They do catch the eye, particularly because she is right in the middle and she is the only one who seems to be doing a professional "pose for the camera" type pose.
Huh. I looked at the picture and thought: "That looks like a bad Photoshop job with Clinton's head." I thought it was some stupid office party and a co-worker thought it would be funny to inject Clinton into the photo after the fact.
(And I know nothing about photo manipulation, but doesn't his face look redder than everybody else's? And not just the drinker's nose.)
Okay, I realize this is not why you brought it up.
man, that was an unpleasant read, especially all the digs at her about being an "intern" because she was a young woman and not ugly. i hate the world.
i think i'm going to have to stop following links like that, in the interests of personal sanity.
i mean, god. when you have breasts, you have breasts. unless you pull out the ace bandages, that's just how it's going to be. people have *bodies*. people are people.
Actually, her pose is the mirror of the woman three to her left, but I notice Althouse isn't slagging her. She does set the land speed record for vapidity.
That said, they were the first thing I noticed. But I'm me.
maybe she could just chop the offending appendages off, so you can't see them anymore, and then she'd look professional. just like a man. what's a little blood and mutilation. perfect profile for the office.
Geezus fuck, sometimes blogs are like goddamn Peyton Place, with a bunch of old people gossiping over the fence at each other. Who hasn't been in a group photo where you didn't know quite what to do with yourself and ended up looking somehow weird or unlike everyone else? Doesn't Ann Althouse have something vaguely intellectual to talk about? Like the law, or politics, or something? If she wants to get on late-night teevee and do skits about photographs, then I'm sure Jon Stewart could use some more writers, given that everyone on his staff is leaving to start their own shows or be in the movies or both. The difference between jokes about Katherine Harris and Feministe in this case is that one is a joke, made in the context of a late-night joke program, and the other is an allegedly academic blogger writing a blog about the law and politics. If she wants to be funny, then she shouldn't write with all the dour seriousness of Cotton Mather getting ready to burn somebody when she looks at a photo of some blogger with Clinton. If the comment was made with a ha-ha, Monica Lewinsky strikes again, and laughed off as such, eh, who cares, you think it's funny or you don't. But here's Althouse passing this off like she's Sherlock Holmes and she's just found the headquarters of the League of Red-Headed Men or something. Sense of proportion, stat!
I had the same thought, Witt. He seems out of it. But we can never overestimate his capacity to induce allergic reactions on the right. There's a temptation, even though I'm not at all happy with him, for me to love him just because of it.
Ann Althouse is full of shit, and if we're playing what's feminist and what's not, posing for a camera and not draping yourself in sackcloth is way neutral compared to picking at other women for their appearance or the way they stand and hold themselves.
But I might as well call 'em like I see 'em. "Nasty old crone"? Intended ironically, I suppose, but doesn't come off well, to my ear, and just fuels the fire of women of different ages and degrees of conventional attractiveness picking at each other. If I were a man expressing an opinion on a dispute between a young woman and an older woman, and defending the young woman, I would choose different language.
If I were a man expressing an opinion on a dispute between a young woman and an older woman, and defending the young woman, I would choose different language.
Actually, her pose is the mirror of the woman three to her left, but I notice Althouse isn't slagging her.
That woman appears to be repulsed by the presence of the camera, instead of looking right at it with a gleaming smile.
She does set the land speed record for vapidity.
Also true. If I looked at that picture with other people around me I'd probably point to her and say "SOMEONE is certainly enjoying this photo shoot, ha ha." But I certainly wouldn't defend that as a reasonably statement. What a waste of time.
That said, they were the first thing I noticed. But I'm me.
The reason you can see her body shape is that she's wearing a pale sweater, and not black like the woman next to her. I guess that's a slutty thing to do in Wisconsin or wherever Althouse lives. You can pretty well make out the shape of the shameless hussy second from the left, too, although her cardigan tones it down a bit. Phew!
This picture also demonstrates what I believe was discussed on Unfogged earlier - that wearing black hides shadows (and is therefore slimming in certain circumstances). The woman right next to Feministe might also be wearing a Lana Turner-style sweater, but we'll never know because it is black instead of gray.
Why can't a woman/be more like some men? Say "nasty old crone"/and send cock photos to Ben?
But yes, I don't read Althouse much, except when she's being unpleasant. Which, judging from the links that signal her incidence of unpleasantry, is most of the time. Which I suppose means I read her a lot.
Fuck Althouse on general principle. I refuse to click through on the link, though I can guess what she says from Jessica's response. But we're all avoiding the important issue: who's the blonde?
Good lord. Is 27 really the age when negative reactions to political correctness (as they call it) set in? What can I expect in the coming months -- sudden, dearly held opinions about the estate tax? Maybe a newfound interest in handguns?
This sensation is a troubling first symptom, and yet totally undeniable.
Who are all of them? I recognize Atrios, John Aravosis, Jeralyn Merritt, Chris Bowers, and I think the grey-headed guy is Stirling Newbery, but no idea who the rest are.
Arg...this kind of article by Althouse just makes me frustrated about how, in the name of feminism, some women can attack others on baseless and clearly irrelivant ideas. Or rather, ideas firmly placed in (what I hope is dated) sexist rhetoric. The idea that women might feel comfortable in their own skin and not try to hide their more feminine characteristics (ie: NOT try to adopt the uniform of the male business world by wearing a boxy power-suit) should really be recognized as something feminism celebrates NOT (a la Althouse) criticize. What an incredibly unprofessional and apalling article. Althouse needs a serious tutorial of what feminism actually is before trying to side herself with us.
Isn't Jessica standing at the exact same angle as the person at the right end (our right) of the front row? So it's not standing at that angle that offends Althouse, it's doing so with boobies.
About feministing, in other discussions someone pointed out that the mudflap silhouette on their page is flipping the viewer off. That hadn't been apparent to me before.
I agreed with 13. Tom, 'political correctness' is a totally meaningless term, as evidenced by the fact that I actually don't know what you're reacting against.
It's tempting to slag Althouse in crone/hag language when she seems to be channeling the Church Lady. (What a tone--a perfect mingling of huffy condescension, prudery and stupidity.) But that would be wrong.
Hamsher's a stud. Someone wrote that she has written a great book about making NBK, naming names and the rest.
Who's the guy with the Balki posture, three to the right of her? He looks like he's worried that the Secret Service is going to find the cocaine-filled condoms he's stuffed into his rectum.
Check it out: she worked with Saiselgy's dad on From Hell. And, unlike apparently everyone else on earth, I really liked Apt Pupil. And Permanent Midnight, too. In fact, NBK is the worst of her films, I think.
WTF? Why are we so Wire and VM dependent? Can't we just convince Saiselgy's dad and Hamsher to make some good TV shows?
I like the new, rude Tim Burke, but if I seriously becoming permanently associated with receiving cock pictures even with the paradigm blogospheric Reasonable Man I'll probably be forced to shed a single tear.
Incidentally, the first page of a Google image search for "cock" includes thesethreepictures, all of which are safe for work. Also, the picture from this BBC article about the man who invented the cock-on-a-stick. He looks awfully happy about it.
Better, but still insufficiently partisan. The key fact about Althouse is that she is a Republican or conservative. All further sins and crimes flow inevitably.
Harsh toke. I'd send you a bouquet like the one I got when I changed my pseud, but I can't figure out how to link to comments in Safari. I trust you've seen it.
Also, on Althouse: what a complete tool. If she wants to harsh on the existence of teh b00byz, what's she doing picking on Jessica rather than the blonde two to Jessica's right whose neckline ends somewhere around her belly-button? Oh, that's right, it's not about teh b00bz0rz at all, it's that some conservatives will take any chance to remind us how bitter they are that Clinton didn't resign.
Not only did I notice the boobs at once in the picture; I didn't even realise Clinton was there till I read the comments. That's prosopagnosia in action. Also, what's with the man on the extreme left shoving something vibrating into his pocket with one hand and checking the effect with the other?
One person out of a group of Net-addicted shut-ins is adept at posing for a photograph. Ergo, she must be a hypocritically-anti-feminist whore, particularly because she has pictures on her site that show women about the ankle.
Also, I would like it if all blogging software could incorporate code such that "X nails it" would automatically be converted to "I strongly agree with X, but then I am a tool".
37 and 42: Stirling Newberry's picture on TPM cafe is his droopy, "I am a composer" face. In real life he has a mop of hair and shleps around in his corduroy jacket.
From the Althouse article, you'd expect F-cups, a come-hither expression, and a spandex tube top.
Jessica looks very nice. Althouse needs to find other things to do with her time because Jessica's only crime is wearing perfectly appropriate business casual clothing and looking young & attractive.
And dude, that is not a tight top nor are those aggressive boobs.
I like this take from Tracy Clark-Flores Salon. (Site pass etc. necessary.) And reading Althouse's comments, jeez, you might think that when a lot of people start chiming in "You're right, I'm not a feminist and this is exactly why I don't like feminists," she might reconsider whether she's really captured the feminist high ground.
I've been thinking a lot about these issues of irony (&belief &power) lately. Let me take a different example for a second, and example I was using just in an email this past Monday. Twisty Faster is fond of calling people who are into BDSM "sex dorks" and the spectacle "unattractive." I don't particularly flatter myself that anyone would want to watch me have sex no matter what kind I'm having; I'm kind of dumpy; so, frequently, are my sex partners; things get awkward or go wrong, but I'm also pretty clear that the purpose of sex is not to look pretty or create a spectacle, and I'm also pretty sure that what argues that it is begins with "P," as Twisty would say. But maybe Twisty is ironically appropriating patriarchal language. But on the other hand, it's pretty clear, as one reads her blog, that Twisty actually believes the things she's saying ironically. It's great to be asexual, saves you some tsuris I'm sure, but it's not great to shame other people for what they're doing in bed. You shouldn't do this because it gives power to the patriarchy is a legitimate argument, although one with which I would ultimately disagree even though I accept a ton of its premises, but you shouldn't do this because it's not pretty is not, unless one of your hidden premises is Patriarchy, Patriarchy sis boom bah! It's not a huge deal, in that as an asexual she's speaking from a minority position, and not a powerful one, but when I, as a feminist, see other feminists essentially using the patriarchy's tools I think, "They shouldn't do that." And actually, it's a bigger deal than I'm saying if you care about how feminists are going to carve out their own thoughts about sex as a group, and make spaces for women to talk about it, as I in fact do. Twisty Faster used to be my superego; only the blow job post freed me. So in this case, the "irony", when you actually examine it, just flattens out into one layer of meaning that doesn't interestingly critique anything. Actually, I think the main point of this entire comment is going to be self-consciousness!=irony.
