles the last clause of 85.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:53 PM
123 to 121.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:53 PM
"underwear."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:54 PM
115: I've thought about this a lot but have no real answer. It is interesting that so many people hate this word. "Underwear" is a perfectly serviceable word.
Also, almost everybody I know hates the word "moist." It makes my own skin crawl.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:54 PM
When does this "pussy / cunt" thing come up? What is this, 9-ball? Are the kids calling their shots nowadays?
When you're writing love letters to your inamorata/us and are including blue language you don't intend to be in the final draft, it's important to choose with just which words you'll express your secret longings so that, when said inamorata/us encounters your initial attempts, it will have just the right effect on him/her.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:54 PM
I wrote 125.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:54 PM
122 is brilliant. I don't think I have a preference for 'pussy' or 'cunt' because I really don't want a play-by-play.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:55 PM
129: I see you learned something from Atonement after all.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:55 PM
That should either be "inamoratus/a" throughout, or "her/him" at the end.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:55 PM
122 - Yes, Shutting The Fuck Up is usually the best option of all.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:56 PM
122: "You have a beautiful _____." "I love the way your _______ tastes." Q: "What do you want me to do while you masturbate?" A: "Put your fingers inside my _____." Etc.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:56 PM
When does this "pussy / cunt" thing come up? What is this, 9-ball? Are the kids calling their shots nowadays?
It's called "dirty talk." And/or "inquiry."
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:56 PM
134: Disagreed. Talking is sexy.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:56 PM
127: But how do you distinguish between men's and women's underwear? And between bras and, um, y'see?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:56 PM
109: I considered saying that, but as evidenced by the start of my comment (saying that compliments might be downgraded for being clichéd), I was mentioning what I took to be providing a general rule applicable in a majority of cases.
Still 109:
complimentrix
Can I enlist your support in my quest to re-title NYU L. Rev's Editor-in-Chief, who happens to be a woman, Editrix-in-Chief?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:57 PM
'You have a beautiful ____???' People say things like that?
I need to get out more.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:57 PM
Or what 136 said (dirty talk, dirty talk, inquiry).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:57 PM
Or what 135 said (dirty talk, dirty talk, inquiry).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:58 PM
137 - Talking can be sexy.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:58 PM
men's and women's underwear
Pretty much just like that.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:58 PM
Q: "What do you want me to do while you masturbate?"
A: Run out and get some damn coffee.
w/d in 139: yes.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:59 PM
I actually also got the beautiful line from this guy. Maybe his fitting punishment will be having a blow by blow of our time together on an Unfogged comment thread.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:59 PM
I hope to one day regain my ability to write a comment, other than a comment which corrects a previous one, that isn't fucked up in any way.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:59 PM
138: ??? Why do you need to distinguish? "Are these yours?" "Nice underwear!" or "Pretty lingerie!" or "I can't find my underwear" or whatever--I mean, isn't the distinction always going to be clear in context??
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:59 PM
teo, bras don't count as underwear when saying 'underwear.' Maybe 'underthings' if you want to talk about everything under.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 10:59 PM
138: Well, the context usually helps. If you ask a woman, "can I take off your underwear?", I think she'll know what you're talking about.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:00 PM
But how do you distinguish between men's and women's underwear? And between bras and, um, y'see?
Bras are bras, underwear goes on your ass.
We don't need to distinguish between men's and women's underwear; we don't distinguish between men's and women's jeans or men's and women's socks, etc.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:00 PM
A: "Put your fingers inside my _____."
That reminds me of my commencement.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:01 PM
If you ask a woman, "can I take off your underwear?", I think she'll know what you're talking about.
It might seem that way to us sophisticates, but for many people transvestism still seems strange and foreign.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:02 PM
143: Granted. Some people don't know how to do it.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:02 PM
Context can also make it possible to use "you" in place of "your ____" in many sentences.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:02 PM
145, 153--Ben is on a roll.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:03 PM
See, this is what happens when I comment on the sex threads.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:03 PM
Also:
Q: "What do you want me to do while you masturbate?" A: "Put your fingers inside my _____."
