When Rory was an infant, I remember being out with her one day, her dressed in an adorable, little pink outfit and hat. And still, "How old is he?" (Most of her early childhood involved very "boyish" clothes, so that day particularly stood out.) (1) I think people have some sort of innate need to mentally assign a gender as soon as possible -- it's just too disorienting or something to interact without lumping the kid into the subset "girl" or "boy"; and (2) the cues people rely on to make their mental assignments can be really unclear.
Yeah, I should probably chill out about this whole thing. I'm just becoming less and less gung-ho about the primary colors, and reaching for some girl-signal item more and more often, and I don't understand why I care and I'm frustrated that I seem to care.
On the post, our boys were constantly mistaken for girls when they were babies. I doubt it's really HP's clothes. People just make a best-guess and go with it. Babies are generally fairly androgynous, so it's easy to get it wrong.
On Di's comment that "people have some sort of innate need to mentally assign a gender as soon as possible -- it's just too disorienting or something to interact without lumping the kid into the subset "girl" or "boy"", what's weird to me is the extent to which people seem to want to do this even for fetuses whose genders haven't yet been determined. There are people who really freak out when you say "it" rather than "he" or "she". I guess you could actually say "he or she" every time, but that's a bit cumbersome.
Speaking ex recto, I'm thinking there is some long-term benefit in having people mix up your baby's gender. I'm thinking of those studies where people handled infants differently if they were dressed in pink rather than blue, or the one (that you posted here?) where parents understimated their daughter's ability to crawl down a slope but had more confidence in their sons. So, I dunno, maybe a little infantile gender confusion helps level the playing field down the road?
what's weird to me is the extent to which people seem to want to do this even for fetuses whose genders haven't yet been determined
At some point in the pregnancy, I shifted to consistently refering to Fetus Rory as "she," though we waited to learn the gender until she was born. I maintain, though, that this wasn't me being weird but me being an exceptionally good mother who just knew.
4: Well, yes, that's all well and good, as long as you're not having a boy baby mistaken for a girl.
The clothes divide has got worse since my eldest was born 13 years ago. (Here, anyway.) And guessing wrong does annoy me because it's not exactly hard to say something neutral like "cute baby" or even *gasp* ask.
My 7 year old makes me laugh, because she will wear any of her older brother's handmedowns, but thinks boys wearing girl clothes is a bit odd. She doesn't like men in pink shirts either.
Honestly, IME, people make assumptions about gender based on an utterly opaque internal algorithm. Iris was pretty bald until she was well after 2, which is the only reason we can imagine that people would refer to her as "he" even when she was wearing pink, frilly, flowery outfits (I might add that she was a petite, even dainty, baby). Kai has been referred to as a "she" even when wearing stereotypically "boy" clothes, like red overalls with dalmatians on them. And the kid is a total bruiser-boy (also pretty bald).
I'm not saying that the gender of baby clothes isn't fucked up - there's definitely a sense that the color rules Heebie mentions apply - but I've seen way too many people completely ignore those cues to feel oppressed by them. They simply don't have the force we imagine.
My theory, btw, is that people are bringing gender presumptions that are unrelated to immediate cues at all. My only evidence for this - aside from the fact that people ignore cues all the time - is that, when I had girl dogs, I referred to dogs of unknown sex as "she," while now that I have a boy dog, I refer to stranger dogs as "he." I don't think people are that simplistic in their appraisal of unknown babies, but I do think that something internal is going on that leads a lot of people to ignore - or to interpret counterintuitively - socialized gender cues like clothing colors and patterns. You know, maybe they just got an email with pictures of the niece, or there was an article in the paper about a boy baby, or who knows what. But, as I say, it's clearly not 1:1 between gendered clothing and correct identification of baby sex.
ms bill coached our son's soccer team (go Blue Sharks!) for several years. ms bill is white and our (adopted) son is asian. when I met the mother of one his teammates, she actually said, "you're [son bill's] dad? He's so tan - I thought you were Hispanic!"
To which I could have/should have said "Racist!" in several different dimensions. Instead I mumbled something about adoption.
The baby clothing phenomenon that cracks me up is those head garters for girls.
11: Coming soon with flashing neon "I'm a Girl!!" lettering.
Stop co-opting all bold colors for boys and let's just have babies.
