I have a friend who lived in Rotterdam, and she said that the changing room where she did yoga was not segregated by sex. Some people changed in the toilets but other people changed right out in the open.
This discussion always seems to happen on the liberated-to-prudish axis, with people falling on the "prudish" side always expressing their preferences apologetically, without being able to really justify them. Do people really believe that "liberated" is the ideal? Are there good reasons to be more "modest"?
I'll add that though I'm pretty prudish generally, I think I'm about in the middle of the locker-room comfort spectrum. However long it takes me to change into and out of my suit is however long it takes. I'm not one of those guys who tries to minimize the amount of time he's naked, but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink.
My reaction to B's post was similar to Becks's; it was a good post, but I couldn't really sympathize since I'm much more the hide-the-nakedness type. It's probably just part of my overall shyness.
Oh, and as to the issue in B's post, as I said in a comment over there: if you're going to have an upper limit for the age of children in the opposite sex locker room, then you also need to provide family changing rooms.
I'll get the ball rolling and answer my own question. I really want there to be such a thing as "ugliness," so I don't like the "be comfortable with your body, no matter what" arguments, but I recognize that the forces of body shame are totally kicking ass in this culture, so I don't feel a need to fight this particular fight. We could stand to relax a bit.
I assume the roots of all these attitudes are simply in how you were raised. I did not come from a naked family. Children in my house were dressed before they left the bedroom. Parents didn't even walk around in their underwear. As a result, I am still fairly uncomfortable with nudity in semi-public situations. Oh well.
I always go with the ethic of the places I'm in. If the people have decided to be naked, I can do that. If I'm with people of my background, i do what they do. I dont really see the value in what B did, being aggressively naked in a place where that is not the convention.
(Although, honestly, the idea of B being agressively naked suddenly sounds like a bit of a turn on.)
Lordamighty, if you can't be naked in a swimming pool changing room, something is terribly wrong.
There are two questions though: 1) Is "liberated" really the way to go, but more to the point here 2) Is there an issue of etiquette here? You probably wouldn't say "something is terribly wrong" is you went to Japan and discovered very different modesty rules, right?
Nothing to do with liberation, ogged. It's a changing room. Being naked in a changing room is like passing gas in a bathroom. It's the one place you don't have to apologize or ask permission.
I used to be really really body conscious growing up. The fact that I was borderline autistic as a pre-pubscent helped, and, of course, I was badly oppressed as a grade-school student, and thus was utterly terrified of being in a vulnerable position vis a vis my classmates (I loathed the word 'peers') in gym class locker rooms.
Eventually I grew up, out of my autism (thank the Goddess), got a bit more comfortable in my body, went to college in WA, where the people are civilized, got cruised by some people I fancied in turn, and decided that I wanted to be more comfortable being naked. I can't really say what I did, I just let myself stop caring.
"but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink."
You will be.
A lot of this is age. I'm one of the old guys in my locker room. I peel my clothes off and head to the shower with my towel over my shoulder; start the shower and while I'm waiting for the hot water to make its way to the shower head, wander off to a urinal. The young kids wriggle in and out of their kit wrapped in a towel. They still think people are looking at them.
Bitch's post was partly about how she was now one of the older women and relaxed about it.
But apo, my point was just that there was clearly an established etiquette where B swam, and you feel comfortable passing judgement on it, whereas you wouldn't if it were clearly a "different" culture. And yes, changing rooms are where you can be naked, but that's too simple, because part of the point here is that there are lots of ways to be naked in a changing room. I'm really not massively invested in this, just arguing...
My most embarrassing locker room experience: last Christmas, someone gave me a gift certificate to Bliss Spa and I decided to get a facial. I was not expecting that Bliss would have a communal health-club-style changing room (spas like that usually have private rooms), the flimsiest see-through robes ever, and that I would be expected to get naked just for a freakin' facial with no massage so I went wearing some really old and ugly end-of-the-laundry-cycle underwear, not realizing it was going to be on public display through my transparent robe for all of the afternoon. Bah!
I think nudity is contextual. Backstage with a million fellow performers, frantically peeling out of a sweaty costume, hustling to go back onstage -- you bet I'd look askance at someone who wanted to find a "private" place to change. In a locker room -- eh; there's a fairly wide range of normal.
What's a bit harder to figure out is the line of disrespect. When (if ever) is my nudity "disrespectful" to you? I.e., when does it make you so uncomfortable that my infliciting it on you/your child is the equivalent of, I dunno, shouting ethnic slurs in your vicinity?
(N.b. I'm confident that the answer is not: "Nursing in public.")
Like Ogged, I'm in the middle of the changing room specttrum.
I'm not fussed about being naked or about communal showers but I won't wander around naked otherwise.
Guys, I suspect, have different attitudes to women.
I was amazed at my school when we guys used the girls' changing rooms once during a volleyball match [no girls were present].
They had separate shower cubicles and relatively private changing spaces.
The guys' was just a big room with benches and a communal shower.
Ex g/friends of mine have remarked -- with surprise -- at finding changing rooms with communal showers so I presume the 'cubicle' versus 'big trough with sprinklers' female/male distinction holds in quite a few places.
Man, we have to introduce the communal sauna to these people. I spent a few years helping americans acclimate to Finland and it takes about a semester to shake most of the body issues out of them. Two semesters and they will be up for co-ed saunas with naked snow rolling and lake jumping.
It still warms my heart to remember one of the most proper southern belles proclaim as the guy for Idaho came bolting out of the forest. "He was like a primeval man coming out of the trees!" Yeah, we were doing the sauna thing Becks-style but nobody thought a thing about the nudity involved.
It is had to imaging that people are concerned about this kind of thing here at the Mineshaft.
but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink.
It does seem to be an age thing, doesn't it? The only woman I've seen wandering around naked in the locker room was once, and she had to have been in her 60s.
I'm pretty sure the nudity thing varies by region. I'm somewhere between Becks & B on this. Doing the junior-high bra shuffle, not so much. I'm not any better at it than I was in junior high. But I would get probably dressed before fixing my hair or makeup (B mentioned this was weird in the post; many people go back to work after hitting the gym mid-day, so it didn't strike me as all that odd.).
It wouldn't bother me exactly, but it would strike me as weird were someone parading around: see me violate a taboo. I've been in a number of gyms and I've never seen it besides that one woman. And I don't think it's a sign of an unenlightened mind if someone prefers a partially private changing area.
(Bringing a full change of clothes into one of three bathroom stalls at a small gym, however, dude, people need to pee, no one is seriously looking at your boobs.)
Sauna schmauna. I go to work naked. All those people who are ashamed of their bodies wear clothes on the Metro. Me, I am comfortable with my pot-bellied body. "Waddya mean it isn't appropriate," I ask. Winters I make a small conscession to the weather by wrapping myself in a Hudson Bay blanket and wearing boots.
At a 100 degrees below zero, I buttoned up my vest.
For some reason the following anecdotes seem relevant.
My partner had a unilateral mastectomy following breast cancer. She opted against reconstructive surgery and doesn't like wearing a prosthesis because she finds it uncomfortable. As a result, she's often noticeably and distinctly single breasted. It's quite obvious when she wears a swimming suit. I think she does make some people uncomfortable.
An old friend of mine had a double mastectomy following breast cancer. She chose reconstructive surgery. Her explanation was that as a teacher of junior high school students it was practically a job requirement - her students would freak out could she not pass for normal.
Both are in their mid to late 50s. It's not quite nakedness, but yet both stories involve revealing or concealing [defective] bodies. Where's Goffman when we need him?
Because these are others' secrets, I think I must be anonymous here.
That mastectomy story reminds me of something I considered once. If I lost an eye, would I go with the glass eye, or the eyepatch? I think I decided on the glass eye, because then I could tap my eye with a knife like Bill the Butcher.
I like walking around naked in the locker room, and I like taking naked saunas. Know why? Schadenfreude. That's why old men like it too.
They're groping me with their eyes! And hating every flabby, untoned second of it!
I'm going to stand in the middle of the locker room spectrum, too. I do as the Romans do (metaphorical Romans, that is. Not those actual Romans who get naked no matter what the circumstances). If there's no definite trend among the other locker room denizens, I'll tend to go around with just a wrapped towel since I think that's the best trade-off between convenience and modesty.
I join teofilo and Josh in being interested to hear an expanded version of why -gg-d wants there to be such a thing as ugliness.
