Xxxxxxxxx (8:16:53 PM): well i better go finish my hw...i just found out from a
friend that i have to finish reading and notating a book for AP english
It's instant messaging; it has its own syntax. I figure it's kind of like telegrams ('why did they always say stop when they got to ends of sentences? l8r, gtg, ttyl.)
if 8 was a reply to my parenthesis in 6:
yeah, I know about IM'ing, and I know what brb and gtg and so on and so forth mean. That's not what I was referring to when I asked whether people really talk that way.
Anyhow--ogged, I wouldn't joke too much about Foley offing himself. It may come back and haunt you when he turns up dead in the next few days of undetermined causes.
(i.e., they can't determine whether he was killed by Karl Rove or Ken Mehlman or Denny Hastert).
Yeah, I'm touchy about unsourced scandal. so sue me.
Now that I see it's pretty well sourced--rock on.
This is appallingly good news. The Democratic recovery of at least one house has just moved a lot, lot closer.
The appalling part being that I think it is very likely that the press and electorate will respond to this one with a great deal of focus and attention, get angry, outraged, and vote the bums out, when in fact they should have been getting outraged about the Detainee Bill.
But as we learned during the Hunt for Bill Clinton, the press loves a sex scandal above all else. And trashing habeas corpus? who cares about that?
"After we posted that story online, we began to hear from a number of other pages who sent these much more explicit, instant messages."
Ehhhhhh.... well, he did resign, so presumably there's some messages out there, but I'm not so sure about 'we posted it online and these guys just came out of the woodwork with archived conversations from three years ago.'
I was sort of thinking that re:37; it seems the other pages would warn other pages but weren't going to risk telling on a powerful guy, and that sounds a bit like 'everyone knows don't be alone with Father Anthony.'
Yeah, but if they'd stopped with the molestation in Boston, everyone's way of life was threatened, here I'm pretty sure they could have just kicked out one guy. Seriously, how hard would it be to tell Foley that he had to step aside gracefully, because this shit was bound to come out.
I don't know, if you look at all the shit the GOP's pulled in the past few years (secret torture prisons in Eastern Europe, anyone?) it doesn't look like they give much thought to the inevitability of disclose. They're all about the coverups.
I had read the emails, and thought it was bizarre that his office went to such weird lying lengths to cover it up ("We ask for everyone's picture in our office after they leave!"), especially if there was a possibility this stuff would come out. Now they all look evil.
At this point, I'd almost like to hear that at least one anti-pedophilia Republican is not a pedophile, or an anti-gay Republican not a gay, or a pro-American Republican not trying to destroy America.
That is the wrongest thing I have ever laughed at.
In haiku:
astukferallah!
This horny old congressman
is hard like a rock.
(That can't be spelled right, as indicated by the fact that google locates it only in the context of a poem containing the lines
I KNOW WHAT IS WRITE FROM WRONG
AND IT WONT BE LONG
OH ALLAH PLEASE I NEVER WANT TO
SMOKE ANOTHER BONG.)
61--it's not going to die, and I don't think they were controlling the timing on this one. This was definitely *not* what the RNC wanted to come out on this Friday.
I fear I have defiled my body and dishonored the Prophet (peace be upon him) for I have succumbed to the temptation of self pleasure. What shall be my punishment in the next life?
7 1/2 is the most cliched internet cock size, I think.
Gotta hand it to the kid, if he's lying, it's a good one. Above average, but not by so much as to immediately make the other party assume you're lying.
At what point in handing over glasses of water and documents is Foley's like, "Hey, kid, gimme your screenname. I might want to say hey to you some night."
I wouldn't be surprised if that info were on a contact list. If pages "belong" to an office, then I'll bet that Foley's office got that info from all the kids. If he hit them up for it personally, it makes me much more concerned that he physically molested some of these kids.
Hm. I've never worked anywhere that required me to give personal info like that. It freaks me out somewhat. Plus, the kid seems hardly shocked when Foley starts in with the "I'm hard r u?" business.
Since the penis size thing is "tell me again," it's a good bet this was something ongoing. As Josh Marshall points out, Foley did this with multiple pages, and the kid who complained about the "sick sick sick" emails is not this kid.
Presumably his MO was to start off with e-mail, then move on to IM; this whole thing started when ABC got ahold of some (fairly innocuous) e-mails he'd sent and asked him about them.
I can't see why one's IM screenname would be publicly available like that
It would be a little odd if the pages don't belong to an office but they all put their screennames on a list. I'm just guessing. But I'm willing to bet that if pages work for a particular office, someone in Foley's office had the nifty idea to ask them all for their screennames.
Some companies use IM quite a bit. Quick and cheap. We use it a ton where I'm currently at. We moved to an intra network MSN thing, but for years it was regular old AOL.
"Βιτ&zeta" is the name of a sport that was played in Greek-occupied north Africa, traditionally using an inflated goat's bladder; the pun is that a "kid bitzer" could either be a young player of this game or one who uses the smaller bladder of a kid to heighten the challenge.
poor ogged--seems I really hit a nerve when I harshed his buzz on the escort thing, so last night I got to be pinata.
fair enough, folks--but handle flames? Isn't that kind of lame?
And the real thing to keep in mind here: Foley wound up where he is because he started using high-priced female escorts. Yup. It's the gateway drug. And then next thing you know, you're IM'ing 16 y.o. boys.
That's what I was trying to save you from, ogged. And this is the thanks I get.
(Stanley--my best guess is that she was hearing "kibbitzer"--could be she had something else in mind).
Jesus, why do I read RedState? The line over there is basically "why is Foley resigning when the aberrant sexual behavior of Barney Frank still goes unpunished."
103
where in the archives does it explain what "backrub" means in IM slang?
Anyhow--all in good fun.
Question: are there reporting requirements in DC? Isn't there a Child Services Division? Hastert et co. may have violated laws by not reporting--these are reportable events.
"I love that people in the page program knew enough to warn the pages, but didn't actually get the guy to stop."
This would be another teaching moment. A lot of people don't know what "prerogative" means. Let's use it in a sentence:
"At one time, trolling the page pool is a Congressional prerogative. In theory, they weren't supposed to do it, but nothing happened if they did. But then in September 2006 hypocritical Democratic partisans made a big deal out of nothing."
On the size question: Xxxxxxxxx knew Foley was a big Vanity fan.
Foley's congressional website is down, but Steve Rothaus has copied the section entitled "Children." An excerpt:
Over the years, Mark also has worked closely with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and John Walsh (host of Fox TV’s America’s Most Wanted) on a variety of child protection programs. Among the latest of these is a program designed to show children how to protect themselves from online predators.
You know what I'm waiting for? Some Repug to show up on one of the Sunday politics shows and nervously declare that this shouldn't be a big deal, because, after all, it's just pederasty not pedophilia.
Why did you have to ruin wolfson's joke kid bitzer? The folx here could have kept that one going for at least another 200 comments. Oh well, I guess everyone has to start somewhere.
I'm waiting for good old Prof. Reynolds to link to this post and the one below it one as an example of liberals caring more the pickup of a House seat than those poor, scarred Congressional pages. And then they make jokes! Jokes.
I love that people in the page program knew enough to warn the pages, but didn't actually get the guy to stop. That's classy.
Welcome to the real world, Labs! Everyone here who has a vagina and has been warned that senior penis person so-and-so is a little creepy, raise your hand.