I will say that Iris had a lot of baby outfits that were boldly colored yet not explicitly boy clothes. Some of them were overtly girly (like this little harlequin dress/tunic that was iirc orange, red, and purple with embroidered flowers - that was one I lobbied for keeping for Kai, but apparently AB is a tool of the patriarchy, so no dice), but others seemed sort of intentionally ambiguous - basically bright and fun and baby-like, not little-woman- or little-man-like. People may still make their assumptions, but I didn't feel like the manufacturers themselves were targeting them. That stuff is mostly from high-end and/or Euro catalogues like Baby Boden and Growing Up Garnett Hill*, and, indeed, one of our laments was that you had to spend big money to get stuff that wasn't total gender-pushing bullshit.
* Only afforded via eBay and lucky resale store finds - are you reading, foxytail?
I am! eBay Buy It Now is my best friend.
11: When AB's father was a baby, he had cute little curls, which everyone apparently thought were a sign of being a girl (??). Meanwhile, his sister was a baldy (and thus a presumptive boy*), so their mother resorted to basically taping a ribbon to the sister's head. I don't recall whether they did anything to proclaim him a boy.
* That one makes a bit more sense to me, as the only bald adults one sees are men and Sinead O'Connor, who hadn't been born at that point
The resale stores are definitely awesome. Clothes worn probably twice by some other kid now yours for $4 instead to $19.
10: It's not clear to me who in this story is American, Mexican, and Chinese; could we get a chart, please?
17: Kai has these little brown leather Ecco boots that AB picked up awhile ago, and he really likes them. The other day she went into Goodwill and found them in the next-larger size, perfect condition, for $3!!! Plus an awesome pair of German snow boots that he loves, also dirt cheap.
I might add that the snow boots are red but have pink and iirc silver snowflakes on them - I don't know if they're supposed to be gendered, but to me they're completely ambiguous.
Oh, and on shoes, AB found (also in a resale) a very cute pair of maryjanes, which are too small for Iris. Iris looked at them and assumed they must therefore be for Kai, which made me happy. Again, conformist AB does not plan to put her boy into maryjanes, no matter how cute (they're green and brown! totally boyish!), so she's going to keep them for a little while just to admire them, and then sell them on eBay.
The thing I was really annoyed by was the pressure about never never putting a boy in something that might have a girl signal on it. Sally's older, and we held onto a lot of her clothes, which were largely fairly androgynous, for Newt. And man, people get tense at the slightest hint of girlie embroidery on clothes for a boy -- the babysitter surreptitiously got rid of perfectly good toddler jeans in blue denim because of something femmy stitched on a pocket, my mother called me to tell me she was throwing out a windbreaker Newt had shown up at her house in -- bright blue and green, but it had a stylized butterfly logo on it. We ended up joining in the policing just to not get into a big thing about it.
Feh. Being a girl isn't catching.
The baby head garters clearly need complementary baby codpieces.
19: I didn't see this before posting 20, but this:
I might add that the snow boots are red but have pink and iirc silver snowflakes on them - I don't know if they're supposed to be gendered, but to me they're completely ambiguous.
I betcha someone brings it up. Pink snowflakes? Girl.
pink and iirc silver snowflakes on them [...] to me they're completely ambiguous
he babysitter surreptitiously got rid of perfectly good toddler jeans in blue denim because of something femmy stitched on a pocket, my mother called me to tell me she was throwing out a windbreaker Newt had shown up at her house in -- bright blue and green, but it had a stylized butterfly logo on it
Wow! People getting rid of stuff on your behalf goes a good step farther than I ever would have anticipated.
The baby head garters clearly need complementary baby codpieces merkins.
That would complement along a different axis.
24: Well, I'm imputing motives to Nancy -- she was certainly authorized to get rid of clothes that were torn, or stained, or didn't fit anymore. But there were a couple of "Hey, what happened to that [garment]" incidents that correlated with a tiny bit of embroidery, or a lettuce-edge on the hem of a turtleneck. Mom came into it with claiming to be getting rid of the windbreaker because it didn't fit, which was simply untrue, and didn't bring up the butterfly until well into the conversation, at which point she said he'd get teased about it. I talked her down.
Feh. Being a girl isn't catching.
Yes, but The Gay is very contagious, and really what people are worried about.
Feh. Being a girl isn't catching.
"Being a girl"? No. The worry is that he'll catch The Gay.
Well, yes. The implicit undertone of the conversation is "What are you trying to do by sending your three-year old out into the world by putting him in jeans with sparkly embroidery on the pocket? Are you trying to make him gay? Because that's fucked up." Which, no.
I betcha someone brings it up.
And, indeed, when AB brought them home I raved about them, and she noted the pink snowflakes to me, pointing out that they were presumably for girls. But they're bright red! There's no foofiness to them! They have lug soles!
It's possible that Iris' extreme girliness from ages 2-5 has upped my threshold for girliness - I mean, the child wouldn't wear pink corduroys because she refused all pants.