I'd be interested in this too, but I personally just can't imagine a world without ugliness. Can anyone else? I mean, won't there always be people who we'd want to see naked and others who we'd really prefer would keep all their clothes on? Even if you grow apathetic to nudity, there's still some definite aesthetic judgement that can be done.
Hrm. I'm again, pretty middle of the road. At the gym, if I'm not actively changing, I have a towel at least vaguely clutched around myself. On the other hand, I'm doing that because it seems the done thing to do, rather than out of any actual modesty -- it's a locker room, and we're all women: I don't care who sees me naked or vice versa.
Someone at B's mentioned Loehmann's -- a discount store in the Bronx famous for its communal dressing rooms. I love that place; you end up with total strangers telling you not to buy the dress you're trying on, because it makes your ass look fat, but that you should try the skirt they brought in -- it doesn't work on them, but on you it might look good. It's totally unselfconscious and friendly on a good day, and it's great for people-watching in the sense of translating from naked bodies to what the same person looks like clothed.
I want us to acknowledge ugliness because, guess what, there fucking is. "Be comfortable no matter what" or "all healthy people are beautiful"-- these things deserve the most forceful negation sign I can stick in front of them.
This is not the same as wanting there to be such a thing as ugliness, but I suspect Ogged has something like this in mind, only his version is full of Persian cunning and guile.
I haven't been in a locker room in years, so I'm not sure what my preference is for level of personal nudity. I'm also kind of ambivalent about the theoretical issue; on the one hand, less body-shame seems like a good thing, but on the other, there are conventions in some places that encourage a high level of modesty, and I'm not as eager as some to just reject that out of hand if it works for those people.
I can see wanting to disagree with 'all healthy people are beautiful' but what's wrong with 'be comfortable no matter what'? Lots of ugly women changing at Loehmanns, but that's no reason they shouldn't be naked where other people can see them.
Oh christ, I'm going to have to defend this shitter of a thesis, aren't I? Perhaps "discomfort" is the wrong attitude to recommend in response to one's own ugliness, but the view is that (a) ugliness is a bad thing, though far from the worst thing, and (b) some kind of self-directed negative attitude (shame?) is warranted because of this. Ugly people should surely be free to use the changing room, and no one's suggested building one's emotional life around one's ugliness-- but it's a flaw nonetheless.
Well, the level of modesty required to get bothered by the fact that other people are naked in a changing room is kind of extreme, and anyone making an issue of it is being very odd.
Seriously, I actually have a slightly different objection from Labs. I don't really want people to feel any shame for being ugly; I just want us to admit/acknowledge/not deny that there is such a thing as ugliness, because it seems of a piece, conceptually, with maintaining standards in general.
Pro-ugliness people: What's the practical effect of all this? What do we gain from having ugliness as a concept, and what would we lose if we got rid of it?
I don't really want people to feel any shame for being ugly; I just want us to admit/acknowledge/not deny that there is such a thing as ugliness, because it seems of a piece, conceptually, with maintaining standards in general.
While I agree with you that there is such a thing as ugliness, I think that while you may not affirmatively *want* people to feel any shame for being ugly, their feeling shame is a necessary corollary of your desire that we acknowledge the existence of ugliness. Either that, or (as I see it) you have to argue that people shouldn't feel shame for not meeting a given standard. (And if they don't, then what are standards for?)
That is, a world without ugliness would effectively be a world where everyone has beer goggles on all the time. While this is most definitely not our world and never will be, I don't see how it's any worse.
I took the "I want there to be such a thing as ugliness" at a very metaphysical level: we wouldn't want to live in some world where ugliness didn't exist. (Not where it wasn't acknowledge, but where it didn't exist.) I guess that wasn't the intended meaning, but I think it is an interesting one.
The underlying assumption, following what LB said, was that ugliness has to exist for beauty to exist. I'm not sure that is entirely true. At the very least, I think there are some aesthetic qualities we perceive on a relative scale, so that they have to be compared to something worse, and others that we can perceive on an absolute scale. It just looks good without context. It might also help for the latter that there are different kinds of positive aethetic qualities that we can all contrast with each other, without ever having to compare them to ugliness.
I actually got into a discussion about this with my friend Ellie just about a week ago -- she was poking fun at my tendency to dress modestly. (Well, with the exception that I usually realize things are more low-cut than I first thought after I left the house.) I've gotten better in the last year or so, but both Ellie and my roommate used to say I dressed more like I was in my 40s than my 20s and both still give me crap about buying shirts they think are too baggy and stuff. I told her about the similar conversations with my roommate and that I kind of admired my roommate for feeling comfortable enough in her own skin to wear things I never would, even though she's about 50 lbs. heavier than I am. Ellie's reaction was one of OMG, you shouldn't admire that, you should put a proper level of shame into the girl.
I think that while you may not affirmatively *want* people to feel any shame for being ugly, their feeling shame is a necessary corollary of your desire that we acknowledge the existence of ugliness. Either that, or (as I see it) you have to argue that people shouldn't feel shame for not meeting a given standard. (And if they don't, then what are standards for?)
Shame isn't the only available sanction, is it? They could just realize that there are certain restaurants they shouldn't go to, for example.
It's kind of weird how nobody seems to be sympathizing much with the ugly people; I doubt they are quite as enamored of the concept of ugliness as attractive people are. I am of course strikingly handsome, so I don't know this from personal experience, but I'm also known to be a ninny, so you can see why I would worry about this.
1. My niece has a housemate from what used to be East Germany, who reportedly is halfway out of her clothes by the time the door shuts behind her coming home from a day at work. The housemate says its a common regional custom to be as naked as possible as often as possible.
2. I haven't been in a locker room for quite a while, but have become more self-conscious than I used to be. I stopped walking naked around the house at night when my daughter was in her mid-teens, and likely to be up late too.
3. In my early to mid-20s, I was publicly naked with friends and strangers fairly often. It was a better world, but what can you do?
90 -- I can't imagine someone so ugly that I couldn't be in the same place with them naked. It's not like you have to look. Then again, maybe I don't have your good looks to fall back on, and so maybe I have to make allowances.
I went once or twice to ladies' night at the Russian bath house on Thirteenth Street. As I recall, it was a mix of people naked or in bathing suits. There was a naked anorexic regular who would sit around outside the sauna and frankly check everyone out, clearly scorning us all.
The whole place was kind of attractively shabby, with a juice bar where you could get shots of vodka. A sauna, a freezing cold plunge pool fed by mysterious underground springs, and masseuses to beat you with birch twigs, should you wish it.
Teo, it's touching for you to be so concerned, but almost seriously, this is part of the problem:
I doubt they are quite as enamored of the concept of ugliness
My point, and I think part of Ogged's, is that the judgments are there, and pretending that they're not is a kind of bad faith that's far worse than ugliness. You can make your peace with ugliness, and more power to you, but this isn't the same thing as pretending that there is no such thing.
I'll defend ugliness thusly: what the fuck are you on about, Labs, and to a lesser extent ogged?
You both want to seem to retain the ability to call people uglly and make them feel small amount of shame so we can maintain... standards? To what end?
Obviously, you two are not cretins, so you're not going to demand that ugly people not use a changing room or go out in public. You're also not the sort than normally praise anorexia or extreme metrosexual (god i hate that phrase.)
So what's the upshot of this? Just to have someone realize they're not handsome or pretty and walk around with a slightly bruised soul? Or do you just want to retain your ability to laugh (privately) at obese people in spandex?
Are you just talking about having to accept 'fat' as 'beautiful?'
If you're just tired of having to pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops and should be celebrated, okay, but blink blink what are you on about? No one asks you pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops. It's not like making fun of chubby people has gone out of American society or something.
My level of naked-ness comfort depends on where the locker/changing room is. At the gym in general, no problem. At the gym at my office... I for some reason don't want to see the people I work with naked, nor vice versa.
No one asks you pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops. It's not like making fun of chubby people has gone out of American society or something.
I actually wonder how long that can last, given they're the ones with the increasing numbers. Fortunately, the holdouts will be able to mock and then run away.
I for some reason don't want to see the people I work with naked, nor vice versa
I've run into a co-worker and the boss's wife; the first in the locker room while I was changing, the other at the pool, while I was wearing my, uh, form-fitting bathing suit. I was a big man, and pretended then and later that they hadn't shamelessly stared at my crotch.
110: Through the protections of the 2nd amendment! Mockers running amok!