Actually, come to think of it, not a feminist issue. I bet L's own students pass along these warnings to one another.
Am I the only one here who not infrequently sexes someone up via chat? Because, in the harsh light of day, what's most obvious about this transcript is how uninterested the kid is, and how much he seems to be taking every opportunity to change the subject or disengage. I wouldn't be surprised if the cast fetish were a complete lie.
Not that that'll help him in any way if someone finds out who he is.
B, I think you've got it. This definitely looks like a typical "one side not in the mood" IM conversation. It's also clear that the kid has had this conversation many times before.
When I read the part about casts, the first thing that came to mind was the Plaster Casters. The second thing that came to mind was Jimi Hendrix's encounter with them. But he's obviously not talking about those casts.
I assumed the kid was just taking the piss with the cast fetish thing; just thinking of the most weirdly specific and un-erotic fetish he could think of. Casts? Really?
Bitch, you don't understand. Molesting boys is wrong and abnormal. It's this kind of relativistic moral equivalency that causes normal people to hate liberals and feminists.
Am I the only one here who not infrequently sexes someone up via chat?
This seems so impractical.
I am working on a case where our opponent is in the business of doing porn chat by text mesage to cell phones. How does this even work? (I'm mean I understand the telecom aspects, it's just the other aspects . . . ) I guess I don't understand because when I type on my cell phone or Blackberry I use both hands.
My snugglebear (I intend to beat this joke past the point of death) and I are long-distance, and we've never done the chat sex, mostly because I can't help thinking we could just write scripts that would do the same thing and I could go watch television instead.
if (HotForYou;)
{
pretendMoodLighting;
pretendLingerie;
pretendOohBabyOohBabyOoh;
pretendFondle;
pretendOrgasm;
}
else
{
pretendRollOverandSleep;
}
I can see how it could theoretically be fun, but it just doesn't strike me as appealing.
I'm not sure what this means, but I'm afraid to try it lest (1) my cell phone explode or (2) our office manager later confront me with a cell phone bill for exotic cell phone porn.
Has anyone here seen Primer? I saw it last night, and am very tempted to watch it again in order to try to figure it out, but wonder if anyone else has done so and if so, did it work?
14:Please I would enjoy the lurk better if future references to me are in the form, "Comrade McManus" or "Cell Leader McManus" or best "Dallas Cell #1 M". Thank you.
132: Yes, I saw it and liked it very much. I am not sure it holds up to rigorous re-watching, since much that we need to know isn't in the film, but it did give me great pleasure.
I do think there is a causal relationship between certain kinds of extreme sexual deviancy and authoritarianism, conservatism, or Republicanism, not in the sense that all Republicans are child molesters but in the sense that more child molesters are Republican than Democrats. The etiosis has yet to be determined.
Damn. I used it just for kicks, but going online to see if I was anywhere near meaning, appears if I was playing Scrabble, "etiosis" would get me in big trouble.
132: Yes, but I'd have to go back in time to figure it out.
OTOH, we watched V is for Vendetta last night and noted how frighteningly prescient it seemed to be. [And yes, I understand why Alan Moore was discomfitted by it; it's not really his Bakuninian anarchic vision of the necessity of destroying the old to build the new. But, hey, freedom's jes' another word/for nothin' left to lose...]
man, I will always mourn this guy I "met" when I was 21, because he was the only person I have ever encountered who was as good at internet sex as I am. Every other time, the relationship is a little, or a lot, one sided.
118: Chickenshit. I admit to internet sex under my own pseudonym. But thanks for this and for 137.
123, 125: I can't help it if some people lack imagination. I bet y'all never, ever think about sex unless you're actually going to have sex or masturbate, either.
130: I meant FL; I was trying to be subtle b/c of the whole redacted previous comments thing. As usual, my attempts at subtlety just end up being incomprehensible, though.
What's eating at me is how Mark Foley looks EXACTLY like a professor in my program, who has the same face, same hair, and the same intense, possibly mad stare.
Oh noes! No, I wasn't thinking of L, who is an actual real student, at all. I was making a joke about FL's old jokes--jokes really!--about student sexxoring.
Which none of us here ever do, or ever would do, because it's creepy and wrong. We only joke about it in a dark humor kind of way.
Okay! So now I am going to, um, go do something else.
Yes, you should conclude that the reason I don't find cybersex thrilling is due to my lack of imagination.
It's not that, really. It's just that the words & imagination don't turn me on at the computer, probably because normally on the computer I'm multi-tasking, and I'd probably end up looking up recipes for chili while waiting for a description to be IM'd; if it works for you, great.
On a wholly unrelated point, was I the only one who couldn't believe that this was a real threat? Has there been an outbreak of egg-related violence lately?
One funny thing about this: while in real life I take many steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, one of my colleagues is indeed rogering a recently former student.
Some of my current students seem to enjoy making comments to me in front of other students that seem to suggest that we're involved in an erotic relationship. I wasn't sure what to do about this at first, but now I've figured it out.
Sultry green-eyed boy: So, um, AWB. [sigh] I guess I was pretty late to class today. Are you mad at me?
AWB: Oh, yes, I am, SGEB. I'm so mad I might just stay mad forever.
SGEB: Huh?
AWB: I mean that, whenever I'm tempted to think anything nice about you, I'll simply remember this moment, and sigh, and think, "How sad that was." I shan't recover from the shock. You may not want to come back.
157: Some of my current students seem to enjoy making comments to me in front of other students that seem to suggest that we're involved in an erotic relationship
159: It's not what he says; it's how he says it. It's a class full of terrified, overwhelmed juniors and seniors who suddenly realize they're facing material way over their heads. This kid is rather fearless, and using a certain kind of quasi-sexual suggestiveness with me that, I think, is purposed to make all the other ladies in the class think he is teh hotness. It's working. So far, girls are actually crying when he speaks.
Not at all. Students regularly flirt with professors. I'll freely admit that I will flirt back, although with the caveat that my flirting, like AWB's dialogue above, might be described by those less honest as merely joking and, as she says, deflating the tension.
It's pretty damn easy, really, b/c most students are young enough that they don't *really* know they're flirting, so you can easily manage to both butter them up and keep them at arm's length without them realizing that's what you're doing.
161: Yes, and often alpha-type boys, or those who aspire to be alpha-types, will try to pull that shit on youngish women instructors as a way of asserting dominance. You can ignore it and/or be a hardass over it, which gets you bad evals; or you can josh around ("flirt") back, as I and apparently AWB do. The latter makes them think that you're "cool," and keeps the alpha boys in line so they aren't disruptive and even "like" you, which means you get good evals *and* you can do good teaching.
163: I agree with this. Also, one must remember that students' sexual aggressiveness is almost never "about" you, the instructor, as a sexual object. It's a way of recasting intimidation as desire, or (as in the SGEB's method) a way of showing the rest of the class how badass you are.
One funny thing about this: while in real life I take many steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, one of my colleagues is indeed rogering a recently former student.
How common is this? I'm not aware of any cases myself, but then I'm not paying very close attention.
172: All the time, teo. At my undergrad institution, I knew at least ten different girls who were receiving 3am phone calls from the poet in residence to come over and give him blowjobs. I received a very forward invitation to have an affair with a prof in another department, and I knew of several grad students who were sleeping with their dissertation directors.
Of my peers, though, I only know of a few who have slept with their undergrads. It usually ends badly.