Actually, because Kai basically wears the hand-me-downs from that other family, his wardrobe is way less ambiguous than it would have been under our selections - most days he's wearing either a sporty pullover or a flannel button-down with brown pants. Since this is basically how I dress, I don't object, but it's definitely not what we would have chosen (at least not every day). But we're sure as hell not going to spend money on clothes just to make some point that no one will ever notice.
Feh. Being a girl isn't catching.
Tragically.
BTW, H-G, that's a funny soccer story. You should have made a joke about performance-enhancement and cheating.
31: Whoa, hold on--now the full truth comes out. The embroidery was sparkly? That goes well beyond "the slightest hint of girlie". You might as well have been giving him estrogen injections.
35: At that age, the suppositories are much easier.
We bought a mess of winter baby clothes at Goodwill yesterday, which led to angst which led to this post, which is making me feel much better. However! We spent $7 and got a bundle of very cute stuff.
I hadn't even considered the policing of boys with girls clothing. 20 is super infuriating.
37: 20 is infuriating. And yet, I sort of suspect that if Rory had instead been Ralph, I probably would have balked a bit at girlie detailing nonetheless. Sad how ingrained some of this stuff is. (I like to hope I would have pushed myself to get over it, but I can't be sure.)
Yeah, I suspect I'd have a harder time than I wish I would have.
I'm surprised the no one has mentioned the (much more important) gender policing other children will do. Of course, any child the mineshaft pops out is likely to be mocked regardless, but still...
Well, even I wouldn't do it much -- the adorable little infant pajama outfit with embroidered rosebuds and eyelet lace ruffles that was both beautiful and comfortable on Sally? Didn't come out of the drawer for Newt. What killed me was that even with me doing a certain amount of gender-appropriateness-enforcement, there were people with a laser-like focus on getting rid of anything femmy at all.
I'm surprised the no one has mentioned the (much more important) gender policing other children will do.
IME, that doesn't kick in until (a) much older than baby/toddler ages and (b) isn't nearly as fine-grainedly sensitive as adults are. The butterfly-logo jacket was actually a school-age thing, and he'd been wearing it for months -- it was his favorite jacket -- without any gender-based commentary from other kids.
The pressure at the baby and toddler age, and even into grade school, seems to me to be almost entirely adult driven. Adults worrying about how kids will react, maybe, but still adult-driven.
35: that might have made him a better investor.
41.last: Right. It's one thing for people to think, "Are they crazy putting their boy into taffeta?" and trying to counteract it; it's quite another for people to be so hyper-alert to the faintest boundary-crossing.
I'm sure that, if challenged, the gender policers would actually point to 40 as the reason - "Do you want Newt being mocked/beaten up on the playground?" That said, I'm not sure it's an issue before 3, and maybe even 4 - I know Iris was hyper-aware of gender when she was 2, but I'm equally certain that neither she nor her peers were capable of keying in on subtle gender cues in the clothing of others (iow, they'd probably talk about a boy in a dress, but not a boy with embroidery on his jeans - they're just not that sophisticated, which is part of why they want big, flashing cues, like wearing a dress or skirt every day for 3 years).
Further to 42: Actually, I haven't seen any gender policing at all from other kids that I've noticed. Neither of mine are particularly such that they'd be strongly likely to attract that kind of policing if it were out there, so maybe other kids are drawing more shit on that front.
Dammit, LB.
I'm actually surprised at what you're saying about grade school kids. I'm pretty sure that Iris would say something if a boy in one of her classes were wearing something girly. I don't know where her threshold is - as I noted, she thought a pair of maryjanes would be ok for Kai - but I know that she's aware of things like that. I don't think it would take a boy in a dress to get her notice.
Now that I think about it, this must be one of those things that's completely different in Manhattan.
Well, I haven't seen the policing partially because my kids genuinely haven't been wearing gender-inappropriate clothes much. Newt had a couple of things when he was school age, though: a pair of sneakers that Sally really hadn't worn at all before she grew out of them that had a bit of pink piping; the jacket that Mom noticed (which was really very androgynous. Bright blue and green, the only thing was a small (inch square) embroidered logo where you had to look at it and think to get 'butterfly'.) And adults noticed, but kids never seemed to - I think, as you say, that they're really not that sophisticated until they get older.
My kids aren't in school in 'Manhattan' the way you're thinking, though -- their classmates aren't the kids of snooty liberal professionals like me, mostly, they're predominantly workingclass immigrants.
47.last: Oh I know that, it was pure needling.
