Might have intended to do something different and changed his mind or never got around to it.
I sing tenor, and the transposition can give me fits when I try to play melodies, on the clarinet. I've mostly played it as written for the intervals, then sung an octive down, if I can. I'd have to re-write every note to play it correctly. Tenor clef would give me the fits if I encountered it any more than once in a while.
This reminds me of a piece I played where the composer went, in order, from 12/8 to 11/8 to 10/8 to 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8 to 6/8 to 5/8 to 4/8 to 3/8 time, one bar of each. Made the conductor look like he was having a seizure.
It was just a big "fuck you" to people who had forgotten how to read tenor clef. (I've also been told that composers sometimes do that kind of thing for new-edition copyright-renewal reasons; Schoenberg once refused, because he felt that his published score was perfect.)
Linkwhorewise, I've been doing a lot of music blogging at my site recently. At my URL is my review of Max Weber's "Rational and Social Foundations of Music", which I suggest might be a big cultural-studies bluff by someone who's understanding of music is pretty garbled. (Or else the book is just too tough for me, even though I have a good general idea of what he's talking about.)
My conclusion is that the book might be strictly unreadable and that I should never have read it, but the Max Weber / music theory fans here might be interested anyway.
You're so wrong, Joe. Also, conventional wisdom around the music department here is that women who play the viola are always, always hott. (I think you have to still be playing for it to work for you, though.)
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Fuck you, clown!
----
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
Fuck you, clown!
----
so much depends
upon
Viola uses alto clef (looks the same, but centered on the middle line). You see tenor clef when normally-bass-clef instruments go high -- bassoon, for example.
Agreed with FL that this is silly. I don't think the copyist was being intentionally perverse, though; probably just thinking "This line is descending from the heights, we can switch back to a lower clef now". And then not going back to fix it.
I'm just looking out for your interests, newly single Joe. At least de-googlify your name when attacking hott violaists! (I know one totally smokin' professional viol da gamba player.)
Also, yes, I want to hear your hurdy-gurdy concerto.
"Leave my loneliness unbroken!- quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!"
Quoth the Raven, "Fuck you, clown."
Huh. Upon googling, I've discovered that filk doesn't mean what I've known it to mean (rewriting well-known lyrics/poetry for humorous ends), but is instead some weird science fiction thing.
I transitioned from bassoon to oboe so I wouldn't have to deal with clef nightmares. At one point I was playing bass clarinet and thought I would focus on that (instead of tenor saxophone), but I'm just not capable of shifting gears like that mid-reading and invariably transposed the music and taped the lines over the score.
Also, conventional wisdom around the music department here is that women who play the viola are always, always hott. (I think you have to still be playing for it to work for you, though.)
Do they play it during sex (like the scene from The Red Violin)? That would indeed be hott.
I too was an oboist! But clefs were not the issue -- while my score-reading skills were far from a conductor's level, I could handle, say, a string quartet OK.
I used to play baritone (also called euphonium), and it was sometimes written in treble clef and sometimes in bass clef. I could never read the bass clef stuff fluently, but that was seldom a problem because almost all the pieces we played in band had parts for either option. It seems kind of bizarre to go to that trouble to accomdate such a relatively obscure instrument.
If the composer wanted the performer to articulate the second note distinctly, that might be a way to go. But usually when I see a strange notation I suspect it's meant to emphasize that something of harmonic significance is going on. Maybe this is unison with the bassoons.
Apo: 18 is the best comment you've made since "never misuses a colon".
Seeing as that colon comment was a long time ago, that's a pretty left-handed compliment.
And Joe dear, do you play any instruments? 'Cause this viola player feels like getting together with Jackmormon and John Cale and crippling your hands for your insolence. We'll invite apostropher too, because you obviously don't appreciate him enough.
Are you fucking shitting me? Who in his or her right mind wouldn't want to hear a hurdy-gurdy concerto? The vielle à roue is so awesome, even Sting plays one. Also, there's a French rock band with a guitar/bass/hurdy-gurdy/drums lineup, and it's great (and let's not forget the all HG band called simply "Hurdy Gurdy"). You can really get a very broad range of sounds out of a hurdy gurdy, so even though you proposed it as a joke, a concerto for one isn't a bad idea at all.