Tia is the hero.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:03 PM
155: bingo.
Tia's blanks could lead to a fun game of MadLibs.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:06 PM
Or:
Tia's ____ could lead to a fun game of ____.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:08 PM
______ ____ ___ ______ __ _____ ___
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:09 PM
However, I really really hate the word "sexy" unless it's used to describe thesis topics or architecture or something like that.
Counterexample: In Sideways, Miles describes a red wine as sexy. I believe one of my roommates has also done this, but might be mistaken. Either way, it's annoying. I know the same roommate once said, referring to a pre-arranged table at a restaurant, "Why don't you make a rezzy for that?" I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." Also we're good friends and I'm a bad person for once again bad-mouthing him online.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:11 PM
_: ____ __ ___ ____ __ __ __ _____ ___ __________?
_: ___ ____ _______ _____ __!
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:12 PM
I often say, "why don't you make a sexy for that"; referring, of course, to sexervations.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:14 PM
Making too many sexies can lead to eny.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:16 PM
I don't take sexervations.
First come, then served (hey-o!).
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:18 PM
Making too many sexies can lead to eny.
An acute obsy.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:22 PM
I don't particularly like the use of "sexy" for thesis topics, but I do know a student who, in the presence of two professors, in a classroom situation, in commenting on another student's paper, used the following terms to say that the paper needed a longer introduction and conclusion: "not enough foreplay, and not enough cuddling."
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:24 PM
From 42:
The guy should put in a legitimate effort, because, hey, you know, even if there is no orgasm, those attempts at facilitating them feel good (as long as he's not a total idiot).
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
I hate that men are so orgasm-centric that once you've had sex a few times and they haven't been able to get you off, they just stop even trying.
Why try when you know failure will ensue?
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:37 PM
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
It is?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:39 PM
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
Stuff and nonsense.
Why try when you know failure will ensue?
Why try at all, really? After all, who cares?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:40 PM
"pussy" v. "cunt"
What, no love for the yoni?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:47 PM
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
I have a very hard time believing that. Unless your experience of receiving a blowjob is "ho hum.. ho hum.. HOLY SHIT."
Duh.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:47 PM
170: Or rather, how the good feeling could outweigh the feeling of frustration.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:48 PM
Why try at all, really? After all, who cares?
Exactly. Avoid sex entirely.
It's hard for guys to imagine how a failure to achieve orgasm could feel good.
Stuff and nonsense.
Why? Of course it would depend on what the woman was in it for, exactly, which would require saying what they were in it for, which would be all wrong because it would spoil the mood.
SB: And women—what's your cab policy with them?
Terminal ICBM ride from my personal Fortress of Darkness.
What's yours?
ash
['I really should changed my name back over.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:49 PM
172: No love for the yoni.
174: Indeed. I'd really rather just have sex without any arousal at all, to avoid frustration and failure. Go ahead, dear, I'll just watch tv while you finish up.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:51 PM
My friend knows a guy named Yoni. I don't think the guy in question knew (when she knew him; in junior high) that his name was basically 'vagina.'
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:51 PM
173: If it's interrupted before finishing, I generally wish it hadn't started at all.
My heart isn't in defending these position, though, because of my initial error in saying "guys" rather than "I". Those terms are not synonymous.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:52 PM
it would depend on what the woman was in it for
Are there women who don't like their sex partners to do things that arouse them? I don't know of any.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:53 PM
Are all women happy when their sex partners arouse them but don't bring them to orgasm?
I'm not a woman, but I'm not. See 178.
It can be likened to a sneeze that fails to sneeze.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:55 PM
Seems to me a big part of the problem is that a lot of guys don't get that it's not a lot of women can't orgasm, it's that a lot of women can't orgasm solely with intercourse. So "attempts to facillitate" all too often involves more thrusting or a different position. Once that doesn't work they figure they triied everything.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:55 PM
More to the point, are there women or men who don't like their sex partners to be aroused? Because if there aren, I don't want to know them.
