Re: How to cough

1

I've been doing it this way for years.

Also, if your fingers get messy from food but you don't have a napkin, the socks you're wearing work great.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:17 AM
horizontal rule
2

1.2: That's what I do. Or the inside of my pants cuffs if I'm not wearing socks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:23 AM
horizontal rule
3

Or your armpits if you're not wearing any clothes.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
4

if your fingers get messy from food

... the seat (or leg) of your pants works fine. No one will notice.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:27 AM
horizontal rule
5

Cooking companion to JRoth: Why do you keep bending over to wipe your fingers on your socks?

JRoth: Uh ... I don't have a napkin?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:29 AM
horizontal rule
6

Related: How far up your nose can you stick your finger before you should wash your hands? I've always figured as long as you didn't go on a deep mining expedition, you weren't reaching the germs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
7

||

For anyone who was wondering, all the Peace Corps Volunteers in Samoa are safe and accounted for. This is good news not so much for them, although that, but as a sample of population -- they wouldn't have been less likely to get caught by the tsunami than anyone else. If all 35 volunteers are uninjured, it seems like there's an upper limit on how many casualties there are over all.

But I doubt there will be accurate data out of Samoa on casualties for a month or so.


|>


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:37 AM
horizontal rule
8

I may be too old to learn the new way.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
9

As I've advised my children about eleventy thousand times, "Use your cough pocket!", the cough pocket being that thing which SB describes.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:49 AM
horizontal rule
10

the cough pocket being that thing which SB describes defiles


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
11

Also, what do you call the practice of holding one nostril closed and blowing out the other without a tissue or somesuch (apart from 'vulgar' and 'unsanitary')? 'Air hankie'? 'Farmer's blow'? Something else?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
12

Honking?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
13

11: I don't know, but I can't recall that I've seen anybody who wasn't a farmer use the method.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:02 AM
horizontal rule
14

11: "snot rocket"


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
15

Chinese?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
16

I don't even have sneezes.


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
17

As I've advised my children about eleventy thousand times, "Use your cough pocket!"

I write and say "crook of the arm", but I think "elbowpit".


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
18

Chinese?

You're either racist or hungry.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
19

Half an hour later, you're congested again.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
20

That's how I test for racists. If I offer anyone a cookie and they don't take it, they are racist.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
21

If I offer anyone a cookie and they don't take it, they are racist.

In bed.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:19 AM
horizontal rule
22

11, 13 - The only people I've seen doing that are footballers. Use your shirt!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:26 AM
horizontal rule
23

7
they wouldn't have been less likely to get caught by the tsunami than anyone else.

Any other able-bodied twentysomethings unencumbered by family or at risk of losing all their worldly possessions, that is.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:26 AM
horizontal rule
24

22: In regular, non-soccer football, you have more substantial sleeves, so it is easier.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:28 AM
horizontal rule
25

Racist

It's common in China, at least Shanghai and Beijing, like spitting. A Chinese friend living in the US explained that he found handkerchief use completely incredible (ie nasty) when he first encountered it here.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:32 AM
horizontal rule
26

"Farmer's blow." I first saw it at the bus stop freshman year of HS, in NJ (no farmers). I've used it.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:33 AM
horizontal rule
27

23: True -- I mostly meant that they weren't systematically farther from the beach than anyone else, or with a better early warning system. Since I posted that, though, I found out it wasn't true -- I found a PCV's blogpost on surviving the tsunami, and apparently the PC office in country felt the earthquake, and instantly phoned the PCVs to tell them to go inland. (Back in my day, PCVs didn't have phones. Whippersnappers.) So they were systematically advantaged over the locals in terms of having warning to escape.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:37 AM
horizontal rule
28

11: I don't know, but I can't recall that I've seen anybody who wasn't a farmer use the method.

My brother does that -- particularly when biking. It seems practical when you're outside, but I've never been convinced enough to learn the technique myself.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:41 AM
horizontal rule
29

28: Push one nostril closed with a finger. Shut mouth. Exhale as quickly as possible while wearing a shirt you don't much care for.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:45 AM
horizontal rule
30

Farmer's blow

AKA "meth".