And Jackmormon's right; the viola is a great instrument and female violists of the woman persuasion are always, always, stone cold hotties. For proof you need look no further than JM herself.
No, no, I love instruments that are poorly designed, acoustically flawed and technologically obsolete.
I've become convinced that Joey D must be thinking of the wrong instrument. The viola uses the exact same technology as the violin, the cello and the double bass. So if it's obsolete then he's just writing off the whole string section.
And even if you are really talking about violas, Joe, what do you propose to put between the second violins and the cellos on stage? Third violins? What to do about the range gap that would leave?
And poorly designed and acoustically flawed? It's the same design as a violin, just slightly larger and lower strung, therefore not screechy like its smaller cousin.
None of the above is meant to make light of the coolness of hurdy gurdys, of course.
I'm kind of hoping that Joe plays a brass instrument, so we can bust up his omberture too!
IIRC the reason the bass is so odd is that it's a hybrid of what would be the bass member of the vln/vla/vlc family, and what would be a contrabass viol. Hence there are different, uh, backs or some shit floating around? And I think not all designs have the same sort of sloped shoulders?
What I want to know is, what technology has replaced the viola? Amplified violas?
JM: whyever not? Bphd sent me a picture of her tits and look at all the great things that are happening for her! NTM it would be so little trouble for you, and would make me so happy.
So now the argument is that I should make an offering of tittie-photos, for good fortune? It would be pretty great if you managed to convince people to do that. Other people, I mean.
LOL!! I almost fell out of my seat reading this comment thread!! Anyways, to quote Ben Wolfson (#46): "the viola is a great instrument and female violists of the woman persuasion are always, always, stone cold hotties"... I played the viola for 15 years, so I'll take that as a compliment:)
I'm not familiar with this piece. But, in my opinion, it is easier for a musician to make the transition from one clef to another if it is on the same note. But, if there are measures of rest after that, I'ml just as confused as you are. That is just odd.
The tenor clef would make more sense if after the rest the part continued in tenor clef. Copyists sometimes do this to give musicians warning that they're going to be playing in another clef when they come back in.
That's pretty ridiculous. Who can read tenor clef, anyway?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:01 AM
And I didn't even know Koussevitsky was a composer.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:02 AM
D&D, concerto blogging.... It's like seeing Danny Zuko in the letterman's sweater.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:03 AM
Might have intended to do something different and changed his mind or never got around to it.
I sing tenor, and the transposition can give me fits when I try to play melodies, on the clarinet. I've mostly played it as written for the intervals, then sung an octive down, if I can. I'd have to re-write every note to play it correctly. Tenor clef would give me the fits if I encountered it any more than once in a while.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:10 AM
And I didn't even know Koussevitsky was a composer.
So famous, they named a shed after him.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:12 AM
This reminds me of a piece I played where the composer went, in order, from 12/8 to 11/8 to 10/8 to 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8 to 6/8 to 5/8 to 4/8 to 3/8 time, one bar of each. Made the conductor look like he was having a seizure.
Posted by SP | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:12 AM
I think it was his conducting greatness with the BSO and Tanglewood that inspired the shed, smarty.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:17 AM
Joe, tenor clef comes up for bass solo literature a lot.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:17 AM
As long as the drums keep playing, it is good.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:19 AM
I love that joke.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:20 AM
I used to play the viola, for which music is written in the tenor. I don't think I could read it today.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:20 AM
Viola's so lame, though.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:21 AM
So famous, they named a shed after him.
What, just one?
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:21 AM
Check out the end of the third poem here. It's like reading a poem that builds to "Fuck you, clown!"
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:22 AM
It was just a big "fuck you" to people who had forgotten how to read tenor clef. (I've also been told that composers sometimes do that kind of thing for new-edition copyright-renewal reasons; Schoenberg once refused, because he felt that his published score was perfect.)
Linkwhorewise, I've been doing a lot of music blogging at my site recently. At my URL is my review of Max Weber's "Rational and Social Foundations of Music", which I suggest might be a big cultural-studies bluff by someone who's understanding of music is pretty garbled. (Or else the book is just too tough for me, even though I have a good general idea of what he's talking about.)
