Too much.
You're Facebook friends with your students? I can barely stand to be Facebook friends with my classmates.
I'm not on Facebook much, and I like seeing what they're up to after they graduate. This student is a sophomore, though. But yeah. I kind of enjoy being on Facebook with them.
I'm old for being appalled at her misogyny? It's just so unprompted. I read his lyrics as being sweet and intimate.
The next part of the lyrics go:
"And oh she's playing games now.
And I figured it out now that we're
Now that we're closer.
Two kids, one love.
Three kids if we make it up."
I'm not totally sure it's misogynist to object to girls playing that kind of game. But then, I'm a mom who's taught her teenage son to sing "but I'm so needy and pathetic, probably I'm a stalker" to Taylor Swift's "You Belong With Me" so possibly I'm a bad judge. Or maybe I'm misreading the lyrics. (Those lyrics, not the Taylor Swift lyrics. That song creeps me out.)
Wait, are you kidding? The girl who commented wasn't just objecting to girls playing games. She said "slap the bitch with a remote".
Oh jesus, Unfogged shows up quickly in Google searches. It's already one of the top links for that song lyric. All of a sudden I think I should google-proof this.
I think you're reading a ton of extra context into a sarcastic, throwaway punchline.
If you go back and google-proof something, how long does it take Google to forget the old link?
I am standing my ground here. I really think it takes a bit of self-hatred to make that comment.
I hope someone really eloquent comes along and gets my back before I get talked out of my gut reaction.
In re: the google-proofing, it probably wouldn't come up as the first result for somebody who wasn't logged in. Google search uses your history if you're currently logged into a google account, so you'd expect unfogged to figure more prominently.
You don't need a compulsion to kill babies to make dead baby jokes.
And then the bear says "you didn't come here to change the channel, did you?"
13: It's on the front page when I use a different browser, in which I'm not logged in to gmail.
12: Would someone uneloquent do? The idea that assaulting a woman violent is supposed to be funny is inherently misogynist.
12: THAG SAYS GO WITH GUT
You don't need a compulsion to kill babies to make dead baby jokes.
But I think something else is going on here. The male student is a popular, good-looking kid. I think that she likes the student, has a degree of identification with the subject of the lyrics, the girl moving in and whispering, and she detests herself/the subject, and so she makes a joke at her own expense about needing to be whacked into shutting up.
I wasn't reading domestic violence into her line, but more "run screaming from girls who lie about birth control." If you think she's literally saying that he should hit his girlfriend with a heavy-duty inanimate object, than yeah, that sucks. .
To be totally vulnerably honest, it's the type of joke I might have made in my early twenties, and the explanation in 19 would have been what was going on. Part of my strong visceral negative reaction was doing the thing where you recognize a piece of yourself in whatever you're reacting to.
21: i don't get that she's lying about birth control from the lyrics. There's sex involved, and I don't know what kind of pregnancy reference "Three if we make it up" means. But she's not lying about birth control. And the whole song is just kind of that nonsensical in love must be dreaming mumbo-jumbo.
22: To be totally vulnerably honest, it's the type of joke I might have made in my early twenties, and the explanation in 19 would have been what was going on.
At the same age, when a female friend confided her boyfriend had done something awful, did you respond back with 'You should kick him in the nuts'? Did you mean that literally?
max
['Or were you kidding?']
At the same age, when a female friend confided her boyfriend had done something awful, did you respond back with 'You should kick him in the nuts'?
I'm curious to hear HG's response. Me, no, that's not how I would have responded. My stereotype is that that's more a guy speech pattern. But I also think the gender switch makes a difference in the culture we're living in.
I hope someone really eloquent comes along and gets my back before I get talked out of my gut reaction.
I don't know the song reference, and I gather that there's something about the idea that they actually had sex and they did not use birth control, and they had a misunderstanding about who was providing that?
I also need to google those lyric, I guess, as I didn't get the "did something awful" part. 25 was me.
26, 27: I really doubt the comment had anything to do with the rest of the song.
At the same age, when a female friend confided her boyfriend had done something awful, did you respond back with 'You should kick him in the nuts'? Did you mean that literally?
This is totally different because of "confided her boyfriend had done something awful". Sure, then speak hyperbolically. The thing that's shocking to me is that this reaction is to a line about some girl whispering to a boy.
If a friend confided to me that her boyfriend had leaned over and whispered "I thought I told you"? In the context of romantic mumbo-jumbo? It would be totally, totally bizarre to say "You should kick him in the nuts" and you would come off like you hated all men.
Song lyrics are so deep. And I have promises I have to keep. I've slept, and I've wept, and I've crept away, without a peep.
28: Since I don't know what the song is, and am disinclined to pursue the matter if it won't be simply explained here in short terms, all I see is the "slap the bitch" part of the comment Heebie quoted. The content doesn't really matter: it's the language.
The thing that's shocking to me is that this reaction is to a line about some girl whispering to a boy.
I've been a little bit confused up until now, because this seems to be saying something more specific than the objection at 17, which would apply to your garden variety Lil' Kim verse.
So it's specifically that the violent reaction is directed at an expression of romantic namby-pamby, rather than just that violent language is being directed at another female that gets you the misogynistic self-hatred?
The thing that's shocking to me
Shocking? Seriously? I'm not just trying to be a dick here, honest, but the sweet set-up, over-the-top sarcastic response is such a standard joke format that you can find dozens of examples on any greeting card rack.
The idea that assaulting a man violent is supposed to be funny is inherently misanthropist.
The thing that's shocking to me is the shocker.
Ned, you're not helping.
Song lyrics are so deep.
Usually not, but people the age of heebie's students often take them that way. And taking that interpretation of them at least somewhat seriously isn't silly, I would say.
Also:
"Two kids, one love.
Three kids if we make it up."
I heard the second line as "who cares if we make it up?", which makes a whole lot more sense to me. I didn't get any sort of "lying about birth control" vibe from the song.
M/tch is out to ruin my fun. Boo.
The shocker was itself shocked by the Roman Chin Rest, so shocking is it in its application.
Shocking? Seriously?
Yes. I don't know why. But I read stupid college shit all the time, and I was taken aback that this response followed such a freaking innocuous line. Maybe it just set weird with me.
39: You could move a little closer and whisper to him.
39: I'm just trying to drive traffic to my blog, SB.
I've been a little bit confused up until now, because this seems to be saying something more specific than the objection at 17, which would apply to your garden variety Lil' Kim verse.
Right. Garden variety Lil' Kim crap is misogynistic, but wouldn't shock me, because it's well-worn territory. Something about this slap-a-bitch as a response to a rather sweet innocuous line is what shocked me.
I'm so glad I looked up "Roman Chin Rest". Thanks, Urban Lexicographers, for that lovely image.
Unfogged is off the front page of Google results though, so phew, that's good.
Google search uses your history if you're currently logged into a google account, so you'd expect unfogged to figure more prominently.
This is weird. Why would I want a search to turn up the sites I already know about? Isn't that exactly what I don't want?
followed such a freaking innocuous line
That's how shock comedy works, except that most people don't shock much any more. So, comment #2.
41: I don't know the context (the song) at all, but the response is freaky to me as well.
Actually, when I saw the Joan River's roast about a month ago, that was the first time in a long time when I was actually shocked by shock-comedy. One comedienne, who was awesome but I don't know her name, had this joke:
"Joan Rivers is so old that her vagina has a separate entrance for black cocks."
My eyes nearly bugged out of my head, but I thought it was hilarious.
My stereotype is that that's more a guy speech pattern. But I also think the gender switch makes a difference in the culture we're living in.
Observation 1: Last year I noticed I was using a lot of pretty violent language ("I just wanted to strangle him," when I was mad about something) and to train myself out of it, put a jar on my desk to put spare change in every time I said something similar. I was not particularly worried that I was about to escalate from words to actions, but I was trying to raise my own awareness of how often I was using those words.
Observation 2: Not that long ago, I was out with a man who used three different extremely violent descriptions during the course of the evening -- along the lines of "I was ready to throw him down the stairs," except even slightly more specific. This made me sufficiently uncomfortable that I could not picture feeling safe if I were ever to have a (verbal) argument with him, and I decided not to see him again.
Hypocrite? Poor reader of others' risk for escalating to violence? Accurate distinction-maker? You got me.
46: Search is weird. Now that I have the keys to a blog, I will frequently search the terms that lead people to our joint in order to see how far down you have to go before you get sent our way by "polar bear monologue the informant" or "is jenji kohan an atheist?" It's a lot of google pages down! Who are these people who, not satisfied by the first six pages of results for "norman siegel sex offenders", keep going until they get to our humble abode?
