They're probably just afraid that Orton will pass out on a couch and get tea-bagged.
I'd link to the pictures of that happening to whatshisname, but I can't remember who it happened to (although I do know it was college football, not the NFL). I'm pretty sure it was first brought to my attention by apostropher. A little help, apo?
You know what's great about that thread? On comment 88, M/tch asks what's the most comments ever on an Unfogged thread, and on comment 93, Ogged says he's pretty sure the thread has set the record.
Depends on the kind of woman you want to meet. I strongly recommend women with their own washer and dryer. Particularly if you haven't a washer and dryer of your own.
Laundry capability is no dealbreaker, of course, but fringe benefits matter. In your specific case, I'd also recommend a woman who owns music. And maybe a chicken.
In seriousness, it seems like a reasonable place to talk to someone you're interested in. After all, you're both obviously waiting around with little to do. And, I presume (without evidence) that the likelihood of the other person being single is increased. So if I were interested in a person in a laundromat, I'd be more likely to talk to him or her, as compared with some other place where one has to wait (e.g., auto shop).
20: That's basically what I'm thinking. Unfortunately, the laundromat I currently use is close enough to my apartment that I just go home while my clothes are in the machines, so there's less waiting around involved. Still seems like a good venue generally.
I dunno. I'd probably want a clear signal or in before I tried to talk to someone in a laundromat. Sure, when people are occupied by a rote task, that makes for a captive audience, but it's still a chorse, and one for which people dress intentionally in their worst. If a girl approached me in a laundromat, I'd probably be thinking gaaah I'm wearing the L.A. Raiders shirt with the holes in it.
Of course, this strategy seems to have a flaw. At present, I'm doing laundry because I'm down to no underwear, so I'm wearing pajama pants, shoes with no socks, and a dress shirt. I suppose I could be endearing this way, but it seems like I'm at least at a disadvantage given my current disheveled appearance. You may be a more responsible launderer, however.
In my epxerience, the laundromats near apartments with lots of college aged women (which I'm assuming is the case here) can be fruitful. Stay and hang out with a book. The results can't be any worse than going home.
About the laundromat thing, I'd only say that talking with someone there is fine, but keep it dialed down a fair bit. It's not a social place like a bar, and as people aren't really there "voluntarily", they have a reasonable expectation of solitude/privacy. Anything beyond brief small talk would need a reasonably clear indication from the other person that it wouldn't be bothersome.
Teo - Stay focused. Go to the laudromat to do your laundry; that's what laundromats are for. But feel at liberty to do it in a very time-consuming manner. If you see someone with whom you'd like to talk, wait to do so until you see her for the third time.
BOBBY: This is your big secret? You just ask every woman you see until one of them finally says yes?
BOOMHAUER: Man, sh! Don't dang ol' tell my secret, man!
And you don't have to wait the three weeks you might normally, until what you're wearing is embarassing. Keep an eye on it, and go more often. There's no loss at all if you do multiple loads of the same category now, or if the loads are overfull. Even if the loads will be light, think of the small extra expense as equivalent to a cover charge. There is no harm in studying the hours and frequency of the place.
Naturally, as soon as he gets his libido in check, he goes to the laundromat and meets the Girl. Her name is Erica... and picking up someone while doing her dirty clothes is her thing. That must be why she brings her laundry but no detergent, no fabric softener and no change.
I wouldn't think of it as a place to meet women. Not that you couldn't, but I think I'd feel a little bit weird if someone were showing too much interest in me in a laundromat, if only because if I think he's a creep, I still have to wait around to get my laundry.
It's late at night and the laundromat is deserted except for Teo and Erica. (Well and of course the camaraman but let's accept for the moment the most basic suspension of disbelief required by cinema.)
E (stage-whispering to herself after a quick glance at Teo's sculpted musculature under his too-tight dress shirt) Oh rats! Forgot to bring my quarters! (Flutters her long eyelashes in Teo's direction -- we see him responding, and the camera pans back to her) Say, looks like you've got a couple of rolls of quarters in your pocket, could I borrow a couple?...
Hey, I have been hit on at a laundromat before. On multiple occasions. Didn't take, but don't let that stop you, 'cause they weren't, like, ravishingly handsome or however it is that you describe yourself.
I'd feel a little bit weird if someone were showing too much interest in me...
This is a universal, venue-independent problem. Trouble is, by the time you're moved to adopt some strategy, chances are you'll be showing to much interest in everybody
68 gets it right. In a coffee shop or a bar or somewhere social, if I think you're a creep, I can leave, or move to another area of the bar, or have the bouncer toss you out, or something. Here I have to wait 42 minutes for the dryer cycle to finish. Oh, and since you're doing your laundry, you can't leave, either.
So, you *could* pick up someone at the laundromat. Who knows? But it wouldn't be the place I'd think, ooh, great place to meet women. Apparently, the article ac linked thinks otherwise, but the author of the article sounds like a sleeze.
Hey guys, a Holocaust denier just posted a comment on an old Prussian Blue thread at 'Postropher's place, which reminds me to ask if anybody has seen Joe D.'s play yet? It opened Monday. I have my tickets to the show this afternoon.
Hey, you know what's unsatisfactory? Besides Holocaust denial? My alarm clock just went off even though it wasn't turned on. I do not think this should be encouraged.
How can I not have linked this yet? The point is this link.
So yeah, listen to the CwOs. I say hang around with the book, maybe whichever one Ethan Hawke is reading in Before Sunrise, and see if someone meets you. Maybe you can try making eye babies in a pleasant way.
"You Will Be Amazed By How Easy You Can Pickup Hot Women - Anywhere And Everywhere You Go - With Ease and Finesse Using Simple Words!"
"Even If You Are Low-Paid, Ugly or Overweight!"
"YOU Could Be Making Time, Making Out, and Making Love... With The Most Gorgeous Little Piece Of “Action” Who Thinks You’re The Greatest Thing Since The Wonder Bra!"
"No More Stuck Up, Smart Ass Comments From Chicks That Don’t Even Rate a 6 ½...... And That’s On A Scale Of 100..."
I'd like to believe that 'Rachel Davis' isn't a female author at all.
#73 makes an important point - we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
68, 73. I know. It's obvious once it isn't you. But I can't help but remember my own lonliness and desperation. I was a commuter in college, when proximity and familiarity were the basis of social life. It's a very hard nut to crack, and the misery of isolation, even when originally self-imposed, is unforgetable.
90: Yes, for sure. While most of last night's boys' chatter was about making cock jokes, I think this point was definitely overlooked (but, whoa! the cock jokes!).
You could perhaps meet someone at a laundromat, especially if you ran into that person on multiple occasions. But for the most part, this probably happens only in Doritos commercials.
Let me put in an opposing voice on the 'picking people up in public places' thing. Yeah, don't be sleazy, and let someone alone if she brushes you off. But if you, personally, aren't being a sleazy overattentive creep, there's nothing wrong with being friendly.
Think of it as a two step process: if you start out by being outgoingly friendly, but not doing anything that looks like a romantic approach, there's nothing wrong with that, and someone who doesn't want to be chatted up will not be friendly in return and you know to leave them alone. If you find someone who doesn't mind friendly chatter, there's nothing wrong with asking if they want to have coffee or some food or something.
we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
This isn't, exactly, false, but can be overstated. Someone who's being creepily pushy or threatening comes off quite differently than someone who is being friendly -- genuinely friendly, while it might be annoying if you want to be left alone, isn't particularly frightening.
Matt finds his dates in only the classiest of establishments, but there are indeed singles bars.
At least twice people have tried to pick me up in a laundromat. One time the guy definitely gave off the vibe of someone who wanted to chop me up and store me in his basement.
I should point out that I do agree with 95 & froz gobo's advice. See someone there often enough, being friendly is fine. It's just not the sort of place I'd suggest to meet women, or to go 'looking.' And I do think that I'd probably be less receptive to someone being friendly at a laundromat than I would be at a coffee shop.
89: Ah. No, I think I was just mixing up "My Tennessee Mountain Home" and "My Old Kentucky Home." No songs about people thinking about their old Pennsylvania home.
But if you, personally, aren't being a sleazy overattentive creep, there's nothing wrong with being friendly.
The "picking women up in laundromats" phase of my life is way behind me, but I suspect some men would appreciate some more concrete guidelines for not making women feel uncomfortable. I know I would have, back in the day.
"Creepy" is a very subjective term. And even if it weren't, it's a term like "bad driver" that one is naturally resistant to applying to oneself.
#73 makes an important point - we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
These attempts are doomed. There is no formal rule about where to approach a woman, though there are clearly better and worse places. The critical issue is, as Ned indicates, are you likely to freak the woman out? So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
I should mention: I kind of assumed teo had some specific person in mind but was unsure if trying to get to know her was okay. I have no basis for this assumption. teo? Wake up already. The internets are talking about you again.
103: I suspect some men would appreciate some more concrete guidelines for not making women feel uncomfortable.
Well, SCMT hits one:
So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
If you're specificially worried that she might be afraid of you, leave her alone. The only other advice I've got is don't be persistent. Someone who doesn't mind being approached will be smiling and being friendly in return if you say something. If you haven't got an actively friendly response in two sentences or so, back off.