My conclusion is that the book might be strictly unreadable and that I should never have read it, but the Max Weber / music theory fans here might be interested anyway.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:23 AM
You're so wrong, Joe. Also, conventional wisdom around the music department here is that women who play the viola are always, always hott. (I think you have to still be playing for it to work for you, though.)
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:27 AM
No, no, I love instruments that are poorly designed, acoustically flawed and technologically obsolete.
Anyone want to hear my hurdy-gurdy concerto?
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:31 AM
Every poem should end "Fuck you, clown!"
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Fuck you, clown!
----
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
Fuck you, clown!
----
so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow
glazed with rain
water
beside the white
chickens.
fuck you
clown.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:32 AM
Viola uses alto clef (looks the same, but centered on the middle line). You see tenor clef when normally-bass-clef instruments go high -- bassoon, for example.
Agreed with FL that this is silly. I don't think the copyist was being intentionally perverse, though; probably just thinking "This line is descending from the heights, we can switch back to a lower clef now". And then not going back to fix it.
Posted by Vance Maverick | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:33 AM
I'm just looking out for your interests, newly single Joe. At least de-googlify your name when attacking hott violaists! (I know one totally smokin' professional viol da gamba player.)
Also, yes, I want to hear your hurdy-gurdy concerto.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:33 AM
I laughed out loud at 17. Then I googled hurdy-gurdy.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:34 AM
19. Oh, yeah, that's right. It's been a while.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:35 AM
"Leave my loneliness unbroken!- quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!"
Quoth the Raven, "Fuck you, clown."
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:38 AM
Apo: 18 is the best comment you've made since "never misuses a colon".
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:40 AM
Aww shucks, Joe.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:43 AM
William Carlos Williams is so good for filk.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:45 AM
The 18-23 double punch has me down for the count.
Posted by My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:47 AM
Huh. Upon googling, I've discovered that filk doesn't mean what I've known it to mean (rewriting well-known lyrics/poetry for humorous ends), but is instead some weird science fiction thing.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:51 AM
I transitioned from bassoon to oboe so I wouldn't have to deal with clef nightmares. At one point I was playing bass clarinet and thought I would focus on that (instead of tenor saxophone), but I'm just not capable of shifting gears like that mid-reading and invariably transposed the music and taped the lines over the score.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:53 AM
28: dictionary.com says it's both.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:54 AM
Aha. Here's your other one.
Posted by Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:57 AM
Attempting to decipher sheet music makes my head hurt.
Fuck you, clown!
Posted by NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 11:59 AM
Also, conventional wisdom around the music department here is that women who play the viola are always, always hott. (I think you have to still be playing for it to work for you, though.)
Do they play it during sex (like the scene from The Red Violin)? That would indeed be hott.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 12:09 PM
18 s/b
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, Fuck you, Clown!
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 12:16 PM
One can do the same thing with cartoons.
I too was an oboist! But clefs were not the issue -- while my score-reading skills were far from a conductor's level, I could handle, say, a string quartet OK.
Posted by Vance Maverick | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 12:20 PM
33--No, but I suspect that might be the fantasy involved.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 12:28 PM
I used to play baritone (also called euphonium), and it was sometimes written in treble clef and sometimes in bass clef. I could never read the bass clef stuff fluently, but that was seldom a problem because almost all the pieces we played in band had parts for either option. It seems kind of bizarre to go to that trouble to accomdate such a relatively obscure instrument.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 12:34 PM
Single or double-bell euphonium?
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 1:20 PM
http://home.earthlink.net/~tenorhorn/euphhistory.html
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 1:21 PM
If the composer wanted the performer to articulate the second note distinctly, that might be a way to go. But usually when I see a strange notation I suspect it's meant to emphasize that something of harmonic significance is going on. Maybe this is unison with the bassoons.
Posted by rilkefan | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 6:32 PM
Apo: 18 is the best comment you've made since "never misuses a colon".
Seeing as that colon comment was a long time ago, that's a pretty left-handed compliment.
And Joe dear, do you play any instruments? 'Cause this viola player feels like getting together with Jackmormon and John Cale and crippling your hands for your insolence. We'll invite apostropher too, because you obviously don't appreciate him enough.
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 9:23 PM
It was an amazing comment, though. It's hard for anyone to top something like that.
