Re: Tell me what's happenin'. On second thought, don't

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"As a distinguished internet blogger, I often want to strangle various commenters, technology companies, and a subset of my acquaintances. Since I'm too busy for prison and too distinguished to avert detection, I take Valium to suppress my murderous rages. Valium brand diazepam, ask for it by name."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:28 AM
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Too much to figure out too early in the morning. Geez, Google, I have work to do.* I just turned the whole thing off.

*Like, um, commenting on unfogged.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:33 AM
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If I turn it on and then immediately off again, will the ad for Google Buzz stop showing up every time I log in?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:35 AM
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How does it decide who to put in your "automatically following" list? It clearly isn't everyone I've ever sent email to from my gmail account. (Which is what Google Wave did. Hello, long-forgotten person I once exchanged emails with when I was selling a TV on Craigslist!)


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:39 AM
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Because I'm stodgy, old, and easily confused, can someone explain what Google Buzz is in short simple words?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:41 AM
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4: I was wondering that also. I went in and shut-off all following and followers, but I don't know why they picked the four people they automatically selected. They are all people I have e-mailed frequently in the past few weeks, but it isn't even that whole group.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:42 AM
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And can someone explain to me which part of the donkey is the better part?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:43 AM
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7: The answer is situational. Are you in Tijuana?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:43 AM
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I think Blume has the right idea. I've turned off the Buzz.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:48 AM
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Can you tell me how your turned off the Buzz? I can't find the option.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:51 AM
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can someone explain what Google Buzz is in short simple words?

Buzz is Google's version of Facebook (and Twitter, and Tumblr, and…). You and your fellow Buzzers post status updates, pictures, and links, to which you and your fellow Buzzers can append comments. If a post you originated or commented on is updated, it pretends to be an email and sneaks into your inbox.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:53 AM
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I like Buzz. Being in my inbox works for me. I posted a bit on my impressions in the Facebook thread if anyone really cares.

To turn it off go to the very bottom of the page in GMail and you'll see an option to do so.

Also, Chrome is a very good browser.

That's enough Google love for now.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:55 AM
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6: mine was a list of only seven people, only one of whose name I even recognized. I had to search my gmail to figure out who the other six people are. And I use my gmail account for everything, so there were plenty of regular correspondents left off. Totally bizarre.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:55 AM
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So, it's better than Facebook mostly because only the early adopters are on it yet, and you don't need to worry about friending your mom?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:56 AM
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It's better than Facebook because Google are cooler (strangely) than Facebook. If you're not cool, what are you?


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:57 AM
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15: Me?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:58 AM
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But will W. Breeze be able to continue his study of Unfoggeders on Google?


Posted by: Will | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:58 AM
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12.2: Thanks. I didn't notice it down there. I may keep it on my personal gmail account, but there's no way I want it on my work one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:59 AM
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I was thinking "uncool", but if that's your answer we can go with that.

17: Only if you "follow" me on Buzz.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:01 AM
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Yes, the automatic following thing is weird. The only thing I can think of that the people on my list have in common is either that I invited them to Gmail in the early days or in one case, that it's a semi-anonymous account of my own which I set up out of my regular one. But none of them are particularly frequent correspondents.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:02 AM
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and you don't need to worry about friending your mom?

But if you email with your mom, you might have to worry about taking her off your 'automatically following' list.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:25 AM
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A while back someone in my contact list died but I didn't delete their entry, for search-related reasons. Now this person is following me in Google Buzz posthumously. Discomfiting! To my original list of improvements I add, "Button to mark contacts as deceased."


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:38 AM
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following me in Google Buzz posthumously

Button to put little crosses and wreaths of garlic around your account.

When they start posting "Braiins, braiins," it's probably time to hide them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:40 AM
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I recently emailed someone. I then went to his homepage, followed a link to a blog (by another person) and read that he'd died less than 24 hours ago. Not someone I knew at all, but it was weird.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:41 AM
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Aha! That's what Google Buzz needs, is apps. Oh wait, no.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:42 AM
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How about "Button to mark contact as way too into their cats?"


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:42 AM
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How about "Button to mark contact as way too into their cats?"

The developers figured it would be redundant, considering the population of people who spend all day on the Internet.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:43 AM
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Or for the deceased: Cats way too into them!


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:46 AM
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I wish this post had a "like" button.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:47 AM
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_____
| Like |
|____|


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:49 AM
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I wish I had several million dollars!


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:50 AM
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My checks are every bit as functional as my ASCII art.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:51 AM
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PSA for those of you who thought that clicking "No thanks, go to my inbox" when you logged into Gmail was enough.