My ex-wide hit on her own creative writing instructor, but he chickened out. I was hit on, more or less, by the famous poet Robert Duncan. If you don't know who he is, shame on you, but he was famous back before you were born.
I'm trying to think if I've been hit on by teachers. I suppose so, but less than I would have hoped. In undergrad, one of my profs was friendly and a bit flirty, but he was very low key about it, and it was never a problem when I didn't reciprocate. In high school I had a female teacher who loved me and said "Oh, ogged, yumm" when she saw my yearbook picture, but I took that as a maternal "yumm."
176: I'd add that I feel extremely safe from any kind of sexual harassment or affair-suggestions in my Ph.D. program. I think undergrads are much more likely to be sexually manipulated (and manipulating) than grad students, for whom an affair is usually only a means to an end. Undergrads seem much less self-aware about the power dynamics of a sexual relationship with profs.
It happens all the time, and I think a big part of it is because there *is* a certain erotic frisson to a good professor/student relationship. And, like the theater, it can be kinda heady, especially as the show/semester is winding down. If you are silly, you can wind up doing silly things. It takes a cool head and/or, as Labs says, deliberate steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety (i.e., avoiding situations like taking a student out for drinnks) to keep it in perspective.
Just recently I took a few classes and ended up with a big crush on a teacher half my age. She was cute, famous, quite friendly, and between husbands too.
180: It's more just that being in that environment sounds so, so creepy. As an undergrad right now I'm more or less totally oblivious to it (although I'm sure it's going on around me), but it seems like grad students are more aware of what's going on in their departments.
At my institution, any kind of romantic/sexual contact with current students will result in firing. Re 180: many undergrads seem to be exquisitely aware of their avenues of recourse, of which there are many. De facto, grad students lack these, since they're so dependent on good will.
One reason I'm a little bit unhappy about relationships between students and faculty is that other students are aware of them and this awareness changes the pedagogical dynamic for everyone.
Grad student-junior prof relationships don't strike me as terribly wrong (no worse than a usual office romance, which isn't high praise) as long as the prof isn't grading or advising the student. It's not weird for a 33-year-old to date a 25-year-old.
Yeah, but it's not just the age thing; it's that whole argument about relative power structures and, as Labs says, the way it affects the department as a whole.
192: I can see it being okay if the department was big enough. Some departments are big enough that a prof and a grad student might never interact professionally.
I was hit on, more or less, by the famous poet Robert Duncan.
Better than being hit on by Ted Roethke, I suppose.
My College Democrats' alumni advisor--he later became a Congressional chief-of-staff--hit on me once (following a discussion of The Silmarillion of all things!). I guess he just couldn't wait to get to DC.
when I was an undergrad (decades ago) I remember several profs sleeping with students. It messed up the students' lives, not too surprisingly.
I have since been on hiring committees, considering these same profs for jobs, and have seen it mess up the professors' lives (i.e. their past activity became common knowledge, and resulted in their being dismissed from consideration).
That is an indication of what a taboo it is now, decades later, to sleep with undergrads. It means the effective end of your career--at least the end of your chances of moving up to better jobs, possibly the end of your job altogether.
I am pretty sure that none of my departmental colleagues, in a variety of jobs, have ever hit on undergrads. (What happens in your department I don't know). There is a very, very strong social oppobrium attached to it, in addition to serious institutional penalties.
The result is that most of the professoriate I know are as scrupulous of their modesty and reputation as Victorian debutantes--because the penalties for disrepute are almost as severe (e.g. complete loss of job, reputation, and career).
Some people still put grad students in a different category. I think that's a mistake, but it's a harder case to make.
I think I have mentioned elsewhere here that, at my MA graduation party, my thesis advisor drunkenly confessed that he'd always wanted to have sex with me. In the awkward silence that followed, he cleverly inserted, "And Kevin Spacey, but only if both of you were there, of course." I found it rather cute, and not at all threatening.
198 reminds me of a thing in my job. I'm on the committee that evaluates associates firm-wide, votes on partnership nominations, sets salaries, hires and fires. You'd think there would be at least some attempts at bribery, minor flirtation, or such. Instead, at our annual meeting a couple of years ago, a young woman associate (whom I did not know) came up to me (out of the blue) and said, somewhat drunkenly, 'do you remember when you used to be fun?'
When I was a TA, I never ever got involved with any of my students, but I did have a secret grading policy of never giving perfect scores. I figured no test or problem set was so perfect that it couldn't be improved by also sleeping with me.
I didn't want all the students to sleep with me, some papers wouldn't be improved by also sleeping with me. But I wasn't going to penalize only the charming students, so I never gave any perfect scores to anyone in my several quarters of teaching. The kids never knew.
Reed college has an actual policy of trashing every freshman's first written paper in the required freshman course, no matter how good it is. Sort of like establishing dominance in dog training. New profs are told that they were being watched, and that if they gave any freshman a good grade on their first paper, they wouldn't be at Reed long.
206 - They never knew and it just compressed the top of the curve. But if you get your papers back with a 99+ and the words SEE ME IN OFFICE HOURS across the top of the page, now you'll know why.
208 - Never touched 'em. But now I *am* wondering if I would have changed their test scores based on their extracurricular performance. Kindof a dicey game for them...
177: Does finding "ex-wide" much, much funnier mean I'm going to hell?
181: I confess, I remembered it being uuddlrlr, not lrlrudud, but the joke was too good to correct. If you ever need an easy visual cue for it I've found just the thing.
"It's vile," said Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach [of the Ken Starr report on Clinton - RMP]. "It's more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction."
218: If at some point the DC based commenters outnumber the NY based commenters, maybe that should be taken into consideration when planning the text-inspired coop co-op house.
Woo hoo! Since I have very little vacation time left, I probably won't be going back to Midwest Hometown for the whole week between Xmas and New Years and can probably swing a trip to DC. I want to meet the rosy toed one!
(And Teo and eb, of course, let me know when you will be in DC, too.)
Little bit Becks-style on top of jetlag = winning combination!
groovy! I'll be there from the 27th to Jan 6. we can have a wing-ding. b-wo, if my family and all my highschool friends move to university x my pattern will likely change...
Thanks for radically increasing my chances of scoring, Ogged. Now I'll have to fall back on plan B, which involves getting really drunk and causally regulating Richard Boyd.
Who is actually nice, and I will not actually assault him.
You lazy gay, post that text under the fold.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:05 PM
OF MY TOWEL.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:06 PM
Done. Sleepy now.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:12 PM
is this little post limp...or growing
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:13 PM
Xxxxxxxxx (8:16:53 PM): well i better go finish my hw...i just found out from a
friend that i have to finish reading and notating a book for AP english
f00b: are you hard like a rock?
n00b: gtg study.
d00d, harsh.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:15 PM
yikes.
source for that? I clicked on the link thinking it would be a news account, not the transcript itself. So what authenticates the source?
(And do people really talk that way? Aye aye aye. What a nasty world you chilluns have to grow up in nowadays.)
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:16 PM
You just knew it had to be bad when he resigned that quickly. It's as awesome as I'd hoped.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:19 PM
It's instant messaging; it has its own syntax. I figure it's kind of like telegrams ('why did they always say stop when they got to ends of sentences? l8r, gtg, ttyl.)