109: There is no natural law for beauty standards. Accepting that there are meaningful standards, though, leads to often to people judging themselves against airbrushed ideals. I'd rather see people on the shore in wholly unflattering swimsuits ('cause oh good lord does it happen...) than have a little sister develop an eating disorder because she doesn't meet a standard and the narrative is that that's a thing to be sad about.
Cala, you gnarled monster, it's not about pointing and laughing, it's about not succumbing to "everyone is beautiful, everyone's opinion is equally valid, we're all ok" vapidity.
114: Disagreement within the discourse is not disagreement about it. You could convince me that my standards are incorrect, but this involves being committed to the existence of some standard or other. (And you won't convince me by appealing to the wrong kind of reason, e.g., that your preferred standards have beneficial health effects, but that's another point.)
I can get rejecting the first part of the vapidity, but not the second. I don't get why it shouldn't be okay to say, 'I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern, but that doesn't matter because I play a mean lute. Tra-la.' That seems sensible, but I'm not getting why we need to reject the 'we're all okay.' part of the narrative.
19 gets it exactly right. For god's sake, people, I wasn't being "aggressively nude." I wrapped a fucking towel around myself to walk back from the shower. I was being nude in a locker room with a little kid. (Who does not, in fact, stare.)
On the "ugly" thing, in all honesty, I think very, very few people are "ugly." Most people are somewhere in the range of normal, and the whole "we must maintain the reality of ugly" thing is just awful. Especially given that I have yet to meet someone who thinks they are more attractive than they really are, or even *as* attractive as they really are. Most people have pretty poor self-images, attractiveness-wise, and insisting that "ugly" is anything more than a rare misfortune doesn't help, dudes.
I do, however, reserve the right to say that people in parts of the country where being naked in a locker room is considered "aggressive" are idiots.
I was a big man, and pretended then and later that they hadn't shamelessly stared at my crotch.
The part of the story he's leaving out is that he had hooked his thumb in the front of his suit and was subtly letting the weight of his hand drag it down. The gyrations probably didn't help either.
Is there a non-confrontational, non-mean, non-anorexia-inducing way to hint to say, a little sister, that she's noticeably putting on the usual college weight + some and she either needs to start exercising or wear a larger size of jeans that don't give her the muffin top effect? She's not heavy by any means, but it's easier to stay at a healthy weight at 20 than pack on more pounds by 25 and then try to lose it.
Nameless one, putting on weight at 25 is hardly a problem. I've never heard a good way to tell someone they're gaining weight. Generally, they are well friggin aware. But telling people they look good/slimmer can be a nice way to encourage them, if you're not smarmy about it.
I don't get why it shouldn't be okay to say, 'I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern, but that doesn't matter because I play a mean lute. Tra-la.' That seems sensible, but I'm not getting why we need to reject the 'we're all okay.' part of the narrative.
But that's the thing, by saying "I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern," they're accepting not everyone is equally beautiful.
It's no big deal. I have come to terms with the fact that not everyone's children are as cute as mine.
134: I honestly think that it's doing no one favors to express concern about their weight. Why must she lose it at all?
FWIW, I weighed about 40 lbs more at 25 than I do now. I was happy with that weight, I'm happy with this one. As far as I can tell, I lost the weight b/c I had a kid. Go figure.
Cala expresses my views better than I have. The main thing I'm wondering is who you're arguing against. Who is it that's saying "Everyone is beautiful"? No one here, as far as I can tell, so by making such a big deal about needing ugliness as a concept all you're doing in practical terms is making people feel bad about their appearance.
Because she's 4'11'' and it can't be healthy if she keeps it up. This is not something I normally give a damn about, and in all honesty, she's still pretty small. If she were exercising, I wouldn't even blink, but it's the not exercising that worries me.
As per BPhD, people putting on weight do usually know they are putting on weight.
I'm about 25lbs heavier than I ought to be and every single member of my extended family -- including all of my in-laws, in fact, especially my fecking in-laws -- has mentioned it to me or in my hearing at least once.
It gets bloody irritating. Especially when I am a shit-load fitter/stronger/faster/more-flexible than just about all of the people making the comments.
I suppose mentioning it to someone early enough might prevent them putting the weight on in the first place in the event that they aren't aware it's happening.
1. My niece has a housemate from what used to be East Germany, who reportedly is halfway out of her clothes by the time the door shuts behind her coming home from a day at work. The housemate says its a common regional custom to be as naked as possible as often as possible.
Last month when it was really hot in Berlin, and last summer when it was really hot in Chicago, the first thing I would do when I got home was disrobe. In fact I did that a little last year at Stanford, too, when my roommate wasn't around, and would loaf around Buck naked. It's the only rational behavior.
I solve the changing room issue by simply never exercising, much less going to a gym. I have been known to oil myself up and attempt to get people to scrape me down with a strigilis, though—it's surprisingly difficult to find takers, perhaps because I'm objectively ugly.
The Tom Waits show was fantastic last night, and Apo was very sweet to take care of the kids all weekend while I've been off living it up in Nashville. For that kindness, I'll forgive you for calling me a bitch.
Were there other little boys in the changing room? I don't remember how old PK is. I'm wondering if they may not have been horrified at your nudity but at a male person being in the changing room. If he's still shorter than knee height that would be silly of them, but that is one other possible interpretation of the scuttling discomfort.
I reign supreme as the only ugly fat woman on the internet. I can stop a thousand clocks with the merest glimpse of my visage. As for an objective standard of beauty, the cover of Cosmo is the closest thing to that we've got these days, and thanks to photoshop it is an inhuman standard. Hurrah for never being able to come within spitting distance of attractive due to blur and liquify tools!
I'm just going to blow everyone's mind here by telling them that I'm the sort of person who waltzes around naked all the time due to my hippie upbringing. shocking, I know. also, good night everybody!
After doing figure drawing classes I know that after about thirty seconds of 'omg naked people!' it's just blobby shapes and curves. They need to get over seeing naked women in the women's dressing room.
For god's sake, people, I wasn't being "aggressively nude." I wrapped a fucking towel around myself to walk back from the shower. I was being nude in a locker room with a little kid. (Who does not, in fact, stare.)
Sorry, I shouldn't have used that phrase. I think it just came out because it sounded cool.
I do still think that these convenstions are largely arbitrary, and there isn't much point in criticizing them. I have moved from a less naked subculture to a more naked one, and I'm just going with the flow, so why not go the other way.
I take it your reply is that these convenstions aren't really arbitrary, but reflect the degree of bodily self-loathing that the culture expects, or perhaps the degree of disconnection between individuals. To some extent I think you are right. That is, there are cultures where the rule that you must cover up stems from bodily self loathing, particularly cultures that impose different standards on men and women.
The thing is, I have a rough sense of where you live, and I wouldn't have thought you were surrounded by people who loathe their bodies. So maybe in this case, it is just an arbitrary thing.
That is, there are cultures where the rule that you must cover up stems from bodily self loathing, particularly cultures that impose different standards on men and women.
Maybe it's not self-loathing. Maybe I just don't wanna intimidate y'all with my perfect ass and amazing abs. RARARARARAR.
Seriously, I wouldn't doubt that part of it is self-loathing, but I don't think all of it is. I have no problems changing in a locker room, but after I've showered and dried off, I don't see much of a point to running around naked. (I do love the image of B brandishing her nudity like a pirate with a sword.) It's cold in there.
I don't know if it's *self*-loathing so much as what someone said over at my place, which is a sense of "privacy." It's just that I find a sense of privacy that's so hung up as to be uncomfortable with nudity *in a locker room* kind of ridiculous.
It ties in with a lot of other uptight (to me) social conventions that I won't get into because I'm supposed to fix lunch. One that springs quickly to mind, though, is that the first question on student evaluations is "does the instructor have respect for students," which, as far as I can tell, translates to, "is the instructor nice when you come to her with lame excuses for unfinished work." Excuses that include things like "it's just a busy time of the semester, you know, with midterms, and I just couldn't get this paper done." If you say "too bad," or, "well you've known about this paper since the beginning of the year," then your "respect" marks go down. You're supposed to murmur sympathetically instead.
Drives me bats.
(I know someone is going to ask how those two are related. They seem to me both to express an exaggerated, counterproductive sense of it being very important to be considerate and a kind of weird anxiety about anything that might be remotely seen as potentially leading to conflict.)
Labs- in what was is ugly not equal to overweight, in the context of this discussion regarding nakedness? Their faces are presumably already naked, so that's not at issue. What about a person's body can be ugly, if it is not overweight? Are you talking about phyiscal deformities? Because otherwise a not-overweight human body is not unattractive. And hating on deformed people is mean.