I will say this: we are rapidly becoming the go-to for inquiring minds to whom the fangs on True Blood don't look right.
I don't think a lack of female solidarity is exactly the same thing as self-hatred.
And in any case the comment can be read as a dig at guys.
Just because, a pop song that I like about an accidental pregnancy.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP that I would be distinctly surprised by that comment.
I don't think a lack of female solidarity is exactly the same thing as self-hatred.
But it's close.
46
This is weird. Why would I want a search to turn up the sites I already know about? Isn't that exactly what I don't want?
I often use google to attempt to find pages I have visited before.
Oh James, you are the ultimate contrarian.
I often use google to attempt to find pages I have visited before.
Oh James, you are the ultimate contrarian.
In this particular area, he has a *lot* of company. If I were designing a search engine, I would definitely err on the side of assuming people were interested in returning to domains or search results they'd clicked on already.
29: This is totally different because of "confided her boyfriend had done something awful". Sure, then speak hyperbolically. The thing that's shocking to me is that this reaction is to a line about some girl whispering to a boy.
That's why I was asking you because I don't really get what he was comminicating with the lyric there, so I don't know how to take what she said in context. (It might, for instance, be an injoke of some sort.)
If a friend confided to me that her boyfriend had leaned over and whispered "I thought I told you"? In the context of romantic mumbo-jumbo? It would be totally, totally bizarre to say "You should kick him in the nuts" and you would come off like you hated all men.
Agreed. I was picking up on your visceral reaction, which suggests you're projecting.... (wait for it) which means you might be misreading it, or in fact you might be correctly picking it up. But I can't say whether I check you on that or not.
I can say though that I would not be the least surprised if 'I have the self-esteem of a glass of water' is something sultrygirl would say. (When I was that age, I would've been, but not now.)
max
['She might have been trying to impress him with her manliness.']
I don't think a lack of female solidarity is exactly the same thing as self-hatred.
I have to say: saying "slap the bitch with a remote" doesn't seem like mere lack of female solidarity, James. Your mileage may vary, of course.
25, 27: I also need to google those lyric, I guess, as I didn't get the "did something awful" part. 25 was me.
I was totally guessing at the context from the comments here. I really don't know how to take it, but I have certainly heard similar comments from women before. (Women a bit younger than HG, actually.) Some of it was the low self-esteem, some of it was just trying to fit into that whole hip hop bragging thing that the boys tend to emulate.
max
['It's actually mild for that setting.']
I find this whole thing pretty ugly, actually. I can leave room for the possibility that the commenter quoted in the OP is a young chick either out to impress or making a seriously inside joke. Otherwise, I don't see the need to debate it.
some of it was just trying to fit into that whole hip hop bragging thing that the boys tend to emulate.
Look, if you want those boys off your lawn, Max, why not just tell them directly?
I was thinking that "out to impress" thing was maybe what James neant by lack of solidarity. That willingness to play the role of "one of the guys," not like those other women.
65: Maybe his milkshake brings all the boys to the yard?
66 is how I would interpret the quoted incident.
No idea what's meant by the quoted lyrics, though.
66: Yes, I know what James probably meant.
69: sorry not to have added value, then. Off to swim bed.
This won't be the super-articulate argument she was hoping for (because it's late and AB will hit me with a remote if I don't get to bed), but HG is totally right. Even without any added context, it's just a hateful thing to say. In fact, the only way I'd buy it being unhateful would be if there were some context explaining it (eg, it's the next line of the song, or this girl herself once hit the guy with a remote to shut him up).
71: I dispute your first sentence, but anyway: pleasant dreams.
65: Look, if you want those boys off your lawn, Max, why not just tell them directly?
I have. I have listened to a bunch of hardcore suburbanite white children of privilege make with gang sign and the racist jokes, and the talking shit about slapping up the hos. Punching did not ensue.
max
['I seriously considered it though.']
Sorry, 69 came off as harsh, but was directed primarily in exasperation at James. I just meant that yes, I get that the comment was likely an attempt to act as one of the boys, and this doesn't necessarily constitute a lack of solidarity with women.*
I thought that was all kind of obvious: women engage in that kind of self-deprecation all the time. Hence my impatience.
* unless you define solidarity with women in a very specific way, one which bears discussion, though not necessarily here.
I thought that was all kind of obvious
Then do please forgive us.
This is bordering dangerously close to a feminism! argument! which isn't a good idea around this place.
78: Um, I'm not trying to bait you, but you seem to be pretty unpleasantly dismissive in this thread. What's got you all worked up?
75
Sorry, 69 came off as harsh, but was directed primarily in exasperation at James. I just meant that yes, I get that the comment was likely an attempt to act as one of the boys, and this doesn't necessarily constitute a lack of solidarity with women.*
This is not what I meant. It would constitute a lack of solidarity with other women but this is not necessarily self-hatred. Hence Di's "not like those other women".
I thought that was all kind of obvious: women engage in that kind of self-deprecation all the time. Hence my impatience.
This is not obviously self-deprecation.
79: I apologize for my unpleasant dismissiveness. There has been confusion throughout this thread on the context of the comment quoted in the OP. In the absence of that, people have been talking at cross purposes.
James is getting at something troublesome about women's seemingly self-deprecating remarks: by acting as one of the boys, some women mark space for themselves as a certain kind of woman. James apparently wants to say that this is a legitimate space. This is a huge argument in feminist circles, and even in not so feminist ones. We women are supposed to accept those women who refer to themselves as bitches, and speak of other women that way. I have trouble with it.
That's what got me worked up.
81: No worries.
We women are supposed to accept those women who refer to themselves as bitches, and speak of other women that way. I have trouble with it.
Your "We women" and "those women" formulations could both encompass a wide range of people and practices. Can you be more specific about which women you're referring to?
82: Not now. I'm off to bed. As I said, this is dangerous territory.
81
James is getting at something troublesome about women's seemingly self-deprecating remarks: by acting as one of the boys, some women mark space for themselves as a certain kind of woman. James apparently wants to say that this is a legitimate space. This is a huge argument in feminist circles, and even in not so feminist ones. We women are supposed to accept those women who refer to themselves as bitches, and speak of other women that way. I have trouble with it.
I am not saying it is legitimate, I am saying it is not necessarily indicative of self-hatred. You can despise a trait in other women without thinking you yourself have that trait. For example women who label other women as "sluts" but do not think of themselves as "sluts".
I did not take the comment as necessarily saying it would be ok to knock her around which arguably would indicate self-hatred.
I am not even convinced it is approving.
HG, pick up Calculus 6E and slap 1368 pages of sense into that bitch.
51.Obs 1: Yeah, me too -- I use jocularly violent language all the time, and I've noticed my kids do too, which makes me uncomfortable. I should back off on that.
It's that goddamn Harry Potter fellow. I'd kick him right in the neck if I met him.
No, I'm just kidding. It's video games. Banned!
This morning I awake with a more well-formed argument, but it is too large to fit in the margins the time before I have to go teach.
My take on this is similar to Apo's: without knowing anything else about the young woman, the remark sounds more like the kind of hyperbolic sarcasm characteristic of twenty-something Facebook users than evidence of profound self-loathing. It's vulgar humor; it's rude and boorish, but in the context of the remark, not evidence of any deep misogyny.
On the other hand, before this, I was blessedly unaware of "I Mu/st Be Dr/ea/ming." God, that song is awful. Now that I've heard it, I want to slap someone with a remote.
God, most annoying thread since Mean Old Read Is Hurtin Mah Feelings. Standpipe tried to show youse all the path away from earnest debate, and lo, you did not heed. You did not heed! Woe to the humorless! Minus X*Y/Z Internets (where X is the number of comments earnestly dissecting the gender dynamics of thirteen anonymous words, Y is the number of comments bitching at someone for pointing out how annoying this is, and Z is the number of comments referencing Li'l Kim lyrics)! Saga-rrific fail! Your failures, let me type at you about them! I've a mind to drag dsquared back here just to slap all you people with a remote.
But yeah... the slapping with a remote. You know what strikes me about that comment? Who slaps people with a remote? What? Since when is that an object you slap someone with? Is this poor girl going around trying to deploy her Wii remote in fights? I think someone may need to have a Conversation with her about this.
You know what it reminded me of? Celebrities who hit people with cell phones, also an ineffective weapon.