As I say, Iris dresses herself quite girly (although now she's in a uniformed school, so), so she would never have gotten comments, but I've heard her comment on the outfits of her classmates when she was in non-uniformed schools, and she definitely would notice, say, a boy wearing pink (and sometimes, when she was ~3, she'd get it wrong, thinking that some totally non-gendered thing, like the color yellow or a cartoon mouse, would be inappropriate for one sex or the other).
I'm surprised the no one has mentioned the (much more important) gender policing other children will do.
Caroline has been trying to enforce gender norms on Joey, but she has some interesting ideas about what those norms are. Yesterday, she told Joey that boys can wear lipstick but not bracelets.
My kids aren't in school in 'Manhattan' the way you're thinking
She means they don't attend yeshiva.
I'm just clarifying that LB is a racist.
Pardon me? I'm not a racist, I'm an anti-Semite. Entirely different.
Haven't read the thread yet, but I sometimes wish that babies wore bracelets identifying which gender they were. Something neutral like a hospital take that one could sneak a look at.
I hate when I see an acquaintance with her baby, and I've been told what sex the baby is, but I can't remember. I know all this stuff about people treating babies differently according to their sex, but I'd like to be able to get the pronoun right.
One useful trick is to admit that you've forgotten the name, and ask what it is again.
Anyway, aquaintance's babies' names are the hardest thing in the world to remember. A woman down the hall has a daughter named Phallan. (Oh god, now I'm not even sure that's right. I remember thinking, on different occasions: 1. It's pronounced like Jimmy Fallon, and 2. It's spelled Phelan. One of those must be wrong.)
Anyway, I finally was able to remember that she has a girl, but that name is the hardest thing in the world. When I met the girl, after a full year of pregnancy and baby talk with this colleague, I think I called her Phee-lawn, and later was embarrassed.
54: "Oh, Alex is such a hands-, uh, such a beauti-, uh, darling little... child."
55: I think you can be reassured that, in any situation involving a girl called Phallan, you are only ever going to be the second most embarrassed person in the room.
53: "How's the wee one doing?" will normally elicit a helpful response ("Oh, he's fine").
Also, http://xkcd.com/302/
RAH RAH AH AH AH RO MA RO MA MA GA GA OO LA LA
baby talk?
I totally, totally love that song. Way more than I ought to.
It's pronounced like Jimmy Fallon
That's unfortunate. Try never to refer to her as "squirt".
I've been having a lot of conversations with 5-year-old-neighbor-kid lately about gender norming. I'm doing my best to subvert the patriarchy!
Gryphon: you can tell if someone is a boy or a girl if they have long hair.
Me: oh yeah? What about Simba?
Gryphon: Simba's a LION (eyeroll)
Me: well... what about.. Ahem! anyway boys can have long hair. You should just ask people if they want you to call them a boy or a girl, if you're not sure
Gryphon: I don't need to ask, I already KNOW, cause I looked at their hair!
What's great about this all is that Gryphon is a girl, so we also have the conversation that goes:
Gryphon: [some kid at school] is MEAN. [S]he told me that Gryphon is a boy's name.
Me: well, sometimes it is. Remember about asking people what they prefer?
Gryphon: But I HAVE LONG HAIR!
Looks like ajay got to this thread before I did. Good.
ALL YOUR THREADS ARE BELONG TO RANDALL MUNROE
The kids at my job got into a discussion about girls living longer than boys and instantly determined that long hair makes you live longer. Duh.
Or perhaps testicles are deadly killers.
They're registered as deadly weapons in 22 states.
The teabaggers get a restraining order against them before every protest.
Masculinity is very fragile.
At work, I'm expecting to take care of a woman terminating after her 20 week ultrasound due to physical anomalies. The amnio was normal, XY, but on the sonogram genitals were ambiguous.
That's right, a fate worse than death.
They're registered as deadly weapons in 22 states.
22 states? Let's see, there's liquid, solid, gas . . . .
Mmm. I went into an instant tizzy of wondering all sorts of things that Shamhat almost certainly didn't know, and gave up on forming an opinion in the absence of more information. (And I swear to God that I wasn't intending to be funny, but almost the first thing I thought was that the parents had gone off half-cocked.)
Only semi-OT: the movie Babies looks interesting. Or, failing that, at least cute.
At work, I'm expecting to take care of a woman terminating after her 20 week ultrasound due to physical anomalies. The amnio was normal, XY, but on the sonogram genitals were ambiguous.
That's right, a fate worse than death.
Her decision. Period.
She is in a no win situation. If she isnt upset, she is callous. If she is upset, she is a jerk.
Her body. Her decision.
eh, maybe that was too harsh toward Shamhat.