These attempts are doomed. There is no formal rule about where to approach a woman, though there are clearly better and worse places. The critical issue is, as Ned indicates, are you likely to freak the woman out?
You and Ned must have the serial killer eyes or something. All he has to do, as LB suggested, is try a little casual conversation. If the friendliness isn't reciprocated, then he goes back to his book.
It's a hard term to define, 'creep'. It's not anything you say, it's more a vibe that you send off that you are more interested in t3h s3xx0r than the woman as a person.
Teo - stay in the the laudromat, be friendly and talk to friendly people. You know you aren't creepy, so your whole body language will convey that and other people will realize you aren't creepy. My fear on being approached by a pretty young college student isn't that he will store me in his basement, it is that he will chat my ear off if I make eye contact twice. As long as you notice signs that she doesn't want extended conversation then you are in the clear.
Your new laundromat policy (be out in public, be pleasant, talk to people) should extend to the rest of your time, too. You're in college and it will never be easier to meet people. Don't sit home reading all the time.
The difficulty is what to advice the young man who has got himself into a position where his desperate loneliness is fully borne in on him. And this can happen very easily, particularly to the shy and the scrupulous. When you get off work at some stupid hour, and realize you don't know anybody, there is nothing to be done for it, but it's impossible not to go out looking anyway, even though you know it will only make things worse.
Gazing too long is the biggest component and can be very uncomfortable at any distance.
In conversation:
Inappropriately personal, especially about 'how women are'. Standing too close. Persisting in the conversation after the other person has indicated s/he doesn't want to talk.
Look, if you guys are worried, you are also certainly self-aware enough that you don't do these things. Almost everyone doesn't. The occasional creepy person does, but since you know you aren't creepy (because inside, you do not believe the age of consent should be lowered to twelve so that you can find your mate before she is exposed to other men's sperm) then trust that your demeanor is reflecting your beliefs.
Don't listen to this nonsense, teo: real women are impressed by wealth and confidence. Walk right over to her, pull out a brand new roll of quarters -- place it conspicuously on the machine so she sees that it's a full roll -- and insist on paying for her laundry. Tell her it's the least you could do to repay her for the chance to admire her beauty for 45 minutes. Then -- and this is the most important part -- at some point when you notice her eyeing your roll of quarters, casually mention that you have dozens of those things back at your apartment. (Don't say 'hundreds', even if it's true. You want to impress her without attracting gold diggers.) If she's still eyeing you (and how could she not be?) you're ready to close the deal: "Maybe when our clothes are clean we can go back to my place and get things dirty again."
As I mentioned, I've been out of the dating scene for a rather long time, but I had the impression that Internet Dating had pretty much rendered singles bars, laundromats, etc., pretty much obsolete.
Brief smiley eye contact and not being an obvious freak...
I used to get chatting to girls, in a not-trying-to-hookup-way pretty often. I suppose it depends on the area. My local laundrette in Glasgow was mostly used by students who were the same age as me, so it was pretty friendly.
Yeah, but it comes with practice. People who are confident around other people and especially people of [the sex to which they are attracted] are presumably not born that way. They get that way.
It obviously isn't easy, but is it possible? And is it worth it to end the desperate lonliness and to have plans when you get off work, so you don't have to walk the streets at night, humming the Smiths to yourself, looking into the lit windows brimming with the warmth and companionship that will forever be denied to you?
The difficulty is what to advice the young man who has got himself into a position where his desperate loneliness is fully borne in on him. And this can happen very easily, particularly to the shy and the scrupulous.
Right. This is the crux of the matter. Don't go looking for potential dates; go looking for potential friends. (What you want is a continuous stream of potential dates flowing past you as a result of your female friends.) And you may occasionally come off as a creep. Nothing to be done about that: it's part of the learning process. You aren't going to kill or substantially harm the woman you approach with any inadvertant creepiness. And, over time, you'll develop a sense of how to approach people at various times and places.
There is a case to be made that self consciousness does not preclude teh creepy. I saw a funny, and ultimately creepy, short film about a guy's internal narrative as he followed a woman around wondering if she thought he was a stalker, and then stalking her in the attempt to prove he wasn't.
Not that this applies to teo, who I've previously said is hot + charming.
128: Yes indeed, and in fact the friendship and conversation of older women, professors, tutors, friends, was very helpful, to me. If you are such a person, the amount of good you can do a young man, at least the kind I was, is hard to overestimate. The first thing he needs is the sense that somebody female thinks he's worth talking to, that his thoughts and opinions are worth hearing, that he's a normal human being and not somebody to look away from and shun. The self-protectiveness of the young woman is understandable and natural; the older woman should be a little more secure.
Troll alert! Hate to go off topic...just ignore,won't be long.
Last night I had a dream, I swear is true, on me mother's grave, I dreamed of photographs and flickr sets of photographs:photographs of pretty women in clear polyvinyl jackets on the streets of Paris in the rain. And all the photos, every one, was captioned:"Guy Debord." I swear.
I must read more about the Spectacle. I am summoned. That is all.
It would be pretty funny (in some ways, though perhaps not in others) if it turned out that Teo is something of a sociopath, and here we've been, giving him our best advice.
There are quite a few singles 'clubs' in the UK but I gather they cater for an older divorced crowd, mostly. I have an older divorced male relative, ahem, who used to go to one.
132: Well, yes. Not to add any unnecessary older-woman sleaziness to the conversation, but a sad commentary on human nature is that someone who looks like Teo probably has a little more room to make friendly advances without coming off as sleazy, just because he's awfully cute in that 'Jack Armstrong, All-American Boy' sort of way. Ugly isn't insurmountable, but does add another layer of difficulty.
It would be pretty funny (in some ways, though perhaps not in others) if it turned out that Teo is something of a sociopath, and here we've been, giving him our best advice.
I think you're vastly overrating the value of our advice.
Serious advice to Teo: sign up for dance classes. I spent the weekend at a jazz festival with an old boy who does tango and jive. Somebody was teasing him about all the women he had running around after him and I thought they were just having a laugh. But twice in as many days some woman walked smack up to him out of nowhere and started chatting. Both of them he knew from swinging them around a dance floor.
As a general matter, talking to strangers is a good way to start trying to meet women. I know that sounds absurdly vague, but I think it's sound advice for shy people: if you want to get more comfortable talking people you don't know yet, it might be easier to start with the more general category of "people" rather than the specific category of "sexually desirable women." (And no, internet people don't count.) So, SCMT and Megan's takes on this thread seem good: get out there, talk to whomever, see what happens.
This is a great way to meet new women, although I think generally one needs already to have a partner in order to partake. It's like one of those "and the rich get richer..." sort of things.
Brock, maybe that's the case in the US, but over here there's about a 4:1 ratio of women wanting to learn to dance, so they're not that fussy. As long as you have two feet* and don't smell, you're in.
*In smaller population centres this may be optional.
146 is right, and a bunch of us have already given Teo the same advice. Even under circumstances where you need to bring a partner, he's got female friends who might be willing to help out.
Of course there are at least 4 women for every guy that wants to take dance lessons. But Teo doesn't want to dance, Teo wants to "dance". And there aren't all that many women who think that "dancing" is a good way to meet new people. The 4:1 ratio is probably reversed, in fact.
I agree with the spirit of this advice, but I actually think a lot of the verification I referred to above could have come from internet people such as we. In a sense, I still need it, who doesn't? and do really think that a site like this would have been very useful back in the day.
I've been talking about turtles a lot recently, but really, I'm not obsessed with turtles, or even particularly taken with them. But who doesn't like the occasional turtle? It's ridiculous that I have to defend myself like this. My interest is totally casual! I'm not stalking you baby turtles I AM NOT STALKING YOU
I was thinking that was an embarrassing thing to know. I like nitwitted sitcoms. I haven't watched them much in the last five years or more, but I like them. Give me a choice (on TV) between a hard-hitting police procedural and a half-hour of stupid jokes, I'll go for the stupid jokes every time.
So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
Now he pipes up with the good advice. This is almost exactly what I had to say to the woman at Whole Foods that I asked out. I probably should have considered the "if she says "no," it's going to be really awkward to shop here" thing beforehand. It might just be paranoia, but a lot of the people at that Whole Foods look at me funny now, but I need my groceries, so to hell with them!
Besides 60 Sunset Strip, does anyone have opinions on new shows that might be worth watching? I need something to supplement Weeds, which I'm rapidly losing faith in anyway.
To hell with them is a good attitude (really) but strangers aren't looking at you in Whole Foods. Strangers do not look at you and evaluate you because strangers do not care. Shy people, this is especially for you - strangers are NOT judging you. Strangers are thinking about their dry cleaning and whether they should get blueberries. If they walk past you without smiling, it is not because they think you are pathetic, it is because they are self-absorbed. Their abstraction is NOT about you, and you will have to talk to them to break through it.
For a slightly different perspective, a girl once told me (through an intermediary, no less) that I was paying entirely too much attention to her, it was creepy, and that I should stop. This confused me, in addition to kind of freaking me out, since I really didn't interact with her in a manner any different than with my other female friends. All was later made clear when I found out that she wasn't actually creeped out, but rather had a crush on me that she found inconvenient (given the existence of her boyfriend). This was her way of distancing herself from me, I suppose.