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
31

29.2: Practice in shower.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 10:55 AM
horizontal rule
32

While I'm enjoying the thought of NickS deliberately going about learning the farmer's blow, I actually waiting to see how long it takes for Shearer to turn this thread into an argument about innate intelligence.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:04 AM
horizontal rule
33

I can't bring myself to do it, either.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:08 AM
horizontal rule
34

It's probably neater to swork the snot down to your throat and then spit. Better control.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:08 AM
horizontal rule
35

You've got a shirt hanging there for a reason.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:12 AM
horizontal rule
36

35: Hiding back hair?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:14 AM
horizontal rule
37

Exhale as quickly as possible

I wasn't actually looking for advice. But I'm sure that my problem is that I lack conviction on the exhale.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
38

it helps to go running


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
39

Ever go through the whole day walking about and doing your thing, talking to people and so on, to discover in the evening that your shirt has been misbuttoned akilter, off by one button all day long? Yep.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
40

36: to hide your shame, more fully


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:16 AM
horizontal rule
41

39: I've gotten through half of a day before realizing that my shirt was on backwards.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:20 AM
horizontal rule
42

41: And it was a button-down Oxford.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:21 AM
horizontal rule
43

37: While the worst exhale with passionate intensity.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:26 AM
horizontal rule
44

Today, while riding in a bike pack as we all headed to class, a young man turned his head and spat. What's the problem with this, you ask? Why, the fact that I got the blow back, that's what the problem is. So unhygienic.


Posted by: parenthetical | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:36 AM
horizontal rule
45

37: While the worst exhale with passionate intensity.

I almost made that joke myself, so I'm glad that you did.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:45 AM
horizontal rule
46

11- snot rocket, of course, but also where I come from it's the "Yankee hankie."


Posted by: adamhenne | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:46 AM
horizontal rule
47
Posted by: | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:51 AM
horizontal rule
48

I've heard a lot about this sneezing-into-the-elbow fad recently, but I'm dubious. I think Miss Manners is still carrying the torch for sneezing into a handkerchief, or if necessary a wad of Kleenex.

I think the upshot is that pretty much anything is not disgusting if you're just sneezing once or twice, whereas if you have a cold, or a spontaneous sneezing fit then your options are more limited. Sneezing into your hands would be awful, but sneezing into your elbow might soak your shirt in mucous. At least a handkerchief you can wring out.


Posted by: apk01004 | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 11:59 AM
horizontal rule
49

What I do in most situations is I just sneeze into my hand and then if it's at all wet, I get self-conscious and try to surreptitiously wipe it on my pants or a napkin and try to remember not to shake anyone's hand for a while. In close quarters like a subway or elevator, I hold it in.

48
At least a handkerchief you can wring out.

That implies far more copious flow than I'm used to.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:05 PM
horizontal rule
50

Well, you can at least carry several handkerchiefs and swap them out. You've only got one shirt.


Posted by: apk01004 | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:12 PM
horizontal rule
51

re: 44

Spitting in public provokes a visceral near-instant reaction in me. It's like someone's poked the lizard-brain 'kill/rend/main' circuit.

A couple of times some teenage male has spat in my vicinity [it's fairly standard anti-social asshole behaviour] and it takes a massive exercise of will not to go totally postal.

I can't think of any other thing that provokes such an instant reaction. That young man in your cycling pack would have learned a whole new set of swearwords if he'd spat anywhere near me.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:13 PM
horizontal rule
52

50: I nearly always wear two shirts.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:16 PM
horizontal rule
53

47: omg bozo masks!!! I think you'd better give us some fruit or someone's liable to drop a house on your head.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:16 PM
horizontal rule
54

A couple of times some teenage male has spat in my vicinity [it's fairly standard anti-social asshole behaviour]

We have a city code forbidding it. It's a good reason to give an asshole a ticket and run him for warrants.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:18 PM
horizontal rule
55

Sanctimoniously lecturing about the dangers of spreading TB by public spitting would probably round out the ticket-giving experience nicely.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:20 PM
horizontal rule
56

Bring back signs that say 'Expectorate in the Cuspidor'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:21 PM
horizontal rule
57

Sanctimoniously lecturing about the dangers of spreading TB by public spitting would probably round out the ticket-giving experience nicely.

Unfortunately, "rational man" in law enforcement works about at well as it does in economics.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:26 PM
horizontal rule
58

re: 54

It's probably against some law here, too. It could certainly get you an 'asbo'.*

I've told a story here before, some teenage arse spat on the back of my mate F's jacket while we were at the cinema.** This was in retalation for F telling him to pipe down. F just quietly stood up, turned round, and punched him flush in the face. It was a beautifully cinematic moment.

* anti-social behaviour order
** we were only in our late teens ourselves, at the time.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:26 PM
horizontal rule
59

57: Oh, I was mostly just thinking of a way to make the ticket-receiving process more annoying for the spitter.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
60

I learned to sneeze into my elbowpit in situations where I was wearing chemical-soaked gloves. I've seldom snotrocketed though. Usually only when mowing my old arid lawn that wouldn't take the hint and die already.


Posted by: Mo MacArbie | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:31 PM
horizontal rule
61

I was mostly just thinking of a way to make the ticket-receiving process more annoying for the spitter.


expectoration never, intubation now


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:38 PM
horizontal rule
62

54: Er, you are supposed to be one of the good cops, right?