I dont know what Shamhat's job or role is, so please forgive my sharp response.
I'm pretty sure Shamhat's a nurse.
77: As a matter of general principle, you're right. In the absence of complete knowledge about what was going on, you're right. If I had complete knowledge of all the facts, I could imagine getting to "Why would you do that?"
80:
Why?
Does she have to prove a certain set of responses in order for you to feel ok to abort?
Or is this like work-place termination in Virginia - you can do it for any reason except race, gender, or age?
Does she have to prove a certain set of responses in order for you to feel ok to abort?
What would be wrong with that? Everyone is entitled to approve or disapprove as they see fit. No one gets to legislate opinions.
77
Her body. Her decision.
She has the legal right to decide. I have a legal right to an opinion about her decision. Same as if she decides to dye her hair green.
80
As a matter of general principle, you're right. In the absence of complete knowledge about what was going on, you're right. If I had complete knowledge of all the facts, I could imagine getting to "Why would you do that?"
You might not approve of the decision but the reasons for it seem unlikely to be mysterious.
I have a legal right to an opinion about her decision.
THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T EVEN MENTION OPINIONS. AND THAT'S NOT JUST MY OPINION!
I am entitled to have my opinion about their opinions!
I'd like to find out the position of all the members of anti-choice groups on this question.
"Do you oppose abortion in cases where the unborn baby is transgendered?"
Probably you'd just get a lot of very confused responses. Plus a lot of "The poor mother must have been scared by a gay!"
84: Actually, based on what Shamhat said, I can imagine a whole bunch of different factual scenarios; in some of which cases I could imagine making the same decision (the genital abnormality is one symptom of some diagnosed syndrome with significant other health problems), in some of which I probably wouldn't do the same thing, but I could follow the reasoning (no other health problems, but definitely a kid who's going to be difficult to assign a social gender to in light of the kid's physical anatomy), and in some of which I'd be boggling at why you'd abort an otherwise wanted pregnancy over that (maybe the kid's going to have a small dick. Who knows what the ultrasound is going to mean after birth?), with plenty of variation within each scenario.
"Do you oppose abortion in cases where the unborn baby is transgendered?"
Intersexed, no? The concept of transgendered for a fetus seems tricky to wrap my head around.
90: That doesn't mean it's not the right question to ask pro-lifers.
Yeah, you'd have to be at least in infancy stage. The transgendered babies are the boys in lettuce-edged t-shirts and the girls in bright colors.
I want to add a question to the pro-choicers as well as the anti-choicers:
Do you require the woman to be sad about the abortion?
I'm a nurse, Will, and I'm the only nurse scheduled to work on that shift who is willing to take the patient. They inform us of terminations in advance to make sure that at least one person will be willing to serve her.
I probably have enough details to identify her if she happens to read this, and of course no one wants that. The baby has a micropenis on sonogram. It was a wanted pregnancy up until that was discovered.
She has the right to terminate for any reason up until the point of viability, and past that if her life is threatened or the baby has anomalies incompatible with life.
The sad thing for me is the assumption that a man with a tiny penis isn't a man. We women can have our uteruses removed, our ovaries, both breasts, and still be women.
There's a sad case from about 30 years ago, twin Canadian boys who went for medically indicated (probably foreskin not retracting) circumcision at about 9 months. The electrocautery device malfunctioned and the first twin's penis was burned off.
The parents were counseled that since he couldn't be a boy anymore, they should raise him as a girl. They castrated him, dressed him as a girl, and eventually gave him hormones. Much of the literature on gender flexibility was based on his case, from data published before he refused to speak to that shrink, identified as male, married a woman, and eventually killed himself.
So this was an XY male, normal genitals, cis-identified, hetero-oriented, who was labeled "not a male" because of a cosmetic injury, and then considered a girl by default.
Also, the second twin wasn't circumcised and he outgrew the issue.
93: Abortion is usually a very sad occasion for everyone involved.
Actually, few medical procedures induce rainbow-and-unicorn feelings, although some of the pain meds do.
94: That's funny, I'd read about that case, but had either forgotten or never known about the twin bit of it.
And I'm seriously bemused by the idea that a diagnosis of micropenis can be made by sonogram -- regardless of whether it's a reasonable thing to have an abortion over, it seems unexpected to me that a sonogram at that age would be reliably predictive of adult penis size.
Do you require the woman to be sad about the abortion?
Nope!
97: I'd imagine there's a reasonably clean line between women who have abortions because they didn't want to be pregnant, and those who have abortions because of some perceived "problem" with the pregnancy.
By which I mean: I'd expect a lot more sadness on one side of the line than the other.