DS arrives to carry the dismissive torch! Thank goodness.
93: No need to thank me, citizen. Heroism is its own reward.
94: Amusing in that article: the one girl getting charged with "assault with a dangerous weapon" for throwing a cellphone. Doesn't an object have to have demonstrated itself dangerous at least once before it can be the basis of a charge like that?
Apparently the BlackBerry is, however, nothing to fuck with as a melee weapon. Either that or Foxy Brown is the Bas Rutten of BlackBerry combat.
Ok, here goes:
Disclaimer: I do not want to overstate this. People have many different components, and no component is always expressed. Young girls are not always behaving as described below, but it's a component of their internal life.
Feminist consciousness tends to be a binary in young girls: you either buy into the patriarchy wholesale, or you suspect something is rotten in Denmark. (I didn't.) The latter type is rare around here. Plus the sultry photo, and I make a safe bet that this girl is not some grrrrl. (I wasn't.)
Next. If you are a young not-feminist, and you have been bombarded with the message that your worth is your sex appeal, then you don't see a problem with that message. (I didn't.) (Sex appeal is very different from the feminist-thirty-something owning your sexuality stuff.)
Next. Young girls who buy into the sex appeal thing are deriving their worth from other people's perception of them. And winning other people's approval is a rigged game containing infinitely many hot young girls. You see it as a zero-sum game. You loathe the other participants (at some level, not totally) for taking some of the spoils. (Again, of course you cherish your friends. People have many different parts. This is one part common in young women.)
Therefore, a great percentage of girls will have a degree of self-loathing. If this is a widespread phenomenon, then it is trivial to speculate that it's present here.
God, most annoying thread since Mean Old Read Is Hurtin Mah Feelings.
Oh, fuck you.
Here's you: "People have vulnerabilities that I don't share is SO FUCKING BORING! Gag me now!"
Oh my fucking god. All these men telling me what young girls do not experience is about to make me have a goddamn temper tantrum.
99: I don't doubt at all that everything in 96 is an accurate description of widely-shared sentiments. I'm sure plenty of young girls do experience it. 8 still seems right.
But if we take self-loathing to be widespread, then I'm at least not being ridiculous for speculating that it's present here.
97: Oh, fuck you.
I am rubber, madame, and you? Glue. Totes glue.
I mean, I get what you're going for: this is a weird thing I would have said at that time of my life, this girl reminds me of the person I was then, and that was an expression of self-hatred from me so may possibly be from her. That's not hard to get.
But the rest of us have no information about the girl in question. None. Zero. Zilch. We have thirteen words and your say-so that her photo is "sultry," that's it. The Unfoggedtariat is awesome, Heebie Awesomer yet, but there is just no making an interesting conversation about the girl out of that. I'm sorry, there just isn't. We can have an interesting conversation about your experience and how that line brought it to mind, but we cannot have an interesting conversation about her. We are making up stories about an utter stranger.
Which, you know, not like that's never happened on Unfogged before, but there's limits. Surely there must be limits.
I felt very slapped down with a remote contol at the beginning of the thread, which conflicted with my feminist sensibilities.
We can have an interesting conversation about your experience and how that line brought it to mind, but we cannot have an interesting conversation about her.
But I post stuff about my own life and past all the time, and I presume it gets boring, so I try to thinly veil it by finding other people who exhibit what I do.
102: May I suggest Ctrl-W (or Cmd-W if you're a Mac user)? "This conversation is boring and you all are laaaame" rarely adds value. Just don't read it. Plenty of other threads that are, I'm sure, just gagging for your input.
I totes don't understand why anyone thinks 8 is a value-adding response to any of this. The girl didn't literally say "I am making a joke about domestic violence in the hopes that you will like me better than the girl who ostensibly whispered something in your ear because I am cooler and funnier and down with hatin on ladies". Okay. That could still be what's happening, even though that's not what the comment actually said, right?
104: But I post stuff about my own life and past all the time, and I presume it gets boring
I was about to reply "Heebie-on-Heebie is never boring," but that looked weird and dirty, so I decided not to say it, except I sort of am.
It was unwontedly harsh to compare this to the Read thread, which was much more annoying. I suppose I shall hit myself with a remote.
However, I also think it is highly likely that there is some inside joke at work. "Slap with remote" seems like an odd choice of punishment unless there is some other context.
The inside joke could be self hating and sexist too, but we'll probably never know. Unless Heebie starts adding "interpret these song lyrics" essay questions on her math tests.
||
Everyone has seen this, right? (Also, here, here.)
"This introduction gives the history of evolution, a timeline of Darwin's life, Hitler's undeniable connections to the theory, Darwin's racism, his disdain for women, and his thoughts on the existence of God."
Coincidentally, I saw Fireproof recently. It's not a very good movie.
Now carry on with the misogyny talk.
|>
Erm.
I kind of think 8 and similar were sorta value adding (while not really phrased in a usefully engaging way) because the original post did have a bunch of skipped steps. I mean, I'd read the girl's comment as something that only makes sense in a culture where it's a background assumption that men want to hit women in response to affectionate overtures, and that this is kind of harmlessly funny (this is awkwardly phrased and kind of wrong, but I'll leave it for now). But like DS, I can't go from there to a diagnosis of what the girl's thinking on any individual level -- all I've got is that she's a resident of a screwy culture.
So without 8 and similar, we wouldn't have gotten 96, which is more interesting that the original post. Although I'm still not sure I can buy into it. This, particularly:
Feminist consciousness tends to be a binary in young girls: you either buy into the patriarchy wholesale, or you suspect something is rotten in Denmark. (I didn't.) The latter type is rare around here. Plus the sultry photo, and I make a safe bet that this girl is not some grrrrl. (I wasn't.)
You can be pretty darn consciously feminist as a teenager (and an adult) (I was, and am) and still be very much a part of the patriarchy, in that thoughts and jokes that accept patriarchy as a norm are natural to you (I was and am).
While I don't quite get it without a full context, the comment is a joke. And I could see myself making, or at least considering, a joke that patriarchy-based, easily, despite being a conscious feminist.
Aren't "one-of-the-guys" comments at the expense of generic women automatically misogynistic?
If you're misogynistic and female, doesn't that force self-loathing? I really think you can't ever fully "other away" a group that you're part of.
Don't offhand throwaway jokes deeply reflect who we are and what we find funny?
Wasn't this like the best post ever? Thank you.
No, maybe, no, and every post is like a snowflake.
You're welcome.
Don't offhand throwaway jokes deeply reflect who we are and what we find funny?
Well, I'd say more that they reflect how we were raised, and the culture we live in. It's really hard to choose to change your cultural underpinnings in a way that gets deep enough to change what's funny to you.
While I don't quite get it without a full context, the comment is a joke.
I'm working on the assumption that there is no more context. That she is not talking about additional song lyrics, or background joke, or anything. Maybe I'm wrong, but then 8 might be right, and that would be terrible.
I realized the quote I pulled in 109 doesn't really mean much without any context. I suppose this would have been a better quote to excerpt:
In time for the 150th anniversary of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species, a major Christian ministry is publishing an edition of the book that features an introduction rebutting the theory of evolution and making the case for intelligent design. The ministry, Ray Comfort's Living Waters, is distributing tens of thousands of free copies on college campuses nationwide.
I thought 102 (and 110) did add value. But all the "8 to n" posts kind of annoyed me- repeating the same thing (You're reading too much into this. Problem solved.) over and over seems dismissive. The kind of help we all can do without.
Oh well. It shocked me when I read it. Also I've got a ton of posts backed up but now I'm haunted by the 40 comments and a mule notion.
115: But there can't really be no more context, because she knows the guy. So it's either "that men want to hit women in response to affectionate overtures, and that this is kind of harmlessly funny" and "you're such a guy, we all know that if someone really leaned in to whisper to you you'd hit her with the remote"; or maybe "you're such a SNAG, posting something sappy like that, a real guy would hit her with the remote" or something. You can get (I think) to "men wanting to hit women for being sappy is normal and funny" as something that's in her head, but knowing that that's in her head doesn't, I think tell you much more about her. There's stuff like that in my head, coexisting with all the other, more chosen, stuff.
I'm haunted by the 40 comments and a mule notion.
It may take effort to get 40 comments out of "Goober Notorious."
No, maybe, no, and every post is like a snowflake.
