Forthwith, I discovered coffee beans, a coffee grinder, coffee filters, a funnel, a kettle, and two large coffee mugs.
Wow. It's like you're living in Mad Max times out there.
I think this is Stanley's way of telling us he's in a low-pressure long-distance relationship with his recently-divorced high school crush! Congrats to you both.
I guess his mother isn't Chinese.
1. innit, though? next we'll learn he only had three kinds of toilet paper.
I was undeterred and immediately set about taking inventory of potentially useful items in the pursuit of coffee preparation. Forthwith, I discovered coffee beans, a coffee grinder, coffee filters, a funnel, a kettle, and two large coffee mugs.
These MacGyver episodes are losing a bit of the drama they used to have.
Sarah Palin doesn't know "blood libel" means, does she?
3: You know, that's going to sound even funnier when I call for a Virginia meetup in a month or so...
6: I thought that was DK's song.
Also, I'm finding this post really confusing. Why did Stanley filter the coffee twice? Do people do this? I've never heard of such a thing.
Err, I take the first part back, now that I actually watched/listened to the link.
Every song those guys do is like those Onion articles that really should only be headlines, but keep going on.
We have a Jura coffee grinder which I love like it's one of my children.
These MacGyver episodes
Bah, real heroes walk among us.
'Real Life Superhero' Gets His Nose Broken In Street Fight
KOMO reports that the incident occurred Saturday night, when Jones saw two men "swearing at each other and like about to fight." The mask-and-body-armor-wearing Jones stepped in to intervene, but one of the men started "swinging" at him. So Jones put him in a headlock, and called 911. That's when the other man pulled out a gun. Jones let go, and was kicked in the face by the man he had just been holding. Both men got away...But Jones, who said that he turned down reality show offers from the Discovery Channel, MTV and A&E, sounded undaunted. "I train for these situations," he said. "I don't just come out willy nilly and run out on the streets."
Why did Stanley filter the coffee twice? Do people do this? I've never heard of such a thing.
In my pre-coffee mindset, I was making it stronger by passing it through twice. This might be completely backwards for all I know.
If you had poured the water over the coffee and then subsequently filtered that, it would have been akin to the action of a french press. Also, why don't you buy her a french press?
We have a Jura coffee grinder which I love like it's one of my children.
I like my coffee grinder like I like my children: small, noisy, and slightly pretentious.
If you have coffee grounds and no equipment, boiling water in a pot, putting an appropriate amount of grounds in and turning it off and letting it sit for a couple of minutes to settle, and then pouring carefully makes a perfectly reasonable cup of coffee. There's a little grounds in the bottom, but no worse than a lot of french press coffee.
Further to 17: My dad told us that when he was in WWII, the bandleader Sammy Kaye visited his unit and they gave him coffee that Kaye said was the best he'd ever had. According to Dad they didn't have a percolator or filter so they boiled ground beans and strained the brew through someone's undershirt.
As kids we assumed that Dad or one of his buddies had taken off his undershirt for the straining, but he clarified not long before he died that it was a clean undershirt.
I like my coffee grinder like I like my children: equipped with whirring blades, covered in brownish powder, and able to fit back in the cupboard when I don't need them.
The filtering it twice thing is a mistake, but you would need to do something to balance out the strength of the two cups. For next time, I would suggest a sequence of coffee extraction as 1/2 of cup1 ==> all of cup2 ==> second half of cup1.
If you had poured the water over the coffee and then subsequently filtered that
Isn't that what I did? I'm confused.
Also: while I'm enjoying the rampant speculation, in fact the place I awoke was my house. (As for what had happened to my normally-at-home French press, now that might be cause for salacious speculation.)
Forthwith, I discovered coffee beans, a coffee grinder, coffee filters, a funnel, a kettle, and two large coffee mugs.
Did you find all these items arranged together, perhaps kept in the same place? Because that might suggest that this chemistry set approach to coffee brewing is the favored method of your host. That would be endearing, but also sad.
As for what had happened to my normally-at-home French press, now that might be cause for salacious speculation.
Eww. Don't use it for that!
I like my coffee grinder like I like my children:
COVERED IN BEES!
21: well, no, I mean, pour it directly over the beans and let it steep.
Arguably I should drink more coffee before trying to discuss making it.
I like my coffee grinder like I like my children: with stainless steel trim, perspex container, and a high torque motor.
18: My uncle, in the South Pacific, didn't mention coffee. He did say they would put great loads of beer on nets on the outside of a plane and fly around until they made cold beer. They didn't share it with bandleaders, though.
I'm not sure I understand the OP. Surely the equipment you describe is precisely "a proper coffee making device".
It was the wrong kind of funnel.
29: It's not a proper coffee making device unless it gurgles.
30: I was thinking that also, but then why would you have a coffee grinder and coffee filters if you didn't have a coffee-funnel thing. I could see having a coffee grinder by itself (for spices, etc.), but not with the filters.
A child is NOT a coffee making device.
I guess his mother isn't Chinese.
But was she in China, rob?
Also: while I'm enjoying the rampant speculation, in fact the place I awoke was my house.
I was wondering why the place had coffee beans, a grinder, and filters, but no proper coffee-making device. I was also thinking that maybe you were playing Myst: Home Edition or something like that.
33: If you were a Chinese mother, your child would be able to make coffee.
I could see having a coffee grinder by itself (for spices, etc.), but not with the filters.
Huh? Plenty of people grind their own beans at home and then use said grounds in a filtered drip coffee maker.
re: 17
Isn't that just a variation on yer usual turkish method?
37: maybe it was a pee funnel as opposed to a coffee funnel.
38: If there was a drip coffee maker, then the whole point of the post is moot.