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:19 PM
Measure it again.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:21 PM
Wondering if it's fake. It's a little too perfect: He just finished campaigning for the day and jumps right to the shower/grower distinction?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:22 PM
if 8 was a reply to my parenthesis in 6:
yeah, I know about IM'ing, and I know what brb and gtg and so on and so forth mean. That's not what I was referring to when I asked whether people really talk that way.
Anyhow--ogged, I wouldn't joke too much about Foley offing himself. It may come back and haunt you when he turns up dead in the next few days of undetermined causes.
(i.e., they can't determine whether he was killed by Karl Rove or Ken Mehlman or Denny Hastert).
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:23 PM
Wiki: In late 2000, Foley played a large role in aiding George W. Bush during the Presidential election recount controversy in Florida.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:23 PM
Mom: What are you doing?
Xxxxxx: Measuring my penis.
Mom: Why?
Xxxxxx: The congressman told me to.
Bwhahaaha!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:24 PM
Oh, sure, McManus can call for armed insurrection, but we can't joke about this clown. Typical.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:24 PM
hey, I haven't been here long enough to be typical.
Seriously, though: what's the source for this?
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:25 PM
Cut it out bitzer, you're making me hard.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:26 PM
It was on the cast fetish web site.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:26 PM
abc doesn't say where they got it.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:27 PM
Bitzer hasn't realized yet that this is where empathy comes to die.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:29 PM
Cut it out bitzer, you're making me hard.
Tell me when your reaches rock.
Posted by redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:30 PM
Oop, apparently too hard to italicize properly.
Posted by redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:31 PM
I'll have empathy for the predatory kid-chasing hypocrite tomorrow. Tonight, I'm buying towels.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:31 PM
Hey, I just realized that kid bitzer's name is a clever pun.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:32 PM
empathy, enh. Not what I come here for.
at least Cala gives me a clue, sc. abc. I'll check there.
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:32 PM
Don't rub yourself raw, little guy.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:33 PM
Funny, I just realized he's touchy about this topic for a reason.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:33 PM
Well, a pun, anyway.
Posted by redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:33 PM
The story's here, kid biter.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:33 PM
kid biter
Let's not cast aspersions upon our newbie.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:36 PM
"That's Congressman Kid Biter to you."
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:37 PM
"Federal authorities say such messages could result in Foley's prosecution, under some of the same laws he helped to enact."
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:37 PM
29 me.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:37 PM
got it. Thanks.
Yeah, I'm touchy about unsourced scandal. so sue me.
Now that I see it's pretty well sourced--rock on.
This is appallingly good news. The Democratic recovery of at least one house has just moved a lot, lot closer.
The appalling part being that I think it is very likely that the press and electorate will respond to this one with a great deal of focus and attention, get angry, outraged, and vote the bums out, when in fact they should have been getting outraged about the Detainee Bill.
But as we learned during the Hunt for Bill Clinton, the press loves a sex scandal above all else. And trashing habeas corpus? who cares about that?
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:39 PM
You're killing me, bitzer.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:42 PM
"After we posted that story online, we began to hear from a number of other pages who sent these much more explicit, instant messages."
Ehhhhhh.... well, he did resign, so presumably there's some messages out there, but I'm not so sure about 'we posted it online and these guys just came out of the woodwork with archived conversations from three years ago.'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:42 PM
Josh Marshall is all over this story. It seems to be reaching very high up into the House leadership.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:44 PM
I love that people in the page program knew enough to warn the pages, but didn't actually get the guy to stop. That's classy.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:45 PM
Ogged, you know how bitzer is-- gets everyone excited, then has to help his mom with some files.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:46 PM
Christ, the Republican house leadership is like the Boston diocese.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:49 PM
I was sort of thinking that re:37; it seems the other pages would warn other pages but weren't going to risk telling on a powerful guy, and that sounds a bit like 'everyone knows don't be alone with Father Anthony.'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:52 PM
Yeah, but if they'd stopped with the molestation in Boston, everyone's way of life was threatened, here I'm pretty sure they could have just kicked out one guy. Seriously, how hard would it be to tell Foley that he had to step aside gracefully, because this shit was bound to come out.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:53 PM
I don't know, if you look at all the shit the GOP's pulled in the past few years (secret torture prisons in Eastern Europe, anyone?) it doesn't look like they give much thought to the inevitability of disclose. They're all about the coverups.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:55 PM
the inevitability of disclosure, that is
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:56 PM
41: Maybe nailing underage pages is a way of life for Republican Congressmen. Who knew the Reds were the NAMBLA party?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:57 PM
Well, it couldn't happen to a nicer party.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 10:58 PM
Hey Labs, is any girl gonna give you a hand job this weekend?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:03 PM
I didn't know waltzing could make you so sore.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:06 PM
Sore, and way hot. Like a hot rock. Like a hot seven and half inch long rock. Mommmm!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:09 PM
IM IN UR CONGRSS
SXXXING UR KIDZ
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:09 PM
7 1/2 is the most cliched internet cock size, I think.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:11 PM
Except this kid is actually nine inches, but just wanted to be left alone.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:13 PM
Well, he is in a hurry. No time for lotion! Have to get to practice!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:16 PM
Strangest line in the whole thing: "where do you throw the towel"
What the fuck, old man? Are you going to retrieve it?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:16 PM
I love that he says "you need a massage" and "I like steamroom." It's like he's a mix of gay culture's greatest cliches.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:19 PM
Just popping in to say ho, lee, fuck.
I had read the emails, and thought it was bizarre that his office went to such weird lying lengths to cover it up ("We ask for everyone's picture in our office after they leave!"), especially if there was a possibility this stuff would come out. Now they all look evil.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:19 PM
At this point, I'd almost like to hear that at least one anti-pedophilia Republican is not a pedophile, or an anti-gay Republican not a gay, or a pro-American Republican not trying to destroy America.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:22 PM
7 1/2 is the most cliched internet cock size, I think.
How large is your sample?
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:25 PM
It's kind of like someone in the Democratic party suddenly pushed Left-Right-Left-Right-Up-Down-Up-Down-A-B-A-B-Select-Start.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:26 PM
I'd like to find out that Republican congressmen are using the detainees at Gitmo as their personal sex slaves.
Measure it for me again.
This is haram!
LOL
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:28 PM
this is not happening!!
Posted by The Right | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:31 PM
Friday evening information dump---but somehow I doubt this story is going to die.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:32 PM
That is the wrongest thing I have ever laughed at.
In haiku:
astukferallah!
This horny old congressman
is hard like a rock.
(That can't be spelled right, as indicated by the fact that google locates it only in the context of a poem containing the lines
I KNOW WHAT IS WRITE FROM WRONG
AND IT WONT BE LONG
OH ALLAH PLEASE I NEVER WANT TO
SMOKE ANOTHER BONG.)
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:40 PM
61--it's not going to die, and I don't think they were controlling the timing on this one. This was definitely *not* what the RNC wanted to come out on this Friday.
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:40 PM
Oh Allah please I never want to
Smoke another bong
With this congressman who
Keeps asking about my dong.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:45 PM
Dear Exalted Ayatollah Sistani,
I fear I have defiled my body and dishonored the Prophet (peace be upon him) for I have succumbed to the temptation of self pleasure. What shall be my punishment in the next life?
A Troubled Page
Young Page,
Where do you throw the towel?
AS30
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:50 PM
64: You need about three more syllables in the third line, and a couple fewer in the fourth.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:51 PM
7 1/2 is the most cliched internet cock size, I think.