Not that assuming something of this sort is a good way to go about things. You likely won't go wrong by striving to avoid cries of "creep!" and "stalker!"
I very rarely judge strangers who I'm not eavesdropping on. Except for those reading The Da Vinci Code on the subway, who I've judged and found wanting. Also people reading certain other popular novels, mostly ones that I've also read but aren't indicative of my actual taste, while I assume that they are indicative for other people.
186: One of the most depressing studies I ever saw was something in which (as I rememer it -- I may be inflating it for more depressingness) a number of depressed and of non-depressed people were asked to spend some time with a group of other people, and then write down what the other people thought of them. The non-depressed people said uniformly that each of the other people either liked or was paying no attention to them. The depressed people said things like "X thought I was annoying, Y thought I was stupid, Z thought I was funny looking." The non-depressed people were consistently over-estimating how well others thought of them; the depressed people were remarkably accurate.
Teo, you can practice flirting at the laundromat, yes. Don't bother to aim for anything more, since "practicing flirting" is a useful end in itself, and also b/c that way you neither have unrealistic expectations nor much probability of coming on too strong. Bring a book, but for god's sake don't just sit and read, which makes it impossible to actually, you know, meet people's eyes or talk to them? The "bring a book to the laundromat" advice isn't in and of itself going to accomplish anything but clean laundry and some reading: both useful, but not exactly what you're hoping to get done, yes?
So I say, bring a boring book, or some school stuff, or else an interesting book like some good recent fiction. Then you have a silent invitation to conversation, i.e., "you're a student?" or "oh, I liked that book."
But you can't just depend on people to talk to you. Your role, as the guy, is to look up occasionally and sort of idly gaze around as if thinking, rather than scoping the chicks. Then you catch someone's eye and just smile nicely. That's it. This means "friendly, cute, not pushy." Then you putz with your homework or book some more, gaze around a little bit, see if you catch her eye again, see if she smiles, say "hi." Then she says "hi." Then, if you like, you can make a joke like, "so, come here often?" but of course you have to say it as a joke. If she laughs, you're good. If she gets tense, you say "I'm sorry, that was a lame joke, never mind me" and go back to your book and leave her alone.
If she's the bold type and says hi or asks *you* a question ("whatcha reading?"), then you have been given permission to make friendly conversation.
If you meet the same person there more than once and have established friendly laundromat relations (i.e., she smiles and talks to you rather than ignoring you), or if she seems especially friendly or you're getting along or if she gives you an opening like "god I'm starving" then you are permitted to say something like "I'm going to go grab a bite while this stuff dries, want to come with?"
Just to chime in support: you need to get comfortable meeting people as people before you can get comfortable meeting women as potential dates. Téo's cute enough that he probably would have to work sending off a creepy vibe, but still, it's easier to feel relaxed about the guy you see chatting kindly to everyone than the guy who only zeroes in on women above a certain hottness quotient.
Dance lessons are good, unless you really hate dancing, by which I mean hate, not dislike because of inexperience and shyness. Dance is especially good because then when you go to parties or dances in a group you can be the hero that dances with the women. But if you're not into dance, pretty much anything that gets you out of the house and interacting with people will work: gym classes, volunteer organizations, choir, orchestra, board games, synagogue/church events.
LB,
exactly. people don't like you, but they'd rather you pretend that you thought they liked you, so just act as if they like you, and forget about it.
The non-depressed people were consistently over-estimating how well others thought of them; the depressed people were remarkably accurate.
Sure, a big part of not being depressed is not caring so much about what's true. But what the study doesn't get at is how to change impressions and interactions over time. The happy people have a much better chance of improving others' opinion of them, if only because they're more likely to try.
So I say, bring a boring book, or some school stuff, or else an interesting book like some good recent fiction. Then you have a silent invitation to conversation, i.e., "you're a student?" or "oh, I liked that book."
Actually, teo should bring along a phonology book, and pretend to have trouble voicing some of the sounds, and ask people to help him. Not that that gives an obvious entry to further topics. But everyone likes phonology!
There's a guy who hangs out in one of my university's adjacent cafés with a stenography machine. The first time I noticed him, he'd been surrepticiously transcribing a trivial conversation I'd been having with some random person, and so of course I asked him about what he was up to. "Just practicing," he said and went on to offer his services as a stenographer if I needed one, etc. It became hideously obvious that this was his (ill-judged, creepy) method of trying to pick up girls and odd jobs. Whenever I see him, I pretend like I've never spoken to him before.
I will now throw my hat into the advice ring: Teofilo, find someone doing analogous to the stenographer mentioned above (or in some other way poorly hitting on women), wait for him to fail at hitting on someone, and then, out of his ear shot (for one wouldn't want to be rude) ask the person he was hitting on, "Wait, that guy really wasn't trying what it looked he was, was he?" (possibly phrase it better than that). This will be a fine way to start a conversation. My other piece of advice is taken from Dershowitz's Letters to a Young Lawyer, which is that when people give advice they're just telling you how you can be like them, and there's no ex ante reason to think that you do in fact want that.
I'm not one to advise people on How 2 Scor Chix 4 the Shy College Guy, but I think 111, 131 and the general "talk to people" advice is good in general. If you're worried about not having enough of a social network, this can be nice even if you don't get dates out of it. (Though this may not be an issue for you.) I did make myself more extroverted after college, and making friendly relevant remarks to people around you helped (this can also be done to strangers at parties). (Also, being willing to call people up and ask them what was happening that night/soon, but that's another story.) Most people won't be too creeped, if you don't push the conversation after they respond noncomittally.
Of course once I did accidentally pick up a guy at the bus stop.
I remember the lift I would get from a pleasant conversation, yes, in laundromats and places like that. But I never was able to turn that into something more.
It wasn't until I started working a job with lots of other young people like myself, and our work hours made us into natural social companions, that I was in a position to be introduced to people, or fixed-up, or just saw enough of people to be friends.
I think for young people like I was, without a natural circle of friends from residence halls, work or some long-hour shared activity is an experience that can change their lives.
Glad to see that the CwOs have chimed in with some very good advice.
I'm actually pretty well set as far as having a social network goes, so even though IDP's comments are achingly recognizable, I'm no longer really in that position.
Here's the backstory on the laundromat:
I went over there last night to do my laundry, and when I came back to put my clothes in the dryer a young woman walked in, apparently realized she hadn't brought any money, and asked me to watch her stuff while she ran home to get some. I agreed, of course, and hung around for a couple minutes reading the paper rather than going home as I usually do. When she came back she thanked me, and seemed a little embarrassed when I put down the paper and turned to leave, as she hadn't realized I was only staying there to watch her stuff. She was apologetic, but I said it was really no big deal and went home.
I came back half an hour later to pick up my clothes, and while I was folding them her wash cycle ended and she gathered up her clothes to put them in the dryer. As she was doing that I started thinking about this issue, and whether it would be a good idea to start up a conversation with someone in that context. I wasn't about to actually do it at the time; I don't think she would have been too receptive. I just started to think about the pros and cons, which have been amply pointed out in this thread.
Next time I may just sit there and read instead of going home and see what happens.
YES, you can start up a conversation with her once she's finished putting her clothes in the dryer. Or next time you see her at the laundromat. You can definitely say 'hi' without being creepola. Jeez.
232: you think too much. that's not something to be turned off, so what you should do is, when fate puts you in contact with someone with whom you'd like a chat, say something completely random. Then find a clever way out of it. This puts your mind to use, rather than running through scenarios until the opportunity passes.
As Weiner says, duh. She approached you, so she's clearly not scared of you generally -- attempted chatting is completely inoffensive. (Also, evidence (inconclusive, but certainly suggestive) for 163).
237 is the appropriate 69% right. It's definitely a good party trick. Or you know, if you can think of something to say, say it (not "Those are good and articulate points," you know what I mean).
Is this a good idea?
Well, there's a chance that she'll turn out to be The Bridesmaid, but it's pretty damn unlikely. Plausible downside: small! Possible upside: large! In addition, the benefit of getting practice talking to women. Do the math.
You know, 243 is actually true. Is it a good idea to talk to people at laundromats? Sure, why not. Why did you want to talk to *this particular* person, though? Did she seem kinda cute and attractive, or was it just "you appear to be a woman; must make a try"? Because therein lies the difference between cute and creepy.
The mistake was probably in just being a little too flat about folding the paper and going home. Perfectly harmless thing to do; but potentially awkward. Next time, smile and say "sure, glad to help." Neutrality often signals disapproval, especially for a certain type of woman/girl, since we're taught to be actively "nice" all the damn time. Anything less implies something's wrong. Especially if you're already feeling self conscious, which surely she was.
Since when is beer-drinking against "all the moral values for which the NFL stands?"
Posted by Magpie | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 7:39 PM
Hey, at least the letter was specific.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 7:42 PM
They probably get a lot of requests like this. Or will now.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 7:45 PM
1: Given that every fourth commercial during a pro football game is a beer commercial, that's an excellent question.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 7:50 PM
1,4: Drinking a ton of beer at non-NFL venues is against every moral value for which the NFL stands.