It was not enough. Buzz is still on. You have to go to the bottom of your Gmail page as indicated by W. Breeze, and click "Turn buzz off."


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:52 AM
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M/tch: easy! Get somma these:

http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/06/zimbabwe_dollars.jpg


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:53 AM
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Check out this madness: people who habitually get to Facebook by typing "facebook login" into Google got sent to this blog entry, took it to be some new FB interface, and generated hundreds of comments of belligerent foolishness.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:06 AM
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36: LLLOLLOLOL


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:12 AM
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Inneresting. Buzz doesn't vet the addresses of people you want to follow. For example, right now I'm following doesntexistfoofoofoo983274234@gmail.com.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:13 AM
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Oh God, not the type "google" into google twattery...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:18 AM
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36 is amazing. I especially like all the comments about how much effort they put into "learning" Facebook and now they have to do it all over again.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:22 AM
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39: If you type "altavista" into altavista, the first hit is google.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:23 AM
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39: But if typing 'google' into Google isn't how you google Google, how do you google Google? Should I google "google Google" to find a page explaining how?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:25 AM
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Google google Google google google google Google google.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:26 AM
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Buffalo.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:27 AM
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I typed "Facebook login" into Google and saw that Facebook is indeed now the first hit. The third hit is "Facebook Login & Help", "Where People Go To Learn Facebook". I find this very amusing, for some reason.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:28 AM
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Google my wife—please!


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:28 AM
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"my wife please" is not a good thing to Google.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:30 AM
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The first hit for SB's wife is a four year old post on We1n/r's blog. SB's wife has left the internet.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:34 AM
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39: But if typing 'google' into Google isn't how you google Google, how do you google Google?

I use yahoo for that.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:39 AM
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To find droodles, google sound droodles.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:40 AM
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Buzz has me following a bunch of people who used to comment here more often. Maybe Google's just trying to get the band back together, Blues Brothers-style.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:50 AM
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#51. How is the Gayatollah these days?

6. Get Edwin Aldrin to advertise this thing.


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:02 AM
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I turned it off. FB is more than enough social crap for someone who isn't all that sociable and I don't want social software integrated into my email program.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:16 AM
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||

I thought the point of prophecy was that it's inevitable.

|>


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:56 AM
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54: I thought the point of prophecy was that acting in some manner because of a prophecy will cause the prophecy to come true. At least that's what you get from Dumbledore and the Thebian trilogy.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:00 AM
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55: I SEE THAT NOW.


Posted by: OPINIONATED OEDIPUS | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:11 AM
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ACTUALLY, COME TO THINK OF IT, NO I DON'T. THINGS HAVE BEEN KIND OF HARD TO SEE GENERALLY LATELY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED OEDIPUS | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:13 AM
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55: I don't see how that could possibly be true. 56 either, for that matter.


Posted by: OPINIONATED MACBETH | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:14 AM
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MY VISION TROUBLE LATELY TAKES THE FORM OF SPOTS. CAN'T SEEM TO GET RID OF THEM.


Posted by: OPINIONATED LADY MACBETH | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:21 AM
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OPINIONATED LADY MACBETH has a detached retina?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:22 AM
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55: I feel like that's a natural development from Greek smart-alecks saying "OK, so I won't go to Corinth! You're kinda stupid telling me all this, aren't you, oracle?"


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:23 AM
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36 makes me sad, angry, and then sad again.


Posted by: emdash | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:24 AM
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62: Cry, cry, fume, cry.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:27 AM
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I've started thinking of Google Buzz as Google Breeze, by association with W. Breeze. "Google Breeze" sounds like a wine cooler. I know, while it's indulging in frolics far, far from Core Competency Land, Google should start selling branded malt liquor.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:31 AM
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54: So they can be proactive when they perceive a problem. That's a start.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:33 AM
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36 makes me sad, angry, and then sad again.

Why angry? I think it's the funniest thing I've seen in at least a month.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:34 AM
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36 makes me sad, angry, and then sad again.

Don't be sad or angry, emdash. That isn't really Facebook! Follow the instructions they give halfway down the page and you'll be able to log in just like before.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:36 AM
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64: And Google Glögg (a false palindrome!).


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:36 AM
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EMDASH LIKED THE OLD FACEBOOK SING IN.............


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:37 AM
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And Google Glögg

The consumption of which may increase the apparent hottness of the people around you, a phenomenon known as "Glöggle Goggles".


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:43 AM
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34: PSA for those of you who thought that clicking "No thanks, go to my inbox" when you logged into Gmail was enough.

It's very, very weird that it's opt-out rather than opt-in.