Gotta hand it to the kid, if he's lying, it's a good one. Above average, but not by so much as to immediately make the other party assume you're lying.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:54 PM
66: You need about three more syllables
At The Minishaft?
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:55 PM
65 is awesome.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:55 PM
68: Five is only three to a very rough approximation.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-06 11:57 PM
Ogged, do you know why I hate you? It's late Friday night, and I'm parsing lame cybersex looking for some as-yet-undiscovered joke.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:04 AM
great visual
i may try that
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:06 AM
Folly meets Foley.
'Tis tow'l cum resignation.
Shame be a corpus.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:07 AM
great visual
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:08 AM
Has anyone seen Gram, my one-eyed snake? Did one of you kids run off with it?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:08 AM
At what point in handing over glasses of water and documents is Foley's like, "Hey, kid, gimme your screenname. I might want to say hey to you some night."
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:09 AM
Tia did, I think.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:09 AM
At what point
I wouldn't be surprised if that info were on a contact list. If pages "belong" to an office, then I'll bet that Foley's office got that info from all the kids. If he hit them up for it personally, it makes me much more concerned that he physically molested some of these kids.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:14 AM
Who wants to sex my congressman?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:16 AM
Hm. I've never worked anywhere that required me to give personal info like that. It freaks me out somewhat. Plus, the kid seems hardly shocked when Foley starts in with the "I'm hard r u?" business.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:17 AM
78: Not screennames but e-mail addresses, of course. I'm sure there's a list.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:19 AM
Yeah, I can't see why one's IM screenname would be publicly available like that. Work is for working, not for IMing!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:19 AM
Since the penis size thing is "tell me again," it's a good bet this was something ongoing. As Josh Marshall points out, Foley did this with multiple pages, and the kid who complained about the "sick sick sick" emails is not this kid.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:20 AM
Presumably his MO was to start off with e-mail, then move on to IM; this whole thing started when ABC got ahold of some (fairly innocuous) e-mails he'd sent and asked him about them.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:20 AM
Somewhere in all this there's a joke about bookmarks versus bending over pages.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:21 AM
And obviously Foley's work email is not his AOL account, so it must have been him contacting the kid, saying "Hey it's Congressman Foley! Wanna chat?"
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:22 AM
I can't see why one's IM screenname would be publicly available like that
It would be a little odd if the pages don't belong to an office but they all put their screennames on a list. I'm just guessing. But I'm willing to bet that if pages work for a particular office, someone in Foley's office had the nifty idea to ask them all for their screennames.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:23 AM
84 sounds right, actuallly.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:24 AM
I so hope this kid is never identified. "Why yes, I do have a plaster cast fetish, and a while back I used to sexxx up Rep. Foley."
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:27 AM
Has anyone searched to see if Foley has a Myspace account?
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:27 AM
Some companies use IM quite a bit. Quick and cheap. We use it a ton where I'm currently at. We moved to an intra network MSN thing, but for years it was regular old AOL.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:27 AM
Clearly, Foley's already moved on to new endeavors.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:37 AM
I couldn't find the myspace page, but I'm bad at searching that thing. OK, time to do my AP english homework.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:39 AM
So AWB comes back from a long absence with a Contra joke, and no gives her any credit? For shame.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:08 AM
I'm underappreciated in my own time.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:16 AM
Please, God, let this kid never be identified.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:46 AM
96: "identified" s/b "bitzer"?
I'm still confused about the pun thing; but then, I'm dense.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:51 AM
"Βιτ&zeta" is the name of a sport that was played in Greek-occupied north Africa, traditionally using an inflated goat's bladder; the pun is that a "kid bitzer" could either be a young player of this game or one who uses the smaller bladder of a kid to heighten the challenge.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:24 AM
Do try to keep up, Stan.
Posted by Tarrou | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:45 AM
Kobe!
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:53 AM
I'm glad to see 94, because 58 was awesome.
Man, I hope this story is still in the news Monday.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:03 AM
poor ogged--seems I really hit a nerve when I harshed his buzz on the escort thing, so last night I got to be pinata.
fair enough, folks--but handle flames? Isn't that kind of lame?
And the real thing to keep in mind here: Foley wound up where he is because he started using high-priced female escorts. Yup. It's the gateway drug. And then next thing you know, you're IM'ing 16 y.o. boys.
That's what I was trying to save you from, ogged. And this is the thanks I get.
(Stanley--my best guess is that she was hearing "kibbitzer"--could be she had something else in mind).
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:22 AM
fair enough, folks--but handle flames? Isn't that kind of lame?
Dude, read the archives. You didn't get flamed, you got a backrub.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:26 AM
Jesus, why do I read RedState? The line over there is basically "why is Foley resigning when the aberrant sexual behavior of Barney Frank still goes unpunished."
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:33 AM
103
where in the archives does it explain what "backrub" means in IM slang?
Anyhow--all in good fun.
Question: are there reporting requirements in DC? Isn't there a Child Services Division? Hastert et co. may have violated laws by not reporting--these are reportable events.
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:40 AM
"I love that people in the page program knew enough to warn the pages, but didn't actually get the guy to stop."
This would be another teaching moment. A lot of people don't know what "prerogative" means. Let's use it in a sentence:
"At one time, trolling the page pool is a Congressional prerogative. In theory, they weren't supposed to do it, but nothing happened if they did. But then in September 2006 hypocritical Democratic partisans made a big deal out of nothing."
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:44 AM
On the size question: Xxxxxxxxx knew Foley was a big Vanity fan.
Foley's congressional website is down, but Steve Rothaus has copied the section entitled "Children." An excerpt:
Posted by J— | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:20 AM
Commenting on someone's handle is a flame?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:23 AM
Somebody who has actual high-volume blog posting powers needs to start calling our esteemed speaker of the house "Bishop Hastert".
Posted by Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:24 AM
I can't decide whether that meme would hurt us with or endear us to Catholics.
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:39 AM
My Catholic friends do not like bishop jokes. They're pretty liberal but they still love the Church.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:47 AM
My Catholic friends do not like bishop jokes.
Not even jokes coming from... The Bishop?
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 7:57 AM
I expect it would hurt the case with Catholics; we're pretty pissed about the abuse, too,but that doesn't mean we like the jokes.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 8:00 AM
You know what I'm waiting for? Some Repug to show up on one of the Sunday politics shows and nervously declare that this shouldn't be a big deal, because, after all, it's just pederasty not pedophilia.
Why did you have to ruin wolfson's joke kid bitzer? The folx here could have kept that one going for at least another 200 comments. Oh well, I guess everyone has to start somewhere.
Posted by minneapolitan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:21 AM
I'm waiting for good old Prof. Reynolds to link to this post and the one below it one as an example of liberals caring more the pickup of a House seat than those poor, scarred Congressional pages. And then they make jokes! Jokes.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:26 AM
I love that people in the page program knew enough to warn the pages, but didn't actually get the guy to stop. That's classy.
Welcome to the real world, Labs! Everyone here who has a vagina and has been warned that senior penis person so-and-so is a little creepy, raise your hand.
Actually, come to think of it, not a feminist issue. I bet L's own students pass along these warnings to one another.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:28 AM
Am I the only one here who not infrequently sexes someone up via chat? Because, in the harsh light of day, what's most obvious about this transcript is how uninterested the kid is, and how much he seems to be taking every opportunity to change the subject or disengage. I wouldn't be surprised if the cast fetish were a complete lie.