Posted by TJ | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 8:19 PM
They're probably just afraid that Orton will pass out on a couch and get tea-bagged.
I'd link to the pictures of that happening to whatshisname, but I can't remember who it happened to (although I do know it was college football, not the NFL). I'm pretty sure it was first brought to my attention by apostropher. A little help, apo?
Posted by M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:26 PM
*cough*
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:43 PM
A little help to locate the ironically named Reggie Love.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:45 PM
6: Matt Leinart, but in his case it was voluntary.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:47 PM
That was o-irony.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:47 PM
You know what's great about that thread? On comment 88, M/tch asks what's the most comments ever on an Unfogged thread, and on comment 93, Ogged says he's pretty sure the thread has set the record.
Oh, to be young again.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 9:53 PM
That's a good thread, and rereading it reminds me of something I wanted to bring up anyway and will in my next comment.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:19 PM
So, laundromats: good places to meet women, or not?
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:20 PM
teo, it's really impolitic to try to get a woman to do your laundry.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:23 PM
Depends on the kind of woman you want to meet. I strongly recommend women with their own washer and dryer. Particularly if you haven't a washer and dryer of your own.
Also, women with cable.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:26 PM
(Oh, and I don't know. I've always been blessed with housing featuring w/d {not the commenter, mind you}).
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:26 PM
I have to say that owning a washer and dryer is not very high on the list of things I'm looking for in a romantic partner.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:27 PM
Laundry capability is no dealbreaker, of course, but fringe benefits matter. In your specific case, I'd also recommend a woman who owns music. And maybe a chicken.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:34 PM
In my present situation I'm rather unlikely to find a woman who owns a washer and dryer (or a chicken). I think music's a given.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:37 PM
In seriousness, it seems like a reasonable place to talk to someone you're interested in. After all, you're both obviously waiting around with little to do. And, I presume (without evidence) that the likelihood of the other person being single is increased. So if I were interested in a person in a laundromat, I'd be more likely to talk to him or her, as compared with some other place where one has to wait (e.g., auto shop).
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:37 PM
N.B.: When washing a chicken, always use the gentle cycle and dry on low heat. They aren't particularly sturdy.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:41 PM
20: That's basically what I'm thinking. Unfortunately, the laundromat I currently use is close enough to my apartment that I just go home while my clothes are in the machines, so there's less waiting around involved. Still seems like a good venue generally.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:42 PM
I dunno. I'd probably want a clear signal or in before I tried to talk to someone in a laundromat. Sure, when people are occupied by a rote task, that makes for a captive audience, but it's still a chorse, and one for which people dress intentionally in their worst. If a girl approached me in a laundromat, I'd probably be thinking gaaah I'm wearing the L.A. Raiders shirt with the holes in it.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:51 PM
I'm unsure whether hanging around reading whatever sexy book you happen to be reading at the time would be wise or a smarmo move. Or both.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:51 PM
Of course, this strategy seems to have a flaw. At present, I'm doing laundry because I'm down to no underwear, so I'm wearing pajama pants, shoes with no socks, and a dress shirt. I suppose I could be endearing this way, but it seems like I'm at least at a disadvantage given my current disheveled appearance. You may be a more responsible launderer, however.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:51 PM
Pwned. Fuck you, 'smasher, and your stupid Raiders shirt. Go Bears!
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:53 PM
Fewer clothes to rip off in the heat of passion.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:54 PM
At present, I'm doing laundry because I'm down to no underwear
Well there's your pick-up line.
Posted by Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 10:54 PM
Just don't admit that it's some other woman's chicken in the rinse cycle. Say it's yours. Women dig guys with pets.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:00 PM
Yes, apo, but wouldn't that asphyxiate the chicken?
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:01 PM
Dude, then you play the sympathy card. You haven't done this much, have you?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:06 PM
We're going for less chicken-choking here, apo.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:07 PM
23, 25: Luckily, I'm always breathtakingly handsome no matter how ratty my clothes are.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:08 PM
wouldn't that asphyxiate the chicken?
You're skipping over step 2, "snorkel the chicken".
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:08 PM
"Is that chicken snorkel in your dryer, or are you just happy to see me?"
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:15 PM
"dryer" s/b "washer" I suppose.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:19 PM
You would need to dry the snorkel afterward, though.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:21 PM
The chicken too. A dead wet chicken is very little fun and suprisingly ineffective as a conversation-starter.
Posted by Tarrou | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:33 PM
If you use the snorkel properly, the chicken should still be alive at that point.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:37 PM
But wet, to be sure.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:38 PM
A dead roasted rooster, though, is another story.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:38 PM
teo, this is no time for cock jokes. We're trying to give you advice
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:39 PM
Oh, shit. I mean "ben."
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:40 PM
Advice: the chicken works well in pre-laundromat rehearsals.
Posted by Tarrou | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:44 PM
Fuck, teo, nevermind. I'm commenting on a blog at 1:43 in the morning with no underwear on. Listen to nothing—nothing—I say.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:46 PM
I'm way ahead of you, Stan.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:47 PM
That's not what I heard....
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:47 PM
Seriously, though, you and 'smasher are the only people who have given me anything even vaguely resembling useful advice, for which I thanks you.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:48 PM
I thanks you muchly, I does.
I should go to bed. I've been staying up way too late.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:49 PM
In my epxerience, the laundromats near apartments with lots of college aged women (which I'm assuming is the case here) can be fruitful. Stay and hang out with a book. The results can't be any worse than going home.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-19-06 11:52 PM
That's what I've been thinking.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:03 AM
All right, I really should go to bed. Good night, all.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:06 AM
Pah!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:13 AM
About the laundromat thing, I'd only say that talking with someone there is fine, but keep it dialed down a fair bit. It's not a social place like a bar, and as people aren't really there "voluntarily", they have a reasonable expectation of solitude/privacy. Anything beyond brief small talk would need a reasonably clear indication from the other person that it wouldn't be bothersome.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:03 AM
Teo - Stay focused. Go to the laudromat to do your laundry; that's what laundromats are for. But feel at liberty to do it in a very time-consuming manner. If you see someone with whom you'd like to talk, wait to do so until you see her for the third time.
Posted by froz gobo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:12 AM
No no no, he's shy enough as it is. Remember that Valentine's King of the Hill episode? Learn from Master Boomhauer.
BOBBY: This is your big secret? You just ask every woman you see until one of them finally says yes?
BOOMHAUER: Man, sh! Don't dang ol' tell my secret, man!
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:40 AM
And you don't have to wait the three weeks you might normally, until what you're wearing is embarassing. Keep an eye on it, and go more often. There's no loss at all if you do multiple loads of the same category now, or if the loads are overfull. Even if the loads will be light, think of the small extra expense as equivalent to a cover charge. There is no harm in studying the hours and frequency of the place.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 5:39 AM
think of the small extra expense as equivalent to a cover charge
The laundromat needs to get bouncers. And a VIP area.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 5:47 AM
Naturally, as soon as he gets his libido in check, he goes to the laundromat and meets the Girl. Her name is Erica... and picking up someone while doing her dirty clothes is her thing. That must be why she brings her laundry but no detergent, no fabric softener and no change.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:17 AM
I have hope for your laundromat stratagem, teo, I really do, but I fear it'll be a wash.
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:30 AM
I wouldn't think of it as a place to meet women. Not that you couldn't, but I think I'd feel a little bit weird if someone were showing too much interest in me in a laundromat, if only because if I think he's a creep, I still have to wait around to get my laundry.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:34 AM
It's late at night and the laundromat is deserted except for Teo and Erica. (Well and of course the camaraman but let's accept for the moment the most basic suspension of disbelief required by cinema.)
E (stage-whispering to herself after a quick glance at Teo's sculpted musculature under his too-tight dress shirt) Oh rats! Forgot to bring my quarters! (Flutters her long eyelashes in Teo's direction -- we see him responding, and the camera pans back to her) Say, looks like you've got a couple of rolls of quarters in your pocket, could I borrow a couple?...
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:35 AM
Hey, I have been hit on at a laundromat before. On multiple occasions. Didn't take, but don't let that stop you, 'cause they weren't, like, ravishingly handsome or however it is that you describe yourself.
Posted by m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:36 AM
I've been hit on by an older creepy guy. Note: if you do decide to talk to someone, don't leer at her underwear.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:40 AM
Well Cala, obviously if you go to the laundromat in your underwear you've got to expect some looks. Better to run a load before everything's dirty.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:44 AM
Ooh, good point.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:45 AM
I'd feel a little bit weird if someone were showing too much interest in me...
This is a universal, venue-independent problem. Trouble is, by the time you're moved to adopt some strategy, chances are you'll be showing to much interest in everybody
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:47 AM
She was saying she's tied to the place because she is required to wait, that makes it more stressful that someone is showing too much interest.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 6:51 AM
Deadspin is teh best.
Posted by dammitman | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:05 AM
Next to unfogged, of course.