True -- I'd expect an abortion of a wanted pregnancy to be sad.
I don't know what the word "require" in 93 is meant to imply, honestly.
96.last is my main response to this - although the term "micropenis" makes me picture something absurdly small*.
* Wiki being resolutely unhelpful on this: "erect penile length of at least 2.5 standard deviations smaller than the mean Human penis size." Either that's a meaningless metric, or it's simply a fucking number that you could tell me.
103: I'd read it as "Are you going to condition your support for abortion in any individual case with a requirement that the woman be sad about it -- that is, are you going to condemn a woman getting an abortion for not feeling sad?"
93
Do you require the woman to be sad about the abortion?
I don't require anything but I think it is socially expected. Same as pulling the plug on Grandma. Even if you are going to inherit millions and never liked her anyway.
103: Wikipedia has pictures. (Obviously, NSFW, as I discovered when I went looking for a measurement and found pictures instead.)
I just had an opportunity to get the definitive answer on Little Phallus mentioned above. It's pronounced and spelled like Jimmy Fallon. No ph at all.
It must be difficult not pointing out that that's a wicked retahded name to give a baby.
Most eight to fourteen year old boys referred for micropenis do not have the micropenis condition.
it seems unexpected to me that a sonogram at that age would be reliably predictive of adult penis size.
Ditto.
110: Weirdly, the wiki page says it is normally diagnosed at birth, where similar doubts obtain, it seems to be.
I only mentioned this because I don't think anyone would consider termination for a girl in this situation (XX, with no ovaries or uterus visible on ultrasound).
I guess I need to clarify about her "rights." She has a theoretical right to terminate, if:
She can find a doctor (her own doctor, who was her gyn, has done her prenatal care, ordered the amnio and told her the results, ordered the 20 week anatomy sonogram and told her the results, and counseled her on her options, then referred her to another doctor who does this sort of thing. This sort of thing being a cytotec induction of labor, which isn't technically challenging in any way. He's just preserving his ability to say he's never done a termination in case he's nominated for Surgeon General.)
She can find a hospital (some doctors have privileges at our hospital while primarily practicing at a Catholic hospital. For some Americans, this would mean a flight to Nebraska.)
People at that hospital are willing to serve her (sometimes we do a lot of Demerol rather than an epidural, if the only anesthesiologist on call won't do terminations)
She can afford it (second trimester abortions are $5000-10,000, depending on timing and procedure, and in the case of induction, how long it eventually takes--without complications. Right now most insurance other than Medicaid covers terminations.)
109: Well sure, that's what they tell them to their faces, but when they gossip with the other doctors....
I don't think anyone would consider termination for a girl in this situation (XX, with no ovaries or uterus visible on ultrasound).
I have been told of doctors recommending termination for Turners syndrome, which is of similar severity (chromosomal abnormality in girls who are X rather than XX; associated with short but not really unusual stature; normal general intelligence but possible math/spacial learning disability; and infertility and failure to go through puberty without hormonal treatment). Again, that hits my "I don't get it -- why would you abort an otherwise wanted child over that?" reaction. So, not just weirdness about masculinity -- I think people are generally weird about sex.
113: I think they were "referred" by their older brothers.
"erect penile length of at least 2.5 standard deviations smaller than the mean Human penis size."
Wait... I thought it was girth that mattered!
Is there a different term for "erect penile girth of at least 2.5 standard deviations smaller than the mean Human penis size"?
And does this mean the technical term for the well-endowed is "macropenis"?
116: Wait... I thought it was girth that mattered!
I am reminded of an old boss of Buck's who claimed to be hung like a tuna can.
A disturbing image.
I suppose that for all we know, exactly this state of affairs obtains in my womb right this minute. The ultrasound people say it's a girl, and I don't have any information about the chromosomes, because we didn't do an amnio.
You can mix and match the gendered clothing at any age if you have enough style Down Under.
It must be difficult not pointing out that that's a wicked retahded name to give a baby.
While I am in a pissy mood, I should mention that I strongly dislike the use of the word "retarded" in that context.
I do worry that I'd do a bad job of supporting an intersexed child -- everything, including language, is so deeply gendered that I feel sure I'd fuck up enormously. Raising a kid who later identifies as transgendered doesn't stress me out at all, but to be in a position where you're being presumptuous from the very start to assign any gender at all seems very hard to do right.
Yeah, I was figuring that the Jimmy Fallon/Boston/SNL sketch made it okay in context, but still, wasn't a good thing to say. Sorry about that, Will.
you're being presumptuous from the very start to assign any gender at all seems very hard to do right.