So, what did happen to your normally-at-home French press? Did it run away with the spoon or something salacious like that?
as 1/2 of cup1 ==> all of cup2 ==> second half of cup1.
Then mix with half a cup of hydrogen peroxide and pour it in your ear.
37: I have a funnel that I use for putting anti-freeze in the car. I'm all set to make coffee, unless I should rinse it a bit.
re: 34
Because for a lot of people filters plus a funnel is the usual method? Not my own method of choice -- which is just a normal press -- but I have a little funnel and some filters at work for when I want to make a single mug of coffee.
The March Hare took the watch and looked at it gloomily: then he dipped it into his cup of coffee, and looked at it again: but he could think of nothing better to say than his first remark, `It was the best funnel, you know.'
And why do you have filters if you normally use a french freedom press? I call shenanigans.
If there was a drip coffee maker
One of my housemates previously had a drip coffee maker, but it died. Filters were left over, hence the filters. (This is just like Columbo!)
The Kitchen
There are coffee beans here.
There is a coffee grinder here.
There is a funnel here.
There is a filter paper here.
> inv
You have:
no coffee
pocket fluff
thing your aunt gave you that you don't know what it is
towel
Maybe if we combine the coffee beans with btock's "bean thing"....
34, 45: Yeah, my parents use the grounds, funnel and filter approach as standard. They don't usually grind their own beans, but they do sometimes. Personally I'm more of a cafetiere kind of guy. Filters require too much busywork.
Isn't that just a variation on yer usual turkish method?
Due to my history, I am obliged to say, "you mean Greek coffee!!!1!!".
Also, Turkish coffee requires grinding the beans into fine dust. "Regular" ground coffee brewed in the method LB describes is commonly called "cowboy coffee" around these parts.
So, what did happen to your normally-at-home French press?
I'm staying mum on this point; it's…too personal for me to tell the internet.
I am obliged to say, "you mean Greek coffee!!!1!!".
Actually he means Macedonian coffee.
(ducks for cover)
45, 53: I was thinking by "funnel" he meant a run-of-the-mill funnel, not one of those ones purpose-built for brewing coffee.
re: 53
Yeah re: the faffing about; plus I prefer the taste from cafetiere. I have a double walled metal one because I kept breaking glass ones. It's great as the coffee stays hot for ages, or at least as long as it takes me to drink the two huge mugs I need to function properly in the morning.
I have a blade grinder, but I never use it for anything except spices as it doesn't grind coffee evenly, and I'm happy enough with buying stuff ready ground.
Thanks to the knife-crime island people, I had to go to Wikipedia to learn that cafetiere is just a French Press.
I have a double walled metal one because I kept breaking glass ones
ttaM drinks coffee so strong that it actually headbutts its way out of the cafetiere.
One of my housemates previously had a drip coffee maker, but it died. [...] (This is just like Columbo!)
Did it die? Or was it murdered?
56: you gave it to the horse, didn't you?
I was thinking by "funnel" he meant a run-of-the-mill funnel
To further muddy the waters, I'm pretty sure it was a pickling funnel that had never been used for pickling. Or if it had been used for pickling, it had been thoroughly cleaned. Or I have crappy taste buds and had pickle coffee for breakfast.
re: 60
We're a lot closer to the actual France so you have to expect that our language will contain more actual French.
re: 61
Heh. Glass cafetieres seem to be made from some sort of cack-handedness-inducing glass. I'm not generally clumsy, and I can't remember the last time I broke household crockery except f'cking coffee makers, where I was buying new glass liners every 6 months or so.
Cafetieres are indeed less faffy in terms of getting the coffee brewed, and the results are delicious, but they're harder to clean and set up for round two than a drip coffeemaker is. Also, the glass ones break far too easily. I'm tempted to get a metal one though. I like having a drip coffeemaker because it's much easier to brew a large amount of coffee for a crowd.
I brew my coffee by taking the just-roasted beans, throwing them to the floor and screaming at them.
I'm tempted to get a metal one though.
Coffee Metal Rules! (Makes that hand sign thing that the kids do.)
Yes, I've found this too. I've probably broken more cafetiere liners than, say, wine glasses, even though you'd think wine glasses would be far more flimsy. Metal's probably the way to go.
We're a lot closer to the actual France so you have to expect that our language will contain more actual French.
Given the way you lot commonly pronounce all those French loan words, I always figured it was more just a passive-aggressive way to needle the French.
I have this:
http://www.bodum.com/gb/en-us/shop/detail/1328-16/
it's good. Easy to clean, too.
On the breaking issue, it's very true. My flatmate recently broke ours. Then again, I have a "chocolatiere" made of ceramic, which is much more resilient and does the same job. Only big enough for one mug though.
re: 70
Most French loan words are just English words, no? A lot of them have been in the language for the best part of 700 years or more. Anyway, as a Scot, I'm not into that whole needling the French thing. Historically we get on.
From the Bodum link in 71:
Color: Shiny
cracks me up for some reason.
Given the way you lot commonly pronounce all those French loan words, I always figured it was more just a passive-aggressive way to needle the French.
I'm guessing the Brits pronounce "cafetiere"...let's say..."Calf-tear".
Obviously both DJ Jazzy Jeff and the French Press were American creations, but I thought their names had spread worldwide.
I bro my coffee by getting down on one knee and pouring Smirnoff Ice over it.
I used up an Amazon gift card buying all the Chemex coffee making stuff (not so much stuff: pot, thin-necked kettle, kitchen scale, filters). Previously, my morning coffee making was in a French press. The Chemex makes lovely smooth coffee, better than the French press, but I feel like I'm playing with My First Meth-Making Kit™ each morning, as I measure and tare and weigh and tare and pour very slowly and weigh and measure and tare. Oh, and there are special timers involved.