Posted by dammitman | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:05 AM
Here's some specific laundromat pick-up advice: appear helpless, as if you've never washed your own clothes before.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:08 AM
That advice is also useful at gas stations, gyms, and fast food drive-thrus.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:12 AM
68 gets it right. In a coffee shop or a bar or somewhere social, if I think you're a creep, I can leave, or move to another area of the bar, or have the bouncer toss you out, or something. Here I have to wait 42 minutes for the dryer cycle to finish. Oh, and since you're doing your laundry, you can't leave, either.
So, you *could* pick up someone at the laundromat. Who knows? But it wouldn't be the place I'd think, ooh, great place to meet women. Apparently, the article ac linked thinks otherwise, but the author of the article sounds like a sleeze.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:22 AM
Or sleaze. And she's a woman author. Still a sleaze though. Let's just say I'm not looking for a man who can't do his own laundry.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:23 AM
Hey guys, a Holocaust denier just posted a comment on an old Prussian Blue thread at 'Postropher's place, which reminds me to ask if anybody has seen Joe D.'s play yet? It opened Monday. I have my tickets to the show this afternoon.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:26 AM
Ok, you’ve probably heard that Laundromats are great pick up places, better than a singles bar
Has there been a 'singles bar' since disco died?
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:30 AM
Hey, you know what's unsatisfactory? Besides Holocaust denial? My alarm clock just went off even though it wasn't turned on. I do not think this should be encouraged.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:32 AM
Not just denying the Holocaust, but denying that Hitler ws racist. Which I'm reasonably sure even Hitler wouldn't have denied.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:34 AM
Hey Matt, you know who I was thinking would like the book I was reading this morning, "The Autograph Man" by Zadie Smith? You, that's who.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:36 AM
(that is to say, besides myself of course.)
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:38 AM
Yeah, Cala, I wasn't endorsing it, just found it.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:39 AM
How can I not have linked this yet? The point is this link.
So yeah, listen to the CwOs. I say hang around with the book, maybe whichever one Ethan Hawke is reading in Before Sunrise, and see if someone meets you. Maybe you can try making eye babies in a pleasant way.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:42 AM
"Rachel Davis shows you how to pickup women anywhere"
Wrap your arms tightly around the waist, and lift using your knees to avoid back injuries.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:43 AM
I think I like the Havrilesky strip I linked in my previous entry even better. Sadly these were the last two Fillers ever.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:46 AM
81: Oh, I didn't think you were endorsing it. Just pointing out the skeeeeeve factor.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:47 AM
Weiner- are you from KY?
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:54 AM
85: More here, to the tune of:
"You Will Be Amazed By How Easy You Can Pickup Hot Women - Anywhere And Everywhere You Go - With Ease and Finesse Using Simple Words!"
"Even If You Are Low-Paid, Ugly or Overweight!"
"YOU Could Be Making Time, Making Out, and Making Love... With The Most Gorgeous Little Piece Of “Action” Who Thinks You’re The Greatest Thing Since The Wonder Bra!"
"No More Stuck Up, Smart Ass Comments From Chicks That Don’t Even Rate a 6 ½...... And That’s On A Scale Of 100..."
I'd like to believe that 'Rachel Davis' isn't a female author at all.
Posted by Doctor Slack | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:54 AM
86: No, Pittsburgh, PA. Why? (That is, did anything suggest KY?)
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 7:57 AM
88- The post linked in 84 made me curious.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:03 AM
#73 makes an important point - we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
Posted by Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:03 AM
I was born in Kentucky.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:04 AM
68, 73. I know. It's obvious once it isn't you. But I can't help but remember my own lonliness and desperation. I was a commuter in college, when proximity and familiarity were the basis of social life. It's a very hard nut to crack, and the misery of isolation, even when originally self-imposed, is unforgetable.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:08 AM
90: Yes, for sure. While most of last night's boys' chatter was about making cock jokes, I think this point was definitely overlooked (but, whoa! the cock jokes!).
You could perhaps meet someone at a laundromat, especially if you ran into that person on multiple occasions. But for the most part, this probably happens only in Doritos commercials.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:10 AM
Let me put in an opposing voice on the 'picking people up in public places' thing. Yeah, don't be sleazy, and let someone alone if she brushes you off. But if you, personally, aren't being a sleazy overattentive creep, there's nothing wrong with being friendly.
Think of it as a two step process: if you start out by being outgoingly friendly, but not doing anything that looks like a romantic approach, there's nothing wrong with that, and someone who doesn't want to be chatted up will not be friendly in return and you know to leave them alone. If you find someone who doesn't mind friendly chatter, there's nothing wrong with asking if they want to have coffee or some food or something.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:13 AM
we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
This isn't, exactly, false, but can be overstated. Someone who's being creepily pushy or threatening comes off quite differently than someone who is being friendly -- genuinely friendly, while it might be annoying if you want to be left alone, isn't particularly frightening.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:15 AM
If you find someone who doesn't mind friendly chatter, there's nothing wrong with asking if they want to have coffee or some food or something.
Or asking (politely!) if you can sniff their dirty underwear.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:15 AM
96: Yeah, that always works.
Non sequitur: Everybody should watch this video. It might just be the greatest thing I have ever seen.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:18 AM
Matt finds his dates in only the classiest of establishments, but there are indeed singles bars.
At least twice people have tried to pick me up in a laundromat. One time the guy definitely gave off the vibe of someone who wanted to chop me up and store me in his basement.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:19 AM
Luckily, this basement has wifi.
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:19 AM
I should point out that I do agree with 95 & froz gobo's advice. See someone there often enough, being friendly is fine. It's just not the sort of place I'd suggest to meet women, or to go 'looking.' And I do think that I'd probably be less receptive to someone being friendly at a laundromat than I would be at a coffee shop.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:22 AM
I take it your FL parts are as yet undetached.
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:22 AM
Well.
89: Ah. No, I think I was just mixing up "My Tennessee Mountain Home" and "My Old Kentucky Home." No songs about people thinking about their old Pennsylvania home.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:25 AM
But if you, personally, aren't being a sleazy overattentive creep, there's nothing wrong with being friendly.
The "picking women up in laundromats" phase of my life is way behind me, but I suspect some men would appreciate some more concrete guidelines for not making women feel uncomfortable. I know I would have, back in the day.
"Creepy" is a very subjective term. And even if it weren't, it's a term like "bad driver" that one is naturally resistant to applying to oneself.
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:26 AM
I am a richer, more well rounded person for having seen the video in 97. I am also now a better dancer.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:26 AM
Looking around a little more, that site seems to be the cheese shop of singles bar listings.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:26 AM
#73 makes an important point - we men generally forget that a large part of what a woman feels when approached by a strange man is fear and panic, no matter how nice the man is, and this is exacerbated when the woman has no polite way to escape.
These attempts are doomed. There is no formal rule about where to approach a woman, though there are clearly better and worse places. The critical issue is, as Ned indicates, are you likely to freak the woman out? So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:27 AM
I should mention: I kind of assumed teo had some specific person in mind but was unsure if trying to get to know her was okay. I have no basis for this assumption. teo? Wake up already. The internets are talking about you again.
Posted by Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:30 AM
103: I suspect some men would appreciate some more concrete guidelines for not making women feel uncomfortable.
Well, SCMT hits one:
So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
If you're specificially worried that she might be afraid of you, leave her alone. The only other advice I've got is don't be persistent. Someone who doesn't mind being approached will be smiling and being friendly in return if you say something. If you haven't got an actively friendly response in two sentences or so, back off.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:32 AM
These attempts are doomed. There is no formal rule about where to approach a woman, though there are clearly better and worse places. The critical issue is, as Ned indicates, are you likely to freak the woman out?
You and Ned must have the serial killer eyes or something. All he has to do, as LB suggested, is try a little casual conversation. If the friendliness isn't reciprocated, then he goes back to his book.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:34 AM
It's a hard term to define, 'creep'. It's not anything you say, it's more a vibe that you send off that you are more interested in t3h s3xx0r than the woman as a person.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:37 AM
Teo - stay in the the laudromat, be friendly and talk to friendly people. You know you aren't creepy, so your whole body language will convey that and other people will realize you aren't creepy. My fear on being approached by a pretty young college student isn't that he will store me in his basement, it is that he will chat my ear off if I make eye contact twice. As long as you notice signs that she doesn't want extended conversation then you are in the clear.
Your new laundromat policy (be out in public, be pleasant, talk to people) should extend to the rest of your time, too. You're in college and it will never be easier to meet people. Don't sit home reading all the time.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:40 AM
Do: wear pants
Do not: address her b00bz0rs
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:42 AM
The difficulty is what to advice the young man who has got himself into a position where his desperate loneliness is fully borne in on him. And this can happen very easily, particularly to the shy and the scrupulous. When you get off work at some stupid hour, and realize you don't know anybody, there is nothing to be done for it, but it's impossible not to go out looking anyway, even though you know it will only make things worse.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:45 AM
Creepy vibe -
Gazing too long is the biggest component and can be very uncomfortable at any distance.
In conversation:
Inappropriately personal, especially about 'how women are'. Standing too close. Persisting in the conversation after the other person has indicated s/he doesn't want to talk.