If it's interrupted before finishing, I generally wish it hadn't started at all.
That should be pretty easy to ensure, right? "Hey, baby, if you touch my cock, you better finish me off, or else don't bother," would pretty much take care of it, I'd think.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:58 PM
It can be likened to a sneeze that fails to sneeze.
Sounds exquisite.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 06-11-06 11:59 PM
Q: Are all women happy when their sex partners arouse them but don't bring them to orgasm?
A: Why try when you know failure will ensue?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:00 AM
Also, "What would you like me to do while you masturbate?" is an underrated question.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:00 AM
If it's interrupted before finishing, I generally wish it hadn't started at all.
Um, that's horrible. You should probably just tell women that, maybe that'll solve your problem.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:00 AM
That should be pretty easy to ensure, right? "Hey, baby, if you touch my cock, you better finish me off, or else don't bother," would pretty much take care of it, I'd think.
No one would actually say that, it would be intimidating. But the frustration does exist. What's wrong with admitting that?
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:01 AM
Are there women who don't like their sex partners to do things that arouse them? I don't know of any.
And then there are the approximately 100% of women who don't get enough sex from their SO's. Never met any of those in person, but clearly they exist.
At any rate, the answer to your question is all that all men are wrong, of course.
ash
['Do dah.']
Posted by ash | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:01 AM
Along with, "show/tell me how you like to be touched" or "show/tell me how to make you come" or "show/tell me what feels good" and so on, and so on, and so on.
Jeez.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:02 AM
sexually frustrated != don't get enough sex.
See 42.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:03 AM
187: What's wrong with being able to help yourself?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:04 AM
No one would actually say that, it would be intimidating. But the frustration does exist. What's wrong with admitting that?
Dude, you're discouraging chicks from giving a casual grope. Knock it off.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:06 AM
a lot of women can't orgasm solely with intercourse
Q: What would you like me to do while you masturbate?
A: Put your ______ in my ________.
Problem solved.
Posted by silvana | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:07 AM
Boy, all these negative responses have almost convinced me that I'm physically abnormal. I just don't get much from the sex act until the climax.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:11 AM
194: That's too bad.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:18 AM
195: Sorry.
On the plus side, I now know when and when not to generalize from my own experience.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:19 AM
I just don't get much from the sex act until the climax.
Really? Maybe you're not doing it right. Seriously.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:19 AM
Oh well, I don't want to fix what's not broken. My life in general is going pretty well.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:38 AM
On the panty/undearwear question...no love for "unmentionables"?
and193: hott!
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:50 AM
Unless I am looking in entirely the wrong chapter, Burke's Manual of Etiquette and Protocol is completely silent on both these crucial questions. I swear to god that fucking book is completely useless.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 12:52 AM
Try Burke's Peerage instead.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 1:06 AM
"I'd said when we went back to his place that I either had to leave that night or early the next morning"
That's often code for 'I do not want to stay the night'. I don't think the guy is necessarily a prick for not leaping to pay for cab fare. I'm not even sure it's something that I think he *ought* to have done -- being able to find their own way home being something that adults are generally expected to be able to do. And walking you to the underground station suggests he's not a total dick re: the taxi.
However, the not-caring-about-the-orgasm thing = teh shitty.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 2:08 AM
194: So the earlier line of 'Ho hum, ho hum, ho hum, HOLY SHIT!' (which cracked me up laughing) actually applies in your case?
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 5:10 AM
wow. given the tenor of this conversation, i'd like to point out that lots of women won't come the first time because they're getting used to you.
this would be true of me. but once comfortable, some of us are disappointed if they don't come twice fairly regularly - not every time, but pretty often. and three times is not unknown, though not expected, and much appreciated. so no more of this "women generally don't come" stuff.
(yes, obviously, the process of getting close can be great even if orgasm doesn't happen...sometimes that is what you are in the mood for instead anyway...)
