Re: Guest post: Witt Writes With Wemphasis:

1

I don't know what to put for "organization". Not much, but improving with age?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:28 PM
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Aw, I'm touched that you're participating. I think when I did it, I just repeated my name.

(Yeah, the whole site is kind of kludged together from a tech standpoint. But oh well -- gotta honor the intent.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:30 PM
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*I say we let him go!*


Posted by: P.W. Herman | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:30 PM
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Um, "With" s/b "Wit'", no?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:31 PM
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I put my school. Some people seem to have put "self."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:33 PM
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Wow, I'm finding the ranking portion to be kind of hard. At least "Counterterrorism" was. I feel like I am failing a standardized Reading Comprehension test.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:36 PM
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I don't know what to put for "organization".

Silly heebie. The government doesn't want input from people. To ensure they take you seriously, claim to be Exxon or Halliburton or something.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:37 PM
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It's odd that "Homeland Security National Risk Assessment" and "Homeland Security Planning and Capabilities" are greyed out. I mean, I get it, I guess. They're saying, "We also work on these very important things; however, talking about it at all would be a National Security Risk!" which seems like pretty lame sauce.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:37 PM
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Under "Border Goals and Objectives" it says "Prevent illegal export of weapons, funds, and other materials". Do they mean US exporting these things elsewhere, or do they actually mean import? None of the other items seem to call us to task, so this one would be out of place.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:39 PM
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"How many years experience?"

Because they clearly don't care about people making judgments based on their experience as citizens.

I dunno, Witt, I'm getting a strong impression that they aren't really interested in feedback from people who aren't working in one of the listed industries. Not that that will stop me from filling it out.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:40 PM
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9: Relatedly, although these are of course licit sales.

We're winning!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:42 PM
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7: Or what's Blackwater called now? Xe it looks like.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:42 PM
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Do they mean US exporting these things elsewhere, or do they actually mean import?

I'm pretty sure they do mean export. It's a big problem.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:42 PM
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This country really does so many terrible, terrible things. It gets overwhelming.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:43 PM
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Dammit, Stanley!

Seriously, though, weapons exports from the US, whether legal or illegal, are a huge problem all over the world.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:43 PM
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I'm pretty sure they do mean export. It's a big problem.

I agree that it's a big problem, but why would it be Homeland Security's problem?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:44 PM
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Well, who else's problem would it be?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:45 PM
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16: For instance, they stop a lot of illegal guns bound for Mexico's drug gangs.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:45 PM
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Ooh, Enabling Resilience Activities. That sounds like fun.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:46 PM
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I really have the overwhelming impression that this is a low-tech effort that is rather disorganized. (Sorry, US government.) The mistakes they made in the design and set-up of their site, the clumsiness of some of the language and the field names, even the way they've done the PR for it -- these are absolutely classic stakeholder-survey mistakes that I've seen over and over.

Writing a good public-response data-gathering tool is hard. Most people don't have the first clue how to do it, and most of them are assigned to do it under deadline and with a fair bit of internal pressure to do it halfway. Moreover, most of the people with the tech expertise to do the back-end piece do not have experience in setting up a clear front-end for users to interact with.

So yes, it's a failure of imagination on their part that anyone outside of the tight little world of Emergency Responders and other Authoritatively Capitalized people might be answering their survey, and so the phrasing anticipates that it's a whole lot of municipal officials and the like. But it's a very common set of biases, and not at all specific to DHS.

(Can I just say how tickled I am that you are all such good sports to actually be doing this? 15+ years of sending such exhortations by e-mail and I've never actually gotten such a response.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:47 PM
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16: A big proportion of the guns used in all the drug gang violence in Mexico are purchased in the US at gun shows and then smuggled into Mexico.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:48 PM
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Has anyone found "Retire the Threat Level Color System?" I rated a bunch of DFH-y proposals and downgraded a bunch of LGF-y ones, but I couldn't find the grail.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:48 PM
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i.e it's a different problem than US companies peddling weapons to conflict zones.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:49 PM
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Submit it yourself, k-sky! Just click on the "Submit an Idea" button.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:50 PM
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Well, who else's problem would it be?

We do a lot of awful things that we don't bother to clean up. THe other choices are:

Prevent illegal entry of people and illicit contraband
Secure global movement systems from use for nefarious purposes
Dismantle transnational criminal organizations
Partner with North American neighbors to secure our borders
Prevent illegal export of weapons, funds, and other materials
Prevent introduction of threats to health, food, or agriculture

so it's the only choice that comes close to saying that Americans are part of the problem.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:51 PM
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I really have the overwhelming impression that this is a low-tech effort that is rather disorganized. (Sorry, US government.)