One problem with the "some people should cover up" position is that for every body type, there is someone out there who fetishizes it. I, for instance, am kinda into the muffin top effect.
1) the mass female changing rooms in the public pool when I was very young, where I saw unashamed female bodies for the first time--not scampering out of sight, not my mother's. It scared me, but I was very interested.
2) the only changing room for my ballet school: the first place I saw people I knew, outside my family, naked or mostly so. Nobody said anything, but it was of course a very judgmental space.
3) weirdly foundational: when my childhood friend and I caused an electrical fire in the toaster, my mother came nude out of the bath to combat it, and she was more embarrassed of having enjoyed spraying around the fire extinguisher (causing a terrible mess difficult to clean up) than of having done so stark naked.
4) going to a spa in West Germany and feeling very sorry for the embarrassment of the two American GIs there that day, and yet respecting them for having the courage to try the local culture--so many of them just stay on base. And they averted their eyes so adorably--it really helped me get over the more lascivious looks I got from the pensioners.
Here in New Zealand there was recently a semi-scandal when a mother helping her children get changed by the side of the pool was told that it wasn't allowed because there might be paedophiles watching with hidden cameras. There was a lot of comment of the "political correctness gone mad!" variety.
I let my daughters decide when they were ready to go into the changing rooms by themselves but I wish they hadn't because they take forever. I hang around outside kicking my heels and cursing that there's no way to tell them to hurry up.
It doesn't bother me to be nude in the locker room or to see other women nude in there either.
Why should it?
Were all women with the same body parts, and for the most part no-one is looking anyway.
Although I must admit to taking notice of one nude women in the locker room, but that's because it was the actress Courtney Thorne-Smith. She is a regular at my gym, and she will walk around the locker room totally naked all of the time, even doing her hair and makeup totally nude. So it is hard not to look in a case like that!
I have a friend who lived in Rotterdam, and she said that the changing room where she did yoga was not segregated by sex. Some people changed in the toilets but other people changed right out in the open.
Posted by dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:02 PM
This discussion always seems to happen on the liberated-to-prudish axis, with people falling on the "prudish" side always expressing their preferences apologetically, without being able to really justify them. Do people really believe that "liberated" is the ideal? Are there good reasons to be more "modest"?
I'll add that though I'm pretty prudish generally, I think I'm about in the middle of the locker-room comfort spectrum. However long it takes me to change into and out of my suit is however long it takes. I'm not one of those guys who tries to minimize the amount of time he's naked, but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:09 PM
My reaction to B's post was similar to Becks's; it was a good post, but I couldn't really sympathize since I'm much more the hide-the-nakedness type. It's probably just part of my overall shyness.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:10 PM
Oh, and as to the issue in B's post, as I said in a comment over there: if you're going to have an upper limit for the age of children in the opposite sex locker room, then you also need to provide family changing rooms.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:11 PM
Are there good reasons to be more "modest"?
I'll get the ball rolling and answer my own question. I really want there to be such a thing as "ugliness," so I don't like the "be comfortable with your body, no matter what" arguments, but I recognize that the forces of body shame are totally kicking ass in this culture, so I don't feel a need to fight this particular fight. We could stand to relax a bit.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:14 PM
I'll take this thread to 100 by myself, if I have to.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:15 PM
I assume the roots of all these attitudes are simply in how you were raised. I did not come from a naked family. Children in my house were dressed before they left the bedroom. Parents didn't even walk around in their underwear. As a result, I am still fairly uncomfortable with nudity in semi-public situations. Oh well.
I always go with the ethic of the places I'm in. If the people have decided to be naked, I can do that. If I'm with people of my background, i do what they do. I dont really see the value in what B did, being aggressively naked in a place where that is not the convention.
(Although, honestly, the idea of B being agressively naked suddenly sounds like a bit of a turn on.)
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:18 PM
I hate to horn in now that Ogged is finally on a flirtation that shows some promise.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:19 PM
Damn! Thwarted by 7! (Ah, good times.)
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:21 PM
I dont really see the value in what B did, being aggressively naked in a place where that is not the convention.
I agree. I do think it works as a good example of how she doesn't fit in where she is, though.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:22 PM
being aggressively naked in a place where that is not the convention.
Lordamighty, if you can't be naked in a swimming pool changing room, something is terribly wrong.
All you uptight squares make me sad.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:31 PM
It sounded like B didn't really realize right away that she was making people uncomfortable. Plus, she's a bitch.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:33 PM
What I was thinking as I read Dr. B.'s post was -- WAIT... was I raised by Dr. B? If so, that would explain a lot.
Posted by pjs | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:34 PM
Lordamighty, if you can't be naked in a swimming pool changing room, something is terribly wrong.
There are two questions though: 1) Is "liberated" really the way to go, but more to the point here 2) Is there an issue of etiquette here? You probably wouldn't say "something is terribly wrong" is you went to Japan and discovered very different modesty rules, right?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:37 PM
As another example of ogged's point, should people be naked in the pool itself? Why or why not?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:39 PM
We aren't in Japan, and she wasn't in the pool.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:40 PM
Is "liberated" really the way to go
Nothing to do with liberation, ogged. It's a changing room. Being naked in a changing room is like passing gas in a bathroom. It's the one place you don't have to apologize or ask permission.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:42 PM
I used to be really really body conscious growing up. The fact that I was borderline autistic as a pre-pubscent helped, and, of course, I was badly oppressed as a grade-school student, and thus was utterly terrified of being in a vulnerable position vis a vis my classmates (I loathed the word 'peers') in gym class locker rooms.
Eventually I grew up, out of my autism (thank the Goddess), got a bit more comfortable in my body, went to college in WA, where the people are civilized, got cruised by some people I fancied in turn, and decided that I wanted to be more comfortable being naked. I can't really say what I did, I just let myself stop caring.
Posted by NBarnes | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:44 PM
"but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink."
You will be.
A lot of this is age. I'm one of the old guys in my locker room. I peel my clothes off and head to the shower with my towel over my shoulder; start the shower and while I'm waiting for the hot water to make its way to the shower head, wander off to a urinal. The young kids wriggle in and out of their kit wrapped in a towel. They still think people are looking at them.
Bitch's post was partly about how she was now one of the older women and relaxed about it.
Posted by jim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:46 PM
But apo, my point was just that there was clearly an established etiquette where B swam, and you feel comfortable passing judgement on it, whereas you wouldn't if it were clearly a "different" culture. And yes, changing rooms are where you can be naked, but that's too simple, because part of the point here is that there are lots of ways to be naked in a changing room. I'm really not massively invested in this, just arguing...
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:48 PM
15 - For the underwater sex, obviously.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:51 PM
Jim, you might enjoy the comments to this post.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 5:53 PM
My most embarrassing locker room experience: last Christmas, someone gave me a gift certificate to Bliss Spa and I decided to get a facial. I was not expecting that Bliss would have a communal health-club-style changing room (spas like that usually have private rooms), the flimsiest see-through robes ever, and that I would be expected to get naked just for a freakin' facial with no massage so I went wearing some really old and ugly end-of-the-laundry-cycle underwear, not realizing it was going to be on public display through my transparent robe for all of the afternoon. Bah!
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:02 PM
21: Obviously. But this is not the underwater sex blog.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:02 PM
I dislike getting naked around men of my gender...
Posted by Scott Lemieux | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:02 PM
I think nudity is contextual. Backstage with a million fellow performers, frantically peeling out of a sweaty costume, hustling to go back onstage -- you bet I'd look askance at someone who wanted to find a "private" place to change. In a locker room -- eh; there's a fairly wide range of normal.
What's a bit harder to figure out is the line of disrespect. When (if ever) is my nudity "disrespectful" to you? I.e., when does it make you so uncomfortable that my infliciting it on you/your child is the equivalent of, I dunno, shouting ethnic slurs in your vicinity?
(N.b. I'm confident that the answer is not: "Nursing in public.")
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:09 PM
Like Ogged, I'm in the middle of the changing room specttrum.
I'm not fussed about being naked or about communal showers but I won't wander around naked otherwise.
Guys, I suspect, have different attitudes to women.
I was amazed at my school when we guys used the girls' changing rooms once during a volleyball match [no girls were present].
They had separate shower cubicles and relatively private changing spaces.
The guys' was just a big room with benches and a communal shower.