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:39 PM
horizontal rule
63

Speaking of arrests, the students are having a protest about the G-20 arrests. Unfortunately, they picked a time and location that could dick with my commute.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:41 PM
horizontal rule
64

I was mostly just thinking of a way to make the ticket-receiving process more annoying for the spitter.

What's actually pretty effective for a lot of the biggest asshole types is taking their picture. Hell, we don't even do anything with the pic, but there seems to be a strong correlation between, "chronic anti social asshole" and "bug fuck paranoid about getting their picture taken".


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:43 PM
horizontal rule
65

Er, you are supposed to be one of the good cops, right?

Heh. We have certain "problem spots" downtown in my beat that are habitual hangouts for assholes. Aggressive panhandling, spitting, open container, fights, etc. The type of people who would spit on someone in a movie theatre, go into one of the businesses and knock shit over when they get told the bathrooms are customer only, habitual shoplifters, etc. Been kind of a pet project for a couple of us lately. Foot patrol along with a fair amount of aggressive order maintenance is pretty effective.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
66

64: You should put one of those little signs with numbers on it (like they put next to blood drops on CSI) next to every bit of spittle and photograph the scene.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:52 PM
horizontal rule
67

64: Thinking of effective ways to tease street-spitters is probably a terrible idea, but I bet dabbing at the spit with a cotton ball, and putting it in an envelope as you mutter "DNA testing" to yourself would really irritate people. But that would be wrong.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:54 PM
horizontal rule
68

In college I was sitting in a lecture hall waiting for class to start when someone in the row behind me sneezed so hard I felt it on the back of my neck (air only, fortunately). A few days later I had a bad cold.

When I shipped some stuff from DC in May the guy processing the shipment sneezed directly into his hands and then handed me the receipt. At least I didn't get sick until after I'd finished moving.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:56 PM
horizontal rule
69

Now I feel sort of guilty. I used to spit all the time, for sound tobacco-related reasons. Though I always tried to use the storm drain or something where nobody was likely to step/sit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:57 PM
horizontal rule
70

What would be really wrong would be doing similar things to litterers, toward whom I feel the same fury ttaM describes toward spitters.

I need to come up with a stock line for the litterers that shies away from, "Hey! What did you just do?! Did I just see you do that???"


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 12:58 PM
horizontal rule
71

Speaking of public confrontation over witnessed wrongs, a while back I saw a college-aged kid writing in wet cement on the sidewalk of our local main drag. I looked over and said "Hey" and the guy and his friends took-off running. That's when I realized that I look old. Also, that I'd never find out who Darrin loves.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:02 PM
horizontal rule
72

What would be really wrong would be doing similar things to litterers, toward whom I feel the same fury ttaM describes toward spitters

OMG, I was hiking in Big Sur recently and came upon a group of twenty-something hipsters who were standing around smoking. I watched in horror as they threw their butts on the ground, in a protected wildlife parkland that is prone to devastation by wildfire. To cap it off, they were British. I was like, why don't you go home and ruin your own fucking country, you pukemaking hideous monsters, but there were a lot of them and only one of me. I wept with rage. I should have shot them.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:07 PM
horizontal rule
73

71: We're both so old I can't be positive that you've told that story here before, but I think you have. s' okay. It's a good story.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:07 PM
horizontal rule
74

I've recently strongly considered making a sign to carry around in my truck that I can hold up at appropriate moments: "STOP TEXTING. YOU'RE DRIVING, FOR FUCK'S SAKE. WHAT THE HELL KIND OF SHITHEAD ARE YOU?"

I doubt it would do any good, as they usually aren't that into noticing the world around them that they're driving through. Maybe a device that would automatically text that message to their cellphone, or an external speaker that would blast that message loudly at the touch of a button.

Of course with the latter it would be hard not to implement a second button that triggered a "HOW ABOUT USING YOUR GODDAMN TURN SIGNAL, FUCKFACE?" message.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:09 PM
horizontal rule
75

Also, that I'd never find out who Darrin loves.

You should have filled that part in yourself. Something uplifting, like "helping others" or "geometry".