That's close to $100 in real money.
Color: Shiny cracks me up for some reason.
Me too!
73: Right. I just found it amusing on my first trip to the UK that the standard American English pronunciation of a French loan word like "filet" was much closer to standard French.
I like having a thermos carafe.
I feel like I'm playing with My First Meth-Making Kit™
The very best coffee is filtered through a diaper.
re: 81
That'll be because the word is 'fillet' and is an English word. Except in McDonalds when buying a little reconstituted slab of fish and wallpaper paste, when it's an American loan word, 'filet' pronounced 'fee-lay'.
81: "filet" is pronounced "feel-ay" in both the US and Britain. "Fillet" is a different word, spelt and pronounced differently; it's no more a French word than "mutton".
Scots actually uses a few French-derived words, especially food and kitchen type words, that the English don't: gigot and ashet for example.
Lots of 'French' words in English have been incorporated three times. Once from Norman French, a couple of hundred years later from 'central' French, and then again, recently, from modern French via some process where adopting the French pronunciation rather than the one that's been established in English for many centuries somehow gives the word a certain cachet.
I tried to get into the French press, but Le Monde just felt sort of "meh".
83: Back in college in the dorms people would put a dryer sheet over the rim of their coffee cup so that the smelll wouldn't travel.
84, 85: "Fillet" isn't even a real word.
re: 85
Yeah, and the more routine use of 'gammon' to refer to ham generally, as in 'I'll have a roll and gammon'*, among other examples.
* proper crunchy Scottish morning roll, none of yer soft floury southern pish.
All UK pronunciations are hereby refudiated: "Cholmondeley."
adopting the French pronunciation rather than the one that's been established in English for many centuries somehow gives the word a certain cachet.
Pronounced "catchit."
91: That is, it is merely a variant of fillet. They are pronounced the same, in regular English.
92: also "peedie", meaning "little", in Orcadian. (Everyone else calls a pullover a jersey; the Orcadians call it a Guernsey, or gansie. Not to be confused with a cutty Sark, of course.)
Okay forget about fillet/filet. What about gateau?
Also, only vaguely related, but back in the early days of the Iraq war there would often be interviews with US military personnel and they would talk about searching for or finding weapons caches. Pronounced "cashays", of course.
77: How is that even possible prior to morning coffee?
Pronounced "catchit."
That's just a nitch pronunciation.
re:95
They really aren't. Fillet is pronounced /fIlIt/ [with some vowel variation depending on accent] and it has been an English word since the 14th century. It's not pronounced in the French way, nor has it been since long before Columbus even set sail.
I assume you are just winding us up though, rather than being serious.
101: Winding you English up is serious business.
96: how would you confuse a sweatshirt with a bottle of whiskey?
97.2: I remember that! And oooh it makes me crazy.
Fillet is a bad example, but there are other French loan words in English that are pronounced in an entertainingly un-French manner. Ballet, pron. BA-ly?
how would you confuse a sweatshirt with a bottle of whiskey?
I think the answer is obvious.
FWIW, middle-class Americans pronouncing French loan words often sound comically wrong to me. They don't actually sound remotely French.
101: I am aware that there are definitions of 'Filet' for which the pronunciation is often "Fil-et" in U.S. English, but those are rarely used. However, I am also aware that when talking of boneless cuts of flesh for eating (or the preparation of such cuts), spoken British English is often "Fil-et" while spoken U.S. English is "fi-lay".
And the U.S. dictionary agrees with me on this.
106: Like Detroit, Des Moines, and Grand Tetons?
103: the whisky is named after the tea clipper, which was named after the fictional witch, who was named after the garment she was wearing - a cutty (short) sark (shirt). Sark is also, like Guernsey and Jersey, the name of one of the Channel Islands.
Perhaps you could condense this post for use as a facebook status update, Stanley.
middle-class Americans pronouncing French loan words
I wasn't aware that American pronunciation of French loan words was class-dependent.
re: 112
Accents are strongly class dependent. Even from supposedly classless societies in which people believe they don't have accents.
Moving away from French, I've almost decided to give up and accept that bruschetta is now an American English word pronounced "brew-SHED-uh".
re: 108
Sure, and that's fine in US English, for those who speak it. But people in Britain don't speak US English, and the British pronunciation in this case has the weight of time behind it.*
* not always the case, some US usages and pronunciations retain features since lost in British English.
114: In another ten years, somebody will make a cafeteria-grade version and it will be called shit on a shingle.
and the British pronunciation in this case has the weight of time behind it.
Now that's hard to say.
To this day, being smashed over the head with a bottle of scotch is colloquially referred to as "a touch of the short shirt shock".
113: Well, sure. But I would think the difference in the way various Americans say "ballet" or "garage" or whatever would be largely accounted for by regional/class-based vowel shifts, and wouldn't have much to do with the Frenchness of the words.
110: as well as the chief hench-program of the MCP in Tron (1982).
re: 120
What I'm getting at is that both the British and US pretentious classes often believe they are pronouncing the words in a authentically French manner, but they are both wrong.
121: That's it! From henceforward the entire Anglosphere should call sweaters / pullovers / jumpers / guernseys etc "trons". It will save a lot of confusion.
re: 118
No, its pretty obvious looking at the OED entry and the historical examples. All but a couple are clearly spelled in ways that indicate that the < t > at the end was pronounced.
116: Let's see if I understand.
You borrow a word from the French and you:
a. change one letter
b. keep the same meaning
c. change the pronunciation
d. keep the original word with roughly the original pronunciation for the same meaning.
That seems closer to borrowing a word and doing it half-assed than creating a new word.