Oh BULLSHIT. The degree to which the joke here qualifies as being at the expense of generic women is debatable, but if I make a comment based on the premise that even though women as a rule are stupid/pathetic/whorish/crazy/needy/dismissable/whatever, ha ha! I recognize that about them and am on your side, boys! then it is indeed automatically misogynist. How could it not be?
I'm offended at the implication (repeated twice now) that 98 didn't add value. A problem was posed and a solution was offered. The problem was then reframed (in 96), and the value-add of 98 was recognizing that the prior solution held.
a comment based on the premise that even though women as a rule are stupid/pathetic/whorish/crazy/needy/dismissable/whatever, ha ha!
There's nothing the comment to suggest this premise "as a rule".
The ministry, Ray Comfort's Smuckles' Living Waters, is distributing tens of thousands of free copies on college campuses nationwide.
Strike throughs make the world a better place.
119: I thought the context was just: sappy stuff is stupid, and I'm going to express my dislike of sappy stuff with a violent metaphor that is a play off of the lyrics you just posted.
Or, not nothing to suggest that. But not enough to conclude it.
123: Well, I see your implied offense, and raise you an offense of my own and a further implication, this one both scurrilous and so carefully concealed in the subtext of this comment that you'll never unearth it. But if you did, boy would you be offended.
I didn't mean to offend you. Would you like me to help you rake your lawn and/or break your toys?
105: Just don't read it.
I think it was Aristotle who said that originally, wasn't it? Marcus Aurelius, maybe? Whomever it was, it's a profound insight and I thank you for sharing it.
I was about to come back to the "feminist consciousness is binary in young girls" point, which is interesting, and I see LB has beaten me to it. I also kind of want to say this is wrong, which is a little harder for me to do never having been a young girl except for that one really weird dream that involved balloon animals and Telly Savalas, about which the less said the better.
But I do have some external evidence to go on in terms of female friends who do more or less fit the mold that I think Heebie is thinking about, people whom I couldn't call "feminist" (and who would reject the label, mainly because they seem to mentally associate it with Dirty Fucking Hippies), and whom are (or at least have until recently been) unequivocally part of the sex-appeal-obsessed subculture Heebie describes, but of whom I also couldn't say they have no feminist consciousness. So, for example, they are people who could plausibly make a joke likes we're observing in the original post and have great sport in making fun of the bad haircut of Girl X across the bar, but could not plausibly be expected to look at a guy beating / intimidating his girlfriend and conclude that she must have deserved it.
Wait, making fun of bad hair is unfeminist?
Damn.
So, for example, they are people who could plausibly make a joke likes we're observing in the original post and have great sport in making fun of the bad haircut of Girl X across the bar, but could not plausibly be expected to look at a guy beating / intimidating his girlfriend and conclude that she must have deserved it.
I agree with this. I would say that the abuse example is so well-defined in our example that being anti-domestic abuse does not preclude misogynistic self-loathing.
Also I think a fair amount of women just outgrow the misogynistic self-loathing, without necessarily becoming feminists. But young girls I think tend to be more split into camps.
(Unless you have really good hair, I guess.)
well-defined in our example culture.
one really weird dream that involved balloon animals and Telly Savalas
Last night I dreamt about giant ants (which had dog-like characteristics, such as causing balls) that ran a restaurant serving bolognese!
Causing balls!! My Freudian slip: let me show you it.
Chasing balls.
Is it possible that the joke here is not "I'm one of the guys, smack the bitch up, ha ha" but instead lies in the juxtaposition of ridiculously sappy song lyrics with violence?
When I was in college someone asked me what the difference between a Jew and a pizza was. To make things worse this guy was Jewish. Should I attach a Facebook profile picture so that we can make sense of his psychological state?
giant ants (which had dog-like characteristics, such as causing balls)
What??
My Freudian slip: let me show you it.
This construction never fails to crack me up. Whenever something on the computer is labelled "My Documents" or "My Sent-Mail" I always mentally tack on "Let me show you them/these".
People without cats (or giant dog-like ants in their dreams) must live sad and sorry lives.
I think it was Aristotle who said that originally, wasn't it? Marcus Aurelius, maybe? Whomever it was, it's a profound insight and I thank you for sharing it.
Gosh, you're welcome! You know, it's nice to be appreciated once in a while. Nothing approaches the satisfaction of being recognized for making just the right comment at just the right time.
Although, I think you meant "whoever," not "whomever."
automatically misogynist. How could it not be?
Sometimes humor works by plays on words and/or confounding expectations and isn't actually reflective of a deep sociocultural agenda.
Is it possible that the joke here is not "I'm one of the guys, smack the bitch up, ha ha" but instead lies in the juxtaposition of ridiculously sappy song lyrics with violence?
Yes, there's a great possibility that this is what's going on. Especially since nearly everyone else has read it this way.
When I was in college someone asked me what the difference between a Jew and a pizza was. To make things worse this guy was Jewish. Should I attach a Facebook profile picture so that we can make sense of his psychological state?
This supports my interpretation, though. Sure, it's a throwaway joke. There's also a well-documented history of self-hating Jews, so maybe that does play a role. My family: let me show you it.
135: I'm offended at the implication that I have bad hair. And wracked with insecurity and self-doubt. Does my hair look that bad from where you're sitting?
133: I want to keep picking at this. The kind of joke we're talking about is undeniably about misogyny -- you need misogyny as a background assumption to make it work. But I think getting from a woman having made a misogynistic joke to worrying that she's suffering from misogynistic self-loathing, without more, is a big jump. There's a lot of misogynistic background noise in our culture, and someone slipping into that pose for a wisecrack doesn't necessarily spend all their time there.
I, for one, didn't even think her joke was especially funny. Laydeez.
But I think getting from a woman having made a misogynistic joke to worrying that she's suffering from misogynistic self-loathing, without more, is a big jump.
If the self-loathing is sufficiently pervasive, this becomes a much smaller jump, though. I know I can't really conclude anything about this person.
Sometimes humor works by plays on words and/or confounding expectations
Yes,
and isn't actually reflective of a deep sociocultural agenda.
No. You need the deep sociocultural background for any joke to make sense. It may not be important to the joker, but it's going to be there.
I should note that I'm re-reading Reviving Ophelia for that stupid Book Club Class that my school offers the Honors Students.
133: I wouldn't say misogynistic self-loathing is a binary state either. But as nice as it would be to think that it takes no special courage or insight to come out against domestic abuse in our day and age, in fact there are a lot of people who still react that way (which is to the "[girl] probably deserved it" way), not all of them men. So I'd say, roughly, that these girls have less than our age's maximum possible allotment of misogynistic self-loathing and more than its minimum allowable amount of feminism.
Sure, it's a throwaway joke. There's also a well-documented history of self-hating Jews, so maybe that does play a role.
Well I happened to know this person: he was actually a pretty talented comedian who would do anything for a laugh.
Facebook profile picture? Not especially helpful.
I am a very bad person for wanting to know the punchline of the Jew/pizza joke. Oh, god, no, I just thought a little harder and it's going to be something about ovens. I don't want to know it.
Well I happened to know this person: he was actually a pretty talented comedian who would do anything for a laugh.
Now you're just tossing out more Jewish cliches. (Still doesn't negate the self-loathing tradition.)
Facebook profile picture? Not especially helpful.
I bet he looks Jewish, though.
More seriously the profile photo contributes evidence when the nature of the self-hatred is the emphasis on appearance. Not so with anti-semitism.
Or, not nothing to suggest that. But not enough to conclude it.
This is why I said that the status of the actual comment in question was debatable. But Apo said "No" to "Aren't 'one-of-the-guys' comments at the expense of generic women automatically misogynistic?" not "Isn't this a 'one-of-the-guys' comment at the expense of generic women and therefore automatically misogynistic?"
155: It's very easy to google.
The point of slippage no doubt comes at "generic women" -- which I take to mean "women as a class, which some extra-worthy women can evade" but Apo may well have taken to mean "some women or other who aren't particularly well specified."
The joke is also misogynist because the guy is just assumed to be the one with the remote.
The pizza joke was told to me as part of a long run of horribly offensive jokes, most of which had nothing to do with Jews or the Holocausts. You know, sometimes you just don't tell that much about someone from a sentence.
You know, sometimes you just don't tell that much about someone from a sentence.
I've long conceded this point. I still don't think it's a ridiculous speculation. Also I'm impressed that your friend has concealed his anti-semitism from you so well.
I'm a Jew, so didn't feel very bad. I googled it.
I actually liked the one wikianswers gives (it's funnier):
A Jew is a human being whose beliefs reside in Judaism.