(and finally, along with silvana, i have also totally come and then rolled over and fallen asleep w/o reciprocation...but that's what happens when you wake a person up in the middle of the night, bah humbug. :) )
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 5:57 AM
Way back in 78: Or, you know, most cities have a fucking coffee shop like a block away
There actually is a coffee shop two blocks away from my house in Weinerville, because I decided to live in the neighborhood that has stores you can walk to, but I bet in most of Lubbock you'd have to drive to get coffee. Which under the circumstances you should. Welcome to suburbia.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 6:19 AM
re: 204
Oh yes, and there are those who have orgasm taxonomies and get decidely grumpy if they have a mere 2 or 3 orgasms and none of them are full on 'Krakatoa' ones.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 6:26 AM
205: Yeah, I made the same choice when I moved to east nowhere.
Speaking of coffee, mine's worn off. I'ma go to sleep now.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 6:33 AM
76: Darling, you look simply ravishing tonight.
Posted by The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 6:39 AM
Are all women happy when their sex partners arouse them but don't bring them to orgasm?
Maybe men and women are wired differently, but to me, this is like saying "I won't go to the three-star restaurant at all unless I can be guaranteed dessert." It's better if you can get dessert, of course, if there's no dessert, it's still worthwhile.
In any case, it's better to be aroused and eventually less than satisfied than not aroused at all. Um, that sorta hurts. ('But at least there's no failure! Ow.')
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:22 AM
I can certainly think of one friend of my acquaintance who claims never to have had an orgasm. She likes sex, has had lots of experience, has no hang-ups, and is adamant that her sex life is generally pretty good.
The fact that some people can certainly enjoy sex without orgasm, some or even all of the time is not the same thing as being capable of having an orgasm but having a partner who is too lazy to bother, though.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:30 AM
oh come now, you're exaggerating everything out of context.
i just think it's funny when the default/implicit assumption is "women tend not to get orgasms."
and to 210: there are probably lots of women who have never had orgasms. usually they are youngish. because it takes a while to figure out what turns you on and how to turn yourself on when you're a women...it can take a couple of years. i'm sure she enjoys it - those states are enjoyable too. but, give your friend time!
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:36 AM
above was re: 206
and (ahem!) there's nothing wrong with krakatoan fun anyway.
i believe everybody involved enjoys that.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:39 AM
Re: 211
The person described in 210 is in her mid-30s and been having sex for the best part of 20 years -- so not really that youngish or inexperienced. She claims to enjoy it a great deal, just not to have actual orgasms.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:44 AM
To come in way, way late: first, the guy sounds awful. I'm having a hard time even visualizing sex that didn't incorporate some effort toward facilitating an orgasm for you -- what was he doing, asking you to lie still and think of England? (Not an actual request for information. I am reminded of a story I heard ages ago of a friend of a friend dating a guy who appeared to have a necrophilia thing -- he'd ask her to take a cold bath first and lie very still.)
On the cab thing, I'd call the offense the lack of an invitation to spend the night (which strikes me as pretty severe. I don't care if it's inconvenient, if you have sex with someone they should be sleeping over). Not paying for the cab? Eh, you didn't ask. If you can't afford the cab and you have safety or comfort issues about the train, you either ask to stay over because you can't afford a cab and don't want to be on the subway at night, or ask to borrow cab fare. You're never entitled to be pissed off at someone because they didn't give you stuff.
Not giving you orgasms, or at least making a solid effort in that direction? That you can be pissed off about.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:46 AM
And on the "you have no idea how sexy you are" thing: It can come off like Cala said as a pleasant compliment, something along the lines of "If you realized how devastating you were, you'd be incredibly vain and you aren't. You must just not know the effect you have." (This isn't exactly it, but something like that.)
It can also come off as "Heh, heh. Let me awaken you, my naive and innocent little flower." WHich is gross.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:50 AM
213: hm, that sounds too bad for her.
you know, pleasant things are great, but occasionally having really intense experiences is something i wouldn't want missing from my life.
also, i will just point out in 206: when the quantity of orgasms increases, the quality also increases/changes. so that last phrase in 206 isn't really applicable.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:51 AM
That's often code for 'I do not want to stay the night'.