Again: "Cholmondeley." The UK pronunciation may have the weight of time behind it, but it also has the weight of too goddamn many letters in front of it.
What I'm getting at is that both the British and US pretentious classes often believe they are pronouncing the words in a authentically French manner, but they are both wrong.
Touché!
114: Do others remember the Saiselgy-bruschetta incident? Only ghosts of it remain on the interwebs.
109 : To quote the master -
"So I drifted down to New Orleans
Where I happened to be employed
Workin' for a while on a fishin' boat
Right outside of Delacroix."
but it also has the weight of too goddamn many letters in front of it.
AU CONTRAIRE, MON FRERE!!!!!!1!!
126: keeping the same meaning, changing the pronunciation and changing one or two letters also applies to English words like "mutton", "pork", "beef", "voice", "route", "addition", "change", "entry", "announce"... you're writing off a lot of the English language there.
122: But that's not really what we're talking about -- it's the words where the American approach is to take a shot at approximating French, while the UK approach is to do something totally different. An American saying 'ballet' doesn't sound Parisian, but they're aiming at the French pronunciation in a way that a UK speaker isn't.
I, for one, think it would be fun if all of Moby's comments from now on read like they were written by Beowulf.
re: 126
As I keep saying, it's NOT a French borrowing. It's been in English for 700 years. More than half of the words in English have a similar origin. Furthermore, the French word itself has, like much of French, its origins in Latin and in most of the other languages in which the same word exists (filete, filetto, etc), they pronounce the < t > also. Setting up the French pronunciation as the orthodox one is stupid.
133: You excluded the last part: "d. keep the original word with roughly the original pronunciation for the same meaning."
There maybe other examples but not many. Lots of French words have lead to multiple English words (e.g. hospital/hostel/hotel), but those meanings vary quite a bit despite the same root.
Touché!
No, "too shay" is how it's normally pronounced and that's how you'd say it in French as well. (Fencing term, meaning "you have scored a hit on me".)
People talking about (say) Italian literature being their "for-tay", on the other hand, are arguably wrong; this is another term from swordsmanship, meaning the strong part of the blade, and is pronounced "fort" because it's French, not Italian.
137: After 700 years it should be considered stolen, not borrowed, right?
138 also to 138. Which I hold as important because of 84 and 85.
The only bad thing about Tron (1982) is that there isn't a made up language in it, so you can't prove your devotion to it/failure to fit into society by being all "Excuse me, stewardess, I speak Klingon."
Is it known whether French at the time of the Norman conquest had its modern feature of not pronouncing lots of terminal consonants?
At some point I'm going to invoke the argument from authority. Vis that I fucking have a degree in English linguistics and have spent years studying this shit. Which must be some sort of species of pwning?
141 s/b "138 also to 137."
My point is, you can't both say that the word was borrowed 700 years ago and that you have another word "filet" is pronounced (basically) the French way.
I mean, you can, but it sounds like special pleading to me.
What's the "liner" of a French Press? Mine is just a big glass mug, and then there's the metal filter thing you press down. Works great and I find it easier to clean than a filter drip machine -- just pour some water in the bottom, swirl it around, put in trash can and rinse and you're done. The machines always get filthy after a while.
I'm now wondering about the American "middle class" accent. Maybe Ttam thinks that our upper class still talks like the folk in The Philadelphia Story?
re: 143
My understanding is that the final consonants were pronounced in Norman French, yeah. However, a lot of English words with Romance roots were actually adopted a few hundred years after the Norman conquest.
re: 146
Americans do often have class identifiable features in their accents, whether they believe they do or don't. It's more noticeable with East Coast accents, I think
re: 145
Why the fuck not? And I didn't say that English had a word 'filet' pronounced the French way, as it doesn't. The only time that word is ever used in British English is in McDonalds where it's a brand name.
Speaking of USians doing funny things with foreign-ish food words, I just yesterday was looking at a lunch menu whose appetizers section included "Tachos". What are Tachos you ask yourself? Why, they're like nachos but with tater tots instead of chips, which sounded totally decadent. And delicious.
just pour some water in the bottom, swirl it around, put in trash can and rinse and you're done.
Round here, that's called hobo coffee.
I've almost decided to give up and accept that bruschetta is now an American English word pronounced "brew-SHED-uh".
Noooo. Actually, there are weird competing imperatives in Italian food pronunciation when one goes to old school Italian NJ/NY sandwich places etc. Their Italian-American pronunciation of everything is usually bastardized Sicilian dialect. All those gabbagools and goombahs one heard on the Sopranos are what I'm talking about -- c's become g's and p's become b's, etc. So you'll sound like an asshole and be "wrong" so far as anyone in the shop is concerned if you were to walk into one of these joints and tell them you want "cah-pree-coh-lah" on your sandwich, even if someone in Florence would know what you meant. (I can't do it, and am mocked endlessly by my family. Mozzarella gets turned into something like moo-ta-dell' -- how do they tell this apart from mortadella??? -- and yet I stick with my "proper" schoolgirl Italian and get eyes rolled at me for my deep and abiding ignorance.)
148: Point is from the old French word pont.
I'm slightly incredulous that this argument is still going on, tbh. I presume it is still some sort of wind-up and I'm the one being wound-up.
I feel appropriately idiotic, but I can't figure out the other pronunciation of bruschetta.
What are Tachos you ask yourself? Why, they're like nachos but with tater tots instead of chips, which sounded totally decadent. And delicious.
This is genius.
139: in high school someone made me aware of the "fort" thing and I adjusted my pronunciation. And then adjusted it back because it's thorougly worked its way into the language as if it were Italian, and now it is an English word pronounced fortay. Pronouncing it "fort" now is like saying "I have a five-o-clock shadow because I haven't shaven." In some academic way, it's correct, but it mostly comes off as a tiny lecture or, more likely, an error.