Ex g/friends of mine have remarked -- with surprise -- at finding changing rooms with communal showers so I presume the 'cubicle' versus 'big trough with sprinklers' female/male distinction holds in quite a few places.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:09 PM
Man, we have to introduce the communal sauna to these people. I spent a few years helping americans acclimate to Finland and it takes about a semester to shake most of the body issues out of them. Two semesters and they will be up for co-ed saunas with naked snow rolling and lake jumping.
It still warms my heart to remember one of the most proper southern belles proclaim as the guy for Idaho came bolting out of the forest. "He was like a primeval man coming out of the trees!" Yeah, we were doing the sauna thing Becks-style but nobody thought a thing about the nudity involved.
It is had to imaging that people are concerned about this kind of thing here at the Mineshaft.
Posted by Ukko | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:11 PM
but neither am I one of the old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink.
It does seem to be an age thing, doesn't it? The only woman I've seen wandering around naked in the locker room was once, and she had to have been in her 60s.
I'm pretty sure the nudity thing varies by region. I'm somewhere between Becks & B on this. Doing the junior-high bra shuffle, not so much. I'm not any better at it than I was in junior high. But I would get probably dressed before fixing my hair or makeup (B mentioned this was weird in the post; many people go back to work after hitting the gym mid-day, so it didn't strike me as all that odd.).
It wouldn't bother me exactly, but it would strike me as weird were someone parading around: see me violate a taboo. I've been in a number of gyms and I've never seen it besides that one woman. And I don't think it's a sign of an unenlightened mind if someone prefers a partially private changing area.
(Bringing a full change of clothes into one of three bathroom stalls at a small gym, however, dude, people need to pee, no one is seriously looking at your boobs.)
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:29 PM
Sauna schmauna. I go to work naked. All those people who are ashamed of their bodies wear clothes on the Metro. Me, I am comfortable with my pot-bellied body. "Waddya mean it isn't appropriate," I ask. Winters I make a small conscession to the weather by wrapping myself in a Hudson Bay blanket and wearing boots.
At a 100 degrees below zero, I buttoned up my vest.
Posted by md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:31 PM
I really want there to be such a thing as "ugliness,"
Why?
Posted by Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:43 PM
I was wondering the same thing.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:45 PM
I like walking around naked in the locker room, and I like taking naked saunas. Know why? Schadenfreude. That's why old men like it too.
When you're at a largely gay gym, the schadenfreude no longer works as well though.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:46 PM
I was amazed at my school when we guys used the girls' changing rooms once during a volleyball match [no girls were present].
They had separate shower cubicles and relatively private changing spaces.
The guys' was just a big room with benches and a communal shower.
Statistically, men are much more likely to go to prison. I think they're secretly preparing us for that possibility.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 6:55 PM
old dudes who gets naked and shaves and brushes his teeth at the sink
Isn't this S.O.P? I have shaved and brushed my teeth naked since I can remember, except during college when the bathroom was communal.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:10 PM
For some reason the following anecdotes seem relevant.
My partner had a unilateral mastectomy following breast cancer. She opted against reconstructive surgery and doesn't like wearing a prosthesis because she finds it uncomfortable. As a result, she's often noticeably and distinctly single breasted. It's quite obvious when she wears a swimming suit. I think she does make some people uncomfortable.
An old friend of mine had a double mastectomy following breast cancer. She chose reconstructive surgery. Her explanation was that as a teacher of junior high school students it was practically a job requirement - her students would freak out could she not pass for normal.
Both are in their mid to late 50s. It's not quite nakedness, but yet both stories involve revealing or concealing [defective] bodies. Where's Goffman when we need him?
Because these are others' secrets, I think I must be anonymous here.
Posted by anonymous | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:10 PM
Oh sorry -- I read that out of context. No, I don't shave & brush naked in the communal locker room.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:12 PM
Isn't this S.O.P? I have shaved and brushed my teeth naked since I can remember,
Uh, no.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:13 PM
That mastectomy story reminds me of something I considered once. If I lost an eye, would I go with the glass eye, or the eyepatch? I think I decided on the glass eye, because then I could tap my eye with a knife like Bill the Butcher.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:18 PM
I like walking around naked in the locker room, and I like taking naked saunas. Know why? Schadenfreude. That's why old men like it too.
They're groping me with their eyes! And hating every flabby, untoned second of it!
I'm going to stand in the middle of the locker room spectrum, too. I do as the Romans do (metaphorical Romans, that is. Not those actual Romans who get naked no matter what the circumstances). If there's no definite trend among the other locker room denizens, I'll tend to go around with just a wrapped towel since I think that's the best trade-off between convenience and modesty.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:18 PM
gswift -- are you talking about what you do at home, or what you do in the locker room?
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:18 PM
I join teofilo and Josh in being interested to hear an expanded version of why -gg-d wants there to be such a thing as ugliness.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:19 PM
At home, presumably. Tapping your glass eye with a knife is highly discouraged in the locker room.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:20 PM
gswift -- are you talking about what you do at home, or what you do in the locker room?
I was thinking the locker room, but I guess it applies to both.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:23 PM
43: It's discouraged in restaurants, too, but it can really help to get a waiter's attention.
Posted by jmcq | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:28 PM
Now that I think about it some more, it would also be awesome to wander a party sipping a martini that had a glass eye in it.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:28 PM
I join teofilo and Josh in being interested to hear an expanded version of why -gg-d wants there to be such a thing as ugliness.
I'd be interested in this too, but I personally just can't imagine a world without ugliness. Can anyone else? I mean, won't there always be people who we'd want to see naked and others who we'd really prefer would keep all their clothes on? Even if you grow apathetic to nudity, there's still some definite aesthetic judgement that can be done.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:30 PM
I don't shave & brush naked in the communal locker room.
I do, however, crap in the communal shower and mash it down the drain with my feet.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:31 PM
I really want there to be such a thing as "ugliness"
Why?
Societal approval for personal prejudices?
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:32 PM
I spy a tilted-head kitten.
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:33 PM
Hrm. I'm again, pretty middle of the road. At the gym, if I'm not actively changing, I have a towel at least vaguely clutched around myself. On the other hand, I'm doing that because it seems the done thing to do, rather than out of any actual modesty -- it's a locker room, and we're all women: I don't care who sees me naked or vice versa.
Someone at B's mentioned Loehmann's -- a discount store in the Bronx famous for its communal dressing rooms. I love that place; you end up with total strangers telling you not to buy the dress you're trying on, because it makes your ass look fat, but that you should try the skirt they brought in -- it doesn't work on them, but on you it might look good. It's totally unselfconscious and friendly on a good day, and it's great for people-watching in the sense of translating from naked bodies to what the same person looks like clothed.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:35 PM
I want us to acknowledge ugliness because, guess what, there fucking is. "Be comfortable no matter what" or "all healthy people are beautiful"-- these things deserve the most forceful negation sign I can stick in front of them.
This is not the same as wanting there to be such a thing as ugliness, but I suspect Ogged has something like this in mind, only his version is full of Persian cunning and guile.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:39 PM
I am fully happy with our coming decrepitude and ensuing ugliness. Its a circle of life thing.
Posted by Ukko | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:39 PM
Right, right, what Labs said; sorry to be unclear.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:42 PM
Ogged doesn't want to feel alone, is all.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:42 PM
I haven't been in a locker room in years, so I'm not sure what my preference is for level of personal nudity. I'm also kind of ambivalent about the theoretical issue; on the one hand, less body-shame seems like a good thing, but on the other, there are conventions in some places that encourage a high level of modesty, and I'm not as eager as some to just reject that out of hand if it works for those people.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:44 PM
I can see wanting to disagree with 'all healthy people are beautiful' but what's wrong with 'be comfortable no matter what'? Lots of ugly women changing at Loehmanns, but that's no reason they shouldn't be naked where other people can see them.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:46 PM
This isn't a question of beauty or body image. It's called a changing room for a reason.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:50 PM
Why are you so hung up about this, apo? It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:52 PM
Oh christ, I'm going to have to defend this shitter of a thesis, aren't I? Perhaps "discomfort" is the wrong attitude to recommend in response to one's own ugliness, but the view is that (a) ugliness is a bad thing, though far from the worst thing, and (b) some kind of self-directed negative attitude (shame?) is warranted because of this. Ugly people should surely be free to use the changing room, and no one's suggested building one's emotional life around one's ugliness-- but it's a flaw nonetheless.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:53 PM
Jesus Labs, you're a mean bastard.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:55 PM
Well, the level of modesty required to get bothered by the fact that other people are naked in a changing room is kind of extreme, and anyone making an issue of it is being very odd.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:56 PM
Also, I think cheating is wrong unless it's in a locker room.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:57 PM
62 to 59. And on 60, I dare you to defend that in a classroom.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:58 PM
63: And incorporates at least one cheerleader's uniform.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 7:59 PM
59: I'll ask you the same question, teo. 62 gets it exactly right.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:00 PM
Seriously, I actually have a slightly different objection from Labs. I don't really want people to feel any shame for being ugly; I just want us to admit/acknowledge/not deny that there is such a thing as ugliness, because it seems of a piece, conceptually, with maintaining standards in general.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:02 PM
See my 56; I don't really care.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:02 PM
68: Yeah, just after hitting post, I realized "Wait a minute. That's funny."