My sister used to play the viola. I'll join in on the hand-crippling for her sake.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 9:31 PM
Speaking of misusing colons.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 9:31 PM
This thread makes me so sad. I can't read music anymore.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 07-21-06 10:07 PM
43 is awesome. Poor Bartolo. Ironically, he's a pitcher.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 8:00 AM
Anyone want to hear my hurdy-gurdy concerto?
Are you fucking shitting me? Who in his or her right mind wouldn't want to hear a hurdy-gurdy concerto? The vielle à roue is so awesome, even Sting plays one. Also, there's a French rock band with a guitar/bass/hurdy-gurdy/drums lineup, and it's great (and let's not forget the all HG band called simply "Hurdy Gurdy"). You can really get a very broad range of sounds out of a hurdy gurdy, so even though you proposed it as a joke, a concerto for one isn't a bad idea at all.
And Jackmormon's right; the viola is a great instrument and female violists of the woman persuasion are always, always, stone cold hotties. For proof you need look no further than JM herself.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 8:22 AM
No, no, I love instruments that are poorly designed, acoustically flawed and technologically obsolete.
I've become convinced that Joey D must be thinking of the wrong instrument. The viola uses the exact same technology as the violin, the cello and the double bass. So if it's obsolete then he's just writing off the whole string section.
And even if you are really talking about violas, Joe, what do you propose to put between the second violins and the cellos on stage? Third violins? What to do about the range gap that would leave?
And poorly designed and acoustically flawed? It's the same design as a violin, just slightly larger and lower strung, therefore not screechy like its smaller cousin.
None of the above is meant to make light of the coolness of hurdy gurdys, of course.
I'm kind of hoping that Joe plays a brass instrument, so we can bust up his omberture too!
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 2:31 PM
Nice try, Wolfson, but I'm not sending you pictures of my tits.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 4:48 PM
Mitch, see here for the viola problem. It's not the basic design, it's that the vla is asked to produce beyond its playable size.
Just to nerd out a little bit, I mention that the bass different from vln, vla, and vc: it has sloped shoulders and is tuned in fourths.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 5:32 PM
I say it's a big fiddle, and I say to hell with it.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 5:41 PM
Maybe Joe is thinking of the viol. Without the little-a.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 8:16 PM
49-51: Is not the bass technically a contrabass viol?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 07-22-06 8:27 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!1!
Posted by Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 5:20 AM
IIRC the reason the bass is so odd is that it's a hybrid of what would be the bass member of the vln/vla/vlc family, and what would be a contrabass viol. Hence there are different, uh, backs or some shit floating around? And I think not all designs have the same sort of sloped shoulders?
What I want to know is, what technology has replaced the viola? Amplified violas?
JM: whyever not? Bphd sent me a picture of her tits and look at all the great things that are happening for her! NTM it would be so little trouble for you, and would make me so happy.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 6:32 AM
I'm kind of hoping that Joe plays a brass instrument, so we can bust up his omberture too!
Embouchure, cf.
Posted by Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 9:11 AM
So now the argument is that I should make an offering of tittie-photos, for good fortune? It would be pretty great if you managed to convince people to do that. Other people, I mean.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 12:51 PM
Hey! Are you somehow not satisfied with my tit photos, Ben? You ingrate.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 12:56 PM
Yeah, it's like a chain letter kind of thing, except with proven results.
Honestly, I think you should consider it. And when I say "consider it" I mean "do it".
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 12:56 PM
It's not that I'm not satisfied with your photo, B, it's that I'm not satisfied with my lack of photos of JM.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 12:57 PM
LOL!! I almost fell out of my seat reading this comment thread!! Anyways, to quote Ben Wolfson (#46): "the viola is a great instrument and female violists of the woman persuasion are always, always, stone cold hotties"... I played the viola for 15 years, so I'll take that as a compliment:)
I'm not familiar with this piece. But, in my opinion, it is easier for a musician to make the transition from one clef to another if it is on the same note. But, if there are measures of rest after that, I'ml just as confused as you are. That is just odd.
Posted by The Lone Beader | Link to this comment | 07-23-06 3:55 PM
The tenor clef would make more sense if after the rest the part continued in tenor clef. Copyists sometimes do this to give musicians warning that they're going to be playing in another clef when they come back in.
Or, they're fucking with you.
Posted by bandcamp | Link to this comment | 07-25-06 11:33 AM