Similarly I think 134 isn't quite right. Words like ballet have outlived their conscious Frenchness for most any American speaker. There's no attempt there to pronounce a word as it would be in French. It just was taken into American English this way before the birth of any living speaker. No American using the word "ballet" ever makes a conscious decision about whether the a is more of a schwa or an ah so as to approximate French.
re: 155
The Italian pronunciation is closer to 'broo-sKettah' I think.
154: Your capacity for incredulity is inspiring. Have you commented here before?
155: It's that Italian ch/c thing, where it flips around depending on the vowel. 'Ciao' is chow, 'cello' is chello, and 'bruschetta' is brusketta. I know this but screw it up because I don't speak Italian or say bruschetta often enough that it's in my comfortable vocabulary.
158: Distinguishing between "t" and "tt"?
I'm missing something here.
152: Their Italian-American pronunciation of everything is usually bastardized Sicilian dialect.
My grandmother, who had Italian as her first language, taught me lots of Italian words that turned out to be more "words used in this one tiny village before the radio managed to get there."
No American using the word "ballet" ever makes a conscious decision about whether the a is more of a schwa or an ah so as to approximate French.
Mmmaybe. I'd kind of think that most Americans listening to a French speaker speaking English, but pronouncing 'ballet' in French, would think not that the French speaker was using the French word rather than the English synonym, but that the French speaker was pronouncing the word correctly, and Americans generally don't get it quite right. (and might work on imitating the pronunciation).
Heebie, I think it's "brew-SHED-uh" vs "brew-SKET-uh"
148: Point is from the old French word pont.
And if you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...
149 It's more noticeable with East Coast accents, I think.
Nope.
168: I'll take it! I always wanted a bridge of my very own!
168: I looked it up on the OED and everything. It is from Old French poent or pont.
I once dated an Italian-American girl whose mother pronounced ricotta "ree-GO-thuh" which pronunciation always struck me as curious, but I never said anything because: (1) I don't speak Italian and (2) I like free lasagna and didn't want to risk cutting off the supply.
163 158: Distinguishing between "t" and "tt"?
Italian does that, but to my dumb American ear it's not all that noticeable. The main thing is the pronunciation of the 'sch', where pronouncing it like 'sh' just sounds wrong to me, even though it's pervasive.
You can call it "Brussolini" but it's still a poisonous grain based substance.
The class and American pronounciation thing is extremely complicated. Except in some of the East Coast cities and parts of the South, it's really hard to draw an inference about class from accent alone (as opposed to usage, what is being talked about, etc.).
What's the "liner" of a French Press? Mine is just a big glass mug, and then there's the metal filter thing you press down.
The liner is the glass bit.
||
Big Bunny is a hit with little Joey! He just demanded that Molly read it three times in a row.
|>
150, 156: From the Encyclopedia Britannica -
"Tachos, also called Takhor, Teos, or Zedhor, second king (reigned 365-360 bc) of the 30th dynasty of Egypt; he led an unsuccessful attack on the Persians in Phoenicia. Tachos was aided in the undertaking by the aged Spartan king Agesilaus II, who led a body of Greek mercenaries, and by the Athenian fleet commander Chabrias. Tachos, however, insisted on leading the Egyptian army himself, and Agesilaus, after quarreling with his ally, supported a military revolt in Egypt that placed the young pretender Nectanebo II on the throne. Tachos fled to Iran..."
Regime change, 30th Dynasty edition. And not a mention of tater tots.
Further to 173:
Italian does that, but to my dumb American ear it's not all that noticeable.
I guess it is to Italians, though. Once I was with a group of people looking for some restaurant with 'bocca' in the name, and we were pronouncing it as 'boca', and when we finally found the place the one Italian in the group started laughing and said "oh, bocca! you all kept saying boca and I didn't understand!"
Anyway, prescriptivity re: pronunciation is dumb in general.
177: To be fair, Egypt didn't even have a potato back then.
re: 178
Different consonant phonemes to an Italian. Ditto things like single versus double-r phonemes in some languages. I can hear that one most of the time, I think, but I struggle with hearing aspiration in Indian languages
154, 179: This is probably not the time to tell you that, as my inner voice can't do Scottish, your comments sound to me like Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins.
(Now if only I'd thought to get some milk.)
Did you look around for a cow?
181: The rising, falling, rolling, or whatever "tones" in Chinese are completely beyond my hearing.
172: The Italian-American pronunciation of ricotta with which I'm familiar is "rih-GOTT" -- employing the c-to-g rule and the lop-off-the-end-of-the-word rule.
178: Absolutely, in Italian it is phonemic.
174: Ok, Opinionated American South was me, and to my ear the south and the northeast are the easiest to pick out, but I suspect if one spent some time in other regions, class-o-lects would eventually strike one's ear. I know my ear started to pick up some of it in the midwest...in Chicago "d" for "th" is an easy one.
re: 182
That's awlroit, Mary Poppings.
Mmmaybe. I'd kind of think that most Americans listening to a French speaker speaking English, but pronouncing 'ballet' in French, would think not that the French speaker was using the French word rather than the English synonym, but that the French speaker was pronouncing the word correctly, and Americans generally don't get it quite right. (and might work on imitating the pronunciation).
Wait, what? I think Smearcase was saying that Americans say "ballay" because that's the word, not because they're trying to sound all cultured and shit. Same with ga-rahge'. I've never heard of a working-class salt-of-the-earth American who parked in anything else. What the fuck is a garridge?
186: but I suspect if one spent some time in other regions, class-o-lects would eventually strike one's ear.