Look, if you guys are worried, you are also certainly self-aware enough that you don't do these things. Almost everyone doesn't. The occasional creepy person does, but since you know you aren't creepy (because inside, you do not believe the age of consent should be lowered to twelve so that you can find your mate before she is exposed to other men's sperm) then trust that your demeanor is reflecting your beliefs.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:49 AM
112 -- y'mean her grandma?
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:50 AM
but it's impossible not to go out looking anyway, even though you know it will only make things worse.
Jesus IDP, between you, Ned, and SCMT, it'll be a miracle if Teo doesn't kill himself by the end of the thread.
Posted by gswift | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:50 AM
Don't listen to this nonsense, teo: real women are impressed by wealth and confidence. Walk right over to her, pull out a brand new roll of quarters -- place it conspicuously on the machine so she sees that it's a full roll -- and insist on paying for her laundry. Tell her it's the least you could do to repay her for the chance to admire her beauty for 45 minutes. Then -- and this is the most important part -- at some point when you notice her eyeing your roll of quarters, casually mention that you have dozens of those things back at your apartment. (Don't say 'hundreds', even if it's true. You want to impress her without attracting gold diggers.) If she's still eyeing you (and how could she not be?) you're ready to close the deal: "Maybe when our clothes are clean we can go back to my place and get things dirty again."
Guaranteed success if you play these cards right.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:55 AM
As I mentioned, I've been out of the dating scene for a rather long time, but I had the impression that Internet Dating had pretty much rendered singles bars, laundromats, etc., pretty much obsolete.
Have I been misinformed?
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:55 AM
It's called computer dating,
Is Friday night ok then,
It's called computer dating...
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:58 AM
118- He's in college. College people can still meet in person.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:58 AM
re: laundrette
Brief smiley eye contact and not being an obvious freak...
I used to get chatting to girls, in a not-trying-to-hookup-way pretty often. I suppose it depends on the area. My local laundrette in Glasgow was mostly used by students who were the same age as me, so it was pretty friendly.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:58 AM
Hm, very odd. The internet lyrics thingies are not telling me what the song is I'm thinking of. Anyone know it?
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 8:59 AM
Megan:
baa:
Advantage: Dickens!
Posted by FL | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:02 AM
Aha: is by Patrick Martin. Does not appear to be in any of the lyrics databases though. Strange.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:03 AM
Dickens won't ever blow you. That requires meeting live people.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:05 AM
BTW some excellent, excellent cover art on IRS Greatest Hits Vols 2 & 3 (scroll down).
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:09 AM
College people can still meet in person
As I said above, there is a whole class of people for whom this is not easy at all.
To them that hath, it shall be given.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:09 AM
re: 127
Yeah, but it comes with practice. People who are confident around other people and especially people of [the sex to which they are attracted] are presumably not born that way. They get that way.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:13 AM
It obviously isn't easy, but is it possible? And is it worth it to end the desperate lonliness and to have plans when you get off work, so you don't have to walk the streets at night, humming the Smiths to yourself, looking into the lit windows brimming with the warmth and companionship that will forever be denied to you?
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:14 AM
Dickens won't ever blow you.
Which is ironic, given how much Dickens blows.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:21 AM
The difficulty is what to advice the young man who has got himself into a position where his desperate loneliness is fully borne in on him. And this can happen very easily, particularly to the shy and the scrupulous.
Right. This is the crux of the matter. Don't go looking for potential dates; go looking for potential friends. (What you want is a continuous stream of potential dates flowing past you as a result of your female friends.) And you may occasionally come off as a creep. Nothing to be done about that: it's part of the learning process. You aren't going to kill or substantially harm the woman you approach with any inadvertant creepiness. And, over time, you'll develop a sense of how to approach people at various times and places.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:22 AM
There is a case to be made that self consciousness does not preclude teh creepy. I saw a funny, and ultimately creepy, short film about a guy's internal narrative as he followed a woman around wondering if she thought he was a stalker, and then stalking her in the attempt to prove he wasn't.
Not that this applies to teo, who I've previously said is hot + charming.
Posted by Tia | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:23 AM
128: Yes indeed, and in fact the friendship and conversation of older women, professors, tutors, friends, was very helpful, to me. If you are such a person, the amount of good you can do a young man, at least the kind I was, is hard to overestimate. The first thing he needs is the sense that somebody female thinks he's worth talking to, that his thoughts and opinions are worth hearing, that he's a normal human being and not somebody to look away from and shun. The self-protectiveness of the young woman is understandable and natural; the older woman should be a little more secure.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:25 AM
You aren't going to kill or substantially harm the woman you approach with any inadvertant creepiness.
Well, you can, but it's probably the very least efficient way to do it. Much, much easier just to run them over with your car.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:28 AM
Or do you not have one of those either?
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:28 AM
Troll alert! Hate to go off topic...just ignore,won't be long.
Last night I had a dream, I swear is true, on me mother's grave, I dreamed of photographs and flickr sets of photographs:photographs of pretty women in clear polyvinyl jackets on the streets of Paris in the rain. And all the photos, every one, was captioned:"Guy Debord." I swear.
I must read more about the Spectacle. I am summoned. That is all.
Posted by bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:44 AM
It would be pretty funny (in some ways, though perhaps not in others) if it turned out that Teo is something of a sociopath, and here we've been, giving him our best advice.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 9:56 AM
Has there been a 'singles bar' since disco died?
I saw one in Berlin, in Mitte. I could probably tell you the exact street if I could find my map; it was parallel to Neue Schönhauserstr.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:10 AM
re: 137
There are quite a few singles 'clubs' in the UK but I gather they cater for an older divorced crowd, mostly. I have an older divorced male relative, ahem, who used to go to one.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:19 AM
132: Well, yes. Not to add any unnecessary older-woman sleaziness to the conversation, but a sad commentary on human nature is that someone who looks like Teo probably has a little more room to make friendly advances without coming off as sleazy, just because he's awfully cute in that 'Jack Armstrong, All-American Boy' sort of way. Ugly isn't insurmountable, but does add another layer of difficulty.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:20 AM
It would be pretty funny (in some ways, though perhaps not in others) if it turned out that Teo is something of a sociopath, and here we've been, giving him our best advice.
I think you're vastly overrating the value of our advice.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:23 AM
Serious advice to Teo: sign up for dance classes. I spent the weekend at a jazz festival with an old boy who does tango and jive. Somebody was teasing him about all the women he had running around after him and I thought they were just having a laugh. But twice in as many days some woman walked smack up to him out of nowhere and started chatting. Both of them he knew from swinging them around a dance floor.
Got to be worth a try.
Posted by OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:28 AM
141: Except the chicken stuff. That shit works.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:29 AM
As a general matter, talking to strangers is a good way to start trying to meet women. I know that sounds absurdly vague, but I think it's sound advice for shy people: if you want to get more comfortable talking people you don't know yet, it might be easier to start with the more general category of "people" rather than the specific category of "sexually desirable women." (And no, internet people don't count.) So, SCMT and Megan's takes on this thread seem good: get out there, talk to whomever, see what happens.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:36 AM
Both of them he knew from swinging
This is a great way to meet new women, although I think generally one needs already to have a partner in order to partake. It's like one of those "and the rich get richer..." sort of things.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:39 AM
Brock, maybe that's the case in the US, but over here there's about a 4:1 ratio of women wanting to learn to dance, so they're not that fussy. As long as you have two feet* and don't smell, you're in.
*In smaller population centres this may be optional.
Posted by OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:47 AM
146 is right, and a bunch of us have already given Teo the same advice. Even under circumstances where you need to bring a partner, he's got female friends who might be willing to help out.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:48 AM
And 144 is also right. Talk to lots of people. Men, unattractive women, and attractive women.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:49 AM
AMTF...
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:50 AM
146, 147: I think you're both misunderstanding Brock's use of the word "swinging."
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:52 AM
149- Asociación Mexicana de Terapia Familiar?
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:53 AM
Heh. I'm terribly, terribly literal minded.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:55 AM
151: Are you, too, displaying AMTF? Or has it really been so long?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:57 AM
146/147: Was 145 not an obvious joke?
Of course there are at least 4 women for every guy that wants to take dance lessons. But Teo doesn't want to dance, Teo wants to "dance". And there aren't all that many women who think that "dancing" is a good way to meet new people. The 4:1 ratio is probably reversed, in fact.
PWNED!! on preview.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 10:57 AM
The misunderstanding in 145-147 could be the basis for a totally hilarious episode of Unfogged: The Sitcom.
Apo, I didn't realize you were such a huge Maya Angelou fan. You probably know all about this.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:00 AM
My mind is too fuzzy.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:02 AM
AMTF= a mind too fuzzy?
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:05 AM
Apparently "terapia familiar" is not a species of turtle.
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:06 AM
Oh noes, as it were.
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:08 AM
(And no, internet people don't count.)
I agree with the spirit of this advice, but I actually think a lot of the verification I referred to above could have come from internet people such as we. In a sense, I still need it, who doesn't? and do really think that a site like this would have been very useful back in the day.
Posted by Anonymous | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:12 AM
Anyway, if teofilo is hot, why aren't women hitting on him all the time? Thus negating his need to make the effort.
I say this not to deny my adopted son's physical charm, but out of confusion.