A pizza is a food usually made with bread, tomato sauce, and cheese (at the very least). Pizzas may have different core ingredients, and a wide variety of toppings.
The actual punch line is apparently "a pizza doesn't scream when you put it in the oven".
What is the joke alluded to in 15? Google isn't helping me.
167: The straight version of the joke is great.
a long run of horribly offensive jokes
I sometimes like telling those, in part because I think they clash with my generally rosy-cheeked, good-girl appearance. The problem is collecting enough of them that are funny besides the offensiveness.
The sweet older lady at the gym told us some horribly crude joke last night, but it wasn't funny except for the contrast with the teller, and that's not good enough.
The fact that heebie describes the "slap her with a remote" commenter as using a sultry picture makes a big difference. If she were at all butch or boyish or pixieish or other non-patriarchy-approved adjective, I'd totally say 140.1 - the joke is simply puncturing the mood of the the sappy, vapid pop love song, it exists in and might depend on a culture that often condones domestic violence but does not indicate anything about the commenter other than distaste for the lyrics, etc.
In college I knew a girl who I wouldn't be surprised to see make the remark in the mood heebie assumes. I knew another girl who I wouldn't be surprised to see make the remark in the mood 140.1 theorizes. To confuse things further, I could imagine her using a picture that might get called "sultry" at times, although that wasn't her overall personality.
Maybe she posted a sultry picture as a subtle mockery of sultry pictures, which would really confound things.
The point of slippage no doubt comes at "generic women"
There, and at "automatically".
"Your mom" comeback reaches the floor of the Senate Finance Committee.
175: Awesome. Also, Kyl is an idiot.
Oh, hmm, there's probably a Kyl's mom joke in there.
The sweet older lady at the gym
Hm. I wonder if she knows the old guy at Ogged's pool?
You don't need a compulsion to kill babies to make dead baby jokes.
Maybe, but it helps to love your work.
The joke is also misogynist because the guy is just assumed to be the one with the remote.
That is why the joke is funny, it makes the guy walk through a masculinity checklist:
1) hitting women= excessive
2) controlling remote= The statistics show that couples share control of the television, and not only that, but that women are more frequently in control of the remote than men.
3)posting boy band lyrics on myspace=?
=
I just found out about crabcore:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2009/jun/23/scene-and-heard-crabcore
>
An on topic review of Cougarville.
181: I have friends who feel very violently about this new supposed "crabcore" since that was the name of one of the early Moss Icon (I think) comps of Annapolis, MD area hardcore.
posting boy band lyrics on myspace=?
= you are so awesome that sultry women will make jokes about domestic violence to curry favor with your awesomeness.
182: I was tempted to say how much I loathe the term "cougar," but nah, forget it.
Also, I'm glad to see DS.
102: May I suggest Ctrl-W (or Cmd-W if you're a Mac user)? "This conversation is boring and you all are laaaame" rarely adds value. Just don't read it.
I do this! All the time! It works swell.
It makes my occasional comments a little bit random and contextless, but hey.
So, what are you guys talking about?
what are you guys talking about?
Google search, the Roman Chin Rest, and Darwin's connection to the Nazis.
138: I had a dream last night in which I and various people I sort-of know (like some members of the Unfogged FB group) were peacekeepers in Bosnia during the genocide. We were called into a lecture hall where the CinC informed us there was a severe shortage of toilet paper, and then some nebbish Japanese fellow gave us a lecture on how to most efficiently wipe our butts. Writing this I just realized that the CinC was Standpipe.
I am afraid to fall asleep now.
I am afraid to fall asleep now.
Sleep with leaves under your pillow.
I hate dreaming about Unfogged. The last time I recall it happening, there was something about Knecht's wife driving a VW bus painted with psychedelic hippie flowers, and my reaction was along the lines of: what are you doing here?
"It was hard for me at first to find words for why I hated -- simply hated -- "Cougar Town," the new Courteney Cox vehicle that debuted Wednesday night on ABC."
Start with the name. I actually winced when I saw this show advertised.
Also, I can't hear Cougar Town without thinking of The Terror of Tiny Town and now I can't get the image of Courteney Cox roping little Shetland ponies out of my head.
191: Sadly, I keep thinking John Cougar Mellencamp. I didn't think much of him until later in his career, when I saw a video of him playing acoustic guitar in some dusty by-the-wayside town with a bunch of older folksy dudes: it was terrific. Wonderful percussion. He gained my respect. So Cougar Town: oh, it is not what you wish it might be.
" ... Oh, I was born in a Cougar Town ..."
I once ran into John Mellencamp at a Fuddruckers. He very graciously let my friend take his picture right there by the condiments.
185: Likewise, tho not back for long, I fear. Life is crazy.
194: Well, crazy in a positive way, ultimately, I hope. I may write you, despite your dreadful correspondence-fu. Things are crazy here as well.
Refining my statement that feminism is a binary in young women:
I've read many things which treat "feminism is something that you wake up and it hits you like a ton of bricks one day" as conventional wisdom. Ie, that many women have an awakening-esque moment where they see the light where they were once blind.
Not all blind-states are necessarily equally blind to the patriarchy. (I was certainly well-aware and distressed over limited rights of women in other countries.) More specifically, there is a binary distribution on whether or not girls realize that the patriarchy impacts them, personally.
My mom likes to send me every reference to cougars she comes across. It's fairly annoying.
Oh my god, Di, that would make my blood boil.
Most of the time I hear the word "feminist" in real life is in the following construction: "I'm definitely not a feminist, but [statement of 100% agreement with basic feminist principles]".
Serious question: Why can't progressives turn perfectly normal words associated with reactionaries into epithets that people feel ashamed to be associated with? It seems so easy for reactionaries to make us ashamed of our words.
Because, see, I'm single. And over 30. I think she's just trying to show me how totes cool she is with it if I want to go sex up some young studs. Because she's hip to the scene and knows that's the way people in my generation roll.
Most of the time I hear the word "feminist" in real life is in the following construction: "I'm definitely not a feminist, but [statement of 100% agreement with basic feminist principles]".
Hypothesis: The difference between a feminist and an "I'm not a feminist but" is a basic sense of outrage.
200: This is a dynamic that has driven me batty repeatedly. Here, usually at Apo.
I'd rather make them stop turning our words into epithets than figure out how to do it in return, but I suppose that'd be good too.
Actually, come to think of it, "fundamentalist" turned into an epithet. It started out as a word people would cheerfully use to describe themselves, but no one (I think) does it anymore, and if you refer to people as fundamentalists rather than evangelicals (I think both terms have technical theological meanings, but in common use they mostly describe the same group) it's taken as evidence of hostility.
I'm not sure how that happened, though.
202: Depends on your milieu. Growing up in my liberal bubble, I had the luxury of growing up as a "feminist, of course". No particular outrage, just "sure, isn't everyone reasonable a feminist?" That didn't mean that everything in my environment was perfect from a feminist point of view, but the word wasn't negatively loaded at all.
A 40ish lady at the grocery store the other day was wearing a tight, black french-cut T-shirt with a gold lame-looking screenprinted cougar silhouette for the shirt's decoration.
Avocados and three expensive boxes of microwaveable food. Great hair, nice figure. I did not say nice boots.
202: I'm provisionally down with that hypothesis, though I'm not sure where it's going. It's not going in the "shrill." direction, is it? By which I mean that feminists are considered to be shrill (aka angry), I believe, while not-a-feminist-but provides more of an assurance that one has certain beliefs but will not become angry or annoyed for their sake, which is to say that they can be let go of if pressure is applied.
On the other hand, my mother was not-a-feminist-but, which meant that she was personally against abortion but supported a woman's right to choose.
though I'm not sure where it's going.
I was just navel-gazing and concluding that a sense of outrage was what triggered my personal conversion.
Why can't progressives turn perfectly normal words associated with reactionaries into epithets
The problem is that the epithets we already have feel so good to say and are so very apt that there is hardly need to use non-epithets as epithets. That feels lazy. Maybe the problem with progressives is that we know too many good words.
"I'm definitely not a communist, but [statement of 100% agreement with basic communist principles]".
Is that comprehensible? I don't really see much of a difference between the two statements.
Or "I'm definitely not an environmentalist, but [statement of 100% agreement with basic environmentalist principles]". Or "I'm definitely not a terrorist, but [statement of 100% agreement with basic terrorist principles]".
All these "-ists" and "-isms" imply (for many people) a level of activism, or at least ideological stridency, that some people aren't interested in claiming for themselves.