Here's another example, ironically from a Twisty Faster post (a good one): This woman defends the sports corset as "edgy ironic." (And says lots of other painfully stupid things.) But where, I ask, is the irony? You're wearing a corset to work out. No amount of self-consciousness about the problems with that make what you're doing ironic, because in the end, no matter how you try to poof it out, it flattens out to the exact same thing: I am pretty, please love me. I'm not even saying women shouldn't try to look hot at the gym if they have the urge; we all make our compromises; it's not like I never dress up to say, I am pretty, please love me. But I don't flatter myself that what I am doing is ironic because I am self-conscious about it.
I actually have serious trouble with the defense of BDSM as ironic, or not real. It's delimited, yes, but I think Twisty is right that in the end, you're still bound and gagged (or whatever you're up to), and you're subverting nothing through the sexual act. I think Twisty is wrong that that's the only thing that's happening; you're also, under the best circumstances, forming an intimate bond with your partner of a sort that you maybe couldn't get to without the power exchange, and that's important too; you are maybe, through reenactment and catharsis, getting some greater understanding of your own history and emotional life, though this is a best case scenario. And people have their desires that were yes at least partly socialized, but once they have them, I think it's ultimately less patriarchal to say, yes, have what you want (so long as its consensual); don't feel ashamed. Self-consciousness is a good thing here because it prevents you getting stuck in situations you don't want to be in, and because it helps you express yourself and be more than just an object, but it does not amount to irony.
The reason I was thinking of all this this week is precisely because on this blog it's not uncommon for actual misogyny to be draped in this cloak of irony. So with the highest degree of charity, assuming the best of intentions on the part of the speaker, where, really, is the irony of any interest or depth in a young man calling an older woman who's in a dispute with a younger one a "nasty old crone"? There's self consciousness, yes, but self-consciousness is not a get out of jail free card to say any sexist thing that comes to mind, even if you think you don't really mean it. It would be more interesting to say, "I had an impulse to call AA a 'nasty old crone; it just goes to show how dichotomous are our ideas of women," or something. Good intent does not absolve you of any criticism of the sexist effects of your language and actions; I believe that was covered in Guideline 3.
And if complaining that people who are trying to examine and criticize the implications of speech are being "politically correct" is not the lowest form of intellectual vacuity, I don't know what is.
When Althouse takes the "look at the shameless, big-breasted chippie" route, "nasty old crone" is an entirely appropriate response by way of turning the same sort of rhetoric back on itself. Saying "I had an impulse etc." isn't more interesting to me (YMMV, of course); it's painstakingly belaboring a point that is already blindingly apparent.
Nobody here has mentioned Althouse's age or appearance in response to any of her other breathtakingly silly arguments that have been linked here previously because we don't care.
When Rabbi Gellman takes the "cosmopolitan Jews are weak and bad etc." route, it's entirely appropriate for a non-Jew to say "That kike Rabbi Gellman" by way of turning the rhetoric back on itself. It wouldn't betray any latent anti-Semitism.
In the end, not in the mouth of a young man who makes a big project on his blog of celebrating attractive women. Part of it comes down to your position as speaker. It's not the place of men to call women "nasty old crones," and it doesn't turn the rhetoric back on itself, it participates in it.
First time here, I was following the Althouse sillilness. One thing I did notice, you liberal guys and gals sure cuss a lot! You also name call a lot. I notice the folks on the right do that too, but your side wins the potty mouth award.
Also, is calling Ann an old crone that different than what she did? Isn't it still name calling?
Note to trolls: You must arrive with baked goods. Today I'm placing an order for a light angelfood cake, with raspberry and dark chocolate dipping sauces.
And defending Althouse calling Valenti names but getting all in a tizzy about 'crone' is pretty retarded. Doing so without bringing cake is unconscionable.
I'm not sure this discussion tracks, because I don't think ogged's use of "old crone" was ironic. He meant to say something nasty about Althouse, he reached into the toolkit and found "old crone," checked by his own internal heuristic whether it was hadath (thanks again to your mom, Weiner), decided it wasn't, and used it to be hurtful. His heuristic might be wrong--though I remain skeptical about formal determinations of wrongness, especially as my own heuristic says the c-word is the big unmentionable, but its use is unobjectionable to many women here--but that wrongness doesn't make his use ironic.
Similarly, I don't think Apo's justification works, because I don't think such is (thought, to the extent he wants, ogged is obviously best placed to speak to this) intended or necessary.
The REAL problem is that people on the left have no freakin sense of humor. This is why they (you?)reapeatedly summon up so much absurdly misplaced, disproportionately furious outrage over trivial things--and it's why Air America is on its death bed, among other things.
Althouse writes these puff pieces to be entertaining. And they are entertaining (a nice break from serious legal issues)--but not nearly so entertaining as the overwrought, inane, outraged responses to her posts from the people whom she skewers and their defenders. The irony of these--indeed, the blatant hypocrisy--gets me giggling every time.
So I guess I should thank you for that.
87: I don't think it's cool coming out of ANY speaker's mouth (though it is marginally more distateful coming from a guy). Responding in kind is letting Althouse set the terms of the debate, rather than truly calling her on her own sexism.
So, um, let me see if i understand all of this. A breast-obsessed woman (look at Feministing for all of ten seconds, and you will figure that out), poses in front of a man famous for adultry, wearing an outfit that showed off HER breasts, in a pose clearly designed to accentuate the same.
So Althouse calls her out for it, and rightfully so. And then Jessica is mad for, let me get this straight, the fact that her looks were judged. Mmm, hmm.
And then in turn you attack Althouse for all of the above, calling her a "nasty old crone."
Mmm hmm.
Sorry, but all this shows me what i have believed for a long time: the democratic party has warped true feminism.
True feminists would have told Bill Clinton to take a hike years ago.
True feminists would have been unimpressed with Hillary Clinton--and if Hillary was a true feminist, she also would have told Bill to take a hike years ago.
True feminists are people like Althouse, not this Jessica twit.
Wow. I am so confused. Would the trolls, in addition to leaving pastries, please enumerate the acceptable poses a young woman may assume when being photographed? Thanks.
Who the fuck cares what the trolls think? Jeebus. Is it likely that any explanations any provide for their support of Althouse in this is likely to convince any of us? Pretty much not, if only because we (or at least I) will doubt both the sincerity of the argument and the worldview that motivates it.
The mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging left is frightened by an intelligent, independent woman like Althouse. The left prefers to have women fitting into their pre-conceived little molds. When confronted by an intelligent, independent woman, leftists show their true inner uglyness.
Those guys probably don't actually need to use image files for all the picture numbers. It just makes the site slower to load.
Also, these are some really unhealthy-looking bones whose name I don't actually know; I guess that's around the pelvis? I suspect they aren't supposed to jut out like that. (Also nsfw, visible bqqbies. I got there by a random click, honest.)
I saw the photo and, umhmm, it's a 'posed' photo, as in, Yearbooks? In fact, she is posed exactly as the man on the far right, except, he is sans breasts (apparently to avoid drawing comment).
I'm guessing Ann's photo albums are a dreary lot, what with all the women wearing baggy sweatshirts and jogging pants. (ahem)
Actually, if you click through all of the pictures (or, uh, so I'm told...), you'll see several familiar faces. They seem to be uncredited, as far as I can tell.
These are not the same picture with one being a blow up of the other. One easy way to spot it is to look at the man in the blue shirt on the far left. In the blowup his hands are apart, in the smaller jpg image his hands are held together. The reason I say this makes a difference is the pose of the lady in question is different in these photos. Look and see for yourselves. At the very least this arguement at this stage involves two different pictures and that should be recognized.
Here's how Althouse summarizes the Krissy Scalzi bar episode: A woman had lashed out with sudden, physical violence against a man who'd been trying to pick her up in a bar.
Man, she's starting to remind me of Mary McCarthy on Lillian Hellman, "Every word she says is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'."
84:I actually thought a long while on what really nasty thing I could say about Althouse that would really hurt yet not be sexist or patriarchal. Calling her a "Republican" or "conservative" was pretty filthy to me, but somehow I didn't think Althouse would be sufficiently mortified or offended.
In the picture posted here she's facing the camera a bit more and smiling. That's about it. Everything else is basically the same and I think it's pretty risible to claim that it's this difference (which, after all, it took a "CloseObserver" to point out) at the heart of the "posed/unposed" claims.
YoYo: Nice try, but neither coot nor curmudgeon refer to the reproductive abilities (a witch who has passed meopause or who is over 50-56 years old) or looks (an ugly, evil looking old woman) of the person named. Keep looking
When I first looked at the picture my only impression was "wow, that woman in the center is very attractive." I don't think I noticed her breasts especially, any more than her pretty face, eyes, hair, etc.
I didn't even notice Clinton in the background there.
Althouse is a fairly young nasty crone. I imagine someone has said this already. She has many nasty crone decades ahead of her, and if science continues to advance, she may continue to be a nasty crone until the end of time.
The guy on the left with the grey hair is Dave Johnson, my ex-partner at my ex-site Seeing the Forest, one of the sharpest and most underappreciated guys on the net. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and he's much more sensible and temperate than I am.
"On that note, I must have chatted with at least half a dozen other bloggers about the pics when they came out, mostly inane stuff you do when looking at pictures of people you consider friends. And not one person said anything about Jessica other than, “What’s she looking at?” In order for her to really stand out, you have to pretty much feel that young women don’t belong at such functions." ...Marcotte
It may not be true, but it is nasty & works with the "American Taliban" theme. I think we have to exaggerate the threat.