Posted by nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:12 AM
A mind too fine.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:14 AM
Women are hitting on him all the time, he's just too shy to realize it. Is my guess. Based on personal experience.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:14 AM
I've been talking about turtles a lot recently, but really, I'm not obsessed with turtles, or even particularly taken with them. But who doesn't like the occasional turtle? It's ridiculous that I have to defend myself like this. My interest is totally casual! I'm not stalking you baby turtles I AM NOT STALKING YOU
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:14 AM
Women are hitting on him all the time, he's just too shy to realize it. Is my guess. Based on personal experience.
Boy howdy.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:14 AM
I know of places where it is often considered bad form for a woman to approach a man. Here, for instance.
Posted by sam k | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:15 AM
166 to 161
Posted by sam k | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:15 AM
Personally, I find the turtles I meet too familiar.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:16 AM
But 163 is what people usually tell me.
Posted by sam k | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:16 AM
I know of places where it is often considered bad form for a woman to approach a man. Here, for instance.
Here at unfogged?! Say it isn't so.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:17 AM
155: It's been done -- an episode of Just Shoot Me had exactly this premise.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:18 AM
171: This is an interesting glimpse into the areas of LB's expertise, no?
Posted by mrh | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:20 AM
It's been done -- an episode of Just Shoot Me had exactly this premise.
Most surprising revalation on Unfogged ever: LB's a Just Shoot Me fan.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:20 AM
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's a turtle that addresses me as "tu."
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:21 AM
I was thinking that was an embarrassing thing to know. I like nitwitted sitcoms. I haven't watched them much in the last five years or more, but I like them. Give me a choice (on TV) between a hard-hitting police procedural and a half-hour of stupid jokes, I'll go for the stupid jokes every time.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:22 AM
So the question to ask is, "Is there a real possibility that I'm going to have to say, 'I assure you that I'm not a stalker.'" If so, leave her alone.
Now he pipes up with the good advice. This is almost exactly what I had to say to the woman at Whole Foods that I asked out. I probably should have considered the "if she says "no," it's going to be really awkward to shop here" thing beforehand. It might just be paranoia, but a lot of the people at that Whole Foods look at me funny now, but I need my groceries, so to hell with them!
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:22 AM
Besides 60 Sunset Strip, does anyone have opinions on new shows that might be worth watching? I need something to supplement Weeds, which I'm rapidly losing faith in anyway.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:24 AM
176- you should start wearing a costume so they don't recognize you.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:24 AM
You could shop elsewhere.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:26 AM
175 -- They made TVLand for people like us.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:27 AM
To hell with them is a good attitude (really) but strangers aren't looking at you in Whole Foods. Strangers do not look at you and evaluate you because strangers do not care. Shy people, this is especially for you - strangers are NOT judging you. Strangers are thinking about their dry cleaning and whether they should get blueberries. If they walk past you without smiling, it is not because they think you are pathetic, it is because they are self-absorbed. Their abstraction is NOT about you, and you will have to talk to them to break through it.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:28 AM
For a slightly different perspective, a girl once told me (through an intermediary, no less) that I was paying entirely too much attention to her, it was creepy, and that I should stop. This confused me, in addition to kind of freaking me out, since I really didn't interact with her in a manner any different than with my other female friends. All was later made clear when I found out that she wasn't actually creeped out, but rather had a crush on me that she found inconvenient (given the existence of her boyfriend). This was her way of distancing herself from me, I suppose.
Not that assuming something of this sort is a good way to go about things. You likely won't go wrong by striving to avoid cries of "creep!" and "stalker!"
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:28 AM
171: Pwned by Just Shoot Me? Has there ever been more ignominious pwnage?
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:28 AM
178 -- alternately he could grow a beard.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:28 AM
184 - in, like, 15 minutes.
Posted by Megan | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:30 AM
strangers are NOT judging you
This isn't true, shy people, but pretend it is.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:32 AM
Listen, those hirsuite Mexicans can do it pretty quickly.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:32 AM
This is almost exactly what I had to say to the woman at Whole Foods that I asked out.
You're probably overreading the reaction. In any case, I bet you were done in by your freakish foreign formality.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:35 AM
This isn't true, shy people,
Yeah, I'm very particular with my smiles at Whole Foods. I even factor in what kind of food is in your basket, if I have time to look.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:36 AM
No smiles for farmed salmon!
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:37 AM
I very rarely judge strangers who I'm not eavesdropping on. Except for those reading The Da Vinci Code on the subway, who I've judged and found wanting. Also people reading certain other popular novels, mostly ones that I've also read but aren't indicative of my actual taste, while I assume that they are indicative for other people.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:37 AM
186: One of the most depressing studies I ever saw was something in which (as I rememer it -- I may be inflating it for more depressingness) a number of depressed and of non-depressed people were asked to spend some time with a group of other people, and then write down what the other people thought of them. The non-depressed people said uniformly that each of the other people either liked or was paying no attention to them. The depressed people said things like "X thought I was annoying, Y thought I was stupid, Z thought I was funny looking." The non-depressed people were consistently over-estimating how well others thought of them; the depressed people were remarkably accurate.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:38 AM
Dear god, you people are useless.
Teo, you can practice flirting at the laundromat, yes. Don't bother to aim for anything more, since "practicing flirting" is a useful end in itself, and also b/c that way you neither have unrealistic expectations nor much probability of coming on too strong. Bring a book, but for god's sake don't just sit and read, which makes it impossible to actually, you know, meet people's eyes or talk to them? The "bring a book to the laundromat" advice isn't in and of itself going to accomplish anything but clean laundry and some reading: both useful, but not exactly what you're hoping to get done, yes?
So I say, bring a boring book, or some school stuff, or else an interesting book like some good recent fiction. Then you have a silent invitation to conversation, i.e., "you're a student?" or "oh, I liked that book."
But you can't just depend on people to talk to you. Your role, as the guy, is to look up occasionally and sort of idly gaze around as if thinking, rather than scoping the chicks. Then you catch someone's eye and just smile nicely. That's it. This means "friendly, cute, not pushy." Then you putz with your homework or book some more, gaze around a little bit, see if you catch her eye again, see if she smiles, say "hi." Then she says "hi." Then, if you like, you can make a joke like, "so, come here often?" but of course you have to say it as a joke. If she laughs, you're good. If she gets tense, you say "I'm sorry, that was a lame joke, never mind me" and go back to your book and leave her alone.
If she's the bold type and says hi or asks *you* a question ("whatcha reading?"), then you have been given permission to make friendly conversation.
If you meet the same person there more than once and have established friendly laundromat relations (i.e., she smiles and talks to you rather than ignoring you), or if she seems especially friendly or you're getting along or if she gives you an opening like "god I'm starving" then you are permitted to say something like "I'm going to go grab a bite while this stuff dries, want to come with?"
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:38 AM
Hey, what's useless? I said that. Not in so much detail, but I said that.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:40 AM
Just to chime in support: you need to get comfortable meeting people as people before you can get comfortable meeting women as potential dates. Téo's cute enough that he probably would have to work sending off a creepy vibe, but still, it's easier to feel relaxed about the guy you see chatting kindly to everyone than the guy who only zeroes in on women above a certain hottness quotient.
Dance lessons are good, unless you really hate dancing, by which I mean hate, not dislike because of inexperience and shyness. Dance is especially good because then when you go to parties or dances in a group you can be the hero that dances with the women. But if you're not into dance, pretty much anything that gets you out of the house and interacting with people will work: gym classes, volunteer organizations, choir, orchestra, board games, synagogue/church events.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:40 AM
In case it helps, I had an attractive woman ask me about the book I was reading just this week -- the book was "White Teeth" by Zadie Smith.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:40 AM
(An attractive female stranger that is -- it was on the elevator.)
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:41 AM
LB,
exactly. people don't like you, but they'd rather you pretend that you thought they liked you, so just act as if they like you, and forget about it.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:42 AM
Strangers are so far from not judging you that they might be contemplating how best to take you out.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:42 AM
The non-depressed people were consistently over-estimating how well others thought of them; the depressed people were remarkably accurate.
Sure, a big part of not being depressed is not caring so much about what's true. But what the study doesn't get at is how to change impressions and interactions over time. The happy people have a much better chance of improving others' opinion of them, if only because they're more likely to try.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:44 AM
199: yay! Another BJMBASK comment!
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:46 AM
200. And because being depressed is a good way to get people to not like you. Vicious, that is.
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:47 AM
199: wtf?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:48 AM
The study also fails to point out that being depressed often means acting in weird ways that give bad impressions.
LB, I had skimmed the thread. We can now, if you wish, fight about whether or not that was okay.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:48 AM
Catfight!
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:49 AM
Jello!
Posted by Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:53 AM
Then, if you like, you can make a joke like, "so, come here often?" but of course you have to say it as a joke.
You probably ought to at least consider the possibility that this advice is t3h l4m3, and that B gives it because she's saving you for herself.
Posted by Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:53 AM
Say what you mean, Jesus: B gives it to you because she couldn't pick someone up with a crane.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:54 AM
Nah. I'll just mope here in the corner thinking about how none of you really like me.
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:55 AM
193: Now why did I never get useful advice like this when I was single?