No, I've seen many "I'm not a feminist but..." who were perfectly outraged. That phrase can even come out during a fit of outrage. "I'm not a feminist, but I'll be damned if I'll let someone treat me like that in the workplace."
It is really just about the circles you travel in, and what associations they have given you with the word "feminist."
All these "-ists" and "-isms" imply (for many people) a level of activism, or at least ideological stridency, that some people aren't interested in claiming for themselves.
Ideological stridency, yes, but I think it's more that other people are those things. To be an -ist is to be a caricature.
209: Terrorist doesn't fit, because there are no terrorist principles -- it's a tactic, not an ideology. The other examples I've just never heard anyone say.
I would argue that there are "terrorist principles"--principles that accept terrorism as a legitimate tactic. But that argument would be a distraction, so let's just drop that example and move on.
I'm not a pharmacist, but I agree with pharmacist principles.
I'm not a doctor, but I play one on tv.
Maybe socialist work better than communist, which has too much of an affiliation with political-party. "I'm definitely not a socialist, but I believe there should be heavy redistribution of income."
"I'm definitely not an environmentalist, but I believe companies shouldn't be allowed to dump chemicals in our water."
Me too, if you stretch a point.
When people say to me "I'm not a terrorist, but . . . " I generally try to find a way to excuse myself from that conversation and/or bus.
216: Oh wait. I guess I technically am, too.
"I'm not a terroirist, but," is different in some ways, in some ways the same.
These would all be in contrast to something like: "I'm not a sadist, but I derive pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others". See the difference?
Maybe socialist work better than communist, which has too much of an affiliation with political-party. "I'm definitely not a socialist, but I believe there should be heavy redistribution of income."
Well, that's not exactly socialism without some collective ownership of the means of production, is it? That seems like someone who's right about not calling themselves a socialist.
"I'm definitely not an environmentalist, but I believe companies shouldn't be allowed to dump chemicals in our water."
This would be perfectly parallel, but I've just never heard anyone disavowing being an environmentalist in those terms. (Maybe right-wing outdoorsy people do? I know the term 'conservationist' is more hunter-friendly than environmentalist, and people use it to mean that they have nothing against killing Bambi but don't want to pave forests. But that's a real, albeit slight, ideological difference.)
220: I love saying that to my sister. "As a fellow doctor..." and watching her do a slow burn as she remembers seven years of residency.
Personally, I'm not a terrier-ist but I do think that all schnauzers should be given their own drinking fountains, bathrooms, and swimming pools, and kept awya from our women.
"Well, yes, I do occassionally suck cocks, but no, I don't consider myself a cocksucker."
It is really just about the circles you travel in
Not necessarily. I have traveled in feminist circles all my life and consider feminists allies. Here's where the road branches: there appear to be nearly as many different feminisms as there are feminists, and there's no way to contain them all within a coherent philosophy. What they have in common is a tendency, when examining social phenomena, to use the effects on and of gender relations as one's primary lens. Which is a perfectly valid and useful thing to do. It just isn't the lens I reach for instinctively or first, and that seems to be the only consistently present trait across the enormous spectrum of self-identified feminists.
I think what I'm saying is that feminism strikes me as more of a heuristic than a philosophy, and saying "I'm a feminist" is like having a carpenter declare that he's a hammerist or a sawist.
210: It is really just about the circles you travel in, and what associations they have given you with the word "feminist."
The negative associations may be with hairy-leggedness and bralessness and the like.
209: All these "-ists" and "-isms" imply (for many people) a level of activism, or at least ideological stridency, that some people aren't interested in claiming for themselves.
Good point! The idea is that people don't want to associate themselves with a set of beliefs? "I'm not an environmentalist, but" is just bizarre to me.
So the notion of subscribing to something that might be called an ideology has become suspect, is that it? Good work on the part of conservatives, there.
I don't get the point of this, except to point out that, hypothetically, people who contradict themselves are silly and might lack self-awareness.
"I'm not a terroirist, but," .
Does that mean you're only slightly pretentious about your wine-judging abilities?
And I can't believe I even re-entered this argument, and will now exit it.
I'm not a hammerist, but I wear hammer pants on TV.
I'm not a terroirist but I do detect the mineral deposits, earth, and sun of southern France in this here Boones.
My 228 was multiply pwned in various ways.
The other examples I've just never heard anyone say.
In the paper the other day there was a big story about a local creek that has been literally wiped clean of all life by an unknown pollutant. Some guy who lives along it said, "I"m no tree-hugger, but...."
Actually, "I'm no pacifist" works, too. Basically anything associated with DFHs.
229: People who contradict themselves are large! And contain multitudes!
236: People who contradict themselves are the luckiest people....
229: I think it is interesting to note what drives people to hypocrisy and what doesn't.
I've become a little bit of a saw-ist. On the last couple projects we've done, my sister and I used handsaw instead of a Skilsaw and found it easier than we thought setting up the powertool would be. If this continues to be true, I'm going to start making lots of broad statements about the obvious superiority of handsaws in all contexts.
If this continues to be true
If I get the crucial third confirmation of this observation the next time we do a project...
239: Have you tried sawing in a nail, yet?
I'm not a fascist, but weaklings who refuse to submit to my absolute control just chap my ass.
Look, Megan just did herself.
166: I've long conceded this point. I still don't think it's a ridiculous speculation.
I think you read in too much to it (per 8); I think your guess was somewhere in between very likely to be correct to almost certainly correct (per a bunch of other comments). So:
207: I was just navel-gazing and concluding that a sense of outrage was what triggered my personal conversion.
Applies to the OP as well.
228: So the notion of subscribing to something that might be called an ideology has become suspect, is that it?
'Islamofascist'.
max
['When you push the envelope far enough, you run out of envelope.']
239: Especially Japanese handsaws. They're a joy to use.
['When you push the envelope far enough, you run out of envelope.']
Doesn't it really just fall off the table?
235: Basically anything associated with DFHs.
When and how did this happen?? Seriously. I think at this point that the Vietnam War so traumatized the country's view of itself that it has gone through an identity crisis ever since, and decided somewhere along the line -- when? how? -- that the hippies, by now vastly exaggerated and distorted, were to be rejected entire. No kumbaya. No trust. No pacifism. No organics, tree-hugging, environmentalism. All bad.
What?
I'm not a hippie, I'm just dirty and fucking.
||
Today I accepted a job offer involving a 60% pay cut. I'm nervous about how well this is going to work out.
|>
Wow, no kidding. But you like it better?
I don't know. I sure hope so. I won't start for a few months.
No organics, tree-hugging, environmentalism. All bad.
Not anymore! There's money in it now. Still definitely no pacifism, though. (No money in it.)
Doesn't it really just fall off the table?
Right, and then you don't have any more. The floor is very far down. That's why having lots of envelopes is so important.
It's envelopes all the way down.
251: Woohoo! Really, it was easier than you'd think. You're younger than I am -- still chewing on your student loans, or recently finished? I did the switch simultaneously with paying off all our debt barring the mortgage, and that made it much easier.
I guess that's not really true: it involves relocation to a city that is supposed to be about 40% less expensive than here, so in real terms I think I'm only taking about a 25% cut. (Heebie, please check my math.)
And maybe with a job you like better you can put some weight back on.
still chewing on your student loans, or recently finished? I did the switch simultaneously with paying off all our debt barring the mortgage, and that made it much easier.
Oh, we've got boatloads of student loans (and no intention of paying them off a day ahead of time, since they're locked in for 30 years at a 1.875% interest rate). But I did pay off all our other debt other than student loans. (Which doesn't involve a mortgage, which is actualy debt we'll probably be taking on after we move.)
It will be tight, but I think we'll be fine.
260: hasn't worked for Steve Jobs.
I'm not a careerist, but I hope your new job is fulfilling, Brock.
And you couldn't ask for a nicer time to buy a house.
Government, or private do-gooderism? And moving back home, wherever that is, or an exciting new state?
Did you consult about your career move with your parasite symbiont?
I can't answer 266 without weeping tears of shame.
268: Quick, everyone get compasses and define the arc on which Brock's new location lies!
It is OK if you are moving into your parents' basement to be in-house council for Monsanto, Brock. You'll still have your internet friends.
Okay, Heebie, you've broken me: L/o/u/i/s/v/i/l/l/e/,/ /K/Y.
And 266: Not home. But much closer. And it's the same old private do-evilism that I do now. Just for a lot less money. (And fewer hours too, I hope.)