Whether or not that's true, there's no sane reason not to ask, just in case you've misunderstood their meaning, or their mind has changed now that their snuggled into bed. It any case, it's irrelevant; I know that's not what he understood me to mean. Further, the very statement "Let's put you into a cab," if it doesn't mean, "I'm giving you cab fare," is rude and presumptuous--at the very least it should be, "How are you going to get home?" because he should not be assuming I have the money to pay a large cab fare. And finally, there are lots of things that adults can do, but in certain situations should not be obligated to do. I should not have been obligated to go home on the train.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:55 AM
Not paying for the cab? Eh, you didn't ask.
To me "Let's put you in a cab" sounds like an offer, in part because of the tradition mentioned above of paying someone's cab fare. This might be a little skewed by never living anywhere you can hail a cab on the street.
But I agree that he should have offered to let Tia stay over. How hard can it be to get back to sleep?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 7:57 AM
In re finding your way home as something adults are expected to do, I've occasionally had to take a long subway ride in New York late at night (not for this reason), and it can be a real pain in the ass. I expect it's much more convenient and pleasant in the morning.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:00 AM
well, some ppl find falling asleep in the same bed more intimate than having sex.
but that said, i agree, there is no turning people out into the night at very late hours. i hope that's the last you see of him, at least in this context.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:01 AM
He just sounds selfish. The cab fare thing might be excusable; if his normal social circle is full of people who normally have the cash for it. But the whole 'tomorrow is my day to sleep in' plus the lack of interest in Tia's orgasm just means that he doesn't seem to have any interest beyond himself. Sex, check. Ability to sleep in tomorrow, check.
Bleh.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:03 AM
Further, the very statement "Let's put you into a cab," if it doesn't mean, "I'm giving you cab fare," is rude and presumptuous--at the very least it should be, "How are you going to get home?" because he should not be assuming I have the money to pay a large cab fare.
No, you were being presumptuous in assuming that he was going to give you money. If you weren't presuming, you would have said "Oh, I can't afford a cab home from here," and followed with your choice of (a) "I'm going to take the train"; (b) "I'm not comfortable taking the train, mind if I stay? I'll try not to wake you up when I leave in the morning," or (c) "Can I borrow $40 for the cab?" (I admit that I'd expect any of those to elicit an apologetic either "Please stay," or "Oh, heavens no, I'll pay for the cab.")
But he's really not responsible for knowing that you can't get yourself home under your own power in a way that makes you happy if you don't ask him for help.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:06 AM
sex that didn't incorporate some effort toward facilitating an orgasm for you
While he had an erection, he did things that were designed to arouse me. When he did not, he rolled over and snoozed basically.
You're never entitled to be pissed off at someone because they didn't give you stuff.
This is just wrong. The world is full of situations in which there are conventions and implicatures and understandings that construct obligations, in which you aren't supposed to have to state certain things explicitly. If you are polite and don't ask for something that isn't freely offered, it doesn't mean that you can't be pissed because it should have been. After all, I didn't ask for an orgasm either, so why is it his fault he didn't offer to try? To recapitulate a previous discussion, if he had invited me to a fancy restaurant I couldn't pay for, then made no move to take care of the bill when it came, and I had politely paid my half of the check, I would have been totally justified in being pissed. Whether or not you personally would prefer things to be more direct, that's not the way a lot of the world works, and socially intelligent people are supposed to understand what they should do to make another person feel comfortable without the other person having to request everything. It's being a good host.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:07 AM
The world is full of situations in which there are conventions and implicatures and understandings that construct obligations, in which you aren't supposed to have to state certain things explicitly. If you are polite and don't ask for something that isn't freely offered, it doesn't mean that you can't be pissed because it should have been.