Posted by Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:55 AM
So I say, bring a boring book, or some school stuff, or else an interesting book like some good recent fiction. Then you have a silent invitation to conversation, i.e., "you're a student?" or "oh, I liked that book."
Actually, teo should bring along a phonology book, and pretend to have trouble voicing some of the sounds, and ask people to help him. Not that that gives an obvious entry to further topics. But everyone likes phonology!
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:58 AM
Ok, what's the story with Santa?
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 11:59 AM
Or, he could write down her sounds in phonology symbols. I heard that worked really well and was awfully loverly.
Posted by Cala | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:00 PM
Ok, what's the story with Santa?
Miracle on 34th St.
Posted by standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:02 PM
Teo, did you try asking about wallabies yet?
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:03 PM
But everyone likes phonology!
Everybody in universities. Among the normal population this will get you: "You're weird, you", or "Who knows, who cares?".
Posted by OneFatEnglishman | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:03 PM
Then maybe teo should just draw attention to his hips.
Posted by ben wolfson | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:05 PM
LB, I had skimmed the thread. We can now, if you wish, fight about whether or not that was okay.
We all said that. So it won't be so much a fight as a beatdown.
Posted by SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:08 PM
At least B didn't come in advising teo to pee on anyone.
Posted by ac | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:09 PM
Well I'm off to see Mr. Drymala's musical. See you guys at the Mineshaft.
Posted by Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:10 PM
There's a guy who hangs out in one of my university's adjacent cafés with a stenography machine. The first time I noticed him, he'd been surrepticiously transcribing a trivial conversation I'd been having with some random person, and so of course I asked him about what he was up to. "Just practicing," he said and went on to offer his services as a stenographer if I needed one, etc. It became hideously obvious that this was his (ill-judged, creepy) method of trying to pick up girls and odd jobs. Whenever I see him, I pretend like I've never spoken to him before.
I suggest that 211 is poor advice.
Posted by Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:32 PM
I will now throw my hat into the advice ring: Teofilo, find someone doing analogous to the stenographer mentioned above (or in some other way poorly hitting on women), wait for him to fail at hitting on someone, and then, out of his ear shot (for one wouldn't want to be rude) ask the person he was hitting on, "Wait, that guy really wasn't trying what it looked he was, was he?" (possibly phrase it better than that). This will be a fine way to start a conversation. My other piece of advice is taken from Dershowitz's Letters to a Young Lawyer, which is that when people give advice they're just telling you how you can be like them, and there's no ex ante reason to think that you do in fact want that.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:47 PM
I'm not one to advise people on How 2 Scor Chix 4 the Shy College Guy, but I think 111, 131 and the general "talk to people" advice is good in general. If you're worried about not having enough of a social network, this can be nice even if you don't get dates out of it. (Though this may not be an issue for you.) I did make myself more extroverted after college, and making friendly relevant remarks to people around you helped (this can also be done to strangers at parties). (Also, being willing to call people up and ask them what was happening that night/soon, but that's another story.) Most people won't be too creeped, if you don't push the conversation after they respond noncomittally.
Of course once I did accidentally pick up a guy at the bus stop.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 12:59 PM
Also, being willing to call people up and ask them what was happening that night/soon
I can't do this with people who I haven't already categorized as friends.
Posted by washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:04 PM
Of course once I did accidentally pick up a guy at the bus stop.
"He didn't seem the least bit gay. At least not until he started sucking my cock, that is."
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:04 PM
Also, being willing to call people up and ask them what was happening that night/soon
Or calling them them up to ask them what happened last night and whether you did anything embarrassing. Always endearing.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:05 PM
Yeah, that may not have been clear -- that's part of the reason it was another story. Maybe I should highlight that in a separate paragraph:
I do not advocate going through the phonebook for women whose names sound hott and calling them to ask what they're doing that night.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:07 PM
"Wait, that guy really wasn't trying what it looked he was, was he?"
As seen in the recent feature film, "Hitch". Many other fine tips are to be found in that movie as well.
Posted by Matt F | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:07 PM
207: You might think that, but then you'd remember that I'm slutty and have multiple partners, so I'm not exclusive like that.
210: You didn't know me, obviously.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:08 PM
I remember the lift I would get from a pleasant conversation, yes, in laundromats and places like that. But I never was able to turn that into something more.
It wasn't until I started working a job with lots of other young people like myself, and our work hours made us into natural social companions, that I was in a position to be introduced to people, or fixed-up, or just saw enough of people to be friends.
I think for young people like I was, without a natural circle of friends from residence halls, work or some long-hour shared activity is an experience that can change their lives.
Posted by I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:45 PM
203. BJMBASK = Ben Just Might Be A Serial Killer
Posted by Michael | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 1:52 PM
Glad to see that the CwOs have chimed in with some very good advice.
I'm actually pretty well set as far as having a social network goes, so even though IDP's comments are achingly recognizable, I'm no longer really in that position.
Here's the backstory on the laundromat:
I went over there last night to do my laundry, and when I came back to put my clothes in the dryer a young woman walked in, apparently realized she hadn't brought any money, and asked me to watch her stuff while she ran home to get some. I agreed, of course, and hung around for a couple minutes reading the paper rather than going home as I usually do. When she came back she thanked me, and seemed a little embarrassed when I put down the paper and turned to leave, as she hadn't realized I was only staying there to watch her stuff. She was apologetic, but I said it was really no big deal and went home.
I came back half an hour later to pick up my clothes, and while I was folding them her wash cycle ended and she gathered up her clothes to put them in the dryer. As she was doing that I started thinking about this issue, and whether it would be a good idea to start up a conversation with someone in that context. I wasn't about to actually do it at the time; I don't think she would have been too receptive. I just started to think about the pros and cons, which have been amply pointed out in this thread.
Next time I may just sit there and read instead of going home and see what happens.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:13 PM
I don't think she would have been too receptive.
Sounds like somebody forgot to snorkle the chicken.
Posted by apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:18 PM
Damn! I knew I forgot something.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:18 PM
YES, you can start up a conversation with her once she's finished putting her clothes in the dryer. Or next time you see her at the laundromat. You can definitely say 'hi' without being creepola. Jeez.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:20 PM
You can definitely say 'hi' without being creepola. Jeez.
Unless he's a sociopath. Come on people, think of the innocents.
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:22 PM
232: you think too much. that's not something to be turned off, so what you should do is, when fate puts you in contact with someone with whom you'd like a chat, say something completely random. Then find a clever way out of it. This puts your mind to use, rather than running through scenarios until the opportunity passes.
I'm only 31% kidding.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:23 PM
As Weiner says, duh. She approached you, so she's clearly not scared of you generally -- attempted chatting is completely inoffensive. (Also, evidence (inconclusive, but certainly suggestive) for 163).
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:24 PM
I know I can; hell, I had already agreed to watch her stuff. It's more of an "is-this-a-good-idea?" thing.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:24 PM
I'm pretty sure she wasn't hitting on me; she seemed pretty flustered and really not in the mood to talk with anyone.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:26 PM
It's more of an "is-this-a-good-idea?" thing.
That's a good question, Teo. Are you a sociopath? Do you want to keep being one?
Posted by ogged | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:26 PM
Just hope that your random statement doesn't involve nudity, violence, or heavy use of profanity. If it does, then maybe we shouldn't be helping.
Posted by text | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:26 PM
"is-this-a-good-idea?"
Depends on whether or not she is teh hott, which you've neglected to mention.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:28 PM
237 is the appropriate 69% right. It's definitely a good party trick. Or you know, if you can think of something to say, say it (not "Those are good and articulate points," you know what I mean).
Is this a good idea?
Well, there's a chance that she'll turn out to be The Bridesmaid, but it's pretty damn unlikely. Plausible downside: small! Possible upside: large! In addition, the benefit of getting practice talking to women. Do the math.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:29 PM
243: She is.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:29 PM
I believe that what teo needs to overcome his shyness is the relentless mockery of his internet friends.
Posted by Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:30 PM
Hey, it's worth a shot.
Posted by teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:31 PM
Well then, never pass up a chance at a hot woman or a cold beer. That's my motto.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:33 PM
Well then, never pass up a chance at a hot woman or a cold beer. That's my motto.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:34 PM
So wise it bears repeating.
Posted by Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:34 PM
You know, 243 is actually true. Is it a good idea to talk to people at laundromats? Sure, why not. Why did you want to talk to *this particular* person, though? Did she seem kinda cute and attractive, or was it just "you appear to be a woman; must make a try"? Because therein lies the difference between cute and creepy.
The mistake was probably in just being a little too flat about folding the paper and going home. Perfectly harmless thing to do; but potentially awkward. Next time, smile and say "sure, glad to help." Neutrality often signals disapproval, especially for a certain type of woman/girl, since we're taught to be actively "nice" all the damn time. Anything less implies something's wrong. Especially if you're already feeling self conscious, which surely she was.
Posted by bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:40 PM
A truly wonderful dialog from a Fusco Brothers comic strip:
"Waiter, I'll have an iced cappucino."
"I can't believe you drink that. I like my coffee like I like my women; HOT!"
"Me too. Cold, pretentious, and in glasses."
Posted by LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-20-06 2:41 PM