Buzz has set me up to follow just one person, and that person is myself. I don't recall emailing myself from my gmail account very often, but hey, at least I've managed a completely closed circuit.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:44 AM
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Glöggle Goggles

Surely you mean Google Glöggle Goggles, a condition in which not only is everyone around you apparently hotter than you'd expect, but also very easy to locate.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:45 AM
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The funny thing for me is that my only gmail address is one I literally just signed up for, and have only emailed Buck and my dad from. I don't think I'm following either of them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:46 AM
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It's very, very weird that it's opt-out rather than opt-in.

Our water system just set-up a program to sell insurance for sewer line repairs (the line from the house to the main that the homeowner is responsible for). It isn't a bad idea, I suppose. However, the insurance cost ($5/month) is automatically added to your water bill unless you opt out and the company providing the insurance is a brand new one created by political insiders connected to the people who run the fucking water authority. No other companies were allowed to bid to offer the insurance. Once the revolution starts, I'm going to have so much trouble deciding where to start throwing rocks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:50 AM
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73: You mean literally as opposed to figuratively just signing up, I presume, since you're literate, but I'm not sure what exactly it would mean to figurately sign up for facebook. Is that a euphemism of some sort? Please explain.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:55 AM
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Brock, is that really you? How'd the move go? Were you unveiled by the post-that-wasn't?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:56 AM
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Literally applied to 'just' -- like, I did it last week. I have a hotmail account for blogging stuff, and a yahoo account for personal use that gets so much spam that I miss real mail in it. So last week I got a new gmail account for real life personal contacts, and I figure if I don't shop or donate with it, it should remain fairly spamless for a while.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:57 AM
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Looking back at that, I suspect I have been trolled. You understood 73 perfectly well and just wanted to see if you could make me explain it in mindnumbing detail. Apparently you can. Hrmph.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:59 AM
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74: Sell them opt-out rock-impact insurance instead. That's where all the money is.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:59 AM
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76: Yes, it's literally me. The move was fine, if sort of still in process (boxes!), and the unveiling was avoided. Work's been a bitch so far, by which I mean it's been difficult to find a lot of time to be left alone to goof off on the internet. But that will come soon, I hope.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:00 PM
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Good to see you back, Brock.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:01 PM
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Literally applied to 'just' grates.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:02 PM
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I don't think that can have been it, because I don't think you have my spammed-up address -- the one I give out here, ElizardB@hotmail.com is blogging only and doesn't get much spam. (What it does get it largely Thai, for some reason. I think it's Thai, anyway. Curly looking.) I probably put it aside to answer later and then got busy and forgot. Was it interesting?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:04 PM
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82: Eh, honor is overrated. I'm going to open the guessing with the traditional: was it "titties"?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:05 PM
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What it does get it largely Thai

On the iPad Thai, there's an app for that. Mmmm. iPad Thai.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:06 PM
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Why would KR be sending LB pictures of his titties, Motch? That doesn't make sense.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:06 PM
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I think it's Thai, anyway. Curly looking

I'm pretty sure he's not Thai, racist.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:08 PM
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83: But does it grate shit onto pastry?


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:09 PM
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Oh, Lasik. Sorry, I forgot to reply -- really, the possibility of lifelong dry eyes puts me off pretty seriously.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:10 PM
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Apropos this and the previous facebook thread, the NYRB's recent piece is a worthwhile read. He makes too much of the facebook-as-suburban-development analogy, I think, but the bit on Facebook Connect is interesting.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:10 PM
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91: I refuse to read the NYRB online. It's dead trees or nothing for me.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:18 PM
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94: So is it dead trees or is it nothing?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:21 PM
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94, 91: It's funny, I was just reminding myself that I'd really like to renew that particular dead tree subscription.

Thanks for the link, Jesus.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:21 PM
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94: If you're worried about not killing enough trees, I have a company selling "tree offsets." For every paper subscription you replace with on-line reading, we'll burn two trees and send a check to Georgia Pacific.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:24 PM
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Actually, if I sent the check to the publication, that might be a business plan or a semi-trendy non-profit. (I suppose there would also be no reason to burn the trees aside from the general fun of big fires.)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:34 PM
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aside from the general fun of big fires

Not as fun as throwing rocks though. Maybe you could sell hit-by-a-rock offsets to landlords, capitalist running dogs, and the like.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:38 PM
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91 is indeed interesting. I like the comparison of Mark Zuckerberg to Robert Moses.

There's a gap between observation and analysis, though -- the article is quite astute in many of its observations, but the conclusions range from banal to laughably implausible:

If Facebook doesn't continue to improve its privacy options, members may well leave for a site that will. As Facebook's privacy settings grow ever more sophisticated, and especially as members become more adept at using them, a new era in privacy on social networks will begin.

Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:42 PM
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I refuse to read the NYRB online. It's dead trees or nothing for me.

The NYRB has a blog and is on Twitter.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:43 PM
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Someone should write an app that automatically sends every post and tweet from the NYRB to a printer, prints them out, and sends them to subscribers.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:45 PM
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97: I'm somewhat curious about how many trees a subscription to the NYRB kills. For example, if I don't use paper towels, like ever, can I subscribe to the NYRB without too much guilt?

What about if I re-purpose my NYRB back issues to a cool coffee-shop once I'm done with them? (I have recently hauled out a two-foot-high stack of them going back three years, and you know, their content is still of interest, and I'd adore a coffee-shop that provided back issues for reading, if coffee-shops still do that.)


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:46 PM
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The NYRB has a blog and is on Twitter.

I would have expected you, of all people, to understand my foibles in this regard, nosflow.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:52 PM
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I understand them, Joshua.

I merely wanted to emphasize how foible-riffic they are.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:53 PM
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Despite having never before seen the word in print, I'm certain that it is spelled "foible-rific."


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:58 PM
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My foibles are lovingly hand-crafted by a team of artisans working in the style of the foible makers of Belle Époque Paris.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 12:59 PM
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In the past, when I wrote comments by typing on a computer's keyboard, I attempted to remove errors. There was sufficient distance between me and the comment-producing machinery that I felt the result could not properly be said to isssue from my hand. Now, however, that I have started to craft the comments with assiduous diligence by sending hand-made packets to the server, I am careful always to include at least one error, to remind myself against thinking that I could ever achieve a creation as perfect as God's.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 1:02 PM
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My first day reading unfogged from my new job!

The people in the next office from mine are out, so I'm using the desk of one of them which means that I can have my laptop facing the wall. My coworker and I share a desk, and my back is to the door opening on the hallway, and people frequently walk through our office.

I don't have that much to do today, since I'm waiting on someone to get back to me and have done everything I can do until then.

I'm going to goof off until 4 and then take off for the gym. I'm loving that.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 1:22 PM
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Congratulations, BG.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 1:31 PM
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98: All depends on what you're trying to offset.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 1:40 PM
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I have recently hauled out a two-foot-high stack of them going back three years, and you know, their content is still of interest, and I'd adore a coffee-shop that provided back issues for reading, if coffee-shops still do that

In a library, three years back usually means microfilm. (Or the online version, if the institution subscribes.)


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:09 PM
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112: Okay, but FA, I don't know what that has to do with whether we'd like to have coffee-shops with paper back issues of the NYRB available for reading.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:39 PM
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A coffee shop with a microfilm reader and collection would be a novel concept, no?


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:45 PM
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Or a library with pastries.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:47 PM
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Pitt's library has pastries.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:49 PM
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So does the Carnegie Library.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:49 PM
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I approve of parsimon's idea. I also approve of the dead-tree version of the NYRB, but I think it's pretty great that a subscription plus twenty bucks gets you the entire archive online.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:50 PM
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116, 117: But not in the stacks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 2:50 PM
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I like a coffee-shop that has paper back issues of good magazines freely available for perusal, and features not just pastries (since I am not a fan of them anyway), but also black bean burritos, veggie wraps, falafel, and other savory fare. Might as well throw in some smoothies and, y'know, beet juice concoctions for the weirdos.

But everybody loves a good issue of Mother Jones, right? Right? Maybe there should also be a scrabble board. It is all conducive to conversation and nibbling.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:01 PM
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But everybody loves a good issue of Mother Jones, right? Right?

This "Mother Jones" of whom you speak: is her music available on itunes?


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:12 PM
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Actually, hasn't Starbucks been in the last year or so investigating the possibility of opening franchises disguised as independent coffeeshops, complete with funky, non-cookie-cutter design?

There was a pretty hilarious NPR story about it a while ago: Starbucks sending undercover consultants into these "independent coffeshops" to observe and take notes.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:18 PM
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I just realized I had forgotten all about the Putumayo corporation. It seems like its heyday is well past us, but look, they're still putting out records, and have generated nearly 200 compilations of blandly edgy "world music" so far!


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:19 PM
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Actually, hasn't Starbucks been in the last year or so investigating the possibility of opening franchises disguised as independent coffeeshops, complete with funky, non-cookie-cutter design?

I could answer that, but then I would have to kill you.


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:23 PM
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SCDD: People also really like styrofoam cups; keeps 'em real. Keep the tables just big enough for a single laptop; this is not a circus we're running here. You get the picture.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:35 PM
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Ms. Parsimon, could I interest you in participating in one of our target consumer focus groups? Your participation would be generously remunerated, of course.