DoublePlus: Premature is the word I'd use regarding your decision on what "works for you". The word crone references reproductive inferiority as well as an unattractive, offputting, physical attributes. Eccentric and crotchety are not in the same category, but you did get the man-part right.
Hey, come on guys. All of the women are in front, because femmes are usually (like me) short. All of the women are posing, more or less, but you only notice the young one, because she's the cutest. (You might notice Hamsher). She could have been wearing the burka and it would be about the same.
crone [ kr?n ] (plural crones) noun
Definition:
1. offensive term: an offensive term that deliberately insults a woman's age, appearance, and temperament ( insult )
2. woman over 40: a woman aged over 40
( approving; used by one woman to another )
Oh man. I read this on Althouse's yesterday and became totally sucked into watching the thing unfold. It was one of the most thoughtlessly cruel attacks I've seen on the web in a while. While I'd come to think of Althouse as a disingenuous enabler, I hadn't quite realized how vicious and unrepentant (and vain) she could be. Reading her applaud the most misgynist comments and proclaim her utter boredom with even substantive criticisms--well, it was just ugly.
Straying from the topic at hand, 151 is a good example of what ultimately made me stop reading Pandagon - Amanda Marcotte's proclivity for telling you what her targets are really thinking.
Attributing the worst possible motives to your opposition is a good thing;also hyperbole and polemic. Gilliard & Marcotte & Wolcott are my role models.
163.---Actually, Wolfson, I'm pretty sure that back in the day "crone" did refer to post-menopausal women. I'm dimly recalling some commentary from my medieval lit course and don't feel like looking it up, but that's my distinct impression of the word's origins....
166: Mostly a lurker. I've posted here occasionally using my real first name, but someone else here shares it now. (Damn him, that's my unusual first name!)
Oh, and I don't like hyperbole and polemic either. I especially don't like it when it's coming from my own side. I expect TexCons and shmibertarians to be intellectually dishonest, but we liberals should be above that.
The word crone references reproductive inferiority
Huh? "Inferiority"? Third stage of life, [Maiden-Mother-Crone] but not "reproductive inferiority."
"Crone" actually derives from the vulgar Latin for "cantankerous". A stage of life that can be quite pleasant, but for the chronic knee problems and lack of good cronic. Would I call Althouse a crone? No, she doesn't deserve that stature; I'd call her a purblind idiot. Althouse is clearly, with that "intern" comment, projecting her hatred of Clinton onto the first available female with a smile on her face.
A tempest in a C-cup. Were Jessica trying to show off her breasts, her back would be arched. It isn't. She's posed the way most people pose in a group picture ["Get closer, turn sideways, squeeze in, you back-row people - Smile!"]
But Ogged should be ashamed of himself for denigrating the wise elder women of the tribe by associating them with Althouse. No pastries for Ogged until he grovels at the feet of the crones and apologises!
"Now, be it known that Ann Althouse is nasty old crone. There's no excuse for a post like this."
And calling someone who disagrees with you a "twat", "prick," "prude;" or letting it "be known she is a nasty old crone" is in what way excusable? How is such behavior any different from the crudity and inappropriate focus you are objecting to and reviling ?
Lou, mamaM, have a good cry. The world has been overcome by mean, sexist, liberal bastards like me. There's no hope for innocents like yourselves.
I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Ann Althouse is a wonderful, caring person who only had Ms. Feministing's best interests at heart. what she said was in no way nasty, shallow, or catty. And if only we spoke reasonably to Ann, I'm sure that she would listen to us thoughtfully. But instead, we let down our side by being mean.
Prude: a person excessively concerned about propriety and decorum
Why is not excusable to criticize AA for excessive concern with propriety and decorum (and, I'd add, sex)? She brought up propriety and decorum in a sour, nasty way.
I didn't even notice Clinton in the background there.
This, definitely. The guy looks different since he's been in office; wilted, somehow. Also, I imagine I don't have a Clinton fixation and a desperate need to find something wrong with a picture of Clinton. I know! The woman in front has dark brown hair and is young!
John: Points subtracted for resorting to sarcasm. If being thoughful, reasonable, or at the very least moderately respectful of each other no longer works in this country, what's next? What do you propose?
If being thoughful, reasonable, or at the very least moderately respectful of each other no longer works in this country, what's next?
What a strange defense of someone who looked at someone else's picture on the Internet, name-called, and then became upset when she was not responded to respectfully.
This could be fun. Weiner, I think you're a whore. Tia is a twat. Téo is a prick. Now, engage me! Don't call names! You must engage me!
MamaM, I'm not trying to score points with you. Or with Althouse. And sarcasm can be a good thing. And your post was silly.
Civil discourse hasn't worked in this country since Gingrich became Speaker of the House in 1994. I can explain this in enormous detail -- Gingrich was a very nasty piece of work.
1994 is an arbitrary date, and probably late. There are a certain number of hapless fools wandering around in the middle even today, and I pity those fools, but there are a whole hell of a lot more concern trolls mincing around and trying to score points whenever our side seems to be playing by their rules (the ones they've been winning with).
back to the beginning -- this really was disgusting, because Jessica is obviously not a sexpot or a tease or a fashion queen or a trophy-bride-to-be. She's just attractive and pleasant-looking in quite an unassuming way.
Althouse is on the list of less-crazy less-nasty Republicans, as Reynolds and his trophy bride used to be. (Yes, she does look like one, and a counseling psych PhD doens't make her a heavy hitter.) So really, as I've been saying, there's no there there anymore. We smash them, or they smash us.
And these people still believe "Clinton was disgraced forever -- and why doesn't everyone just admit it?"
Emerson, was Dr. Helen ("trophy bride" phweet! 10-yard penalty for Tiarule violation) ever on the list? Her archives go back only to Sept. 2005 and are batshit crazy from the beginning. See this gem from the second week.
183: Oops, sorry man. If it makes you feel better, I never noticed you posting under that name until after I began posting with this name. Not saying you didn't, just that I never noticed it. (And ironically at the time I almost chastised you for trying to steal my name.)
If Brock is your authentic, honest-to-God real-life name, I feel a little bad for stealing it, since -- here's a confession -- it's not actually my real name. If you really want it back I'm willing to relinquish and change my handle. I could start posting as "Cock Landers", I suppose.
Way upthread: So, I'm pretty sure Madison is not noted for its conservative dress styles, when it's not freezing....
Uh, no. No, it's not.
In fact, even when it is freezing the dress styles aren't always conservative. One of my favorite games to play when the temperature drops below freezing is to head outside in nice warm winter clothing and watch all the little freshman girls in miniskirts and tube tops shuddering outside the trendoid bars. Nothing prurient, I just like laughing at stupidity every now and then.
Wow, spend a day with the kids and miss all the fun on the internet.
For my introduction to this thread, I'm going to admit to something stupid. I opened the photo before reading anything else, looked at it a long while thinking about what the controversy might be *and never noticed Bill Clinton*.
I saw Jessica right away, saw that she stood out (ok, I noticed she was hot) and figured the debate would be like our previous debates over remarks made about Jessica Biel's apperance. I compared Jessica from Feministing to the other schlubs in the photo, but never noticed that one of the other schlubs used to be President.
Are they invited to stay and partake with you or consigned to the floor to be tossed a few scraps? Or is there a seperate drinking fountain reserved for nasty crones and sillies?
Oops, Separate drinking fountains for trolls who can't spell might be a good place to start, then you could move on to refuse service those you deem unreasonable, no matter what flavor of pastry they bring.
Wow, some commentors sure are adept at missing the point.
The picture, the way she is dressed, her boobs... none of these things is the point.
The point is, the woman front and center in the picture is a self-described feminist who is cheerfully dining with a probable rapist, definite groper, and one who admitted to sexually harassing his employee.
Why is it that Bill Clinton isn't a pariah among feminists? Is it just because he appointed Ruth Ginsberg, so you can continue to have abortions on a whim? Does that give him a pass for groping women (apparently to Gloria Steinem it does), sexually harassing (Monica Lewinsky) them, and raping (Juanita Broaddrick) them?
"Insty just linked to this, because "nasty old crone" is convenient for him."
Actually, hypocrisy is why a lot of us left the left. It was not convenient, it was a symptom of dishonesty and moral (even logical) decay. I am not referring to the author of this blog, she just took a cheap shot and got caught. I missed the point of Ann's original post because I think the breast comments got in the way. (Really, I did not MEAN it to come out that way.)
But I would not get my picture taken with George Wallace or David Dukes because they are (or were in Wallace's case) racist morons. Same goes for Pat Buchanen whom I consider to be a mean spirited twit. It DOES look hypocritical for a person who self-labels as a feminist to have their picture take with a man who has been haunted by sexual misconduct in just the same way. For me, that is the point, not how someone looks or how they posed. I voted for Clinton, once. Then I thought better of it.
Trey (looking for a really good potty mouth award)
I'm sorry, but is someone manufacturing pretend outrage over being asked to bring along pretend pastry to the pretend Internet gathering she's trolling?
Minchau, Trey, most of us figured out what we thought about Clinton about 8 years ago, and most of us have gone on to other things. You haven't. Get a life, go to a steps group, suck on a pistol, I don't care. Life is hard for you, I know, but we have other people to care about. Lleave us alone.
Most of us have more or less mixed feelings about Clinton, but the stuff you're spouting is bullshit.
Trey, are you waiting for someone to beg you to return to the left? I'll be right over and beg. Just stay where you are. I love you, man!
239: She may be pretending to find the "bring pastry" line sexist, not realizing that (a) it's a preexisting gender-neutral tradition (b) since she started posting as "mamaM," most of us probably assumed she was someone named "Mamam" going pseudonymous.