Is that what's recommended? Because that does really seem as if it would be hard. I'd think you'd mostly be okay with staying away from damaging surgery, picking your best guess at likely gender of identification at birth, and being prepared to be flexible in response to the kid. Not that it wouldn't be hard, but I bet you'd manage fine. (All advice contained herein is based on total ignorance.)
It depends on the nature of the intersexing, rather. But it's pretty easy to be in a position where there's something at least a little presumptuous about the choices you make.
120: Not meaning to pile on LB at all (because the reference does indeed make sense), but thanks for saying this, Will. I have a hard time getting my courage up to point it out when I see it even though it bothers me quite a bit.
I just assumed she was being anti-Semitic. Again.
Welcome to parenting.
Well, yes, I know. For some reason intersex conditions are the thing I've chosen to vaguely fret about in this particular way.
And I certainly fret unproductively about all sorts of stuff; that 'Welcome to parenting' was meant to be supportive about the fact that you're stuck being presumptive with your kids, rather than dismissive. But I seem to be hitting a bad run of saying unfortunate things here. Perhaps doing some work would be a good idea.
that 'Welcome to parenting' was meant to be supportive about the fact that you're stuck being presumptive with your kids, rather than dismissive. But I seem to be hitting a bad run of saying unfortunate things here.
No no, not to worry; I read it as you intended! I would hate to drive you into the arms of work under such a misapprehension.
Perhaps doing some work would be a good idea.
Drastic measures!
I'm really not enjoying writing this brief. Some of them go smoothly, but this one is just a sticky mess.
Thanks, LB. I wasnt insinuating malice.
Nah, it's cool. I actually thought "Is this okay?" before posting 108, and went for yes given the context. Without someone mentioning that it still sounded unpleasant, I'm not going to improve my judgment on that one next time.
129: What could go wrong writing a brief when you're in a run of saying unfortunate things.
"Opposing counsel's arguments are so weak that it is surprising to see they come from a practicing attorney, rather than a member of the bench."
I think that's got some rhetorical force to it.
It's pronounced and spelled like Jimmy Fallon the porn actress.
Really, it's like naming your daughter Seka.
136: I sort of want to plagiarize that.
114
I have been told of doctors recommending termination for Turners syndrome, which is of similar severity (chromosomal abnormality in girls who are X rather than XX; associated with short but not really unusual stature; normal general intelligence but possible math/spacial learning disability; and infertility and failure to go through puberty without hormonal treatment). Again, that hits my "I don't get it -- why would you abort an otherwise wanted child over that?" reaction. So, not just weirdness about masculinity -- I think people are generally weird about sex.
"Normal general intelligence" apparently means an average IQ of 90. See here :
Girls with Turner syndrome typically have normal intelligence (i.e., mean full scale IQ of 90); ...
And there are lots of other problems. I would abort.
And if you were a woman making that decision, it'd be up to you. I'd think you were kind of weird for it, but that's nothing new.
140
As I understand it, you don't think it is weird to abort a fetus which is only unwanted because of the timing. Which is inconvenient and disruptive to be sure but I wouldn't think it would be as life-altering as having a Turner's syndrome child.
Wait, Shearer is pro-choice?
Why wouldn't he be. He probably doesn't want it publicly funded, but I can't see him caring about it much other than that.
A personal account by a woman who aborted a Turner Syndrome fetus. It seems in many cases the fetus is unlikely to survive anyway.
136 is good. Get your FE Smith on.
"Mr Smith, I have listened to your opening argument, but I am none the wiser."
"Possibly not, my Lord, but you are much better informed."
Shearer does not have children. He mentioned this when he said that he thought being a parent might make you a better school board member.
It seems in many cases the fetus is unlikely to survive anyway.
Wikipedia says 98% of Turner fetuses miscarry, and account for ~10% of spontaneous abortions in the US.
It seems odd to measure micropenii in terms of statistics rather than absolute measurement. 2.5 SD means you will always have 0.6% defined as having the condition, even when some cases are being treated as mentioned above.
145, 148: Shearer, you're talking about someone who aborted a fetus with Turners that wasn't going to survive the pregnancy. What that has to do with aborting an otherwise healthy and viable fetus with Turners, I can't imagine.
(I hadn't known about the miscarriage rate -- my acquaintance with Turners is anecdotal and personal. But for a fetus that survives until birth, I think the symptoms are still pretty much what I described, and they'd seem like a odd reason to me to terminate a pregnancy.)
Shearer, you're talking about someone who aborted a fetus with Turners that wasn't going to survive the pregnancy. What that has to do with aborting an otherwise healthy and viable fetus with Turners, I can't imagine.