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:40 PM
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And what about her, will she be remunerated as well?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:41 PM
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126: Make me an offer. You know how to reach me.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:43 PM
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127: Mr. Nosflow, I appreciate that you are still bitter about the rejection of your more than two dozens submissions for the "What I think" campaign, but really, this is beneath you.


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:43 PM
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120: I used to work a place kind of like that in college (no microfilm, though). We used to juice random things just for kicks. The weirdest-tasting juice we ever made was broccoli. I tasted it for like three days after that. Ick.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:46 PM
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126: Splendid. I'm sure that you and Mr. McManus will make invaluable contributions to our store format development session.

Mr. McManus' suggested slogan, "You have nothing to lose but your chains", has already been incorporated into our launch campaign.


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:49 PM
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131.1: McManus is on the team? Well, alright. I can work with him.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:53 PM
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Aha! It was only a matter of time before we uncovered this latest Starbucks stratagem.


Posted by: Caribou Corporate Espionage Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:55 PM
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McManus is on the team?

But of course! How else would we come up with ideas like special dog resting corners, or our trademark blended "Benzadrinaccino"?


Posted by: SCDD | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:57 PM
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I wasn't aware that Starbucks was in need of a facelift, I must say. I imagine the economic downturn puts a damper on the sales of grande-lattes, or whatever they're called, at four bucks a pop.

The latte business is probably not like the booze business, which keeps going in ill times.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 3:59 PM
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The latte business is probably not like the booze business, which keeps going in ill times.

Hence the Benzadrinaccino, Ms. Parsimon.


Posted by: Starbucks Corporate Development Department | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:01 PM
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One of the best coffeeshops this town ever knew was dog friendly. Everybody in frickin' town met up there. Well, anybody you one might find of interest. An excellent affair.

I admit I'm not a dog fan, and some dogs were invited to leave.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:06 PM
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The latte business is probably not like the booze business, which keeps going in ill times.

Interesting question.

My brother runs a shop that makes premium ice cream and he's said that it's doing fine and that the theory he's heard is that when people can't afford to buy themselves the expensive stuff that they want they become even more attached to the (relatively) inexpensive consumable treats. I would think latte's would fall into the same category but I don't know.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:07 PM
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Ice cream, even in its non-premium form, is much tastier than a latte. I know which one I'd give up first.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:08 PM
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Benzadrinaccino

Now that I've paused to pronounce this, I ... am having a laughing fit.

Thanks. You should stick around.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:09 PM
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139: And cheap coffee is a better substitute for Starbucks (actually, it's usually straightforwardly better than Starbucks) than cheap or no ice cream is for good ice cream.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:12 PM
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I'll hazard a guess that SCDD is well known to us under another name.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:12 PM
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My brother runs a shop that makes premium ice cream and he's said that it's doing fine and that the theory he's heard is that when people can't afford to buy themselves the expensive stuff that they want they become even more attached to the (relatively) inexpensive consumable treats.

The canonical example of this is lipstick.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:12 PM
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Ice cream is less practical than coffee.

Lattes suck.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:13 PM
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I imagine the economic downturn puts a damper on the sales of grande-lattes, or whatever they're called, at four bucks a pop.

In fact, they had a big wave of store closures a little over a year ago.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:19 PM
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Some Call De Dim?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:19 PM
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I'll hazard a guess that SCDD is well known to us under another name.

No doubt. I just like this voice.

With respect to ice cream vs. lipstick vs. booze vs. lattes: the former two are occasional indulgences, I'd think, and latte-purveyors want to be a regular provider. You're just not going to keep yourself constantly provided with Starbucks products in the way that you may well keep yourself regularly stocked with the liquor store's products.

Unless you think that Starbucks coffee beans are good, I guess.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:23 PM
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146: no one you'd want to know.


Posted by: SCDD | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 4:33 PM
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One of the best coffeeshops this town ever knew was dog friendly.

This is pretty close to my idea of hell.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 5:11 PM
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149: That's it, Jesus. It's over.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 5:29 PM
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Mr. Nosflow, I appreciate that you are still bitter about the rejection of your more than two dozens submissions for the "What I think" campaign

I was standing in the kitchen, netbook on one palm, held up at shoulder height, eating cold risotto out of the pan with the other hand, and I laughed and spat risotto onto my keyboard.

The weirdest-tasting juice we ever made was broccoli. I tasted it for like three days after that.