I think I'm more or less in the tank for Beyerstein. I suspect she and I would disagree about various parts of this whole kerfuffle, but I like this bit of hers:
"I agree that, initially, Ann wasn't judging Jessica by her looks. For the most part she and her commenters were just using her picture as fodder for cheap Clinton/Lewinsky laughs. But when Jessica confronted her, Ann felt compelled to justify her trash talking. After all, Ann Althouse doesn't engage in idle trash talk. No, she's a serious intellectual. There must be a principle at stake."Majikthise
Has anyone every noticed that people who use "Dr [first name]" tend to be a bit whacked? Dr Laura, Dr Phil, Dr Bob, Dr Helen? And even Dr Ruth [does she really think grocery clerks think dirty thoughts when people buy cucumbers??]
They do catch the eye, particularly because she is right in the middle and she is the only one who seems to be doing a professional "pose for the camera" type pose.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:45 PM
Yeah, they jump right out at you. She should probably wear a burka.
Posted by Blume | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:50 PM
Huh. I looked at the picture and thought: "That looks like a bad Photoshop job with Clinton's head." I thought it was some stupid office party and a co-worker thought it would be funny to inject Clinton into the photo after the fact.
(And I know nothing about photo manipulation, but doesn't his face look redder than everybody else's? And not just the drinker's nose.)
Okay, I realize this is not why you brought it up.
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:50 PM
man, that was an unpleasant read, especially all the digs at her about being an "intern" because she was a young woman and not ugly. i hate the world.
i think i'm going to have to stop following links like that, in the interests of personal sanity.
i mean, god. when you have breasts, you have breasts. unless you pull out the ace bandages, that's just how it's going to be. people have *bodies*. people are people.
i can't talk anymore.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:51 PM
Just because everyone else stands like a schlub doesn't mean she should. Also, I thought it was a photoshop or cardboard standup of BC.
Posted by NL | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:52 PM
Actually, her pose is the mirror of the woman three to her left, but I notice Althouse isn't slagging her. She does set the land speed record for vapidity.
That said, they were the first thing I noticed. But I'm me.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:52 PM
or, what blume said.
maybe she could just chop the offending appendages off, so you can't see them anymore, and then she'd look professional. just like a man. what's a little blood and mutilation. perfect profile for the office.
jesus. i'm going to stop reading now. bye.
Posted by mmf! | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:53 PM
Althouse has been demonstrating she's completely fucking insane for quite some time now. Whaddya gonna do?
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:53 PM
Geezus fuck, sometimes blogs are like goddamn Peyton Place, with a bunch of old people gossiping over the fence at each other. Who hasn't been in a group photo where you didn't know quite what to do with yourself and ended up looking somehow weird or unlike everyone else? Doesn't Ann Althouse have something vaguely intellectual to talk about? Like the law, or politics, or something? If she wants to get on late-night teevee and do skits about photographs, then I'm sure Jon Stewart could use some more writers, given that everyone on his staff is leaving to start their own shows or be in the movies or both. The difference between jokes about Katherine Harris and Feministe in this case is that one is a joke, made in the context of a late-night joke program, and the other is an allegedly academic blogger writing a blog about the law and politics. If she wants to be funny, then she shouldn't write with all the dour seriousness of Cotton Mather getting ready to burn somebody when she looks at a photo of some blogger with Clinton. If the comment was made with a ha-ha, Monica Lewinsky strikes again, and laughed off as such, eh, who cares, you think it's funny or you don't. But here's Althouse passing this off like she's Sherlock Holmes and she's just found the headquarters of the League of Red-Headed Men or something. Sense of proportion, stat!
Posted by Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:54 PM
I had the same thought, Witt. He seems out of it. But we can never overestimate his capacity to induce allergic reactions on the right. There's a temptation, even though I'm not at all happy with him, for me to love him just because of it.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:55 PM
Three to her right, I guess. Left as you look at the picture.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:55 PM
Doesn't Ann Althouse have something vaguely intellectual to talk about
Haven't read much Althouse, I take it.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:56 PM
Ann Althouse is full of shit, and if we're playing what's feminist and what's not, posing for a camera and not draping yourself in sackcloth is way neutral compared to picking at other women for their appearance or the way they stand and hold themselves.
But I might as well call 'em like I see 'em. "Nasty old crone"? Intended ironically, I suppose, but doesn't come off well, to my ear, and just fuels the fire of women of different ages and degrees of conventional attractiveness picking at each other. If I were a man expressing an opinion on a dispute between a young woman and an older woman, and defending the young woman, I would choose different language.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 9:57 PM
If I were a man expressing an opinion on a dispute between a young woman and an older woman, and defending the young woman, I would choose different language.
Ditto, FWIW.
Posted by Witt | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:00 PM
Actually, her pose is the mirror of the woman three to her left, but I notice Althouse isn't slagging her.
That woman appears to be repulsed by the presence of the camera, instead of looking right at it with a gleaming smile.
She does set the land speed record for vapidity.
Also true. If I looked at that picture with other people around me I'd probably point to her and say "SOMEONE is certainly enjoying this photo shoot, ha ha." But I certainly wouldn't defend that as a reasonably statement. What a waste of time.
That said, they were the first thing I noticed. But I'm me.
I am also you.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:02 PM
If I were a man
You aren't.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:02 PM
The reason you can see her body shape is that she's wearing a pale sweater, and not black like the woman next to her. I guess that's a slutty thing to do in Wisconsin or wherever Althouse lives. You can pretty well make out the shape of the shameless hussy second from the left, too, although her cardigan tones it down a bit. Phew!
What a tedious crank that Althouse is.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:05 PM
You aren't.
That's true.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:06 PM
This picture also demonstrates what I believe was discussed on Unfogged earlier - that wearing black hides shadows (and is therefore slimming in certain circumstances). The woman right next to Feministe might also be wearing a Lana Turner-style sweater, but we'll never know because it is black instead of gray.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:06 PM
pwn3d by 17
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:07 PM
Why can't a woman/be more like some men? Say "nasty old crone"/and send cock photos to Ben?
But yes, I don't read Althouse much, except when she's being unpleasant. Which, judging from the links that signal her incidence of unpleasantry, is most of the time. Which I suppose means I read her a lot.
Posted by Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:07 PM
Fuck Althouse on general principle. I refuse to click through on the link, though I can guess what she says from Jessica's response. But we're all avoiding the important issue: who's the blonde?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:09 PM
Good lord. Is 27 really the age when negative reactions to political correctness (as they call it) set in? What can I expect in the coming months -- sudden, dearly held opinions about the estate tax? Maybe a newfound interest in handguns?
This sensation is a troubling first symptom, and yet totally undeniable.
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:10 PM
Is 27 really the age when negative reactions to political correctness (as they call it) set in?
I don't know about that, but it was the age when really nasty hangovers set in for me.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:11 PM
Maybe a newfound interest in handguns?
You should be so lucky.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:13 PM
Who are all of them? I recognize Atrios, John Aravosis, Jeralyn Merritt, Chris Bowers, and I think the grey-headed guy is Stirling Newbery, but no idea who the rest are.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:13 PM
What's the guy on the far left doing with his pocket?
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:14 PM
Arg...this kind of article by Althouse just makes me frustrated about how, in the name of feminism, some women can attack others on baseless and clearly irrelivant ideas. Or rather, ideas firmly placed in (what I hope is dated) sexist rhetoric. The idea that women might feel comfortable in their own skin and not try to hide their more feminine characteristics (ie: NOT try to adopt the uniform of the male business world by wearing a boxy power-suit) should really be recognized as something feminism celebrates NOT (a la Althouse) criticize. What an incredibly unprofessional and apalling article. Althouse needs a serious tutorial of what feminism actually is before trying to side herself with us.
Posted by Margot | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:14 PM
And who's the poor sap whose face got completely blocked?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:14 PM
Isn't Jessica standing at the exact same angle as the person at the right end (our right) of the front row? So it's not standing at that angle that offends Althouse, it's doing so with boobies.
About feministing, in other discussions someone pointed out that the mudflap silhouette on their page is flipping the viewer off. That hadn't been apparent to me before.
I agreed with 13. Tom, 'political correctness' is a totally meaningless term, as evidenced by the fact that I actually don't know what you're reacting against.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:17 PM
What's the guy on the far left doing with his pocket?
Maybe a newfound interest in handguns?
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:17 PM
You gotta feel a little sorry for Ann Althouse...she's *always* wrong. How sad.
Posted by Guest | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:18 PM
I read both posts at Feministe before I came here. Why isn't Ogged reading Feministe?
First thing I noticed was the glass of wine. Second was Dave Johnson, cause beards and gray hair are just ultimate cool.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:19 PM
I guess that's a slutty thing to do in Wisconsin or wherever Althouse lives.
So, I'm pretty sure Madison is not noted for its conservative dress styles, when it's not freezing....
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:20 PM
So Stirling Newbery is really Dave Johnson. That's so sneaky.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:23 PM
I'd seen this at LGM; Althouse is a shmeminist as well as a shmibertarian.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:26 PM
Stirling's picture is over at TPM if you want to see what he looks like. I think he has banned me from BOP.
There is a Feministe and a Feministing. The second blogname bothers me a little, I must confess. I must.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:27 PM
30: that was by design
Posted by tom | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:31 PM
I agreed with 13.
Especially with the "intended ironically" part.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:35 PM
It's tempting to slag Althouse in crone/hag language when she seems to be channeling the Church Lady. (What a tone--a perfect mingling of huffy condescension, prudery and stupidity.) But that would be wrong.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:35 PM
38: What was by design?
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:37 PM
37: Newberry looks nothing like the picture I had in my head. I wonder where I got my mental image.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:39 PM
39: WTFever. Not funny.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:41 PM
who's the blonde?
Jane Hamsher.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:46 PM
Is the redhead Christy Hardin Smith?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:46 PM
I believe so.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:49 PM
Jane Hamsher was the producer for Natural Born Killers!?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:53 PM
Hamsher's a stud. Someone wrote that she has written a great book about making NBK, naming names and the rest.
Who's the guy with the Balki posture, three to the right of her? He looks like he's worried that the Secret Service is going to find the cocaine-filled condoms he's stuffed into his rectum.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:55 PM
Jane Hamsher was the producer for Natural Born Killers!?