Yes. Saying "fer" instead of "for" is a good marker in the most of the midwest. Unless that the Iowans are going to claim that "fer" proper Iowa-talk and unrelated to the English pronounn.
182: we all sound exactly like the engineer on Star Trek. Hope that helps.
What the fuck is a garridge?
Are we playing internet Balderdash?
185: That makes sense, thanks. I suspected that the mom, who didn't speak Italian either, was doing her best to approximate the pronunciation of her actually-from-Italy relatives.
On that subject, anyone reading this from Washington DC, Austin TX, Chapel Hill NC or Chicago should give serious consideration to getting tickets for this
http://www.nationaltheatrescotland.com/content/default.asp?page=home_Black%20Watch%202010
which is probably the best bit of live theatre I've seen in the last five years.
There are other cases where the British pronunciation sounds more French than the American - croissant, restaurant. Probably the truth of 122 showing through.
And voilà!
Pronounced Voyle-uh.
What the fuck is a garridge?
Let alone a 2-step garridge.
re: 191
Someone once told me I sound like John Hannah in 'Four Weddings and a Funeral', which I don't think I do at all. I think they were just going for 'you sound Scottish but not Glaswegian'.
How do brits pronounce 'restaurant'? Do I live on a different planet from all of you?
189: It's not that they're trying to sound cultured, or that they're thinking about the source of the word mostly but (for ballet. probably not for garage), if you asked someone why ballet was pronounced like it is instead of like ball-ett, they'd say "because it's French", and they'd accept a more accurately French pronunciation as more correct than their own.
Are there people that pronounce the "t" in "gourmet"? Well, I do, but when I do it, it's ironic.
195: Huh, you're right on those two.
It should be kept in mind that we've gone through a long period of re-Frenchification of borrowings. It used to be even new borrowings were automatically heavily Anglicized (some of Pope's couplets don't rhyme properly otherwise).
rih-GOTT, mani-GOTT, etc. are common in Trenton. Tasty, too! Poor Trenton.
199: They make an approximation of the French nasal and don't pronounce the 't'.
So far from God, so close to the United States.
Anyone else subvocalizing this thread and dropping all final consonants, or just me?
To be fair, Egypt didn't even have a potato back then.
They did not have a "relationship" to the Potato, they lived inside it.
203: Byron's "Don Juan" -- "Juan" pronounced "Jew-an". That better be right, because it's the only thing I remember from a certain high school English teacher.
Forvo is fun. I'm going to assume all the British commenters sound like this woman. (Check "garage", "stalactite", and "gourmet".) Except ttaM, of course, since we've all heard his mellifluous voice before.
re: 211.last
Indeed, viz: http://www.mcgrattan.f2s.com/audiocomments.mp3
recorded last time the idea of hearing all the commenters came up.
176:
They've made a book out of Big Bunny?
Pronounced jehjoonie, I hope.
204: Poor Trenton.
Flush twice, it's a long way to Camden.
214,15: A good Latin word, barely changed. By the hyper-echt pronunciation rules previously embraced by d2, it should be pronounced "yeh-yune."
214: We did our best to entertain you. We deeply regret that we failed.
216: You went presidential to insult New Jersey?
219: He had been governor of New Jersey - it was a clever allusion. Or so I thought at the time.
Don't bring up Wilson! You might enrage bob.
211 - she's a scouser! Can you search by what attributes you want in a user? I can't find how to if so.
re: 222
yeah, it'd be great if they had the right level of details.
"Yes, I'd like to listen to a middle-aged Brummie smoker with a lisp and a period in childhood spent in Oslo."
After some research I suspect the "restaurant" pronunciation I described is pretty class-based. Maybe less so "croissant," where the Frenchy pronunciation is the only British one listed in Wiktionary and OED.
Except in some of the East Coast cities and parts of the South, it's really hard to draw an inference about class from accent alone
Redneck speech is universal. (Cross's version sounds more specifically southern to me, but I've heard a milder variant all over the West, including Alaska. The northern New England variant is more obviously regional, but not entirely dissimilar.)
224: With a lot of "French" words the Brit pronunciation puts the stress on the second syllable instead of the first. So "gateau" comes out something like GAT-oh. I can't swear but I think I heard "croissant" pronounced in such manner while in the UK.
212: Now I'm trying to think if I have a mental made-up voice for you since, as discussed in an earlier thread, I hear words in my head when I read them. I certainly make up faces for internet people, and then sometimes am quite surprised at their real faces. But I think probably anyone I don't know just gets read aloud in my own voice, in my head.
Yep, emphasis on the croiss, ant pronounced sort of frenchily.
Seriously, if I started talking about my kids having ballAY lessons, I would look like the country's biggest idiot.
I only found out at Christmas that a caff-tee-air is called a french press in North America, from a tub of Tim Horton's coffee.
A talking tub of Tim Horton's coffee!
And since I started this whole thing, I want to stress that in 81 I didn't mean I was amused in the sense of "stupid Brits can't prounounce French!"; ttaM is completely right that the words in question are English words. It just struck me that a country so close to France pronounced words that to me were recognizably French-derived in a much less "Frenchesque" way than the American English pronunciation of the same words, and I found it amusing to think that the explanation was a concerted plan to piss off the French.
227: You mean on the first syllable instead of the second?
229: Oops, I should have said "on the first syllable instead of the second".
232: You should hear the way Brits pronounce "pwnd".
A talking tub of Tim Horton's coffee!
That sounds like some eleaborate Southern colloquialism, akin to "you ain't just whistling Dixie" or "squealing fit to beat Jesus".
"Why, she was more informative than a talking tub of Tim Horton's coffee!"