Laydeez.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 5:33 PM
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Sometimes I really do worry about my dad.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 5:35 PM
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152: Oh, awesome.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 5:49 PM
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A latte in a big bowl is a nice lazy solitary Sunday paper drink. Good espressos and cappucinos definitely don't suck. Unfortunately they're not available at Starbucks. Still, one thing that campaigning in the middle of nowhere taught me was that Starbucks still beats your generic store drip coffee hands down. It's amazing just how vile coffee can be, and yet be sold. Addiction is a powerful thing. As for the price, I'd say cafes are like bars, except that it's easier to pour a shot of booze than of espresso, and takes less equipment too.


Posted by: terez kurwa my | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:08 PM
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Actually, hasn't Starbucks been in the last year or so investigating the possibility of opening franchises disguised as independent coffeeshops, complete with funky, non-cookie-cutter design?

Indeed. They have given them the clever names of "[blank] Street Coffee and Tea". They are well-disguised and rather nice looking, though I refuse to set foot in them because they opened one right next to my favorite local coffee shop. Though I suppose of that particular 5 block stretch can handle a Starbucks, a Peets, a Seattle's Best, three local shops, and two walk-up espresso stands, it can probably handle another one.

Think Seattle's overcaffeinated?


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:09 PM
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Starbucks owns Seattle's Best.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:10 PM
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Thanks, SB.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Starbucks stand in the grocery store, so make that 4 Starbucks-owned coffee places in 5 blocks.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:17 PM
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Starbucks lattes are awful for enemas.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:21 PM
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Now you tell me.


Posted by: Otto von Bisquick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:27 PM
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A coffee shop with a microfilm reader should have a second screen to project what the reader is reading to the whole clientele.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 6:57 PM
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160: I confess I've spied on what other people at the coffee shop have pulled up on their laptops, including a fascinating observation of someone playing Second Life. "Wow! That looks...kind of boring. There seems to be a lot of waiting around." (As I clicked Command+R to see if any new comments had appeared on a slow Saturday afternoon...)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:06 PM
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Starbucks still beats your generic store drip coffee hands down

This is true, but it's the only thing they have going for them*. My latest bitch about Starbucks is that while they advertise free WiFi, to use it you must, in fact, A) buy a Starbucks card and keep money on it, B) sign up for an AT&T account, and C) only use WiFi for an hour a day at any participating store. Fuck that shit. Fortunately, there are still some independent coffee shops locally which provide cheap coffee and unlimited WiFi. Even my favorite bar provides better WiFi than Starbucks.

(*well, that and petite vanilla scones, which I eat about once a year.)


Posted by: Populuxe | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:23 PM
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SB closed it's only downtown Missoula outfit. Couldn't compete with Liquid Planet. They have a store out by the freeway, to catch passing tourists.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:32 PM
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130: We used to juice random things just for kicks. The weirdest-tasting juice we ever made was broccoli.

I'd intended to comment on this earlier but became distracted. Now I wish to note that my earlier remark about beet juice for weirdos was a joke, a joke I say!

Because actually, the combination of beet juice and carrot juice -- if I remember correctly -- is truly fantastic. The juicing machine I once had access to broke a couple of years ago, but beet juice + carrot juice, really incredible. Liquid gold.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:49 PM
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164: We were all warned not to drink straight beet juice, because it could paralyze your tongue temporarily or something. But a couple of us got brave one day, and no dice. Tongue worked fine.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:56 PM
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I like beets, but beet juice is weird.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 7:58 PM
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I think you can probably hack together a way to keep Buzz out of the inbox by using filters in Gmail. Something like subject:buzz-->"skip the inbox and archive" would come close, although you might miss a few unrelated emails, especially if your uncle's nickname is Buzz or something. But I agree with the gist here - you shouldn't have to do all this work just to get some control over the thing.


Posted by: B | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:04 PM
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I think you have to cut the beet juice with something. This may be true for all vegetable juices (not talking about V8 juice).

I'm really forgetting the good combinations now, though beet + carrot is really good. Celery juice is obviously horrible on its own but good with other things. Think in terms of sugar content and bitterness, I guess. The bitterness of broccoli is probably why Stanley's broccoli juice was a bit much. I wouldn't try to juice broccoli in the first place.

Probably people who work in juice bars know all about this!


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:07 PM
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I like the taste of beets but they may cause consumers to excrete redly. This can be mildly distressing. I imagine the phenomenon would be even more marked upon consumption of the extracted juice.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:11 PM
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I confess I've spied on what other people at the coffee shop have pulled up on their laptops,

Today I couldn't help but think of how I must be appalling the guy sitting at the table behind me by spending like an hour and a half shopping for cloth diaper paraphernalia.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:11 PM
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It would be great if you could shut off the share feature on google reader. Especially since google automatically had me send out requests to follow a bunch of people I don't know (but whose e-mails appeared on a mass e-mailing a few times) and signed up people to follow me who I don't know, and didn't tell me either thing was going to happen.