Juleps and bluegrass all around, then. I don't think we have a Kentuckyan here, do we?
Brock needs to Google proof it so that no one there knows he's coming.
Louisville is nice in that it's less than a day's drive from lots interesting places.
I can't tell if 276 was a straight compliment or a backhanded one, but I'm leaning toward the latter.
Brock needs to Google proof it so that no one there knows he's coming.
When Brock comes, he types "Louisville" in comments?
Yeah, a common reaction to telling people I live in Sacramento is an enthusiastic "Sacramento is an hour and a half from everything!". To which I think, "but I like actual Sacramento part".
279: Characters from fictional porn movies often have really weird kinks.
278: Just joshing, as I actually have never been outside of the Greyhound station in Louisville, so can't meaningfully comment on its attractions or lack thereof.
280: Reminds me of a quote in this LaTeX tutorial (no offense to certain commenters):
1 hr. to Bay Area, 2 hrs. to Lake Tahoe...UCD is centrally isolated
Yay Brock! Now just lose the private practice thing.
I broke Brock! But not with a brick.
Louisville, huh. Well, don't pronounce the s. It's a trick.
248: Doesn't it really just fall off the table?
Nope. When you are, saying pushing the edges of subsonic stability envelope, you can actually get to sonic speeds... which results in a drastic increase in vibration, which sorta tends to rip the plane apart. Unless you've got enough pookie to complete the phase transition to supersonic speeds. Or more concretely, back in the Korean war, American pilots would go into steep dives when they were giving chase to MiGs, and would blow past the sonic barrier. When the pilots attempted to level out at supersonic velocities, the wings would come off the plane. Oops. WHAM.
Since leveling out usually happened at a low altitude, the pilot usually wouldn't have time to make an orderly exit of the plane. Or a disorderly exit even. End of plane and pilot. (My Greatuncle Dean died in a similar way.)
max
['So, don't wanna push the envelope too far.']
wlel the first 3 seconds sound just like the replacemants so thats going to colour things
i listened as long as i could stand and can't figure out why this song is at all objectionable (other than banal emoness)
hm, i misunderstood the post, since i read it too fast, and assumed there was some connexion between the lyrics and comment. Upon rereading, i would have classified thsi as 'i dunno wtf she's talking about, but it is probably some reaction to an idiosynchratic reading of the mumbo-y lyrics.'
which seems like way to much work/subtext-parsing for a dumb comment on dumb lyrics. theres no ''there' there', even if any 'there' almost certainly has some patriarchal leanings.
or: even the vapid have complex inner lives, they just aren't very well correlated with reality
also: the dichotomy of
socialist:public ownership::capitalist:class of people who owns trains and wants to keep owning them
seems pretty worthless given current economic system of 401ks and mutual funds and managment mostly running things totally indepedent except for their todie board, and most inequality being from the breakout of high-income labour, not capital gains
or: the capitalists got a new name, gave the broader public sense of being 'owners', yet kept control and the income inequality. they also have more of a sense of having 'earned' their lucre,
Louisville has very cool red penguins.
227 gets me closer than I've ever come to understanding Apo's take on this whole issue. I think it finally makes sense to me now.
It is really just about the circles you travel in, and what associations they have given you with the word "feminist."
And also, how they are likely to react. If you think calling yourself an environmentalist is going to get you pushback or scorn from the rest of the table (because, say, you're not a vegetarian), you won't lay claim to that identity. If you think calling yourself a feminist is going to dramatically reduce the legitimacy that other people grant to your viewpoint and concerns, you won't lay claim to that identity.
So it isn't *just* about what associations you have in your head. It's about the social and practical consequences of the fact that other people have certain associations.
293 is correct. If you are trying to make a point it's a pain in the ass to have to spend five minute arguing over the definition of a word, especially since the argument is likely to get quite hostile and unpleasant, as you are challenging people's stereotypes, and they don't like that.
It may be totes obnoxious to reopen this thread, but today I awoke with thoughts on Apo's Why-I'm-Not-A-Feminist.
What they have in common is a tendency, when examining social phenomena, to use the effects on and of gender relations as one's primary lens.
First, tons of non-feminists do this. Practically everything any woman does is attributed to them being female by, say, the media. Or my students. Etc.
Second, most of the feminists around here do not do this. This post notwithstanding.
(Third, it's kind of condescending and amounts to saying "what feminists have in common is that they oversimplify things down to their heart's cause." But this wouldn't be an argument that it isn't true.)
"what feminists have in common is that they oversimplify things down to their heart's cause."
That's not at all what I'm saying, but that certainly would be condescending.
Okay, fair enough. And sorry to re-open it, I missed the original don't-use-that-word thread.
Do you more-or-less think that feminists are basically right, but making too big a deal out of gender issues?
Do you more-or-less think that feminists are basically right, but making too big a deal out of gender issues?
No, not at all. I'm saying self-identified feminists represent such an enormous spectrum of philosophies and opinions that saying they're right or wrong isn't a meaningful question. It's like saying, "Well, are patriots basically right or wrong?" or "Are Armenians right or wrong?"
ack, I have a follow-up question but guests just arrived.
Darn it, heebie, I'm here in the office making awesome progress on this grant proposal and you have to go and say something interesting. I was doing fine when the thread was dead, thank you very much.
That said, while this is completely true:
Practically everything any woman does is attributed to them being female by, say, the media. Or my students. Etc.
I really don't think that's the same as "the effects on and of gender relations." I would almost even say it's the opposite.
It's a simplistic "Men are like THIS and women are like THAT, ha-ha" approach that certainly serves to put people neatly in their place with regard to proper gender behavior, but that isn't the same as using a gender-relations lens to analyze what just happened and why.
Indeed, I think one of the biggest things that separates people operating from within feminist paradigms from those operating within non-feminist paradigms is the ability to think structurally and abstractly about things such as power dynamics and institutionalized sexism. Isn't that why "I blame the patriarchy" is so much harder for people to grasp than "I blame men"?
You can say "IBTP" until you're blue in the face, but when people are stuck thinking of the world at a zero-sum, personal-responsibility level, they're going to *hear* "I blame men."
None of this is intended to say that people only fall into these two categories, or that all self-proclaimed feminists are good at thinking in the world in these terms, or that no people who resist identifying as feminists are capable of thinking abstractly. But it's certainly a recurring theme in my attempts to understand why some analyses of the world resonate with some people and not with others.
You see the same thing with racism -- people want to have a conversation about what was in Joe Wilson's heart at the moment he shouted out "You lie!" rather than discussing whether there are patterns in power relationships in the US that might possibly be underlying the choice of a white Republican from the South to break decorum when a black Democrat from the North is speaking.
Right. Now, nobody be interesting in this thread any more. Please.
BORING COMMENT EXPRESSING BANALITIES
I spent the first 18 years of my life in Louisville, which may not qualify me to say much about what it's like to live there as an adult. These days I don't get out much when I'm there, just visit family. Short summary: cost of living is low, weather is awful, there are some nice neighborhoods (with the Highlands topping the list). Beautiful parks. Downtown possibly revitalizing since I was in high school; it used to be pretty dead. Feel free to ask me about specific stuff.
More on Loouhvuhl: Sadly, the noteworthy local bookstore chain sold out to Border's back in 2002-ish. But Carmichael's is a nice, if smallish, independent bookstore. And then there's the Baxter Avenue cinema roughly across the street, showing lots of good foreign and independent films. See also Heine Bros coffee, Wick's Pizza, and Ramsi's Cafe on the World nearby.
Then there are the legions of suburban giant malls ringin the city, getting more upscale and prosperous as you progress to the northeast. (The city is sort of on a radial coordinate system: Dixie Highway [yes, it's really named that], Preston Highway, Bardstown Road, Shelbyville Rd, etc extending out from downtown like spokes on a wheel, and the Watterson Expressway, the Outer Loop, the Gene Snyder Freeway forming large circles connecting the suburbs. SWPL central is at the NE end of the Snyder (I-265), with a posh shopping mall called "The Summit".)
I'll stop here at the risk of composing some footnoted epic of information no one cares about.
No, no, you should go on. It broadens the site from its previous focus on Pittsburgh alone.
To outsiders, the Derby is the big sporting event, but residents care more about UK vs UofL games (basketball, foremost, but also football). It's hard to overstate the importance of college basketball to the average Kentuckian. You may be required to form and defend an opinion about Rick Pitino in order to have anything to talk about with coworkers.
There's a Bourbon Trail relatively close to Loohvuhl.