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:04 PM
I can't stop laughing at 60 and 61. Maybe it's the sense of an impending shitstorm making me giddy.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:05 PM
Sure, once you deny that ugliness exists you're essentially denying that beauty exists, and where's the fun in that? But Labs is just weird.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:05 PM
Pro-ugliness people: What's the practical effect of all this? What do we gain from having ugliness as a concept, and what would we lose if we got rid of it?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:06 PM
Standards without sanctions are meaningless, Ogged. We must enforce our values. Now take off your pants.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:06 PM
what would we lose if we got rid of it?
Motorhead.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:07 PM
Teo, imagine what that would be like, to have no concept here. It's really, really odd. Wingmen everywhere would be totally confused, for one.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:10 PM
64 gets it exactly right, no matter what the question. And the thread should have ended on that note.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:10 PM
And the idea of 'beer goggles' would lose all meaning.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:10 PM
I mean 65. I ban myself.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:11 PM
I don't really want people to feel any shame for being ugly; I just want us to admit/acknowledge/not deny that there is such a thing as ugliness, because it seems of a piece, conceptually, with maintaining standards in general.
While I agree with you that there is such a thing as ugliness, I think that while you may not affirmatively *want* people to feel any shame for being ugly, their feeling shame is a necessary corollary of your desire that we acknowledge the existence of ugliness. Either that, or (as I see it) you have to argue that people shouldn't feel shame for not meeting a given standard. (And if they don't, then what are standards for?)
Posted by Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:12 PM
I remain unconvinced.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:13 PM
That is, a world without ugliness would effectively be a world where everyone has beer goggles on all the time. While this is most definitely not our world and never will be, I don't see how it's any worse.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:15 PM
Gotta have some shame involved, or else people aren't going to cover that shit up.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:15 PM
(And if they don't, then what are standards for?)
To sort out who you can ogle in the locker room and who you can't. Duh.
Posted by JAC | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:15 PM
I took the "I want there to be such a thing as ugliness" at a very metaphysical level: we wouldn't want to live in some world where ugliness didn't exist. (Not where it wasn't acknowledge, but where it didn't exist.) I guess that wasn't the intended meaning, but I think it is an interesting one.
The underlying assumption, following what LB said, was that ugliness has to exist for beauty to exist. I'm not sure that is entirely true. At the very least, I think there are some aesthetic qualities we perceive on a relative scale, so that they have to be compared to something worse, and others that we can perceive on an absolute scale. It just looks good without context. It might also help for the latter that there are different kinds of positive aethetic qualities that we can all contrast with each other, without ever having to compare them to ugliness.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:19 PM
48 gets it exactly right.
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:24 PM
I actually got into a discussion about this with my friend Ellie just about a week ago -- she was poking fun at my tendency to dress modestly. (Well, with the exception that I usually realize things are more low-cut than I first thought after I left the house.) I've gotten better in the last year or so, but both Ellie and my roommate used to say I dressed more like I was in my 40s than my 20s and both still give me crap about buying shirts they think are too baggy and stuff. I told her about the similar conversations with my roommate and that I kind of admired my roommate for feeling comfortable enough in her own skin to wear things I never would, even though she's about 50 lbs. heavier than I am. Ellie's reaction was one of OMG, you shouldn't admire that, you should put a proper level of shame into the girl.
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:29 PM
Yeah, put that chunky whore in her place.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:37 PM
I think that while you may not affirmatively *want* people to feel any shame for being ugly, their feeling shame is a necessary corollary of your desire that we acknowledge the existence of ugliness. Either that, or (as I see it) you have to argue that people shouldn't feel shame for not meeting a given standard. (And if they don't, then what are standards for?)
Shame isn't the only available sanction, is it? They could just realize that there are certain restaurants they shouldn't go to, for example.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:39 PM
Gawddammit. Do you know how much I hate it when y'all leave me hanging out there with a comment like that? I think I'm having heart palpitations.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:49 PM
It's kind of weird how nobody seems to be sympathizing much with the ugly people; I doubt they are quite as enamored of the concept of ugliness as attractive people are. I am of course strikingly handsome, so I don't know this from personal experience, but I'm also known to be a ninny, so you can see why I would worry about this.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:50 PM
That last sentence isn't very felicitous. Good thing I've got my looks to fall back on.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:51 PM
1. My niece has a housemate from what used to be East Germany, who reportedly is halfway out of her clothes by the time the door shuts behind her coming home from a day at work. The housemate says its a common regional custom to be as naked as possible as often as possible.
2. I haven't been in a locker room for quite a while, but have become more self-conscious than I used to be. I stopped walking naked around the house at night when my daughter was in her mid-teens, and likely to be up late too.
3. In my early to mid-20s, I was publicly naked with friends and strangers fairly often. It was a better world, but what can you do?
Posted by CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:53 PM
Move to East Germany, apparently.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:54 PM
90 -- I can't imagine someone so ugly that I couldn't be in the same place with them naked. It's not like you have to look. Then again, maybe I don't have your good looks to fall back on, and so maybe I have to make allowances.
Posted by CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:57 PM
I don't understand how 94 is a response to 90.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 8:58 PM
I went once or twice to ladies' night at the Russian bath house on Thirteenth Street. As I recall, it was a mix of people naked or in bathing suits. There was a naked anorexic regular who would sit around outside the sauna and frankly check everyone out, clearly scorning us all.
The whole place was kind of attractively shabby, with a juice bar where you could get shots of vodka. A sauna, a freezing cold plunge pool fed by mysterious underground springs, and masseuses to beat you with birch twigs, should you wish it.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:02 PM
Should I guess from this thread that you're all really attractive? I need to calibrate my shame.
Posted by jmcq | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:06 PM
Aristotle tells us that it is impossible for an ugly person to be happy. Isn't that sanction enough, without piling shame on top of that?
Posted by Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:13 PM
24 shamitrons ought to do it. Maybe 25.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:13 PM
Teo, it's touching for you to be so concerned, but almost seriously, this is part of the problem:
I doubt they are quite as enamored of the concept of ugliness
My point, and I think part of Ogged's, is that the judgments are there, and pretending that they're not is a kind of bad faith that's far worse than ugliness. You can make your peace with ugliness, and more power to you, but this isn't the same thing as pretending that there is no such thing.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:14 PM
I'll defend ugliness thusly: what the fuck are you on about, Labs, and to a lesser extent ogged?
You both want to seem to retain the ability to call people uglly and make them feel small amount of shame so we can maintain... standards? To what end?
Obviously, you two are not cretins, so you're not going to demand that ugly people not use a changing room or go out in public. You're also not the sort than normally praise anorexia or extreme metrosexual (god i hate that phrase.)
So what's the upshot of this? Just to have someone realize they're not handsome or pretty and walk around with a slightly bruised soul? Or do you just want to retain your ability to laugh (privately) at obese people in spandex?
Are you just talking about having to accept 'fat' as 'beautiful?'
If you're just tired of having to pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops and should be celebrated, okay, but blink blink what are you on about? No one asks you pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops. It's not like making fun of chubby people has gone out of American society or something.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:16 PM
Should I guess from this thread that you're all really attractive? I need to calibrate my shame.
On the Internet, everybody's attractive.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:17 PM
I'm a smokin' old baldy.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:20 PM
Hey, sometimes it feels good to be on the winning side, Cala.
to retain the ability to call people uglly
Now, now. There are questions about truth and about assertibility, and we never said anything about being mean.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:22 PM
Or do you just want to retain your ability to laugh (privately) at obese people in spandex?
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:24 PM
On the Internet, everybody's attractive.
So, what are you wearing?
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:25 PM
You already have the right to think nasty thoughts, FL.