"Did you notice the thick Southern drawl on that talking tub of Tim Horton's coffee?"
I would love it if everyone offered audio samples like Nattargrammatt's, but I'm always taken aback hearing my own voice recorded, because it seems more veiled and nasal than I hear it. Still, the rest of you, get to work.
238: And maybe we could combine our audio samples into a group musical effort!
Although it will probably just result in Disappointment.
If we cover "I just called to say I love you" then I get to say "Robert" in a dreamy voice.
rih-GOTT, mani-GOTT, etc. are common in Trenton. Tasty, too! Poor Trenton.
rih-GOTT is also standard in Sicily and parts of the southern mainland. Do we have to blame the mob?
237: I thought Tim was from the great white north.
238: Even better, anonymized audio samples, and we can try to match them up. We'll know LB by her relaxed, rural accent.
And really, the British pronunciation of "French" words shouldn't be surprising. The US shares a long border with Mexico and yet for a very high percentage of Americans, the word "burrito" is pronounced something like "rap".
245: That border was a depopulated wasteland for most of U.S. history.
I had no idea that "fillet" had a pronunciation where you pronounce the T. But unlike some, I'm not going to argue about it.
245: Now you're just trying to start a pronunciation burrito battle.
Ned isn't. He's above petty arguments.
So if one is in North America and one wants to fillet something (possibly to make a filet), then that fillet is pronounced the same as filet? Or doesn't one fillet things?
Someday the rest of the world will start adopting American words. We'll see who's laughing then.
17: If you have coffee grounds and no equipment, boiling water in a pot, putting an appropriate amount of grounds in and turning it off and letting it sit for a couple of minutes to settle, and then pouring carefully makes a perfectly reasonable cup of coffee. There's a little grounds in the bottom, but no worse than a lot of french press coffee.
I've never tried that, but it sounds like it could be useful in emergencies. Does the brewing in the pot part matter, or could you just put the coffee grounds in your cup and pour boiling water over it? More or less just like you might brew a cup of tea, if you were using loose tea leaves (and in fact you could use the same sort of strainer you'd use with tea, to avoid the problem of the little grounds in the bottom)?
If that works, though: (1) why don't more people do it this way?, and (2) why did anyone ever invent something called 'instant coffee', which is very close to this same idea, only tastes like shit? The very existence of such a product makes me think there has to be something wrong with the method I'm describing.
And anyway, in Mexico they don't pronounce their Spanish properly.
252: urple, I really think it's best if you stay away from boiling water at all times.
253: It's a concerted effort to piss off the Spanish.
I'm always taken aback hearing my own voice recorded, because it seems more veiled and nasal than I hear it.
This is universal, isn't it? I read once that it's because the vibrations that travel through your skull to your ears when you speak cause your ears to hear the sound at a lower pitch. Or something like that.
But at least most Americans say "tor-TEE-yah" as opposed to the British "tor-TILL-ah".
244 is a fun idea. Someone should organize it.
Does the brewing in the pot part matter, or could you just put the coffee grounds in your cup and pour boiling water over it?
All the grounds (rather than just a bit of them) would still be in your cup, which would be kind of nasty. I think you kind of do need the pot -- you want to stir up the coffee in the water pretty thoroughly, and then let it settle out before you pour it -- I don't think a tea-strainer kind of thing would work. If you didn't have a pot, putting the grounds in another container (another mug, or a measuring cup?), pouring boiling water over them, and pouring from there would work too.
256: I hate it, though. In my head, I sound like Tallulah Bankhead. In reality, I get closer to Olive Oyl.
250: Basically they're both fill-AY, although one sometimes hears the "t" pronounced when folks are talking about deboning something (or, metaphorically, someone).
I say fill-IT when talking about the ribbon things you see tied around the heads and arms of athletes and priestesses, etc. in ancient Greek art.
259: couldn't you just drink through a strainer?
258: I can't. I don't have an internet connection.
Or put a cigarette filter in a straw and suck the coffee through that?
For some reason the 't' is pronounced when you're talking about "fillet brazing" in metalworking.
261: I say FILL-it when talking about my beer glass being empty.
I say "Spillit!" when you're talking about secrets.
I say "Willit?" when we're making predictions.
263: Or just snort the grounds. Nothing to clean that way.
I say "Instillit!" when we're talking about values.
I've seen individual "coffeebags" akin to teabags a few times in hotels. Never tried them though.
Skillet, kill it, window sillit,...I could go on all day. But it's not fun if I'm the only one.
I had no idea that "fillet" had a pronunciation where you pronounce the T.
Rule of thumb: if there's one 'l', don't pronounce the 't', because it's a French loanword; if there are two 'l's, pronounce the 't', because it's an English word.
Remember that English was originally a creole of "Old English" and Norman, the French-like language whose descendants are still spoken in the Channel Islands. As somebody put it, English is a language invented to help Norman squaddies pick up Anglo-Saxon barmaids. At least half the vocabulary is from French.
I've seen individual "coffeebags" akin to teabags a few times in hotels. Never tried them though.
Me too, now that I think about it, but--being unfamiliar with the brewing method under discussion--I'd assumed they were some sort of a fancy variaty of instant shit. (Especially since the same hotel rooms often also provide drip-machines, and the requisite accessories.) So I haven't tried them either.
But at least most Americans say "tor-TEE-yah" as opposed to the British "tor-TILL-ah".
Most English people say "tor-TEEL-yuh" and and mean omelet, because they have been to Spain, but have no fucking idea what Mexican sounds like and don't like cornmeal chapattis.
Chapati is a loanword from India. Chapatti is an English word pronounced "Fill-it".
Cornmeal chapattis are fucking delicious.