This is a surprise?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:51 PM
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21 not pwned by 18 because the problem is, in fact, that they're not stopping enough of those guns, so M/tch's phrasing is clearer.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:51 PM
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Ooh, Enabling Resilience Activities. That sounds like fun.

ISOMETRIC EXERCISE!
EIGHT THUMBS UP


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:52 PM
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25: They aren't choices, though. They're all things within DHS's mandate, and the question is how to prioritize them.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:52 PM
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15+ years of sending such exhortations by e-mail and I've never actually gotten such a response.

It's definitely more fun when you can chat about it as you go.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:52 PM
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20: Yeah, it's very jargony. What's the difference between "Facilitate Immigrant Integration" and "Facilitate Community Cohesion"? I have no idea. And why is "Make Good, Prompt Decisions" something that can only be done with a tradeoff of devoting less resources to "Creating a User-Friendly System"? Wouldn't one imagine they could be done at the same time? I dunno. It's hard to guess at what the phrasing means well enough to know what rankings to pick.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:53 PM
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27 gets it exactly right.

26: This is a cliché.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:53 PM
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Wouldn't one imagine they could be done at the same time?

They can; I think (although I wasn't paying close enough attention to be sure) that the point values are structured so that you can always allot 10 points to each option.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:54 PM
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I still think 9 was a reasonable question that does not imply that I was unaware that we export a massive amount of guns and other bad things.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:55 PM
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This is a surprise?

Well, in all seriousness, I have dealt with government feedback mechanisms that were much, much better designed. Indeed, one of the most lovely government interactions I've ever had was at an EPA public hearing during an especially dark period in the early Bush years.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:56 PM
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I keep thinking to myself, "'Rank Immigration Goals and Objectives'? Well, yes, you've had some of those."


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:58 PM
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34 gets it right. Is it really possible that the DHS thinks it should be any sort of priority at all to deal with the export of weapons?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:58 PM
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Good heavens, there is someone whose suggestion is "Mine the border."

The mind reels.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:59 PM
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34: Certainly "the designers of the interface made a mistake" is within the realm of possibility with this sort of thing (indeed, very much so).

35: There's a lot of variation, of course, but in my experience federal agencies tend to not be slickest at implementing IT of any sort.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 8:59 PM
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My initial reactions, in no particular order:

1. Oh look, an opportunity for me, a citizen, to offer my thoughts to my government!
2. Responding to this thing puts my house under the flight path of all them black helicopters.
3. The chance of any meaningful communication between me and the DHS is about the same as the chance that the message in Kafka's "A Message from the Emperor" will reach its intended recipient.

Not having the sense of self-worth necessary to believe 1 or 2, I'm going with 3.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:05 PM
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Prevent illegal export of weapons, funds, and other materials". Do they mean US exporting these things elsewhere, or do they actually mean import?

Whoopsie. I just went back and read this. My guess is they mean "Stop the sneaky immigrants from smuggling guns bombs missile technology back to their home countries."

It is about things leaving the US, in other words, but it isn't about the US government or US corporations are sending them.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:05 PM
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I'm doing it too, Witt! Although I can't find the place to award all the points to ending airport security.

My agency's public affairs office has (I think) been tempted by the new "blog" concept, and not yet decided whether they want to "Twitter". I look at the table and stay very, very still when people at my work discuss the idea of "blogs".


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:07 PM
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40.3 makes me wonder how you would design a study that measured whether a sense of efficacy based on prior experience changes people's willingness to participate in collective activities.

I was grousing to myself earlier this week about the antiwar protests and how bitter I still am that we could do nothing to stop the juggernaut of war. But I am more or less eternally, perkily, geekily pleased at the opportunity to offer feedback in forums such as this one.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:09 PM
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People in my workplace refer to the comments sections of the local newspaper sites as blogs. I hope that means I'm safe-ish.


Posted by: Not Prince Hamlet | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:10 PM
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Fwiw, I can promise you that someone reads everything everyone sends in. At least at my work, we do. I know this because I read every last comment on the Water Plan, several hundred pages of them, in order to parcel them out to the respective authors to respond to. After that, they get incorporated, ignored or mocked. But someone read them.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:11 PM
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Is it really possible that the DHS thinks it should be any sort of priority at all to deal with the export of weapons?

I certainly think it's something they should focus on. Nuclear weapon technology? Anti-aircraft weapons? Yeah, I'd rather those not get exported. And the illegal export of small arms to Mexico certainly has lots of blowback too.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:13 PM
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I've seen that, NPH. Is it petty if I want to correct people who call their comments either "blogging" or "posting"? No you didn't. You commented.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:13 PM
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47: You call that a blog post?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:14 PM
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People in my workplace refer to the comments sections of the local newspaper sites as blogs.