Do you just want the right to think nasty thoughts and not feel like a bad liberal weenie?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:26 PM
My level of naked-ness comfort depends on where the locker/changing room is. At the gym in general, no problem. At the gym at my office... I for some reason don't want to see the people I work with naked, nor vice versa.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:27 PM
It's more a point about coming to terms with standards that are going to be there whether we like them or not, I think.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:31 PM
No one asks you pretend that everyone looks good in tube tops. It's not like making fun of chubby people has gone out of American society or something.
I actually wonder how long that can last, given they're the ones with the increasing numbers. Fortunately, the holdouts will be able to mock and then run away.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:31 PM
110: but then you'll have to take a bus and two trains to get on their good side.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:33 PM
Also, I note for the record that the weight thing and the ugliness thing are distinct.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:34 PM
I for some reason don't want to see the people I work with naked, nor vice versa
I've run into a co-worker and the boss's wife; the first in the locker room while I was changing, the other at the pool, while I was wearing my, uh, form-fitting bathing suit. I was a big man, and pretended then and later that they hadn't shamelessly stared at my crotch.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:34 PM
110: Through the protections of the 2nd amendment! Mockers running amok!
109: There is no natural law for beauty standards. Accepting that there are meaningful standards, though, leads to often to people judging themselves against airbrushed ideals. I'd rather see people on the shore in wholly unflattering swimsuits ('cause oh good lord does it happen...) than have a little sister develop an eating disorder because she doesn't meet a standard and the narrative is that that's a thing to be sad about.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:38 PM
while I was wearing my, uh, form-fitting bathing suit
I hadn't really realized that you were in the speedo. Cripes, are you sure you don't have a black BMW?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:38 PM
Also, I note for the record that the weight thing and the ugliness thing are distinct.
I can see why you're making that move, but it's not like you can control how your face turns out, really.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:40 PM
Cala, you gnarled monster, it's not about pointing and laughing, it's about not succumbing to "everyone is beautiful, everyone's opinion is equally valid, we're all ok" vapidity.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:43 PM
114: Disagreement within the discourse is not disagreement about it. You could convince me that my standards are incorrect, but this involves being committed to the existence of some standard or other. (And you won't convince me by appealing to the wrong kind of reason, e.g., that your preferred standards have beneficial health effects, but that's another point.)
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:44 PM
In other words, "Everything is beautiful, in its own way" (sic).
Posted by jmcq | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:45 PM
116: Shame doesn't respect the boundaries of volition.
Actually, I said that because I like big butts.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:45 PM
119 to 117.
Posted by jmcq | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:45 PM
120: And you cannot lie!
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:46 PM
My gnarles are beautiful.
I can get rejecting the first part of the vapidity, but not the second. I don't get why it shouldn't be okay to say, 'I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern, but that doesn't matter because I play a mean lute. Tra-la.' That seems sensible, but I'm not getting why we need to reject the 'we're all okay.' part of the narrative.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:46 PM
19 gets it exactly right. For god's sake, people, I wasn't being "aggressively nude." I wrapped a fucking towel around myself to walk back from the shower. I was being nude in a locker room with a little kid. (Who does not, in fact, stare.)
On the "ugly" thing, in all honesty, I think very, very few people are "ugly." Most people are somewhere in the range of normal, and the whole "we must maintain the reality of ugly" thing is just awful. Especially given that I have yet to meet someone who thinks they are more attractive than they really are, or even *as* attractive as they really are. Most people have pretty poor self-images, attractiveness-wise, and insisting that "ugly" is anything more than a rare misfortune doesn't help, dudes.
I do, however, reserve the right to say that people in parts of the country where being naked in a locker room is considered "aggressive" are idiots.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:46 PM
I was a big man, and pretended then and later that they hadn't shamelessly stared at my crotch.
The part of the story he's leaving out is that he had hooked his thumb in the front of his suit and was subtly letting the weight of his hand drag it down. The gyrations probably didn't help either.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:48 PM
I was a big man
I confess that on first reading I thought this was meant to illustrate how ogged presented in his speedo.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:53 PM
I was a big man
With all the earnest types around here now, not even this fruit hangs low enough for anyone to pick.
Timbot, it's not a brief, more like biker shorts. But they are skin-tight.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:55 PM
On a related note:
Is there a non-confrontational, non-mean, non-anorexia-inducing way to hint to say, a little sister, that she's noticeably putting on the usual college weight + some and she either needs to start exercising or wear a larger size of jeans that don't give her the muffin top effect? She's not heavy by any means, but it's easier to stay at a healthy weight at 20 than pack on more pounds by 25 and then try to lose it.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:55 PM
128: No. What, you think she doesn't know what she looks like?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:56 PM
Nameless one, putting on weight at 25 is hardly a problem. I've never heard a good way to tell someone they're gaining weight. Generally, they are well friggin aware. But telling people they look good/slimmer can be a nice way to encourage them, if you're not smarmy about it.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:57 PM
128 me. And skin tight swim trunks aren't as scary as speedos. (and really hot on Olympic guys.)
And I'm not too earnest, it was just that the fruit hung so low that in going for it, I stepped on it and squished squoosh.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:57 PM
128: try "you should be ASHAMED."
Also, I'm all in favor of people making peace with ugliness in the way that I've made my peace with some of my many failings, as I've said.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:59 PM
On an unrelated note, have you guys seen the kitten fellatio at the Poor Man?
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 9:59 PM
Not so sure, B, or not so sure that she realizes that it's better to try to lose it now than just hope it comes off.
It's more the rate I'm mildly concerned about.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:01 PM
I don't get why it shouldn't be okay to say, 'I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern, but that doesn't matter because I play a mean lute. Tra-la.' That seems sensible, but I'm not getting why we need to reject the 'we're all okay.' part of the narrative.
But that's the thing, by saying "I'm not the prettiest bard in the tavern," they're accepting not everyone is equally beautiful.
It's no big deal. I have come to terms with the fact that not everyone's children are as cute as mine.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:02 PM
It's more the rate I'm mildly concerned about.
It's certainly true that sometimes people gain weight when they're depressed, but then you ought to just talk to her.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:03 PM
134: I honestly think that it's doing no one favors to express concern about their weight. Why must she lose it at all?
FWIW, I weighed about 40 lbs more at 25 than I do now. I was happy with that weight, I'm happy with this one. As far as I can tell, I lost the weight b/c I had a kid. Go figure.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:08 PM
Cala expresses my views better than I have. The main thing I'm wondering is who you're arguing against. Who is it that's saying "Everyone is beautiful"? No one here, as far as I can tell, so by making such a big deal about needing ugliness as a concept all you're doing in practical terms is making people feel bad about their appearance.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:10 PM
Because she's 4'11'' and it can't be healthy if she keeps it up. This is not something I normally give a damn about, and in all honesty, she's still pretty small. If she were exercising, I wouldn't even blink, but it's the not exercising that worries me.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:11 PM
This was all exploring an offhand remark of ogged's, teo. no axes ground here.
Time to sleep. Goodnight, you ugly bastards.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:16 PM
Cala, if you live in the same place, maybe you can work out together.
And I too am off to bed.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:17 PM
Goodnight Labs.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:18 PM
Goodnight ogged.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:18 PM
Labs needs his beauty rest.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:19 PM
wear a larger size of jeans that don't give her the muffin top effect
I love the phrase "muffin top". Not even sure why, just always makes me laugh.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:19 PM
As does Ogged. And as do I, actually.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:19 PM
I should sleep but I don't wanna. It's not like tomorrow isn't going to be chockfull of evaluating my sucky writing.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:21 PM
Jesus, you guys sure are party animals. It's Saturday night!
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-06 10:25 PM
As per BPhD, people putting on weight do usually know they are putting on weight.
I'm about 25lbs heavier than I ought to be and every single member of my extended family -- including all of my in-laws, in fact, especially my fecking in-laws -- has mentioned it to me or in my hearing at least once.
It gets bloody irritating. Especially when I am a shit-load fitter/stronger/faster/more-flexible than just about all of the people making the comments.
I suppose mentioning it to someone early enough might prevent them putting the weight on in the first place in the event that they aren't aware it's happening.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 2:25 AM
What you gon' do with all that ass?
All that ass inside them jeans?
I'm a make, make, make, make you scream
Make you scream, make you scream
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 3:05 AM
1. My niece has a housemate from what used to be East Germany, who reportedly is halfway out of her clothes by the time the door shuts behind her coming home from a day at work. The housemate says its a common regional custom to be as naked as possible as often as possible.