Most English people say "tor-TEEL-yuh"
Which isn't how Mexicans or Spaniards say it.
and mean omelet
This is clearly also part of the British plot to annoy France. A tortilla is indeed made with eggs, but ce n'est pas une omelette.
in Mexico they don't pronounce their Spanish properly
There's no need to be a snob about it. That's just the guey they talk.
Which isn't how Mexicans or Spaniards say it.
Of course not, it's a rough approximation to the Spanish, like 'feelay' is a rough approximation to filet. Una tortilla a la Francesa is indeed une omelette.
In West Africa we got so homesick for Mexican food, the we brought black beans and cumin in our luggage and made our own flour tortillas (which were great, but we haven't bothered to make them since coming back). Due to a mix up and the (Lebanese owned) grocery store, our tortillas tended to include a potion of chapati flour.
286. I was going to ask what you could heal with chapatti flour and a prayer to Chango.
Of course not, it's a rough approximation to the Spanish
Yes, but a worse approximation than the American version, is all I'm saying.
Una tortilla a la Francesa is indeed une omelette.
Mai oui, but a tortilla Española is not.
286: On more than one occasion I packed masa harina in my luggage when returning to China so as to be able to make corn tortillas and tamales while there. Cumin was available via the Uighur population, and there was a variety of mung bean that served as an acceptable substitute for pinto beans. Everything else (tomatoes, peppers, avocados cilantro/coriander, etc) was readily available. I also made flour tortillas on a fairly regular basis as the only bread-like product to be found was sweet white sandwich bread and I didn't have an oven.
I never thought to try putting flour in a funnel and pouring hot water through it.
290: You used to live in China?
but a worse approximation than the American version, is all I'm saying.
True. Anglophones of all stripes have a lot of trouble with the Castillian 'll' (and the Welsh one too, which is different).
And yes, tortilla Española, and frittata are presumably evolved from 'eggah', given that Spain was occupied by Maghrebis for a few centuries.
Yeah, the produce was great, and every other spice was available, thanks in large part to the Indian importers, but for some reason not cumin. We tried using adzuki or cow peas/black-eyed peas in place of black beans, but it's not the same.
Lavash: also not a substitute for tortillas.
Lavash is an even worse substitute for brake fluid.
295. I'm surprised the Indian importers weren't selling cumin; it's pretty staple in India.
292: Nope. I could get raw sheeps milk, and made ricotta once or twice, which was a decent substitute for queso fresco.
Actually now that I think about it, I couldn't get dried chiles other than the small really hot ones. So I also packed in ancho and pasilla chiles along with the masa.
298: I know, though it's entirely possible that they imported it, but just chose not to sell it in any of the groceries.
Some things I import for money. Cumin importing is just a hobby.
301: Maybe you just weren't pronouncing it correctly.
Indians in Ghana are a significant but small and tightly knit/insular group. They represent a quite small segment of grocery store patrons, most of whom are Levantines, Westerners and some wealthy Ghanaians. Plus the items that are stocked at any given moment seem ... capricious. An efficient market, it isn't. So I could easily see cumin being passed around between families, but not stocked for sale during the particular 18 months I was looking for it.
303:
I tried pronouncing it "core-ee-AHN-der," but that just got me cilantro.
An efficient market, it isn't.
Stop making fun of me!
(Now if only I'd thought to get some milk.)
You could use the five dollars you found.
It's certainly possible, I was mostly just scanning shelves for it.
Dead thread by now, but
238: I would love it if everyone offered audio samples like Nattargrammatt's, but I'm always taken aback hearing my own voice recorded, because it seems more veiled and nasal than I hear it. Still, the rest of you, get to work.
is interesting! As is 244. I'm not sure I have the ability to record my voice into .mp3 (or whatever) format, though. All I can think is that I'd have to speak on the phone to someone who could record it. Or something.
If ttaM is around later, or if anyone else remembers: he had linked to other recordings of himself (reading Burns?) and I'd been fascinated -- mellifluous indeed -- but failed to save or note the link.
313: Here, and then see also 270, 282, and 288 in the same thread.
Thank you! Yes, the merry / mary / marry distinction. Etc. Thanks, essear.
Words like ballet have outlived their conscious Frenchness for most any American speaker. There's no attempt there to pronounce a word as it would be in French. It just was taken into American English this way before the birth of any living speaker.
Yes. The idea that Americans are consciously trying to sound French and "classy" just sounds wrong to me.
And I have to wonder about the possible influence of the French presence in North America, which dates back to the 16th century. Not only did France once control vast areas of what are now Canada and the US; but French speakers (from New Brunswick and Quebec, e.g.) later emigrated to America (to Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc) in significant numbers in the 19th and early 20th centuries. And then there's that whole Louisiana thing.
In other words, when it comes to North American English pronunciation of French loan words, the story is probably different than that of British English pronunciation, because of the more immediate and much more recent French influence.
re: 313/314
Yeah, but the Burns recording is poor [audio quality and reading] because I was recording it somewhere not very private and had to semi-whisper into an MP3 player's mic so as not to disturb others. Still, it's nice people like it.
the Burns recording is poor [audio quality and reading] because I was recording it somewhere not very private
Several possibilities come to mind.
re: 319
Heh. In the smallest room.
Yes, I can imagine that hearing "But happier, mouse, art thou than me, The present only touches thee..." drifting over the wall from the next cubicle could disturb some people.
Though that is of course far from the most disturbing Burns poem to hear while in the lavatory.
http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com/poetry/poets/nine.html
322: If anyone raised an eyebrow, you could just explain that you have a wide stanza.
323: I thought the signal was to tap your foot? Nobody can see your eyebrows through the stall wall.
If you stand on the seat and poke your head above the divider, you're technically raising an eyebrow.