Hey, that's what newspaper writers over 45 years old seem to think blogs are, too! No wonder they are alarmed at the idea of being replaced by blogs.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:15 PM
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My mom frequently asks me if I did any blogging today. I've stopped jumping out of my skin and trusting that she just means reading online.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:16 PM
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CBP (part of DHS) is indeed responsible for overseeing exports. Nothing there about arms specifically, but Witt may well be right about what they actually mean. You might think this would be more the ATF's bailiwick, but apparently not.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:16 PM
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But talking about blogs is much more fun.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:18 PM
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(Is anyone else filled with the overwhelming wish that we could edit the suggestion headlines? I know it's the editor in me, but I could title their ideas so much more effectively than most of them!)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:22 PM
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51: A lot of it is about exporting technology, chemicals and parts that might possibly have military applications (broadly defined) rather than arms themselves. The definition of "exporting" can be pretty freaking broad as well, especially in the IT space.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:24 PM
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Holy Toledo:

The enemy within sleeper-cell terrorists have a question for Americans, 'How do you want your intestines cooked?' The terrorist fronts have capitalized on the tax exempt status as not-for-profit organizations under United States Internal Revenue Code Section 501 (c) 3.

Posted by: Wit | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:24 PM
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I looked at a few of the proposals in the discussion section and gave up.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:26 PM
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"Eliminate TSA's 3-1-1 rule" is getting lots of support (at least relative to the other proposals I've looked at). Not that I expect them to do anything about it.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:28 PM
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Where do you see that, essear?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:31 PM
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57: Although it seems to be from a federal government employee!


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:34 PM
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Here.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:34 PM
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||

Alan Greenspan is still a fuckwit.

|>


Posted by: dob | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:37 PM
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I wish I had time to craft a thoughtful rant about how absurd it is to act as if the state of America's "security" is determined by terrorists and illegal immigrants rather than things like over-reliance on automobiles or lack of proper planning for how to use natural resources and mitigate climate change.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:40 PM
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Good clarinetist, though.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:41 PM
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Thanks, essear. I voted for it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:41 PM
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I should know better than go to things like "Investigations of CIA agents by Attorney General serious error!"

Eric Holder and the President have done more in 8 months to underminde the security of the US than all of the previous administrations combined. If the US did the same thing during WW II the east coast would now be speaking German and the west coast Japanese.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:45 PM
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I lowered that one's score and labeled it "torture".


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:48 PM
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Good clarinetist, though.

Is he really? I've never heard him play.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:50 PM
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I have no idea. I just wanted to belittle him.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:50 PM
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By calling him a good clarinetist? That's highest praise.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:53 PM
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You'll notice I said nothing about his central banking skills.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:55 PM
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JIM LEHRER: Played the clarinet...

ALAN GREENSPAN: Clarinet, saxophone, flute, bass clarinet.

JIM LEHRER: Which one did you enjoy the most?

ALAN GREENSPAN: I actually enjoyed the clarinet the best, but I was a fairly good amateur, but a moderate professional. But what really did me in is I had, as an amateur, had to play next to Stan Getz. I was 16; he was 15. I decided, "Do I really want to be in this business?"

JIM LEHRER: Why, because he was so good?

ALAN GREENSPAN: Oh, my god.

JIM LEHRER: Was he really good?

ALAN GREENSPAN: And he was one of the really historic famous sax players. And the best economic decision I ever made in my life was to decide to leave the music business and go into economics


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:55 PM
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But teo doesn't like music.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:55 PM
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72 to 69.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:55 PM
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Hm, this one is kind of interesting. Says we should have a kind of Geneva Conventions for how agencies should act towards citizens during disasters. I wonder if s/he was thinking about the Blackwater guys after Katrina.

(Weird phrasing about people going "feral," but recalling a lengthy Alameida post on this very blog on that topic, I will refrain from comment.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:56 PM
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74: One of the comments on that thread reads, in part:

Our greatest threats are external--including terrorist networks sponsored by overseas organizations that we refuse to acknowledge. Sure we have some crazies running around (and always have)but they are not the predominant threat. Foreign countries and their surrogates that outspokenly hate America should be the focus.