Not that that'll help him in any way if someone finds out who he is.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:32 AM
B, I think you've got it. This definitely looks like a typical "one side not in the mood" IM conversation. It's also clear that the kid has had this conversation many times before.
Posted by temporarily anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:37 AM
When I read the part about casts, the first thing that came to mind was the Plaster Casters. The second thing that came to mind was Jimi Hendrix's encounter with them. But he's obviously not talking about those casts.
Posted by J— | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:38 AM
I assumed the kid was just taking the piss with the cast fetish thing; just thinking of the most weirdly specific and un-erotic fetish he could think of. Casts? Really?
Apparently.
(NSFW, obviously)
Posted by Felix | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:45 AM
Bitch, you don't understand. Molesting boys is wrong and abnormal. It's this kind of relativistic moral equivalency that causes normal people to hate liberals and feminists.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:46 AM
The cast fetish is the most cliched J.G. Ballard fetish, I think.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:57 AM
Am I the only one here who not infrequently sexes someone up via chat?
This seems so impractical.
I am working on a case where our opponent is in the business of doing porn chat by text mesage to cell phones. How does this even work? (I'm mean I understand the telecom aspects, it's just the other aspects . . . ) I guess I don't understand because when I type on my cell phone or Blackberry I use both hands.
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:00 AM
122: And then there's the Catholic girls cliché.
Posted by J— | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:08 AM
My snugglebear (I intend to beat this joke past the point of death) and I are long-distance, and we've never done the chat sex, mostly because I can't help thinking we could just write scripts that would do the same thing and I could go watch television instead.
if (HotForYou;)
{
pretendMoodLighting;
pretendLingerie;
pretendOohBabyOohBabyOoh;
pretendFondle;
pretendOrgasm;
}
else
{
pretendRollOverandSleep;
}
I can see how it could theoretically be fun, but it just doesn't strike me as appealing.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:09 AM
The kid sounded either uninterested or bewildered: 'fetish? like the movie? oh, and schoolgirls. everyone likes plaid skirts.'
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:13 AM
125 is truly brilliant.
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:15 AM
Vibrate Mode.
hth
sh.fu
Posted by shpx.ohfu | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:15 AM
Uh, 128 is for idealist's 123.
Posted by shpx.ohfu | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:16 AM
I bet L's own students pass along these warnings to one another.
Eh?
Posted by L. | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:18 AM
Vibrate Mode.
hth
sh.fu
I'm not sure what this means, but I'm afraid to try it lest (1) my cell phone explode or (2) our office manager later confront me with a cell phone bill for exotic cell phone porn.
Posted by Idealist | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:25 AM
Has anyone here seen Primer? I saw it last night, and am very tempted to watch it again in order to try to figure it out, but wonder if anyone else has done so and if so, did it work?
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:32 AM
14:Please I would enjoy the lurk better if future references to me are in the form, "Comrade McManus" or "Cell Leader McManus" or best "Dallas Cell #1 M". Thank you.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:33 AM
these warnings
Beware of Gram, the one-eyed snake
The haand that jobs, the wood that spirts.
Beware the pervert Congressman, and get
Your homework done.
Posted by Felix | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:33 AM
125: lulz!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:34 AM
132: Yes. Also, listen to the commentary, if you've got it on DVD.
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:42 AM
If you could write scripts for your chat sex, you're doing it wrong.
Posted by temporarily anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:46 AM
I could probably modify it:
{
hangOnPhoneRinging;
whereWereWe;
return later;
}
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:50 AM
132: Yes, I saw it and liked it very much. I am not sure it holds up to rigorous re-watching, since much that we need to know isn't in the film, but it did give me great pleasure.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:53 AM
Another Republican ...h/t FDL
I do think there is a causal relationship between certain kinds of extreme sexual deviancy and authoritarianism, conservatism, or Republicanism, not in the sense that all Republicans are child molesters but in the sense that more child molesters are Republican than Democrats. The etiosis has yet to be determined.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:55 AM
Damn. I used it just for kicks, but going online to see if I was anywhere near meaning, appears if I was playing Scrabble, "etiosis" would get me in big trouble.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:03 AM
132: Yes, but I'd have to go back in time to figure it out.
OTOH, we watched V is for Vendetta last night and noted how frighteningly prescient it seemed to be. [And yes, I understand why Alan Moore was discomfitted by it; it's not really his Bakuninian anarchic vision of the necessity of destroying the old to build the new. But, hey, freedom's jes' another word/for nothin' left to lose...]
Posted by DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:12 AM
man, I will always mourn this guy I "met" when I was 21, because he was the only person I have ever encountered who was as good at internet sex as I am. Every other time, the relationship is a little, or a lot, one sided.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:14 AM
as good at internet sex as I am
I challenge you...to an internet sex fight to the finish!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:17 AM
Come again? Have you heard about my ultratalmudic vulvanic forcefield?
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:32 AM
There should be a way to compete in internet sex to a "last person standing" finish.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:46 AM
118: Chickenshit. I admit to internet sex under my own pseudonym. But thanks for this and for 137.
123, 125: I can't help it if some people lack imagination. I bet y'all never, ever think about sex unless you're actually going to have sex or masturbate, either.
130: I meant FL; I was trying to be subtle b/c of the whole redacted previous comments thing. As usual, my attempts at subtlety just end up being incomprehensible, though.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:50 AM
re 130: I think B is suggesting that you and your friends have enough sense to know who is creepy and stay away from same. I hope this is true.
Shouldn't you be studying?
Posted by L.'s Mom | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:53 AM
What's eating at me is how Mark Foley looks EXACTLY like a professor in my program, who has the same face, same hair, and the same intense, possibly mad stare.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:55 AM
Oh noes! No, I wasn't thinking of L, who is an actual real student, at all. I was making a joke about FL's old jokes--jokes really!--about student sexxoring.
Which none of us here ever do, or ever would do, because it's creepy and wrong. We only joke about it in a dark humor kind of way.
Okay! So now I am going to, um, go do something else.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:58 AM
Yes, you should conclude that the reason I don't find cybersex thrilling is due to my lack of imagination.
It's not that, really. It's just that the words & imagination don't turn me on at the computer, probably because normally on the computer I'm multi-tasking, and I'd probably end up looking up recipes for chili while waiting for a description to be IM'd; if it works for you, great.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:01 PM
On a wholly unrelated point, was I the only one who couldn't believe that this was a real threat? Has there been an outbreak of egg-related violence lately?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:04 PM
Holy. Shit. 49 & 58 are the funniest things I will read all day. Konami code? I want to have AWB's babies, right now.
Posted by Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:05 PM
but the chili would be SPICY and HOT.
Tia, you're right, I wouldn't stand a chance.
One funny thing about this: while in real life I take many steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, one of my colleagues is indeed rogering a recently former student.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:06 PM
153 - indeed. I've been quoting 58 around the internets (well, 2 or 3 places). It deserves to live forever.
Posted by Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:14 PM
How former? Was the graduation-bought champers still cold?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:15 PM
Some of my current students seem to enjoy making comments to me in front of other students that seem to suggest that we're involved in an erotic relationship. I wasn't sure what to do about this at first, but now I've figured it out.
Sultry green-eyed boy: So, um, AWB. [sigh] I guess I was pretty late to class today. Are you mad at me?
AWB: Oh, yes, I am, SGEB. I'm so mad I might just stay mad forever.
SGEB: Huh?