The impression I have from that piece, plus a little extra reading, is that Turner syndrome alone makes it very very very likely that the pregnancy will not result in a live birth, and that while the few that do often have pretty good outcomes, there are still certainly a number of health-related complications. Especially given that high miscarriage rate, it doesn't seem like an odder choice than the choice to abort a fetus with Down syndrome.
In the piece Shearer posted, they're also dealing with ongoing fertility problems, which I bet is a common complication, as Turner syndrome is associated with advanced maternal age. I don't think you can know in the circumstances that your fetus is "otherwise healthy and viable" except by waiting around and risking an ever-later, more complicated, dangerous, and sad miscarriage later in the pregnancy. There's a big difference between deciding to abort in those circumstances and wishing you'd aborted if you make it all the way to a healthy live birth and it turns out then that the live baby has Turner syndrome.
often have pretty good outcomes
Sorry, that seems to be rather an understatement. In any case, it seems like the big issue is the high likelihood that the fetus isn't actually viable.
I just noticed that the OP says "I'll call her Sarah", and then never mentions her by name again.
Why wouldn't he be.
Because he's obstinate and disagreeable and I'm pro-choice?
153: You should also notice that barely anybody in this thread even mentions that anecdote. I thought that one was going to be the thread fodder. Although you're totally right about the sloppy writing.
The sad thing for me is the assumption that a man with a tiny penis isn't a man.
Well, unless he's a tiny man.
He could be an elf! They're very small.
151: Yeah, this gets back to Will's 77 and my 80 -- that it really is the decision of the people involved, and getting judgmental at all without really all the facts (which you will almost never have) is a serious, presumptuous, mistake (which I have been at least getting close to, and if I haven't been making it, it's only been because I'm talking hypothetically about a situation where I would know really all the facts). The story I'd heard anecdotally (told long after the fact) was, if I'd understood it correctly, about a doctor recommending abortion where the fetus was known to be "otherwise healthy and viable". If the situation were "All we know is Turners syndrome, 98 out of 100 you're going to have a late miscarriage", that'd seem very different.
(Although it is perfectly possible I misunderstood the story I was told, in which case I retract my boggling at the doctor who strongly recommended abortion in that case. Given that I never knew who the doctor was, my retraction doesn't have a whole lot of effect.)
155: I was wondering how your soccer was going -- you'd been worrying about having trouble getting back into soccer shape, and bitching about your first couple of games back. This one kind of sounds as if you're feeling good about it -- true?
159: It's been going extremely well. I picked up an extra team with some students and faculty at school for a short while, so for a month I was playing ~5 games a week. That got me into great shape, and my reaction time is back up, etc.
I don't think I quite have my fastest speed yet, and I'm still having some seizing up of my hips and groin afterwards, but on the whole I'm very pleased.
160: The opening scene, where the one Namibian baby bites the other one? I totally expected the bitee to smash the biter in the head with the rock he was holding.
I love how as soon as the biter is wailing, the bitee is like, right, that's sorted. Back to rock grinding.
Yeah, there's a dispassionate air babies get sometimes in that kind of situation that's terribly endearing. I remember Sally sometimes doing that kind of "Don't get mad, get even" thing.
The patient canceled her appointment to terminate by induction of labor. Either she decided on another method, which is unlikely, or decided to keep the baby.
Wait a second. Hawai'ian Punch os a girl? But he's wearing blue in that Flickr group photo!
Although I suppose it depends on what your definition of "os" is.
Yeah, there's a dispassionate air babies get sometimes in that kind of situation that's terribly endearing. I remember Sally sometimes doing that kind of "Don't get mad, get even" thing.
It's not so much endearing as worrying. Makes me grateful that babies are all so small and weak and poorly-coordinated, or they'd kill us all.
150
Shearer, you're talking about someone who aborted a fetus with Turners that wasn't going to survive the pregnancy. What that has to do with aborting an otherwise healthy and viable fetus with Turners, I can't imagine.
In the real world you don't get to assume the best outcome.
172: In the real world you don't get to assume that Shearer's read the thread. Or is arguing ingenuously.
170: No kidding. Babies are pretty much pure id.
So did Sarah have a baby shower despite not being pregnant? Is Sarah a faculty or student? Sarah Sarah Sarah.
174: And toddlers are 99% pure id, sprinkled with moments of sweetness that stop you from spending their college fund on booze.
...smile. Won't you smile a while for me, Sarah?
No time is a good time for goodbye.
Whatever will be, will be. The future's not ours to see.
Babies are pretty much pure id.
Never trust anyone under the age of three, as Pete Townsend should have said.