This is pretty much precisely the opposite of my viewpoint. Sigh.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 9:58 PM
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Essear, this guy is talking about domestic threats, although he's a bit wordy and meandering.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:00 PM
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Not necessarily productive, but I do like the "disband homeland security" one.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:03 PM
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Okay, so Stan Getz is to blame for this whole mess, and he's been dead for almost 20 years. Well, nothing to be done, I guess.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:04 PM
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76: And goes on a crazy rant about supervolcanos, which suffers from at least one of the same problems as concerns about 9/11-like attacks or explosives on airplanes: over-emphasizing dramatic and shocking but rare or just plain unlikely events.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:04 PM
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I think that if I could play any instrument (like if I could bypass the learning process and just become on the instant a virtuoso), I would pick the bass clarinet.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:25 PM
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Or the viola.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:25 PM
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I used to play the bass clarinet. I ought to pick it up again.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:35 PM
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You ought to play it again.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:37 PM
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82-3: On the moping-along Unfogged music side project!


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:39 PM
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|| Hmm. I haven't seen any comments on this whole healthcare clusterfuck. (Taibbi's excellent article on it.) Did I miss that thread? |>


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:40 PM
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The bass clarinet has something to contribute to mopey music.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:41 PM
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83: Playing it would necessitate first picking it up. Which I can't do, because I don't have one of my own, and fucking hell they're expensive.

84: I'm still holding out hope that I can make my modest contribution. As ever, I blame my children.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:44 PM
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People in my workplace refer to the comments sections of the local newspaper sites as blogs. I hope that means I'm safe-ish.

Just let neb out you. It works beautifully.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:48 PM
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THAT WAS AN ACCIDENT!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:50 PM
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89: So was I, but you know, I'm still here and it still happened.

And you should pick up the viola. It's a beautiful instrument. My step-father plays, and I like it so much more the violin.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:53 PM
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Impossible.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:53 PM
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more than the violin.

I think I'm going to ban myself.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:54 PM
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(But before I do, I should say that 90 sounds much more cantankerous than I meant it. I bear no ill will towards nosflow.)


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:57 PM
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85: Ah, is that available online now? I went into half-a-dozen stores this past weekend looking for it, and when I did "succeed" they only had the next issue. And when did RS go to the more standard size? If it as 5 years ago, I quit.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:57 PM
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91 -> 89. But my ill will is more than balanced by my goodwill.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 10:59 PM
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My step-father plays, and I like it so much more the violin.

Yes. C-string >> E-string. I say this as someone who played the violin, once upon a time. But the violas only rarely got good parts in an orchestra.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:24 PM
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On the other hand, Ligeti's viola sonata is beautiful.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:27 PM
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As are Berio's compositions for viola.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:28 PM
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But the violas only rarely got good parts in an orchestra.

Certainly true. My step-father was given the viola as his parents created a family quartet of piano, cello, and violin. He was the youngest, so no choice in the matter.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:28 PM
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I wonder if music could at all be transcribed from the cello to the viola. Say, perhaps, Bach's Chaconne in D minor. Oh wait, that was for the violin originally. (I just know it by the piano version.)


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:31 PM
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Plus violas get so many great jokes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:32 PM
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I wonder if music could at all be transcribed from the cello to the viola.

If I'm not horribly mistaken (always possible!), the cello's strings are precisely the same as the viola's, but one octave lower. So things translate very directly.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:35 PM
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On the other hand, Ligeti's viola sonata is beautiful.

This is not among the Ligeti that I've heard, as far as I can remember. I'll seek it out.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:37 PM
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Essear is correct.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:38 PM
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If I'm not horribly mistaken (always possible!), the cello's strings are precisely the same as the viola's, but one octave lower.

That was my belief as well, but I am notoriously unreliable on such matters.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:39 PM
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Speaking of that Chaconne, it appears there are no good performances of the original violin version on youtube. Oh wait, there's one with Isaac Stern. Nice.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:43 PM
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Still, it really pushes the envelope of what the violin can do.


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09- 8-09 11:53 PM
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That's it, folks. G'night. *shuts, locks doors to Unfogged*


Posted by: paranoid android | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 12:15 AM
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re: 106


There are a lot of guitar versions of the chaconne as there's a famous arrangement by Segovia. It is, obviously, bastard hard to play but playing it on the guitar does mean that some of the counterpoint can be done properly. It's also pretty hard to find good videos of it on youtube.

This guy, I've never heard of, but I quite like his performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey5_FFvDucA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSEd6cEeZ9w

There's a couple of minor flubs, but it's still quite nice.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 1:08 AM
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In the first video his family name is misspelled. Gyan Riley is Terry Riley's son.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 8:47 AM
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Gyan Riley (gtr), Lukas Ligeti (dr), and Markus Stockhausen (tp) could form an interesting band with the same instrumentation as Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 8:57 AM
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Cute!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 9:19 AM
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re: 111

Heh, The Tiny Bell Trio are good, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09- 9-09 9:57 AM
horizontal rule