AWB: I mean that, whenever I'm tempted to think anything nice about you, I'll simply remember this moment, and sigh, and think, "How sad that was." I shan't recover from the shock. You may not want to come back.
That seems to break the tension nicely.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:18 PM
157: Some of my current students seem to enjoy making comments to me in front of other students that seem to suggest that we're involved in an erotic relationship
Really?! That seems exceedingly creepy.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:22 PM
Was something SGEB said in 157 supposed to suggest erotic relations? If so, it's too subtle for me.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:24 PM
I think it hangs on the character of the sigh, and the manner of speaking entire.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:27 PM
159: It's not what he says; it's how he says it. It's a class full of terrified, overwhelmed juniors and seniors who suddenly realize they're facing material way over their heads. This kid is rather fearless, and using a certain kind of quasi-sexual suggestiveness with me that, I think, is purposed to make all the other ladies in the class think he is teh hotness. It's working. So far, girls are actually crying when he speaks.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:28 PM
I really hope that this isn't just good luck, and that there's a new Carville behind the scenes pulling strings.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:28 PM
Not at all. Students regularly flirt with professors. I'll freely admit that I will flirt back, although with the caveat that my flirting, like AWB's dialogue above, might be described by those less honest as merely joking and, as she says, deflating the tension.
It's pretty damn easy, really, b/c most students are young enough that they don't *really* know they're flirting, so you can easily manage to both butter them up and keep them at arm's length without them realizing that's what you're doing.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:29 PM
I didn't get 58.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:30 PM
I suppose that "Your performance this term has been surprising and terribly disappointing" would be too blatant.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:32 PM
It was a Family Circus joke.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:32 PM
161: Yes, and often alpha-type boys, or those who aspire to be alpha-types, will try to pull that shit on youngish women instructors as a way of asserting dominance. You can ignore it and/or be a hardass over it, which gets you bad evals; or you can josh around ("flirt") back, as I and apparently AWB do. The latter makes them think that you're "cool," and keeps the alpha boys in line so they aren't disruptive and even "like" you, which means you get good evals *and* you can do good teaching.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:33 PM
164 - cf
Posted by Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:34 PM
163: I agree with this. Also, one must remember that students' sexual aggressiveness is almost never "about" you, the instructor, as a sexual object. It's a way of recasting intimidation as desire, or (as in the SGEB's method) a way of showing the rest of the class how badass you are.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:35 PM
Uh, pwned by 167.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:36 PM
164 - cf
Ohhhh. Thanks. In that case, 58 was funny.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:36 PM
One funny thing about this: while in real life I take many steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, one of my colleagues is indeed rogering a recently former student.
How common is this? I'm not aware of any cases myself, but then I'm not paying very close attention.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:38 PM
How common is this?
Pretty damn common, in my experience.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:39 PM
172: All the time, teo. At my undergrad institution, I knew at least ten different girls who were receiving 3am phone calls from the poet in residence to come over and give him blowjobs. I received a very forward invitation to have an affair with a prof in another department, and I knew of several grad students who were sleeping with their dissertation directors.
Of my peers, though, I only know of a few who have slept with their undergrads. It usually ends badly.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:41 PM
My ex-wide hit on her own creative writing instructor, but he chickened out. I was hit on, more or less, by the famous poet Robert Duncan. If you don't know who he is, shame on you, but he was famous back before you were born.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:45 PM
And people wonder why I don't want to go to grad school.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:45 PM
175: "ex-wife".
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:46 PM
I'm trying to think if I've been hit on by teachers. I suppose so, but less than I would have hoped. In undergrad, one of my profs was friendly and a bit flirty, but he was very low key about it, and it was never a problem when I didn't reciprocate. In high school I had a female teacher who loved me and said "Oh, ogged, yumm" when she saw my yearbook picture, but I took that as a maternal "yumm."
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:49 PM
164- ogged must have led a very sheltered life.
BUT: 168 - "start" isn't actually part of the code?!?! Are you shitting me?!
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:49 PM
176: I'd add that I feel extremely safe from any kind of sexual harassment or affair-suggestions in my Ph.D. program. I think undergrads are much more likely to be sexually manipulated (and manipulating) than grad students, for whom an affair is usually only a means to an end. Undergrads seem much less self-aware about the power dynamics of a sexual relationship with profs.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:50 PM
I'm just embarrassed that 168 taught me that my memory of Konami code was deeply flawed. No 99 lives for me!
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:52 PM
179 - maybe you should go set those idjits at wikipedia straight.
Posted by Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:53 PM
It happens all the time, and I think a big part of it is because there *is* a certain erotic frisson to a good professor/student relationship. And, like the theater, it can be kinda heady, especially as the show/semester is winding down. If you are silly, you can wind up doing silly things. It takes a cool head and/or, as Labs says, deliberate steps to avoid even the appearance of impropriety (i.e., avoiding situations like taking a student out for drinnks) to keep it in perspective.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:54 PM
178: They were both flirty, but as you say, being low-key. Which is pretty much the right way to do it.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 12:55 PM
Just recently I took a few classes and ended up with a big crush on a teacher half my age. She was cute, famous, quite friendly, and between husbands too.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:02 PM
180: It's more just that being in that environment sounds so, so creepy. As an undergrad right now I'm more or less totally oblivious to it (although I'm sure it's going on around me), but it seems like grad students are more aware of what's going on in their departments.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:04 PM
Of course, I am considering working on Capitol Hill, so yeah.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:04 PM
At my institution, any kind of romantic/sexual contact with current students will result in firing. Re 180: many undergrads seem to be exquisitely aware of their avenues of recourse, of which there are many. De facto, grad students lack these, since they're so dependent on good will.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:06 PM
One reason I'm a little bit unhappy about relationships between students and faculty is that other students are aware of them and this awareness changes the pedagogical dynamic for everyone.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:14 PM
Grad student-junior prof relationships don't strike me as terribly wrong (no worse than a usual office romance, which isn't high praise) as long as the prof isn't grading or advising the student. It's not weird for a 33-year-old to date a 25-year-old.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:16 PM
151: web cam.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:47 PM
Yeah, but it's not just the age thing; it's that whole argument about relative power structures and, as Labs says, the way it affects the department as a whole.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:50 PM
189: Solution: orgy!
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:54 PM
That's your solution for everything.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:55 PM
192: I can see it being okay if the department was big enough. Some departments are big enough that a prof and a grad student might never interact professionally.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 1:59 PM
I was hit on, more or less, by the famous poet Robert Duncan.
Better than being hit on by Ted Roethke, I suppose.
My College Democrats' alumni advisor--he later became a Congressional chief-of-staff--hit on me once (following a discussion of The Silmarillion of all things!). I guess he just couldn't wait to get to DC.
Posted by Paul | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:03 PM
when I was an undergrad (decades ago) I remember several profs sleeping with students. It messed up the students' lives, not too surprisingly.
I have since been on hiring committees, considering these same profs for jobs, and have seen it mess up the professors' lives (i.e. their past activity became common knowledge, and resulted in their being dismissed from consideration).
That is an indication of what a taboo it is now, decades later, to sleep with undergrads. It means the effective end of your career--at least the end of your chances of moving up to better jobs, possibly the end of your job altogether.
I am pretty sure that none of my departmental colleagues, in a variety of jobs, have ever hit on undergrads. (What happens in your department I don't know). There is a very, very strong social oppobrium attached to it, in addition to serious institutional penalties.