And From Hell, which was written by Rafael Yglesias, father of Matt. That's some good bloggy connection action right there.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:57 PM
49: Damn. The things you learn.
Who's the guy with the Balki posture
I think he might be the other AmericaBlog guy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 10:59 PM
47: SCMTim is correct. The book is "Killer Instinct."
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:00 PM
Check it out: she worked with Saiselgy's dad on From Hell. And, unlike apparently everyone else on earth, I really liked Apt Pupil. And Permanent Midnight, too. In fact, NBK is the worst of her films, I think.
WTF? Why are we so Wire and VM dependent? Can't we just convince Saiselgy's dad and Hamsher to make some good TV shows?
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:01 PM
Also, I think the guy on the far left, putting the phone in his pocket, is the fellow from LiberalOasis.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:02 PM
I like the new, rude Tim Burke, but if I seriously becoming permanently associated with receiving cock pictures even with the paradigm blogospheric Reasonable Man I'll probably be forced to shed a single tear.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:07 PM
Maybe he meant a different Ben.
Posted by eb | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:10 PM
Have another drink, Ben.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:10 PM
That is an excellent idea, apo.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:12 PM
I'm full of 'em.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:13 PM
Wolfson, if you really don't want to be associated with the reception of cock pictures, why would you tell us that? Our obligation is now clear.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:13 PM
There's a list of the people in attendance here.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:13 PM
Tim, why must you be such a little bitch?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:16 PM
Incidentally, the first page of a Google image search for "cock" includes these three pictures, all of which are safe for work. Also, the picture from this BBC article about the man who invented the cock-on-a-stick. He looks awfully happy about it.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:20 PM
"I like the new, rude Tim Burke"
Better, but still insufficiently partisan. The key fact about Althouse is that she is a Republican or conservative. All further sins and crimes flow inevitably.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:22 PM
"Remember, no one wants a badly shaped cock!"
Indeed.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:23 PM
"There's lots of double meanings."
I can only think of one. Two, if you really stretch it.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:27 PM
Hey, Apo just wandered into this other thread and let loose with a total non-sequitur, like he was stoned or something.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:52 PM
If only. End of the summer sucks down here.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-15-06 11:55 PM
Harsh toke. I'd send you a bouquet like the one I got when I changed my pseud, but I can't figure out how to link to comments in Safari. I trust you've seen it.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:06 AM
58: I'm full of 'em.
You mean drinks, right?
Also, on Althouse: what a complete tool. If she wants to harsh on the existence of teh b00byz, what's she doing picking on Jessica rather than the blonde two to Jessica's right whose neckline ends somewhere around her belly-button? Oh, that's right, it's not about teh b00bz0rz at all, it's that some conservatives will take any chance to remind us how bitter they are that Clinton didn't resign.
Posted by Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:34 AM
Not only did I notice the boobs at once in the picture; I didn't even realise Clinton was there till I read the comments. That's prosopagnosia in action. Also, what's with the man on the extreme left shoving something vibrating into his pocket with one hand and checking the effect with the other?
Posted by Andrew Brown | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:41 AM
One person out of a group of Net-addicted shut-ins is adept at posing for a photograph. Ergo, she must be a hypocritically-anti-feminist whore, particularly because she has pictures on her site that show women about the ankle.
"Nasty old crone" is too kind. Fuck Althouse.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:29 AM
"about the ankle" s/b "above the ankle" obviously.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:30 AM
Also, I would like it if all blogging software could incorporate code such that "X nails it" would automatically be converted to "I strongly agree with X, but then I am a tool".
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 5:59 AM
A hammer, specifically.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:05 AM
73 nails it.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:06 AM
Jeez, Althouse is indefensible. The intern crack, the boob obsession, all of it.
Also, she failed to mention the biggest problem with the picture, which is the completely inelegant framing.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:11 AM
37 and 42: Stirling Newberry's picture on TPM cafe is his droopy, "I am a composer" face. In real life he has a mop of hair and shleps around in his corduroy jacket.
Posted by Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 7:31 AM
From the Althouse article, you'd expect F-cups, a come-hither expression, and a spandex tube top.
Jessica looks very nice. Althouse needs to find other things to do with her time because Jessica's only crime is wearing perfectly appropriate business casual clothing and looking young & attractive.
And dude, that is not a tight top nor are those aggressive boobs.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:28 AM
I like this take from Tracy Clark-Flores Salon. (Site pass etc. necessary.) And reading Althouse's comments, jeez, you might think that when a lot of people start chiming in "You're right, I'm not a feminist and this is exactly why I don't like feminists," she might reconsider whether she's really captured the feminist high ground.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:40 AM
#78: Aggressive boobs?
Posted by Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:44 AM
I guess they'd have to be wielding pointy swords to garner this much attention. Or cone bras.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:46 AM
I was hoping for more of a sci-fi angle, like they're alien life forms that jump up and suffocate you or something.
Posted by Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:48 AM
Not when confined by a (WHOLLY CONSERVATIVE FOR DOG's SAKE) sweater. Wool stifles the aggressive instincts of the titties.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:53 AM
I've been thinking a lot about these issues of irony (&belief &power) lately. Let me take a different example for a second, and example I was using just in an email this past Monday. Twisty Faster is fond of calling people who are into BDSM "sex dorks" and the spectacle "unattractive." I don't particularly flatter myself that anyone would want to watch me have sex no matter what kind I'm having; I'm kind of dumpy; so, frequently, are my sex partners; things get awkward or go wrong, but I'm also pretty clear that the purpose of sex is not to look pretty or create a spectacle, and I'm also pretty sure that what argues that it is begins with "P," as Twisty would say. But maybe Twisty is ironically appropriating patriarchal language. But on the other hand, it's pretty clear, as one reads her blog, that Twisty actually believes the things she's saying ironically. It's great to be asexual, saves you some tsuris I'm sure, but it's not great to shame other people for what they're doing in bed. You shouldn't do this because it gives power to the patriarchy is a legitimate argument, although one with which I would ultimately disagree even though I accept a ton of its premises, but you shouldn't do this because it's not pretty is not, unless one of your hidden premises is Patriarchy, Patriarchy sis boom bah! It's not a huge deal, in that as an asexual she's speaking from a minority position, and not a powerful one, but when I, as a feminist, see other feminists essentially using the patriarchy's tools I think, "They shouldn't do that." And actually, it's a bigger deal than I'm saying if you care about how feminists are going to carve out their own thoughts about sex as a group, and make spaces for women to talk about it, as I in fact do. Twisty Faster used to be my superego; only the blow job post freed me. So in this case, the "irony", when you actually examine it, just flattens out into one layer of meaning that doesn't interestingly critique anything. Actually, I think the main point of this entire comment is going to be self-consciousness!=irony.
Here's another example, ironically from a Twisty Faster post (a good one): This woman defends the sports corset as "edgy ironic." (And says lots of other painfully stupid things.) But where, I ask, is the irony? You're wearing a corset to work out. No amount of self-consciousness about the problems with that make what you're doing ironic, because in the end, no matter how you try to poof it out, it flattens out to the exact same thing: I am pretty, please love me. I'm not even saying women shouldn't try to look hot at the gym if they have the urge; we all make our compromises; it's not like I never dress up to say, I am pretty, please love me. But I don't flatter myself that what I am doing is ironic because I am self-conscious about it.
I actually have serious trouble with the defense of BDSM as ironic, or not real. It's delimited, yes, but I think Twisty is right that in the end, you're still bound and gagged (or whatever you're up to), and you're subverting nothing through the sexual act. I think Twisty is wrong that that's the only thing that's happening; you're also, under the best circumstances, forming an intimate bond with your partner of a sort that you maybe couldn't get to without the power exchange, and that's important too; you are maybe, through reenactment and catharsis, getting some greater understanding of your own history and emotional life, though this is a best case scenario. And people have their desires that were yes at least partly socialized, but once they have them, I think it's ultimately less patriarchal to say, yes, have what you want (so long as its consensual); don't feel ashamed. Self-consciousness is a good thing here because it prevents you getting stuck in situations you don't want to be in, and because it helps you express yourself and be more than just an object, but it does not amount to irony.
The reason I was thinking of all this this week is precisely because on this blog it's not uncommon for actual misogyny to be draped in this cloak of irony. So with the highest degree of charity, assuming the best of intentions on the part of the speaker, where, really, is the irony of any interest or depth in a young man calling an older woman who's in a dispute with a younger one a "nasty old crone"? There's self consciousness, yes, but self-consciousness is not a get out of jail free card to say any sexist thing that comes to mind, even if you think you don't really mean it. It would be more interesting to say, "I had an impulse to call AA a 'nasty old crone; it just goes to show how dichotomous are our ideas of women," or something. Good intent does not absolve you of any criticism of the sexist effects of your language and actions; I believe that was covered in Guideline 3.
And if complaining that people who are trying to examine and criticize the implications of speech are being "politically correct" is not the lowest form of intellectual vacuity, I don't know what is.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 8:56 AM
When Althouse takes the "look at the shameless, big-breasted chippie" route, "nasty old crone" is an entirely appropriate response by way of turning the same sort of rhetoric back on itself. Saying "I had an impulse etc." isn't more interesting to me (YMMV, of course); it's painstakingly belaboring a point that is already blindingly apparent.
Nobody here has mentioned Althouse's age or appearance in response to any of her other breathtakingly silly arguments that have been linked here previously because we don't care.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:35 AM
When Rabbi Gellman takes the "cosmopolitan Jews are weak and bad etc." route, it's entirely appropriate for a non-Jew to say "That kike Rabbi Gellman" by way of turning the rhetoric back on itself. It wouldn't betray any latent anti-Semitism.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:39 AM
In the end, not in the mouth of a young man who makes a big project on his blog of celebrating attractive women. Part of it comes down to your position as speaker. It's not the place of men to call women "nasty old crones," and it doesn't turn the rhetoric back on itself, it participates in it.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:41 AM
Weiner pwned by Weiner. The one true Weiner pwn.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:42 AM
I just played the anti-Semitism analogy card on two threads! You are all Hitler!