The problem is that your sense of the conventions and implicatures is not universal -- it's local to your social group. If you have expectations of this sort, you're going to spend a large part of your life unreasonably pissed off at people because their sense of conventions and implicatures was formed outside of your social circle. Expecting people to know what you want when you don't say it limits your capacity to successfully interact with people to your own social group.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:19 AM
And Weiner is totally right in 218.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:20 AM
Q: What would you like me to do while you masturbate?
A: Put your ______ in my ________.
cabfare; moist panties.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:22 AM
I wouldn't want "my own social group" at least as regards intimacy, to be broader than those who know this without being told.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:22 AM
Just got the happy kitty ISE.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:23 AM
"Sexy" is a great word, but should be served with a side of profanity ("You are so fucking sexy").
Then there's the eternal "pussy" v. "cunt" question. I prefer "cunt".
This is so wrong. "Pussy" is beautiful and naughty.
And no condoms does not result in a kid. It results in no sex.
!!!
In my world, it just results in no penetration. There's a whole cornucopia of delights.
"Panties" is terrible.
You may also have kids with Joe D.
It would all come crashing down when I whisper that she has a sexy pussy.
Tia, don't get discouraged! This is New York! You'll never find a dating pool of more sexually enlightened men! And I'm not just speaking of myself here!
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:24 AM
Our social groups are easily similar enough that he had plenty of information to be able to project himself into my situation and think about what would make me feel comfortable. He is not some alien creature who doesn't have the experience to understand that I might like to stay in one bed for the night, and that it would be polite to offer. Nor is the concept that it's hard to get home at night from one borough to another in New York City on the train foreign to him; I'm quite sure. The fact that he didn't make an effort to ideally, invite me to stay, or second best, make sure I went home in a cab, speaks poorly for his consideration.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:28 AM
I have considered this matter carefully and I now think that in the circumstances, you should send him an invoice for $40, with a small note included making it clear that the invoice is not for the cab.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:30 AM
He is not some alien creature who doesn't have the experience to understand that I might like to stay in one bed for the night, and that it would be polite to offer.
On this I couldn't agree more.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:31 AM
It seems to me that a lot of arguments between feminists, here and elsewhere, break down at the same point: some people are arguing about what should happen in an ideal world, others what should happen in this less than ideal one.
I think it's a bit disingenous to say, as Tia does, that it's a gender-neutral situation, that a woman would give a guy cab fare if pushing him out in the middle of the night. I have trouble imagining this happening. You can have gender-neutral consideration for the person, as b suggests, for instance walking someone to an ATM. But cab fare has an extra layer of the gentlemanly; it just does. This does not, however, make it totally incompatible with contemporary mores, because there is still some income inequality between men and women generally--residual expectations carrying along with that--and there is some extra concern for a woman traveling in the middle of the night. It seems the way to correct this is by addressing income inequality and safety issues as much as possible, at a general level, rather than punishing the individual woman going home in the middle of the night for whom cab fare is a hardship.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:34 AM
You'll never find a dating pool of more sexually enlightened men!
Except, of course, at the Mineshaft. (Tia, remind me, who am I trying to fix you up with again?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:35 AM
Possibly, as dsquared suggests well above, there are no real rules covering these situations. Or there are different sets of rules for different types of relationships, and the set that is acceptable to you defines the type of relationship you want. I'm surprised that he didn't invite Tia to stay (I'm a little surprised that the norm isn't at least a little food in the morning), but there are lots of different types of relationships, and I'm willing to believe that there are some in which you're allowed to kick the other person out after finishing off.
Same sort of thing with the cab. I think I'd be offended by the idea that I was obliged to provide cab fare by some set of pseudo-Victorian rules. OTOH, I generally believe that people often ought to pay equivalent costs, as measured by the marginal utility of the relevant amounts of cash; if you've got significantly more cash, and unless you're feeling worked, you should pick up more of the checks, whether sex is involved or not.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:35 AM
I was clearly stuck working overtime in the shark tank and missed the previous subtext that allowed for 200 comments without mentioning this:
"As I was saying, Graham declared that we could not see each other for four weeks after we wound up seeing each other twice in a weekend."