The result is that most of the professoriate I know are as scrupulous of their modesty and reputation as Victorian debutantes--because the penalties for disrepute are almost as severe (e.g. complete loss of job, reputation, and career).
Some people still put grad students in a different category. I think that's a mistake, but it's a harder case to make.
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:11 PM
I think I have mentioned elsewhere here that, at my MA graduation party, my thesis advisor drunkenly confessed that he'd always wanted to have sex with me. In the awkward silence that followed, he cleverly inserted, "And Kevin Spacey, but only if both of you were there, of course." I found it rather cute, and not at all threatening.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:28 PM
oh, sure--but think about how Kevin Spacey felt.
Posted by kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:33 PM
Didn't we have this thread?
http://www.unfogged.com/archives/week_2005_01_02.html#002789
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:35 PM
200: I love the long memory here. It's like the institutional memory at Oxford or something.
Posted by A White Bear | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:40 PM
I started to think about a comment that was remarkably like one of my comments on that thread and said, "That's not deja-vu"
Posted by benton | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 2:54 PM
198 reminds me of a thing in my job. I'm on the committee that evaluates associates firm-wide, votes on partnership nominations, sets salaries, hires and fires. You'd think there would be at least some attempts at bribery, minor flirtation, or such. Instead, at our annual meeting a couple of years ago, a young woman associate (whom I did not know) came up to me (out of the blue) and said, somewhat drunkenly, 'do you remember when you used to be fun?'
Posted by CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:02 PM
When I was a TA, I never ever got involved with any of my students, but I did have a secret grading policy of never giving perfect scores. I figured no test or problem set was so perfect that it couldn't be improved by also sleeping with me.
I didn't want all the students to sleep with me, some papers wouldn't be improved by also sleeping with me. But I wasn't going to penalize only the charming students, so I never gave any perfect scores to anyone in my several quarters of teaching. The kids never knew.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:07 PM
Maybe the girls in the class are swooning over his sultry green eyes.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:11 PM
That's some, uh, interesting pedagogy there, Megan.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:12 PM
Reed college has an actual policy of trashing every freshman's first written paper in the required freshman course, no matter how good it is. Sort of like establishing dominance in dog training. New profs are told that they were being watched, and that if they gave any freshman a good grade on their first paper, they wouldn't be at Reed long.
Scuttlebutt from a reliable source.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:16 PM
Did you mark down for impotence or premature ejaculation?
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:16 PM
205 is the result of attempting to post, failing to connect to the server, and only noticing the fact several hours later.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:18 PM
206 - They never knew and it just compressed the top of the curve. But if you get your papers back with a 99+ and the words SEE ME IN OFFICE HOURS across the top of the page, now you'll know why.
208 - Never touched 'em. But now I *am* wondering if I would have changed their test scores based on their extracurricular performance. Kindof a dicey game for them...
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:20 PM
Topical: the USPS just brought me Storytelling. Thanks, USPS.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:51 PM
Of course, I am considering working on Capitol Hill, so yeah.
Being a page isn't all it's cracked up to be, teo.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:56 PM
What Megan doesn't know is that we had a similar approach to course evaluations.
Posted by Megan's Former Students | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:58 PM
212: seriously, two days of running and three days of lifting every week, just to get those legs looking cute. It's a lifestyle, not a job.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 3:58 PM
How's being a Congressman?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:01 PM
213 - I got the highest evaluations the department had ever seen. But I baked them really excellent cookies.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:06 PM
But if you get your papers back with a 99+ and the words SEE ME IN OFFICE HOURS across the top of the page, now you'll know why.
Noted. Maybe I should start going to office hours.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:12 PM
Huh, half my comment didn't post. Are you serious about moving to the District, teo?
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:13 PM
Maybe. Depends if I can find a job.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:16 PM
Noted. Maybe I should start going to office hours.
There'll be cookies, little boy.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:17 PM
Cookies, you say?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:21 PM
Yes. And puppies.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:25 PM
Really excellent cookies, I hear.
Posted by redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:27 PM
I got the highest evaluations the department had ever seen.
Ah, but were they perfect?
Posted by Megan's Former Students | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:31 PM
Nope. Not perfect.
Off to catch the 4:10 train.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:39 PM
177: Does finding "ex-wide" much, much funnier mean I'm going to hell?
181: I confess, I remembered it being uuddlrlr, not lrlrudud, but the joke was too good to correct. If you ever need an easy visual cue for it I've found just the thing.
Posted by Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 4:52 PM
A tasty tidbit, vintage 1998:
"It's vile," said Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach [of the Ken Starr report on Clinton - RMP]. "It's more sad than anything else, to see someone with such potential throw it all down the drain because of a sexual addiction."
Posted by Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 5:01 PM
218: If at some point the DC based commenters outnumber the NY based commenters, maybe that should be taken into consideration when planning the text-inspired
coopco-op house.Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 6:05 PM
At this point it's actually somewhat more likely that I'll become one of the NY-based commenters. But it's still quite early.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 9:05 PM
speaking of that, I'm coming to dc after xmas for 10 days. who else is in dc? any apa attendees? (philosophical, not philological)
Posted by alameida | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:04 PM
You go to DC, like, every year. Don't you and Husband X ever want to visit University X?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:19 PM
I will be in DC around December 15th for some as-yet-undetermined length of time.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:26 PM
I hope to move to DC for at least a few months starting by the end of November.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:31 PM
Woo hoo! Since I have very little vacation time left, I probably won't be going back to Midwest Hometown for the whole week between Xmas and New Years and can probably swing a trip to DC. I want to meet the rosy toed one!
(And Teo and eb, of course, let me know when you will be in DC, too.)
Little bit Becks-style on top of jetlag = winning combination!
Posted by Becks | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:53 PM
Can I say that APA Eastern sucks for ruining Christmas?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 10:57 PM
groovy! I'll be there from the 27th to Jan 6. we can have a wing-ding. b-wo, if my family and all my highschool friends move to university x my pattern will likely change...
Posted by alameida | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:16 PM
235: yes. yes it does. Are you going?
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:22 PM
Hey, Cala's big chance to get some big lovin' before she and snuggybuggyboobear run off to Canuckleland.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:27 PM
Uh huh. And you think that's likely, you say?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:28 PM
239 to 236.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:29 PM
Thanks for radically increasing my chances of scoring, Ogged. Now I'll have to fall back on plan B, which involves getting really drunk and causally regulating Richard Boyd.
Who is actually nice, and I will not actually assault him.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-30-06 11:30 PM
Ben, you should come to the convention.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:04 AM
I dunno. I'm not really that interested in philosophy.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:06 AM
You know, the MLA this year is in Philadelphia, which isn't far from DC. We should figure out some kind of bi-disciplinary meetup, no?
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:10 AM
So what are you interested in?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:10 AM
(If the answer is corruption and alleged pederasty, have we got a city for you!)
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:12 AM
244: teh HOTT!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:12 AM
Music, and the new features in Python 2.5. (Actually only coroutines are really interesting to me.)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:13 AM
Shit. What a wasted opportunity to employ my favorite retort.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:14 AM
You have editing powers, Ben.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:22 AM
246: Do you mean Port St. Lucie?
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:25 AM
Is Port St. Lucie known for corruption as well?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 10- 1-06 12:31 AM
In any case, I don't think there are any philosophy conferences in Port St. Lucie this December, so no.
Posted by