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:42 AM
Which means I should take the day off from political comments. I think I've made all my points as well as I could anyway.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:46 AM
I've made all my points as well as I could
For a Jew.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:56 AM
In the end, not in the mouth of a young man who makes a big project on his blog of celebrating attractive women.
Yeah, that's ogged's "big project", all right. It's, like, all he ever blogs about.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 9:59 AM
I said "a" not "the only."
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:01 AM
First time here, I was following the Althouse sillilness. One thing I did notice, you liberal guys and gals sure cuss a lot! You also name call a lot. I notice the folks on the right do that too, but your side wins the potty mouth award.
Also, is calling Ann an old crone that different than what she did? Isn't it still name calling?
Trey
Posted by Trey | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:08 AM
Fine. That's one of ogged's big projects, all right, &c.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:11 AM
your side wins the potty mouth award
We're also better in bed.
is calling Ann an old crone that different than what she did
That's the point, Trey.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:18 AM
Note to trolls: You must arrive with baked goods. Today I'm placing an order for a light angelfood cake, with raspberry and dark chocolate dipping sauces.
And defending Althouse calling Valenti names but getting all in a tizzy about 'crone' is pretty retarded. Doing so without bringing cake is unconscionable.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:32 AM
I'm not sure this discussion tracks, because I don't think ogged's use of "old crone" was ironic. He meant to say something nasty about Althouse, he reached into the toolkit and found "old crone," checked by his own internal heuristic whether it was hadath (thanks again to your mom, Weiner), decided it wasn't, and used it to be hurtful. His heuristic might be wrong--though I remain skeptical about formal determinations of wrongness, especially as my own heuristic says the c-word is the big unmentionable, but its use is unobjectionable to many women here--but that wrongness doesn't make his use ironic.
Similarly, I don't think Apo's justification works, because I don't think such is (thought, to the extent he wants, ogged is obviously best placed to speak to this) intended or necessary.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:35 AM
your side wins the potty mouth award
Woohoo!
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:37 AM
Potty mouth award, surely one of the best ideas ever to have almost been actually put into action.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:42 AM
The REAL problem is that people on the left have no freakin sense of humor. This is why they (you?)reapeatedly summon up so much absurdly misplaced, disproportionately furious outrage over trivial things--and it's why Air America is on its death bed, among other things.
Althouse writes these puff pieces to be entertaining. And they are entertaining (a nice break from serious legal issues)--but not nearly so entertaining as the overwrought, inane, outraged responses to her posts from the people whom she skewers and their defenders. The irony of these--indeed, the blatant hypocrisy--gets me giggling every time.
So I guess I should thank you for that.
Posted by valkyrjan | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:51 AM
87: I don't think it's cool coming out of ANY speaker's mouth (though it is marginally more distateful coming from a guy). Responding in kind is letting Althouse set the terms of the debate, rather than truly calling her on her own sexism.
Posted by Magpie | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:52 AM
people on the left have no freakin sense of humor
Clearly you ain't from around here, hoss.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:53 AM
What is Air America?
Posted by Junior Mint | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:54 AM
So, um, let me see if i understand all of this. A breast-obsessed woman (look at Feministing for all of ten seconds, and you will figure that out), poses in front of a man famous for adultry, wearing an outfit that showed off HER breasts, in a pose clearly designed to accentuate the same.
So Althouse calls her out for it, and rightfully so. And then Jessica is mad for, let me get this straight, the fact that her looks were judged. Mmm, hmm.
And then in turn you attack Althouse for all of the above, calling her a "nasty old crone."
Mmm hmm.
Sorry, but all this shows me what i have believed for a long time: the democratic party has warped true feminism.
True feminists would have told Bill Clinton to take a hike years ago.
True feminists would have been unimpressed with Hillary Clinton--and if Hillary was a true feminist, she also would have told Bill to take a hike years ago.
True feminists are people like Althouse, not this Jessica twit.
Posted by A.W. | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:55 AM
I thought the pose was designed to be a typical picture taking 3/4 turn, and that a high necked sweater was a poor way to show off one's breasts.
But I have learned! When I wish to be extra-sexy, I will don even looser fitting clothing.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:58 AM
I see Instapundit has linked the post. Look folks, if you're going to troll, you have to bring baked goods. Them's the rules.
Also probably good to start with an understanding that the author of the post doesn't consider himself a feminist.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 10:59 AM
105: Right said!
107: Please enjoy the cinnamon rolls :)
Posted by Ixman | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:13 AM
Please enjoy the cinnamon rolls
Thank you. You can stay.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:18 AM
Wow. I am so confused. Would the trolls, in addition to leaving pastries, please enumerate the acceptable poses a young woman may assume when being photographed? Thanks.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:18 AM
I think that the maxim to folllow is that one's breasts may not be visible.
So we should all moon the camera.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:21 AM
Who the fuck cares what the trolls think? Jeebus. Is it likely that any explanations any provide for their support of Althouse in this is likely to convince any of us? Pretty much not, if only because we (or at least I) will doubt both the sincerity of the argument and the worldview that motivates it.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:21 AM
http://www.7floor.net/inside.php
Hmmmm. Ask these guys.
Heh.
Posted by Ixman | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:22 AM
Tim, it's possible you've mistaken my ironic disdain in 110 for earnestness.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:23 AM
Why does the rollover on the Instapundit link still read "this link in memory of Ogged"?
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:26 AM
114
Ironic disdain?
As in: it's ironic disdain was in dis dress, counsellor.
Thank you! Tip the waitstaff!
Posted by Ixman | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:27 AM
The mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging left is frightened by an intelligent, independent woman like Althouse. The left prefers to have women fitting into their pre-conceived little molds. When confronted by an intelligent, independent woman, leftists show their true inner uglyness.
Posted by Lou Minatti | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:27 AM
117: "ugliness"
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:30 AM
Those guys probably don't actually need to use image files for all the picture numbers. It just makes the site slower to load.
Also, these are some really unhealthy-looking bones whose name I don't actually know; I guess that's around the pelvis? I suspect they aren't supposed to jut out like that. (Also nsfw, visible bqqbies. I got there by a random click, honest.)
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:30 AM
I saw the photo and, umhmm, it's a 'posed' photo, as in, Yearbooks? In fact, she is posed exactly as the man on the far right, except, he is sans breasts (apparently to avoid drawing comment).
I'm guessing Ann's photo albums are a dreary lot, what with all the women wearing baggy sweatshirts and jogging pants. (ahem)
Posted by Thomas Hazlewood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:30 AM
I sense a definite lack of baked goods coming from this bunch.
Posted by strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:30 AM
Those are just the tops of the pelvic bones. Some people's jut more than others; it depends on where you keep your body fat.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:32 AM
Why does the rollover on the Instapundit link still read "this link in memory of Ogged"?
Because no one's changed it to something else.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:32 AM
Is this Kim Catrall? And is she wearing a coat of donuts and bran muffins?
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:32 AM
In a jar in the fridge.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:34 AM
Is this Kim Catrall? And is she wearing a coat of donuts and bran muffins?
I think it's a bunch of stitched-together guinea pigs.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:35 AM
121
Sheesh.
Alright already! Here's a casserole.
I'm heading back under the bridge to bake more goods. See, I've got three Keebler elves left, and it is the weekend and all.
Posted by Ixman | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:35 AM
"The immense tiresomeness is actually undermining my will to blog this morning."
w00t! My life has meaning.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:37 AM
Let's hear it for convenience. Nice Link. Ugly words. Wondering what the masculine equivalent of "nasty old crone" would be?
Posted by mamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:37 AM
124
Actually, if you click through all of the pictures (or, uh, so I'm told...), you'll see several familiar faces. They seem to be uncredited, as far as I can tell.
Posted by Ixman | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:37 AM
From Althouse today: I don't mind an intense, verbal fight about ideas. . .
Oh, is that what she was aiming for?
Priceless.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:44 AM
129: nasty old curmudgeon/coot
Posted by yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:48 AM
131: Too bad she came unarmed.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 11:52 AM
If you look closely at the picture linked to here at unfogged its this picture:
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=243422784&size=o
But if you go to althouse's site the picture is this one:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/clintongroup2-761348.jpg
These are not the same picture with one being a blow up of the other. One easy way to spot it is to look at the man in the blue shirt on the far left. In the blowup his hands are apart, in the smaller jpg image his hands are held together. The reason I say this makes a difference is the pose of the lady in question is different in these photos. Look and see for yourselves. At the very least this arguement at this stage involves two different pictures and that should be recognized.
Posted by CloseObserver | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:07 PM
Here's how Althouse summarizes the Krissy Scalzi bar episode: A woman had lashed out with sudden, physical violence against a man who'd been trying to pick her up in a bar.
Man, she's starting to remind me of Mary McCarthy on Lillian Hellman, "Every word she says is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'."
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:08 PM
Sure, the pictures aren't the same. But do they differ in any relevant respect?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:10 PM
Jessica's pose is different in these two photos. Its not a discussion if two sides are working from different data.
In the jpg is the "posed" look. In the full blow up I was unable to see the same body posture and it looks unposed to my eyes. That's just my opinion.
This difference might go to the heart of the posed/unposed arguement I read in the comments.
Posted by CloseObserver | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:28 PM
84:I actually thought a long while on what really nasty thing I could say about Althouse that would really hurt yet not be sexist or patriarchal. Calling her a "Republican" or "conservative" was pretty filthy to me, but somehow I didn't think Althouse would be sufficiently mortified or offended.
Still working on it.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:34 PM
In the picture posted here she's facing the camera a bit more and smiling. That's about it. Everything else is basically the same and I think it's pretty risible to claim that it's this difference (which, after all, it took a "CloseObserver" to point out) at the heart of the "posed/unposed" claims.
And who cares whether or not she's posing?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:36 PM
YoYo: Nice try, but neither coot nor curmudgeon refer to the reproductive abilities (a witch who has passed meopause or who is over 50-56 years old) or looks (an ugly, evil looking old woman) of the person named. Keep looking
Posted by mamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:39 PM
Coot: An eccentric or crotchety person, especially an eccentric old man.