Last month when it was really hot in Berlin, and last summer when it was really hot in Chicago, the first thing I would do when I got home was disrobe. In fact I did that a little last year at Stanford, too, when my roommate wasn't around, and would loaf around Buck naked. It's the only rational behavior.
I solve the changing room issue by simply never exercising, much less going to a gym. I have been known to oil myself up and attempt to get people to scrape me down with a strigilis, though—it's surprisingly difficult to find takers, perhaps because I'm objectively ugly.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 5:20 AM
I was a big man
This was before the catheter, then?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 5:22 AM
On an unrelated note...
The Tom Waits show was fantastic last night, and Apo was very sweet to take care of the kids all weekend while I've been off living it up in Nashville. For that kindness, I'll forgive you for calling me a bitch.
See you in a few hours A.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:57 AM
um, 153 was me.
Posted by Roberta | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:57 AM
Every time ogged says "x is hot," forty people jump up and tell him he's high. Yet he wants to claim that there are standards for beauty.
Or is it that there are standards for ugly, but beauty is subjective? I'm confused.
Posted by slolernr | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:11 AM
The Tom Waits show was fantastic
I'm so envious.
On topic: I hear that some people think Tom Waits is ugly. Can we all agree that this is deeply, profoundly wrong?
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:22 AM
I can't recall ever seeing a person I considered ugly, not in real life at least. There are plain people and there are beautiful people.
Posted by David Weman | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:25 AM
Were there other little boys in the changing room? I don't remember how old PK is. I'm wondering if they may not have been horrified at your nudity but at a male person being in the changing room. If he's still shorter than knee height that would be silly of them, but that is one other possible interpretation of the scuttling discomfort.
I reign supreme as the only ugly fat woman on the internet. I can stop a thousand clocks with the merest glimpse of my visage. As for an objective standard of beauty, the cover of Cosmo is the closest thing to that we've got these days, and thanks to photoshop it is an inhuman standard. Hurrah for never being able to come within spitting distance of attractive due to blur and liquify tools!
Posted by winna | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:27 AM
I can't recall ever seeing a person I considered ugly, not in real life at least.
Aren't you Swedish? I'm not sure your experience in Sweden is the same as that of people on the outside.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:28 AM
I'm just going to blow everyone's mind here by telling them that I'm the sort of person who waltzes around naked all the time due to my hippie upbringing. shocking, I know. also, good night everybody!
Posted by alameida | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:31 AM
I finally went and read the thread.
After doing figure drawing classes I know that after about thirty seconds of 'omg naked people!' it's just blobby shapes and curves. They need to get over seeing naked women in the women's dressing room.
Posted by winna | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 8:52 AM
For god's sake, people, I wasn't being "aggressively nude." I wrapped a fucking towel around myself to walk back from the shower. I was being nude in a locker room with a little kid. (Who does not, in fact, stare.)
Sorry, I shouldn't have used that phrase. I think it just came out because it sounded cool.
I do still think that these convenstions are largely arbitrary, and there isn't much point in criticizing them. I have moved from a less naked subculture to a more naked one, and I'm just going with the flow, so why not go the other way.
I take it your reply is that these convenstions aren't really arbitrary, but reflect the degree of bodily self-loathing that the culture expects, or perhaps the degree of disconnection between individuals. To some extent I think you are right. That is, there are cultures where the rule that you must cover up stems from bodily self loathing, particularly cultures that impose different standards on men and women.
The thing is, I have a rough sense of where you live, and I wouldn't have thought you were surrounded by people who loathe their bodies. So maybe in this case, it is just an arbitrary thing.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 9:09 AM
That is, there are cultures where the rule that you must cover up stems from bodily self loathing, particularly cultures that impose different standards on men and women.
Maybe it's not self-loathing. Maybe I just don't wanna intimidate y'all with my perfect ass and amazing abs. RARARARARAR.
Seriously, I wouldn't doubt that part of it is self-loathing, but I don't think all of it is. I have no problems changing in a locker room, but after I've showered and dried off, I don't see much of a point to running around naked. (I do love the image of B brandishing her nudity like a pirate with a sword.) It's cold in there.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 9:33 AM
and would loaf around Buck naked.
Anyone else read this at first as Ben lounging around in the nude with LizardBreath's husband?
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 10:16 AM
Dream a bigger dream, Becks.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 10:32 AM
164: Yes. It's the capitalization.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 11:34 AM
I don't know if it's *self*-loathing so much as what someone said over at my place, which is a sense of "privacy." It's just that I find a sense of privacy that's so hung up as to be uncomfortable with nudity *in a locker room* kind of ridiculous.
It ties in with a lot of other uptight (to me) social conventions that I won't get into because I'm supposed to fix lunch. One that springs quickly to mind, though, is that the first question on student evaluations is "does the instructor have respect for students," which, as far as I can tell, translates to, "is the instructor nice when you come to her with lame excuses for unfinished work." Excuses that include things like "it's just a busy time of the semester, you know, with midterms, and I just couldn't get this paper done." If you say "too bad," or, "well you've known about this paper since the beginning of the year," then your "respect" marks go down. You're supposed to murmur sympathetically instead.
Drives me bats.
(I know someone is going to ask how those two are related. They seem to me both to express an exaggerated, counterproductive sense of it being very important to be considerate and a kind of weird anxiety about anything that might be remotely seen as potentially leading to conflict.)
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 11:58 AM
You should go the Becks route and punch those students in the head.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 12:00 PM
167: Given where you are, I don't find that too surprising. I can see how it would be irritating, though.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 12:04 PM
169: Yup. Combined with the hideousness of the landscape, it hasn't helped me feel real comfortable here.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 12:18 PM
I can't understand why naked people are always described as "parading". Personally I prefer to saunter.
Posted by Basil Valentine | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 4:01 PM
I frolic.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:31 PM
I myself would rather lounge.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:36 PM
I seep.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:46 PM
I idle.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 6:53 PM
I idle
Polluter!
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:05 PM
Polluter!
Says the guy who seeps.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:14 PM
Labs- in what was is ugly not equal to overweight, in the context of this discussion regarding nakedness? Their faces are presumably already naked, so that's not at issue. What about a person's body can be ugly, if it is not overweight? Are you talking about phyiscal deformities? Because otherwise a not-overweight human body is not unattractive. And hating on deformed people is mean.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:15 PM
178 should say "in what way"...
Also, "physical" should arguably be spelled correctly.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:17 PM
One problem with the "some people should cover up" position is that for every body type, there is someone out there who fetishizes it. I, for instance, am kinda into the muffin top effect.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 7:45 PM
My seminal experiences with nakedness:
1) the mass female changing rooms in the public pool when I was very young, where I saw unashamed female bodies for the first time--not scampering out of sight, not my mother's. It scared me, but I was very interested.
2) the only changing room for my ballet school: the first place I saw people I knew, outside my family, naked or mostly so. Nobody said anything, but it was of course a very judgmental space.
3) weirdly foundational: when my childhood friend and I caused an electrical fire in the toaster, my mother came nude out of the bath to combat it, and she was more embarrassed of having enjoyed spraying around the fire extinguisher (causing a terrible mess difficult to clean up) than of having done so stark naked.
4) going to a spa in West Germany and feeling very sorry for the embarrassment of the two American GIs there that day, and yet respecting them for having the courage to try the local culture--so many of them just stay on base. And they averted their eyes so adorably--it really helped me get over the more lascivious looks I got from the pensioners.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 08- 6-06 8:43 PM
Here in New Zealand there was recently a semi-scandal when a mother helping her children get changed by the side of the pool was told that it wasn't allowed because there might be paedophiles watching with hidden cameras. There was a lot of comment of the "political correctness gone mad!" variety.
I let my daughters decide when they were ready to go into the changing rooms by themselves but I wish they hadn't because they take forever. I hang around outside kicking my heels and cursing that there's no way to tell them to hurry up.
Posted by Basil Valentine | Link to this comment | 08- 7-06 1:32 AM
Apparently they saunter as well, BV.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 7-06 6:00 AM
It doesn't bother me to be nude in the locker room or to see other women nude in there either.
Why should it?
Were all women with the same body parts, and for the most part no-one is looking anyway.
Although I must admit to taking notice of one nude women in the locker room, but that's because it was the actress Courtney Thorne-Smith. She is a regular at my gym, and she will walk around the locker room totally naked all of the time, even doing her hair and makeup totally nude. So it is hard not to look in a case like that!
Posted by Jennifer | Link to this comment | 08- 7-06 5:40 PM