If I'm sending "requests", you'd think the other people would have to approve them. But that would mean that I should be receiving requests and deciding whether to approve them. But that doesn't seem to be happening and they seem to be relying on you to decide to block people after the fact.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:13 PM
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171: Huh. I haven't logged in to Google Reader for a while, but thanks for the head's up.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:25 PM
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Are you new, B? Welcome. Glad you're here.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:25 PM
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Apparently one has to provide a profile and picture and some such on this Google Buzz in order to say something on it. Well, I guess that's only natural if it's supposed to be an alternative to Facebook.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:41 PM
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Are you new, B? Welcome. Glad you're here.

What makes you glad?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:41 PM
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175: B's presence. It's like you didn't read the comment.


Posted by: Turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:45 PM
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While I'm complaining about technology updates taking things out of my control, I note that firefox is now opening tabs adjacent to the one in which I click on a link to create a new tag. I don't mind having this as an option as I know many prefer it, but I liked sending tabs to the far right.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:45 PM
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Have your tabs watch more Glen Beck.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:54 PM
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That's it, Jesus. It's over.

That dogs have come between us makes me hate them all the more. In fairness to dogs, which I used to like, it's certain of their owners that are the problem.

I like the taste of beets but they may cause consumers to excrete redly. This can be mildly distressing.

Indeed. I had a bit of a shock one morning, briefly forgetting that I'd eaten large quantities of both beets and asparagus the night before.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:57 PM
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Of course, Glen Beck makes Glenn Beck look like a moderate.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 8:57 PM
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152 made me laugh out loud. The redness!


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:02 PM
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ABSOLUTELY DO NOT TAKE IN ANY THING THAT MAKES YOUR PEE LOOK FUNNY. WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT ENSUE.


Posted by: OPINIONATED GRANDMA | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:03 PM
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I didn't understand 152.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:08 PM
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183: I thought he was being silly. Like, a sad lumberjack or something.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:10 PM
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The colorant properties of beets are one of my favorite things about eating them. I'm making a beet soup right now. I can't wait!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:11 PM
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Beet soup in, beet soup out.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:24 PM
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Borschit, says I.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:25 PM
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185: Try beet juice enemas. Report back.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:25 PM
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I'm not making borscht.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:25 PM
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189: That's what you think.

Is that really asilon's dad in 152? I just hope he's acting, because if he's really all sad like that (I find him very convincing), then, well, it makes me sad.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:27 PM
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187 to 189


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:28 PM
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neb's beat. Beet red. And tired of sex, so yay, neb.

(Someone had to do it.)


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:33 PM
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I feel as if I have escaped from a mad and frenzied master.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 9:38 PM
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It would be great if you could shut off the share feature on google reader.

You can, if I understand what you're wishing for. Go to the Buzz interface and click on the "Connected Sites" link next to your own name. That will bring up a thing where you can edit shared items, and thereby not-share Google Reader sites.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:25 PM
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Yes! to 194. I just took note of that: use it well, people, use it freely.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:32 PM
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When I try to do that, or edit anything about connected sites, it tries to force me to create a profile. I also think it only controls whether buzz shares google reader; the google reader interface itself does not seem to have any sharing on/off settings.

I'm not so worried about followers following me since for now I don't plan on doing anything with either service; it's the broadcasting of my and others' contact lists without choice or warning that really bothers me.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:34 PM
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Further to 196: buzz, which I just turned back off, showed 0 connected sites for me. Yet reader shows I've started following, or trying to follow about 12 new people and 3 or 4 new people have started following me.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:37 PM
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Hrm, the Google Reader thing is an unknown.

I will say that the name "Google Buzz" has already begun to get on my nerves. I'm imagining the thinking-cap types at Google saying to themselves, or to each other, "Well, people really didn't seem to mind to idiocy of a name like Twitter, go figure, so maybe let's go for a name kind of like that, evoking meaningless ... buzz! Eureka!"


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 10:44 PM
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What gets me is that Yahoo has had a similar thing called "Yahoo Buzz" for a while now, not that anyone uses it. The name is stupid and derivative.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:28 PM
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I can't believe places like "google" and "yahoo" would stoop so low as to come up with such a silly name. Where are the days of "inktomi" and "hot bot"? Their neighborhood has gone to rot.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-11-10 11:36 PM
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198 gets it right. There's still time for them to be edgy and creative and change it to "Boogle Guzz".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 12:18 AM
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190.2 That is really my dad in 152, and yes, all I could think of was, "What is he thinking about to make himself cry like that?!?!?!?"

I'm not sure what there is to not understand?