Works for me.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:42 PM
I had no idea that "crone" referred to reproductive abilities.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:46 PM
When I first looked at the picture my only impression was "wow, that woman in the center is very attractive." I don't think I noticed her breasts especially, any more than her pretty face, eyes, hair, etc.
I didn't even notice Clinton in the background there.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:46 PM
"Crone" has been used as recently as 1844 to refer to men, sez the OED.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:46 PM
(Not to say that if you used it that way now you wouldn't get looks; I just thought it was interesting.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:47 PM
)
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:49 PM
Thanks.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:51 PM
Althouse is a fairly young nasty crone. I imagine someone has said this already. She has many nasty crone decades ahead of her, and if science continues to advance, she may continue to be a nasty crone until the end of time.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:52 PM
People can change, John.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:55 PM
The guy on the left with the grey hair is Dave Johnson, my ex-partner at my ex-site Seeing the Forest, one of the sharpest and most underappreciated guys on the net. I learned a tremendous amount from him, and he's much more sensible and temperate than I am.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:56 PM
Amanda on Althouse
"On that note, I must have chatted with at least half a dozen other bloggers about the pics when they came out, mostly inane stuff you do when looking at pictures of people you consider friends. And not one person said anything about Jessica other than, “What’s she looking at?” In order for her to really stand out, you have to pretty much feel that young women don’t belong at such functions." ...Marcotte
It may not be true, but it is nasty & works with the "American Taliban" theme. I think we have to exaggerate the threat.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:57 PM
150 is right
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 12:58 PM
DoublePlus: Premature is the word I'd use regarding your decision on what "works for you". The word crone references reproductive inferiority as well as an unattractive, offputting, physical attributes. Eccentric and crotchety are not in the same category, but you did get the man-part right.
Posted by MamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:00 PM
Premature is the word I'd use regarding your decision on what "works for you".
That's okay, I'm probably premature due to insufficient axe-grinding.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:03 PM
Hey, come on guys. All of the women are in front, because femmes are usually (like me) short. All of the women are posing, more or less, but you only notice the young one, because she's the cutest. (You might notice Hamsher). She could have been wearing the burka and it would be about the same.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:04 PM
Jesus McQ, go to my site, I have the R*** trivia discreetly posted toward the top.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:05 PM
What do you mean, McManus, "Johnson is much more temperate and sensible than Emerson"?
I can say that, not you. You bastard.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:06 PM
Not having an axe is no excuse for ignorance
crone [ kr?n ] (plural crones) noun
Definition:
1. offensive term: an offensive term that deliberately insults a woman's age, appearance, and temperament ( insult )
2. woman over 40: a woman aged over 40
( approving; used by one woman to another )
[14th century.
Posted by MamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:13 PM
144: "Panties" was used to describe men's underwear, not women's, up until the early 20th century.
I almost had a serious use/mention problem with this comment.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:14 PM
Oh man. I read this on Althouse's yesterday and became totally sucked into watching the thing unfold. It was one of the most thoughtlessly cruel attacks I've seen on the web in a while. While I'd come to think of Althouse as a disingenuous enabler, I hadn't quite realized how vicious and unrepentant (and vain) she could be. Reading her applaud the most misgynist comments and proclaim her utter boredom with even substantive criticisms--well, it was just ugly.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:14 PM
Straying from the topic at hand, 151 is a good example of what ultimately made me stop reading Pandagon - Amanda Marcotte's proclivity for telling you what her targets are really thinking.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:15 PM
Althouse is a fairly young nasty crone
Keep in mind, however, that's measuring "young" on the Emersonian Youth Scale.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:15 PM
I almost had a serious use/mention problem with this comment.
You would also have had a number problem, in that case.
158: "crone" may refer to a woman's age, and older women may not be fertile, but that doesn't mean "crone" is about fertility.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:17 PM
161: but don't we all know someone like that?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:18 PM
Not having an axe is no excuse for ignorance
While having one is apparently sufficient excuse for thinking oneself quite clever and others ignorant.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:21 PM
161:Who is zadfrack?
Attributing the worst possible motives to your opposition is a good thing;also hyperbole and polemic. Gilliard & Marcotte & Wolcott are my role models.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:22 PM
BTW, there's a completely other discussion at Steve Gilliard about how the group was pretty much all white.
I may be complacent about all this, because after all, despite my reputation for insanity, I'm the one whose blog partner is in the picture.
But as blogging becomes big time, envy may possibly become a factor! You heard it hear first! John Emerson, futurologist!
Ann Althouse is 55. Young. More a twat than a crone.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:22 PM
163.---Actually, Wolfson, I'm pretty sure that back in the day "crone" did refer to post-menopausal women. I'm dimly recalling some commentary from my medieval lit course and don't feel like looking it up, but that's my distinct impression of the word's origins....
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:24 PM
More a twat than a crone.
All this controversy could be avoided by simply calling her a prick.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:25 PM
I'd say "sour, nasty prude."
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:27 PM
Will no one spare a moment for "vicious enabler"?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:27 PM
I say call her a Reynolds. That should suffice.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:29 PM
Back in the day, schmack in the day. What the word's origins were matter not a whit.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:30 PM
166: Mostly a lurker. I've posted here occasionally using my real first name, but someone else here shares it now. (Damn him, that's my unusual first name!)
Oh, and I don't like hyperbole and polemic either. I especially don't like it when it's coming from my own side. I expect TexCons and shmibertarians to be intellectually dishonest, but we liberals should be above that.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:33 PM
You don't hear "whit" used much these days.
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:33 PM
Double Plus: And your comment "works for me," was a flip brush off or something you felt we seriously needed to know?
Posted by MamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:34 PM
I've posted here occasionally using my real first name, but someone else here shares it now. (Damn him, that's my unusual first name!)
Let me guess: Matt?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:35 PM
And your comment "works for me," was a flip brush off or something you felt we seriously needed to know?
Ah, it confused you. Let me explain:
Works - functions very well
for - in connection with
me - me
Posted by double-plus-ungood | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:41 PM
"Oh, and I don't like hyperbole and polemic either."
Hm.... I don't know what to say.... hyperbole is quite common here, and polemic is my first middle name (right before "Invective").
Note that this is not primarily a political site, much less a feminist site.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:43 PM
174: Brock?
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:45 PM
The word crone references reproductive inferiority
Huh? "Inferiority"? Third stage of life, [Maiden-Mother-Crone] but not "reproductive inferiority."
"Crone" actually derives from the vulgar Latin for "cantankerous". A stage of life that can be quite pleasant, but for the chronic knee problems and lack of good cronic. Would I call Althouse a crone? No, she doesn't deserve that stature; I'd call her a purblind idiot. Althouse is clearly, with that "intern" comment, projecting her hatred of Clinton onto the first available female with a smile on her face.
A tempest in a C-cup. Were Jessica trying to show off her breasts, her back would be arched. It isn't. She's posed the way most people pose in a group picture ["Get closer, turn sideways, squeeze in, you back-row people - Smile!"]
But Ogged should be ashamed of himself for denigrating the wise elder women of the tribe by associating them with Althouse. No pastries for Ogged until he grovels at the feet of the crones and apologises!
Posted by DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 1:55 PM
A tempest in a C-cup.
Nice.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:07 PM
179: I know this is not a political site. I mostly come here for the cock jokes, which are sadly missing from this thread.
180: Bingo. You bastard.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:08 PM
The crazy left in action:
"I'd say "sour, nasty prude.""
"More a twat than a crone."
"All this controversy could be avoided by simply calling her a prick."
Sounds pretty hateful to me. Not very tolerant of diverse opinions.
Posted by Lou Minatti | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:08 PM
I have friends who've had croning ceremonies.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:09 PM
"Now, be it known that Ann Althouse is nasty old crone. There's no excuse for a post like this."
And calling someone who disagrees with you a "twat", "prick," "prude;" or letting it "be known she is a nasty old crone" is in what way excusable? How is such behavior any different from the crudity and inappropriate focus you are objecting to and reviling ?
Posted by mamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:13 PM
Being tolerant of diverse opinions doesn't mean being tolerant of sour old prudes' opinions, duh.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:16 PM
Lou, mamaM, have a good cry. The world has been overcome by mean, sexist, liberal bastards like me. There's no hope for innocents like yourselves.
I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Ann Althouse is a wonderful, caring person who only had Ms. Feministing's best interests at heart. what she said was in no way nasty, shallow, or catty. And if only we spoke reasonably to Ann, I'm sure that she would listen to us thoughtfully. But instead, we let down our side by being mean.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:18 PM
156: Thanks, JE, great story. I didn't realize you were a R***ite as well (incidentally, I was there in the mid-80s, so not quite so recently).
So, famous author, probably in his early 60s at this point? If I don't figure it before long, I may email you and beg for a hint.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:21 PM
That's why I published it, JM.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:30 PM
Did you know St/an Was/hbo/urn?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:31 PM
Prude: a person excessively concerned about propriety and decorum
Why is not excusable to criticize AA for excessive concern with propriety and decorum (and, I'd add, sex)? She brought up propriety and decorum in a sour, nasty way.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:31 PM
I didn't even notice Clinton in the background there.
This, definitely. The guy looks different since he's been in office; wilted, somehow. Also, I imagine I don't have a Clinton fixation and a desperate need to find something wrong with a picture of Clinton. I know! The woman in front has dark brown hair and is young!
Intern! Hussy!
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:32 PM
John: Points subtracted for resorting to sarcasm. If being thoughful, reasonable, or at the very least moderately respectful of each other no longer works in this country, what's next? What do you propose?
Posted by MamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:33 PM
I propose a thorough airing and shaming of the Republican party and a return to the rational rule of law. You?
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:36 PM
mamaM, Wait till D-Squared shows up. He uses the C-word.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:37 PM
"As for me, I'm outta here today."
Open yap, then run. Figures.
Posted by Mister Snitch! | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:39 PM
If being thoughful, reasonable, or at the very least moderately respectful of each other no longer works in this country, what's next?
What a strange defense of someone who looked at someone else's picture on the Internet, name-called, and then became upset when she was not responded to respectfully.