What about a dentist? Where should the Landerses go to get their teeth cleaned?
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Sorry guys, but I had to tell the truth someday.
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It goes without saying that there is only one correct choice of high school.
And now, off to bed.
I have a follow-up question but guests just arrived.
And I had to go run errands.
There are really two axes it's working on for me. The first, which I've talked about lots, is definitional. There are feminists I largely agree with and feminists I largely disagree with, so it isn't a matter of approving or disapproving of a platform. There is, however, a basic orientational approach that seems common to feminists, and it isn't my default. Therefore, not a feminist. That's not rejecting feminism or saying that it's wrong; it's saying that's not the way my mind works, kinda like the previous conversation about people who hold grudges or don't.
The second one, however, has to do with LB's "sure, isn't everyone reasonable a feminist?" If you grow up where I did, what you hear far more often is "sure, doesn't everybody reasonable [believe in Jesus/love America/choose life]" and as I get older, I'm just increasingly averse to those kinds of vague, norm-enforcing generalities. The question feels like, "I know you're basically a good person, so why don't you just say that you support the troops, then? You don't support terrorism, do you?"
The first, which I've talked about lots, is definitional. There are feminists I largely agree with and feminists I largely disagree with, so it isn't a matter of approving or disapproving of a platform.
You've said this a fair amount, and I just can't buy it as an accurate description of feminism more than any other similarly broad term. If what you mean is "I don't call myself an [anything], because terms like that are all misleadingly unspecific," more power to you. But as a distinction between feminist and liberal, conservative, leftist, libertarian, social democrat, or anything of the sort, I don't see it.
I'm just increasingly averse to those kinds of vague, norm-enforcing generalities. The question feels like, "I know you're basically a good person, so why don't you just say that you support the troops, then? You don't support terrorism, do you?"
Thing is, 'support the troops' is dragged out in favor of 'support the war', or 'support torture', or 'support warrantless wiretapping'. I'm suspicious and resistant to that sort of thing because I know what it's generally bundled with, and it's bundled with stuff I reasonably oppose. Without that bundling, I wouldn't particularly mind it. Is there something you think is getting bundled along with feminism that's making you dig in your heels?
Louisville used to have an elevated railway.
But as a distinction between feminist and liberal, conservative, leftist, libertarian, social democrat
Yeah, I don't identify as any of those either.
it's bundled with stuff I reasonably oppose
The problem isn't that it's bundled, it's that everybody's bundle is different, and "support the troops" doesn't actually mean anything by itself.
I support the troops like A. Whitney Brown supports the troops, obviously.
Yeah, I don't identify as any of those either.
If I'd picked that up earlier -- that you don't have any particular issue with feminism, you have an issue with saying "I'm an [x]" regardless of the value of [x], I would have managed not to get cross with you about it. But that's fairly idiosyncratic of you -- I think most people saying "I'm not a feminist" are actually saying something about their opinion of feminism, specifically.
everybody's bundle is different
Not so much -- they generally fall into very predictable patterns.
everybody's bundle is different
Not so much -- they generally fall into very predictable patterns.
There are lot of different types of people who claim the label, at least: Jenna Jameson, Laura Bush, etc.
Lost the italics on the second sentence of 317, somehow.
Uh, "317" should be "316," and I'm going to go ride my bike before I litter the thread with more typos.
Oh, trust me, I have well-formed opinions on Rick Pitino.
I should give a more fair response to 302/303/305: thanks. I appreciate it. I've actually spent plenty of time in Louisville, since I've got a lot of family there, so I'm reasonably sure I know what I'm getting myself into. (Vis-à-vis the city, at least. I'm less sure about the job.)
But as a distinction between feminist and liberal, conservative, leftist, libertarian, social democrat
Yeah, I don't identify as any of those either.
Really? You don't call yourself liberal or left or anything? For the same reasons that you don't call yourself a feminist?
How did this become such a sticking point over the word feminist in particular?
I'm a feminist, but.... it was kinda awkward doing some of the background reading on the candidates for a senior tenured position at the Institute for the Study of Gender and Sexuality (formerly the Women's Center) because I don't have much of an official academic background in various feminist debates, and the three candidates were so incredibly different. And then all my colleagues made fun of me when I showed up at the job talks---"oh, I didn't know you were into feminism"---"you don't do gender stuff, do you?"
I'm not an Apostropharian, but . . . .
I think Brock was really just asking about ambient lead levels and incidence of intestinal parasites in Louisville.
I don't call myself a liberal because I'm not a liberal. Given my druthers, I'd like to see huge chunks of the economy nationalized and a mostly isolationist foreign policy. But, like Emerson says, most of the country doesn't agree with me and beggars can't be choosers. My Facebook entry for political views is "likely to the left of yours," which works well enough. I'll say that I'm a Democrat because I'm actually registered as such, but I'm only a Democrat by virtue of being anti-Republican in a 2-party system.
So you're a Leftier Than Thouist.
326: Heh. I suppose so. There's nothing particular about feminism that makes it any more a sticking point than the rest; it just presses people's buttons in a way the others don't. Liberals don't seem to care whether I call myself a liberal. Socialists don't seem to care whether I call myself a socialist. Sometimes atheists do, though.
What's the apo take on the UN? Genuinely curious.
Gotta have a forum for countries to talk to one another.
You don't even have a religious-beliefs label for yourself? You're an alabelist, aren't you.
You don't even have a religious-beliefs label for yourself?
Again, the official Facebook answer for religious views is "No thanks, you can keep them." When people ask, I just say I'm not religious. That usually goes one of two unfortunate directions. Either:
1. a dreary dissection of definitions of agnosticism versus atheism, ending with me saying that I don't know and don't think it's possible to know but mostly just don't care, or
2. "But are you a spiritual person?"
To which I say no, because "spiritual" doesn't mean anything and you know the rest of the script.
331.1: Some of the people who want to argue their side of the atheism vs. agnosticism thing are extremely annoying. Your position seems sensible to me.
I don't actually care what you are, religious-wise, I just thinks it's interesting that you don't use labels internally to yourself. I don't tell people I'm atheist, because that's rather aggressie around here if you're not sure who you're talking to. There are all sorts of labels that I wouldn't use in conversation, but I certainly categorize myself that way. Like "extraordinnaire" or "always right".
I mean, I care.
Also my "v" key has been sticking lately.
Also my "v" key has been sticking lately.
ATM.
When people ask me if I'm spiritual, I usually just say no.
Maybe I don't know what ATM stands for, after all.
To which I say no, because "spiritual" doesn't mean anything and you know the rest of the script.
To wit, "I'm a physical person. Let me demonstrate."
When people ask me if I'm spiritual, I usually just say no.
Yeah, but then they start grilling you, looking for something in your life that they can sling a hook in to reassure themselves that you qualify as spiritual, at least.
I kind of love watching the person squirm as they try to reconcile "But I considered her a good person! But she won't admit to being spiritual!" I like to firmly shut down, with equanimity, any crack they try to wedge in my absence of spirituality.
I don't call myself a liberal because I'm not a liberal.
Some of my best friends are liberals.
My enemies' enemies are liberals.
Eric Alterman cares if you call yourself liberal.
Liberals, the quicker picker upper.
Liberals, the other right party.
Liberals: the hottest coolest time in Texas.
Liberals: the world's second largest pecan.
Procedural liberals: better ingredients, same fucking pizza.
I WILL NOT PAY A LOT FOR THIS LIBERAL.
Some kinds of liberals are the kinds of liberals that being liberal's all about. But some kinds of liberals are the kinds of liberals we all can do without.
348: But at least liberals don't scream when you put them in the oven.
"You've come a long way, liberal"
351: They do if you don't follow due process beforehand.
"You've come a long way, liberal"
ATM!
"We're number two, so we try harder."
"Like You Just Stepped Out of a Salon"
"It Stings So You Know It's Working"
"We're more openly gay, so your baggage rides for free."
Are baggage rides some sort of gay thing?
Liberals! Bedrooms! Dinettes! Oh yeah!
You can find 'em at the market!
361: I was going for a parody of that recent spat of Southwest Airlines commercials. And I probably should've said "more gay-friendly".
Wait, Southwest Airlines is a gay airline?
364: Yep. They fly only Boing-brand planes. Totes gay.
If you want a dreary fight where your bags need their own tickets, try the competition. If you fly Southwest, you'll have a gay old time--and your bags will fly for free!
Southwest: the preferred airline of Miss Furr and Miss Skeene.