He has a small series of videos like that, taken with his webcam, filming him watching some of his favourite stuff on youtube. So there'll be a blank face and then a smile, or a little nod, or whatever. I guess he thought it would be, umm, interesting, to do a sad one.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 1:07 AM
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173: Thanks. Mostly a lurker. I used to post occasionally, sometimes under the handle "Googleplex Reader." That was before I was, um, forcibly ejected from the Googleplex, though. Now I mostly drink to occupy my time.


Posted by: B | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 1:20 AM
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Your dad rules, asilon.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 1:22 AM
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For the record - and yes, I am one of those people who still uses yahoo as a home page, though my start page is a blank page - yahoo's buzz appears to be a sort of a centrally run news/links/blog service, not a social-networking mess.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 1:28 AM
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204 makes me want to go WAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 2:14 AM
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Re the recession and benzadrinaccino: you could have a cause-and-effect confusion here. If people start consuming lots of benzadrinaccino, they'll feel hyper and cheerful and optimistic and confident and go out and buy stuff, thus kick-starting the economy.
(This idea stolen from the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers)
And if the economy starts to overheat, you need to switch to selling Ritalattes.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 5:18 AM
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204: I wonder if they really use espresso for the enema. You'd have to make the coffee and then, hopefully, cool it. Generic instant coffee looks pretty much the same and could be made with warm water. Nobody is going to take a taste out of the tube.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 5:53 AM
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Nobody is going to take a taste out of the tube.

Five will get you fifty that somewhere in this Great Series of Tubes is a video which will give you the lie.


Posted by: OFE | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 5:58 AM
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Espresso has less caffeine, though. And perhaps the quick, artisanal brewing gives it some desirable new agey property or other -- e.g., the water pressure aligns the quantum foam.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 6:22 AM
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211: I believe that's a myth. The beans have less caffeine, but the brewing process makes the coffee more concentrated, so you end up with significantly more caffeine per volume in espresso.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 6:40 AM
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My understanding was more caffeine per volume, less per serving with espresso. And I was assuming an Americano enema.


Posted by: Bave Dee | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 6:57 AM
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214: ahh, that hadn't occured to me. I was thinking you'd put a quadruple espresso in the turkey baster. An Americano would indeed be a delicate, afternoon enema.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:05 AM
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I'm thinking an energy drink enema, with its refreshing carbonated effervescence, would be a better option. Plus, you know, coffee breath. As it were.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:12 AM
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Bave is right, though there are a whole host of variables, starting from the type of bean used. Crappy supermarket coffee will have a very large percentage of the cheaper and much more caffeinated robusta beans rather than arabica. Googling around suggests that other things being more or less equal, drip will have around a third of the caffeine per volume as espresso. So that twelve ounce cup of drip equals about four espressos. But things vary enormously.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:13 AM
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Full Throttle Tinglenema.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:13 AM
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Xtreme 24 Hour Enema


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:22 AM
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Then there's the kind they used to typically make in Poland: a scoop or two of bad coarse ground coffee put in a glass which is then filled with boiling water. For those who like their enemas gritty.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:23 AM
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That's "high in fiber", actually.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:24 AM
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Brown Bull


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 7:28 AM
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Rockstir


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 8:46 AM
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Mountain Doo-Doo


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 8:47 AM
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Coca Colonic


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:04 AM
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Dr. Pooper


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:10 AM
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Sierra Fist


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:12 AM
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Why don't one of you go get a coffee enema and report back on what they used?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:15 AM
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I'll swing by Starbutts at lunch, Moby.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:19 AM
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Don't forget the nutmeg.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:19 AM
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How did we miss Crapuccino? Minus ten points, everyone.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:24 AM
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CRAPPUCCINO FOR MY BUNGHOLE!

WHERE I COME FROM, MY PEOPLE HAVE BUT ONE BUNGHOLE!

IS THIS NICARAGUA?


Posted by: CORNHOLIO | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:27 AM
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Pump-Can Spice Latte


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:51 AM
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Huh. The usual drink I get here works without modification: The Mudcup*.

*Elsewhere, I've heard it called a Red Eye, which also works, as well as a Depth Charge, which also works.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 9:56 AM
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Aaaaand apparently informing you all that I drink an enema every morning is enough to kill the blog. Oops.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 10:04 AM
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No comments for eight minutes isn't the death of the blog, Stan. Give it time. Go easy.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 10:05 AM
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If I ever start a coffee shop, I'll call it "The Copacetic Diuretic."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 10:10 AM
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I was going to comment, but now I see that Stanley has declared the blog dead, so I guess I won't.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 10:46 AM
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238: WMYBSALM/tch?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 02-12-10 10:50 AM
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