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
76

73: I probably have. It (being taken as 'authority' by random strangers) was a very startling experience for me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:15 PM
horizontal rule
77

Maybe he just didn't want you to find out that he loved...you.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:16 PM
horizontal rule
78

Or maybe Darrin's a nihilist and intentionally left that part blank.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:16 PM
horizontal rule
79

77, 78: Much more likely that the kids were actually Darrin's friends and it was going to read "Darrin loves dog cock" or something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:18 PM
horizontal rule
80

I share ttaM's feelings towards spitters. My all time favorite has to be people who dump their ashtray out the window of their car while stopped at traffic lights. A friend witnessed someone run up to a vehicle that had just done this and furiously begin throwing butts back in through the window as the occupant tried to roll it up. I know that if I ever tried to do this the driver would be Mike Tyson or someone similarly large and belligerent, and I'd only cotton the fact as I watched the first butt bounce off his face.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:18 PM
horizontal rule
81

Or maybe he just simply loves, intransitively.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:19 PM
horizontal rule
82

80: Oh, god, I love that. I've seen the ashtray-dumping routine as well, and have trouble not showing my fangs curling my lip as I sit quietly in the car behind the offender's.

Around here in Baltimore, a white woman taking aggressive issue with a litterer is like to backfire pretty badly, however.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
83

74: Try this next time.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 1:30 PM
horizontal rule
84

... a group of twenty-something hipsters... they were British... there were a lot of them and only one of me.

Where have you gone, Lone Wolf McQuade?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 2:29 PM
horizontal rule
85

72 - Not saying it's ok to chuck your butts on the floor, but the British bit wasn't just capping it off, it was probably why they didn't think anything of what they were doing. Everyone throws their butts on the floor here as far as I can tell, and the whole forest fire thing is not something we have to worry about.

(I was greatly amused by a bin in Cornmarket (Oxford) recently - a cylindrical thing next to a bench, marked "Butts" or "Ash". Unfortunately it had no bottom, so underneath it was a small, tidy pile of fag ends.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 2:37 PM
horizontal rule
86

Serious about the city code, gswift? A couple of times I've had to spit in the corner to get my throat cleared, and I couldn't wait to get to a rest room.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 5:07 PM
horizontal rule
87

86: Spit into your sleeve.


Posted by: apk01004 | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 5:19 PM
horizontal rule
88

||

Was it LB that wanted a simply link to Emerson's posts at Open Left?

John Emerson

From a comment at CT

Sorry if pwnd, or if she et al knows already

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 5:22 PM
horizontal rule
89

I don't know, but I can't recall that I've seen anybody who wasn't a farmer use the method.

British footballers do it all the time. While being watched by millions of people on TV around the world.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 5:57 PM
horizontal rule
90

As for coughing techniques, what about the "turn your head to the side while a man in a white coat attentively fondles your testicles" method? Is that now deprecated too?


Posted by: a patient man | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 7:57 PM
horizontal rule
91

Us smokers might be less inclined to litter if they provided ashtrays on the damn garbage cans. They do in some European cities. Doesn't apply to Big Sur - carry out most trash, bury the rest.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
92

carry out most trash, bury the rest

That sounds like the tag-line for a Tarantino-directed remake of Roadhouse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
93

I know of an ingenius way to get kids to do the elbow cough: My child came home from school saying that they learned to cough and sneeze into their elbow with Germy Wormie, and I was totally taken aback. I always covered with my hands. But I went to the website and now I get it, hands touch, elbows don't!! Kids can touch 300 surfaces in 1/2 hour and they hate to wash their hands. This is a simple thing that can make a huge difference.


Posted by: Mary | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 8:53 PM
horizontal rule
94

Go unfiltered. Handroll, slows down the rate of smoking, plus the tobacco is not adulterated with saltpeter. You control humidity and thus the slowness and coolness of your smokes. Looks juvenile, but so?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10- 1-09 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
95

Serious about the city code, gswift?

Text of the code.

Expectoration and spitting in public places.
It is unlawful for any person to expectorate or spit, or throw cigar stumps, cigarette stumps or quids of tobacco on the floor of any street railway car or other public conveyance, or public building, or upon any paved sidewalk or paved crosswalk within the city.

Do we need to keep an eye on BG?(I'm now picturing her as an aggressive panhandler with Juggalo tats) You got warrants?

This is one of our chronic problem guys downtown. But not lately. Snagged him jaywalking back in June and took him on some fresh warrants.

http://www.slco.org/JailRoster/JailRosterServlet?getSingleCase=getSingleCase&prisoner_id=285165

And here's what the sheet on a chronic drunk looks like.

http://www.slco.org/JailRoster/JailRosterServlet?getSingleCase=getSingleCase&prisoner_id=202337

Keep in mind that those warrants and charges are just things being dealt with in the here and now. Not even remotely a full history.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 10- 2-09 2:08 AM
horizontal rule
96

Old and busted: Obama is a Muslim.
New hotness: Obama is a Jew.

Inpeach!


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 10- 2-09 6:36 AM
horizontal rule
97

96: I heard that he was a Rastafarian and will legalize as soon as he can set-up the vote so that exactly 420 members of Congress vote yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10- 2-09 7:01 AM
horizontal rule
98

Obama mon.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10- 2-09 7:15 AM
horizontal rule