This could be fun. Weiner, I think you're a whore. Tia is a twat. Téo is a prick. Now, engage me! Don't call names! You must engage me!
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:41 PM
Aren't you already engaged?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:47 PM
194 reminds of this classic post.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:49 PM
Don't confuse me with the facts, you crone.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:49 PM
MamaM, I'm not trying to score points with you. Or with Althouse. And sarcasm can be a good thing. And your post was silly.
Civil discourse hasn't worked in this country since Gingrich became Speaker of the House in 1994. I can explain this in enormous detail -- Gingrich was a very nasty piece of work.
1994 is an arbitrary date, and probably late. There are a certain number of hapless fools wandering around in the middle even today, and I pity those fools, but there are a whole hell of a lot more concern trolls mincing around and trying to score points whenever our side seems to be playing by their rules (the ones they've been winning with).
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:51 PM
I can explain this in enormous detail
Seriously, he can. Don't get him started.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:52 PM
194: Points subtracted for resorting to sarcasm.
You're going to have a rough time around these parts.
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:55 PM
Open yap, then run. Figures.
Ooh, the "you aren't reading my criticisms simultaneous with my posting of them" attack. It's a classic.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 2:58 PM
Can't we just get back to fighting amonst ourselves?
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:02 PM
And spelling correctly.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:03 PM
We can do all three. We ae many-talented and multi-faceted.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:04 PM
And hott.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:06 PM
In fact, the rule is that no one has an obligation to read/respond to your criticisms at all unless you bring pastry.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:07 PM
But not in a way that involves having noticeable female secondary sex characteristics or posing for pictures. Because that would be tawdry.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:09 PM
As a crone, I reject the knee-jerk association of Anne Althouse with myself and my cohort.
We would do better to focus on chimpeaching the chimperor.
Posted by OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:13 PM
But not in a way that involves having noticeable female secondary sex characteristics or posing for pictures. Because that would be tawdry.
All you guys be sure to wear the supportive bras now, y'hear?
Thank God she wasn't wearing a sleeveless top. There could have been... shoulders. And, I hear Monica Lewinsky has shoulders. And so does Clinton.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:15 PM
back to the beginning -- this really was disgusting, because Jessica is obviously not a sexpot or a tease or a fashion queen or a trophy-bride-to-be. She's just attractive and pleasant-looking in quite an unassuming way.
Althouse is on the list of less-crazy less-nasty Republicans, as Reynolds and his trophy bride used to be. (Yes, she does look like one, and a counseling psych PhD doens't make her a heavy hitter.) So really, as I've been saying, there's no there there anymore. We smash them, or they smash us.
And these people still believe "Clinton was disgraced forever -- and why doesn't everyone just admit it?"
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:17 PM
Emerson, was Dr. Helen ("trophy bride" phweet! 10-yard penalty for Tiarule violation) ever on the list? Her archives go back only to Sept. 2005 and are batshit crazy from the beginning. See this gem from the second week.
In general, though, I agree with your point.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:24 PM
Who gave Weiner a whistle?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:35 PM
183: Oops, sorry man. If it makes you feel better, I never noticed you posting under that name until after I began posting with this name. Not saying you didn't, just that I never noticed it. (And ironically at the time I almost chastised you for trying to steal my name.)
If Brock is your authentic, honest-to-God real-life name, I feel a little bad for stealing it, since -- here's a confession -- it's not actually my real name. If you really want it back I'm willing to relinquish and change my handle. I could start posting as "Cock Landers", I suppose.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:36 PM
Are hapless, silly, naive, prudish, mincing trolls supposed to bring pastry too? The rules around here are sort of confusing.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:37 PM
Way upthread: So, I'm pretty sure Madison is not noted for its conservative dress styles, when it's not freezing....
Uh, no. No, it's not.
In fact, even when it is freezing the dress styles aren't always conservative. One of my favorite games to play when the temperature drops below freezing is to head outside in nice warm winter clothing and watch all the little freshman girls in miniskirts and tube tops shuddering outside the trendoid bars. Nothing prurient, I just like laughing at stupidity every now and then.
Posted by Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:43 PM
Bringing pastry can only help.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:44 PM
Wherein lies the confusion? All trolls, without exception, are required to bring pastry.
Posted by mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:44 PM
Wow, spend a day with the kids and miss all the fun on the internet.
For my introduction to this thread, I'm going to admit to something stupid. I opened the photo before reading anything else, looked at it a long while thinking about what the controversy might be *and never noticed Bill Clinton*.
I saw Jessica right away, saw that she stood out (ok, I noticed she was hot) and figured the debate would be like our previous debates over remarks made about Jessica Biel's apperance. I compared Jessica from Feministing to the other schlubs in the photo, but never noticed that one of the other schlubs used to be President.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 3:56 PM
"Nothing prurient"....
And why not? You may not really belong ATM.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:00 PM
216: *sob* I thought you would remember! It was the greatest night of my life!
I follow up 215: Dr. Helen began to post the week ogged finally gave up on Insty.
218: Mince pies, of course.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:01 PM
MamaM is giving being reasonable a bad name.
Posted by Timothy Burke | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:03 PM
218: Yes, it is my honest-to-God real life name, but I'm enjoying my pseudonymity, so feel free to keep your pseudonym.
Believe it or not, I only just now realized that it's a Boogie Nights reference.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:06 PM
70 0wned
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:07 PM
I'm surprised that so many people didn't notice Clinton when they first saw the picture. I noticed him first (then Jessica).
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:09 PM
Rob, you misspelled "pwned."
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:09 PM
Re: pastry and aforementioned trolls
Are they invited to stay and partake with you or consigned to the floor to be tossed a few scraps? Or is there a seperate drinking fountain reserved for nasty crones and sillies?
Posted by mamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:11 PM
Oops, Separate drinking fountains for trolls who can't spell might be a good place to start, then you could move on to refuse service those you deem unreasonable, no matter what flavor of pastry they bring.
Posted by MamaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:17 PM
84: self-consciousness!=irony.
I agree. I like the whole comment in fact. It says a lot about irony and Twisty, which are both more interesting topics than Althouse.
Posted by rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:19 PM
231: Then we could put them in camps! Come on, you know you want to say it.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:23 PM
233: Yes, but nice summer camps where they could have fun while learning the sarcastic values common to all decent folk.
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:26 PM
Wow, some commentors sure are adept at missing the point.
The picture, the way she is dressed, her boobs... none of these things is the point.
The point is, the woman front and center in the picture is a self-described feminist who is cheerfully dining with a probable rapist, definite groper, and one who admitted to sexually harassing his employee.
Why is it that Bill Clinton isn't a pariah among feminists? Is it just because he appointed Ruth Ginsberg, so you can continue to have abortions on a whim? Does that give him a pass for groping women (apparently to Gloria Steinem it does), sexually harassing (Monica Lewinsky) them, and raping (Juanita Broaddrick) them?
Posted by Ed Minchau | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:36 PM
"Insty just linked to this, because "nasty old crone" is convenient for him."
Actually, hypocrisy is why a lot of us left the left. It was not convenient, it was a symptom of dishonesty and moral (even logical) decay. I am not referring to the author of this blog, she just took a cheap shot and got caught. I missed the point of Ann's original post because I think the breast comments got in the way. (Really, I did not MEAN it to come out that way.)
But I would not get my picture taken with George Wallace or David Dukes because they are (or were in Wallace's case) racist morons. Same goes for Pat Buchanen whom I consider to be a mean spirited twit. It DOES look hypocritical for a person who self-labels as a feminist to have their picture take with a man who has been haunted by sexual misconduct in just the same way. For me, that is the point, not how someone looks or how they posed. I voted for Clinton, once. Then I thought better of it.
Trey (looking for a really good potty mouth award)
Posted by Trey | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:36 PM
Is there any bit of troll-speak more tiresome than "I used to be a Democrat until ..."?
Oh, and you forgot to bring pastry, Trey.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:43 PM
she just took a cheap shot
They only took out part of Ogged's kidney; they didn't change his sex.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:44 PM
I'm sorry, but is someone manufacturing pretend outrage over being asked to bring along pretend pastry to the pretend Internet gathering she's trolling?
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:46 PM
the author of this blog, she
Trey, I invite you to peruse the archives.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:46 PM
Minchau, Trey, most of us figured out what we thought about Clinton about 8 years ago, and most of us have gone on to other things. You haven't. Get a life, go to a steps group, suck on a pistol, I don't care. Life is hard for you, I know, but we have other people to care about. Lleave us alone.
Most of us have more or less mixed feelings about Clinton, but the stuff you're spouting is bullshit.
Trey, are you waiting for someone to beg you to return to the left? I'll be right over and beg. Just stay where you are. I love you, man!
Posted by John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:46 PM
235: You forgot the part about how he had Vince Foster murdered.
And you forgot the pastry.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 4:52 PM
223: Because hypothermia's not sexy?
Posted by Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 5:27 PM
223: Because hypothermia's not sexy?
Not in its preliminary stages, no, which is why you've got to encourage people until frostbite, which is sexy, sets in.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 5:44 PM
239: She may be pretending to find the "bring pastry" line sexist, not realizing that (a) it's a preexisting gender-neutral tradition (b) since she started posting as "mamaM," most of us probably assumed she was someone named "Mamam" going pseudonymous.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 5:53 PM
Could also be someone named M. who's a mama.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 5:59 PM
Really?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:01 PM
No, just kidding.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:03 PM
I think I'm more or less in the tank for Beyerstein. I suspect she and I would disagree about various parts of this whole kerfuffle, but I like this bit of hers:
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:26 PM
Scott Lemieux is good on this also.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:39 PM
You would cite a man, Apo.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:54 PM
Yeah, "cite".
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-06 6:56 PM
Has anyone every noticed that people who use "Dr [first name]" tend to be a bit whacked? Dr Laura, Dr Phil, Dr Bob, Dr Helen? And even Dr Ruth [does she really think grocery clerks think dirty thoughts when people buy cucumbers??]
Posted by DominEditrix |