Because, that seems wrong in and of itself.
Having said that, "you have no idea how..." is really a way of expressing the pleasure one is drawing. It starts with the assumption that we can never really know what is going on in other people. And it isn't only men who say this sort of thing. Although perhaps it was only said to me because I'm particularly bound by the hermeneutic circle and hence completely clueless.
As for taxis and coffee, some people are genuinely clueless and carelss. But some get off on seeing how far they can take someone for granted when a good thing comes their way. In which case there is an implicit cruelty. I don't want to tell you to run away or anything, but it is a theory that fits the facts.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:36 AM
I agree that social conventions make it more likely that a woman would expect cab fare than the other way around; however, if I had woman whose income way outstripped my date's, I would offer. The one time I have been in anything like this situation was in college, when I had some money and my boyfriend had literally none. I bought us groceries, sometimes paid for restaurant meals, etc.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:37 AM
If I were a woman...
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:39 AM
As I was saying, Graham declared that we could not see each other for four weeks after we wound up seeing each other twice in a weekend.
I agree heartily that on the face of it, in the absence of fairly heavy extenuating circumstances, this does carry rather an impression of having something of the twat about it.
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:40 AM
Because, that seems wrong in and of itself.
?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:40 AM
I see what you mean about restaurants and stuff--but it still seems to that cab fare has a particularly gendered association, because money meets safety concerns there.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:41 AM
If I were a woman...
diddle diddle diddle diddle dum dee dum dee dee
All day long I'd fiddle with my ...
Posted by dsquared | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:41 AM
What are you talking about? We nominally broke up in February. He's trying to enforce a separation that neither of us have been able to maintain.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:41 AM
I figured it meant that he's trying desperately to get over her. Which is hard, since it's Tia.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:41 AM
Backgrounder on the breakup, in case anyone hasn't seen it.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:43 AM
I'm just saying that whatever the larger social situation, I'm not expecting something because he's a man and I'm a woman, since I, personally, would do the same thing were the circumstances reversed, whatever other women would be likely to do, or other men would be likely to accept.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:44 AM
whatever other women would be likely to do, or other men would be likely to accept.
Well, there goes the "social conventions" explanation, right?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:45 AM
243 - I'd missed exactly what Matt posted in 245. It makes perfect sense now. Without knowing that, it seemed a little bit like an odd structure to the relationship. (Although, Madre de Dios, a lot less odd than 214). But now it all makes sense.
Except the no sleeping over/ no cab part.
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:49 AM
The no-cab guy isn't Graham, the ex. Two different men.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:51 AM
247: What he did was wrong because he failed to consider my situation individually. The "conventions" part was that I should not have to say, "Can I please sleep over?" because it should be offered, and if it's not, for some reason, the host should make a big effort to make sure their date gets home safe.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:53 AM
We need a pseudonym for no-cab guy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:53 AM
On cliched compliments, does anyone find the phrase "your skin is so soft," annoying?
I may be being unreasonable on this one, but it always reminds me of a particular date. I remember hooking up (no sex) with a guy that I hadn't seen in a long time and knew kind of casually from college. We went to a
party first, and I think that he might have been sort of showing me off to some friends. (I'm not gorgeous or anything, but I'm reaasonably cute/pretty/attractive, and he wasn't exactly hott, all of which is just a roundabout way of saying that, under the circumstances, I could have been a trophy date.. He wasn't really my type; he was very smart but also insecure. I was fairly "easy to talk to"about some personal stuff. The hooking up only really happened, because I was pretty drunk. The whole thing from the pre-date coffee date on felt as though he'd read some book on how to get girls and was following its prescriptions. "Your skin is so soft" sounded like it was one of the compliment options provided forthose with asperger's who needed rigid rules to follow. Maybe it's an acceptable option, but I find it a bit creepy.
Posted by Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-12-06 8:55 AM
249 -- (If directed to 248) I knew that. It was the broader narrative history -- and apparently pronouns -- that I was struggling with.
Posted by benton |